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Subject: [bug#53447] [PATCH] doc: Unset environment variables considered harmful
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 Content preview: * doc/guix.texi (Application Setup): Add subsection for
 implicit
 environment variables. --- doc/guix.texi | 27 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 27 insertions(+) diff --git a/doc/guix.texi b/doc/guix.texi
 index 912a8e3c5a..805e3b611f 100644 --- a/doc/guix.texi +++ b/doc/guix.texi
 @@ -2023, 6 +2023,
 33 @@ want to avoid auto-loading the Emacs packages installed
 wi [...] 
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* doc/guix.texi (Application Setup): Add subsection for implicit environment
variables.
---
 doc/guix.texi | 27 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 27 insertions(+)

diff --git a/doc/guix.texi b/doc/guix.texi
index 912a8e3c5a..805e3b611f 100644
--- a/doc/guix.texi
+++ b/doc/guix.texi
@@ -2023,6 +2023,33 @@ want to avoid auto-loading the Emacs packages installed with Guix, you
 can do so by running Emacs with the @option{--no-site-file} option
 (@pxref{Init File,,, emacs, The GNU Emacs Manual}).
 
+@subsection Implicit Environment Variables
+
+Many environment variables are defined in a way that assumes a certain
+default value, even if unset.  For example, bash uses the current
+working directory as @env{PATH} if unset, or @env{XDG_CONFIG_HOME}
+expands to @file{$HOME/.config}.  Some of these defaults remain the same
+whether a package is used through Guix or not---however, environment
+variables referring to @file{/etc} or @file{/usr} typically have their
+meaning subtly changed in Guix.  An application installed via Guix might
+instead look up files in its own @file{etc} structure, or (if a
+search-path was specified) even override the default for packages from
+the foreign distro.
+
+In order to avoid problems coming from such implicitly defined
+environment variables, it is best to explicitly define them somewhere.
+Startup files like @file{~/.bash_profile} are usually a good location
+to do so.  However, not all setups treat them equally.  While on Guix
+System, the user's login shell is used to spawn a graphical session,
+other distros may choose a different approach.  For instance, systemd
+is capable of spawning graphical applications in a clean environment,
+but allows said environments to be modified through an
+@file{override.conf} placed in the right directory.
+
+Regardless of which method is used to set such environment variables,
+they typically should only be set once at login.  Placing them in files
+like @file{~/.bashrc} or similar has adverse effects on other commands
+that want to create clean environments, such as @command{guix shell}.
 
 @node Upgrading Guix
 @section Upgrading Guix
-- 
2.34.0

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To: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#53447: Acknowledgement ([PATCH] doc: Unset environment
 variables considered harmful)
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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 14:17:02 +0000

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Subject: [bug#53447] [PATCH] doc: Unset environment variables considered harmful
Resent-From: Ludovic =?UTF-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 17:04:25 +0100
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 (Liliana Marie Prikler's message of "Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:13:20 +0100")
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Hi Liliana,

Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> skribis:

> * doc/guix.texi (Application Setup): Add subsection for implicit environm=
ent
> variables.
> ---
>  doc/guix.texi | 27 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>  1 file changed, 27 insertions(+)
>
> diff --git a/doc/guix.texi b/doc/guix.texi
> index 912a8e3c5a..805e3b611f 100644
> --- a/doc/guix.texi
> +++ b/doc/guix.texi
> @@ -2023,6 +2023,33 @@ want to avoid auto-loading the Emacs packages inst=
alled with Guix, you
>  can do so by running Emacs with the @option{--no-site-file} option
>  (@pxref{Init File,,, emacs, The GNU Emacs Manual}).
>=20=20
> +@subsection Implicit Environment Variables
> +
> +Many environment variables are defined in a way that assumes a certain
> +default value, even if unset.  For example, bash uses the current
> +working directory as @env{PATH} if unset, or @env{XDG_CONFIG_HOME}
> +expands to @file{$HOME/.config}.  Some of these defaults remain the same
> +whether a package is used through Guix or not---however, environment
> +variables referring to @file{/etc} or @file{/usr} typically have their
> +meaning subtly changed in Guix.  An application installed via Guix might
> +instead look up files in its own @file{etc} structure, or (if a
> +search-path was specified) even override the default for packages from
> +the foreign distro.

I think I miss some context: what concrete problem is this trying to
solve?  What is it telling me to do?

I wonder to what extent this is actionable for a user, due to wording
that leaves it up to the reader to figure out how this applies to them:

  =E2=80=9CMany environment variables=E2=80=9D
  =E2=80=9Ca certain default value=E2=80=9D
  =E2=80=9CSome of these=E2=80=9D
  =E2=80=9CAn application installed via Guix might=E2=80=9D
  =E2=80=9Cproblems coming from such implicitly defined=E2=80=9D
  =E2=80=A6

I think the =E2=80=9CApplication Setup=E2=80=9D section should be as concre=
te as
possible, with clear instructions (=E2=80=9CIf X then type Y=E2=80=9D), pos=
sibly
followed by explanations that curious readers can read and that others
can skip.

WDYT?

Ludo=E2=80=99.

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Subject: [bug#53447] [PATCH] doc: Unset environment variables considered harmful
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Hi Ludo,

Am Samstag, dem 22.01.2022 um 17:04 +0100 schrieb Ludovic Courtès:
> Hi Liliana,
> 
> Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> skribis:
> 
> > * doc/guix.texi (Application Setup): Add subsection for implicit
> > environment variables.
> > ---
> >  doc/guix.texi | 27 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >  1 file changed, 27 insertions(+)
> > 
> > diff --git a/doc/guix.texi b/doc/guix.texi
> > index 912a8e3c5a..805e3b611f 100644
> > --- a/doc/guix.texi
> > +++ b/doc/guix.texi
> > @@ -2023,6 +2023,33 @@ want to avoid auto-loading the Emacs
> > packages installed with Guix, you
> >  can do so by running Emacs with the @option{--no-site-file} option
> >  (@pxref{Init File,,, emacs, The GNU Emacs Manual}).
> >  
> > +@subsection Implicit Environment Variables
> > +
> > +Many environment variables are defined in a way that assumes a
> > certain
> > +default value, even if unset.  For example, bash uses the current
> > +working directory as @env{PATH} if unset, or @env{XDG_CONFIG_HOME}
> > +expands to @file{$HOME/.config}.  Some of these defaults remain
> > the same
> > +whether a package is used through Guix or not---however,
> > environment
> > +variables referring to @file{/etc} or @file{/usr} typically have
> > their
> > +meaning subtly changed in Guix.  An application installed via Guix
> > might
> > +instead look up files in its own @file{etc} structure, or (if a
> > +search-path was specified) even override the default for packages
> > from
> > +the foreign distro.
> 
> I think I miss some context: what concrete problem is this trying to
> solve?  What is it telling me to do?
> 
> I wonder to what extent this is actionable for a user, due to wording
> that leaves it up to the reader to figure out how this applies to
> them:
> 
>   “Many environment variables”
>   “a certain default value”
>   “Some of these”
>   “An application installed via Guix might”
>   “problems coming from such implicitly defined”
>   …
> 
> I think the “Application Setup” section should be as concrete as
> possible, with clear instructions (“If X then type Y”), possibly
> followed by explanations that curious readers can read and that
> others can skip.
> 
> WDYT?
I think there are too many examples to exhaustively list them all, but
to give an example, [1, 2, 3, 4] are all the same bug and in [2] Carlo
said we should document this under "Application Setup".  My personal
stance is that the Guix behaviour is not a bug and other distros are
weird for not explicitly binding it.

I know my wording is not the best here, but "If X then Y" is a little
too late when your session broke.  But if your session broke and you
read the manual saying "blah blah unset environment variables evil",
you are more likely to suspect "hmm, maybe evil environment variables
were evil".  Fortunately, with distros trying out Flatpaks and Snaps,
XDG_DATA_DIRS is less likely to break them, but still.  We never know
which variable will be the next to blow things up.

Cheers

[1] https://issues.guix.gnu.org/26202
[2] https://issues.guix.gnu.org/45360
[3] https://issues.guix.gnu.org/48300
[4] https://issues.guix.gnu.org/53379

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Hi Liliana and Ludo,

Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> writes:

> Hi Ludo,
>
> Am Samstag, dem 22.01.2022 um 17:04 +0100 schrieb Ludovic Court=C3=A8s:
>> Hi Liliana,
>>=20
>> Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> skribis:
>>=20
>> > * doc/guix.texi (Application Setup): Add subsection for implicit
>> > environment variables.
>> > ---
>> > =C2=A0doc/guix.texi | 27 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> > =C2=A01 file changed, 27 insertions(+)
>> >=20
>> > diff --git a/doc/guix.texi b/doc/guix.texi
>> > index 912a8e3c5a..805e3b611f 100644
>> > --- a/doc/guix.texi
>> > +++ b/doc/guix.texi
>> > @@ -2023,6 +2023,33 @@ want to avoid auto-loading the Emacs
>> > packages installed with Guix, you
>> > =C2=A0can do so by running Emacs with the @option{--no-site-file} opti=
on
>> > =C2=A0(@pxref{Init File,,, emacs, The GNU Emacs Manual}).
>> > =C2=A0
>> > +@subsection Implicit Environment Variables
>> > +
>> > +Many environment variables are defined in a way that assumes a
>> > certain
>> > +default value, even if unset.=C2=A0 For example, bash uses the current
>> > +working directory as @env{PATH} if unset, or @env{XDG_CONFIG_HOME}
>> > +expands to @file{$HOME/.config}.=C2=A0 Some of these defaults remain
>> > the same
>> > +whether a package is used through Guix or not---however,
>> > environment
>> > +variables referring to @file{/etc} or @file{/usr} typically have
>> > their
>> > +meaning subtly changed in Guix.=C2=A0 An application installed via Gu=
ix
>> > might
>> > +instead look up files in its own @file{etc} structure, or (if a
>> > +search-path was specified) even override the default for packages
>> > from
>> > +the foreign distro.
>>=20
>> I think I miss some context: what concrete problem is this trying to
>> solve?=C2=A0 What is it telling me to do?
>>=20
>> I wonder to what extent this is actionable for a user, due to wording
>> that leaves it up to the reader to figure out how this applies to
>> them:
>>=20
>> =C2=A0 =E2=80=9CMany environment variables=E2=80=9D
>> =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ca certain default value=E2=80=9D
>> =C2=A0 =E2=80=9CSome of these=E2=80=9D
>> =C2=A0 =E2=80=9CAn application installed via Guix might=E2=80=9D
>> =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cproblems coming from such implicitly defined=E2=80=9D
>> =C2=A0 =E2=80=A6
>>=20
>> I think the =E2=80=9CApplication Setup=E2=80=9D section should be as con=
crete as
>> possible, with clear instructions (=E2=80=9CIf X then type Y=E2=80=9D), =
possibly
>> followed by explanations that curious readers can read and that
>> others can skip.
>>=20
>> WDYT?

I initially thought it unnecessary and vague, but after reading the bug
reports listed below, it seems to make sense to document it.  And
reading it now, that's probably the issue I encountered myself in
https://issues.guix.gnu.org/53233.

> I think there are too many examples to exhaustively list them all, but
> to give an example, [1, 2, 3, 4] are all the same bug and in [2] Carlo
> said we should document this under "Application Setup".  My personal
> stance is that the Guix behaviour is not a bug and other distros are
> weird for not explicitly binding it.

I like to see this as a bug, so I've opened one as 53514; Guix should
strive to not mess with the host environment, and setting global
variables used by both Guix and a potentially foreign host goes against
this.  The proper fix would be to patch all applications in Guix to use
Guix-specific variables, such as GUIX_XDG_DATA_DIRS instead of
XDG_DATA_DIRS.

> I know my wording is not the best here, but "If X then Y" is a little
> too late when your session broke.  But if your session broke and you
> read the manual saying "blah blah unset environment variables evil",
> you are more likely to suspect "hmm, maybe evil environment variables
> were evil".  Fortunately, with distros trying out Flatpaks and Snaps,
> XDG_DATA_DIRS is less likely to break them, but still.  We never know
> which variable will be the next to blow things up.

Agreed that this is useful in the meantime.  Perhaps add a TODO comment
pointing to the bug I've opened.

Thank you,

Maxim

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Hi,

Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> skribis:

> I think there are too many examples to exhaustively list them all, but
> to give an example, [1, 2, 3, 4] are all the same bug and in [2] Carlo
> said we should document this under "Application Setup".  My personal
> stance is that the Guix behaviour is not a bug and other distros are
> weird for not explicitly binding it.

How about focusing specifically on XDG_DATA_DIRS, which is the root
cause of the first two bugs you mention?

We could say that installing certain packages will cause
~/.guix-profile/etc/profile to define XDG_DATA_DIRS, that this can
interfere with software installed outside Guix, such as GNOME, and that
we recommend unsetting XDG_DATA_DIRS (is that what we recommend?
breaking Guix-installed packages instead of breaking distro-installed
packages?)?

Thanks,
Ludo=E2=80=99.

> [1] https://issues.guix.gnu.org/26202
> [2] https://issues.guix.gnu.org/45360
> [3] https://issues.guix.gnu.org/48300
> [4] https://issues.guix.gnu.org/53379

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Hi,

Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN> skribis:

> I like to see this as a bug, so I've opened one as 53514; Guix should
> strive to not mess with the host environment, and setting global
> variables used by both Guix and a potentially foreign host goes against
> this.  The proper fix would be to patch all applications in Guix to use
> Guix-specific variables, such as GUIX_XDG_DATA_DIRS instead of
> XDG_DATA_DIRS.

This approach has its appeal (like in the =E2=80=98GUIX_PYTHONPATH=E2=80=99=
 case), but
there=E2=80=99s a tension with our other unwritten (?) guideline that we sh=
ould
modify packages as little as possible.

Such wide-ranging changes would have the unfortunate effect that they=E2=80=
=99d
make Guix packages =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D: documentation, bug reports, s=
uggestions
you=E2=80=99d find online would apply to the =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D package=
, but maybe not to
the Guix one.  That is a situation we=E2=80=99d rather avoid IMO.


=E2=80=98XDG_DATA_DIRS=E2=80=99 is a real problem though.  In large part th=
at=E2=80=99s because
its purpose is too broad=E2=80=94what =E2=80=9Cdata dirs=E2=80=9D are we ta=
lking about?  It
would be ideal if we could progressively replace =E2=80=98XDG_DATA_DIRS=E2=
=80=99 search
path specifications with more specific environment variables, when they
exist, or perhaps by using =E2=80=98wrap-program=E2=80=99 instead of having=
 search path
specs.

Right now there are 9 packages that have =E2=80=98XDG_DATA_DIRS=E2=80=99 as=
 their search
path, including 4 Common Lisp packages.  Of the remaining ones, I guess
those we should first focus on are glib and qtbase.

Thoughts?

Ludo=E2=80=99.

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