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Subject: Re: Should #nil be equal? to '()?
From: Leo Prikler <leo.prikler@HIDDEN>
To: Taylan Kammer <taylan.kammer@HIDDEN>, 48425 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 20:31:12 +0200
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Hi Taylan,
after a lengthy discussion in IRC, you invited me to reply to this bug
report, so that's what I'm doing. I will make short references to that
discussion, but I won't rehash all of it. Anyone who is interested in
reading it in all detail, should inspect the public logs:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guile/2021-06-24.log#170309
Am Freitag, den 14.05.2021, 21:36 +0200 schrieb Taylan Kammer:
> I believe it would be better if #nil were equal? to ().
>
> It would keep *not* being equal? to #f and as such not disturb the
> property of transitiveness.
I don't think there's a good reason to prefer one of this equal?ity
over the other – it all comes down to personal preference if at all.
> Making #nil and () be equal? would be a lot more intuitive since
> they both represent the empty list, and since equal? is commonly
> used to test the equality of lists. Meeting this expectation would
> probably prevent a common type of unexpected behavior where a list
> coming from Elisp code is not equal? to a list coming from Scheme
> code, even though they have the same contents.
I don't think, that this is a good reason to make them equal? We've
had our lengthy discussion on the philosophy of equality, which I'm
going to cut short here, as that's not the point you're making, but for
the protocol's sake, #nil and '() are not philosophically equal?
Regarding intuitiveness, I think this actually does more harm than
good. I could argue that #nil be equal? to #f on the grounds of
intuitiveness, but more importantly
(if (equal? a b) (equal? (if a #t #f) (if b #t #f)))
should only ever return #t or *unspecified*, never #f (insert '() and
#nil as a and b).
Finally on the point of making equal?ity work that way for the sake of
interoperability with other Lisp dialects such as Emacs Lisp or
Clojure, this assumes that this style of comparison through equal? is
"good Scheme", when I'd argue, that it is in fact not. Pattern
matching and dedicated comparison operators are much saner alternatives
most of the time.
There are multiple ways of getting around the issue of #nil, '() and #f
not being equal? to each other. The first would be to define an equal-
modulo-nil? procedure, which returns #t if both arguments are nil?
Another, that would implement your style, would be the following:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
;; Don't forget to test this when actually using it
(define my-equal?
(match-lambda*
((() ()) #t) ;; match '() against #nil
(((a . as) (b . bs))
(and (my-equal? a b) ;; recurse into the first sub-element
(list= my-equal? as bs))) ;; recurse into the others
((a b) (equal? a b)))) ;; fall back to base equal?
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
Of course, you can also take the equal? you wrote for this patch and
include it in your own library, but be sure to document it so as to not
confuse the readers of your code :)
Note, that any such implementations will come with certain limitations,
but I suppose that's what you'd want out of them.
> Attached is a patch to realize the change. Note that it increases
> the size of compiled code that uses equal?. I don't know if this
> represents a problem or not.
I personally don't think bytecode optimizations are something to
consider if one can achieve correctness on the other hand, but this
solution has the downside of being both wrong (philosophically, as
discussed above and in IRC) and heavier to compute. That's not
something a standard library should aim for :P
Regards,
Leo
bug-guile@HIDDEN:bug#48425; Package guile.
Full text available.Taylan Kammer <taylan.kammer@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
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[109.90.125.150]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id qu23sm4076316ejb.1.2021.05.14.12.36.40 for <bug-guile@HIDDEN> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 May 2021 12:36:40 -0700 (PDT) To: bug-guile@HIDDEN From: Taylan Kammer <taylan.kammer@HIDDEN> Subject: Should #nil be equal? to '()? Message-ID: <aa23e415-6395-e0a8-6a51-77b249a0a8d0@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 21:36:39 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D4E6815BA424596B2131A0D9" Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::52c; envelope-from=taylan.kammer@HIDDEN; helo=mail-ed1-x52c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D4E6815BA424596B2131A0D9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe it would be better if #nil were equal? to (). It would keep *not* being equal? to #f and as such not disturb the property of transitiveness. Making #nil and () be equal? would be a lot more intuitive since they both represent the empty list, and since equal? is commonly used to test the equality of lists. Meeting this expectation would probably prevent a common type of unexpected behavior where a list coming from Elisp code is not equal? to a list coming from Scheme code, even though they have the same contents. Attached is a patch to realize the change. Note that it increases the size of compiled code that uses equal?. I don't know if this represents a problem or not. Before patch: scheme@(guile-user)> ,disassemble (lambda (x y) (equal? x y)) Disassembly of #<procedure 55dd585a0c58 at <unknown port>:1:13 (x y)> at #x55dd585a0ad4: 0 (instrument-entry 131) at (unknown file):1:13 2 (assert-nargs-ee/locals 3 0) ;; 3 slots (2 args) 3 (eq? 1 0) at (unknown file):1:27 4 (je 29) ;; -> L4 5 (immediate-tag=? 1 7 0) ;; heap-object? 7 (jne 22) ;; -> L3 8 (immediate-tag=? 0 7 0) ;; heap-object? 10 (jne 15) ;; -> L2 11 (static-ref 2 96) ;; #f 13 (immediate-tag=? 2 7 0) ;; heap-object? 15 (je 7) ;; -> L1 16 (call-scm<-scmn-scmn 2 103 107 113) 20 (static-set! 2 87) ;; #f L1: 22 (scm-ref/immediate 2 2 1) 23 (handle-interrupts) 24 (tail-call) L2: 25 (make-immediate 2 4) ;; #f 26 (reset-frame 1) ;; 1 slot 27 (handle-interrupts) 28 (return-values) L3: 29 (make-immediate 2 4) ;; #f 30 (reset-frame 1) ;; 1 slot 31 (handle-interrupts) 32 (return-values) L4: 33 (make-immediate 2 1028) ;; #t 34 (reset-frame 1) ;; 1 slot 35 (handle-interrupts) 36 (return-values) After patch: scheme@(guile-user)> ,disassemble (lambda (x y) (equal? x y)) Disassembly of #<procedure 55b741d3ad50 at <unknown port>:8:13 (x y)> at #x55b741d3ab94: 0 (instrument-entry 145) at (unknown file):8:13 2 (assert-nargs-ee/locals 3 0) ;; 3 slots (2 args) 3 (eq? 1 0) at (unknown file):8:27 4 (je 43) ;; -> L6 5 (immediate-tag=? 1 3583 260) ;; null? 7 (jne 12) ;; -> L2 8 (immediate-tag=? 0 3583 260) ;; null? 10 (je 5) ;; -> L1 11 (make-immediate 2 4) ;; #f 12 (reset-frame 1) ;; 1 slot 13 (handle-interrupts) 14 (return-values) L1: 15 (make-immediate 2 1028) ;; #t 16 (reset-frame 1) ;; 1 slot 17 (handle-interrupts) 18 (return-values) L2: 19 (immediate-tag=? 1 7 0) ;; heap-object? 21 (jne 22) ;; -> L5 22 (immediate-tag=? 0 7 0) ;; heap-object? 24 (jne 15) ;; -> L4 25 (static-ref 2 96) ;; #f 27 (immediate-tag=? 2 7 0) ;; heap-object? 29 (je 7) ;; -> L3 30 (call-scm<-scmn-scmn 2 103 107 113) 34 (static-set! 2 87) ;; #f L3: 36 (scm-ref/immediate 2 2 1) 37 (handle-interrupts) 38 (tail-call) L4: 39 (make-immediate 2 4) ;; #f 40 (reset-frame 1) ;; 1 slot 41 (handle-interrupts) 42 (return-values) L5: 43 (make-immediate 2 4) ;; #f 44 (reset-frame 1) ;; 1 slot 45 (handle-interrupts) 46 (return-values) L6: 47 (make-immediate 2 1028) ;; #t 48 (reset-frame 1) ;; 1 slot 49 (handle-interrupts) 50 (return-values) - Taylan --------------D4E6815BA424596B2131A0D9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="0001-Make-nil-and-equal-as-per-equal.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-Make-nil-and-equal-as-per-equal.patch" RnJvbSA0YWQyMGU3NjBjNDc0NWVhMjdiYzgzYTIxZDEyYThlZjg0Yzg3NDQ1IE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBUYXlsYW4gS2FtbWVyIDx0YXlsYW4ua2FtbWVyQGdt YWlsLmNvbT4KRGF0ZTogRnJpLCAxNCBNYXkgMjAyMSAxODozNToxMiArMDIwMApTdWJqZWN0 OiBbUEFUQ0hdIE1ha2UgI25pbCBhbmQgKCkgZXF1YWwgYXMgcGVyIGVxdWFsPy4KCiogbGli Z3VpbGUvZXEuYyAoc2NtX2VxdWFsX3ApOiBBZGQgY2hlY2sgdG8gc2VlIGlmIGJvdGggYXJn 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--------------D4E6815BA424596B2131A0D9--
Taylan Kammer <taylan.kammer@HIDDEN>:bug-guile@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-guile@HIDDEN:bug#48425; Package guile.
Full text available.
GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd,
1994-97 Ian Jackson.