Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Received: (at 53025) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jan 2022 20:47:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jan 05 15:47:07 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38976 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1n5DBb-0004jn-0D for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 15:47:07 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:42028) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eggert@HIDDEN>) id 1n5DBY-0004jF-Rg for 53025 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 15:47:05 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA141600DB; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 12:46:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id USvqO-fVhmXm; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 12:46:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C235160144; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 12:46:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id cqQqE_8WFFVT; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 12:46:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-172-91-119-151.socal.res.rr.com [172.91.119.151]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 678421600DB; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 12:46:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1f8ccb3b-3236-d772-aee6-03471e771ffc@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 12:46:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1 Subject: Re: bug#53025: Encouragement to go back to *dis*abled quotation marks in ls output as *default* behavior Content-Language: en-US To: "Joerg M. Sigle" <joerg.sigle@HIDDEN> References: <3c7bac43-561f-d4d5-1c3a-d98bcb89724a@HIDDEN> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN> Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: <3c7bac43-561f-d4d5-1c3a-d98bcb89724a@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.4 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 53025 Cc: 53025 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) On 1/5/22 00:44, Joerg M. Sigle wrote: > "When this many people consider a thing a bug, then it's a bug whether maintainers disagree or not." By that standard it'll be a bug no matter what the maintainers do, since feelings are strong on both sides of the issue. So by this reasoning, maintainers might as well do nothing. In the meantime you can avoid the issue yourself by using this: alias ls="ls -N" in your .profile or whatever.
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#53025; Package coreutils.
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[86.40.129.104]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id j3sm41679058wro.22.2022.01.05.08.48.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Jan 2022 08:48:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <91625cd6-21ff-fe98-de21-45e111eb1a98@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 16:48:42 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:95.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/95.0 Subject: Re: bug#53025: Encouragement to go back to *dis*abled quotation marks in ls output as *default* behavior Content-Language: en-US To: "Joerg M. Sigle" <joerg.sigle@HIDDEN>, 53025 <at> debbugs.gnu.org References: <3c7bac43-561f-d4d5-1c3a-d98bcb89724a@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=c3=a1draig_Brady?= <P@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <3c7bac43-561f-d4d5-1c3a-d98bcb89724a@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 53025 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) On 05/01/2022 08:44, Joerg M. Sigle wrote: > Dear coreutils developers > > Thank you very much for your efferts in trying to provide and maintain > fine tools that help millions or billions of users every day. > I'm one who appreciates that (and I try to do something similar as well). > > Still, sometimes there have been changes introduced over the years, > that may have been well intended, but still do more harm than good, > even if not visible to everyone at first glance. > > Introduction of quotation marks placed selectively around ls output > containing spaces is an example for that. > > I'd like to encourage you to make this behaviour an option again, > and put the default setting back to leaving these quotation marks away. > Whoever wants them, can activate them - and who doesn't, won't be > bothered by an inconsistent and somewhat annoying behavior that disrupts > the visual processing of every single ls output where it becomes apparent - > and requires the addition of an option line for every single existing(!) > .bashrc file on systems where the "new" behaviour is not desired. > > And, given the change was introduced in 2016, and re-introduced in 2019, > and annoyance is still caused in 2021 - well, whenever it has been fixed > in existing systems, the problem still turns up in each and every newly > set up system since then, in a delayed manner because naturally ls output > with spaces is not the first thing that will appear, and therefore requires > a lookup of its cause and remedy, and then the manual addition of fixes to > each already existing user account set up until then. upstream has been consistent in maintaining the behavior since it was introduced. > > As somebody put it on publicly available pages: > > "When this many people consider a thing a bug, then it's a bug whether maintainers disagree or not." > Quoted from: > > https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/258679/why-is-ls-suddenly-wrapping-items-with-spaces-in-single-quotes/262162#262162 > > > The bigger problem is, that it's not only ls which is affected like that. > Similar changes, instead, occur in more and more places - in browsers, in > the X11 environment (now even losing it's network transparency etc.), in the > design of GUIs with inconsistant apprance and unrecognizable operating elements > and so on. It's like if somebody has a bad idea, they're not held back by > traditions or established standards or knowledgeable people around them any more - > but on the contrary, that bad idea is immediately implemented, distributed, and > then: even copied over and over by other people who think things must constantly > be "renewed" even if the existing version was perfect and simple, and "new" usually > means "more complex" and "obviously worse". > > Anyway. Thank you very much for consideration of this message, > including its philosophical background, and kind regards! Reasoning for the default behavior is detailed at: https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/quotes.html thanks, Pádraig.
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#53025; Package coreutils.
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Sigle" <joerg.sigle@HIDDEN> Subject: Encouragement to go back to *dis*abled quotation marks in ls output as *default* behavior Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=joerg.sigle@HIDDEN; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsDiBEQYHMMRBADRvakjCgWbUtuZFxoKohCVAFgjhJ5RtxG3x7NfZj4k/Bm18GXLea1qIwKf aO55x4KCj+/ecbdAaFHFirPAZi45DzvFshgEBKY0w89A4qo7UvX3mqfg/G9RZFT55YDqPMJh VO3X0r+Qz6ID7BgOVZnmbpnyMiAPx5OpRly+aA4ZQQCg/6ll3zyL6q6AAHhjT0OSgdKXcfkD /3ZQUfDD4+ZbV6IG4fdeXzc8qHyLrqWEf+aQWQjtjxe3+vQIL6VDaACz3eeERETMrnyVLG+p wrIiccShYYkLUt+PeMNiEFMZNi8FzsLv8GiEvxPVaRuHgteX5LgdHsDceqou3UJb4hPQtO1n 8YatK5MfMB3vXFox74rpj0Hh9+yyBACzc6O8F7SYNVvy3oDU9AJR1kkHiXf9Y8Z0SOB13zDW GDPKAewIxGXk6PKaArRugPzd7caUBd8Cha/COUwoWfxdCe1RGZTdSVCoe1TvqqdGtwrw+fis 6XddsfTfLsuPXR3yW1ESPB00utIE/rVG6XbFQ0s5kZQep4ZfftyHBFKUVs0oSm9lcmctTWlj aGFlbCBTaWdsZSA8am9lcmcuc2lnbGVAd2ViLmRlPsJLBBARAgALBQJEGBziBAsDAQIACgkQ CJ3K818VBio/PwCg1wv3nkMEOCc8Oh+UPDCAID2ZmZcAn1vcO7SDQrp2FGmPqr+g6NH7Qr8N zsNNBEQYHMQQEAD5GKB+WgZhekOQldwFbIeG7GHszUUfDtjgo3nGydx6C6zkP+NGlLYwSlPX fAIWSIC1FeUpmamfB3TT/+OhxZYgTphluNgN7hBdq7YXHFHYUMoiV0MpvpXoVis4eFwL2/hM TdXjqkbM+84X6CqdFGHjhKlP0YOEqHm274+nQ0YIxswdd1ckOErixPDojhNnl06SE2H22+sl Dhf99pj3yHx5sHIdOHX79sFzxIMRJitDYMPj6NYK/aEoJguuqa6zZQ+iAFMBoHzWq6MSHvoP Ks4fdIRPyvMX86RA6dfSd7ZCLQI2wSbLaF6dfJgJCo1+Le3kXXn11JJPmxiO/CqnS3wy9kJX twh/CBdyorrWqULzBej5UxE5T7bxbrlLOCDaAadWoxTpj0BV89AHxstDqZSt90xkhkn4DIO9 ZekX1KHTUPj1WV/cdlJPPT2N286Z4VeSWc39uK50T8X8dryDxUcwYc58yWb/Ffm7/ZFexwGq 01uejaClcjrUGvC/RgBYK+X0iP1YTknbzSC0neSRBzZrM2w4DUUdD3yIsxx8Wy2O9vPJI8BD 8KVbGI2Ou1WMuF040zT9fBdXQ6MdGGzeMyEstSr/POGxKUAYEY18hKcKctaGxAMZyAcpesqV DNmWn6vQClCbAkbTCD1mpF1Bn5x8vYlLIhkmuquiXsNV6z3WFwACAg//XFEPM51xtB19Vzdp V65oFdf9LCNoR9+N2yPyEx/Y4+bmymhhJpJGWLeSiicBx2VONvKpDBlPd0jX3GImm2FjQzbg o38IaAqc1VzjAJ8p7AV0eOttmh5rNUqe8NKPmuXIzNIiHMBjZ6Vsg44aFnOkDVyMTxC08QxJ t6WAKCb3KersKv6AxcTvAuKKIggIzLhrcfbyD61NlxLJRSvNxwmVMhblb5ngZ2ri1SigOC2u eW527nX6m4vJFvqZ2kGg0KiM9Zam34m4/QCQcUCFAcaoWtQYT0lwwXGuCKhKUBSQO86shLqF yO4jYGYhLJskvVkHbiGtjqqEBjQIag67N9uk1EQFy32e0Vv7nfVmyzCUqHv9EixAN+DtBENz R70xrCFmwBiPNb1HixrGRa8VzeNI66pJPsyCb4+yc/Pc17J2e/Pltyfee/5scr+6Tln2VQb2 Ru89XVni2UI7xj6CR6wfP6hiBKF9DI4nIxEv8r3aLKBLCCKDvS+YAPRtBpSVnk0Cwiri1KHo l38mzjiLqW5LBZ4NkcV3PAMYsAmv/80zY+eGb8YRPnOv/rHCLSesw9Wo8MtH7MXc+PqrZnio 50U8+WpViaE1A5GDCP1KNPTs5ghAM2cHQCPyFxf0GLIeyCdQyAr5JbM4UyJblqNT4+bdgaxy foletFZEk/WkMXPpFX/CPwMFGEQYHMQIncrzXxUGKhECA0wAoPP81KOLYdkMjQYN7sbcyA3k 8PuOAKC9roFUBE+MA3ttuTAdqMIxhIo1cw== Message-ID: <3c7bac43-561f-d4d5-1c3a-d98bcb89724a@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 09:44:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: de-DE-1901 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Con-Id: 102464 X-Con-U: 0-joergsigle X-Originating-IP: 87.102.202.253 Received-SPF: none client-ip=178.254.4.101; envelope-from=joerg.sigle@HIDDEN; helo=ms-10.1blu.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 10:56:06 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Dear coreutils developers Thank you very much for your efferts in trying to provide and maintain fine tools that help millions or billions of users every day. I'm one who appreciates that (and I try to do something similar as well). Still, sometimes there have been changes introduced over the years, that may have been well intended, but still do more harm than good, even if not visible to everyone at first glance. Introduction of quotation marks placed selectively around ls output containing spaces is an example for that. I'd like to encourage you to make this behaviour an option again, and put the default setting back to leaving these quotation marks away. Whoever wants them, can activate them - and who doesn't, won't be bothered by an inconsistent and somewhat annoying behavior that disrupts the visual processing of every single ls output where it becomes apparent - and requires the addition of an option line for every single existing(!) .bashrc file on systems where the "new" behaviour is not desired. And, given the change was introduced in 2016, and re-introduced in 2019, and annoyance is still caused in 2021 - well, whenever it has been fixed in existing systems, the problem still turns up in each and every newly set up system since then, in a delayed manner because naturally ls output with spaces is not the first thing that will appear, and therefore requires a lookup of its cause and remedy, and then the manual addition of fixes to each already existing user account set up until then. As somebody put it on publicly available pages: "When this many people consider a thing a bug, then it's a bug whether maintainers disagree or not." Quoted from: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/258679/why-is-ls-suddenly-wrapping-items-with-spaces-in-single-quotes/262162#262162 The bigger problem is, that it's not only ls which is affected like that. Similar changes, instead, occur in more and more places - in browsers, in the X11 environment (now even losing it's network transparency etc.), in the design of GUIs with inconsistant apprance and unrecognizable operating elements and so on. It's like if somebody has a bad idea, they're not held back by traditions or established standards or knowledgeable people around them any more - but on the contrary, that bad idea is immediately implemented, distributed, and then: even copied over and over by other people who think things must constantly be "renewed" even if the existing version was perfect and simple, and "new" usually means "more complex" and "obviously worse". Anyway. Thank you very much for consideration of this message, including its philosophical background, and kind regards! Joerg -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. med. Jörg M. Sigle +41 76 276 86 94 http://www.ql-recorder.com +41 32 510 23 46 http://www.jsigle.com +49 176 96 43 54 13
"Joerg M. Sigle" <joerg.sigle@HIDDEN>:bug-coreutils@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#53025; Package coreutils.
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