GNU bug report logs - #51196
29.0.50; python.el eldoc problems

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2 <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 29.0.50; python.el eldoc problems
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 20:42:53 -0300

Hi all,

there are a number of issues with eldoc support in python.el, as in many
areas in which this module tries IMHO to be too smart. At the core of
these problems is the fact that eldoc will block if the underlying
python process is not idle at the moment of the call. Seemingly some
mechanisms are in place to prevent this but they are inconsistent,
dangerous, inconvenient and complex:

- Inconsistent: the "auto doc" in the echo area feature
  (i.e. python-eldoc-function) times out after
  python-eldoc-function-timout, but the manually triggered (C-c C-f,
  python-eldoc-at-point) will block emacs...

- Dangerous: ...until either the underlying process becomes idle again
  or the user aborts python-eldoc-at-point, for example by pressing C-g,
  which also aborts the action going on in the underlying process. So
  the user is faced with the choice between being able to use emacs or
  complete the real job that supposedly emacs is facilitating.

- Inconvenient: even in the case that does timeout (by default after 1
  second) once it has timed out it won't try to show documentation
  again, except when the user had previously set
  python-eldoc-function-timeout-permanent to nil, in which case it will
  immediately reattempt one time after another, all this resulting in an
  extremely laggy experience. Alternatively, the user can laboriously
  set python-eldoc-get-doc to t in order to resume the "auto doc"
  feature.

- Complex: see my previous three points.

I've expressed this opinion before regarding the autocompletion
mechanism, which shows similar shortcomings, I believe that the best
options are:

- Have a sane, solid and simple python.el with good syntax highlighting,
  movements commands, folding, etc. and leave the cleverness to elpy,
  lsp-mode, eglot, emacs-jupyter or whatever.

- If we still want some basic autocompletion and documentation features
  in this module, then let's do it right and open a thread in the
  underlying process and talk to it, avoiding the flaky and dangerous
  mechanism of pretending that emacs is the user typing.

That said, I'm not against keeping a very simple "send region to REPL"
thing, because in this case a blocking behavior is to be expected and
there is little magic going on.

Best regards,
Carlos

---

In GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, NS appkit-2022.60 Version 11.6 (Build 20G165))
 of 2021-10-07 built on Carloss-MacBook-Pro.local
Repository revision: d2611920685ca415a1d85ffb9567b968518028d6
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2022
System Description:  macOS 11.6

Configured using:
 'configure --without-native-compilation'

Configured features:
ACL DBUS GLIB GMP GNUTLS JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NOTIFY KQUEUE
NS PDUMPER PNG RSVG THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS XIM ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Python

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Message #8 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2 <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: 29.0.50; python.el eldoc problems
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 23:05:20 -0300

I've been delving into the different timeout mechanisms in python.el:

python-shell-completion-native-output-timeout 5.0
python-shell-completion-native-try-output-timeout 1.0
python-eldoc-function-timeout 1
python-eldoc-function-timeout-permanent t
This is in bad shape, in addition to points I've already made above:

- Even though in a clunky way, eldoc at least stops trying after a
timeout in order to avoid causing unbearable UI lags, but that's not
the case with c-a-p. I imagine the rationale here is that c-a-p is not
auto-triggered as eldoc is, but that's not true of company and other
completion backends that will trigger completions under the hood, so
you could end up with constant 5s lag in input.

- Apparently there is no timeout for non-native completions, as in the
case of C-c C-f described above this can freeze emacs, but in this
case it doesn't even have to be manually triggered.

- More complexity but the attempts still fall short. Probably ad hoc
patches have been piling up over the years.

Perhaps we can improve the timeout strategy, simplify it and make it
more coherent, and thus avoid throwing the baby out with the
bathwater. It won't be perfect since documentation sometimes will be
missing, completions sometimes will be missing, the prompt count will
still change mysteriously, but at least it will be safe and
comprehensible.

Best regards,
Carlos

Message #11 received at 51196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel <at> gmail.com>
To: Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 51196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#51196: 29.0.50; python.el eldoc problems
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 22:22:29 +0200

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 20:42, Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2 <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> I've expressed this opinion before regarding the autocompletion
> mechanism, which shows similar shortcomings, I believe that the best
> options are:
>
> - Have a sane, solid and simple python.el with good syntax highlighting,
>   movements commands, folding, etc. and leave the cleverness to elpy,
>   lsp-mode, eglot, emacs-jupyter or whatever.

But the problematic Eldoc functionality is disabled by default, right?
So leaving it there doesn't hurt anyone --- except for the unwitting
user who doesn't know that this feature is kind of broken.

>
> - If we still want some basic autocompletion and documentation features
>   in this module, then let's do it right and open a thread in the
>   underlying process and talk to it, avoiding the flaky and dangerous
>   mechanism of pretending that emacs is the user typing.

Personally I have zero motivation to implement this, because it would
still require evaluating code before one can get completion or
docstrings.  Nowadays there are decent static analyzers for Python out
there.

Message #14 received at 51196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel <at> gmail.com>
To: Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 51196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#51196: 29.0.50; python.el eldoc problems
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 22:30:41 +0200

On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 at 23:05, Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2 <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> - Apparently there is no timeout for non-native completions, as in the
> case of C-c C-f described above this can freeze emacs, but in this
> case it doesn't even have to be manually triggered.

Is it even possible, technically, to add a timeout for non-native
completion?  I think this would require sending a break signal to cancel
the completions computation, which seems scary.

I thought you had a good argument for disabling native completion by
default, but this might speak against it.

Message #17 received at 51196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2 <at> gmail.com>
To: Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 51196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#51196: 29.0.50; python.el eldoc problems
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:33:57 -0300

Hi Augusto,

> > - Have a sane, solid and simple python.el with good syntax highlighting,
> >   movements commands, folding, etc. and leave the cleverness to elpy,
> >   lsp-mode, eglot, emacs-jupyter or whatever.
>
> But the problematic Eldoc functionality is disabled by default, right?
> So leaving it there doesn't hurt anyone --- except for the unwitting
> user who doesn't know that this feature is kind of broken.

No, it's not, all the magic is enabled by default, only piecemeal
measures have been taken over the years in order to prevent blocking
behavior, so for example now eldoc disables itself forever after 1s
timeout. But that's not true of non-native completion AFAICS and
it certainly isn't of C-c C-f (help on symbol). And improving on this
by adding even more special cases doesn't sound like a good idea.

Best regards,
Carlos

Message #20 received at 51196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel <at> gmail.com>
To: Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 51196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#51196: 29.0.50; python.el eldoc problems
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:15:36 +0200

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 at 17:33, Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2 <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Augusto,
>
>> > - Have a sane, solid and simple python.el with good syntax highlighting,
>> >   movements commands, folding, etc. and leave the cleverness to elpy,
>> >   lsp-mode, eglot, emacs-jupyter or whatever.
>>
>> But the problematic Eldoc functionality is disabled by default, right?
>> So leaving it there doesn't hurt anyone --- except for the unwitting
>> user who doesn't know that this feature is kind of broken.
>
> No, it's not, all the magic is enabled by default, only piecemeal
> measures have been taken over the years in order to prevent blocking
> behavior, so for example now eldoc disables itself forever after 1s
> timeout.

I see.  I never noticed this because Eglot masks the completion/eldoc
functions from python.el.

As you already mentioned, the biggest problem here is to use the same
Python process/thread for both REPL interaction _and_
completion/documentation stuff.  Individually, each of these things
works alright, but mixing the two is just never going to work
flawlessly.

> But that's not true of non-native completion AFAICS and
> it certainly isn't of C-c C-f (help on symbol).

If the user explicitly types C-c C-f, then I see no problem in the
blocking behavior.

> And improving on this by adding even more special cases doesn't sound
> like a good idea.
>
> Best regards,
> Carlos

Message #23 received at 51196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2 <at> gmail.com>
To: Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 51196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#51196: 29.0.50; python.el eldoc problems
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 15:49:38 -0300

Hi Augusto,

> I see.  I never noticed this because Eglot masks the completion/eldoc
> functions from python.el.

I guess this is often the case. There are some scenarios in which you
mainly interact with your interpreter from a python buffer (as in your
code-cells) for which naive (not naTive :) ) runtime completion with
no static inference bells and whistles may still be desirable. IIRC
elpy has some kind of fallback from jedi completion to runtime
completion fed by the inferior interpreter. elpy also implements a
small rpc mechanism for all this stuff, so it doesn't share the
shortcomings of python.el while still not requiring a full-fledged
static analyzer. Sadly elpy is in low-maintenance mode now.
emacs-jupyter also gets this right when completing from its inferior
kernels, it even provides a minor mode that is able to pull off its
magic inside org babel blocks! Anyway, static analyzers are getting
better every day and the point of runtime completion is in turn
getting mooter every day, except perhaps in that it still is the more
lightweight alternative.

> As you already mentioned, the biggest problem here is to use the same
> Python process/thread for both REPL interaction _and_
> completion/documentation stuff.

Yes, there are race conditions between emacs and its user, to put it somehow.

> > But that's not true of non-native completion AFAICS and
> > it certainly isn't of C-c C-f (help on symbol).
>
> If the user explicitly types C-c C-f, then I see no problem in the
> blocking behavior.

I don't think we can ask the user to remember checking its inferior
process before requesting quick help on a symbol and, anyway, we don't
need to agree on this because after fixing the implicit cases
this one will follow suit for free.

I'm about to retire in a few months and I will have the time to
undertake a slightly more ambitious change regarding these rough edges
of python.el, but I won't start without some level of consensus around
the issues and the solution. After that, I wouldn't mind doing some
maintenance of the module.

Best regards,
Carlos

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