GNU bug report logs - #4980
23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write "Save", and simplify

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Package: emacs; Severity: minor; Reported by: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>; dated Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:10:05 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Severity set to 'minor' from 'normal' Request was from Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN> to control@HIDDEN. Full text available.

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To: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
CC: emacs-pretest-bug@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50;	In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write "Save",
 and simplify
References: <c241693f0911191505t2cb29a8ex718af639bdf13cbe@HIDDEN>
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Jason A. Spiro skrev:

> 
> [!] There are 2 document(s) with unsaved changes.
> Save before closing?
> 
> Select the documents you want to save:
> | [x] foo.txt    |
> | [x] bar.txt    |
> |                |
> |                |
> 
> If you don't save, your changes will be lost.
>                                                  ________     ______
> [ Close &without Saving ] [       &Cancel     ] [________&Save______]
> 
> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
> 
> Don't offer view-buffer or view-changes choices in a GUI.  You see, a
> GUI should be simple instead of listing every possible choice the user
> might conceivably want.  If the user wants to do so, they can click
> Cancel then do so themselves.
> 

It is a good idea.  However, the dialog functions in Emacs can't currently do 
this in a generic way (that is from elisp).

Close is not a good word.  You close a dialog and a frame, but you quit or 
exit the application.

So IMHO "Close without Saving" should be "Exit without Saving" and "Save" 
should be "Save and Exit" or prehaps "Save marked and Exit" (if indeed that is 
what Save does, it isn't clear).

	Jan D.




Acknowledgement sent to Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4980; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50;	In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write "Save",
 and simplify
References: <c241693f0911191505t2cb29a8ex718af639bdf13cbe@HIDDEN>
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Jason A. Spiro skrev:

> 
> [!] There are 2 document(s) with unsaved changes.
> Save before closing?
> 
> Select the documents you want to save:
> | [x] foo.txt    |
> | [x] bar.txt    |
> |                |
> |                |
> 
> If you don't save, your changes will be lost.
>                                                  ________     ______
> [ Close &without Saving ] [       &Cancel     ] [________&Save______]
> 
> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
> 
> Don't offer view-buffer or view-changes choices in a GUI.  You see, a
> GUI should be simple instead of listing every possible choice the user
> might conceivably want.  If the user wants to do so, they can click
> Cancel then do so themselves.
> 

It is a good idea.  However, the dialog functions in Emacs can't currently do 
this in a generic way (that is from elisp).

Close is not a good word.  You close a dialog and a frame, but you quit or 
exit the application.

So IMHO "Close without Saving" should be "Exit without Saving" and "Save" 
should be "Save and Exit" or prehaps "Save marked and Exit" (if indeed that is 
what Save does, it isn't clear).

	Jan D.




Acknowledgement sent to Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4980; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 4980@HIDDEN:


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From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
To: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Cc: 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write "Save", and simplify
Organization: JURTA
References: <c241693f0911191505t2cb29a8ex718af639bdf13cbe@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:31:42 +0200
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0911191505t2cb29a8ex718af639bdf13cbe@HIDDEN>
	(Jason A. Spiro's message of "Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:05:27 -0500")
Message-ID: <87fx89649t.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> 1.  As dak wrote in 2008 at
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/65537/focus=100634 there's
> no Cancel button.  "Closing the dialog window happens to achieve that
> ... but it is not really obvious."  Please add a Cancel button.
>
> 2.  For the first choice, instead of writing "Yes", write "Save".
> Usability researchers have found that action verbs are always better
> when a list of choices is provided.  I can explain why if you require
> it.
>
> 3.  The seven choices act as a confusing way to ask me which files to
> save.  Instead, as Joshua Juran <jjuran@HIDDEN> suggested to me in
> Freenode #macdev, you should use a dialog box like "gedit" uses (
> screenshot at http://omploader.org/vMnQzaw ; download gedit for
> Windows / Mac at http://projects.gnome.org/gedit/ ):

The graphical version of the closing dialog window is modelled
after the corresponding minibuffer prompts.

So if we are going to change "Yes/No" to "Quit without saving",
"Save All" and "Cancel" (I wholeheartedly welcome this change
since a "Yes/No" question is dangerous to lose unsaved changes),
then we have to modify the minibuffer prompts too.

Maybe in the non-graphical version we should display a list of unsaved
buffers (in a fashion like the *Buffer List* for `C-x C-b') like
we display the process list when quitting with running processes.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/



Acknowledgement sent to Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4980; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Jason Rumney <jasonr@HIDDEN>
Cc: 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
        Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>,
        "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write  "Save", and simplify
Message-ID: <jwvaayh95rr.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <c241693f0911191505t2cb29a8ex718af639bdf13cbe@HIDDEN>
	<e01d8a50911191538w73f9e9b4r534e946645ee2777@HIDDEN>
	<4B06142D.40203@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:31:18 -0500
In-Reply-To: <4B06142D.40203@HIDDEN> (Jason Rumney's message of "Fri, 20 Nov
	2009 11:59:41 +0800")
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> Personally I only see a need for a dialog with 3 buttons. "Close without
> saving" "Save All" and "Cancel"

Agreed.


        Stefan



Acknowledgement sent to Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4980; Package emacs. Full text available.

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CC: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50;	In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write  "Save",
 and simplify
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Lennart Borgman wrote:
> Not sure. This is for experienced users also. Fast ways are useful,
> but maybe not when using dialog boxes.
>   

Personally I only see a need for a dialog with 3 buttons. "Close without 
saving" "Save All" and "Cancel"

Anything more complicated and the user can Cancel, resolve the situation 
and attempt to exit again.




Acknowledgement sent to Jason Rumney <jasonr@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4980; Package emacs. Full text available.

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References: <c241693f0911191505t2cb29a8ex718af639bdf13cbe@HIDDEN>
From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:38:16 +0100
Message-ID: <e01d8a50911191538w73f9e9b4r534e946645ee2777@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write 
	"Save", and simplify
To: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
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On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 12:05 AM, Jason A. Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:
> When I try to quit Emacs by clicking File > Quit, I see seven choices:
>
> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
>
> Save file foo.txt?
>
> * =C2=A0Yes
> * =C2=A0No
> * =C2=A0View This Buffer
> * =C2=A0View Changes In This Buffer
> * =C2=A0Save This But No More
> * =C2=A0Save All Buffers
> * =C2=A0No For All
>
> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
>
> 1. =C2=A0As dak wrote in 2008 at
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/65537/focus=3D100634 there's
> no Cancel button. =C2=A0"Closing the dialog window happens to achieve tha=
t
> ... but it is not really obvious." =C2=A0Please add a Cancel button.


Aggeed.


> 2. =C2=A0For the first choice, instead of writing "Yes", write "Save".
> Usability researchers have found that action verbs are always better
> when a list of choices is provided. =C2=A0I can explain why if you requir=
e
> it.


Agreed. There is no reason for yes/no here. Use verbs to make it clear.


> 3. =C2=A0The seven choices act as a confusing way to ask me which files t=
o
> save. =C2=A0Instead, as Joshua Juran <jjuran@HIDDEN> suggested to me i=
n
> Freenode #macdev, you should use a dialog box like "gedit" uses (
> screenshot at http://omploader.org/vMnQzaw ; download gedit for
> Windows / Mac at http://projects.gnome.org/gedit/ ):

> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
>
> [!] There are 2 document(s) with unsaved changes.
> Save before closing?
>
> Select the documents you want to save:
> | [x] foo.txt =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
> | [x] bar.txt =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
> | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
> | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
>
> If you don't save, your changes will be lost.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ________ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______
> [ Close &without Saving ] [ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &Cancel =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ] =
[________&Save______]
>
> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


Yes, a dialog box is better. But it should be cross platform. No one
has yet tried to write this for w32. (I do not know for other
platforms.)


> Don't offer view-buffer or view-changes choices in a GUI. =C2=A0You see, =
a
> GUI should be simple instead of listing every possible choice the user
> might conceivably want. =C2=A0If the user wants to do so, they can click
> Cancel then do so themselves.


Not sure. This is for experienced users also. Fast ways are useful,
but maybe not when using dialog boxes.



Acknowledgement sent to Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Information forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4980; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at submit@HIDDEN:


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Subject: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write "Save", and simplify
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When I try to quit Emacs by clicking File > Quit, I see seven choices:

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

Save file foo.txt?

*  Yes
*  No
*  View This Buffer
*  View Changes In This Buffer
*  Save This But No More
*  Save All Buffers
*  No For All

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

1.  As dak wrote in 2008 at
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/65537/focus=100634 there's
no Cancel button.  "Closing the dialog window happens to achieve that
... but it is not really obvious."  Please add a Cancel button.

2.  For the first choice, instead of writing "Yes", write "Save".
Usability researchers have found that action verbs are always better
when a list of choices is provided.  I can explain why if you require
it.

3.  The seven choices act as a confusing way to ask me which files to
save.  Instead, as Joshua Juran <jjuran@HIDDEN> suggested to me in
Freenode #macdev, you should use a dialog box like "gedit" uses (
screenshot at http://omploader.org/vMnQzaw ; download gedit for
Windows / Mac at http://projects.gnome.org/gedit/ ):

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

[!] There are 2 document(s) with unsaved changes.
Save before closing?

Select the documents you want to save:
| [x] foo.txt    |
| [x] bar.txt    |
|                |
|                |

If you don't save, your changes will be lost.
                                                 ________     ______
[ Close &without Saving ] [       &Cancel     ] [________&Save______]

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Don't offer view-buffer or view-changes choices in a GUI.  You see, a
GUI should be simple instead of listing every possible choice the user
might conceivably want.  If the user wants to do so, they can click
Cancel then do so themselves.



Acknowledgement sent to "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
bug#4980; Package emacs. Full text available.
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