GNU bug report logs - #49278
28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp

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Package: emacs; Reported by: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>; dated Tue, 29 Jun 2021 18:07:02 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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> From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 14:32:40 +0100
> Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > Fix what? what is the problem?
> 
> The docstring is misleading!

Your changes were not only for the doc string.  But if you want to
focus on the doc string, would the following be okay?

  Major mode for editing programs in Common Lisp and other similar Lisps.




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bug#49278; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> Fix what? what is the problem?

The docstring is misleading!  It tells you that you may
use lisp-mode to edit Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp
and that is completely false. The only other such Lisp
is Common Lisp.  For mode developers it also misleads
into thinking that lisp-mode is an acceptable ancestor
to use for a new Lisp-like major mode that isn't GNU
Emacs Lisp.  That is also false.

So correcting the misleading statement is a good idea.

Jo=C3=A3o





--=20
Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora




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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN,  49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:03:01 -0400
> 
> > How do you suggest to do that in a concise enough way appropriate for
> > a doc string?
> 
> See patch below.

I cannot accept that, sorry.  At least not yet.

I actually still don't understand what practical problem are we trying
to solve here.  There's no code change, so what the code did until now
it will continue to do henceforth.  CL and other lisps also won't
change by virtue of this patch.  So why do we worry what those doc
strings say?

> The problem is indeed not new, it's the same as 20 years ago.
> It's just that noone bothered to fix it.

Fix what? what is the problem?




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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:03 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> w=
rote:
>
> > How do you suggest to do that in a concise enough way appropriate for
> > a doc string?
>
> See patch below.
>
> > >>  (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> > >> -  "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs =
Lisp.
> > >> +  "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.

Fine with me.

> > Did lisp-mode.el changed significantly during those 20 years?  did
> > Maclisp change significantly?  If not, we don't have a problem more
> > that we had it back then, do we?
>
> The problem is indeed not new, it's the same as 20 years ago.
> It's just that noone bothered to fix it.

...because noone really uses MacLisp :-)  Or Lisp in general :-(

Jo=C3=A3o




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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:03:01 -0400
In-Reply-To: <83tulfmsu4.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 30 Jun
 2021 15:37:23 +0300")
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> How do you suggest to do that in a concise enough way appropriate for
> a doc string?

See patch below.

> >>  (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> >> -  "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
> >> +  "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.


> Did lisp-mode.el changed significantly during those 20 years?  did
> Maclisp change significantly?  If not, we don't have a problem more
> that we had it back then, do we?

The problem is indeed not new, it's the same as 20 years ago.
It's just that noone bothered to fix it.


        Stefan


diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
index 59325d647d..99bf1a98c2 100644
--- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
+++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
@@ -765,7 +765,7 @@ lisp-mode-menu
      :help "Run an inferior Lisp process, input and output via buffer `*inferior-lisp*'"]))
 
 (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
-  "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
+  "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
 Commands:
 Delete converts tabs to spaces as it moves back.
 Blank lines separate paragraphs.  Semicolons start comments.





Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#49278; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwv7dice192.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
 Monnier on Tue, 29 Jun 2021 18:59:29 -0400)
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 18:59:29 -0400
> 
> Same difference.  It only works for Maclisp to the extent that Maclisp
> is similar to Common Lisp and not because `lisp-mode` is a major mode
> for both Common Lisp and Maclisp.
> 
> > So I reckon lisp-mode wouldn't to a terrible job in most MacLisp
> > programs.  And maybe even SLY and a modern Common Lisp compiler could
> > probably grok MacLisp or Franz Lisp code given sufficient
> > hand-holding.
> 
> IIRC they'd be surprised by the way arrays are treated:
> 
>     http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/array.html
> 
> or "hunks":
> 
>     http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/hunks.html
> 
> Also `lisp-mode` will happily misfontify and misindent `caseq` and `selectq`:
> 
>     http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/contro.html#CASEQ
> 
> [ There are significant incompatibilities, of course.  ]
> 
> The fact that such errors in the handling of Maclisp have not been
> addressed in `lisp-mode` in all these years (despite that Maclisp has
> been a very stable target during those years) shows clearly that
> `lisp-mode` does not try to be a major mode for Maclisp.

We could say something about that to lower user expectations.




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bug#49278; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 1:35 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:25:45 +0100
> > Cc: 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> >
> > > > -  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
> > > > -general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp.  Its mode comm=
and
> > > > -is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}.  Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for fi=
les
> > > > -whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> > > > +  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Comm=
on
> > > > +Lisp or its ancestor dialects.  Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
> > > > +lisp-mode}.  Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose na=
mes
> > > > +end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> > >
> > > This basically doesn't change anything, and the original text does
> > > mention CL.  If mentioning the ancestor dialects is important, we
> > > could add that.
> >
> > The point is to make sure that noone is misinformed to think that
> > lisp-mode is a suitable ancestor for, say, scheme-mode or clojure-mode =
or
> > my-2021-lisp-mode.
>
> We can mention Scheme and Clojure there (as examples of languages that
> are NOT handled), if that's the issue.  Or maybe you can describe
> those dialects that you'd like to exempt in some more general way?

Here's a very good  way: dialects that are _not_ Common Lisp or its
ancestors.  Which is what I wrote.  But Stefan goes even farther and
would probably phrase it: dialetcts that are _not_ Common Lisp _period_.
He's probably right.  Lisp mode is only for Common Lisp (or for some
language you invent that is a superset of Common Lisp).

> > So it's not true that this doesn't change anything: it removes an
> > ambiguity.
>
> Not in my eyes, no.  I think you assign too much significance to the
> "ancestor" part, and rely on the reader to understand that
> significance.

`lisp-mode` shuoldn't be used for editing other things than Common Lisp.
It's _that_ simple. Neither should it be used as an ancestor for derived
modes which aim to edit languages that are not a superset of Common
Lisp.  I think it's pretty obvious that current phrasing makes this action
plausible, when in reality it's a mistake.  It will bring problems to this
hypothetical developer.

Don't know how else to explain it.

> > > >  (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> > > > -  "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs=
 Lisp.
> > > > +  "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
> > >
> > > Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
> > > There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.
> >
> > That's true, I guess.  The point is to make sure that no one gets the
> > temptation to derive new Lisp-ish modes based on lisp-mode for
> > languages that have no relation to CL.  So what to you say to:
> >
> > "Major mode for editing Common Lisp and historically related Lisps"
> >
> > "Major mode for editing Common Lisp and its ancestors"
> >
> > "Major mode for editing code historically related to Common Lisp"
>
> Again, I'd like to understand better what misunderstandings are you
> trying to prevent.

Case in point: Phil Hagelberg in this discussion developed a Lisp-like
language, called "fennel" I believe.  I believe he developed it in the
recent past. He used `lisp-mode` as the ancestor in `define-derived-mode`.
Because other long-running extensions for Common Lisp specifically
rely on lisp-mode-hook (which again, is for Common Lisp exclusively),
the presence of those extensions introduces problems that Phil has to
work around in this fennel-mode.el file.  He also has to write more
code than we would have needed if he had used lisp-data-mode.

As far as I can tell, Phil used lisp-mode as an ancestor because
no lisp-data-mode was available/visible to him and because he
wanted to reuse some Lisp-editing code.  A worthy goal. But because
of lisp-mode's proven specificity to Common Lisp, he also bought
himself some conflicts (that somehow the developers of Scheme mode
and Clojure mode managed to avoid). So the docstring fixes aim to
prevent that mistake.

Jo=C3=A3o




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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>,
>   49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 16:46:10 -0400
> 
> >>  (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> >> -  "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
> >> +  "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
> > Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
> > There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.
> 
> The question is to describe what this major mode is designed to do.

How do you suggest to do that in a concise enough way appropriate for
a doc string?

> People who want to look at Maclisp code (or other defunct dialects) will
> probably want to use `lisp-mode` for the simple reason that Maclisp is
> reasonably close to Common Lisp so it's the closest major mode we have
> to offer, but the user should not expect correct handling of Maclisp in
> those places where it differs from Common Lisp, because `lisp-mode` is
> written specifically for Common Lisp and not for Maclisp: compatibility
> with Maclisp has not been taken into account for more than 20
> years, AFAIK.

Did lisp-mode.el changed significantly during those 20 years? did
Maclisp change significantly?  If not, we don't have a problem more
that we had it back then, do we?




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> From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:25:45 +0100
> Cc: 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> 
> > > -  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
> > > -general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp.  Its mode command
> > > -is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}.  Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files
> > > -whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> > > +  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
> > > +Lisp or its ancestor dialects.  Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
> > > +lisp-mode}.  Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose names
> > > +end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> >
> > This basically doesn't change anything, and the original text does
> > mention CL.  If mentioning the ancestor dialects is important, we
> > could add that.
> 
> The point is to make sure that noone is misinformed to think that
> lisp-mode is a suitable ancestor for, say, scheme-mode or clojure-mode or
> my-2021-lisp-mode.

We can mention Scheme and Clojure there (as examples of languages that
are NOT handled), if that's the issue.  Or maybe you can describe
those dialects that you'd like to exempt in some more general way?

> So it's not true that this doesn't change anything: it removes an
> ambiguity.

Not in my eyes, no.  I think you assign too much significance to the
"ancestor" part, and rely on the reader to understand that
significance.

> > >  (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> > > -  "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
> > > +  "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
> >
> > Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
> > There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.
> 
> That's true, I guess.  The point is to make sure that no one gets the
> temptation to derive new Lisp-ish modes based on lisp-mode for
> languages that have no relation to CL.  So what to you say to:
> 
> "Major mode for editing Common Lisp and historically related Lisps"
> 
> "Major mode for editing Common Lisp and its ancestors"
> 
> "Major mode for editing code historically related to Common Lisp"

Again, I'd like to understand better what misunderstandings are you
trying to prevent.  If we are only talking about Scheme and Clojure, I
think it's easier to mention them explicitly.




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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 4:51 AM Phil Hagelberg <phil@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> > In addition, there is in Emacs 27.1 a new lisp-data-mode.  That is
> > useful for defining using define-derived-mode to make Lisp-like major
> > modes derived from commonly found Lisp-style functionality such as
> > parenthesis-matching syntax tables and such.
>
> I don't think this is a very good argument; as the author of a major
> mode for a lisp language, it never would have occurred to me to even
> look at lisp-data-mode because its name indicates that it's not intended
> for use writing programs. Yes, I know code is data, etc, but this name
> still strongly implies a different use.

Maybe you were using an old Emacs, else reading  the manual at
"Example modes" would give you an example. And if you know code
is data in Lisp, chances are other Lisp enthusiasts also know that.
The manual reference isn't much, but it's not like Lisp is the biggest
thing out there anyway, so I don't know if a full section on this base
mode is worth it.

But if the name is bugging you, Stefan once proposed "lispish-mode".
I think it's very slightly silly, and the current name is accurate in meani=
ng,
but we could make a snazzier alias.

> If the docstring for lisp-mode is to be changed, (rather than adding a
> common-lisp-mode for common lisp like they should have done at the
> outset)

This is a tangent: but the outset was probably before Common Lisp
was a thing.  The first VCS-checked version of that file is from 1991,
but I suspect it was around for much longer.  At the time, people were
really trying to kill off their own Lisps and meeting expensively in commit=
tees
to converge into a shiny new language.  So Common Lisp mode was really
to become "the Lisp".

> hen it would be better if a replacement mode were introduced
> which other lisp major modes could derive from. Otherwise there's no way
> to enable paredit-mode (for instance) across all lisps. Deriving off
> prog-mode isn't a very good solution there.

Yes, this is why the prescription is to derive from lisp-data-mode.  And
you can (add-hook 'lisp-data-mode 'paredit-mode).

If you want to make scheme mode and clojure mode and such
derive from lisp-data-mode, it's probably not very hard: patches
welcome.

But here I'm just correcting a bug in the documentation.

Jo=C3=A3o




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From: Phil Hagelberg <phil@HIDDEN>
To: 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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> In addition, there is in Emacs 27.1 a new lisp-data-mode.  That is
> useful for defining using define-derived-mode to make Lisp-like major
> modes derived from commonly found Lisp-style functionality such as
> parenthesis-matching syntax tables and such.

I don't think this is a very good argument; as the author of a major
mode for a lisp language, it never would have occurred to me to even
look at lisp-data-mode because its name indicates that it's not intended
for use writing programs. Yes, I know code is data, etc, but this name
still strongly implies a different use.

If the docstring for lisp-mode is to be changed, (rather than adding a
common-lisp-mode for common lisp like they should have done at the
outset) then it would be better if a replacement mode were introduced
which other lisp major modes could derive from. Otherwise there's no way
to enable paredit-mode (for instance) across all lisps. Deriving off
prog-mode isn't a very good solution there.

-Phil




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To: =?windows-1252?B?Sm/jbyBU4XZvcmE=?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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> Yeah, but fair to say MacLisp hasn't evolved tremendously in
> those years (and neither has Common Lisp sadly).

Same difference.  It only works for Maclisp to the extent that Maclisp
is similar to Common Lisp and not because `lisp-mode` is a major mode
for both Common Lisp and Maclisp.

> So I reckon lisp-mode wouldn't to a terrible job in most MacLisp
> programs.  And maybe even SLY and a modern Common Lisp compiler could
> probably grok MacLisp or Franz Lisp code given sufficient
> hand-holding.

IIRC they'd be surprised by the way arrays are treated:

    http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/array.html

or "hunks":

    http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/hunks.html

Also `lisp-mode` will happily misfontify and misindent `caseq` and `selectq`:

    http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/contro.html#CASEQ

[ There are significant incompatibilities, of course.  ]

The fact that such errors in the handling of Maclisp have not been
addressed in `lisp-mode` in all these years (despite that Maclisp has
been a very stable target during those years) shows clearly that
`lisp-mode` does not try to be a major mode for Maclisp.



        Stefan





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bug#49278; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 9:46 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> w=
rote:
>
> >> +  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
> >> +Lisp or its ancestor dialects.  Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
>
> I think we should remove "or its ancestor dialects" here.

That also works for me, but as you said, it might work reasonably
well for MacLisp etc, too.

> >>  (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> >> -  "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Li=
sp.
> >> +  "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
> > Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
> > There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.
>
> The question is to describe what this major mode is designed to do.
>
> People who want to look at Maclisp code (or other defunct dialects) will
> probably want to use `lisp-mode` for the simple reason that Maclisp is
> reasonably close to Common Lisp so it's the closest major mode we have
> to offer, but the user should not expect correct handling of Maclisp in
> those places where it differs from Common Lisp, because `lisp-mode` is
> written specifically for Common Lisp and not for Maclisp: compatibility
> with Maclisp has not been taken into account for more than 20
> years, AFAIK.

Yeah, but fair to say MacLisp hasn't evolved tremendously in
those years (and neither has Common Lisp sadly). So I reckon
lisp-mode wouldn't to a terrible job in most MacLisp programs.
And maybe even SLY and a modern Common Lisp compiler
could probably grok MacLisp or Franz Lisp code given sufficient
hand-holding.

Anyway, I hope the main point is across: remove suggestion
that it may be used to derive modes for _new_ lisps unrelated
to Common Lisp.

--=20
Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora




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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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>> +  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
>> +Lisp or its ancestor dialects.  Its mode command is @kbd{M-x

I think we should remove "or its ancestor dialects" here.

>>  (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
>> -  "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
>> +  "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
> Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
> There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.

The question is to describe what this major mode is designed to do.

People who want to look at Maclisp code (or other defunct dialects) will
probably want to use `lisp-mode` for the simple reason that Maclisp is
reasonably close to Common Lisp so it's the closest major mode we have
to offer, but the user should not expect correct handling of Maclisp in
those places where it differs from Common Lisp, because `lisp-mode` is
written specifically for Common Lisp and not for Maclisp: compatibility
with Maclisp has not been taken into account for more than 20
years, AFAIK.


        Stefan





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Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 7:16 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:06:19 +0100
> > Cc: monnier@HIDDEN
> >
> > -  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
> > -general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp.  Its mode command
> > -is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}.  Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files
> > -whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> > +  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
> > +Lisp or its ancestor dialects.  Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
> > +lisp-mode}.  Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose names
> > +end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
>
> This basically doesn't change anything, and the original text does
> mention CL.  If mentioning the ancestor dialects is important, we
> could add that.

The point is to make sure that noone is misinformed to think that
lisp-mode is a suitable ancestor for, say, scheme-mode or clojure-mode or
my-2021-lisp-mode.  At the time this was written, all the "general-purpose
Lisp dialects" (minus Scheme) would be handled by Lisp mode.  But
this is just not true anymore.  It's for Common Lisp and probably still
works decently for, say, the defunct MacLisp and Franz Lisp.

So it's not true that this doesn't change anything: it removes an
ambiguity. But I'm fine with any other phrasing that also removes
this ambiguity.  Make a proposal.

> >  (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> > -  "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lis=
p.
> > +  "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
>
> Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
> There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.

That's true, I guess.  The point is to make sure that no one gets the
temptation to derive new Lisp-ish modes based on lisp-mode for
languages that have no relation to CL.  So what to you say to:

"Major mode for editing Common Lisp and historically related Lisps"

"Major mode for editing Common Lisp and its ancestors"

"Major mode for editing code historically related to Common Lisp"

?

Jo=C3=A3o




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#49278; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 49278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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 =?utf-8?B?VMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:06:19 +0100)
Subject: Re: bug#49278: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
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> From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:06:19 +0100
> Cc: monnier@HIDDEN
> 
> -  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
> -general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp.  Its mode command
> -is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}.  Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files
> -whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
> +  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
> +Lisp or its ancestor dialects.  Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
> +lisp-mode}.  Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose names
> +end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.

This basically doesn't change anything, and the original text does
mention CL.  If mentioning the ancestor dialects is important, we
could add that.

>  (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
> -  "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
> +  "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.

Here I'd prefer to mention CL without un-mentioning the other Lisps.
There's no reason to deny they exist or existed.

Thanks.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#49278; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: 28.0.50; Lisp Mode is for Common Lisp
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:06:19 +0100
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Hi,

It's been the status quo for a long time now that Lisp Mode is the Emacs
major mode for editing Common Lisp programs.  The SLIME and SLY packages
are popular amongst CL programmers and have relied on this fact for many
years (SLIME in I think has been the tool of choice for Emacs+CL for
more than 15 years).

In addition, there are many references to "Common Lisp" in lisp-mode.el.

In addition, non-CL-lisps have also historically used their own major
modes derived from prog-mode.  Examples are Emacs lisp mode, Scheme mode
and Clojure mode.

In addition, there is in Emacs 27.1 a new lisp-data-mode.  That is
useful for defining using define-derived-mode to make Lisp-like major
modes derived from commonly found Lisp-style functionality such as
parenthesis-matching syntax tables and such.

However, the docstring of lisp-mode, the function, still states that it
is used for "Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp".  Likely this docstring
was written when Common Lisp was still young and intended to group its
closely-related Lisp brethren (MacLisp, Franz Lisp, etc) in mind.

Those variants are now gone, we should update lisp-mode.el's docstring
to reflect the state of things, since a fraction of people seem to be
misusing lisp-mode to derive new major modes for new niche Lisps, where
they should be using lisp-data-mode (perhaps they are not aware of it).

See also:

  https://gitlab.com/technomancy/fennel-mode/-/issues/11
  https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/issues/339
  https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/18646/why-isnt-emacs-lisp-mode-=
derived-from-lisp-mode/18652#18652

Jo=C3=A3o


To fix this, I suggest this documentation patch.


diff --git a/doc/emacs/building.texi b/doc/emacs/building.texi
index 8de93867ba..7d655449c5 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/building.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/building.texi
@@ -1764,10 +1764,10 @@ External Lisp
 @cindex mode, Lisp
 @cindex Common Lisp
=20
-  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in
-general-purpose Lisp dialects, such as Common Lisp.  Its mode command
-is @kbd{M-x lisp-mode}.  Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files
-whose names end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
+  Lisp mode is the major mode for editing programs written in Common
+Lisp or its ancestor dialects.  Its mode command is @kbd{M-x
+lisp-mode}.  Emacs uses Lisp mode automatically for files whose names
+end in @file{.l}, @file{.lsp}, or @file{.lisp}.
=20
 @findex run-lisp
 @vindex inferior-lisp-program
diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
index 59325d647d..99bf1a98c2 100644
--- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
+++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/lisp-mode.el
@@ -765,7 +765,7 @@ lisp-mode-menu
      :help "Run an inferior Lisp process, input and output via buffer `*in=
ferior-lisp*'"]))
=20
 (define-derived-mode lisp-mode lisp-data-mode "Lisp"
-  "Major mode for editing Lisp code for Lisps other than GNU Emacs Lisp.
+  "Major mode for editing Common Lisp code.
 Commands:
 Delete converts tabs to spaces as it moves back.
 Blank lines separate paragraphs.  Semicolons start comments.





Acknowledgement sent to João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#49278; Package emacs. Full text available.
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