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Subject: bug#52115: Suggestion: LN command should swap TARGET and LINK_NAME if LINK_NAME already exists
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From: Warren Parad <wparad@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 18:53:49 +0100
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--00000000000046d27a05d1a0aa46
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It is too frequent a problem to know which is the correct order of TARGET
and LINK_NAME.

Since the command already believes that it can't create a link to a file
which already exists (and for hard links that the TARGET must also exist),
instead of complaining, the command should just switch the order of the
parameters.

--00000000000046d27a05d1a0aa46
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<div dir=3D"ltr">It is too frequent a problem to know which is the correct =
order of TARGET and LINK_NAME.<div><br></div><div>Since the command already=
 believes that it can&#39;t create a link to a file which already exists (a=
nd for hard links that the TARGET must also exist), instead of complaining,=
 the command should just switch the order of the parameters.</div></div>

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X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Warren Parad <wparad@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#52115: Acknowledgement (Suggestion: LN command should swap
 TARGET and LINK_NAME if LINK_NAME already exists)
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On 11/25/21 18:53, Warren Parad wrote:
> It is too frequent a problem to know which is the correct order of TARGET
> and LINK_NAME.

I disagree: it is a one-time effort to learn the order ... similar as
for mv(1) and cp(1).

> Since the command already believes that it can't create a link to a file
> which already exists (and for hard links that the TARGET must also exist),
> instead of complaining, the command should just switch the order of the
> parameters.

The synopsis is already complex and confusing enough:

  Usage: ln [OPTION]... [-T] TARGET LINK_NAME
    or:  ln [OPTION]... TARGET
    or:  ln [OPTION]... TARGET... DIRECTORY
    or:  ln [OPTION]... -t DIRECTORY TARGET...

and especially surprising if LINK_NAME is a directory name which the caller
wasn't aware of.  Letting ln(1) automagically swap the parameters if LINK_NAME
exists simply adds more confusion and opens maybe a big race window:
what happens if another (malicious?) user B creates LINK_TARGET while user A
is typing the command?

Personally, I recommend the following option combination which results in
less surprises (see other cases below):

  $ ln -nsvf somename othername

Especially when creating symlinks, I prefer to get an error early rather than
ending up with a symlink with a name or location I never would have expected.

Have a nice day,
Berny




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except mv(1) and cp(1) are both "FROM" and then "TO", but ln is backwards
from thi, it is "TO" then "FROM", the least the command could do is put
these in the correct order.

>  it is a one-time effort to learn the order
Opinion, do you want proof that people can't learn this, because they
haven't.

> The synopsis is already complex and confusing enough:
Opinion, it is as complex as it allows, sounds like you are saying "LN
Sucks, we really need 4 commands which are all simpler", sure okay we can
have another command, but doing the right thing ALWAYS takes precedence
over "I have an opinion"

> what happens if another (malicious?) user B creates LINK_TARGET while
user A is typing the command?
While typing before entering? Then it doesn't matter if they are reversed
since the command would still fail because both exist, that should result
in the only real failure. I'm not suggesting removing the error in all
cases.

>   $ ln -nsvf somename othername
WTF, yeah let's tell everyone that gets this wrong to delete the file they
want to link, that's a genius idea.

On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 12:02 AM Bernhard Voelker <mail@HIDDEN>
wrote:

> On 11/25/21 18:53, Warren Parad wrote:
> > It is too frequent a problem to know which is the correct order of TARGET
> > and LINK_NAME.
>
> I disagree: it is a one-time effort to learn the order ... similar as
> for mv(1) and cp(1).
>
> > Since the command already believes that it can't create a link to a file
> > which already exists (and for hard links that the TARGET must also
> exist),
> > instead of complaining, the command should just switch the order of the
> > parameters.
>
> The synopsis is already complex and confusing enough:
>
>   Usage: ln [OPTION]... [-T] TARGET LINK_NAME
>     or:  ln [OPTION]... TARGET
>     or:  ln [OPTION]... TARGET... DIRECTORY
>     or:  ln [OPTION]... -t DIRECTORY TARGET...
>
> and especially surprising if LINK_NAME is a directory name which the caller
> wasn't aware of.  Letting ln(1) automagically swap the parameters if
> LINK_NAME
> exists simply adds more confusion and opens maybe a big race window:
> what happens if another (malicious?) user B creates LINK_TARGET while user
> A
> is typing the command?
>
> Personally, I recommend the following option combination which results in
> less surprises (see other cases below):
>
>   $ ln -nsvf somename othername
>
> Especially when creating symlinks, I prefer to get an error early rather
> than
> ending up with a symlink with a name or location I never would have
> expected.
>
> Have a nice day,
> Berny
>

--0000000000002a0f9605d1a51713
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">except mv(1) and cp(1) are both &quot;FROM&quot; and then =
&quot;TO&quot;, but ln is backwards from thi, it is &quot;TO&quot; then &qu=
ot;FROM&quot;, the least the command could do is put these in the correct o=
rder.<div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0 it is a one-time effort to learn the or=
der<br></div><div>Opinion, do you want proof that people can&#39;t learn th=
is, because they haven&#39;t.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; The synopsis is=
 already complex and confusing enough:</div>Opinion, it is as complex as it=
 allows, sounds like you are saying &quot;LN Sucks, we really need 4 comman=
ds which are all simpler&quot;, sure okay we can have another command, but =
doing the right thing ALWAYS takes precedence over &quot;I have an opinion&=
quot;<div><br></div><div>&gt; what happens if another (malicious?) user B c=
reates LINK_TARGET while user A is typing the command?</div><div>While typi=
ng before entering? Then it doesn&#39;t matter if they are reversed since t=
he command would still fail because both exist, that should result in the o=
nly real failure. I&#39;m not suggesting removing the error in all cases.</=
div><div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0$ ln -nsvf somename othername</div=
>WTF, yeah let&#39;s tell everyone that gets this wrong to delete the file =
they want to link, that&#39;s a genius idea.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 12:02 A=
M Bernhard Voelker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mail@HIDDEN">mail@ber=
nhard-voelker.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">On 11/25/21 18:53, Warren Parad wrote:<br>
&gt; It is too frequent a problem to know which is the correct order of TAR=
GET<br>
&gt; and LINK_NAME.<br>
<br>
I disagree: it is a one-time effort to learn the order ... similar as<br>
for mv(1) and cp(1).<br>
<br>
&gt; Since the command already believes that it can&#39;t create a link to =
a file<br>
&gt; which already exists (and for hard links that the TARGET must also exi=
st),<br>
&gt; instead of complaining, the command should just switch the order of th=
e<br>
&gt; parameters.<br>
<br>
The synopsis is already complex and confusing enough:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 Usage: ln [OPTION]... [-T] TARGET LINK_NAME<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 or:=C2=A0 ln [OPTION]... TARGET<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 or:=C2=A0 ln [OPTION]... TARGET... DIRECTORY<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 or:=C2=A0 ln [OPTION]... -t DIRECTORY TARGET...<br>
<br>
and especially surprising if LINK_NAME is a directory name which the caller=
<br>
wasn&#39;t aware of.=C2=A0 Letting ln(1) automagically swap the parameters =
if LINK_NAME<br>
exists simply adds more confusion and opens maybe a big race window:<br>
what happens if another (malicious?) user B creates LINK_TARGET while user =
A<br>
is typing the command?<br>
<br>
Personally, I recommend the following option combination which results in<b=
r>
less surprises (see other cases below):<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 $ ln -nsvf somename othername<br>
<br>
Especially when creating symlinks, I prefer to get an error early rather th=
an<br>
ending up with a symlink with a name or location I never would have expecte=
d.<br>
<br>
Have a nice day,<br>
Berny<br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000002a0f9605d1a51713--




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On 11/26/21 00:10, Warren Parad wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 12:02 AM Bernhard Voelker <mail@HIDDEN <mailto:mail@HIDDEN>> wrote:
>> The synopsis is already complex and confusing enough:
>
> Opinion, it is as complex as it allows, sounds like you are saying "LN Sucks, we really need 4 commands
> which are all simpler", sure okay we can have another command, but doing the right thing ALWAYS takes
> precedence over "I have an opinion".

That is my opinion, correct.
Yet there's also standardization (POSIX) and 40+ years of known behavior.  Adding functionality has to be
well-thought and must not contradict any existing usage, nor open doors for more surprises to users.
Finally, there's compatibility to other implementations to consider.

>> what happens if another (malicious?) user B creates LINK_TARGET while user A is typing the command?
>
> While typing before entering? Then it doesn't matter if they are reversed since the command would still fail because
> both exist, that should result in the only real failure. I'm not suggesting removing the error in all cases.

That's the point: the outcome would greatly depend on whether LINK_TARGET is created as regular file
or as a directory.  And no, one cannot predict when another process is modifying the file system.
IMO this is more surprising and therefore inconvenient than to get an error message if the
user missed to put TARGET and LINK_NAME in the correct order.

Have a nice day,
Berny




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On Friday, November 26, 2021 12:10:36 AM CET Warren Parad wrote:
> except mv(1) and cp(1) are both "FROM" and then "TO", but ln is backwards
> from thi, it is "TO" then "FROM", the least the command could do is put
> these in the correct order.
> 
> >  it is a one-time effort to learn the order
> 
> Opinion, do you want proof that people can't learn this, because they
> haven't.
> 
> > The synopsis is already complex and confusing enough:
> Opinion, it is as complex as it allows, sounds like you are saying "LN
> Sucks, we really need 4 commands which are all simpler", sure okay we can
> have another command, but doing the right thing ALWAYS takes precedence
> over "I have an opinion"
> 
> > what happens if another (malicious?) user B creates LINK_TARGET while
> 
> user A is typing the command?
> While typing before entering? Then it doesn't matter if they are reversed
> since the command would still fail because both exist, that should result
> in the only real failure. I'm not suggesting removing the error in all
> cases.
> 
> >   $ ln -nsvf somename othername
> 
> WTF, yeah let's tell everyone that gets this wrong to delete the file they
> want to link, that's a genius idea.

Seriously, such experiments do not belong to the system implementation of 
ln(1).  If you really need this behavior, you can implement it as a shell 
function.  Sooner or later you will regret that you did it.

Kamil






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From: Kamil Dudka <kdudka@HIDDEN>
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On Friday, November 26, 2021 12:10:36 AM CET Warren Parad wrote:
> except mv(1) and cp(1) are both "FROM" and then "TO", but ln is backwards
> from thi, it is "TO" then "FROM", the least the command could do is put
> these in the correct order.
> 
> >  it is a one-time effort to learn the order
> 
> Opinion, do you want proof that people can't learn this, because they
> haven't.
> 
> > The synopsis is already complex and confusing enough:
> Opinion, it is as complex as it allows, sounds like you are saying "LN
> Sucks, we really need 4 commands which are all simpler", sure okay we can
> have another command, but doing the right thing ALWAYS takes precedence
> over "I have an opinion"
> 
> > what happens if another (malicious?) user B creates LINK_TARGET while
> 
> user A is typing the command?
> While typing before entering? Then it doesn't matter if they are reversed
> since the command would still fail because both exist, that should result
> in the only real failure. I'm not suggesting removing the error in all
> cases.
> 
> >   $ ln -nsvf somename othername
> 
> WTF, yeah let's tell everyone that gets this wrong to delete the file they
> want to link, that's a genius idea.

Seriously, such experiments do not belong to the system implementation of 
ln(1).  If you really need this behavior, you can implement it as a shell 
function.  Sooner or later you will regret that you did it.

Kamil






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Subject: bug#52115: Suggestion: LN command should swap TARGET and LINK_NAME if LINK_NAME already exists
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On 11/25/21 15:10, Warren Parad wrote:
> except mv(1) and cp(1) are both "FROM" and then "TO", but ln is backwards
> from thi, it is "TO" then "FROM"

No, ln is exactly like mv and cp here: the source is the first argument, 
and the destination is the second.

If this isn't clear, perhaps we should make the documentation clearer; 
but we shouldn't change ln's behavior, as many people and programs rely 
on the current behavior, and the current behavior is more logical once 
you understand how file systems work.




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From: Bob Proulx <bob@HIDDEN>
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Warren Parad wrote:
> except mv(1) and cp(1) are both "FROM" and then "TO", but ln is backwards
> from thi, it is "TO" then "FROM", the least the command could do is put
> these in the correct order.

But that is not correct.  The order for ln is the same as for cp and
mv in that the target getting created is the right side argument.

(Unless the -t or -T option is used to do it differently by explicit
syntax request.  Unless no target is specified in which case dot is
assumed.  I admit those two "unless" cases complicate the original
simplicity.  But the normal case is to create the right side argument
as the target of the command.)

> >  it is a one-time effort to learn the order
> Opinion, do you want proof that people can't learn this, because they
> haven't.

The target getting created is the right side argument.  If that is not
clear from the documentation then improving the documentation is
always good.

Let me say with some confidence that if the order were changed to
create the left argument that people would be very upset that cp and
mv created the right side argument but ln created a left side
argument!

Bob




Message sent to bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:


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On 29/11/2021 01:07 am, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Warren Parad wrote:
>> except mv(1) and cp(1) are both "FROM" and then "TO", but ln is backwards
>> from thi, it is "TO" then "FROM", the least the command could do is put
>> these in the correct order.
> 
> But that is not correct.  The order for ln is the same as for cp and
> mv in that the target getting created is the right side argument.
> 
> (Unless the -t or -T option is used to do it differently by explicit
> syntax request.  Unless no target is specified in which case dot is
> assumed.  I admit those two "unless" cases complicate the original
> simplicity.  But the normal case is to create the right side argument
> as the target of the command.)
> 
>>>   it is a one-time effort to learn the order
>> Opinion, do you want proof that people can't learn this, because they
>> haven't.
> 
> The target getting created is the right side argument.  If that is not
> clear from the documentation then improving the documentation is
> always good.
> 
> Let me say with some confidence that if the order were changed to
> create the left argument that people would be very upset that cp and
> mv created the right side argument but ln created a left side
> argument!
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 

Windows mklink command already does this - yes, it's annoying.

-- 

Chris Elvidge







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Am 27.11.21 um 09:41 schrieb Paul Eggert:
> On 11/25/21 15:10, Warren Parad wrote:
>> except mv(1) and cp(1) are both "FROM" and then "TO", but ln is backwar=
ds
>> from thi, it is "TO" then "FROM"
>
> No, ln is exactly like mv and cp here: the source is the first argument,=
 and the destination is the second.
The problem is the possible confusion between "target" as result of the co=
mmand and as link target.

> If this isn't clear, perhaps we should make the documentation clearer; b=
ut we shouldn't change ln's behavior, as many people and programs rely on =
the current behavior, and the current behavior is more logical once you un=
derstand how file systems work.
Agreed.
I would like to change the order of the forms from:
Usage: ln [OPTION]... [-T] TARGET LINK_NAME
 =C2=A0 or:=C2=A0 ln [OPTION]... TARGET
 =C2=A0 or:=C2=A0 ln [OPTION]... TARGET... DIRECTORY
 =C2=A0 or:=C2=A0 ln [OPTION]... -t DIRECTORY TARGET...
In the 1st form, create a link to TARGET with the name LINK_NAME.
In the 2nd form, create a link to TARGET in the current directory.
In the 3rd and 4th forms, create links to each TARGET in DIRECTORY.
Create hard links by default, symbolic links with --symbolic.
By default, each destination (name of new link) should not already exist.
When creating hard links, each TARGET must exist.=C2=A0 Symbolic links
can hold arbitrary text; if later resolved, a relative link is
interpreted in relation to its parent directory.
to:
Usage: ln [OPTION]... TARGET
 =C2=A0 or:=C2=A0 ln [OPTION]... [-T] TARGET LINK_NAME
 =C2=A0 or:=C2=A0 ln [OPTION]... TARGET... DIRECTORY
 =C2=A0 or:=C2=A0 ln [OPTION]... -t DIRECTORY TARGET...
1st form: Create a link to TARGET with same name in the current directory.
2nd form: Create a link to TARGET with the name LINK_NAME.
3rd and 4th forms: Create links to each TARGET in DIRECTORY.
Create hard links by default, symbolic links with --symbolic.
By default, each destination (name of new link) should not already exist.
When creating hard links, each TARGET must exist.=C2=A0 Symbolic links
can hold arbitrary text; if later resolved, a relative link is
interpreted in relation to its parent directory.

I think, for beginners it would be less confusing, if the most simple form=
 would be the first.

Additionally we could add "with the same name" in the than 1st form.

Additionally we could shorten "In the 1st form," to "1st form:".

Also for me the existence of the 3rd for is the most confusing, as it enfo=
rces the perplexing -T option.

-Ulf





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On 11/29/21 02:34, Ulf Zibis wrote:
> I think, for beginners it would be less confusing, if the most simple 
> form would be the first.

Unfortunately the simple form "ln TARGET" is quite rarely used, so 
putting it first is likely to confuse beginners even more than what we 
have already. Come to think of it, perhaps we should put the simple form 
last instead of 2nd.




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On 29/11/2021 07:07 pm, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 11/29/21 02:34, Ulf Zibis wrote:
>> I think, for beginners it would be less confusing, if the most simple 
>> form would be the first.
> 
> Unfortunately the simple form "ln TARGET" is quite rarely used, so 
> putting it first is likely to confuse beginners even more than what we 
> have already. Come to think of it, perhaps we should put the simple form 
> last instead of 2nd.
> 

I use 'ln -s "source"' quite a lot for linking into e.g. /usr/local/bin 
from my own $HOME/bin.

The real problem could be with the terminology.
'ln [options] TARGET [LINK_NAME]'; the TARGET is really the source, 
which obviously must exist. A TARGET is really something you aim at.

Perhaps it should be changed to 'ln [options] source [link]'


-- 

Chris Elvidge







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