Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2021 14:57:13 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 24 10:57:12 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40552 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1meevw-0003Kr-Jc for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 10:57:12 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:42789) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1meevh-0003Jh-0M for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 10:57:11 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f169.google.com with SMTP id m14so8280745pfc.9 for <49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 07:56:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0T4v3hZtxbgh4bGo2dMiDH1uDFC6ha9Ka14z8ZIVvUk=; b=bJggF4W0f/d0/KB941kshMKEgr3hNgV3SdowBJzfLuZiXl0WIPEGzy4ulb5OgpofOq MBH4GKTF3IIX7qs1bJ5o79vhpHL4hnp76exw56ZGOIyyeEIkSecfvtiXV7ndNZ3LKeCZ 4PwsCDdpVkht/PE+y7jsgrNKxtiKdDElWXBNZQ48ygmi+lwLYQzpfjV29d2ffpSwkhqA kVuh7sLIik+hmadOt35DgFRSQ/9PNvPQ1L7hkrfeAgW8YR4NQal7/7orAQ3aMFstJ5I6 amiZoSb8WhgjoQGhRim6pnbV1/esWfMtuDyQ3SzDO1XQVXqULQ1UH0gk+wyVTy1KFA0s uo+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531lw/59NL/vqKeB4t0dK2pbunRRvTIc5oH4XV9BGfegu+aUENK1 r9nrdGvzyk/1U0EWdE6mpxRA6J6MITMVo3USwSo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyHjHcIbZrNauWCasWi/9xfuPuAcfoIkoDW0njSU0mR2LT9uZ2VNtwjJbToPQT55KlWwusFXuz4coRcOZ9FsIE= X-Received: by 2002:a63:330f:: with SMTP id z15mr6193164pgz.42.1635087411046; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 07:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 07:56:50 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <871r4a8q24.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN> <831r8aezu6.fsf@HIDDEN> <05beaaf-113c-1260-e58-a4736396a765@HIDDEN> <83tul5exg2.fsf@HIDDEN> <79b0205e-b8c5-d11c-5b78-812c352d755@HIDDEN> <83h7h5e334.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=GEPYh8vQYQu_PTWGVdLoBx1m5Tfpm4z0C0e-kSh4m0w@HIDDEN> <8735oqa6zd.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkv2qxwb8kH7Vg_A0MZScYpJDJ-AfS24yiE7Z0VViyhqw@HIDDEN> <871r4a8q24.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 07:56:50 -0700 Message-ID: <CADwFkm=MdzdsU08YDKK_4nPAPeVW=nbwK0nW1UNM-4w-ozQ6RQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rpluim@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > But what about changing all the .emacs instances to ~/.emacs.d/init.el, > which is what we're trying to encourage, I think? (Even if we let > ~/.emacs.el and ~/.emacs take precedence.) I started this, we have 500+ instances to look over in doc/... Do we want the full path to the file every time? That's arguably a bit better.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2021 14:47:21 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 24 10:47:21 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40521 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1meemP-00033O-IA for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 10:47:21 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f180.google.com ([209.85.210.180]:39505) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1meemO-00033B-3W for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 10:47:20 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f180.google.com with SMTP id d9so8279158pfl.6 for <49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 07:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UsYgB1gNk/uzJGGyehhvs2YWIFqdh/l5LTkx3NbJ/N0=; b=gVsezCN8zxsq0UCB1bpu1ZNf84/IsMVaRrCYA6lIb4O1ui+VwhCL7EZjU95Q4uzxKL 6i11ESksoeOwekWESn0yvI5eZkdaErPGtWCB5o/sbU9Nq6SLSyPw/Tm5+mLE/XF7cac2 nYCaf3Fr8DTofYWBwlQZbOkyjjCv1D+tvsjwZPDQvZm0yBkNdUKWJ1nQuktZKAAXCrzZ CWA+w6qxtkSAsVyigPhvbiskMshGRLG/5K7SW2KUm5kEu3+br7yeYl1wb+NCU/TeDgZ/ 4W1CfKpR8gPID+59ODolT6iCRFt5iZ/ECN3NIcKqs/oYzwPgEAG1CpdZg2Ki57ZcnCRH 05Uw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532e8rf2LMTQ8x+SsWXa1JcKAQIAAzIKt+bjcfdKW3xRfogJqf7b n933GSdFTDGGuxWutXpHwVCVED6Nww6s2ArGC/o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzE0O38CM8OS8+eYCV8/vQ0aOEfMKBTlhE7vUkiwEK2ONjUy2J4HBVyW3SKYLB1Qw93UezDGFr32oOJAVpY4mo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:244d:b0:44d:c279:5155 with SMTP id d13-20020a056a00244d00b0044dc2795155mr12636650pfj.0.1635086834328; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 07:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 07:47:13 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <871r4a8q24.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN> <831r8aezu6.fsf@HIDDEN> <05beaaf-113c-1260-e58-a4736396a765@HIDDEN> <83tul5exg2.fsf@HIDDEN> <79b0205e-b8c5-d11c-5b78-812c352d755@HIDDEN> <83h7h5e334.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=GEPYh8vQYQu_PTWGVdLoBx1m5Tfpm4z0C0e-kSh4m0w@HIDDEN> <8735oqa6zd.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkv2qxwb8kH7Vg_A0MZScYpJDJ-AfS24yiE7Z0VViyhqw@HIDDEN> <871r4a8q24.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 07:47:13 -0700 Message-ID: <CADwFkmk5u7w-Cd1j4iRBboTxti3VMRcVB490sT+kaQVQrjxqQQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rpluim@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > But what about changing all the .emacs instances to ~/.emacs.d/init.el, > which is what we're trying to encourage, I think? (Even if we let > ~/.emacs.el and ~/.emacs take precedence.) Sure, that also makes sense. I think that is what Eli proposed as well.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN>
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 16:25:35 +0200
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=GEPYh8vQYQu_PTWGVdLoBx1m5Tfpm4z0C0e-kSh4m0w@HIDDEN>
(Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 24 Oct 2021 01:12:49 -0700")
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>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 01:12:49 -0700, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>=
said:
Stefan> A) Inadequacies in the Info node `(emacs) Find Init'.
Stefan> B) Further changes to how we load the init file.
Stefan> As for A, I think the text is fine as is. As for B, I agree wi=
th Eli
Stefan> that we should let the dust settle on the recent changes for a =
while
Stefan> before doing anything more.
I=CA=BCve not re-read "(emacs) Find Init" recently, so I=CA=BCll defer to y=
our
judgement on that.
And Eli is spot on regarding init file loading changes. It=CA=BCs
complicated enough as it is, and doesn=CA=BCt need any more tinkering.
Robert
--=20
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From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >> For brevity the
rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses >> ‘~/.emacs.d/init.el’
for the init file. > > I guess because that's not the convention we actually
use. :-) > We say ".emacs" ev [...]
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Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:
>> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses
>> =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=99 for the init file.
>
> I guess because that's not the convention we actually use. :-)
> We say ".emacs" everywhere. AFAICT, the only place we even mention
> "~/.emacs.d/init.el" in the manual is this node (!).
Heh heh. Oh, OK.
> That's why I proposed to change "current" to "historical", but the word
> "traditional" is also good IMO.
But what about changing all the .emacs instances to ~/.emacs.d/init.el,
which is what we're trying to encourage, I think? (Even if we let
~/.emacs.el and ~/.emacs take precedence.)
--=20
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN>
<831r8aezu6.fsf@HIDDEN>
<05beaaf-113c-1260-e58-a4736396a765@HIDDEN>
<83tul5exg2.fsf@HIDDEN>
<79b0205e-b8c5-d11c-5b78-812c352d755@HIDDEN>
<83h7h5e334.fsf@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkm=GEPYh8vQYQu_PTWGVdLoBx1m5Tfpm4z0C0e-kSh4m0w@HIDDEN>
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Message-ID: <CADwFkmkv2qxwb8kH7Vg_A0MZScYpJDJ-AfS24yiE7Z0VViyhqw@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
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Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:
>> This is the text under discussion:
>>
>> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses ju=
st
>> the current default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=99 fo=
r the init file.
>>
>> The sentence says: "the current default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/ini=
t.el=E2=80=99".
>> I can't interpret this in any other way than that this is the default
>> location. This is, as we know, incorrect.
>
> Well, it's the default default location, isn't it?
The default is ".emacs.el", if this text from (info "(emacs) Find Init")
is correct:
Emacs looks for your init file using the filenames =E2=80=98~/.emacs.e=
l=E2=80=99,
=E2=80=98~/.emacs=E2=80=99, or =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=99 in=
that order; you can choose
to use any one of these names. [...] Emacs can also look in an
XDG-compatible location for =E2=80=98init.el=E2=80=99, the default is =
the directory
=E2=80=98~/.config/emacs=E2=80=99.
> But saying "current" here is very odd -- it's probably meant as opposed
> to "historical", but why should the person reading this text care? Why
> not just say
>
> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses
> =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=99 for the init file.
I guess because that's not the convention we actually use. :-)
We say ".emacs" everywhere. AFAICT, the only place we even mention
"~/.emacs.d/init.el" in the manual is this node (!).
That's why I proposed to change "current" to "historical", but the word
"traditional" is also good IMO.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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id 1medWh-0007Mv-9v; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 15:27:05 +0200
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN>
<831r8aezu6.fsf@HIDDEN>
<05beaaf-113c-1260-e58-a4736396a765@HIDDEN>
<83tul5exg2.fsf@HIDDEN>
<79b0205e-b8c5-d11c-5b78-812c352d755@HIDDEN>
<83h7h5e334.fsf@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkm=GEPYh8vQYQu_PTWGVdLoBx1m5Tfpm4z0C0e-kSh4m0w@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 15:27:02 +0200
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=GEPYh8vQYQu_PTWGVdLoBx1m5Tfpm4z0C0e-kSh4m0w@HIDDEN>
(Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 24 Oct 2021 01:12:49 -0700")
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Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > This is the text
under discussion: > > For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally
uses just > the current default location ‘~/.emacs.d/init.el’ for the
init file. > > The sentence [...]
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Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:
> This is the text under discussion:
>
> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just
> the current default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=99 for=
the init file.
>
> The sentence says: "the current default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init=
.el=E2=80=99".
> I can't interpret this in any other way than that this is the default
> location. This is, as we know, incorrect.
Well, it's the default default location, isn't it?
But saying "current" here is very odd -- it's probably meant as opposed
to "historical", but why should the person reading this text care? Why
not just say
For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses
=E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=99 for the init file.
--=20
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <83h7h5e334.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 08 Jul
2021 09:23:27 +0300")
References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN>
<831r8aezu6.fsf@HIDDEN>
<05beaaf-113c-1260-e58-a4736396a765@HIDDEN>
<83tul5exg2.fsf@HIDDEN>
<79b0205e-b8c5-d11c-5b78-812c352d755@HIDDEN>
<83h7h5e334.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> I understand the sentence to be making two assertions:
>>
>> 1. Throughout the documentation, =E2=80=9C~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=9D wi=
ll be used as a
>> shorthand for =E2=80=9Cthe initialisation file=E2=80=9D, whatever filena=
me that happens to
>> have.
>> 2. The default location of the initialisation file is =E2=80=9C~/.emacs.=
d/init.el=E2=80=9D.
>>
>> Neither is true.
>
> The 2nd one is not what that sentence says.
This is the text under discussion:
For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just
the current default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=99 for t=
he init file.
The sentence says: "the current default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.e=
l=E2=80=99".
I can't interpret this in any other way than that this is the default
location. This is, as we know, incorrect.
> If the 1st one is incorrect, it should be fixed to reflect the truth.
The proposed fix here was to change it to say:
For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just
the current default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs=E2=80=99 for the init fi=
le.
That is incidentally also the convention we have used historically, and
what you will find all over the documentation. However, this is also
not entirely correct, as the default will differ depending on the
details discussed in `(emacs) Find Init'. So I would suggest this
simple change instead:
For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just
the historical default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs=E2=80=99 for the init=
file.
As for the rest of this bug report, there is some discussion about:
A) Inadequacies in the Info node `(emacs) Find Init'.
B) Further changes to how we load the init file.
As for A, I think the text is fine as is. As for B, I agree with Eli
that we should let the dust settle on the recent changes for a while
before doing anything more.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2021 19:10:44 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 08 15:10:44 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57500 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m1ZQ4-0004Pc-Cr for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 15:10:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52442) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1ZQ1-0004PO-4j for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 15:10:43 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:48412) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1ZPv-00056c-FG; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 15:10:35 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2155 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1ZPv-0006tH-3H; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 15:10:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 22:10:21 +0300 Message-Id: <83v95kd3ky.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <9de16f1f-86e1-a2ff-55c3-272b98d0f827@HIDDEN> (message from Peter Oliver on Thu, 8 Jul 2021 19:22:59 +0100 (BST)) Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN> <831r8aezu6.fsf@HIDDEN> <05beaaf-113c-1260-e58-a4736396a765@HIDDEN> <83tul5exg2.fsf@HIDDEN> <79b0205e-b8c5-d11c-5b78-812c352d755@HIDDEN> <83h7h5e334.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7db3lk.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxldusk.fsf@HIDDEN> <9de16f1f-86e1-a2ff-55c3-272b98d0f827@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rpluim@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 19:22:59 +0100 (BST) > From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> > cc: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>, larsi@HIDDEN, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > Deleting that would be a step back, since it was added for a reason, > > see the discussions about that. Specifically, we don't want to repeat > > the whole long description of how and where does Emacs find the init > > file every time we mention the init file. > > Perhaos, elsewhere in the documentation, instead of saying “~/.emacs”, we could say “the initialization file”, accompanied by a link to this description of where it can be found. I'd suggest to audit all the places where this could be relevant, before proposing a solution. For example, if some text tells the user "put this-and-that Lisp in your ~/.emacs file", a reference to a description how Emacs looks for the init file will only confuse.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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[82.37.201.33]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p7sm2918003wrr.21.2021.07.08.11.23.01 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 08 Jul 2021 11:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 168IN0bw039103 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 8 Jul 2021 19:23:00 +0100 Received: from localhost (mavit@localhost) by froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (8.16.1/8.16.1/Submit) with ESMTP id 168IMxiE039094; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 19:22:59 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: froglet.home.mavit.org.uk: mavit owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 19:22:59 +0100 (BST) From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file In-Reply-To: <835yxldusk.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <9de16f1f-86e1-a2ff-55c3-272b98d0f827@HIDDEN> References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN> <831r8aezu6.fsf@HIDDEN> <05beaaf-113c-1260-e58-a4736396a765@HIDDEN> <83tul5exg2.fsf@HIDDEN> <79b0205e-b8c5-d11c-5b78-812c352d755@HIDDEN> <83h7h5e334.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7db3lk.fsf@HIDDEN> <835yxldusk.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-1463811583-1261530357-1625768580=:3464" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---1463811583-1261530357-1625768580=:3464 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 8 Jul 2021, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> >> >> We could avoid the >> whole argument by deleting the whole sentence, since its information >> content is low anyway. > > Deleting that would be a step back, since it was added for a reason, > see the discussions about that. Specifically, we don't want to repeat > the whole long description of how and where does Emacs find the init > file every time we mention the init file. Perhaos, elsewhere in the documentation, instead of saying “~/.emacs”, we could say “the initialization file”, accompanied by a link to this description of where it can be found. I couldn’t find the prior discussion of this, so apologies if this idea was already dismissed. -- Peter Oliver ---1463811583-1261530357-1625768580=:3464--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2021 09:22:47 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 08 05:22:47 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54331 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m1QF5-0006tc-5C for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 05:22:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54658) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1QF3-0006tO-G1 for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 05:22:45 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:59746) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1QEy-0003oO-94; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 05:22:40 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1748 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1QEx-0008KW-LN; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 05:22:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 12:22:35 +0300 Message-Id: <835yxldusk.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87bl7db3lk.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Robert Pluim on Thu, 08 Jul 2021 10:40:39 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN> <831r8aezu6.fsf@HIDDEN> <05beaaf-113c-1260-e58-a4736396a765@HIDDEN> <83tul5exg2.fsf@HIDDEN> <79b0205e-b8c5-d11c-5b78-812c352d755@HIDDEN> <83h7h5e334.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7db3lk.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, p.d.oliver@HIDDEN, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> > Cc: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>, larsi@HIDDEN, > 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 10:40:39 +0200 > > Eli> The 2nd one is not what that sentence says. > > Eli> If the 1st one is incorrect, it should be fixed to reflect the truth. > Eli> But that has nothing to do with the rest of this discussion, which is > Eli> about the actual method and order Emacs uses to find the init file(s). > > FWIW I agree with Peter's interpretation here. We could avoid the > whole argument by deleting the whole sentence, since its information > content is low anyway. Deleting that would be a step back, since it was added for a reason, see the discussions about that. Specifically, we don't want to repeat the whole long description of how and where does Emacs find the init file every time we mention the init file.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2021 09:21:06 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 08 05:21:06 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54327 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m1QDR-0006qr-NO for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 05:21:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54408) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1QDM-0006pp-UH for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 05:21:04 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:59718) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1QDG-0003L7-JH; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 05:20:54 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1636 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1QDF-0008Bh-VI; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 05:20:54 -0400 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 12:21:03 +0300 Message-Id: <837di1duv4.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87fswpb41z.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Robert Pluim on Thu, 08 Jul 2021 10:30:48 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <c2409d3b-7253-6d1a-912-a68331ca4932@HIDDEN> <f9be1672d3a3d7c092febfb073db3ec0@HIDDEN> <83a6mxe0aa.fsf@HIDDEN> <87fswpb41z.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: psainty@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN, p.d.oliver@HIDDEN, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> > Cc: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>, p.d.oliver@HIDDEN, > larsi@HIDDEN, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 10:30:48 +0200 > > >> The current XDG_CONFIG_HOME behaviour is opt-in, and I think it should > >> stay that way, partly so that the default behaviour is consistent across > >> systems, but also because I think the suggested behaviour would cause > >> widespread confusion from users who run Emacs before creating their > >> ~/.emacs.d directory, and then can't figure out why their new config > >> isn't working. (IIRC that is exactly what happened with the original > >> XDG_CONFIG_HOME support code before it was adjusted to ensure that it > >> was opt-in behaviour, despite the fact that you needed to be running > >> a pre-release build of Emacs to be affected and therefore likely to > >> have a better understanding of things than the average newcomer.) > > Eli> I tend to agree with Phil here. Let's leave this part of Emacs alone > Eli> for a release or two, and see how the user community reacts to the > Eli> changes we did just recently. Making changes right now in this > Eli> sensitive area could bring more trouble, and what practical problems > Eli> are we going to solve? > > By 'this part' do you mean the XDG_CONFIG_HOME related changes, or > also the suggested change to prefer ~/.emacs.d/init.el when no config > files exist? I meant both. I think we should leave this area alone for a while and let the dust settle on the recent changes.
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From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 10:40:39 +0200
In-Reply-To: <83h7h5e334.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 08 Jul
2021 09:23:27 +0300")
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>>>>> On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 09:23:27 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> said:
>> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 22:51:43 +0100 (BST)
>> From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>
>> cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>=20
>> > The info page =E2=80=9C49.4.4 How Emacs Finds Your Init File=E2=
=80=9D says:
>> >
>> > > For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses =
just
>> > > the current default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=
=99 for the init file.
>> >
>> > However, this seems to be inaccurate: if I start Emacs as a new u=
ser
>> > and make a customisation, that customisation is written to ~/.ema=
cs.
>> >
>> > How can a simplifying convention in a manual be "inaccurate"? And
>> > what does that convention have to do with the order and logic of h=
ow
>> > Emacs actually looks for the init file?
>>=20
>> I understand the sentence to be making two assertions:
>>=20
>> 1. Throughout the documentation, =E2=80=9C~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=
=9D will be used
>> as a shorthand for =E2=80=9Cthe initialisation file=E2=80=9D, whatev=
er filename that
>> happens to have.
>> 2. The default location of the initialisation file is =E2=80=9C~/.em=
acs.d/init.el=E2=80=9D.
>>=20
>> Neither is true.
Eli> The 2nd one is not what that sentence says.
Eli> If the 1st one is incorrect, it should be fixed to reflect the tru=
th.
Eli> But that has nothing to do with the rest of this discussion, which=
is
Eli> about the actual method and order Emacs uses to find the init file=
(s).
FWIW I agree with Peter's interpretation here. We could avoid the
whole argument by deleting the whole sentence, since its information
content is low anyway.
Robert
--=20
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<c2409d3b-7253-6d1a-912-a68331ca4932@HIDDEN>
<f9be1672d3a3d7c092febfb073db3ec0@HIDDEN>
<83a6mxe0aa.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 10:30:48 +0200
In-Reply-To: <83a6mxe0aa.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 08 Jul
2021 10:23:57 +0300")
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>>>>> On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 10:23:57 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> said:
>> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 13:17:22 +1200
>> From: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
>>=20
>> On 2021-07-08 05:58, Peter Oliver wrote:
>> > If we=E2=80=99re making a change, here, it may be worth going all =
the way:
>> > create $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/emacs if it and ~/.emacs.d don=E2=80=99t e=
xist, and
>> > hence use $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/emacs/init.el when creating a new
>> > initialisation file.
>>=20
>> I don't agree with doing that.
>>
Right. We should never create $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/emacs.
>> The current XDG_CONFIG_HOME behaviour is opt-in, and I think it shou=
ld
>> stay that way, partly so that the default behaviour is consistent ac=
ross
>> systems, but also because I think the suggested behaviour would cause
>> widespread confusion from users who run Emacs before creating their
>> ~/.emacs.d directory, and then can't figure out why their new config
>> isn't working. (IIRC that is exactly what happened with the original
>> XDG_CONFIG_HOME support code before it was adjusted to ensure that it
>> was opt-in behaviour, despite the fact that you needed to be running
>> a pre-release build of Emacs to be affected and therefore likely to
>> have a better understanding of things than the average newcomer.)
Eli> I tend to agree with Phil here. Let's leave this part of Emacs al=
one
Eli> for a release or two, and see how the user community reacts to the
Eli> changes we did just recently. Making changes right now in this
Eli> sensitive area could bring more trouble, and what practical proble=
ms
Eli> are we going to solve?
By 'this part' do you mean the XDG_CONFIG_HOME related changes, or
also the suggested change to prefer ~/.emacs.d/init.el when no config
files exist? The latter is a relatively small change, but it=CA=BCs in a
convoluted area of startup [1], so I=CA=BCd have no problem with leaving it
alone.
Robert
Footnotes:
[1] I made the change, tested it, and it gave incorrect results, so had
to re-do it. Twice.
--=20
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2021 07:23:53 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 08 03:23:52 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54149 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m1OO0-0003pB-KG for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 03:23:52 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34046) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1ONx-0003ow-DK for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 03:23:51 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:57404) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1ONr-0007eE-4l; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 03:23:43 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2183 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1ONq-0007VL-L8; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 03:23:43 -0400 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 10:23:57 +0300 Message-Id: <83a6mxe0aa.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <f9be1672d3a3d7c092febfb073db3ec0@HIDDEN> (message from Phil Sainty on Thu, 08 Jul 2021 13:17:22 +1200) Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <c2409d3b-7253-6d1a-912-a68331ca4932@HIDDEN> <f9be1672d3a3d7c092febfb073db3ec0@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, p.d.oliver@HIDDEN, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rpluim@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 13:17:22 +1200 > From: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> > Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> > > On 2021-07-08 05:58, Peter Oliver wrote: > > If we’re making a change, here, it may be worth going all the way: > > create $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/emacs if it and ~/.emacs.d don’t exist, and > > hence use $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/emacs/init.el when creating a new > > initialisation file. > > I don't agree with doing that. > > The current XDG_CONFIG_HOME behaviour is opt-in, and I think it should > stay that way, partly so that the default behaviour is consistent across > systems, but also because I think the suggested behaviour would cause > widespread confusion from users who run Emacs before creating their > ~/.emacs.d directory, and then can't figure out why their new config > isn't working. (IIRC that is exactly what happened with the original > XDG_CONFIG_HOME support code before it was adjusted to ensure that it > was opt-in behaviour, despite the fact that you needed to be running > a pre-release build of Emacs to be affected and therefore likely to > have a better understanding of things than the average newcomer.) I tend to agree with Phil here. Let's leave this part of Emacs alone for a release or two, and see how the user community reacts to the changes we did just recently. Making changes right now in this sensitive area could bring more trouble, and what practical problems are we going to solve?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2021 06:23:21 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 08 02:23:21 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54087 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m1NRQ-0002KL-Tl for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 02:23:21 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53232) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1NRO-0002K9-Vd for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 02:23:19 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:56648) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1NRJ-0006Lp-5E; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 02:23:13 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2355 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1m1NRI-00006l-P6; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 02:23:13 -0400 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 09:23:27 +0300 Message-Id: <83h7h5e334.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <79b0205e-b8c5-d11c-5b78-812c352d755@HIDDEN> (message from Peter Oliver on Wed, 7 Jul 2021 22:51:43 +0100 (BST)) Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN> <831r8aezu6.fsf@HIDDEN> <05beaaf-113c-1260-e58-a4736396a765@HIDDEN> <83tul5exg2.fsf@HIDDEN> <79b0205e-b8c5-d11c-5b78-812c352d755@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rpluim@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 22:51:43 +0100 (BST) > From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> > cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > The info page “49.4.4 How Emacs Finds Your Init File” says: > > > > > For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just > > > the current default location ‘~/.emacs.d/init.el’ for the init file. > > > > However, this seems to be inaccurate: if I start Emacs as a new user > > and make a customisation, that customisation is written to ~/.emacs. > > > > How can a simplifying convention in a manual be "inaccurate"? And > > what does that convention have to do with the order and logic of how > > Emacs actually looks for the init file? > > I understand the sentence to be making two assertions: > > 1. Throughout the documentation, “~/.emacs.d/init.el” will be used as a shorthand for “the initialisation file”, whatever filename that happens to have. > 2. The default location of the initialisation file is “~/.emacs.d/init.el”. > > Neither is true. The 2nd one is not what that sentence says. If the 1st one is incorrect, it should be fixed to reflect the truth. But that has nothing to do with the rest of this discussion, which is about the actual method and order Emacs uses to find the init file(s).
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2021 01:17:29 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 07 21:17:29 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53835 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m1IfQ-0006nP-Ry for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 21:17:29 -0400 Received: from smtp-4.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.59]:45859) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <psainty@HIDDEN>) id 1m1IfO-0006kw-C0 for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 21:17:26 -0400 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=35288 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-4.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <psainty@HIDDEN>) id 1m1IfK-0000YB-Kf; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 13:17:22 +1200 Received: from ip-116-251-162-85.kinect.net.nz ([116.251.162.85]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Thu, 08 Jul 2021 13:17:22 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 13:17:22 +1200 From: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> To: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file In-Reply-To: <c2409d3b-7253-6d1a-912-a68331ca4932@HIDDEN> References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <c2409d3b-7253-6d1a-912-a68331ca4932@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <f9be1672d3a3d7c092febfb073db3ec0@HIDDEN> X-Sender: psainty@HIDDEN User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2021-07-08 05:58, Peter Oliver wrote: > If we’re making a change, here, it may be worth going all the way: > create $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/emacs if it and ~/.emacs.d don’t exist, and > hence use $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/emacs/init.el when creating a new > initialisation file. I don't agree with doing that. The current XDG_CONFIG_HOME behaviour is opt-in, and I think it should stay that way, partly so that the default behaviour is consistent across systems, but also because I think the suggested behaviour would cause widespread confusion from users who run Emacs before creating their ~/.emacs.d directory, and then can't figure out why their new config isn't working. (IIRC that is exactly what happened with the original XDG_CONFIG_HOME support code before it was adjusted to ensure that it was opt-in behaviour, despite the fact that you needed to be running a pre-release build of Emacs to be affected and therefore likely to have a better understanding of things than the average newcomer.) -Phil
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2021 01:06:51 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 07 21:06:51 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53814 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m1IV9-0004Zy-Dk for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 21:06:51 -0400 Received: from smtp-1.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.34]:37571) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <psainty@HIDDEN>) id 1m1IV7-0004Zq-Ea for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 21:06:50 -0400 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=9377 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-1.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <psainty@HIDDEN>) id 1m1IV0-0004Me-Q0; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 13:06:42 +1200 Received: from ip-116-251-162-85.kinect.net.nz ([116.251.162.85]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Thu, 08 Jul 2021 13:06:42 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 13:06:42 +1200 From: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> To: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file In-Reply-To: <87sg0qb7ay.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <c98842368bd008b4e5b88e1863be4cd8@HIDDEN> <87sg0qb7ay.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <dc91bc6980ef2242449429f0d144de64@HIDDEN> X-Sender: psainty@HIDDEN User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2021-07-08 01:08, Robert Pluim wrote: > Iʼm not proposing changing the sequence, only what happens in the case > where there are no init files at all. It would eliminate the 'why is > emacs creating .emacs.d but then not using it' confusion. Thanks for clarifying. I agree -- that sounds sensible.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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[82.37.201.33]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o22sm50242wmc.18.2021.07.07.14.51.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 07 Jul 2021 14:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 167LphvJ282141 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 7 Jul 2021 22:51:43 +0100 Received: from localhost (mavit@localhost) by froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (8.16.1/8.16.1/Submit) with ESMTP id 167LphaP282136; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 22:51:43 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: froglet.home.mavit.org.uk: mavit owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 22:51:43 +0100 (BST) From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file In-Reply-To: <83tul5exg2.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <79b0205e-b8c5-d11c-5b78-812c352d755@HIDDEN> References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN> <831r8aezu6.fsf@HIDDEN> <05beaaf-113c-1260-e58-a4736396a765@HIDDEN> <83tul5exg2.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-1463811583-274957000-1625694703=:8200" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rpluim@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---1463811583-274957000-1625694703=:8200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > This sentence > explains that the rest of the documentation doesn't mention the logic > of finding the init file under its various names, instead using just > one possible name. You changed that one name without changing the > rest of the documentation -- what does that achieve? It turns out that the rest of the documentation already refers to ~/.emacs, not ~/.emacs.d/init.el. > Stepping back a notch, the original report was: > > The info page “49.4.4 How Emacs Finds Your Init File” says: > > > For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just > > the current default location ‘~/.emacs.d/init.el’ for the init file. > > However, this seems to be inaccurate: if I start Emacs as a new user > and make a customisation, that customisation is written to ~/.emacs. > > How can a simplifying convention in a manual be "inaccurate"? And > what does that convention have to do with the order and logic of how > Emacs actually looks for the init file? I understand the sentence to be making two assertions: 1. Throughout the documentation, “~/.emacs.d/init.el” will be used as a shorthand for “the initialisation file”, whatever filename that happens to have. 2. The default location of the initialisation file is “~/.emacs.d/init.el”. Neither is true. -- Peter Oliver ---1463811583-274957000-1625694703=:8200--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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To: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>
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(message from Peter Oliver on Wed, 7 Jul 2021 20:08:20 +0100 (BST))
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
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> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 20:08:20 +0100 (BST)
> From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>
> cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>
> >> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just
> >> -the current default location @file{~/.emacs.d/init.el} for the
> >> +the current default location @file{~/.emacs} for the
> >> init file.
> >
> > Thanks, but this is still inaccurate. Can we please change the
> > documentation so that it tells the whole story?
>
> What do we think is wrong or missing? In the context of the rest of that page, I admit it looks okay to me.
Then I don't think I understand the change at all. This sentence
explains that the rest of the documentation doesn't mention the logic
of finding the init file under its various names, instead using just
one possible name. You changed that one name without changing the
rest of the documentation -- what does that achieve?
Stepping back a notch, the original report was:
The info page “49.4.4 How Emacs Finds Your Init File” says:
> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just
> the current default location ‘~/.emacs.d/init.el’ for the init file.
However, this seems to be inaccurate: if I start Emacs as a new user
and make a customisation, that customisation is written to ~/.emacs.
How can a simplifying convention in a manual be "inaccurate"? And
what does that convention have to do with the order and logic of how
Emacs actually looks for the init file?
What am I missing here?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 20:08:20 +0100 (BST)
From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
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On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>
>> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just
>> -the current default location @file{~/.emacs.d/init.el} for the
>> +the current default location @file{~/.emacs} for the
>> init file.
>
> Thanks, but this is still inaccurate. Can we please change the
> documentation so that it tells the whole story?
What do we think is wrong or missing? In the context of the rest of that page, I admit it looks okay to me.
--
Peter Oliver
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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(message from Peter Oliver on Wed, 7 Jul 2021 19:12:03 +0100 (BST))
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
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> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 19:12:03 +0100 (BST)
> From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>
> > Yes, we should change that to say '~/.emacs'
>
> Here’s a patch to do that.
>
> --
> Peter Oliver
>
> From e0a95ea7a048c505820829d8e10f0addf2cc6c4a Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Peter Oliver <git@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 19:09:58 +0100
> Subject: [PATCH] Document init file with the highest precedence as ~/.emacs
>
> * doc/emacs/custom.texi: Default location of init file is ~/.emacs
> (bug#49424).
> ---
> doc/emacs/custom.texi | 2 +-
> 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)
>
> diff --git a/doc/emacs/custom.texi b/doc/emacs/custom.texi
> index de5d825248..708349e833 100644
> --- a/doc/emacs/custom.texi
> +++ b/doc/emacs/custom.texi
> @@ -2713,7 +2713,7 @@ Find Init
> name in the system's data base of users.
>
> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just
> -the current default location @file{~/.emacs.d/init.el} for the
> +the current default location @file{~/.emacs} for the
> init file.
Thanks, but this is still inaccurate. Can we please change the
documentation so that it tells the whole story?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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[82.37.201.33]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x187sm11524679wmb.47.2021.07.07.11.12.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 07 Jul 2021 11:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 167IC37B045198 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 7 Jul 2021 19:12:03 +0100 Received: from localhost (mavit@localhost) by froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (8.16.1/8.16.1/Submit) with ESMTP id 167IC3xf045195; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 19:12:03 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: froglet.home.mavit.org.uk: mavit owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 19:12:03 +0100 (BST) From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> To: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file In-Reply-To: <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <995892f5-e466-ada6-a64a-e1199d4e33a6@HIDDEN> References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-1463811583-1741092187-1625681523=:8200" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---1463811583-1741092187-1625681523=:8200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, Robert Pluim wrote: > > Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> writes: > >> The info page “49.4.4 How Emacs Finds Your Init File” says: > >> > >>> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just > >>> the current default location ‘~/.emacs.d/init.el’ for the init file. > >> > >> However, this seems to be inaccurate: if I start Emacs as a new user > >> and make a customisation, that customisation is written to ~/.emacs. > > Yes, we should change that to say '~/.emacs' Here’s a patch to do that. -- Peter Oliver ---1463811583-1741092187-1625681523=:8200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name=0001-Document-init-file-with-the-highest-precedence-as-.e.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: <2991a472-c3c2-e441-5caf-b651634fa9f5@HIDDEN> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-Document-init-file-with-the-highest-precedence-as-.e.patch RnJvbSBlMGE5NWVhN2EwNDhjNTA1ODIwODI5ZDhlMTBmMGFkZGYyY2M2YzRh IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQ0KRnJvbTogUGV0ZXIgT2xpdmVy IDxnaXRAbWF2aXQub3JnLnVrPg0KRGF0ZTogV2VkLCA3IEp1bCAyMDIxIDE5 OjA5OjU4ICswMTAwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIERvY3VtZW50IGluaXQg ZmlsZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBoaWdoZXN0IHByZWNlZGVuY2UgYXMgfi8uZW1hY3MN Cg0KKiBkb2MvZW1hY3MvY3VzdG9tLnRleGk6IERlZmF1bHQgbG9jYXRpb24g b2YgaW5pdCBmaWxlIGlzIH4vLmVtYWNzDQooYnVnIzQ5NDI0KS4NCi0tLQ0K IGRvYy9lbWFjcy9jdXN0b20udGV4aSB8IDIgKy0NCiAxIGZpbGUgY2hhbmdl ZCwgMSBpbnNlcnRpb24oKyksIDEgZGVsZXRpb24oLSkNCg0KZGlmZiAtLWdp dCBhL2RvYy9lbWFjcy9jdXN0b20udGV4aSBiL2RvYy9lbWFjcy9jdXN0b20u dGV4aQ0KaW5kZXggZGU1ZDgyNTI0OC4uNzA4MzQ5ZTgzMyAxMDA2NDQNCi0t LSBhL2RvYy9lbWFjcy9jdXN0b20udGV4aQ0KKysrIGIvZG9jL2VtYWNzL2N1 c3RvbS50ZXhpDQpAQCAtMjcxMyw3ICsyNzEzLDcgQEAgRmluZCBJbml0DQog bmFtZSBpbiB0aGUgc3lzdGVtJ3MgZGF0YSBiYXNlIG9mIHVzZXJzLg0KIA0K ICAgRm9yIGJyZXZpdHkgdGhlIHJlc3Qgb2YgdGhlIEVtYWNzIGRvY3VtZW50 YXRpb24gZ2VuZXJhbGx5IHVzZXMganVzdA0KLXRoZSBjdXJyZW50IGRlZmF1 bHQgbG9jYXRpb24gQGZpbGV7fi8uZW1hY3MuZC9pbml0LmVsfSBmb3IgdGhl DQordGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgZGVmYXVsdCBsb2NhdGlvbiBAZmlsZXt+Ly5lbWFj c30gZm9yIHRoZQ0KIGluaXQgZmlsZS4NCiBAYyAgTG9jYWxXb3JkczogIGJh Y2t0YWINCiANCi0tIA0KMi4zMS4xDQoNCg== ---1463811583-1741092187-1625681523=:8200--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2021 17:59:09 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 07 13:59:09 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53401 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m1BpF-0005yc-0O for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 13:59:09 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f51.google.com ([209.85.221.51]:37460) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>) id 1m1BpD-0005y6-1B for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 13:59:08 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f51.google.com with SMTP id i94so4071461wri.4 for <49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 10:59:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mavit.org.uk; s=google; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references :mime-version; bh=16RfPru5dAJsQjIT6iTvSbmK6UI8RfXbHHN3JvLgFHU=; b=Q2pox6dhRY4ygUvuyYI/rKIWHlEnq9cBZDlcneJ6E6qwhicAlC9mPkLINdOIR8gxr3 2aCwQtTuvZtAvpCnVemZzPMbsUHGcXzplPSCMkQ+fNqnZpTul/R+Y+H27mickivVi1BW i6n3MuGK0o7H432AyrvzWTdszPmsdgSXS+MYQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :references:mime-version; bh=16RfPru5dAJsQjIT6iTvSbmK6UI8RfXbHHN3JvLgFHU=; b=dOz0BEPGUGnsWAs6Edr+1a0dKy9AqZA8NWhVo8wY0xYK8JW1IpC+aaq+Oeqz+BS0g4 Q304TAvgvEt6uESdRSXlDSmtvEnSrcKZ7ex4FT4LSfMGuVvFEOKC5AYq8j+mR49Q5mNE qLwoJaX0blYwc7jghg31Q8TgNBrcfC+b63DF+lc8I3KHLY1ez6hi7v3k6fKzWvhcZD1E xAefW5gPJAtAfXkzqD1hGbm5l4W+L2NvO2kO6OUZslQhM2y53S9y+36mn1SBrFGlhDBZ Ya6ZohmDTWE/KwtvKCcU0bfIc55hRBKg99h7CshLPVtJ8EBY0MXdZpXCqMRbB4AL5qV2 coFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531W0ntwSKG+0J1KV2MSxbyDW/sd0Tb6oLlF/k+1tyYkeOcAMti2 SK9+PdIsurD/zYdqGGRk03XI1g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz6+TE2ndBjd2oGU0GTQRDB1e3/k34htEG6XlpBD2qWCy/r0jjT79cYu9swwyDT92f04y9erw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:259:: with SMTP id m25mr793181wrz.230.1625680741098; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 10:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (cpc118948-dudl14-2-0-cust32.16-1.cable.virginm.net. [82.37.201.33]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h21sm19097907wmq.38.2021.07.07.10.59.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 07 Jul 2021 10:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 167Hwxw9044107 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 7 Jul 2021 18:58:59 +0100 Received: from localhost (mavit@localhost) by froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (8.16.1/8.16.1/Submit) with ESMTP id 167HwvUT044104; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 18:58:58 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: froglet.home.mavit.org.uk: mavit owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 18:58:57 +0100 (BST) From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> To: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file In-Reply-To: <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <c2409d3b-7253-6d1a-912-a68331ca4932@HIDDEN> References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-1463811583-1881518746-1625680739=:8200" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---1463811583-1881518746-1625680739=:8200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, Robert Pluim wrote: > If nothing exists, Emacs will create ~/.emacs.d, and use ~/.emacs as > the init file. We can change that to use ~/.emacs.d/init.el if we > want, people who already have init files will not be affected. Sounds good to me. If we’re making a change, here, it may be worth going all the way: create $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/emacs if it and ~/.emacs.d don’t exist, and hence use $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/emacs/init.el when creating a new initialisation file. -- Peter Oliver ---1463811583-1881518746-1625680739=:8200--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2021 16:33:48 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 07 12:33:48 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53329 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m1AUe-0003no-Av for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 12:33:48 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:50560) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1m1AUb-0003nc-GD for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 12:33:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58336) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1m1AUa-0002Ib-23 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 12:33:45 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:38420) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1m1AUX-0000pU-No for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 12:33:43 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1m1AUW-000A4i-9F for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 18:33:40 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: Rudolf Schlatte <rudi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2021 18:33:31 +0200 Message-ID: <m2v95mxew4.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <m21r8az7kx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o8beb77j.fsf@HIDDEN> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:TPf6xA/RaLc/CCzd1pvF2CWwEXk= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes: >>>>>> On Wed, 07 Jul 2021 13:28:30 +0200, Rudolf Schlatte <rudi@HIDDEN> said: > > Rudolf> Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes: > > >> Emacs will prefer the XDG path if it exists and .emacs.d/init.el and > >> .emacs donʼt. Similarly Emacs will prefer .emacs.d/init.el if it > >> exists and .emacs doesnʼt. > > Rudolf> I wonder if it would make sense to warn during startup if more than one > Rudolf> of these files exist, something like: "Warning: multiple init files > Rudolf> detected. Using ~/.emacs as init file, ignoring ~/.emacs.d/init.el" > > A warning prominent enough for people to notice would also be annoying > enough that people would complain about us changing the status quo out > from under them. The best we could do is putting something in > *Messages*, I suspect A line in *Messages* was what I was thinking of, yes. Maybe conditional on a variable in case it turns out annoying for people who have shadowed init files on purpose and want to keep their *Messages* buffer clean. Or maybe a command `list-init-file-shadows' analogous to the existing `list-load-path-shadows'.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2021 16:21:44 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 07 12:21:44 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53320 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m1AIy-0003R9-0N for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 12:21:44 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]:42347) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>) id 1m1AIw-0003Qu-F0 for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 12:21:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1625674889; bh=WdLGyJC4HI8pzafVwFDeK6mYMaOpgr5NuKF/M9RTrMI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=FOuoVhjv//kQr0OVATxlGmJCrqOKT3sEaqtmwZCIS5abWUS/pBvnUqw/oQc8TIVPl r+gGcRr5w6MtJ8E+ZNbIq3SlbXM9US+/B7Sqzuyc+DXSRQxFuZvVFE18O2ZjKcng5J 3JQVYFJALnKjNXL0uUcUlFjNR1jyZXmlDzAkJh8U= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from strobelfs ([84.61.246.23]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MVNAr-1lZuHu10tT-00SNcJ; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 18:21:29 +0200 From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN> To: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <c98842368bd008b4e5b88e1863be4cd8@HIDDEN> <87sg0qb7ay.fsf@HIDDEN> <871r8a43jf.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0m2b31j.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2021 18:21:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87k0m2b31j.fsf@HIDDEN> (Robert Pluim's message of "Wed, 07 Jul 2021 16:40:24 +0200") Message-ID: <87wnq22iyg.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:rl/zrgJBDoe16jKcMOBvFmMmT5xoGsPFL7DESydhIhyCeHn0L/a uVFmfjjcLfF5XyEsb6kjKmeUwsLXvyl8urQUiyRpNh/PkEjx2hM3Xn/ZkyY6Fsi+2u9PS3R JO12IA0uPJKL06YGrpF181HRulHjaJHH/Wr0Pioxv0qKzHHks9faFbd+GlaG7xzy2dAK8/5 xEnNAfCa1E4AilVERskoQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:+YIvY/sFJhg=:82dO/z1n0T9OnSiF/ymhPh t7Vsp4q82CfEO/KcKfFaq1iE60yB+Cj1JxjbGnbIcacaDy2SDhKPzpnzHkLIyvEQ2jbhVXDWI tq9B53RfwiL6hAHYzWgKFxej3fdylzjlA5eRskFaCepnPFwpCb4ZM4fVNfPYCw62Kb6JylsDV ZeGz8y9Z7g5unOtFDy5uNEs31AypQZV0DLSHOy0gJEr2A9GG/0HhsW+pxt56pvKFCny6lJeII 51Nl/nDo5CQvgLGFxxaklI4n7ZcTIVzyaBuzx3jhVnpN82LnTOtXrNMCBEwvS2zZ4DkOx99QL aSe6p4KVt7YBZBsbVYA1QAH6ZSJIOVdvoGCFC4PQrCDCbwV0leUjYHQU8DuqWwA5p18gO5ZNj /ESDPqi/4LfQxA1BPTCZWob+PZ1uYkaftBQKyJ1sY/egee8GawKVHjoUoElfEwksvBIE5rzgA pJ5Alz2SwlTki+Wv+MJYbpF2KVWM1m+oU3HTMrhj3wtMB7eKM9rwwIc5kQVwkMf0hoOkTLl9t Cf+rVaXHRr0B0VsEgVHCazCTNgLF3aLgfv0q//TjdTZemuaOy1wD1ZlmYbWGNZuCdMHep1F8j Yi9wts2gA7LnDNCcITSnLMD8Li+ejWEEc0mGHjNvNPo8Z1y9Nww54I0+2kz7GxG1zGwTLTeBj mS/GWRjM9ubbmlgLGMDbTRIJXL8nqqLsSpEnF8UJKMoyLHsbOTsdh30Bi65by/6CeIIjFn8FP vyF5YNdkqz3fZKilduzdIP3oWEgUGMkAfexZILpq4v3uuzae14C1FPiecF7uYUYKPL9XYAMCM rAOyzEY2tmjuzVV9i/SxeMT3+t1tSVrBjrG0h2QarDu8rcA7tJPGLHaqERYP/nYtrvW0QANG+ ycN6xWmEn9VkBPQ/KU5zy/3FRJY8zFrPwM8SXNyK9z4csD8d/K0enPXseXNuHOJOW8XwyObu9 0HcY5xchG5mCeas84IHvn8DnplcSpW/vCGkfrH+ASfYyYgp2VV9UynqT81O9IURJuAjAHC/Rr xwg878YenAhPMA3G5eCJy95/5yaJ+rOH3Uf8XYNzjjV/frtWDh0mk/NCNSbgyPBPYKLIZIDzD 3qRiEQaGyEq3N0yDFJWhYdVS8PzRMnGFXJeWAYYZRAj4iH/ERWITLwBxg== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Wed, 07 Jul 2021 16:40:24 +0200 Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 07 Jul 2021 16:11:32 +0200, Stephen Berman > <stephen.berman@HIDDEN> said: > > Stephen> One thing I find useful about the current way is that I can = use ~/.emacs > Stephen> to carry out tests requiring (or facilitated by having) an i= nit file, > Stephen> without having to move or otherwise disable my actual init f= ile > Stephen> ~/.emacs.d/init.el. That benefit would be lost if the prior= ity was > Stephen> changed (or it would require making ~/.emacs the real init f= ile and > Stephen> using ~/.emacs.d/init.el for testing, which seems less appea= ling). > > Instead of 'no init files' -> .emacs, we=CA=BCd have 'no init files' -> > ~/.emacs.d/init.el > > That would not affect the existing search logic, which currently > prefers .emacs to ~/.emacs.d/init.el if it finds .emacs Ah, right. Then it's fine by me :-) Steve Berman
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
To: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<c98842368bd008b4e5b88e1863be4cd8@HIDDEN>
<87sg0qb7ay.fsf@HIDDEN> <871r8a43jf.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2021 16:40:24 +0200
In-Reply-To: <871r8a43jf.fsf@HIDDEN> (Stephen Berman's message of "Wed, 07
Jul 2021 16:11:32 +0200")
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Cc: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>,
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>>>>> On Wed, 07 Jul 2021 16:11:32 +0200, Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@gm=
x.net> said:
Stephen> One thing I find useful about the current way is that I can us=
e ~/.emacs
Stephen> to carry out tests requiring (or facilitated by having) an ini=
t file,
Stephen> without having to move or otherwise disable my actual init file
Stephen> ~/.emacs.d/init.el. That benefit would be lost if the priorit=
y was
Stephen> changed (or it would require making ~/.emacs the real init fil=
e and
Stephen> using ~/.emacs.d/init.el for testing, which seems less appeali=
ng).
Instead of 'no init files' -> .emacs, we=CA=BCd have 'no init files' ->
~/.emacs.d/init.el
That would not affect the existing search logic, which currently
prefers .emacs to ~/.emacs.d/init.el if it finds .emacs
Robert
--=20
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2021 14:11:51 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 07 10:11:51 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53152 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m18HG-0008Rm-P6 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 10:11:51 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:56087) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>) id 1m18HE-0008RU-Dk for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 10:11:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1625667094; bh=hb1MBdHMr/mI4gtf6KGJr4OmHMijBX2fFZ3pLtgc4U0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=N1ANVhP0+swBEiyXeL6gCcmSCIJnS6m1xGAe4UNXjRgS67HuaiTLKHunmMIXDmW30 pNOdSz0dMZzVqmmHQoexzasy6pSaZ0VJQZh/Ow+o4GkOUpVFR5QfyJPNSFnLma78+T pLufwNpiZpbYAdzhyPsrqttuiw4bnIRFFeybcLYs= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from strobelfs ([84.61.246.23]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MTAFb-1lc9BB0ylT-00UXC1; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 16:11:34 +0200 From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN> To: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> <c98842368bd008b4e5b88e1863be4cd8@HIDDEN> <87sg0qb7ay.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2021 16:11:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87sg0qb7ay.fsf@HIDDEN> (Robert Pluim's message of "Wed, 07 Jul 2021 15:08:21 +0200") Message-ID: <871r8a43jf.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:foDaRBWISWl+MD9yeKZBaxePoJVzZu/HCD/v0ime0ZvZN7DHtx4 D/EJJk2qDFKBsy48AitYt/A+y7u39dO097vpgsSqm8dyF1mje+F1ENqfs69S1hNA0KWEnZz 40JnjKn1KX2aMFUjHRBzlR0YWNUELAF6/Xx+cFuPTh3rJENhfJt5xqyeRuJ8Q8FyPhDtuPk 9AwUPgRjW/wcqTv4A1hYQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:huJbMR8tbIg=:xBcxDSAmMlAv8zHdY1Jdur 6Yb0lNq6Ba+oKa9yDjMBuvG6j+sgjThfPoUmNhd/C/w/lwySMrRhy+yRSEi/+60Esp5sq1CVf Mx41lMXVA5y8/xG0oQXGJZfmyLMZVbJPyLm4h8bJWN/EYfbOn8B7w0icMtqqAu78ezQYjCzoo NzHsxerKmv+DaOnoLTdIoGn8vjhyUdDDmpGMvO3jIO0y9ONhJOwUNsAQlW5Ya52+UORV18Uoo xTVsLGapoQozTCvk/M114eseyywrzeIdHfu/GdkcxmJM3wphl8keRPR13G75zwRXvacbJXTIL iQVSnB+803Ml2uM4ezU+mvH8cjX63yMqgCRP3VNPdQwCSrF2pEkZFPEVGomFsWcKzXkLXkLZc sDCp4GpfgDDWv5+ZQO5T5+N8NcgwlaOJuuB0aIFi5+DDmOpnW2Z1xfU9IGDH+xwVJ7KfLIrub FyRlz6H+K1P2YRvbidGtrog3IRc+LxFFIQVStsLHx3csiGgUaR74Ni+ZWVGPVkonqsOTrSiS3 R/n3qhcXcMSXKeoiZgcXVZbypO51b5qyBJpSsDfCaOmS2LmP9zwYLsMcdsQL/znUOfWFp+xni 6tQNtrREg2Tyy//rxYgOI2mrGZUthUocPcLEfy71BjG75O6yKahiDTIjcweTG2OGEMPFe2owM 3H3kAXNqNIRyak/DnWyqT5dTC1Mf00frLmA9BcrqHLE5vuGB8ZG4UdIXHSxy3d6/XiIuB9Saa meN8uEX5NXJQNROA+kY9VELIadJj8SZzkeBJsQVMBlez9izhQ5G3YeVA3Z90HAcqWgO07IxtV zR51F/99jdsoxBSNiKGo7OyWGWPk4vBS6pUKLz06chrqrC2wXizV13V+9tdFGlGubmhL84fvf HxFT5drrjqXOhaLZYPlt+k2IlBS6y7SBh9fWii+f4tMnBBGTmtrWBmQ2OhILwtAc+qykio8My QeJxYJ3ElOnKUi08+2hmUEQ/S7pLDu9IPnmv0lDtV+j7Xli64iy4A2bsV+izCgDD/9x/uLe9A cC3I3Y96KPqnVkYXlz9voKHlBtQcaXpbLj6B1iFF26mnltxbv8srLntK9JUDL5CXAfEOjY83A 9Fw9+2KX2xA1YpF1ZXcqL8Xlp3vZU3Wotqp9aMTQ9NO8qe/jqc5y3HFDQ== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Wed, 07 Jul 2021 15:08:21 +0200 Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 00:24:22 +1200, Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN= z> said: > > Phil> On 2021-07-07 21:17, Robert Pluim wrote: > >> If nothing exists, Emacs will create ~/.emacs.d, and use ~/.emacs = as > >> as the init file. We can change that to use ~/.emacs.d/init.el if = we > >> want, people who already have init files will not be affected. > >> </bold prediction of there being no consequences> > > Phil> I know of people who have ~/.emacs.d under version control (use= d on > Phil> multiple machines), and on some machines additionally have a ~/= .emacs > Phil> file for config which is local to that particular machine. The= .emacs > Phil> file simply loads the init.el file. > > That=CA=BCs a different branch of the startup logic :-) > > If we change things so that ~/.emacs.d/init.el is used only if there > is no .emacs, they would not be affected. I think this is already > the case, but I may be misremembering > > Phil> There are other ways of achieving the same thing; but I thought= this > Phil> one was quite a neat approach when I heard it. > > Phil> In other words, FYI some people's configs are definitely relian= t on > Phil> the current precedence order. > > Phil> In any case, while the sequence *could* be changed for those two > Phil> files, I don't think there's any notable benefit to doing so? = Even > Phil> ignoring cases like the one above, that change would undoubtedly > Phil> cause some confusion for no good reason. > > I=CA=BCm not proposing changing the sequence, only what happens in the ca= se > where there are no init files at all. It would eliminate the 'why is > emacs creating .emacs.d but then not using it' confusion. One thing I find useful about the current way is that I can use ~/.emacs to carry out tests requiring (or facilitated by having) an init file, without having to move or otherwise disable my actual init file ~/.emacs.d/init.el. That benefit would be lost if the priority was changed (or it would require making ~/.emacs the real init file and using ~/.emacs.d/init.el for testing, which seems less appealing). Steve Berman
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
To: Rudolf Schlatte <rudi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<m21r8az7kx.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2021 15:10:24 +0200
In-Reply-To: <m21r8az7kx.fsf@HIDDEN> (Rudolf Schlatte's message of
"Wed, 07 Jul 2021 13:28:30 +0200")
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>>>>> On Wed, 07 Jul 2021 13:28:30 +0200, Rudolf Schlatte <rudi@constantly.=
at> said:
Rudolf> Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes:
>> Emacs will prefer the XDG path if it exists and .emacs.d/init.el and
>> .emacs don=CA=BCt. Similarly Emacs will prefer .emacs.d/init.el if it
>> exists and .emacs doesn=CA=BCt.
Rudolf> I wonder if it would make sense to warn during startup if more =
than one
Rudolf> of these files exist, something like: "Warning: multiple init f=
iles
Rudolf> detected. Using ~/.emacs as init file, ignoring ~/.emacs.d/ini=
t.el"
A warning prominent enough for people to notice would also be annoying
enough that people would complain about us changing the status quo out
from under them. The best we could do is putting something in
*Messages*, I suspect
Robert
--=20
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
To: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<c98842368bd008b4e5b88e1863be4cd8@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2021 15:08:21 +0200
In-Reply-To: <c98842368bd008b4e5b88e1863be4cd8@HIDDEN> (Phil
Sainty's message of "Thu, 08 Jul 2021 00:24:22 +1200")
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>>>>> On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 00:24:22 +1200, Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN=
> said:
Phil> On 2021-07-07 21:17, Robert Pluim wrote:
>> If nothing exists, Emacs will create ~/.emacs.d, and use ~/.emacs as
>> as the init file. We can change that to use ~/.emacs.d/init.el if we
>> want, people who already have init files will not be affected.
>> </bold prediction of there being no consequences>
Phil> I know of people who have ~/.emacs.d under version control (used =
on
Phil> multiple machines), and on some machines additionally have a ~/.e=
macs
Phil> file for config which is local to that particular machine. The .=
emacs
Phil> file simply loads the init.el file.
That=CA=BCs a different branch of the startup logic :-)
If we change things so that ~/.emacs.d/init.el is used only if there
is no .emacs, they would not be affected. I think this is already
the case, but I may be misremembering
Phil> There are other ways of achieving the same thing; but I thought t=
his
Phil> one was quite a neat approach when I heard it.
Phil> In other words, FYI some people's configs are definitely reliant =
on
Phil> the current precedence order.
Phil> In any case, while the sequence *could* be changed for those two
Phil> files, I don't think there's any notable benefit to doing so? Ev=
en
Phil> ignoring cases like the one above, that change would undoubtedly
Phil> cause some confusion for no good reason.
I=CA=BCm not proposing changing the sequence, only what happens in the case
where there are no init files at all. It would eliminate the 'why is
emacs creating .emacs.d but then not using it' confusion.
Robert
--=20
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 49424) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2021 12:24:32 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 07 08:24:31 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51051 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m16bP-00054G-ME for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 08:24:31 -0400 Received: from smtp-1.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.34]:43749) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <psainty@HIDDEN>) id 1m16bL-000541-6h for 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 08:24:30 -0400 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=49207 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-1.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <psainty@HIDDEN>) id 1m16bG-0007k7-E6; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 00:24:22 +1200 Received: from ip-116-251-162-85.kinect.net.nz ([116.251.162.85]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Thu, 08 Jul 2021 00:24:22 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 00:24:22 +1200 From: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> To: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file In-Reply-To: <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <c98842368bd008b4e5b88e1863be4cd8@HIDDEN> X-Sender: psainty@HIDDEN User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 49424 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>, 49424 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2021-07-07 21:17, Robert Pluim wrote: > If nothing exists, Emacs will create ~/.emacs.d, and use ~/.emacs as > as the init file. We can change that to use ~/.emacs.d/init.el if we > want, people who already have init files will not be affected. > </bold prediction of there being no consequences> I know of people who have ~/.emacs.d under version control (used on multiple machines), and on some machines additionally have a ~/.emacs file for config which is local to that particular machine. The .emacs file simply loads the init.el file. There are other ways of achieving the same thing; but I thought this one was quite a neat approach when I heard it. In other words, FYI some people's configs are definitely reliant on the current precedence order. In any case, while the sequence *could* be changed for those two files, I don't think there's any notable benefit to doing so? Even ignoring cases like the one above, that change would undoubtedly cause some confusion for no good reason. -Phil
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2021 11:31:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 07 07:31:18 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51005 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1m15lt-0002if-Vy for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 07:31:18 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:54118) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1m15lq-0002fh-HX for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 07:31:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34350) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1m15lq-0006ze-9Z for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 07:31:14 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:58356) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1m15lo-0005tX-MV for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 07:31:14 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1m15lk-000AKQ-Ok for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 13:31:08 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: Rudolf Schlatte <rudi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2021 13:28:30 +0200 Message-ID: <m21r8az7kx.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zguybhzw.fsf@HIDDEN> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:05CoOOrL84W9U07R8DCpY28Eh9U= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes: >>>>>> On Tue, 06 Jul 2021 17:11:38 +0200, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> said: > > Lars> Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> writes: > >> The info page “49.4.4 How Emacs Finds Your Init File” says: > >> > >>> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just > >>> the current default location ‘~/.emacs.d/init.el’ for the init file. > >> > >> However, this seems to be inaccurate: if I start Emacs as a new user > >> and make a customisation, that customisation is written to ~/.emacs. > > Yes, we should change that to say '~/.emacs' > > Lars> That is indeed the case still in Emacs 28 -- I thought we'd changed that > Lars> to prefer either XDG paths or ~/.emacs.d/init.el when there's no > Lars> previous init file? > > Emacs will prefer the XDG path if it exists and .emacs.d/init.el and > .emacs donʼt. Similarly Emacs will prefer .emacs.d/init.el if it > exists and .emacs doesnʼt. I wonder if it would make sense to warn during startup if more than one of these files exist, something like: "Warning: multiple init files detected. Using ~/.emacs as init file, ignoring ~/.emacs.d/init.el"
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2021 11:17:23 +0200
In-Reply-To: <87bl7fscid.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Tue,
06 Jul 2021 17:11:38 +0200")
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>>>>> On Tue, 06 Jul 2021 17:11:38 +0200, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN=
> said:
Lars> Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> writes:
>> The info page =E2=80=9C49.4.4 How Emacs Finds Your Init File=E2=80=
=9D says:
>>=20
>>> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just
>>> the current default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=99 f=
or the init file.
>>=20
>> However, this seems to be inaccurate: if I start Emacs as a new user
>> and make a customisation, that customisation is written to ~/.emacs.
Yes, we should change that to say '~/.emacs'
Lars> That is indeed the case still in Emacs 28 -- I thought we'd chang=
ed that
Lars> to prefer either XDG paths or ~/.emacs.d/init.el when there's no
Lars> previous init file?
Emacs will prefer the XDG path if it exists and .emacs.d/init.el and
.emacs don=CA=BCt. Similarly Emacs will prefer .emacs.d/init.el if it
exists and .emacs doesn=CA=BCt.
If nothing exists, Emacs will create ~/.emacs.d, and use ~/.emacs as
the init file. We can change that to use ~/.emacs.d/init.el if we
want, people who already have init files will not be affected.
</bold prediction of there being no consequences>
Robert
--=20
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From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
To: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#49424: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file
References: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2021 17:11:38 +0200
In-Reply-To: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> (Peter Oliver's
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Content preview: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> writes: > The info
page “49.4.4 How Emacs Finds Your Init File” says: > >> For brevity the
rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just >> the current default
location ‘~/.emacs.d/init.el’ for [...]
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Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> writes:
> The info page =E2=80=9C49.4.4 How Emacs Finds Your Init File=E2=80=9D say=
s:
>
>> For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just
>> the current default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=99 for th=
e init file.
>
> However, this seems to be inaccurate: if I start Emacs as a new user
> and make a customisation, that customisation is written to ~/.emacs.
That is indeed the case still in Emacs 28 -- I thought we'd changed that
to prefer either XDG paths or ~/.emacs.d/init.el when there's no
previous init file?
--=20
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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[82.37.201.33]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y8sm14381043wrr.76.2021.07.05.15.57.02 for <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 05 Jul 2021 15:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 165Mv16R051609 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>; Mon, 5 Jul 2021 23:57:01 +0100 Received: (from mavit@localhost) by froglet.home.mavit.org.uk (8.16.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 165Mv1XC051608; Mon, 5 Jul 2021 23:57:01 +0100 From: Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN> To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Subject: 27.2; Misdocumented default initialisation file Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2021 23:56:50 +0100 Message-ID: <w53wnq4id3h.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::430; envelope-from=mavit@HIDDEN; helo=mail-wr1-x430.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) The info page =E2=80=9C49.4.4 How Emacs Finds Your Init File=E2=80=9D says: > For brevity the rest of the Emacs documentation generally uses just > the current default location =E2=80=98~/.emacs.d/init.el=E2=80=99 for the= init file. However, this seems to be inaccurate: if I start Emacs as a new user and ma= ke a customisation, that customisation is written to ~/.emacs.=20=20 In GNU Emacs 27.2 (build 1, x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.29, = cairo version 1.17.4) of 2021-05-25 built on 67aec83703474aab90196a48063fea20 Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12011000 System Description: Fedora 34 (Workstation Edition) Configured using: 'configure --build=3Dx86_64-redhat-linux-gnu --host=3Dx86_64-redhat-linux-gnu --program-prefix=3D --disable-dependency-tracking --prefix=3D/usr --exec-prefix=3D/usr --bindir=3D/usr/bin --sbindir=3D/usr/sbin --sysconfdir=3D/etc --datadir=3D/usr/share --includedir=3D/usr/include --libdir=3D/usr/lib64 --libexecdir=3D/usr/libexec --localstatedir=3D/var --sharedstatedir=3D/var/lib --mandir=3D/usr/share/man --infodir=3D/usr/share/info --with-dbus --with-gif --with-jpeg --with-png --with-rsvg --with-tiff --with-xft --with-xpm --with-x-toolkit=3Dgtk3 --with-gpm=3Dno --with-xwidgets --with-modules --with-harfbuzz --with-cairo --with-json build_alias=3Dx86_64-redhat-linux-gnu host_alias=3Dx86_64-redhat-linux-gnu CC=3Dgcc 'CFLAGS=3D-DMAIL_USE_LOCKF -= O2 -flto=3Dauto -ffat-lto-objects -fexceptions -g -grecord-gcc-switches -pipe -Wall -Werror=3Dformat-security -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=3D2 -Wp,-D_GLIBCXX_ASSERTIONS -specs=3D/usr/lib/rpm/redhat/redhat-hardened-cc1 -fstack-protector-strong -specs=3D/usr/lib/rpm/redhat/redhat-annobin-cc1 -m64 -mtune=3Dgeneric -fasynchronous-unwind-tables -fstack-clash-protection -fcf-protection' LDFLAGS=3D-Wl,-z,relro PKG_CONFIG_PATH=3D:/usr/lib64/pkgconfig:/usr/share/pkgconfig' Configured features: XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG CAIRO SOUND DBUS GSETTINGS GLIB NOTIFY INOTIFY ACL LIBSELINUX GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE HARFBUZZ M17N_FLT LIBOTF ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 XDBE XIM MODULES THREADS XWIDGETS LIBSYSTEMD JSON PDUMPER GMP --=20 Peter Oliver
Peter Oliver <p.d.oliver@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#49424; Package emacs.
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