GNU bug report logs - #4962
Please include tour parts 2 and 3, and the slideshow version of tour part 1, on your website

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Message #5 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-emacs <at> gnu.org
Cc: Phil Sung <psung <at> alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Please include tour parts 2 and 3, and the slideshow version of tour 
	part 1, on your website
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:34:41 -0500

Dear bug-emacs list,

Thank you for putting a version of Phil Sung's guided tour of Emacs on
your website at http://gnu.org/s/emacs/tour/ -- but I prefer Phil's
slideshow version.  But AFAICT the slideshow version is not available
anywhere on gnu.org.  I do admit that some people will prefer the
prose version.  So you should offer both versions on your website.

Also, parts 2 and 3 of his tour are not available anywhere on gnu.org
either.  They were last published in full in 2007.  I don't recommend
that you link to the new 2009 part 2 he's published this year, because
it replaces 2007 part 2 and 2007 part 3 but is shorter and omits a lot
of material.  Instead, link to 2007 part 2 and 2007 part 3.

So, could you please change http://gnu.org/s/emacs/tour/ to be not a
tour, but a menu, linking to six choices?:

*  Part 1 -- an introduction to Emacs -- working quickly in Emacs;
modes; macros; useful features; acquiring emacs; how to learn more:
    *  Quick-to-watch slideshow version:
http://web.psung.name/emacs/2009/part1.html
    *  More detailed prose version:  I suggest you relocate this to
http://gnu.org/s/emacs/tour-part-1-prose/

*  Part 2 -- customization -- basic elisp; keybindings; variables;
hooks; the .emacs file; defining simple commands:
    *  OpenOffice.org Impress format:
http://web.psung.name/emacs/2007/emacs-slides-2.odp
    *  PDF:  http://web.psung.name/emacs/2007/emacs-slides-2.pdf

*  Part 3 -- extending Emacs -- elisp control flow; interactive
arguments; advice; defining new modes:
    *  OpenOffice.org Impress format:
http://web.psung.name/emacs/2007/emacs-slides-3.odp
    *  PDF:  http://web.psung.name/emacs/2007/emacs-slides-3.pdf

Thanks in advance,
-Jason Spiro

P.S.  If you wonder if this material is GFDLed, know that
http://web.psung.name/emacs/ says "Copyright © 2007, 2008, 2009 Free
Software Foundation or Phil Sung. You may use any of the material on
this site under the terms of the GFDL v1.3+ or the GPL v3+ [...]".

-- 
Jason Spiro: software/web developer, packager, trainer, IT consultant.
I support Linux, UNIX, Windows, and more. Contact me to discuss your needs.
+1 (416) 992-3445 / www.jspiro.com

Message #12 received at 4962 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>
To: 4962 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: Phil Sung <psung <at> alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Bug#4962: Fwd: Please include tour parts 2 and 3, and the slideshow 
	version of tour part 1, on your website
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:59:30 -0500

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Phil Sung <psung <at> alum.mit.edu>
Date: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: Please include tour parts 2 and 3, and the slideshow
version of tour part 1, on your website
To: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>

Hi Jason,

[I'm not sure that debbugs has processed your original email yet, but
I will repost this message when it has.]

As an aside, thanks for your efforts in thinking about how we can
smooth out the learning curve for new Emacs users! I think this is
really important and often neglected.

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 20:34, Jason A. Spiro <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you for putting a version of Phil Sung's guided tour of Emacs on
> your website at http://gnu.org/s/emacs/tour/ -- but I prefer Phil's
> slideshow version.  But AFAICT the slideshow version is not available
> anywhere on gnu.org. I do admit that some people will prefer the
> prose version.  So you should offer both versions on your website.
> [...]
> So, could you please change http://gnu.org/s/emacs/tour/ to be not a
> tour, but a menu, linking to six choices?:

I prefer the current layout because casual/uncommitted visitors to the
web site can immediately read something (ever so slightly...) engaging
and useful rather than having to make a decision.

(I think the prose version is actually more accessible, despite being
longer. It's more easily skimmed/searched and has lots of context that
is elided from the slide versions.)

If others agree that the slides fill a needed niche (myself, I am
indifferent), perhaps something like the following would be good:
1. Add a link to part1.html in a sidebar of the current tour page.
2. Add the other slides somewhere else, e.g. wherever we have
elisp-related resources right now. Additionally, mention them in the
"resources" section at the end of the tour.

What do you think?

Regards,
Phil

Message #17 received at 4962 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>
To: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>, 4962 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: Phil Sung <psung <at> alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: bug#4962: Bug#4962: Fwd: Please include tour parts 2 and 3, and 
	the slideshow version of tour part 1, on your website
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:22:44 +0100

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Jason A. Spiro <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If others agree that the slides fill a needed niche (myself, I am
> indifferent), perhaps something like the following would be good:
> 1. Add a link to part1.html in a sidebar of the current tour page.
> 2. Add the other slides somewhere else, e.g. wherever we have
> elisp-related resources right now. Additionally, mention them in the
> "resources" section at the end of the tour.
>
> What do you think?

The slide show is good for presentation for an audience where you want
to be able to show a particular picture without much effort. Otherwise
the "prose" version is much better IMO.

Message #22 received at 4962 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>
To: 4962 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: Phil Sung <psung <at> alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: bug#4962: Please include tour parts 2 and 3, and the slideshow 
	version of tour part 1, on your website
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:31:34 -0500

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Phil Sung <psung <at> alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Hi Jason,
>
> [I'm not sure that debbugs has processed your original email yet, but
> I will repost this message when it has.]

A Google phrase search for a phrase from the bug shows that it
processed the mail.  But I never got an acknowledgement in my inbox,
not even in the spam filter.  I forwarded your original reply to 4962
at emacsbugs dot donarmstrong dot com, and now I am replying to it.

> As an aside, thanks for your efforts in thinking about how we can
> smooth out the learning curve for new Emacs users! I think this is
> really important and often neglected.

I'm glad to help.  Thank you for *your* efforts in teaching Emacs; I
like your slides a lot, and part one is even better now that you've
redone it in S5 (HTML slideshow) format so that it's easier to view.
(Can OpenOffice.org export the old parts two and three to s5 format?)

> I prefer the current layout because casual/uncommitted visitors to the
> web site can immediately read something (ever so slightly...) engaging
> and useful rather than having to make a decision.

Good point.  Maybe we should show some pre-chosen version of part 1
right away.  Parts 2 and 3 are about Lisp.  It doesn't really matter
if they're available at gnu.org:  the more important thing is that
they're available on Emacs' help menu.  See

By the way, IMO there's no need to be overly humble.  Be assertive.
Make a decision about if you like the slides.  If you like them, don't
call them "slightly useful".  Instead, call them "useful".  :)

> (I think the prose version is actually more accessible, despite being
> longer. It's more easily skimmed/searched and has lots of context that
> is elided from the slide versions.)

I agree that it has more content.

> If others agree that the slides fill a needed niche (myself, I am
> indifferent), perhaps something like the following would be good:
> 1. Add a link to part1.html in a sidebar of the current tour page.
> 2. Add the other slides somewhere else, e.g. whereve we have
> elisp-related resources right now. Additionally, mention them in the
> "resources" section at the end of the tour.
>
> What do you think?

I think the slides are easier to skim, so you can read the slides you
want and pass over the ones you don't.

What if someone (not me) would volunteer to produce some combination
of all the slides, plus all the prose?  I think that would be ideal.
For example, each slide on the left, then prose to its right.  What do
you think?

Is it likely that there exists any presentation software which will
let me copy and paste the text from the prose tour into a "speaker
notes" or "text" area below each slide, then can automatically export
a slides-and-notes HTML file?  Can OpenOffice.org Impress do it?
KPresenter?  Gnome Office's presentation tool, if one exists?
Microsoft Office?

Message #25 received at 4962 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Phil Sung <psung <at> alum.mit.edu>, 4962 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4962: Please include tour parts 2 and 3, and the slideshow
 version of tour  part 1, on your website
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2021 22:08:26 +0100

"Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Thank you for putting a version of Phil Sung's guided tour of Emacs on
> your website at http://gnu.org/s/emacs/tour/ -- but I prefer Phil's
> slideshow version.  But AFAICT the slideshow version is not available
> anywhere on gnu.org.  I do admit that some people will prefer the
> prose version.  So you should offer both versions on your website.

(I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved
at the time.)

Looking at

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/

and the slideshow version

http://web.psung.name/emacs/2009/part1.html

They both look nice to me, but I think the text version is more in line
with the FSF aesthetics, so I understand why the web masters went with
that version.  So I don't think there's anything to fix here (the other
version is fine where it is), and I'm closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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