GNU bug report logs - #51696
Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix

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Package: guix; Reported by: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>; dated Mon, 8 Nov 2021 23:48:01 UTC; Maintainer for guix is bug-guix@HIDDEN.

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
References: <eayKDuGx4t0aiaoSl8cxZkg_pz-Ior4rCRR9HaH0YD6U8bKTcijTIOqnmQ7YffO5J9yBAep7X2mj_mkZSU9jDIyFbkIiyIyeUIv5Z4Zjlio=@rixotstudio.cz>
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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 15:04:27 +0100
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 09:07:51 +0100")
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Hi!

I echo Mark=E2=80=99s and zimoun=E2=80=99s sentiments here.

Furthermore, a lot of people on the #guix IRC channel are already
accessing it via Matrix, so I don=E2=80=99t see why we=E2=80=99d need volun=
teers to
spend energy on an additional instant messaging space.

Thanks,
Ludo=E2=80=99.




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN>
From: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
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> I see.  For my usage, that's too much, as I'm not comfortable dedicating=
 up to a quarter of my system memory for a real time text messaging applic=
ation. -- Maxim
> Could you clarify what benefits would "adopting" the Matrix channel and =
space provide?  Isn't there already a bridge to libera.chat (thus #guix) i=
n Matrix? -- Maxim

My proposal doesn't require you to use the application and if the resource=
 requirements for the initial sync are unwanted then that can be disabled =
at the cost of not getting your already sent and received messages and joi=
ned channels.
FWIW the sync is not a problem in terms of resources on my devices as the =
CPU scheduler optimizes the load as the sync is not time sensitive.

I am asking for an adoption of the Matrix channel and the space with a bri=
dges so that users can use either of those protocols (possibly more) to be=
 in a contact with the guix-relevant channels.

..without the need to set up custom spaces like I am doing now as that is =
an annoyance that increases the complexity of the setup.

Which also significantly decreases the likelyhood of people making their o=
wn channels without disclosing it's unofficiality that discourages new use=
rs from trying Guix (which happened to me and 3 other people I know as i w=
as lead to believe that Guix is just weird arch that can't be configured w=
ithout implementation of parametrization of packages).

Real life example: PINE64 community management just with puppet users (use=
rs which are integrated in the protocol) instead of relay bridges (message=
s like `[I] alice: message` to show message from alice that was sent on an=
 IRC).

> Yes, I'm aware of it; as I wrote earlier, I had tried it and found it to=
o buggy to be usable, unfortunately. -- Maxim

Consider filing a bug report so that those issues can be tracked and actio=
nable as (I didn't try matrix on weechat) it seems that the implementation=
 is mature and usable enough.

-- Jacob "Kreyren" Hrbek

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original M=
essage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90

On Saturday, November 13th, 2021 at 1:58 AM, Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.courno=
yer@HIDDEN> wrote:

> Hi Jacob,
> =


> Jacob Hrbek kreyren@HIDDEN writes:
> =


> > > I was curious because you said in your experience the clients other =
than Element worked well (which is not my experience). -- Maxim
> > =


> > To clarify I meant that I didn't experience any issues sending or rece=
iving messages on those clients and I asked "Is there any reason why shoul=
d I check them?" in case you are aware of an issue that I should check.
> > =


> > > When I used tried using it a couple years back it was consuming easi=
ly 1 GiB of memory in the browser, sometimes 2. -- Maxim
> > =


> > The initial sync takes around this on my system as well which seems to=
 grow depending on the complexity of the account e.g. account that joined =
X amount of channels and sent X amount of messages will need more resource=
s for the login
> > =


> > procedure due to the zero knowledge federation.
> =


> I see. For my usage, that's too much, as I'm not comfortable dedicating
> =


> up to a quarter of my system memory for a real time text messaging
> =


> application.
> =


> > Could you try the client again for fresh data ideally outside of the m=
atrix.org homeserver? I always have issues on the upstream homeserver so i=
t makes me feel like its not representative of the network.
> > =


> > FWIW there is a script for weechat that integrates matrix as well.
> =


> Yes, I'm aware of it; as I wrote earlier, I had tried it and found it
> =


> too buggy to be usable, unfortunately.
> =


> Could you clarify what benefits would "adopting" the Matrix channel and
> =


> space provide? Isn't there already a bridge to libera.chat (thus #guix)
> =


> in Matrix?
> =


> Thanks,
> =


> Maxim
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Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN>
To: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 20:58:25 -0500
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 (Jacob Hrbek's message of "Fri, 12 Nov 2021 15:32:17 +0000")
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Hi Jacob,

Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN> writes:

>> I was curious because you said in your experience the clients other than Element worked well (which is not my experience). -- Maxim
>
> To clarify I meant that I didn't experience any issues sending or receiving messages on those clients and I asked "Is there any reason why should I check them?" in case you are aware of an issue that I should check.
>
>> When I used tried using it a couple years back it was consuming easily 1 GiB of memory in the browser, sometimes 2. -- Maxim
>
> The initial sync takes around this on my system as well which seems to grow depending on the complexity of the account e.g. account that joined X amount of channels and sent X amount of messages will need more resources for the login
> procedure due to the zero knowledge federation.

I see.  For my usage, that's too much, as I'm not comfortable dedicating
up to a quarter of my system memory for a real time text messaging
application.

> Could you try the client again for fresh data ideally outside of the matrix.org homeserver? I always have issues on the upstream homeserver so it makes me feel like its not representative of the network.
>
> ---
>
> FWIW there is a script for weechat that integrates matrix as well.

Yes, I'm aware of it; as I wrote earlier, I had tried it and found it
too buggy to be usable, unfortunately.

Could you clarify what benefits would "adopting" the Matrix channel and
space provide?  Isn't there already a bridge to libera.chat (thus #guix)
in Matrix?

Thanks,

Maxim




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN
From: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
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> I was curious because you said in your experience the clients other than =
Element worked well (which is not my experience). -- Maxim

To clarify I meant that I didn't experience any issues sending or receiving=
 messages on those clients and I asked "Is there any reason why should I ch=
eck them?" in case you are aware of an issue that I should check.

> When I used tried using it a couple years back it was consuming easily 1 =
GiB of memory in the browser, sometimes 2. -- Maxim

The initial sync takes around this on my system as well which seems to grow=
 depending on the complexity of the account e.g. account that joined X amou=
nt of channels and sent X amount of messages will need more resources for t=
he login procedure due to the zero knowledge federation.

Could you try the client again for fresh data ideally outside of the matrix=
.org homeserver? I always have issues on the upstream homeserver so it make=
s me feel like its not representative of the network.

\---

FWIW there is a script for weechat that integrates matrix as well.



Sent from ProtonMail mobile



\-------- Original Message --------
On Nov 12, 2021, 15:52, Maxim Cournoyer < maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN> wrote:

>
>
>
> Hi Jacob,
>
> Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> >> I'm curious; have you tried any Matrix client that do not require a br=
owser or need a large amount of system resources
> > to operate? --Maxim
> >
> > I was doing quick testing of other clients +- 7 months ago and decided =
to use element. I didn't do any additional testing
> > after that. Is there any reason why should I check them?
>
> I was curious because you said in your experience the clients other than
> Element worked well (which is not my experience).
>
> > I am not aware of any matrix's client that requires a large amount of p=
rocessing resources to operate (excluding miitrix
> > for Nintendo DS allegedly which is allegedly due to the used Infrastruc=
ture on the device).. would be a major problem for
> > me if it did as my devices are optimized for battery life and tent to o=
verheat on such use.
>
> When I used tried using it a couple years back it was consuming easily 1
> GiB of memory in the browser, sometimes 2. That's what I meant by
> "large amount of resources". In comparison, the WeeChat IRC client I
> use holds in less than 20 MiB of RAM.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Maxim
>
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Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN>
To: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
References: <eayKDuGx4t0aiaoSl8cxZkg_pz-Ior4rCRR9HaH0YD6U8bKTcijTIOqnmQ7YffO5J9yBAep7X2mj_mkZSU9jDIyFbkIiyIyeUIv5Z4Zjlio=@rixotstudio.cz>
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 (Jacob Hrbek's message of "Fri, 12 Nov 2021 07:25:29 +0000")
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Hi Jacob,

Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN> writes:

>> I'm curious; have you tried any Matrix client that do not require a browser or need a large amount of system resources
> to operate? --Maxim
>
> I was doing quick testing of other clients +- 7 months ago and decided to use element. I didn't do any additional testing
> after that. Is there any reason why should I check them?

I was curious because you said in your experience the clients other than
Element worked well (which is not my experience).

> I am not aware of any matrix's client that requires a large amount of processing resources to operate (excluding miitrix
> for Nintendo DS allegedly which is allegedly due to the used Infrastructure on the device).. would be a major problem for
> me if it did as my devices are optimized for battery life and tent to overheat on such use.

When I used tried using it a couple years back it was consuming easily 1
GiB of memory in the browser, sometimes 2.  That's what I meant by
"large amount of resources".  In comparison, the WeeChat IRC client I
use holds in less than 20 MiB of RAM.

Thanks,

Maxim




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN
From: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
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> I'm curious; have you tried any Matrix client that do not require a brows=
er or need a large amount of system resources to operate? --Maxim

I was doing quick testing of other clients +- 7 months ago and decided to u=
se element. I didn't do any additional testing after that. Is there any rea=
son why should I check them?

I am not aware of any matrix's client that requires a large amount of proce=
ssing resources to operate (excluding miitrix for Nintendo DS allegedly whi=
ch is allegedly due to the used Infrastructure on the device).. would be a =
major problem for me if it did as my devices are optimized for battery life=
 and tent to overheat on such use.

I assume that you want to make the argument that it requires more processin=
g resources than IRC?
That is true by design as Matrix is doing E2EE which I found to be more res=
ource efficient and usable in comparison to Hexchat with fishlim.

Sent from ProtonMail mobile



\-------- Original Message --------
On Nov 12, 2021, 06:40, Maxim Cournoyer < maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN> wrote:

>
>
>
> \-CC support@HIDDEN (since my reply here doesn't need to involve them=
)
>
> Hi,
>
> Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> >> What is the difference between a Matrix space and a Matrix channel? --=
 Maxim
> >
> > In the analogy of files and directories: Matrix space is a directory fo=
r channels. (see attachment matrix-space.png)
> >
> > In the image you can see matrix space called GNU Guix (unofficiality
> > disclosed in the description) containing channel \#guix \#guile
> > \#guix-offtopic \#guix-wiki which are bridged to [libera.chat][] with G=
uix
> > System.. channel on Matrix
> >
> >> From my memory the reality is that most of the clients are not quite t=
here yet... -- Maxim
> >
> > That is not my experience I suggest you to try them again and be specif=
ic about the issues so that they can be investigated.
>
> I'm curious; have you tried any Matrix client that do not require a
> browser or need a large amount of system resources to operate?
>
> >> To really be in full control, ideally we'd have a Shepherd service to =
administer it. Is this something you'd be motivated to work on? -- Maxim
> >
> > I need matrix homeserver on Guix myself so it would align with my work
> > when I figure out how to maintain a cluster of computers using public
> > repository which CI/CD calls guix commands for push-based deployment
> > which should be any day now.
>
> Nice!
>
> >> Moderation is something that I'm a bit worried about; at least
> >> speaking for myself I'd want to continue doing it from IRC and it'd
> >> need to sync to Matrix transparently, not the other way around. Is
> >> this possible? -- Maxim
> >
> > I am not qualified to answer that as I don't do cross-protocol moderati=
on, CC Matrix support
>
> OK, let's see.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Maxim
>


[libera.chat]: http://libera.chat
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Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
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On Thu Nov 11, 2021 at 11:40 PM CST, Maxim Cournoyer wrote:
> I'm curious; have you tried any Matrix client that do not require a
> browser or need a large amount of system resources to operate?
I'd like to chime in to say nheko is a pretty good matrix client. Does
not use electron. Seems fairly light on resources from what I've seen.




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

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From: Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN>
To: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
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-CC support@HIDDEN (since my reply here doesn't need to involve them)

Hi,

Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN> writes:

>> What is the difference between a Matrix space and a Matrix channel? -- Maxim
>
> In the analogy of files and directories: Matrix space is a directory for channels. (see attachment matrix-space.png)
>
> In the image you can see matrix space called GNU Guix (unofficiality
> disclosed in the description) containing channel #guix #guile
> #guix-offtopic #guix-wiki which are bridged to libera.chat with Guix
> System.. channel on Matrix
>
>> From my memory the reality is that most of the clients are not quite there yet... -- Maxim
>
> That is not my experience I suggest you to try them again and be specific about the issues so that they can be investigated.

I'm curious; have you tried any Matrix client that do not require a
browser or need a large amount of system resources to operate?

>> To really be in full control, ideally we'd have a Shepherd service to administer it.  Is this something you'd be motivated to work on? -- Maxim
>
> I need matrix homeserver on Guix myself so it would align with my work
> when I figure out how to maintain a cluster of computers using public
> repository which CI/CD calls guix commands for push-based deployment
> which should be any day now.

Nice!

>> Moderation is something that I'm a bit worried about; at least
>> speaking for myself I'd want to continue doing it from IRC and it'd
>> need to sync to Matrix transparently, not the other way around.  Is
>> this possible? -- Maxim
>
> I am not qualified to answer that as I don't do cross-protocol moderation, CC Matrix support

OK, let's see.

Thanks,

Maxim




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bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
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Reply-To: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>
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> What is the difference between a Matrix space and a Matrix channel? -- M=
axim

In the analogy of files and directories: Matrix space is a directory for c=
hannels. (see attachment matrix-space.png)

In the image you can see matrix space called GNU Guix (unofficiality discl=
osed in the description) containing channel #guix #guile #guix-offtopic #g=
uix-wiki which are bridged to libera.chat with Guix System.. channel on Ma=
trix

> From my memory the reality is that most of the clients are not quite the=
re yet... -- Maxim

That is not my experience I suggest you to try them again and be specific =
about the issues so that they can be investigated.

> To really be in full control, ideally we'd have a Shepherd service to ad=
minister it.  Is this something you'd be motivated to work on? -- Maxim

I need matrix homeserver on Guix myself so it would align with my work whe=
n I figure out how to maintain a cluster of computers using public reposit=
ory which CI/CD calls guix commands for push-based deployment which should=
 be any day now.

> Moderation is something that I'm a bit worried about; at least speaking =
for myself I'd want to continue doing it from IRC and it'd need to sync to=
 Matrix transparently, not the other way around.  Is this possible? -- Max=
im

I am not qualified to answer that as I don't do cross-protocol moderation,=
 CC Matrix support

-- Jacob "Kreyren" Hrbek

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original M=
essage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90

On Friday, November 12th, 2021 at 3:25 AM, Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoye=
r@HIDDEN> wrote:

> Hi Jacob,
> =


> I think Mark had valid concerns about control.
> =


> Jacob Hrbek kreyren@HIDDEN writes:
> =


> > My motivation for this proposal is to make GNU Guix more accessible
> > =


> > and user-friendly so that I can get my team to use it painlessly to
> > =


> > organize the work as I currently use NiXOS where nixlang is giving me
> > =


> > anxiety and it's too limited to my liking.
> > =


> > I prefer zero trust model so I am happy with transferring the matrix s=
pace to the chosen GNU representative.
> > =


> > About the channel I sent a message to the owner and waiting for a repl=
y.
> =


> What is the difference between a Matrix space and a Matrix channel?
> =


> > About matrix I am proposing to run our own homeserver that GNU Guix ha=
ve full control over.
> > =


> > I helped Ian Kelling with the implementation for FSF when they were mo=
ving off of Freenode so i assume that we can just fork the implementation =
or adapt it in GNU guile?
> > =


> > Note: FSF decided to not move on matrix as one of it's clients is
> > =


> > using Google's reCAPTCHA for registration
> > =


> > (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/3220) and is
> > =


> > allegedly using electron.. FWIW i never understood the reasoning as
> > =


> > the homeserver does not depend on the client and there are multiple
> > =


> > alternatives (https://matrix.org/clients).
> =


> From my memory the reality is that most of the clients are not quite
> =


> there yet, so to get a good experience one must use the official web
> =


> client (Element) or the Android one, both of which pose freedom
> =


> challenges (is the JavaScript tagged to run in GNU LibreJS?). The
> =


> desktop client is also web based, probably unpackagHopefully
> =


> that changed in the last couple years. I remember trying the (abandoned
> =


> then) Emacs-based client and also the Weechat client. I ended up not
> =


> submitting the package to Guix, since it was too buggy (using 100% of
> =


> CPU, very slow to refresh, and had other annoyances I forgot).
> =


> > About bridges they are self-hosted (https://matrix.org/bridges) so GNU
> > =


> > Guix would be in full control over them, but some
> > =


> > e.g. https://t2bot.io provide it for free to the general public
> > =


> > without a guaranteed uptime.
> =


> To really be in full control, ideally we'd have a Shepherd service to
> =


> administer it. Is this something you'd be motivated to work on?
> =


> > I believe it also answers the question about moderating? There are
> > =


> > also moderation bots (https://matrix.org/bots/) such as mjolnil
> > =


> > https://github.com/matrix-org/mjolnir that afaik can be configured
> > =


> > that if user is banned on matrix that it will issue the ban across all
> > =


> > bridges and if needed the space.
> =


> Moderation is something that I'm a bit worried about; at least speaking
> =


> for myself I'd want to continue doing it from IRC and it'd need to sync
> =


> to Matrix transparently, not the other way around. Is this possible?
> =


> Thanks,
> =


> Maxim
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Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN>
To: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
References: <eayKDuGx4t0aiaoSl8cxZkg_pz-Ior4rCRR9HaH0YD6U8bKTcijTIOqnmQ7YffO5J9yBAep7X2mj_mkZSU9jDIyFbkIiyIyeUIv5Z4Zjlio=@rixotstudio.cz>
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 (Jacob Hrbek's message of "Tue, 09 Nov 2021 22:10:32 +0000")
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Hi Jacob,

I think Mark had valid concerns about control.

Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN> writes:

> My motivation for this proposal is to make GNU Guix more accessible
> and user-friendly so that I can get my team to use it painlessly to
> organize the work as I currently use NiXOS where nixlang is giving me
> anxiety and it's too limited to my liking.
>
> I prefer zero trust model so I am happy with transferring the matrix space to the chosen GNU representative.
> About the channel I sent a message to the owner and waiting for a reply.

What is the difference between a Matrix space and a Matrix channel?

> About matrix I am proposing to run our own homeserver that GNU Guix have full control over.
> I helped Ian Kelling with the implementation for FSF when they were moving off of Freenode so i assume that we can just fork the implementation or adapt it in GNU guile?
>
> Note: FSF decided to not move on matrix as one of it's clients is
> using Google's reCAPTCHA for registration
> (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/3220) and is
> allegedly using electron.. FWIW i never understood the reasoning as
> the homeserver does not depend on the client and there are multiple
> alternatives (https://matrix.org/clients).

From my memory the reality is that most of the clients are not quite
there yet, so to get a good experience one must use the official web
client (Element) or the Android one, both of which pose freedom
challenges (is the JavaScript tagged to run in GNU LibreJS?).  The
desktop client is also web based, probably unpackagHopefully
that changed in the last couple years.  I remember trying the (abandoned
then) Emacs-based client and also the Weechat client.  I ended up not
submitting the package to Guix, since it was too buggy (using 100% of
CPU, very slow to refresh, and had other annoyances I forgot).

> About bridges they are self-hosted (https://matrix.org/bridges) so GNU
> Guix would be in full control over them, but some
> e.g. https://t2bot.io provide it for free to the general public
> without a guaranteed uptime.

To really be in full control, ideally we'd have a Shepherd service to
administer it.  Is this something you'd be motivated to work on?

> I believe it also answers the question about moderating? There are
> also moderation bots (https://matrix.org/bots/) such as mjolnil
> <https://github.com/matrix-org/mjolnir> that afaik can be configured
> that if user is banned on matrix that it will issue the ban across all
> bridges and if needed the space.

Moderation is something that I'm a bit worried about; at least speaking
for myself I'd want to continue doing it from IRC and it'd need to sync
to Matrix transparently, not the other way around.  Is this possible?

Thanks,

Maxim




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: Mark H Weaver <mhw@HIDDEN>
From: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
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My motivation for this proposal is to make GNU Guix more accessible and us=
er-friendly so that I can get my team to use it painlessly to organize the=
 work as I currently use NiXOS where nixlang is giving me anxiety and it's=
 too limited to my liking.

I prefer zero trust model so I am happy with transferring the matrix space=
 to the chosen GNU representative.
About the channel I sent a message to the owner and waiting for a reply.

About matrix I am proposing to run our own homeserver that GNU Guix have f=
ull control over.
I helped Ian Kelling with the implementation for FSF when they were moving=
 off of Freenode so i assume that we can just fork the implementation or a=
dapt it in GNU guile?

Note: FSF decided to not move on matrix as one of it's clients is using Go=
ogle's reCAPTCHA for registration (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-do=
c/issues/3220) and is allegedly using electron.. FWIW i never understood t=
he reasoning as the homeserver does not depend on the client and there are=
 multiple alternatives (https://matrix.org/clients).

About bridges they are self-hosted (https://matrix.org/bridges) so GNU Gui=
x would be in full control over them, but some e.g. https://t2bot.io provi=
de it for free to the general public without a guaranteed uptime.

I believe it also answers the question about moderating? There are also mo=
deration bots (https://matrix.org/bots/) such as mjolnil <https://github.c=
om/matrix-org/mjolnir> that afaik can be configured that if user is banned=
 on matrix that it will issue the ban across all bridges and if needed the=
 space.

FWIW on Matrix we don't have to trust the "trusted" people who run it if G=
NU Guix has their own homeserver.

-- Jacob "Kreyren" Hrbek

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original M=
essage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90

On Tuesday, November 9th, 2021 at 5:02 AM, Mark H Weaver <mhw@HIDDEN> =
wrote:

> Hi Jacob,
> =


> Jacob Hrbek kreyren@HIDDEN writes:
> =


> > There is an unofficial GNU Guix community on matrix (#guix:matrix.org)
> > =


> > with 375 members and an unofficial matrix space that i've created
> > =


> > (https://matrix.to/#/#gnu-guix:tchncs.de) which consist of
> > =


> > IRC<->Matrix bridged channels.
> > =


> > Proposing for GNU Guix to adopt this community, it's moderators and my
> > =


> > space to configure IRC<->Matrix bridge (less then 4000 CPU cycles per
> > =


> > day last time i checked) to connect those two communities and users
> > =


> > who prefer either of those protocols to increase the reach of GNU Guix
> > =


> > to new users.
> =


> I appreciate this initiative, and from my preliminary investigations it
> =


> seems to me that Matrix would be a good protocol to support. I would be
> =


> glad if GNU Guix gained an official Matrix channel.
> =


> I have one concern: I'm concerned about control.
> =


> You propose that GNU Guix should adopt "this community, it's moderators
> =


> and my space". Who are these moderators? Who controls the "space"?
> =


> Who gets to decide who is given moderation privileges over the "space"?
> =


> If, in the future, you disagreed with the GNU Guix project leadership
> =


> over how the "space" was being managed, who would have the technical
> =


> and/or legal ability to override the others' wishes?
> =


> In short, would we need to trust you?
> =


> I hope that you will not read these concerns as suggesting that you have
> =


> ill intent. On the contrary, although I don't know you, I think it's
> =


> highly likely that your intent is benign, and I appreciate your efforts
> =


> to improve our communications infrastructure.
> =


> I would have these concerns regardless of who held the keys, even if it
> =


> were a long-time Guix project participant who I had come to deeply
> =


> respect and trust.
> =


> What do you think?
> =


> Regards,
> =


> Mark
> =


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------------------------
> =


> Disinformation flourishes because many people care deeply about injustic=
e
> =


> but very few check the facts. Ask me about https://stallmansupport.org.
-----------------------6ddb252c70882bbe2916c1ab1833dfe7
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Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>
To: Mark H Weaver <mhw@HIDDEN>, Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>,
 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
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Hi Jacob,

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 at 00:02, Mark H Weaver <mhw@HIDDEN> wrote:
> Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> There is an unofficial GNU Guix community on matrix (#guix:matrix.org)
>> with 375 members and an unofficial matrix space that i've created
>> (https://matrix.to/#/#gnu-guix:tchncs.de) which consist of
>> IRC<->Matrix bridged channels.
>>
>> Proposing for GNU Guix to adopt this community, it's moderators and my
>> space to configure IRC<->Matrix bridge (less then 4000 CPU cycles per
>> day last time i checked) to connect those two communities and users
>> who prefer either of those protocols to increase the reach of GNU Guix
>> to new users.

[...]

> You propose that GNU Guix should adopt "this community, it's moderators
> and my space".  Who are these moderators?  Who controls the "space"?
> Who gets to decide who is given moderation privileges over the "space"?

In addition to these concerns about moderating the =E2=80=9Cchannel=E2=80=
=9D of
communication, from a practical point of view, there is another concern
about the server or bridge.  Who manages it?  For instance, the
maintenance cost of the IRC infrastructure is delegated to =E2=80=9Ctrusted=
=E2=80=9D
people behind https://libera.chat/.  What about the example you provided
https://matrix.to/#/#gnu-guix:tchncs.de?

In other words, the concern is two levels.  As example, the current IRC
channel #guix on https://libera.chat is =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D because:

 1. the channel itself is moderated by trusted Guixers (even
    maintainers, I guess);

2. the infrastructure which runs IRC is moderated by =E2=80=9Ctrusted=E2=80=
=9D people;
   for instance, the recent switch from Freenode to Libera points the
   cost.

Mark is asking about #1.  Then what about this #2?  Although, the Matrix
protocol allows federation, at one moment, server or bridge need to
effectively run.


Last, I do not have an opinion about communication technology.  And I
receive all the initiatives for attracting people as a gift.  However,
being =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D implies costs and these costs should be ca=
refully
discussed before jumping, IMHO.

Cheers,
simon




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Mark H Weaver <mhw@HIDDEN>
To: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>, 51696 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#51696: Request: Adopt the unofficial GUIX community on Matrix
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Hi Jacob,

Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN> writes:

> There is an unofficial GNU Guix community on matrix (#guix:matrix.org)
> with 375 members and an unofficial matrix space that i've created
> (https://matrix.to/#/#gnu-guix:tchncs.de) which consist of
> IRC<->Matrix bridged channels.
>
> Proposing for GNU Guix to adopt this community, it's moderators and my
> space to configure IRC<->Matrix bridge (less then 4000 CPU cycles per
> day last time i checked) to connect those two communities and users
> who prefer either of those protocols to increase the reach of GNU Guix
> to new users.

I appreciate this initiative, and from my preliminary investigations it
seems to me that Matrix would be a good protocol to support.  I would be
glad if GNU Guix gained an official Matrix channel.

I have one concern: I'm concerned about control.

You propose that GNU Guix should adopt "this community, it's moderators
and my space".  Who are these moderators?  Who controls the "space"?
Who gets to decide who is given moderation privileges over the "space"?

If, in the future, you disagreed with the GNU Guix project leadership
over how the "space" was being managed, who would have the technical
and/or legal ability to override the others' wishes?

In short, would we need to trust you?

I hope that you will not read these concerns as suggesting that you have
ill intent.  On the contrary, although I don't know you, I think it's
highly likely that your intent is benign, and I appreciate your efforts
to improve our communications infrastructure.

I would have these concerns regardless of who held the keys, even if it
were a long-time Guix project participant who I had come to deeply
respect and trust.

What do you think?

      Regards,
        Mark

-- 
Disinformation flourishes because many people care deeply about injustice
but very few check the facts.  Ask me about <https://stallmansupport.org>.




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Reply-To: Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>
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There is an unofficial GNU Guix community on matrix (#guix:matrix.org) wit=
h 375 members and an unofficial matrix space that i've created (https://ma=
trix.to/#/#gnu-guix:tchncs.de) which consist of IRC<->Matrix bridged chann=
els.

Proposing for GNU Guix to adopt this community, it's moderators and my spa=
ce to configure IRC<->Matrix bridge (less then 4000 CPU cycles per day las=
t time i checked) to connect those two communities and users who prefer ei=
ther of those protocols to increase the reach of GNU Guix to new users.

-- Jacob "Kreyren" Hrbek

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Acknowledgement sent to Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-guix@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#51696; Package guix. Full text available.
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