Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
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Mon, 18 Apr 2022 01:07:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by athena.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 02A681B76D4; Mon, 18 Apr 2022 05:07:49 +0000 (UTC) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#54977: 29.0.50; Customising eshell-modules-list means you won't get new default entries In-Reply-To: <83a6ckz3br.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87a6ckkath.fsf@HIDDEN> <83a6ckz3br.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Emacs/29.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:07:48 -0700 Message-ID: <8735ibx9ln.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54977 Cc: 54977 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hello, On Sun 17 Apr 2022 at 08:28am +03, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> >> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:55:22 -0700 >> >> Suppose that you use the customisation interface to enable the >> eshell-rebind module, and save the result in your init. Now upstream >> Emacs gains a new on-by-default module, e.g. the recently added >> em-extpipe. While everyone who hasn't customised eshell-modules-list >> gets the new module automatically, you'll have to customise the variable >> again, and you can't even just tick a box to add it, as with the other >> truly optional modules, but must manually insert it at the end of the >> list. This is no good. >> >> How about using two separate defcustoms for these two kinds of entry? > > One other idea is to have the default modules not mentioned > explicitly, but instead have some kind of placeholder which stands for > all the default modules. Similar to some path variables that treat an > empty or nil list member as standing for the default value. That would be nicer than two defcustoms, I think. Possibly it could be an uber-module which just pulls in the defaults. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#54977; Package emacs.
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[76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id q60-20020a17090a17c200b001cd567fecaesm9022510pja.26.2022.04.16.22.50.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#54977: 29.0.50; Customising eshell-modules-list means you won't get new default entries To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN>, 54977 <at> debbugs.gnu.org References: <87a6ckkath.fsf@HIDDEN> <34785f50-0c61-332a-180a-4fe7038fee8b@HIDDEN> <87ilr8xpwp.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <a7baaceb-a1a6-952e-8587-e0d882c44454@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:50:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87ilr8xpwp.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54977 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 4/16/2022 10:03 PM, Sean Whitton wrote: > On Sat 16 Apr 2022 at 10:01pm -07, Jim Porter wrote: > >> Maybe it would be good to provide something like that for users of the >> Customize interface as well? Then any defcustom that takes a list >> could either be customized to have an exact set of elements (as it is >> today), or to have "the default, but with FOO added and BAR removed". > > That might be a good enhancement, but I think the Eshell case is a bit > simpler -- using two defcustoms mostly solves it. True, for this case it might be simpler to use two defcustoms, especially if it turns out that adding the necessary bits to the Customize interface proves difficult. I've never looked at the Customize internals, so I'm not sure how hard that would be (though I'm sure it's considerably harder than adding a defcustom to Eshell). Still, enhancing Customize would also (probably) solve this issue for `erc-modules' and `org-modules', and I'm sure lots of third-party packages would benefit too.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#54977; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 54977) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2022 05:28:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 17 01:28:34 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34873 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1nfxSc-0005TE-IL for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:28:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54182) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1nfxSa-0005T0-0c for 54977 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:28:32 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:44596) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1nfxSU-0004IZ-2g; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:28:26 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=RndToq+2mbA2+ClTCTtYAuJWsOM83BPUJpy2EoQT14g=; b=NuPW7zQ+dJKz ux+22F905VQMf4NeIKI7p4tnifLAtwLkUG3MzLhUxD05n99cAytlhDlfFpDR2bPR71rIcevVb7ke5 MGGlxWmEW/RDOVodgtWUV1sh5ojKv5NlPhnWVlAMqGMdLYWmrRAGMx+XLapyaJlRQhj80N02Ftc3R +R/jeHg/tkHaibf19HyVL8dD/404IiWnAcSKAq1sawmL/5vRUzMokXsmR5GAzrtx+5iiWngP9nZSy VxkUA1jxZxsSeV8kdxIv1KUE5bVfnF8A11zmaX4cVOYjnHEJOO3NnthkfL0F+gsP7NhaXIqslyMZ9 tzHz09GF+0E83Y3MkQv9GQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2113 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1nfxST-0007Jt-4M; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:28:25 -0400 Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 08:28:08 +0300 Message-Id: <83a6ckz3br.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87a6ckkath.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Sean Whitton on Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:55:22 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#54977: 29.0.50; Customising eshell-modules-list means you won't get new default entries References: <87a6ckkath.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54977 Cc: 54977 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> > Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:55:22 -0700 > > Suppose that you use the customisation interface to enable the > eshell-rebind module, and save the result in your init. Now upstream > Emacs gains a new on-by-default module, e.g. the recently added > em-extpipe. While everyone who hasn't customised eshell-modules-list > gets the new module automatically, you'll have to customise the variable > again, and you can't even just tick a box to add it, as with the other > truly optional modules, but must manually insert it at the end of the > list. This is no good. > > How about using two separate defcustoms for these two kinds of entry? One other idea is to have the default modules not mentioned explicitly, but instead have some kind of placeholder which stands for all the default modules. Similar to some path variables that treat an empty or nil list member as standing for the default value.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#54977; Package emacs.
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Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by athena.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 715441B6ABB; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 05:03:18 +0000 (UTC) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, 54977 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#54977: 29.0.50; Customising eshell-modules-list means you won't get new default entries In-Reply-To: <34785f50-0c61-332a-180a-4fe7038fee8b@HIDDEN> References: <87a6ckkath.fsf@HIDDEN> <34785f50-0c61-332a-180a-4fe7038fee8b@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Emacs/29.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:03:18 -0700 Message-ID: <87ilr8xpwp.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54977 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hello, On Sat 16 Apr 2022 at 10:01pm -07, Jim Porter wrote: > On 4/16/2022 1:55 PM, Sean Whitton wrote: >> Suppose that you use the customisation interface to enable the >> eshell-rebind module, and save the result in your init. Now upstream >> Emacs gains a new on-by-default module, e.g. the recently added >> em-extpipe. While everyone who hasn't customised eshell-modules-list >> gets the new module automatically, you'll have to customise the variable >> again, and you can't even just tick a box to add it, as with the other >> truly optional modules, but must manually insert it at the end of the >> list. This is no good. > > Generally I resolve this in my config by using a combination of > `add-to-list' and `delete' to manually customize lists like this. Right, me too. > Maybe it would be good to provide something like that for users of the > Customize interface as well? Then any defcustom that takes a list > could either be customized to have an exact set of elements (as it is > today), or to have "the default, but with FOO added and BAR removed". That might be a good enhancement, but I think the Eshell case is a bit simpler -- using two defcustoms mostly solves it. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#54977; Package emacs.
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[76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id q203-20020a632ad4000000b003987c421eb2sm9105561pgq.34.2022.04.16.22.01.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#54977: 29.0.50; Customising eshell-modules-list means you won't get new default entries To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN>, 54977 <at> debbugs.gnu.org References: <87a6ckkath.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <34785f50-0c61-332a-180a-4fe7038fee8b@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:01:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87a6ckkath.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54977 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 4/16/2022 1:55 PM, Sean Whitton wrote: > Suppose that you use the customisation interface to enable the > eshell-rebind module, and save the result in your init. Now upstream > Emacs gains a new on-by-default module, e.g. the recently added > em-extpipe. While everyone who hasn't customised eshell-modules-list > gets the new module automatically, you'll have to customise the variable > again, and you can't even just tick a box to add it, as with the other > truly optional modules, but must manually insert it at the end of the > list. This is no good. Generally I resolve this in my config by using a combination of `add-to-list' and `delete' to manually customize lists like this. Maybe it would be good to provide something like that for users of the Customize interface as well? Then any defcustom that takes a list could either be customized to have an exact set of elements (as it is today), or to have "the default, but with FOO added and BAR removed".
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#54977; Package emacs.
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Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:55:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by melete.silentflame.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 063657E511F; Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:55:22 -0700 (MST) From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN> To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Subject: 29.0.50; Customising eshell-modules-list means you won't get new default entries User-Agent: Emacs/29.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:55:22 -0700 Message-ID: <87a6ckkath.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.25; envelope-from=spwhitton@HIDDEN; helo=wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Hello, eshell-modules-list has two kinds of entries: truly optional modules that the user has chosen to enable, and modules that are enabled by default, and that the user is likely to want to remove from the list only in unusual circumstances. Suppose that you use the customisation interface to enable the eshell-rebind module, and save the result in your init. Now upstream Emacs gains a new on-by-default module, e.g. the recently added em-extpipe. While everyone who hasn't customised eshell-modules-list gets the new module automatically, you'll have to customise the variable again, and you can't even just tick a box to add it, as with the other truly optional modules, but must manually insert it at the end of the list. This is no good. How about using two separate defcustoms for these two kinds of entry? -- Sean Whitton
Sean Whitton <spwhitton@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#54977; Package emacs.
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