GNU bug report logs - #51102
Document speedbar etags compatibility mode better

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Package: emacs; Severity: wishlist; Reported by: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>; dated Fri, 8 Oct 2021 21:37:01 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Changed bug title to 'Document speedbar etags compatibility mode better' from '[PATCH] Make speedbar XEmacs compatibility mode obsolete (etags)' Request was from Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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 (message from Stefan Kangas on Mon, 11 Oct 2021 07:18:24 -0700)
Subject: Re: bug#51102: [PATCH] Make speedbar XEmacs compatibility mode
 obsolete (etags)
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> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 07:18:24 -0700
> Cc: Eric Ludlam <ericludlam@HIDDEN>, zappo@HIDDEN, 51102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > OK, thanks.  So I think we should leave the etags support as an
> > optional feature, but remove the reference to XEmacs from the doc
> > string of the defcustom.
> 
> I think we should also document under which circumstances one would want
> to use etags instead of imenu.
> 
> For example, someone could check which languages have support in etags
> but not in imenu and list them.

Sure, if we know that, or can find out, that'd be useful information.
The languages supported by etags can be seen in "etags --help".




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#51102; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#51102: [PATCH] Make speedbar XEmacs compatibility mode
 obsolete (etags)
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> OK, thanks.  So I think we should leave the etags support as an
> optional feature, but remove the reference to XEmacs from the doc
> string of the defcustom.

I think we should also document under which circumstances one would want
to use etags instead of imenu.

For example, someone could check which languages have support in etags
but not in imenu and list them.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#51102; Package emacs. Full text available.
Removed tag(s) patch. Request was from Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#51102: [PATCH] Make speedbar XEmacs compatibility mode
 obsolete (etags)
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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--0000000000004489cc05ce054b23
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Sounds good.  Thanks.

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:37 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Eric Ludlam <ericludlam@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 13:57:58 -0400
> > Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, 51102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> >       "Eric M. Ludlam" <zappo@HIDDEN>
> >
> > Yes, that could be, though my recollection is that the opposite was more
> common back in the day.  I don't
> > know what the current balance might be.
> >
> > I spent a lot of time pulling in a wide array of taggers to solve this
> type of problem.  After speedbar I switched
> > to putting them in semantic tags instead which had more utility than the
> more focused speedbar feature
> > while still working fine in speedbar.
>
> OK, thanks.  So I think we should leave the etags support as an
> optional feature, but remove the reference to XEmacs from the doc
> string of the defcustom.
>

--0000000000004489cc05ce054b23
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<div dir=3D"auto">Sounds good.=C2=A0 Thanks.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:37 PM E=
li Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">&gt; From: Eric Ludlam &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:ericludlam@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">eric=
ludlam@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 13:57:58 -0400<br>
&gt; Cc: Stefan Kangas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stefan@HIDDEN" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">stefan@HIDDEN</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:5110=
2 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">51102@HIDDEN=
rg</a>, <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;Eric M. Ludlam&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:zappo@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">zappo@HIDDEN</a>&=
gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Yes, that could be, though my recollection is that the opposite was mo=
re common back in the day.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t<br>
&gt; know what the current balance might be.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I spent a lot of time pulling in a wide array of taggers to solve this=
 type of problem.=C2=A0 After speedbar I switched<br>
&gt; to putting them in semantic tags instead which had more utility than t=
he more focused speedbar feature<br>
&gt; while still working fine in speedbar.<br>
<br>
OK, thanks.=C2=A0 So I think we should leave the etags support as an<br>
optional feature, but remove the reference to XEmacs from the doc<br>
string of the defcustom.<br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000004489cc05ce054b23--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#51102; Package emacs. Full text available.

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 (message from Eric Ludlam on Sun, 10 Oct 2021 13:57:58 -0400)
Subject: Re: bug#51102: [PATCH] Make speedbar XEmacs compatibility mode
 obsolete (etags)
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> From: Eric Ludlam <ericludlam@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 13:57:58 -0400
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, 51102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 
> 	"Eric M. Ludlam" <zappo@HIDDEN>
> 
> Yes, that could be, though my recollection is that the opposite was more common back in the day.  I don't
> know what the current balance might be.
> 
> I spent a lot of time pulling in a wide array of taggers to solve this type of problem.  After speedbar I switched
> to putting them in semantic tags instead which had more utility than the more focused speedbar feature
> while still working fine in speedbar.

OK, thanks.  So I think we should leave the etags support as an
optional feature, but remove the reference to XEmacs from the doc
string of the defcustom.




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bug#51102; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Eric Ludlam <ericludlam@HIDDEN>
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 13:57:58 -0400
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Subject: Re: bug#51102: [PATCH] Make speedbar XEmacs compatibility mode
 obsolete (etags)
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Yes, that could be, though my recollection is that the opposite was more
common back in the day.  I don't know what the current balance might be.

I spent a lot of time pulling in a wide array of taggers to solve this type
of problem.  After speedbar I switched to putting them in semantic tags
instead which had more utility than the more focused speedbar feature while
still working fine in speedbar.

Eric

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:51 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Eric Ludlam <ericludlam@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:31:43 -0400
> > Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, 51102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> >       "Eric M. Ludlam" <zappo@HIDDEN>
> >
> > That was a very long time ago so I don't remember any specifics from
> then, but I can think of two reasons
> > imenu is better.
> >
> > One, you don't need to save the file and run an external command.
> >
> > Two, imenu has some nice binning it does to make the tags more navigable.
> >
> > I don't recall specific issues with etags within speedbar though, so
> "robust" is probably not the right word
> > here.
>
> Thanks.
>
> is it possible that some files will be in a programming language that
> imenu doesn't support, but etags does?
>

--000000000000f6984a05ce035ada
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Yes, that could be, though my recollection is that t=
he opposite was more common back in the day.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t know what th=
e current balance might be.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">I spent a lot of time pulling in a wide array of taggers to solve this =
type of problem.=C2=A0 After speedbar I switched to putting them in semanti=
c tags instead which had more utility than the more focused speedbar featur=
e while still working fine in speedbar.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">Eric<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:51 PM Eli Zaretskii =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">&gt; From: Eric Ludlam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:e=
ricludlam@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ericludlam@gmail.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:31:43 -0400<br>
&gt; Cc: Stefan Kangas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stefan@HIDDEN" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">stefan@HIDDEN</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:5110=
2 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">51102@HIDDEN=
rg</a>, <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;Eric M. Ludlam&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:zappo@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">zappo@HIDDEN</a>&=
gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; That was a very long time ago so I don&#39;t remember any specifics fr=
om then, but I can think of two reasons<br>
&gt; imenu is better.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; One, you don&#39;t need to save the file and run an external command.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Two, imenu has some nice binning it does to make the tags more navigab=
le.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I don&#39;t recall specific issues with etags within speedbar though, =
so &quot;robust&quot; is probably not the right word<br>
&gt; here.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
<br>
is it possible that some files will be in a programming language that<br>
imenu doesn&#39;t support, but etags does?<br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--000000000000f6984a05ce035ada--




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 (message from Eric Ludlam on Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:31:43 -0400)
Subject: Re: bug#51102: [PATCH] Make speedbar XEmacs compatibility mode
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> From: Eric Ludlam <ericludlam@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:31:43 -0400
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, 51102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 
> 	"Eric M. Ludlam" <zappo@HIDDEN>
> 
> That was a very long time ago so I don't remember any specifics from then, but I can think of two reasons
> imenu is better.
> 
> One, you don't need to save the file and run an external command.
> 
> Two, imenu has some nice binning it does to make the tags more navigable.
> 
> I don't recall specific issues with etags within speedbar though, so "robust" is probably not the right word
> here.  

Thanks.

is it possible that some files will be in a programming language that
imenu doesn't support, but etags does?




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Subject: Re: bug#51102: [PATCH] Make speedbar XEmacs compatibility mode
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--0000000000007cc81305ce022679
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Hi all.

That was a very long time ago so I don't remember any specifics from then,
but I can think of two reasons imenu is better.

One, you don't need to save the file and run an external command.

Two, imenu has some nice binning it does to make the tags more navigable.

I don't recall specific issues with etags within speedbar though, so
"robust" is probably not the right word here.

Eric


On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 3:52 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 00:08:06 -0700
> > Cc: 51102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, zappo@HIDDEN
> >
> > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >
> > > I also don't understand the "Etags support is not as robust as imenu
> > > support" part of the doc string.
> >
> > The author seems to have held the opinion that etags is not relevant on
> > Emacs:
> >
> > ;;; Tag Management -- etags  (old XEmacs compatibility part)
> >
> > That comment dates to 1998, when speedbar.el was first imported.
>
> Yes, I've seen that.  I'd like the author to elaborate on that: what
> exactly is not robust in the etags support by Speedbar?
>

--0000000000007cc81305ce022679
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Hi all.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>That was a very long time ago so I don&#39;t remember any specifics from t=
hen, but I can think of two reasons imenu is better.</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">One, you don&#39;t need to save the file and r=
un an external command.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
Two, imenu has some nice binning it does to make the tags more navigable.</=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I don&#39;t recall specif=
ic issues with etags within speedbar though, so &quot;robust&quot; is proba=
bly not the right word here.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">Eric</div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"l=
tr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 3:52 AM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">&gt; From: Stefan Kangas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stefan=
@marxist.se" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">stefan@HIDDEN</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt; Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 00:08:06 -0700<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:51102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"=
noreferrer">51102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:zappo@HIDDEN" tar=
get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">zappo@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" re=
l=3D"noreferrer">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; writes:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I also don&#39;t understand the &quot;Etags support is not as rob=
ust as imenu<br>
&gt; &gt; support&quot; part of the doc string.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The author seems to have held the opinion that etags is not relevant o=
n<br>
&gt; Emacs:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ;;; Tag Management -- etags=C2=A0 (old XEmacs compatibility part)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; That comment dates to 1998, when speedbar.el was first imported.<br>
<br>
Yes, I&#39;ve seen that.=C2=A0 I&#39;d like the author to elaborate on that=
: what<br>
exactly is not robust in the etags support by Speedbar?<br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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 (message from Stefan Kangas on Sat, 9 Oct 2021 00:08:06 -0700)
Subject: Re: bug#51102: [PATCH] Make speedbar XEmacs compatibility mode
 obsolete (etags)
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> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 00:08:06 -0700
> Cc: 51102 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, zappo@HIDDEN
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > I also don't understand the "Etags support is not as robust as imenu
> > support" part of the doc string.
> 
> The author seems to have held the opinion that etags is not relevant on
> Emacs:
> 
> ;;; Tag Management -- etags  (old XEmacs compatibility part)
> 
> That comment dates to 1998, when speedbar.el was first imported.

Yes, I've seen that.  I'd like the author to elaborate on that: what
exactly is not robust in the etags support by Speedbar?




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Subject: Re: bug#51102: [PATCH] Make speedbar XEmacs compatibility mode
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> I also don't understand the "Etags support is not as robust as imenu
> support" part of the doc string.

The author seems to have held the opinion that etags is not relevant on
Emacs:

;;; Tag Management -- etags  (old XEmacs compatibility part)

That comment dates to 1998, when speedbar.el was first imported.




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 (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 8 Oct 2021 17:36:04 -0400)
Subject: Re: bug#51102: [PATCH] Make speedbar XEmacs compatibility mode
 obsolete (etags)
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> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 17:36:04 -0400
> Cc: "Eric M. Ludlam" <zappo@HIDDEN>
> 
>     (defcustom speedbar-use-imenu-flag t
>       "Non-nil means use imenu for file parsing, nil to use etags.
>     XEmacs prior to 20.4 doesn't support imenu, therefore the default is to
>     use etags instead.  Etags support is not as robust as imenu support."
>     :tag "Use Imenu for tags"
>     :group 'speedbar
>     :type 'boolean)
> 
> Is there any reason to keep the etags support around, or should we
> install something like the attached patch?

I see no reason to remove etags support.  I also don't understand the
"Etags support is not as robust as imenu support" part of the doc
string.




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--000000000000a5b0a005cdde2ac6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Severity: wishlist

The documentation for `speedbar-use-imenu-flag' says:

    (defcustom speedbar-use-imenu-flag t
      "Non-nil means use imenu for file parsing, nil to use etags.
    XEmacs prior to 20.4 doesn't support imenu, therefore the default is to
    use etags instead.  Etags support is not as robust as imenu support."
    :tag "Use Imenu for tags"
    :group 'speedbar
    :type 'boolean)

Is there any reason to keep the etags support around, or should we
install something like the attached patch?

--000000000000a5b0a005cdde2ac6
Content-Type: text/x-diff; charset="US-ASCII"; 
	name="0001-Make-speedbar-XEmacs-compatibility-mode-obsolete-eta.patch"
Content-Disposition: attachment; 
	filename="0001-Make-speedbar-XEmacs-compatibility-mode-obsolete-eta.patch"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
X-Attachment-Id: d1089bb77953ecaf_0.1

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--000000000000a5b0a005cdde2ac6--




Acknowledgement sent to Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to zappo@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to zappo@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#51102; Package emacs. Full text available.
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Last modified: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 03:45:01 UTC

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Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.