GNU bug report logs - #50446
Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of the GNU copyleft?" still relevant?

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of the GNU copyleft?"
 still relevant?
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 03:11:10 +0200

Severity: wishlist
X-Debbugs-CC: rms <at> gnu.org

Is the below entry in the Emacs FAQ still relevant?  These days, we
have had several copyright infringement case involving the GPL.  Could
we just delete the entry in the FAQ?

2.1 What is the real legal meaning of the GNU copyleft?
=======================================================

The real legal meaning of the GNU General Public License (copyleft) will
only be known if and when a judge rules on its validity and scope.
There has never been a copyright infringement case involving the GPL to
set any precedents.  Although legal actions have been brought against
companies for violating the terms of the GPL, so far all have been
settled out of court (in favor of the plaintiffs).  Please take any
discussion regarding this issue to the gnu-misc-discuss mailing list
(https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss), which was
created to hold the extensive flame wars on the subject.

   RMS writes:

     The legal meaning of the GNU copyleft is less important than the
     spirit, which is that Emacs is a free software project and that
     work pertaining to Emacs should also be free software.  “Free”
     means that all users have the freedom to study, share, change and
     improve Emacs.  To make sure everyone has this freedom, pass along
     source code when you distribute any version of Emacs or a related
     program, and give the recipients the same freedom that you enjoyed.

Message #8 received at 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50446: Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of
 the GNU copyleft?" still relevant?
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 17:26:35 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> Is the below entry in the Emacs FAQ still relevant?  These days, we
> have had several copyright infringement case involving the GPL.  Could
> we just delete the entry in the FAQ?

Hm...  I just skimmed 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_license_litigation

and I didn't see any judgements on GPL'd software?  Just settlements
(and judgements on other licenses, like the Artistic License).

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #11 received at 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#50446: Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of the
 GNU copyleft?" still relevant?
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:20:00 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> > Is the below entry in the Emacs FAQ still relevant?  These days, we
> > have had several copyright infringement case involving the GPL.  Could
> > we just delete the entry in the FAQ?
>
> Hm...  I just skimmed
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_license_litigation
>
> and I didn't see any judgements on GPL'd software?  Just settlements
> (and judgements on other licenses, like the Artistic License).

Take a look at this list, for example "Welte vs D-Link (2006)":

https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL Enforcement Cases

IANAL, YMMV, etc. but some of these look like court cases to me?

If we are to put anything, I think it's better to have an entry "What
is Free Software" or something of the sort, rather than defending
whether or not the GPL is even legally valid.  I don't think anyone
doubts that it is mostly valid these days, do they?  It's not a very
FAQ in my experience at least, but I might be wrong.

Of course, the US legal system is a sick joke so what do I know.

Message #14 received at 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#50446: Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of
 the GNU copyleft?" still relevant?
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 18:23:38 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> Take a look at this list, for example "Welte vs D-Link (2006)":
>
> https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL Enforcement Cases
>
> IANAL, YMMV, etc. but some of these look like court cases to me?

Yeah, outside the US there's been cases (a French court recently had a
case where they basically said that the GPL couldn't be used the way we
want it to be), but I assumed that this section was about the US...
since the FSF is a US company.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #17 received at 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se, rms <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50446: Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of the
 GNU copyleft?" still relevant?
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 19:26:33 +0300

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 18:23:38 +0200
> Cc: 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> 
> Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:
> 
> > Take a look at this list, for example "Welte vs D-Link (2006)":
> >
> > https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL Enforcement Cases
> >
> > IANAL, YMMV, etc. but some of these look like court cases to me?
> 
> Yeah, outside the US there's been cases (a French court recently had a
> case where they basically said that the GPL couldn't be used the way we
> want it to be), but I assumed that this section was about the US...
> since the FSF is a US company.

I suggest to wait for Richard to chime in, we none of us are lawyers
here.

Message #20 received at 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50446: Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of the
 GNU copyleft?" still relevant?
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:27:11 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I will talk with FSF people about what to do with this.  Thanks for
pointing it out.
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #23 received at 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#50446: Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of the
 GNU copyleft?" still relevant?
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:07:22 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Is the below entry in the Emacs FAQ still relevant?  These days, we
  > > have had several copyright infringement case involving the GPL.  Could
  > > we just delete the entry in the FAQ?

  > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_license_litigation

  > and I didn't see any judgements on GPL'd software?  Just settlements
  > (and judgements on other licenses, like the Artistic License).

It may not be "obsolete" but it should be replaced to refer people to
what we publish about the GPL in https://gnu.org/licenses/.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #26 received at 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#50446: Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of
 the GNU copyleft?" still relevant?
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 15:20:26 +0200

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

> It may not be "obsolete" but it should be replaced to refer people to
> what we publish about the GPL in https://gnu.org/licenses/.

OK; I've now removed the node from efaq and linked to that URL instead.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #31 received at 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#50446: Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of the
 GNU copyleft?" still relevant?
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:41:22 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > It may not be "obsolete" but it should be replaced to refer people to
  > > what we publish about the GPL in https://gnu.org/licenses/.

  > OK; I've now removed the node from efaq and linked to that URL instead.

Thanks.  Would you please show me what that item says now?

Where can I find the source code of this?  What repo, what file?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #34 received at 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50446: Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of the
 GNU copyleft?" still relevant?
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:43:54 +0200

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Thanks.  Would you please show me what that item says now?
>
> Where can I find the source code of this?  What repo, what file?

commit 8da1f03151f6b98d349fa8eb169514fd1f4bbe02
Author: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Date:   Thu Sep 9 15:19:56 2021 +0200

    Remove the "Real meaning of copyleft" node in efaq

    * doc/misc/efaq.texi (Real meaning of copyleft): Remove the
    section (bug#50446).
    (Common acronyms): Add a link to the GNU site's page about licenses.

diff --git a/doc/misc/efaq.texi b/doc/misc/efaq.texi
index 9b8fc86508..d5d1eb5e65 100644
--- a/doc/misc/efaq.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/efaq.texi
@@ -294,6 +294,9 @@ Common acronyms
 @item GPL
 GNU General Public License

+See @uref{https://gnu.org/licenses/, the GNU web site} for more
+information about the GPL.
+
 @end table

 The word ``free'' in the title of the Free Software Foundation refers to
@@ -312,7 +315,6 @@ General questions
 Free Software Foundation, and related organizations.

 @menu
-* Real meaning of copyleft::
 * Guidelines for mailing list postings::
 * Mailing list archives::
 * Reporting bugs::
@@ -320,36 +322,6 @@ General questions
 * Contacting the FSF::
 @end menu

-@node Real meaning of copyleft
-@section What is the real legal meaning of the GNU copyleft?
-@cindex Copyleft, real meaning of
-@cindex GPL, real meaning of
-@cindex General Public License, real meaning of
-@cindex Discussion of the GPL
-
-The real legal meaning of the GNU General Public License (copyleft) will
-only be known if and when a judge rules on its validity and scope.
-There has never been a copyright infringement case involving the GPL to
-set any precedents.  Although legal actions have been brought against
-companies for violating the terms of the GPL, so far all have been
-settled out of court (in favor of the plaintiffs).  Please take any
-discussion regarding this issue to
-@uref{https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss, the
-gnu-misc-discuss mailing list}, which was created to hold the
-extensive flame wars on the subject.
-
-RMS writes:
-
-@quotation
-The legal meaning of the GNU copyleft is less important than the spirit,
-which is that Emacs is a free software project and that work pertaining
-to Emacs should also be free software.  ``Free'' means that all users
-have the freedom to study, share, change and improve Emacs.  To make
-sure everyone has this freedom, pass along source code when you
-distribute any version of Emacs or a related program, and give the
-recipients the same freedom that you enjoyed.
-@end quotation
-
 @node Guidelines for mailing list postings
 @section  What are appropriate messages for the various Emacs mailing lists?
 @cindex Mailing lists, appropriate messages for

Message #37 received at 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 50446 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50446: Emacs FAQ entry "What is the real legal meaning of the
 GNU copyleft?" still relevant?
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:17:45 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Thanks.  That change is just right.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

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