GNU bug report logs - #48435
[PATCH] Start enabling substitutes from bayfront.

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Package: guix-patches; Reported by: Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN>; Keywords: patch; dated Sat, 15 May 2021 10:09:01 UTC; Maintainer for guix-patches is guix-patches@HIDDEN.

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From: Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: Bringing substitutes from the Guix Build Coordinator to users
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Mathieu Othacehe <othacehe@HIDDEN> writes:

> Hey Chris,
>
>> That sounds sensible. On the specific name, given this is just about
>> substitutes, and at least in my opinion has nothing to do with
>> continuous integration, maybe picking just another word would avoid
>> thinking too much, it could be bordeaux, or hippo, or anything
>> really. As you say, stability and not being tied to a particular machine
>> is the important thing.
>
> The substitutes coverage is one indicator to take into account but there
> are many others. For instance, the evaluation speed, the failed
> evaluation count, the average evaluation builds completion time, the
> availability of the connected build machines between other things.

Indeed, and I'm aware that the Guix Data Service, which performs a
similar function to the evaluations in Cuirass, is much slower.

> Deploying a solution that builds substitutes is fine, but as soon as it
> is deployed and accessible to all Guix users, the system administrators
> will have to monitor it and maintain it in the long run.
>
> Having two heterogeneous build infrastructures on two sets of machines,
> providing different metrics will make the update and maintenance of
> those machines harder.
>
> I hear your point about K-out-of-N policy and it also makes sense to
> me. However, we should maybe consider doing it using two similar
> infrastructures.

Indeed. The reality though is that two different approaches have been in
development now for a little over a year, and this is a reflection of
that.

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Information forwarded to guix-patches@HIDDEN:
bug#48435; Package guix-patches. Full text available.

Message received at 48435 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Mathieu Othacehe <othacehe@HIDDEN>
To: Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: Bringing substitutes from the Guix Build Coordinator to users
References: <878s4ye116.fsf@HIDDEN> <87lf8bbzbl.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Hey Chris,

> That sounds sensible. On the specific name, given this is just about
> substitutes, and at least in my opinion has nothing to do with
> continuous integration, maybe picking just another word would avoid
> thinking too much, it could be bordeaux, or hippo, or anything
> really. As you say, stability and not being tied to a particular machine
> is the important thing.

The substitutes coverage is one indicator to take into account but there
are many others. For instance, the evaluation speed, the failed
evaluation count, the average evaluation builds completion time, the
availability of the connected build machines between other things.

Deploying a solution that builds substitutes is fine, but as soon as it
is deployed and accessible to all Guix users, the system administrators
will have to monitor it and maintain it in the long run.

Having two heterogeneous build infrastructures on two sets of machines,
providing different metrics will make the update and maintenance of
those machines harder.

I hear your point about K-out-of-N policy and it also makes sense to
me. However, we should maybe consider doing it using two similar
infrastructures.

Thanks,

Mathieu




Information forwarded to guix-patches@HIDDEN:
bug#48435; Package guix-patches. Full text available.

Message received at 48435 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: Bringing substitutes from the Guix Build Coordinator to users
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Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> writes:

> Hello!
>
> Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN> skribis:
>
>> Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN> writes:
>>
>>> Is there still a path to bring some of these benefits to users, and if
>>> so, what things need doing?
>
> [...]
>
>> Obviously just having the substitutes doesn't magically get them to
>> users, so I've started looking in to the changes to start making that
>> happen. Adding the signing key and changing the defaults in a few places
>> seems like a good step forward [1].
>>
>> 1: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/48435
>>
>> I want to push on with this within the next couple of weeks, mostly so I
>> can shift focus to Outreachy and the security related tooling work, but
>> also because I still think this will be a good step forward in terms of
>> substitute availability for users. It's been over a year now since
>> implementation started, so it would be good to actually make a positive
>> difference.
>
> I=E2=80=99m fine with distributing an extra signing key alongside that of
> ci.guix.gnu.org.

Great.

> I=E2=80=99m unsure about having two substitute URLs by default since it a=
dds a
> bit of overhead, though that overhead is only upon cache misses (I have
> that setup on my laptop actually).

All of this work has been built on the assumption that it's possible to
do better in providing substitutes, and anecdotally from the data I've
seen over the last year, that should be possible, even with the limited
hardware (compared to ci.guix.gnu.org) connected to bayfront.

So yes, that's a valid concern, but if all the addition of bayfront does
is make users wait a little longer because of cache misses, it's a sign
that the whole endeavour is not working out.

> It=E2=80=99s also a one-way change: people are likely to keep the defaults
> =E2=80=9Cforever=E2=80=9D.  So we can=E2=80=99t just =E2=80=9Cexperiment=
=E2=80=9D and change our mind later.
> That means we should at least have a DNS entry that=E2=80=99s not tied to=
 a
> particular machine, like ci2.guix.gnu.org or whatever.

That sounds sensible. On the specific name, given this is just about
substitutes, and at least in my opinion has nothing to do with
continuous integration, maybe picking just another word would avoid
thinking too much, it could be bordeaux, or hippo, or anything
really. As you say, stability and not being tied to a particular machine
is the important thing.

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: Bringing substitutes from the Guix Build Coordinator to users
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Hello!

Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN> skribis:

> Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> Is there still a path to bring some of these benefits to users, and if
>> so, what things need doing?

[...]

> Obviously just having the substitutes doesn't magically get them to
> users, so I've started looking in to the changes to start making that
> happen. Adding the signing key and changing the defaults in a few places
> seems like a good step forward [1].
>
> 1: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/48435
>
> I want to push on with this within the next couple of weeks, mostly so I
> can shift focus to Outreachy and the security related tooling work, but
> also because I still think this will be a good step forward in terms of
> substitute availability for users. It's been over a year now since
> implementation started, so it would be good to actually make a positive
> difference.

I=E2=80=99m fine with distributing an extra signing key alongside that of
ci.guix.gnu.org.

I=E2=80=99m unsure about having two substitute URLs by default since it add=
s a
bit of overhead, though that overhead is only upon cache misses (I have
that setup on my laptop actually).

It=E2=80=99s also a one-way change: people are likely to keep the defaults
=E2=80=9Cforever=E2=80=9D.  So we can=E2=80=99t just =E2=80=9Cexperiment=E2=
=80=9D and change our mind later.
That means we should at least have a DNS entry that=E2=80=99s not tied to a
particular machine, like ci2.guix.gnu.org or whatever.

WDYT?

Now, what would be nice is to have a second build farm with the
K-out-of-N policy you mention in mind.

> There's a few issues still on my mind. Even though the substitute
> availability percentages are good when compared to ci.guix.gnu.org, as
> bayfront has much less compute power connected, it might not keep up as
> well when big sets of changes are merged. I think that's just an
> argument for using the build coordinator on berlin and the connected
> machines though.

As much as I=E2=80=99d have preferred a single solution in this area, fueli=
ng
competition between the Coordinator and Cuirass and their access to
official infrastructure doesn=E2=80=99t seem like a viable path to me.

I think the primary value in having a second build farm would be
reproducibility and doing away with the single point of failure.
Overall substitute coverage probably wouldn=E2=80=99t change much.

I agree with Mathieu that maintaining it has a cost, but maybe we can
try.

I realize I=E2=80=99m asking questions rather than providing answers, which=
 may
be because I don=E2=80=99t see a clear path ahead.  :-)

Thanks!

Ludo=E2=80=99.




Information forwarded to guix-patches@HIDDEN:
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Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN> writes:

> Is there still a path to bring some of these benefits to users, and if
> so, what things need doing?

It's been a few weeks now, so to summarise, I think only one path
emerged, and that is to get substitutes from bayfront to users.

Bayfront was already running the Guix Build Coordinator (although only
for the last month), and it's now caught up to the point where I'm
seeing similar or better substitute availability percentages for
x86_64-linux (and powerpc64le-linux) when compared to
ci.guix.gnu.org. It's also building i686-linux and aarch64-linux things,
but they're still catching up.

Obviously just having the substitutes doesn't magically get them to
users, so I've started looking in to the changes to start making that
happen. Adding the signing key and changing the defaults in a few places
seems like a good step forward [1].

1: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/48435

I want to push on with this within the next couple of weeks, mostly so I
can shift focus to Outreachy and the security related tooling work, but
also because I still think this will be a good step forward in terms of
substitute availability for users. It's been over a year now since
implementation started, so it would be good to actually make a positive
difference.

There's a few issues still on my mind. Even though the substitute
availability percentages are good when compared to ci.guix.gnu.org, as
bayfront has much less compute power connected, it might not keep up as
well when big sets of changes are merged. I think that's just an
argument for using the build coordinator on berlin and the connected
machines though.

The other thing in comparison to ci.guix.gnu.org is that bayfront only
has ~4TB of storage rather than ~37TB, and given that currently none of
the generated nars are deleted, that will need thinking about in a few
months to avoid running out of space. I've had some plans around this
for a while [1], but they still require implementing.

1: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2021-02/msg00104.html

Apart from merging the changes in [1], I guess a blog post might be
useful. Have I missed anything?

Chris

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To: Mathieu Othacehe <othacehe@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: [bug#48435] [PATCH] Start enabling substitutes from bayfront.
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Mathieu Othacehe <othacehe@HIDDEN> writes:

> Hello Chris,
>
>> +  guix_substitute_urls=3D"https://ci.guix.gnu.org https://bayfront.guix=
.gnu.org"
>
> What is the rationale behind adding a new substitution server? I feel
> like having two substitute servers will make things more complex in term
> of maintenance.
>
> Having both servers compute the same set of substitutes is also not
> great from an energetic and resource saving point of view.

Hey,

I should have probably written a cover letter, but this patch is me
starting to try and work out the changes involved in getting substitutes
from bayfront to general Guix users, but the discussion has been
happening in this thread [1].

1: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2021-05/msg00241.html

Bayfront has been around for a while, and has been serving substitutes,
although I'm not sure it's provided much value to users in that time. I
hope that can change with switching to using the Guix Build Coordinator
though, that happened around a month ago, and it's slowly building
things and catching up.

I guess there's a greater need to maintain it if starts getting used by
more users, so I do think the maintenance involved is something to
consider.

Personally, I see the arguments for having multiple substitute servers
getting stronger over time. Multiple independent substitute servers
would provide more reliability than a single source, as well as enabling
things like K of N trust in substitutes [2].

2: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2020-06/msg00179.html

In terms of energy and resources, currently there are 5 machines in use,
most of which were mostly idle before being put to use building things
for substitutes. While having them build things does use more power than
having them idle, I think the value provided, even if that's providing
exactly the same bytes as ci.guix.gnu.org, is worth the cost, for the
reasons I give above.

Thanks,

Chris

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Hello Chris,

> +  guix_substitute_urls="https://ci.guix.gnu.org https://bayfront.guix.gnu.org"

What is the rationale behind adding a new substitution server? I feel
like having two substitute servers will make things more complex in term
of maintenance.

Having both servers compute the same set of substitutes is also not
great from an energetic and resource saving point of view.

Thanks,

Mathieu




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In addition to substitutes from ci.guix.gnu.org.  There are more changes that
can be made in the future, but these changes seem like a good start.

* etc/substitutes/bayfront.guix.gnu.org.pub: New file.
* Makefile.am (dist_pkgdata_DATA): Add it.
* config-daemon.ac (guix_substitute_urls): Add https://bayfront.guix.gnu.org.
* guix/scripts/substitute.scm (%default-substitute-urls): Add
http://bayfront.guix.gnu.org.
* guix/store.scm (%default-substitute-urls): Add bayfront.guix.gnu.org.
---
 Makefile.am                               | 3 ++-
 config-daemon.ac                          | 2 +-
 etc/substitutes/bayfront.guix.gnu.org.pub | 6 ++++++
 guix/scripts/substitute.scm               | 3 ++-
 guix/store.scm                            | 3 ++-
 5 files changed, 13 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)
 create mode 100644 etc/substitutes/bayfront.guix.gnu.org.pub

diff --git a/Makefile.am b/Makefile.am
index 4cbef5a6e6..bad17e59fd 100644
--- a/Makefile.am
+++ b/Makefile.am
@@ -584,7 +584,8 @@ check-system: $(GOBJECTS)
 dist_pkgdata_DATA =				\
   etc/substitutes/berlin.guix.gnu.org.pub	\
   etc/substitutes/ci.guix.gnu.org.pub		\
-  etc/substitutes/ci.guix.info.pub
+  etc/substitutes/ci.guix.info.pub		\
+  etc/substitutes/bayfront.guix.gnu.org.pub
 
 # Bash completion file.
 dist_bashcompletion_DATA = etc/completion/bash/guix	\
diff --git a/config-daemon.ac b/config-daemon.ac
index 85caee269b..ee2ffbff42 100644
--- a/config-daemon.ac
+++ b/config-daemon.ac
@@ -117,7 +117,7 @@ if test "x$guix_build_daemon" = "xyes"; then
 
   dnl Determine the appropriate default list of substitute URLs (GnuTLS
   dnl is required so we can default to 'https'.)
-  guix_substitute_urls="https://ci.guix.gnu.org"
+  guix_substitute_urls="https://ci.guix.gnu.org https://bayfront.guix.gnu.org"
 
   AC_MSG_CHECKING([for default substitute URLs])
   AC_MSG_RESULT([$guix_substitute_urls])
diff --git a/etc/substitutes/bayfront.guix.gnu.org.pub b/etc/substitutes/bayfront.guix.gnu.org.pub
new file mode 100644
index 0000000000..0092301e5a
--- /dev/null
+++ b/etc/substitutes/bayfront.guix.gnu.org.pub
@@ -0,0 +1,6 @@
+(public-key 
+ (ecc 
+  (curve Ed25519)
+  (q #7D602902D3A2DBB83F8A0FB98602A754C5493B0B778C8D1DD4E0F41DE14DE34F#)
+  )
+ )
diff --git a/guix/scripts/substitute.scm b/guix/scripts/substitute.scm
index 8e4eae00b3..2fa2b1e219 100755
--- a/guix/scripts/substitute.scm
+++ b/guix/scripts/substitute.scm
@@ -638,7 +638,8 @@ found."
     (#f
      ;; This can only happen when this script is not invoked by the
      ;; daemon.
-     '("http://ci.guix.gnu.org"))))
+     '("http://ci.guix.gnu.org"
+       "http://bayfront.guix.gnu.org"))))
 
 ;; In order to prevent using large number of discovered local substitute
 ;; servers, limit the local substitute urls list size.
diff --git a/guix/store.scm b/guix/store.scm
index 9d706ae590..8fca37283f 100644
--- a/guix/store.scm
+++ b/guix/store.scm
@@ -783,7 +783,8 @@ encoding conversion errors."
   (map (if (false-if-exception (resolve-interface '(gnutls)))
            (cut string-append "https://" <>)
            (cut string-append "http://" <>))
-       '("ci.guix.gnu.org")))
+       '("ci.guix.gnu.org"
+         "bayfront.guix.gnu.org")))
 
 (define (current-user-name)
   "Return the name of the calling user."
-- 
2.30.1





Acknowledgement sent to Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to guix-patches@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to guix-patches@HIDDEN:
bug#48435; Package guix-patches. Full text available.
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Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.