GNU bug report logs - #48764
mini-buffer completion

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: mini-buffer completion
Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 22:16:26 +0200

`completing-read' prompts a user to select from a set of candidates, providing
mini-buffer completion to narrow and complete the user input.

But the mini-buffer does not provide the user with any indication that he can use
the "up" and "down" keys to navigate a list of settings.  It would be beneficial to
introduce some kind of glyph or indicator in the mini-buffer to make the user aware
that arrow keys can be used, and be described in the manual.

    (if current-prefix-arg
	(let* ( ($major-mode
		   '("org-mode" "texinfo-mode" "emacs-lisp-mode"
		     "lisp-mode" "f90-mode"))
	        ($mode (completing-read "Mode: " $major-mode
			 nil t nil 'ziggurat-bufr-history)) )
	  (funcall (intern $mode)))
      (funcall (intern (or mode "org-mode"))))))

Message #8 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
Cc: 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2021 17:39:55 +0200

jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:

> But the mini-buffer does not provide the user with any indication that
> he can use the "up" and "down" keys to navigate a list of settings.
> It would be beneficial to introduce some kind of glyph or indicator in
> the mini-buffer to make the user aware that arrow keys can be used,
> and be described in the manual.

It should not come as a surprise that basic navigation keys allow you to
navigate basically.

Closing.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #15 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 17:54:51 +0200

How about mini-buffer entries that require user writing a string.  How would
a user figure out what to do?

Is there any information about basic navigation keys for mini-buffer input in the manual?

> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2021 at 3:39 AM
> From: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
> Cc: 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
>
> jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:
>
> > But the mini-buffer does not provide the user with any indication that
> > he can use the "up" and "down" keys to navigate a list of settings.
> > It would be beneficial to introduce some kind of glyph or indicator in
> > the mini-buffer to make the user aware that arrow keys can be used,
> > and be described in the manual.
>
> It should not come as a surprise that basic navigation keys allow you to
> navigate basically.
>
> Closing.
>
> --
> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
>    bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
>

Message #18 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, "jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com"
 <jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com>
Cc: "48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 16:00:47 +0000

> > But the mini-buffer does not provide the user with any indication that
> > he can use the "up" and "down" keys to navigate a list of settings.
> > It would be beneficial to introduce some kind of glyph or indicator in
> > the mini-buffer to make the user aware that arrow keys can be used,
> > and be described in the manual.
> 
> It should not come as a surprise that basic navigation keys allow you to
> navigate basically.
> 
> Closing.

I wouldn't argue that the minibuffer itself needs to
provide any such indication.  (Some doc should perhaps
mention it, however.)  I agree with you about that.

But the reply that users should expect "basic navigation
keys" to "navigate basically" presents things in a
distorted way.

Basic navigation keys generally do work in the basic,
i.e., ordinary way in the minibuffer.  But <up> and
<down> do NOT do so.  Their normal/basic behavior is
to move up or down a line of text.  They _could_ do that
in the minibuffer, but they don't.  Likewise, `C-n' and
`C-p'.

So while I tend to agree that the minibuffer itself
need not advertise what <up> and <down> do, the argument
that you gave is specious, IMO.  In fact, it argues the
opposite: it argues that <up> and <down> (and `C-[n|p]')
should "allow you to navigate basically", i.e., move up
and down a line of minibuffer text.

Not to mention that _cycling_ candidates is not a basic
navigation behavior.  It's not a navigation behavior at
all.  It doesn't move point or the mouse pointer, doesn't
move focus, or do any of the things one might think of as
"basic navigation" behavior.

Message #21 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
 "48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: [External] : bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 18:06:46 +0200

> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2021 at 4:00 AM
> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> To: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi <at> gnus.org>, "jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com" <jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com>
> Cc: "48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
>
> > > But the mini-buffer does not provide the user with any indication that
> > > he can use the "up" and "down" keys to navigate a list of settings.
> > > It would be beneficial to introduce some kind of glyph or indicator in
> > > the mini-buffer to make the user aware that arrow keys can be used,
> > > and be described in the manual.
> >
> > It should not come as a surprise that basic navigation keys allow you to
> > navigate basically.
> >
> > Closing.
>
> I wouldn't argue that the minibuffer itself needs to
> provide any such indication.  (Some doc should perhaps
> mention it, however.)  I agree with you about that.
>
> But the reply that users should expect "basic navigation
> keys" to "navigate basically" presents things in a
> distorted way.

In an extremely distorted way.  I try to get to developer's head about it, yet few
are capable of listening.

> Basic navigation keys generally do work in the basic,
> i.e., ordinary way in the minibuffer.  But <up> and
> <down> do NOT do so.  Their normal/basic behavior is
> to move up or down a line of text.  They _could_ do that
> in the minibuffer, but they don't.  Likewise, `C-n' and
> `C-p'.
>
> So while I tend to agree that the minibuffer itself
> need not advertise what <up> and <down> do, the argument
> that you gave is specious, IMO.  In fact, it argues the
> opposite: it argues that <up> and <down> (and `C-[n|p]')
> should "allow you to navigate basically", i.e., move up
> and down a line of minibuffer text.
>
> Not to mention that _cycling_ candidates is not a basic
> navigation behavior.  It's not a navigation behavior at
> all.  It doesn't move point or the mouse pointer, doesn't
> move focus, or do any of the things one might think of as
> "basic navigation" behavior.
>

Message #24 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:46:39 +0100

jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:

> How about mini-buffer entries that require user writing a string.  How would
> a user figure out what to do?
>
> Is there any information about basic navigation keys for mini-buffer input in the manual?

Does the node (info "(emacs) Minibuffer History")[1] in the Emacs manual
count?  FWIW, it can be found through index entries such as 'minibuffer
history', 'M-n (minibuffer history)', 'DOWN (minibuffer history)', etc.

For more details on minibuffer keymaps there's also
(info "(emacs) Minibuffer Maps")[2], found e.g. via the index entry
'C-h r i minibuffer key TAB RET'.

[1]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-History.html
[2]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-Maps.html

HTH,

-- 
Basil

Message #27 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 23:00:46 +0200

> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2021 at 8:46 AM
> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
> To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
> Cc: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
>
> jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:
>
> > How about mini-buffer entries that require user writing a string.  How would
> > a user figure out what to do?
> >
> > Is there any information about basic navigation keys for mini-buffer input in the manual?
>
> Does the node (info "(emacs) Minibuffer History")[1] in the Emacs manual
> count?  FWIW, it can be found through index entries such as 'minibuffer
> history', 'M-n (minibuffer history)', 'DOWN (minibuffer history)', etc.

I would like to see some indication of the type of input it requires.
Perhaps that information can go on the mode-line (for instance some type
of designated coloured mouse button for mini-buffer information).

> For more details on minibuffer keymaps there's also
> (info "(emacs) Minibuffer Maps")[2], found e.g. via the index entry
> 'C-h r i minibuffer key TAB RET'.
>
> [1]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-History.html
> [2]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-Maps.html
>
> HTH,
>
> --
> Basil
>

Message #30 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 23:04:05 +0200

> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2021 at 8:46 AM
> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
> To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
> Cc: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
>
> jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:
>
> > How about mini-buffer entries that require user writing a string.  How would
> > a user figure out what to do?
> >
> > Is there any information about basic navigation keys for mini-buffer input in the manual?
>
> Does the node (info "(emacs) Minibuffer History")[1] in the Emacs manual
> count?  FWIW, it can be found through index entries such as 'minibuffer
> history', 'M-n (minibuffer history)', 'DOWN (minibuffer history)', etc.

We are not really talking about mini-buffer history, but mini-buffer input.

> For more details on minibuffer keymaps there's also
> (info "(emacs) Minibuffer Maps")[2], found e.g. via the index entry
> 'C-h r i minibuffer key TAB RET'.
>
> [1]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-History.html
> [2]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-Maps.html
>
> HTH,
>
> --
> Basil
>
>
>
>

Message #33 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>, "jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com"
 <jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
 "48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 21:31:09 +0000

> > Is there any information about basic navigation keys
> > for mini-buffer input in the manual?
> 
> Does the node (info "(emacs) Minibuffer History")[1] in the Emacs manual
> count?

FWIW, I wouldn't refer (or want Emacs to refer) to
keys that you use to cycle among history or default
elements (`M-(p|n)', `M-(r|s)') or cycle among
completion candidates (`<down>', `<up') as
"navigation keys" (basic or non-basic).

They are cycling keys.  Yes, they help you access
something, to choose it for some purpose.  So they
"get you to" something, in a way, but they're not
motion keys - they don't move point or the mouse
pointer etc.

Keys such as `M-f' navigate in the minibuffer.
Keys that cycle among choices don't.  It's clear
enough, I think, to refer to such keys as "cycling
keys".  It confuses things to refer to them as
navigation keys.

Yes, I realize that we also sometimes speak about
"navigating" when referring to using menus or
searching, etc., whether or not the end result is
moving the cursor.

But when talking about the minibuffer, where there
really are motion keys, I think it's clearer to
call such keys "cycling", not "navigation".

Just one opinion.

Message #36 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2021 23:50:42 +0100

jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:

>> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2021 at 8:46 AM
>> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
>> To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
>> Cc: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Subject: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
>>
>> jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:
>>
>> > How about mini-buffer entries that require user writing a string.  How would
>> > a user figure out what to do?
>> >
>> > Is there any information about basic navigation keys for mini-buffer input in the manual?
>>
>> Does the node (info "(emacs) Minibuffer History")[1] in the Emacs manual
>> count?  FWIW, it can be found through index entries such as 'minibuffer
>> history', 'M-n (minibuffer history)', 'DOWN (minibuffer history)', etc.
>
> We are not really talking about mini-buffer history, but mini-buffer input.

The OP refers to <up> and <down>.  In the minibuffer, these keys by
default navigate so-called "minibuffer history", where e.g. <down>
inserts "future" history, AKA the next default value.  So <down> is
actually "navigating" the list of defaults (completing-read's 7th
argument), not the list of completions (completing-read's 2nd argument).

If this is not the kind of input you're referring to, then could you
please clarify which input you're referring to?

>> For more details on minibuffer keymaps there's also
>> (info "(emacs) Minibuffer Maps")[2], found e.g. via the index entry
>> 'C-h r i minibuffer key TAB RET'.
>>
>> [1]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-History.html
>> [2]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-Maps.html
>>
>> HTH,

-- 
Basil

Message #39 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2021 23:50:52 +0100

jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:

>> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2021 at 8:46 AM
>> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
>> To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
>> Cc: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
>>
>> jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:
>>
>> > How about mini-buffer entries that require user writing a string.  How would
>> > a user figure out what to do?
>> >
>> > Is there any information about basic navigation keys for mini-buffer input in the manual?
>>
>> Does the node (info "(emacs) Minibuffer History")[1] in the Emacs manual
>> count?  FWIW, it can be found through index entries such as 'minibuffer
>> history', 'M-n (minibuffer history)', 'DOWN (minibuffer history)', etc.
>
> I would like to see some indication of the type of input it requires.

How does the type of input it requires differ from the type of input
required in any other Emacs buffer?

> Perhaps that information can go on the mode-line (for instance some type
> of designated coloured mouse button for mini-buffer information).
>
>> For more details on minibuffer keymaps there's also
>> (info "(emacs) Minibuffer Maps")[2], found e.g. via the index entry
>> 'C-h r i minibuffer key TAB RET'.
>>
>> [1]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-History.html
>> [2]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-Maps.html
>>
>> HTH,

-- 
Basil

Message #42 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 01:00:36 +0200

> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2021 at 10:50 AM
> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
> To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
> Cc: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
>
> jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:
>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2021 at 8:46 AM
> >> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
> >> To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
> >> Cc: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
> >>
> >> jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:
> >>
> >> > How about mini-buffer entries that require user writing a string.  How would
> >> > a user figure out what to do?
> >> >
> >> > Is there any information about basic navigation keys for mini-buffer input in the manual?
> >>
> >> Does the node (info "(emacs) Minibuffer History")[1] in the Emacs manual
> >> count?  FWIW, it can be found through index entries such as 'minibuffer
> >> history', 'M-n (minibuffer history)', 'DOWN (minibuffer history)', etc.
> >
> > I would like to see some indication of the type of input it requires.
>
> How does the type of input it requires differ from the type of input
> required in any other Emacs buffer?

It seems to me that you got to know exactly what to do, and I tend to forget
when I do not use a feature for some time.


> > Perhaps that information can go on the mode-line (for instance some type
> > of designated coloured mouse button for mini-buffer information).
> >
> >> For more details on minibuffer keymaps there's also
> >> (info "(emacs) Minibuffer Maps")[2], found e.g. via the index entry
> >> 'C-h r i minibuffer key TAB RET'.
> >>
> >> [1]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-History.html
> >> [2]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-Maps.html
> >>
> >> HTH,
>
> --
> Basil
>

Message #45 received at 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 01:04:35 +0200

> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2021 at 10:50 AM
> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
> To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
> Cc: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
>
> jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:
>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2021 at 8:46 AM
> >> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
> >> To: jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com
> >> Cc: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 48764 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >> Subject: bug#48764: mini-buffer completion
> >>
> >> jaime.escalante <at> gmx.com writes:
> >>
> >> > How about mini-buffer entries that require user writing a string.  How would
> >> > a user figure out what to do?
> >> >
> >> > Is there any information about basic navigation keys for mini-buffer input in the manual?
> >>
> >> Does the node (info "(emacs) Minibuffer History")[1] in the Emacs manual
> >> count?  FWIW, it can be found through index entries such as 'minibuffer
> >> history', 'M-n (minibuffer history)', 'DOWN (minibuffer history)', etc.
> >
> > We are not really talking about mini-buffer history, but mini-buffer input.
>
> The OP refers to <up> and <down>.  In the minibuffer, these keys by
> default navigate so-called "minibuffer history", where e.g. <down>
> inserts "future" history, AKA the next default value.  So <down> is
> actually "navigating" the list of defaults (completing-read's 7th
> argument), not the list of completions (completing-read's 2nd argument).

For me it was just about cycling through a list of possible inputs.
Correct, it is not about list of completions, but navigating the list
of defaults.  I write a lot of code and cannot always remember what
I would be having for input.


> If this is not the kind of input you're referring to, then could you
> please clarify which input you're referring to?
>
> >> For more details on minibuffer keymaps there's also
> >> (info "(emacs) Minibuffer Maps")[2], found e.g. via the index entry
> >> 'C-h r i minibuffer key TAB RET'.
> >>
> >> [1]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-History.html
> >> [2]: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Minibuffer-Maps.html
> >>
> >> HTH,
>
> --
> Basil
>

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