GNU bug report logs - #50187
28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 11:06:01 -0400

I get this trace:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
  tramp-file-name-handler(file-readable-p "/scp:remote:/path/Contents/Resources/site-lisp/cal-move.so")
  calendar-cursor-to-visible-date((8 24 2021))
  calendar-generate-window(8 2021)
  calendar-basic-setup(nil)
  calendar()
  run-hooks(midnight-hook)
  apply(run-hooks midnight-hook)
  timer-event-handler([t 24869 56416 388128 86400 run-hooks (midnight-hook) nil 0])
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I do have a file "/scp:remote:/path/foo/bar/baz.py" open.
"remote" is not accessible because the VPN is down.
"/scp:remote:/path/" is the location of the .git directory for baz.py.
"remote" is linux, localhost is mac. of course there is no
Contents/Resources/site-lisp/cal-move.so on "remote".
How come "calendar" calls "tramp"?
when I click on the function name in *Backtrace* to get to the source
code, tramp is called and I get an infinite loop of
"Tramp: Opening connection nil for remote using scp...failed"
I have to C-g and M-x tramp-cleanup-all-connections to get back to editing.


In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 5, x86_64-apple-darwin19.6.0, NS appkit-1894.60 Version 10.15.7 (Build 19H1323))
 of 2021-08-23 built on 3c22fb11fdab.ant.amazon.com
Repository revision: 00edc8329a6277f2e5b5204efbe503e2b7957006
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.1894
System Description:  Mac OS X 10.15.7

Configured using:
 'configure --with-imagemagick --with-mailutils --with-ns
 PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/usr/local/opt/libxml2/lib/pkgconfig:/usr/local/opt/imagemagick/lib/pkgconfig:/usr/local/opt/gnutls/lib/pkgconfig:/usr/local/opt/jansson/lib/pkgconfig:/usr/local/opt/libtiff/lib/pkgconfig:/usr/local/opt/libpng/lib/pkgconfig:/usr/local/opt/libjpeg/lib/pkgconfig:/usr/local/opt/freetype/lib/pkgconfig'

Configured features:
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NS PDUMPER PNG THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS ZLIB

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  value of $LC_ALL: en_US.UTF-8
  value of $LANG: C
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: VC dir

Minor modes in effect:
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Load-path shadows:
Error during checking
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Memory information:
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-- 
Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.1894
http://childpsy.net http://calmchildstories.com http://steingoldpsychology.com
https://jij.org https://www.dhimmitude.org https://www.peaceandtolerance.org/
Genius is immortal, but morons live longer.

Message #8 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 16:28:38 +0200

Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I get this trace:
>
>   tramp-file-name-handler(file-readable-p "/scp:remote:/path/Contents/Resources/site-lisp/cal-move.so")
>   calendar-cursor-to-visible-date((8 24 2021))
>   calendar-generate-window(8 2021)
>   calendar-basic-setup(nil)
>   calendar()
>   run-hooks(midnight-hook)
>   apply(run-hooks midnight-hook)
>   timer-event-handler([t 24869 56416 388128 86400 run-hooks (midnight-hook) nil 0])

(I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved
at the time.)

calendar-cursor-to-visible-date is an autoloaded function, so what's
happening is that Emacs is trying to load the cal-move file -- and
looking into "/scp:remote:/path/Contents/Resources/site-lisp/".

Can something have put that in your load-path by any chance?

Message #13 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 12:18:05 -0400

> * Lars Ingebrigtsen <ynefv <at> tahf.bet> [2022-08-22 16:28:38 +0200]:
>
> Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>> I get this trace:
>>
>>   tramp-file-name-handler(file-readable-p "/scp:remote:/path/Contents/Resources/site-lisp/cal-move.so")
>>   calendar-cursor-to-visible-date((8 24 2021))
>>   calendar-generate-window(8 2021)
>>   calendar-basic-setup(nil)
>>   calendar()
>>   run-hooks(midnight-hook)
>>   apply(run-hooks midnight-hook)
>>   timer-event-handler([t 24869 56416 388128 86400 run-hooks (midnight-hook) nil 0])
>
> (I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved
> at the time.)

Very nice of you, but, alas, I have no way to reliably reproduce it now.

> calendar-cursor-to-visible-date is an autoloaded function, so what's
> happening is that Emacs is trying to load the cal-move file -- and
> looking into "/scp:remote:/path/Contents/Resources/site-lisp/".
>
> Can something have put that in your load-path by any chance?

I don't think so.

I suspect that this is a part of the pattern I still observe when tramp
paths seep into `default-directory' in irrelevant buffers.

Basically, if I create a non-file buffer `*NFB*' (e.g., by calling
`list-packages' or `gnus') while inside a tramp buffer, the buffer `*NFB*'
inherits `default-directory' from the tramp buffer (unless a special
action is taken, like by `gnus'!) so when a future action involving disk
access is initiated from `*NFB*' (e.g., when `midnight-hook' autoloads
something), the file system local to `*NFB*' is checked first (because
`.' is a part of `load-path' so it is resolved against the tramp
`default-directory').

Maybe a solution is to _never_ inherit `default-directory' unless
there is a _reason_ for that.  E.g., `*vc-diff*' should not inherit
`default-directory' from `*vc*' implicitly, but by an explicit action.
However, this will break so much existing code that you wouldn't even
consider that.
On the other hand, "explicitly non-file" modes (like, e.g., `*Custom*'
or `*Help*') should probably reset `default-directory'.

I now evaluate this

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(dolist (b (buffer-list))
  (with-current-buffer b
    (when (and (null buffer-file-name)
               (not (eq major-mode 'dired-mode))
               (not (string-match " ?\\*.*\\(tramp\\|vc\\|diff\\)" (buffer-name)))
               (tramp-tramp-file-p default-directory))
      (message "Reset 'default-directory' in %s(%s) from %s"
               b (or buffer-file-name list-buffers-directory) default-directory)
      (setq default-directory (default-value 'default-directory))
      )))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

whenever I have any trouble with tramp, and, e.g., today I saw

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
Reset ’default-directory’ in  *Minibuf-1*(nil) from /scp:remote:/home/sds/
Reset ’default-directory’ in *Custom Themes*(nil) from /scp:remote:/home/sds/
Reset ’default-directory’ in  *eldoc for line-move-visual*(nil) from /scp:remote:/home/sds/
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Thank you very much for your attention.

-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
https://lastingimpactpsychology.com https://steingoldpsychology.com
https://ffii.org https://thereligionofpeace.com http://think-israel.org
Please express your antipathy in the suicidal form.

Message #16 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 04:11:44 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

> > calendar-cursor-to-visible-date is an autoloaded function, so what's
> > happening is that Emacs is trying to load the cal-move file -- and
> > looking into "/scp:remote:/path/Contents/Resources/site-lisp/".
> >
> > Can something have put that in your load-path by any chance?
>
> I don't think so.
>
> I suspect that this is a part of the pattern I still observe when tramp
> paths seep into `default-directory' in irrelevant buffers.

If you had `nil' in your `load-path' - that stands for the
`default-directory'.

Michael.

Message #19 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 04:18:23 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

> (because `.' is a part of `load-path'

Ok, but it's not there by default, right?

> so it is resolved against the tramp `default-directory').
>
> Maybe a solution is to _never_ inherit `default-directory' unless
> there is a _reason_ for that.  E.g., `*vc-diff*' should not inherit
> `default-directory' from `*vc*' implicitly, but by an explicit action.
> However, this will break so much existing code that you wouldn't even
> consider that.
> On the other hand, "explicitly non-file" modes (like, e.g., `*Custom*'
> or `*Help*') should probably reset `default-directory'.

What you suggest would at least partly reverse the effect of having
default-directory in load-path.  Maybe you should just remove it?

Michael.

Message #22 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 22:47:04 -0400

> * Michael Heerdegen <zvpunry_urreqrtra <at> jro.qr> [2022-08-23 04:18:23 +0200]:
>
>
> Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>> (because `.' is a part of `load-path'
>
> Ok, but it's not there by default, right?

I have no idea why it was there (it is not there now!)
I am not even sure if it was there then.
My only point is that disk access triggered from a buffer with a tramp
`default-directory' results in tramp being activated and trying to
touch the remote.
Dunno why.
My theory was `load-path', looks like I was wrong.


-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org) on Pop 22.04 (jammy) X 11.0.12101003
http://childpsy.net http://calmchildstories.com http://steingoldpsychology.com
https://www.memritv.org https://www.peaceandtolerance.org/
I haven't lost my mind -- it's backed up on tape somewhere.

Message #25 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 05:24:54 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

> >> (because `.' is a part of `load-path'
> >
> > Ok, but it's not there by default, right?
>
> I have no idea why it was there (it is not there now!)
> I am not even sure if it was there then.
> My only point is that disk access triggered from a buffer with a tramp
> `default-directory' results in tramp being activated and trying to
> touch the remote.
> Dunno why.
> My theory was `load-path', looks like I was wrong.

Not really: your backtrace very much looks like the function
`calendar-cursor-to-visible-date' was autoloaded.  Autoloads don't
contain complete paths, they only contain relative file names.  So the
`load-path' is searched, and if "." or nil is at the beginning, the
default-directory is searched first.  Else the standard file would have
been found before default-directory is touched.  Quite plausible that
this is what you saw.

Michael.

Message #28 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 23:39:05 -0400

At any rate, I never add either "." or nil to `load-path`.

On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 at 23:25, Michael Heerdegen
<michael_heerdegen <at> web.de> wrote:
> Not really: your backtrace very much looks like the function
> `calendar-cursor-to-visible-date' was autoloaded.  Autoloads don't
> contain complete paths, they only contain relative file names.  So the
> `load-path' is searched, and if "." or nil is at the beginning, the
> default-directory is searched first.  Else the standard file would have
> been found before default-directory is touched.  Quite plausible that
> this is what you saw.

-- 
Sam Steingold <http://sds.podval.org> <http://www.childpsy.net>
<http://steingoldpsychology.com>

Message #31 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 06:00:02 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

> At any rate, I never add either "." or nil to `load-path`.

There are multiple ways why such an entry could have been added there -
it must not even have been you.

But if the load-path theory is wrong, I have no clue what was going on
without a reproducer.  The backtrace seems to clearly hint at
autoloading going on.

Michael.

Message #34 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 09:30:00 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

Hi Lars,

>> I get this trace:
>>
>>   tramp-file-name-handler(file-readable-p "/scp:remote:/path/Contents/Resources/site-lisp/cal-move.so")
>>   calendar-cursor-to-visible-date((8 24 2021))
>>   calendar-generate-window(8 2021)
>>   calendar-basic-setup(nil)
>>   calendar()
>>   run-hooks(midnight-hook)
>>   apply(run-hooks midnight-hook)
>>   timer-event-handler([t 24869 56416 388128 86400 run-hooks (midnight-hook) nil 0])
>
> (I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved
> at the time.)
>
> calendar-cursor-to-visible-date is an autoloaded function, so what's
> happening is that Emacs is trying to load the cal-move file -- and
> looking into "/scp:remote:/path/Contents/Resources/site-lisp/".
>
> Can something have put that in your load-path by any chance?

I don't believe it is a load-path issue. calendar-cursor-to-visible-date
is declared in cal-loaddefs.el (it has the ;;;###cal-autoload cookie),
and this loaddefs file is loaded when loading calendar.el.

That has been finished already, when calendar-basic-setup is applied.

The question is rather: what is cal-move.so, and how and why is it
checked for readability? In the directory emacs/lisp/calendar I cannot
find any use of this file.

Best regards, Michael.

Message #37 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Cc: Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 12:00:01 +0200

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de> writes:

> I don't believe it is a load-path issue. calendar-cursor-to-visible-date
> is declared in cal-loaddefs.el (it has the ;;;###cal-autoload cookie),
> and this loaddefs file is loaded when loading calendar.el.
>
> That has been finished already, when calendar-basic-setup is applied.

Yes, cal-loaddefs had been loaded.  

> The question is rather: what is cal-move.so, and how and why is it
> checked for readability? In the directory emacs/lisp/calendar I cannot
> find any use of this file.

The backtrace shows that Emacs was trying to load cal-move.so, and
that's presumably something that Emacs tries to do when resolving the
`autoload' definition of `calendar-cursor-to-visible-date', I think?
(If I remember correctly, Emacs looks for all of so/elc/el, if Emacs is
built with module support, when doing a `require'/`autoload' lookup.)

Message #40 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>,
 Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 21:13:56 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> The backtrace shows that Emacs was trying to load cal-move.so, and
> that's presumably something that Emacs tries to do when resolving the
> `autoload' definition of `calendar-cursor-to-visible-date', I think?
> (If I remember correctly, Emacs looks for all of so/elc/el, if Emacs is
> built with module support, when doing a `require'/`autoload' lookup.)

".so" is the first prefix in the return value of (get-load-suffixes) for
me - so it is tried first.

And we see in the backtrace that `calendar-basic-setup' is not done.
And why else should a call of `calendar-cursor-to-visible-date' directly
invoke tramp?  If an Elisp function would be involved, it would appear
in the backtrace.

Michael.

Message #43 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>,
 Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 21:29:42 +0200

Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de> writes:

> And we see in the backtrace that `calendar-basic-setup' is not done.
> And why else should a call of `calendar-cursor-to-visible-date' directly
> invoke tramp?  If an Elisp function would be involved, it would appear
> in the backtrace.

I don't quite understand what you mean.

If you

(debug-on-entry 'tramp-file-name-handler)
(push "/ssh:host:/tmp/" load-path)

and then do something that will trigger an autoload, you get a backtrace
like that (depending on what it's autoloading):

  tramp-file-name-handler(expand-file-name "tramp" "/ssh:host:/tmp/")
  tramp-file-name-handler(expand-file-name "tramp" "/ssh:host:/tmp/")
  tramp-file-name-handler(expand-file-name "mule-util" "/ssh:host:/tmp/")
  truncate-string-to-width(#("<     Calendar     ? info / o other /
  calendar-string-spread((#("<" 0 1 (help-echo "mouse-1: previous m
  calendar-update-mode-line()
  calendar-mode()
  calendar-basic-setup(nil)
  calendar()
  eval((calendar) nil)

Here's it's calling truncate-string-to-width (which is autoloaded from
mule-utils).

Message #46 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>,
 Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 01:09:44 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

>   tramp-file-name-handler(expand-file-name "tramp" "/ssh:host:/tmp/")
>   tramp-file-name-handler(expand-file-name "tramp" "/ssh:host:/tmp/")
>   tramp-file-name-handler(expand-file-name "mule-util" "/ssh:host:/tmp/")
>   truncate-string-to-width(#("<     Calendar     ? info / o other /
>   calendar-string-spread((#("<" 0 1 (help-echo "mouse-1: previous m
>   calendar-update-mode-line()
>   calendar-mode()
>   calendar-basic-setup(nil)
>   calendar()
>   eval((calendar) nil)

Could be that the backtraces just show different moments in autoloading
progress.  AFAIK `tramp-file-name-handler' is called very often.  Maybe
there is also some caching mechanism involved or something like that and
the first `tramp-file-name-handler' call depends on what you did before
- I don't know.

The OP didn't tell us how he produced his backtrace (do you maybe
recall, Sam?).

Michael.

Message #49 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
 Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2022 14:49:02 -0400

> * Michael Heerdegen <zvpunry_urreqrtra <at> jro.qr> [2022-08-24 01:09:44 +0200]:
>
> The OP didn't tell us how he produced his backtrace (do you maybe
> recall, Sam?).

I have calendar in midnight-hook, so I came to this backtrace in the
morning.


-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
https://lastingimpactpsychology.com https://steingoldpsychology.com
http://think-israel.org https://ij.org/ https://www.peaceandtolerance.org/
Your mouse pad is incompatible with MS Windows - your HD will be reformatted.

Message #52 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
 Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 04:14:24 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I have calendar in midnight-hook, so I came to this backtrace in the
> morning.

Yes thanks - but I wanted to know how you had obtained the backtrace,
that would help for the analysis.  M-x debug-on-entry [what function?],
or something else?  Can you maybe try to produce that backtrace again?

Michael.

Message #55 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
 Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2022 10:29:36 -0400

> * Michael Heerdegen <zvpunry_urreqrtra <at> jro.qr> [2022-09-13 04:14:24 +0200]:
>
> Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>> I have calendar in midnight-hook, so I came to this backtrace in the
>> morning.
>
> Yes thanks - but I wanted to know how you had obtained the backtrace,
> that would help for the analysis.  M-x debug-on-entry [what function?],
> or something else?  Can you maybe try to produce that backtrace again?

I always run Emacs with `debug-on-error' set to t.
So `midnight-hook' runs `calendar', it errors out, and I see the
*Backtrace* first thing in the morning.

-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
https://lastingimpactpsychology.com https://steingoldpsychology.com
https://mideasttruth.com https://fairforall.org https://ij.org/
To be popular with ladies one has to be smart, handsome & rich. Or to be a cat.

Message #58 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2022 04:54:36 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I always run Emacs with `debug-on-error' set to t.
> So `midnight-hook' runs `calendar', it errors out, and I see the
> *Backtrace* first thing in the morning.

I didn't know that you got an error.

And you can still reproduce the problem?  Then you could try to use the
calendar before midnight and see if that prevents that error at
midnight.  If it doesn't, my autoload theory would be wrong.

Michael.

Message #61 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2022 14:57:08 -0400

> * Michael Heerdegen <zvpunry_urreqrtra <at> jro.qr> [2022-09-14 04:54:36 +0200]:
>
> Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>> I always run Emacs with `debug-on-error' set to t.
>> So `midnight-hook' runs `calendar', it errors out, and I see the
>> *Backtrace* first thing in the morning.
>
> I didn't know that you got an error.

Sorry, the original message was indeed unclear on that.

> And you can still reproduce the problem?

Alas, I have not seen this for quite some time.
I don't even recall _when_ the problem went away.
All I remember is that I saw it for a while, reported the bug, did
nothing specifically to correct the issue, and then it went away after
some time.

> Then you could try to use the calendar before midnight and see if that
> prevents that error at midnight.  If it doesn't, my autoload theory
> would be wrong.

I do use calendar regularly, but I have not seen this recently.

_However_, I just called calendar from a Tramp buffer and the *Calendar*
buffer's `default-directory' is a tramp directory.

I don't think this is right.

-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
https://lastingimpactpsychology.com https://steingoldpsychology.com
https://iris.org.il https://honestreporting.com https://jihadwatch.org
A good programmer: language change is easy, editor change is ... huh?!

Message #64 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2022 12:36:00 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

> _However_, I just called calendar from a Tramp buffer and the *Calendar*
> buffer's `default-directory' is a tramp directory.
>
> I don't think this is right.

I think it's common behavior.  Does it cause trouble?

Michael.

Message #67 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2022 12:10:03 -0400

> * Michael Heerdegen <zvpunry_urreqrtra <at> jro.qr> [2022-09-15 12:36:00 +0200]:
>
> Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>> _However_, I just called calendar from a Tramp buffer and the *Calendar*
>> buffer's `default-directory' is a tramp directory.
>>
>> I don't think this is right.
>
> I think it's common behavior.  Does it cause trouble?

Yes.

Local disk access is fast compared to Tramp (that may take forever and
then actually fail). Thus a simple C-x C-f from a buffer with a remote
`default-directory' can become a nightmare - before I even see the
prompt.

`default-directory' should be remote only when there is a definite
reason for that (IOW, for remote files and directories),
it should not be inherited by non-file buffers at random.

Thank you!

-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
https://lastingimpactpsychology.com https://steingoldpsychology.com
https://ij.org/ https://honestreporting.com https://www.peaceandtolerance.org/
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a nice rock.

Message #70 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 11:41:48 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

> `default-directory' should be remote only when there is a definite
> reason for that (IOW, for remote files and directories),
> it should not be inherited by non-file buffers at random.

It would be a break with how Emacs has worked for decades, so I don't
think that's something we could do in general.

I'm not even sure we could provide a user option for this -- if we're
not using the normal default directory here, which one should we choose
for `default-directory'?  "~/"?  "/"?

If starting calendar while in a Tramp buffer is problematic for you,
then I think the solution is to not do that, I'm afraid.

Message #73 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>,
 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 11:48:29 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

>> `default-directory' should be remote only when there is a definite
>> reason for that (IOW, for remote files and directories),
>> it should not be inherited by non-file buffers at random.
>
> It would be a break with how Emacs has worked for decades, so I don't
> think that's something we could do in general.
>
> I'm not even sure we could provide a user option for this -- if we're
> not using the normal default directory here, which one should we choose
> for `default-directory'?  "~/"?  "/"?

I agree.

> If starting calendar while in a Tramp buffer is problematic for you,
> then I think the solution is to not do that, I'm afraid.

If the problem is reproducible, we shall catch it. Set tramp-verbose to
10. Next morning, when the Tramp problem has appeared, the Tramp debug
buffer shall tell us what happened. Please show the buffer.

Best regards, Michael.

Message #76 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 10:04:57 +0000

>
> If starting calendar while in a Tramp buffer is problematic for you, 
> then I think the solution is to not do that, I'm afraid.
>

Or to use this, for example:

(advice-add
 'calendar :around
 (lambda (fun &rest args)
   (let ((default-directory
	  (if (file-remote-p default-directory)
	      "~/"
	    default-directory)))
     (apply fun args))))

Message #79 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 10:25:56 -0400

> * Lars Ingebrigtsen <ynefv <at> tahf.bet> [2022-09-16 11:41:48 +0200]:
>
> Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>> `default-directory' should be remote only when there is a definite
>> reason for that (IOW, for remote files and directories),
>> it should not be inherited by non-file buffers at random.
>
> It would be a break with how Emacs has worked for decades, so I don't
> think that's something we could do in general.

;-(

> I'm not even sure we could provide a user option for this -- if we're
> not using the normal default directory here, which one should we choose
> for `default-directory'?  "~/"?  "/"?

(default-value 'default-directory)

> If starting calendar while in a Tramp buffer is problematic for you,
> then I think the solution is to not do that, I'm afraid.

1. calendar is not the only non-file-connected buffer
2. when calendar is called from midnight-hook, I cannot select which
buffer calendar starts in.

-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
https://lastingimpactpsychology.com https://steingoldpsychology.com
https://www.peaceandtolerance.org/ https://honestreporting.com
Isn't "Microsoft Works" an advertisement lie?

Message #82 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 16:31:45 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

Hi Sam,

>> I'm not even sure we could provide a user option for this -- if we're
>> not using the normal default directory here, which one should we choose
>> for `default-directory'?  "~/"?  "/"?
>
> (default-value 'default-directory)

This is nil. `default-directory' has only buffer-local values.

>> If starting calendar while in a Tramp buffer is problematic for you,
>> then I think the solution is to not do that, I'm afraid.
>
> 1. calendar is not the only non-file-connected buffer

Sure. But we have catched similar errors in other packages already. And
fixed them.

> 2. when calendar is called from midnight-hook, I cannot select which
> buffer calendar starts in.

Yes. So let Tramp catch the traces, setting tramp-verbose to 10.

Best regards, Michael.

Message #85 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 10:31:54 -0400

> * Gregory Heytings <tertbel <at> urlgvatf.bet> [2022-09-16 10:04:57 +0000]:
>
>>
>> If starting calendar while in a Tramp buffer is problematic for you, then I
>> think the solution is to not do that, I'm afraid.
>>
>
> Or to use this, for example:
>
> (advice-add
>  'calendar :around
>  (lambda (fun &rest args)
>    (let ((default-directory
> 	  (if (file-remote-p default-directory)
> 	      "~/"
> 	    default-directory)))
>      (apply fun args))))

calendar is far from being the only problem.
I run this:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(dolist (b (buffer-list))
  (with-current-buffer b
    (when (and (null buffer-file-name)
               (not (eq major-mode 'dired-mode))
               (not (string-match " ?\\*.*\\(tramp\\|vc\\|diff\\)" (buffer-name)))
               (find-file-name-handler default-directory 'file-remote-p))
      (message "Reset 'default-directory' in %s(%s) from %s"
               b (or buffer-file-name list-buffers-directory) default-directory)
      (setq default-directory (default-value 'default-directory))
      )))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

every now and then.

-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
https://lastingimpactpsychology.com https://steingoldpsychology.com
https://jij.org https://www.memritv.org https://www.peaceandtolerance.org/
If at first you don't suck seed, try and suck another seed.

Message #88 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 16:38:27 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

Hi Sam,

> (dolist (b (buffer-list))
>   (with-current-buffer b
>     (when (and (null buffer-file-name)
>                (not (eq major-mode 'dired-mode))
>                (not (string-match " ?\\*.*\\(tramp\\|vc\\|diff\\)" (buffer-name)))
>                (find-file-name-handler default-directory 'file-remote-p))
>       (message "Reset 'default-directory' in %s(%s) from %s"
>                b (or buffer-file-name list-buffers-directory) default-directory)
>       (setq default-directory (default-value 'default-directory))
>       )))

This works by sheer luck then. `default-directory' must not be nil; it
is fundamental that it is a string.

That code makes other packages useless for remote buffers, like shell or
compile. This cannot be the solution.

Best regards, Michael.

Message #91 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 15:02:04 +0000

>
> calendar is far from being the only problem.
>

That wasn't clear from the bug title and the discussion.

>
> I run this:
>
> (dolist (b (buffer-list))
>  (with-current-buffer b
>    (when (and (null buffer-file-name)
>               (not (eq major-mode 'dired-mode))
>               (not (string-match " ?\\*.*\\(tramp\\|vc\\|diff\\)" (buffer-name)))
>               (find-file-name-handler default-directory 'file-remote-p))
>      (message "Reset 'default-directory' in %s(%s) from %s"
>               b (or buffer-file-name list-buffers-directory) default-directory)
>      (setq default-directory (default-value 'default-directory))
>      )))
>
> every now and then.
>

I think you can achieve a similar effect automatically, by adding a 
function in buffer-list-update-hook that does the above on the first 
element of buffer-list.  But as Michael said you should probably not use 
nil.

Message #94 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 12:56:39 -0400

> * Gregory Heytings <tertbel <at> urlgvatf.bet> [2022-09-16 15:02:04 +0000]:
>
>> calendar is far from being the only problem.
>
> That wasn't clear from the bug title and the discussion.

I am pretty sure I mentioned this a few time here and elsewhere but you
don't have to track my pet peeves ;-)

>>
>> I run this:
>>
>> (dolist (b (buffer-list))
>>  (with-current-buffer b
>>    (when (and (null buffer-file-name)
>>               (not (eq major-mode 'dired-mode))
>>               (not (string-match " ?\\*.*\\(tramp\\|vc\\|diff\\)" (buffer-name)))
>>               (find-file-name-handler default-directory 'file-remote-p))
>>      (message "Reset 'default-directory' in %s(%s) from %s"
>>               b (or buffer-file-name list-buffers-directory) default-directory)
>>      (setq default-directory (default-value 'default-directory))
>>      )))
>>
>> every now and then.
>>
>
> I think you can achieve a similar effect automatically, by adding a
> function in buffer-list-update-hook that does the above on the first
> element of buffer-list.

Wow, thanks Gregory, didn't even think about it.

1. This hook seems to be called far too often; but I do not see a
`create-buffer-hook' - any reason for that? (there is a
`kill-buffer-hook')

2. It appears that I can use (current-buffer) instead of (car
(buffer-list))


> But as Michael said you should probably not use nil.

I am not sure what you mean, could you please clarify?

-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
https://lastingimpactpsychology.com https://steingoldpsychology.com
https://www.dhimmitude.org https://jihadwatch.org https://camera.org
Time would have been the best Teacher, if it did not kill all its students.

Message #97 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
Cc: 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 13:13:50 -0400

> * Sam Steingold <fqf <at> tah.bet> [2022-09-16 12:56:39 -0400]:
>
> Wow, thanks Gregory, didn't even think about it.

... mostly because I was still hoping for a fix in Emacs ;-(

-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
https://lastingimpactpsychology.com https://steingoldpsychology.com
https://fairforall.org https://honestreporting.com https://jihadwatch.org
Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead.

Message #100 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 17:26:45 +0000

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>
> 1. This hook seems to be called far too often; but I do not see a 
> `create-buffer-hook' - any reason for that? (there is a 
> `kill-buffer-hook')
>

It's not clear when such a hook would have to run I think.

>
> 2. It appears that I can use (current-buffer) instead of (car 
> (buffer-list))
>

Yes, that's another possibility indeed.

>> But as Michael said you should probably not use nil.
>
> I am not sure what you mean, could you please clarify?
>

The docstring says "it should be an absolute directory name", and nil is 
not an absolute directory name 😉

>
> ... mostly because I was still hoping for a fix in Emacs ;-(
>

It's not clear to me what the "fix" would be here, can you explain what 
you have in mind?

Message #103 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: sds <at> gnu.org
Cc: gregory <at> heytings.org, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 20:30:46 +0300

> Cc: 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 13:13:50 -0400
> 
> > * Sam Steingold <fqf <at> tah.bet> [2022-09-16 12:56:39 -0400]:
> >
> > Wow, thanks Gregory, didn't even think about it.
> 
> ... mostly because I was still hoping for a fix in Emacs ;-(

I thought Michael asked for additional data to be collected, so he
could look into this issue?

Message #106 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 14:45:25 -0400

> * Gregory Heytings <tertbel <at> urlgvatf.bet> [2022-09-16 17:26:45 +0000]:
>
>>> But as Michael said you should probably not use nil.
>>
>> I am not sure what you mean, could you please clarify?
>>
>
> The docstring says "it should be an absolute directory name", and nil
> is not an absolute directory name 😉

Ah, right, the initial global value of `default-directory' is nil, but I do

(setq-default default-directory (expand-file-name "~/"))

>> ... mostly because I was still hoping for a fix in Emacs ;-(
>
> It's not clear to me what the "fix" would be here, can you explain
> what you have in mind?

1. `default-directory' should have a global default, see above
2. new buffers should inherit `default-directory' from the global
default instead of the previous buffer from which this one was created.

Thank you!

-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
https://lastingimpactpsychology.com https://steingoldpsychology.com
https://ffii.org https://jihadwatch.org http://think-israel.org
The more project management you do, the less likely your project is to succeed.

Message #109 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 20:51:14 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

Hi Sam,

> 1. `default-directory' should have a global default, see above

It has. It is nil, and there's nothing wrong with it.

> 2. new buffers should inherit `default-directory' from the global
> default instead of the previous buffer from which this one was created.

No. This would break many packages.

Show us the Tramp traces if calendar is called from a remote buffer. We
might be able to fix it.

> Thank you!

Best regards, Michael.

Message #112 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: sds <at> gnu.org
Cc: michael_heerdegen <at> web.de, michael.albinus <at> gmx.de, gregory <at> heytings.org,
 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 22:02:39 +0300

> Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>  Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
> From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 14:45:25 -0400
> 
> (setq-default default-directory (expand-file-name "~/"))
> 
> >> ... mostly because I was still hoping for a fix in Emacs ;-(
> >
> > It's not clear to me what the "fix" would be here, can you explain
> > what you have in mind?
> 
> 1. `default-directory' should have a global default, see above

But using "~/" as that default is IMO wrong, as it contradicts what
expand-file-name does when default-directory is nil: it uses "/" on
Posix systems and the root of the Emacs installation on MS-Windows.
If we want default-directory to have a global default (and I'm not yet
convinced that it's a good idea), we should at least use the same
value as expand-file-name does, otherwise we'll have bugs.

> 2. new buffers should inherit `default-directory' from the global
> default instead of the previous buffer from which this one was created.

I question the validity of this assertion.  It seems to be based on a
particular class of use cases, while its effect is over-reaching.
Consider, for example, the frequent paradigm of using
with-temp-buffer.

Message #115 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 19:30:28 +0000

>> It's not clear to me what the "fix" would be here, can you explain what 
>> you have in mind?
>
> 1. `default-directory' should have a global default, see above
>
> 2. new buffers should inherit `default-directory' from the global 
> default instead of the previous buffer from which this one was created.
>

That fix would break *lots* of code.  There's a good reason that the 
default value of non-file-visiting buffers is inherited from that of the 
buffer from which they were created: it is, in most cases, the 
default-directory value that is expected and useful in that buffer. 
Think of cases like occur, grep, compilation, diff, dired, and so forth. 
It is much better to manually fix the few cases in which you do not want 
to inherit its value.

What would perhaps be feasible would be to add a variable similar to 
display-buffer-alist: an alist of user-defined conditional values for 
default-directory.

Message #118 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 17:43:17 -0400

> * Gregory Heytings <tertbel <at> urlgvatf.bet> [2022-09-16 19:30:28 +0000]:
>
>>> It's not clear to me what the "fix" would be here, can you explain what you
>>> have in mind?
>>
>> 1. `default-directory' should have a global default, see above
>>
>> 2. new buffers should inherit `default-directory' from the global default
>> instead of the previous buffer from which this one was created.
>
> That fix would break *lots* of code.

;-(


> Think of cases like occur, grep, compilation, diff, dired, and so
> forth. It is much better to manually fix the few cases in which you do
> not want to inherit its value.

I admit that I was sloppy in my second point.
I should have said that each emacs buffer has a natural "parent".
E.g., the initial *scratch* is like init(1), and the rest either has it
as the parent (e.g., gnus, calendar, list-packages, list-buffers) and
the rest have the parent the buffer from which it was created (like
occur, diff, and other examples you have).
It makes perfect sense for *occur* to inherit `default-directory', and
no sense for calendar.

> What would perhaps be feasible would be to add a variable similar to
> display-buffer-alist: an alist of user-defined conditional values for
> default-directory.

I would do this somewhat differently.

You are right that we have a long standing assumption that a new buffer
inherits `default-directory' from the "previous buffer" and we will
probably have to keep that.

However, we also did not have `quit-window' and `special-mode' until
relatively recently in Emacs history.
I suggest a solution similar to those.

Specifically, define a function `disinherit' (and add `disinherit'
optional argument to `get-buffer-create' et al) that would reset
`default-directory' et al to the "root" value (whatever the value would
be in *scratch* for `emacs -Q`) for the newly created buffer.

Then encourage developers to use disinherit in things like games,
calendar &c &c &c.

Thank you.

-- 
Sam Steingold (https://aphar.dreamwidth.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
https://lastingimpactpsychology.com https://steingoldpsychology.com
https://ffii.org https://camera.org https://fairforall.org
Sometimes "pain in the ass" and "headache" are synonyms.

Message #121 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: sds <at> gnu.org
Cc: michael_heerdegen <at> web.de, michael.albinus <at> gmx.de, gregory <at> heytings.org,
 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2022 09:20:38 +0300

> Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>  Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
> From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 17:43:17 -0400
> 
> It makes perfect sense for *occur* to inherit `default-directory', and
> no sense for calendar.

Then "M-x calendar" should take care of setting the default-directory
of its buffer.  It cannot be done by the infrastructure, because in
many cases when a buffer is created, Emacs doesn't yet know its future
purpose.

But we are arguing about issues that might be purely academic.
Michael asked you to collect some Tramp-related data, so he could look
into what happens in this particular case.  Please provide him the
data he asked for: it could very well lead to a simple and
uncontroversial solution.

> Specifically, define a function `disinherit' (and add `disinherit'
> optional argument to `get-buffer-create' et al) that would reset
> `default-directory' et al to the "root" value (whatever the value would
> be in *scratch* for `emacs -Q`) for the newly created buffer.

The default-directory of *scratch* is the directory where you start
Emacs, so it's not a fixed directory, and I don't see how it can serve
the model for anything referenced in this discussion.

Message #124 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
To: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2022 08:48:39 +0200

Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org> writes:

Hi Sam,

> Specifically, define a function `disinherit' (and add `disinherit'
> optional argument to `get-buffer-create' et al) that would reset
> `default-directory' et al to the "root" value (whatever the value would
> be in *scratch* for `emacs -Q`) for the newly created buffer.
>
> Then encourage developers to use disinherit in things like games,
> calendar &c &c &c.

The usual approach in packages, which do not want to be offended by a
remote default-directory, shall be

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(let ((default-directory temporary-file-directory))
   ...)
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

But it is up to the package to do so in its implementation.

> Thank you.

Best regards, Michael.

Message #127 received at 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, michael_heerdegen <at> web.de, gregory <at> heytings.org,
 michael.albinus <at> gmx.de, larsi <at> gnus.org, sds <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2023 01:36:56 -0700

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>>  Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
>> From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
>> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 17:43:17 -0400
>>
>> It makes perfect sense for *occur* to inherit `default-directory', and
>> no sense for calendar.
>
> Then "M-x calendar" should take care of setting the default-directory
> of its buffer.  It cannot be done by the infrastructure, because in
> many cases when a buffer is created, Emacs doesn't yet know its future
> purpose.
>
> But we are arguing about issues that might be purely academic.
> Michael asked you to collect some Tramp-related data, so he could look
> into what happens in this particular case.  Please provide him the
> data he asked for: it could very well lead to a simple and
> uncontroversial solution.

We seem to need more information here to make any progress.  Without
that information, I don't think it makes sense to keep this bug open.

Sam, could you please try to collect the information that Michael has
asked for?  Thanks in advance.

Message #132 received at 50187-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: michael_heerdegen <at> web.de, gregory <at> heytings.org, michael.albinus <at> gmx.de,
 50187-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org, sds <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50187: 28.0.50; tramp is called from calendar
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:02:13 -0800

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, 50187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>>>  Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Michael Albinus <michael.albinus <at> gmx.de>
>>> From: Sam Steingold <sds <at> gnu.org>
>>> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2022 17:43:17 -0400
>>>
>>> It makes perfect sense for *occur* to inherit `default-directory', and
>>> no sense for calendar.
>>
>> Then "M-x calendar" should take care of setting the default-directory
>> of its buffer.  It cannot be done by the infrastructure, because in
>> many cases when a buffer is created, Emacs doesn't yet know its future
>> purpose.
>>
>> But we are arguing about issues that might be purely academic.
>> Michael asked you to collect some Tramp-related data, so he could look
>> into what happens in this particular case.  Please provide him the
>> data he asked for: it could very well lead to a simple and
>> uncontroversial solution.
>
> We seem to need more information here to make any progress.  Without
> that information, I don't think it makes sense to keep this bug open.
>
> Sam, could you please try to collect the information that Michael has
> asked for?  Thanks in advance.

More information was requested, but none was given within 4 months, so
I'm closing this bug.

If this is still an issue, please reply to this email (use "Reply to
all" in your email client) and we can reopen the bug report.

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