GNU bug report logs - #4960
23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

Previous Next

To add a comment to this bug, you must first unarchive it, by sending
a message to control AT debbugs.gnu.org, with unarchive 4960 in the body.
You can then email your comments to 4960 AT debbugs.gnu.org in the normal way.

Toggle the display of automated, internal messages from the tracker.

Message #5 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>
To: emacs-pretest-bug <at> gnu.org
Subject: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; 
	preferably ship it also
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:15:32 -0500

Hi,

Please provide access to the Emacs guided tour on the Emacs' Help
menu.  Preferably as the first item on the menu, since it is more
useful than the tutorial.

Preferably by shipping the full tour as part of Emacs, and providing
shortcuts to launch it, like the Lisp code for XEmacs at
http://ftp.xemacs.org/pub/xemacs/beta/experimental/packages/guided-tour-0.52-pkg.tar.gz
does.  Or you can ship a text version of the tour, perhaps produced by
the "lynx -dump" command or some HTML-to-text converter as part of
your build procedure; but make sure to tack on a message at the
beginning telling users how to get to the full version on the Web.

Thanks in advance,
-Jason

In GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600)
 of 2009-10-15 on LENNART-69DE564
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600

-- 
Jason Spiro: software/web developer, packager, trainer, IT consultant.
I support Linux, UNIX, Windows, and more. Contact me to discuss your needs.
+1 (416) 992-3445 / www.jspiro.com

Message #10 received at 4960 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:03:29 -0500

Previous discussion:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html

Message #15 received at 4960 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help 
	menu; preferably ship it also
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:27:07 +0100

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> Previous discussion:
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html

There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the way
Drew suggested:

  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html

Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that opened
something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never understood why.
Is not that very common?

I suggest we change the Help menu as discussed there.

Message #20 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj <at> email.unc.edu>
To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>,
        4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-submit-list <at> donarmstrong.com
Cc: Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:34:11 -0500

>>>>> "Lennart" == Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com> writes:

    > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> wrote:
    >> Previous discussion:
    >> 
    >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html

    > There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the
    > way Drew suggested:

    >   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html

    > Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that
    > opened something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never
    > understood why.  Is not that very common?

It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's good.  I find myself rather
unnerved when I go to a help Menu expecting to find some *help
documentation* and instead get sent to a website that acts mainly as
advertisement.

Of course in the case of Emacs it would be a link to something useful.
However, users should be made fully aware that they will be opening a
web browser.  And what would you do to make sure the browser is properly
configured?

Joel
-- 
Joel J. Adamson	-- http://www.unc.edu/~adamsonj
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB #3280, Coker Hall
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3280

Message #25 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj <at> email.unc.edu>
To: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:35:42 -0500

>>>>> "Jason" == Jason A Spiro <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com> writes:

    > Hi, Please provide access to the Emacs guided tour on the Emacs'
    > Help menu.  Preferably as the first item on the menu, since it is
    > more useful than the tutorial.

The tour shows features of Emacs, the tutorial shows you how to use the
basic editing commands.  How is one "more useful" than the other?  I
agree that the tour is more useful if you're deciding whether to use
Emacs, but if you've already installed Emacs, you need to know how to
use it in order to get at those features.

Joel
-- 
Joel J. Adamson	-- http://www.unc.edu/~adamsonj
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB #3280, Coker Hall
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3280

Message #35 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>
To: "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj <at> email.unc.edu>
Cc: 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-submit-list <at> donarmstrong.com,
        Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help 
	menu; preferably ship it also
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:06:10 +0100

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Joel J. Adamson <adamsonj <at> email.unc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> "Lennart" == Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
>    > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> wrote:
>    >> Previous discussion:
>    >>
>    >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html
>
>    > There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the
>    > way Drew suggested:
>
>    >   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html
>
>    > Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that
>    > opened something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never
>    > understood why.  Is not that very common?
>
> It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's good.  I find myself rather
> unnerved when I go to a help Menu expecting to find some *help
> documentation* and instead get sent to a website that acts mainly as
> advertisement.
>
> Of course in the case of Emacs it would be a link to something useful.
> However, users should be made fully aware that they will be opening a
> web browser.  And what would you do to make sure the browser is properly
> configured?


Maybe show the link in the menu title too or at least in the tool tip?
Since it is an official Emacs site people do not have to worry. And if
the link is displayed in the message buffer when trying to open the
site then it is easy to paste it if opening the web browser fails.

Message #45 received at 4960 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>
To: "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj <at> email.unc.edu>,
        4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help 
	menu; preferably ship it also
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:08:34 +0100

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Joel J. Adamson <adamsonj <at> email.unc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> "Jason" == Jason A Spiro <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
>    > Hi, Please provide access to the Emacs guided tour on the Emacs'
>    > Help menu.  Preferably as the first item on the menu, since it is
>    > more useful than the tutorial.
>
> The tour shows features of Emacs, the tutorial shows you how to use the
> basic editing commands.  How is one "more useful" than the other?  I
> agree that the tour is more useful if you're deciding whether to use
> Emacs, but if you've already installed Emacs, you need to know how to
> use it in order to get at those features.


You might be showing Emacs to someone. Since it is at least on some
systems easy to install you could use the tour to decide if you want
to use Emacs for what you currently want to do. It may also give you
inspirations for new ways to use Emacs.

Message #50 received at 4960 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help  menu; preferably ship it also
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:32:07 +0200

>> Previous discussion:
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html
>
> There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the way
> Drew suggested:
>
>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html
>
> Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that opened
> something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never understood why.
> Is not that very common?
>
> I suggest we change the Help menu as discussed there.

The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)

BTW, I noticed that the About screen doesn't say that the link
will start the browser (like it says on the startup screen).
Here is a fix:

Index: lisp/startup.el
===================================================================
RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
retrieving revision 1.550
diff -u -r1.550 startup.el
--- lisp/startup.el	6 Nov 2009 05:16:28 -0000	1.550
+++ lisp/startup.el	20 Nov 2009 09:31:21 -0000
@@ -1371,7 +1371,7 @@
      :link ("Emacs Guided Tour"
 	    (lambda (button) (browse-url "http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/"))
 	    "Browse http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/")
-     "\tSee an overview of the many facilities of GNU Emacs"
+     "\tSee an overview of Emacs facilities at gnu.org"
      ))
   "A list of texts to show in the middle part of the About screen.
 Each element in the list should be a list of strings or pairs

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Message #55 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Kevin Rodgers <kevin.d.rodgers <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50;   Please provide access to the tour on the
 Help  menu;   preferably ship it also
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:53:01 -0700

Juri Linkov wrote:
> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)
> 
> BTW, I noticed that the About screen doesn't say that the link
> will start the browser (like it says on the startup screen).
> Here is a fix:
> 
> Index: lisp/startup.el
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
> retrieving revision 1.550
> diff -u -r1.550 startup.el
> --- lisp/startup.el	6 Nov 2009 05:16:28 -0000	1.550
> +++ lisp/startup.el	20 Nov 2009 09:31:21 -0000
> @@ -1371,7 +1371,7 @@
>       :link ("Emacs Guided Tour"
>  	    (lambda (button) (browse-url "http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/"))
>  	    "Browse http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/")
> -     "\tSee an overview of the many facilities of GNU Emacs"
> +     "\tSee an overview of Emacs facilities at gnu.org"
>       ))
>    "A list of texts to show in the middle part of the About screen.
>  Each element in the list should be a list of strings or pairs

Although I appreciate the connotation of "facilities",  I think "features"
would be better understood by curious new users.

And if you want to emphasize that the button is a link to the World Wide
Web, why not "http://www.gnu.org" instead of just "gnu.org"?

-- 
Kevin Rodgers
Denver, Colorado, USA

Message #60 received at 4960 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
To: Kevin Rodgers <kevin.d.rodgers <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help  menu; preferably ship it also
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:14:12 +0200

>> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
>> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
>> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)
>>
>> BTW, I noticed that the About screen doesn't say that the link
>> will start the browser (like it says on the startup screen).
>> Here is a fix:
>>
>> Index: lisp/startup.el
>> ===================================================================
>> RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
>> retrieving revision 1.550
>> diff -u -r1.550 startup.el
>> --- lisp/startup.el	6 Nov 2009 05:16:28 -0000	1.550
>> +++ lisp/startup.el	20 Nov 2009 09:31:21 -0000
>> @@ -1371,7 +1371,7 @@
>>       :link ("Emacs Guided Tour"
>>  	    (lambda (button) (browse-url "http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/"))
>>  	    "Browse http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/")
>> -     "\tSee an overview of the many facilities of GNU Emacs"
>> +     "\tSee an overview of Emacs facilities at gnu.org"
>>       ))
>>    "A list of texts to show in the middle part of the About screen.
>>  Each element in the list should be a list of strings or pairs
>
> Although I appreciate the connotation of "facilities",  I think "features"
> would be better understood by curious new users.

I agree.

> And if you want to emphasize that the button is a link to the World Wide
> Web, why not "http://www.gnu.org" instead of just "gnu.org"?

"http://www.gnu.org" is more than twice longer than "gnu.org".

And if we write it as a full URL, it would be natural make it a link
as well, but we have the same link on the text "Emacs Guided Tour" already.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Message #65 received at 4960 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
Cc: 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help 
	menu; preferably ship it also
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:06:04 +0100

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> wrote:
>>> Previous discussion:
>>>
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html
>>
>> There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the way
>> Drew suggested:
>>
>>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html
>>
>> Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that opened
>> something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never understood why.
>> Is not that very common?
>>
>> I suggest we change the Help menu as discussed there.
>
> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)

It does not provide any tour (if you do not run it).
It does not provide any insight (if you don't want it).
It does not provide any news (if you already know).
It does not ...

You can't seriously mean that, or? ;-)

Message #68 received at 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>,
 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the
 Help  menu; preferably ship it also
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:28:57 +0200

Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> writes:

>>> Previous discussion:
>>>
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html
>>
>> There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the way
>> Drew suggested:
>>
>>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html
>>
>> Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that opened
>> something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never understood why.
>> Is not that very common?
>>
>> I suggest we change the Help menu as discussed there.
>
> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)

I think this is the correct conclusion.  Does anyone object to closing
this bug?

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #73 received at 4960-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>,
 4960-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help
 menu; preferably ship it also
Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 10:58:10 -0400

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

>> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
>> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
>> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)
>
> I think this is the correct conclusion.  Does anyone object to closing
> this bug?

No objections within 2 weeks, so I'm closing this bug.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Previous Next

GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997,2003 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.