GNU bug report logs - #4960
23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also

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Package: emacs; Severity: wishlist; Reported by: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>; dated Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:25:05 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

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	<ljeinvuejy.fsf@HIDDEN> <e01d8a50911190427h6e2f8c1brca105a869e0b7a08@HIDDEN> 
	<87ws1lzksg.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:06:04 +0100
Message-ID: <e01d8a50911200406x5ce4395aw1a394e25b49a3c3b@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help 
	menu; preferably ship it also
To: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
Cc: 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN>
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On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>> Previous discussion:
>>>
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html
>>
>> There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the way
>> Drew suggested:
>>
>> =C2=A0 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.ht=
ml
>>
>> Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that opened
>> something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never understood why.
>> Is not that very common?
>>
>> I suggest we change the Help menu as discussed there.
>
> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
> It doesn't provide any help. =C2=A0So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)

It does not provide any tour (if you do not run it).
It does not provide any insight (if you don't want it).
It does not provide any news (if you already know).
It does not ...

You can't seriously mean that, or? ;-)



Acknowledgement sent to Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 4960@HIDDEN:


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From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
To: Kevin Rodgers <kevin.d.rodgers@HIDDEN>
Cc: 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help  menu; preferably ship it also
Organization: JURTA
References: <c241693f0911181915n2b264865l2f957043d93ee337@HIDDEN>
	<ljeinvuejy.fsf@HIDDEN>
	<e01d8a50911190427h6e2f8c1brca105a869e0b7a08@HIDDEN>
	<87ws1lzksg.fsf@HIDDEN> <he5se6$6cs$1@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:14:12 +0200
In-Reply-To: <he5se6$6cs$1@HIDDEN> (Kevin Rodgers's message of "Fri, 20
	Nov 2009 03:53:01 -0700")
Message-ID: <87y6m1whdf.fsf@HIDDEN>
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>> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
>> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
>> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)
>>
>> BTW, I noticed that the About screen doesn't say that the link
>> will start the browser (like it says on the startup screen).
>> Here is a fix:
>>
>> Index: lisp/startup.el
>> ===================================================================
>> RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
>> retrieving revision 1.550
>> diff -u -r1.550 startup.el
>> --- lisp/startup.el	6 Nov 2009 05:16:28 -0000	1.550
>> +++ lisp/startup.el	20 Nov 2009 09:31:21 -0000
>> @@ -1371,7 +1371,7 @@
>>       :link ("Emacs Guided Tour"
>>  	    (lambda (button) (browse-url "http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/"))
>>  	    "Browse http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/")
>> -     "\tSee an overview of the many facilities of GNU Emacs"
>> +     "\tSee an overview of Emacs facilities at gnu.org"
>>       ))
>>    "A list of texts to show in the middle part of the About screen.
>>  Each element in the list should be a list of strings or pairs
>
> Although I appreciate the connotation of "facilities",  I think "features"
> would be better understood by curious new users.

I agree.

> And if you want to emphasize that the button is a link to the World Wide
> Web, why not "http://www.gnu.org" instead of just "gnu.org"?

"http://www.gnu.org" is more than twice longer than "gnu.org".

And if we write it as a full URL, it would be natural make it a link
as well, but we have the same link on the text "Emacs Guided Tour" already.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/



Acknowledgement sent to Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Kevin Rodgers <kevin.d.rodgers@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50;   Please provide access to the tour on the
 Help  menu;   preferably ship it also
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:53:01 -0700
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Juri Linkov wrote:
> The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
> It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
> We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)
> 
> BTW, I noticed that the About screen doesn't say that the link
> will start the browser (like it says on the startup screen).
> Here is a fix:
> 
> Index: lisp/startup.el
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
> retrieving revision 1.550
> diff -u -r1.550 startup.el
> --- lisp/startup.el	6 Nov 2009 05:16:28 -0000	1.550
> +++ lisp/startup.el	20 Nov 2009 09:31:21 -0000
> @@ -1371,7 +1371,7 @@
>       :link ("Emacs Guided Tour"
>  	    (lambda (button) (browse-url "http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/"))
>  	    "Browse http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/")
> -     "\tSee an overview of the many facilities of GNU Emacs"
> +     "\tSee an overview of Emacs facilities at gnu.org"
>       ))
>    "A list of texts to show in the middle part of the About screen.
>  Each element in the list should be a list of strings or pairs

Although I appreciate the connotation of "facilities",  I think "features"
would be better understood by curious new users.

And if you want to emphasize that the button is a link to the World Wide
Web, why not "http://www.gnu.org" instead of just "gnu.org"?

-- 
Kevin Rodgers
Denver, Colorado, USA





Acknowledgement sent to Kevin Rodgers <kevin.d.rodgers@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 4960@HIDDEN:


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From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Cc: 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help  menu; preferably ship it also
Organization: JURTA
References: <c241693f0911181915n2b264865l2f957043d93ee337@HIDDEN>
	<ljeinvuejy.fsf@HIDDEN>
	<e01d8a50911190427h6e2f8c1brca105a869e0b7a08@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:32:07 +0200
In-Reply-To: <e01d8a50911190427h6e2f8c1brca105a869e0b7a08@HIDDEN>
	(Lennart Borgman's message of "Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:27:07 +0100")
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>> Previous discussion:
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html
>
> There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the way
> Drew suggested:
>
>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html
>
> Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that opened
> something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never understood why.
> Is not that very common?
>
> I suggest we change the Help menu as discussed there.

The Web Guided Tour is an advertisement of Emacs features.
It doesn't provide any help.  So the "Help" menu is not appropriate.
We could create a new menu "Ads" ;-)

BTW, I noticed that the About screen doesn't say that the link
will start the browser (like it says on the startup screen).
Here is a fix:

Index: lisp/startup.el
===================================================================
RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
retrieving revision 1.550
diff -u -r1.550 startup.el
--- lisp/startup.el	6 Nov 2009 05:16:28 -0000	1.550
+++ lisp/startup.el	20 Nov 2009 09:31:21 -0000
@@ -1371,7 +1371,7 @@
      :link ("Emacs Guided Tour"
 	    (lambda (button) (browse-url "http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/"))
 	    "Browse http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/")
-     "\tSee an overview of the many facilities of GNU Emacs"
+     "\tSee an overview of Emacs facilities at gnu.org"
      ))
   "A list of texts to show in the middle part of the About screen.
 Each element in the list should be a list of strings or pairs

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/



Acknowledgement sent to Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 4960@HIDDEN:


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	<16352.1258637742@HIDDEN>
From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:08:34 +0100
Message-ID: <e01d8a50911190608t7579b7fbqdbc0b86039072731@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help 
	menu; preferably ship it also
To: "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj@HIDDEN>,
        4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
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On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Joel J. Adamson <adamsonj@HIDDEN> w=
rote:
>>>>>> "Jason" =3D=3D Jason A Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Hi, Please provide access to the Emacs guided tour on the =
Emacs'
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Help menu. =C2=A0Preferably as the first item on the menu,=
 since it is
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> more useful than the tutorial.
>
> The tour shows features of Emacs, the tutorial shows you how to use the
> basic editing commands. =C2=A0How is one "more useful" than the other? =
=C2=A0I
> agree that the tour is more useful if you're deciding whether to use
> Emacs, but if you've already installed Emacs, you need to know how to
> use it in order to get at those features.


You might be showing Emacs to someone. Since it is at least on some
systems easy to install you could use the tour to decide if you want
to use Emacs for what you currently want to do. It may also give you
inspirations for new ways to use Emacs.



Acknowledgement sent to Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 4960@HIDDEN:


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References: <c241693f0911181915n2b264865l2f957043d93ee337@HIDDEN> 
	<ljeinvuejy.fsf@HIDDEN> <e01d8a50911190427h6e2f8c1brca105a869e0b7a08@HIDDEN> 
	<16272.1258637651@HIDDEN>
From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:06:10 +0100
Message-ID: <e01d8a50911190606ofec71bka73b13f3d570a65e@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help 
	menu; preferably ship it also
To: "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj@HIDDEN>
Cc: 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-submit-list@HIDDEN,
        Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Joel J. Adamson <adamsonj@HIDDEN> w=
rote:
>>>>>> "Lennart" =3D=3D Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN=
> wrote:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> Previous discussion:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg=
00120.html
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help =
menu the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> way Drew suggested:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =C2=A0 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-=
11/msg00158.html
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item th=
at
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> opened something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I neve=
r
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> understood why. =C2=A0Is not that very common?
>
> It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's good. =C2=A0I find myself ra=
ther
> unnerved when I go to a help Menu expecting to find some *help
> documentation* and instead get sent to a website that acts mainly as
> advertisement.
>
> Of course in the case of Emacs it would be a link to something useful.
> However, users should be made fully aware that they will be opening a
> web browser. =C2=A0And what would you do to make sure the browser is prop=
erly
> configured?


Maybe show the link in the menu title too or at least in the tool tip?
Since it is an official Emacs site people do not have to worry. And if
the link is displayed in the message buffer when trying to open the
site then it is easy to paste it if opening the web browser fails.



Acknowledgement sent to Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at submit@HIDDEN:


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References: <c241693f0911181915n2b264865l2f957043d93ee337@HIDDEN> 
	<ljeinvuejy.fsf@HIDDEN> <e01d8a50911190427h6e2f8c1brca105a869e0b7a08@HIDDEN> 
	<16272.1258637651@HIDDEN>
From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:06:10 +0100
Message-ID: <e01d8a50911190606ofec71bka73b13f3d570a65e@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help 
	menu; preferably ship it also
To: "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj@HIDDEN>
Cc: 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-submit-list@HIDDEN,
        Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Joel J. Adamson <adamsonj@HIDDEN> w=
rote:
>>>>>> "Lennart" =3D=3D Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN=
> wrote:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> Previous discussion:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg=
00120.html
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help =
menu the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> way Drew suggested:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =C2=A0 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-=
11/msg00158.html
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item th=
at
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> opened something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I neve=
r
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> understood why. =C2=A0Is not that very common?
>
> It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's good. =C2=A0I find myself ra=
ther
> unnerved when I go to a help Menu expecting to find some *help
> documentation* and instead get sent to a website that acts mainly as
> advertisement.
>
> Of course in the case of Emacs it would be a link to something useful.
> However, users should be made fully aware that they will be opening a
> web browser. =C2=A0And what would you do to make sure the browser is prop=
erly
> configured?


Maybe show the link in the menu title too or at least in the tool tip?
Since it is an official Emacs site people do not have to worry. And if
the link is displayed in the message buffer when trying to open the
site then it is easy to paste it if opening the web browser fails.




Acknowledgement sent to Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 4960@HIDDEN:


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From adamsonj@HIDDEN Thu Nov 19 05:34:16 2009
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From: "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj@HIDDEN>
To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>,
        4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-submit-list@HIDDEN
cc: Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also
In-reply-to: <e01d8a50911190427h6e2f8c1brca105a869e0b7a08@HIDDEN>
References: <c241693f0911181915n2b264865l2f957043d93ee337@HIDDEN> <ljeinvuejy.fsf@HIDDEN> <e01d8a50911190427h6e2f8c1brca105a869e0b7a08@HIDDEN>
Comments: In-reply-to Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
   message dated "Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:27:07 +0100."
Organization: University of North Carolina
X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3; GNU Emacs 23.1.50
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:34:11 -0500
Message-ID: <16272.1258637651@HIDDEN>

>>>>> "Lennart" == Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> writes:

    > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN> wrote:
    >> Previous discussion:
    >> 
    >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html

    > There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the
    > way Drew suggested:

    >   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html

    > Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that
    > opened something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never
    > understood why.  Is not that very common?

It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's good.  I find myself rather
unnerved when I go to a help Menu expecting to find some *help
documentation* and instead get sent to a website that acts mainly as
advertisement.

Of course in the case of Emacs it would be a link to something useful.
However, users should be made fully aware that they will be opening a
web browser.  And what would you do to make sure the browser is properly
configured?

Joel
-- 
Joel J. Adamson	-- http://www.unc.edu/~adamsonj
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB #3280, Coker Hall
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3280



Acknowledgement sent to "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at submit@HIDDEN:


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	Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:35:42 -0500
From: "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj@HIDDEN>
To: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
cc: Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also
In-reply-to: <c241693f0911181915n2b264865l2f957043d93ee337@HIDDEN>
References: <c241693f0911181915n2b264865l2f957043d93ee337@HIDDEN>
Comments: In-reply-to "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
   message dated "Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:15:32 -0500."
Organization: University of North Carolina
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>>>>> "Jason" == Jason A Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> writes:

    > Hi, Please provide access to the Emacs guided tour on the Emacs'
    > Help menu.  Preferably as the first item on the menu, since it is
    > more useful than the tutorial.

The tour shows features of Emacs, the tutorial shows you how to use the
basic editing commands.  How is one "more useful" than the other?  I
agree that the tour is more useful if you're deciding whether to use
Emacs, but if you've already installed Emacs, you need to know how to
use it in order to get at those features.

Joel
-- 
Joel J. Adamson	-- http://www.unc.edu/~adamsonj
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB #3280, Coker Hall
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3280




Acknowledgement sent to "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at submit@HIDDEN:


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From: "Joel J. Adamson" <adamsonj@HIDDEN>
To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>,
        4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-submit-list@HIDDEN
cc: Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also
In-reply-to: <e01d8a50911190427h6e2f8c1brca105a869e0b7a08@HIDDEN>
References: <c241693f0911181915n2b264865l2f957043d93ee337@HIDDEN> <ljeinvuejy.fsf@HIDDEN> <e01d8a50911190427h6e2f8c1brca105a869e0b7a08@HIDDEN>
Comments: In-reply-to Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
   message dated "Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:27:07 +0100."
Organization: University of North Carolina
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>>>>> "Lennart" == Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> writes:

    > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN> wrote:
    >> Previous discussion:
    >> 
    >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html

    > There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the
    > way Drew suggested:

    >   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html

    > Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that
    > opened something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never
    > understood why.  Is not that very common?

It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's good.  I find myself rather
unnerved when I go to a help Menu expecting to find some *help
documentation* and instead get sent to a website that acts mainly as
advertisement.

Of course in the case of Emacs it would be a link to something useful.
However, users should be made fully aware that they will be opening a
web browser.  And what would you do to make sure the browser is properly
configured?

Joel
-- 
Joel J. Adamson	-- http://www.unc.edu/~adamsonj
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB #3280, Coker Hall
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3280




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Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 4960@HIDDEN:


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	<ljeinvuejy.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:27:07 +0100
Message-ID: <e01d8a50911190427h6e2f8c1brca105a869e0b7a08@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help 
	menu; preferably ship it also
To: Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN>, 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN> wrote:
> Previous discussion:
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html

There seemed to be a consensus to change part of the Help menu the way
Drew suggested:

  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00158.html

Though Stefan and someone else thought that a menu item that opened
something in a web browser felt a bit wrong. I never understood why.
Is not that very common?

I suggest we change the Help menu as discussed there.



Acknowledgement sent to Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 4960@HIDDEN:


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From: Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN>
To: 4960 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4960: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; preferably ship it also
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	(Jason A. Spiro's message of "Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:15:32 -0500")
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Previous discussion:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-11/msg00120.html



Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.
Severity set to 'wishlist' from 'normal' Request was from Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN> to control@HIDDEN. Full text available.

Message received at submit@HIDDEN:


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Subject: 23.1.50; Please provide access to the tour on the Help menu; 
	preferably ship it also
To: emacs-pretest-bug@HIDDEN
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Hi,

Please provide access to the Emacs guided tour on the Emacs' Help
menu.  Preferably as the first item on the menu, since it is more
useful than the tutorial.

Preferably by shipping the full tour as part of Emacs, and providing
shortcuts to launch it, like the Lisp code for XEmacs at
http://ftp.xemacs.org/pub/xemacs/beta/experimental/packages/guided-tour-0.52-pkg.tar.gz
does.  Or you can ship a text version of the tour, perhaps produced by
the "lynx -dump" command or some HTML-to-text converter as part of
your build procedure; but make sure to tack on a message at the
beginning telling users how to get to the full version on the Web.

Thanks in advance,
-Jason

In GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600)
 of 2009-10-15 on LENNART-69DE564
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600

-- 
Jason Spiro: software/web developer, packager, trainer, IT consultant.
I support Linux, UNIX, Windows, and more. Contact me to discuss your needs.
+1 (416) 992-3445 / www.jspiro.com



Acknowledgement sent to "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4960; Package emacs. Full text available.
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