GNU bug report logs - #52290
28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables

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Package: emacs; Reported by: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>; dated Sun, 5 Dec 2021 01:27:01 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

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From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables
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Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:25:12 +0100
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Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:

> I think Stefan had a list of the worst ones...  `point-max', for
> instance, is pretty egregious.  Well, looking at that list -- most of
> are just the worst.  =F0=9F=A4=90

Ok, `point-max' is not so useful.

I only wanted to note that some generalized vars might be more useful
with `cl-letf' than with plain setf, you get some extra kinds of
excursions gratis (sometimes doesn't work as expected though).  Example:

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(cl-letf (((cons (point-min) (point-max))
           (cons (line-beginning-position) (line-end-position))))
        (recursive-edit))
#+end_src

Michael.




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bug#52290; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 15:09:09 +1300
From: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables
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On 2021-12-05 14:35, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> I don't think many of those are new -- they were just moved from
> cl-lib.el to gv.el, because it seemed weird to have them in cl-lib.el.

Aha. I'd seen that the cl docs had a bunch of extensions, but didn't
think to re-check those docs in 28.0.90.


> But we don't really have a deprecation mechanisme for generalised
> variables, so it's just hard.

I guess we'd want a new define-obsolete-* function, and for the setf
macro to be flagging uses of obsolete PLACE forms at compile time?

It looks to me as if `gv-get' might be the right place to be checking
this (but I'm only looking at the internals for the first time and
don't have a good handle on this stuff).


> The manual should absolutely not list most of these, because we don't
> want anybody to use them, and we want to remove many (most?) of the
> undocumented ones.
> 
> We just have to figure out how to do that in an orderly fashion.

Fair enough.  Should we start by deciding which ones we *should*
document, and at least get that much added for 28.1?

`buffer-local-value' is a clear "yes" vote from me (and I don't
currently have an opinion on anything else).


-Phil





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From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables
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 Content preview:  Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: >> And
    we probably want to deprecate a whole bunch of them, because many of >> them
    are just nonsensical. > > Which are nonsensical? I think Stefan had a list
    of the worst ones... `point-max', for instance, is pretty egregious. Well,
    looking at that list -- most of are just the worst. 🤐 
 
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Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes:

>> And we probably want to deprecate a whole bunch of them, because many of
>> them are just nonsensical.
>
> Which are nonsensical?

I think Stefan had a list of the worst ones...  `point-max', for
instance, is pretty egregious.  Well, looking at that list -- most of
are just the worst.  =F0=9F=A4=90

--=20
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no




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From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables
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Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:55:57 +0100
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Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:

> And we probably want to deprecate a whole bunch of them, because many of
> them are just nonsensical.

Which are nonsensical?

Michael.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#52290; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 52290 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables
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Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> writes:

> In 28.0.90 the list is huge:

I don't think many of those are new -- they were just moved from
cl-lib.el to gv.el, because it seemed weird to have them in cl-lib.el.

And we probably want to deprecate a whole bunch of them, because many of
them are just nonsensical.

But we don't really have a deprecation mechanisme for generalised
variables, so it's just hard.

> I think the manual should list these, but also at this point I think
> the help for any generalized variable should *automatically* state
> that fact, so that any future omissions are still covered to some
> extent, and also so that non-standard generalized vars defined by
> other libraries will have some documentation.

The manual should absolutely not list most of these, because we don't
want anybody to use them, and we want to remove many (most?) of the
undocumented ones.

We just have to figure out how to do that in an orderly fashion.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#52290; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 14:25:54 +1300
From: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables
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Many standard generalized variables are not listed in the manual at
(info "(elisp)Setting Generalized Variables") or otherwise documented
as generalized vars so far as I can see.

The omission of `buffer-local-value' was what led me to check these,
as it's utilised by the likes of `electric-indent-local-mode' for
the :variable declaration, which I found confusing until I'd looked
at the code in detail, seen that `setf' was being used on that form,
and found that gv.el did indeed define this as a generalized var
even though the docs didn't mention it.

Comparing the manual node with the contents of gv.el...


In 27.2 there are fairly few omissions from the manual:

- buffer-local-value
- char-table-range
- cond
- cons
- edebug-after
- if
- let
- let*
- logand
- progn


In 28.0.90 the list is huge:

- buffer-file-name
- buffer-local-value
- buffer-modified-p
- buffer-name
- buffer-string
- buffer-substring
- char-table-range
- cond
- cons
- current-buffer
- current-column
- current-global-map
- current-input-mode
- current-local-map
- current-window-configuration
- default-file-modes
- documentation-property
- edebug-after
- eq
- error
- face-background
- face-background-pixmap
- face-font
- face-foreground
- face-underline-p
- file-modes
- frame-height
- frame-parameters
- frame-visible-p
- frame-width
- get-register
- getenv
- global-key-binding
- gv-deref
- if
- let
- let*
- local-key-binding
- logand
- mark
- mark-marker
- marker-position
- mouse-position
- plist-get
- point
- point-marker
- point-max
- point-min
- progn
- read-mouse-position
- screen-height
- screen-width
- selected-frame
- selected-screen
- selected-window
- standard-case-table
- substring
- syntax-table
- visited-file-modtime
- window-height
- window-width
- x-get-secondary-selection

This list of omissions is close to twice the length of the *documented*
cases.

I think the manual should list these, but also at this point I think the
help for any generalized variable should *automatically* state that 
fact,
so that any future omissions are still covered to some extent, and also
so that non-standard generalized vars defined by other libraries will
have some documentation.


-Phil





In GNU Emacs 28.0.90 (build 3, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, cairo 
version 1.15.10, Xaw scroll bars)
  of 2021-12-03 built on phil-lp
Repository revision: 292ae07e7150a9515b587bd98f9e93ab42c3fb29
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 
11.0.12008000
System Description: Ubuntu 18.04.6 LTS

Configured using:
  'configure --prefix=/home/phil/emacs/28.0/usr/local
  --with-x-toolkit=lucid --without-sound --with-native-compilation'

Configured features:
CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON
LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG
SECCOMP THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS X11 XDBE XIM XPM LUCID ZLIB

Important settings:
   value of $LC_MONETARY: en_NZ.UTF-8
   value of $LC_NUMERIC: en_NZ.UTF-8
   value of $LC_TIME: en_NZ.UTF-8
   value of $LANG: en_NZ.UTF-8
   value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
   locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Lisp Interaction

Minor modes in effect:
   tooltip-mode: t
   global-eldoc-mode: t
   eldoc-mode: t
   show-paren-mode: t
   electric-indent-mode: t
   mouse-wheel-mode: t
   tool-bar-mode: t
   menu-bar-mode: t
   file-name-shadow-mode: t
   global-font-lock-mode: t
   font-lock-mode: t
   blink-cursor-mode: t
   auto-composition-mode: t
   auto-encryption-mode: t
   auto-compression-mode: t
   line-number-mode: t
   indent-tabs-mode: t
   transient-mark-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow mail-extr emacsbug message rmc puny dired dired-loaddefs rfc822
mml mml-sec epa derived epg rfc6068 epg-config gnus-util rmail
rmail-loaddefs auth-source eieio eieio-core eieio-loaddefs
password-cache json map text-property-search time-date mm-decode
mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader
sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils sort
comp comp-cstr warnings subr-x rx cl-seq cl-macs cl-extra help-mode seq
byte-opt gv cl-loaddefs cl-lib bytecomp byte-compile cconv rect
mule-util jka-compr info iso-transl tooltip eldoc paren electric
uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel
term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image
regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode lisp-mode
prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu
timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax font-core
term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang
misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms
cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian
cyrillic chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript charprop case-table
epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray cl-preloaded nadvice
button loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties
overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget
hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind inotify lcms2
dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting cairo x-toolkit
x multi-tty make-network-process native-compile emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 105925 9366)
  (symbols 48 8419 1)
  (strings 32 29142 2540)
  (string-bytes 1 935587)
  (vectors 16 18250)
  (vector-slots 8 355739 12899)
  (floats 8 34 34)
  (intervals 56 826 11)
  (buffers 992 13))





Acknowledgement sent to Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#52290; Package emacs. Full text available.
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