GNU bug report logs - #55332
29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 23:14:12 +0300

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Severity: minor
Tags: patch

First off, thank you very much Protesilae for the new translation of the
tutorial!

While reading it I noticed a technical discrepancy with other tutorials:

0. emacs -Q
1. C-u C-h t Greek RET

If the Emacs frame is short enough, I see:

[short.png (image/png, attachment)]

[Message part 3 (text/plain, inline)]

And if it's tall enough, I see:

[tall.png (image/png, attachment)]

[Message part 5 (text/plain, inline)]

IOW, the multiline Greek translation of:

  [Middle of page left blank for didactic purposes.   Text continues below]

is either half-erased in short frames, or divided by several blank lines
in tall frames.

One solution would be to limit the Greek translation to a single line as
in other translations, but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle
multiline instances of this comment, as in the following patch?

[0001-Support-multiline-.-comments-in-Emacs-Tutorial.patch (text/x-diff, inline)]

From d0eee019a6e7b228378074295ef60bf4b6b47af9 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 22:51:36 +0300
Subject: [PATCH] Support multiline [...] comments in Emacs Tutorial

* lisp/tutorial.el (help-with-tutorial): Don't assume [...] comment
spans a single line; instead skip it as a sexp.
---
 lisp/tutorial.el | 5 +++--
 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/tutorial.el b/lisp/tutorial.el
index 0f3a1506d6..8ae370944a 100644
--- a/lisp/tutorial.el
+++ b/lisp/tutorial.el
@@ -905,13 +905,14 @@ help-with-tutorial
                 (progn
                   ;; For a short gap, we don't need the [...] line,
                   ;; so delete it.
-                  (delete-region (point) (progn (end-of-line) (point)))
+                  (delete-region (point) (progn (forward-sexp) (point)))
                   (if (> n 0) (newline n)))
               ;; Some people get confused by the large gap.
               (newline (/ n 2))
 
               ;; Skip the [...] line (don't delete it).
-              (forward-line 1)
+              (forward-sexp)
+              (forward-line)
               (newline (- n (/ n 2)))))
           (goto-char (point-min)))
         (setq buffer-undo-list nil)
-- 
2.35.1

[Message part 7 (text/plain, inline)]

Thanks,

-- 
Basil

In GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, cairo version 1.16.0, Xaw3d scroll bars)
 of 2022-05-08 built on tia
Repository revision: 21ef29d4b1ea85c4b94232f028b3aa29a4a1a81b
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12101003
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid

Configured using:
 'configure CC=gcc-12 'CFLAGS=-Og -ggdb3' --config-cache --prefix
 /home/blc/.local --enable-checking=structs --with-x-toolkit=lucid
 --with-file-notification=yes --with-x'

Configured features:
ACL CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG
JSON LCMS2 LIBOTF LIBSELINUX LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 M17N_FLT MODULES NOTIFY
INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS WEBP X11 XAW3D XDBE XIM XINPUT2 XPM LUCID ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_IE.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Fundamental

Minor modes in effect:
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  indent-tabs-mode: t
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Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
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Memory information:
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 (symbols 48 5860 1)
 (strings 32 16891 1337)
 (string-bytes 1 532340)
 (vectors 16 11507)
 (vector-slots 8 165888 7813)
 (floats 8 23 38)
 (intervals 56 383 0)
 (buffers 992 12))

Message #8 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>, 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 10:45:12 +0300

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
> Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 23:14:12 +0300
>
> First off, thank you very much Protesilae for the new translation of the
> tutorial!

You are welcome and thank you for giving it a try!

[ By the way, what do you think about my choice of word for "buffer"?
  It is the one I had the most doubts about... ]

> [... 14 lines elided]
>
> IOW, the multiline Greek translation of:
>
>   [Middle of page left blank for didactic purposes.   Text continues below]
>
> is either half-erased in short frames, or divided by several blank lines
> in tall frames.
>
> One solution would be to limit the Greek translation to a single line as
> in other translations,

I shortened it to fit on a single line.  See attached patch.

> but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
> this comment, as in the following patch?

Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

[0001-Shorten-note-about-didactic-space-in-TUTORIAL.el_GR-.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]

Message #11 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
Cc: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>, 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 12:08:48 +0200

Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com> writes:

>> but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
>> this comment, as in the following patch?
>
> Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.

I'm not quite sure that forward-sexp will do the correct think in all
circumstances (I'm wondering whether there are languages that would be
using parentheses inside that [...] pair).  But I guess it's unlikely.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #14 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
Cc: contovob <at> tcd.ie, 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 14:55:33 +0300

> From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 10:45:12 +0300
> 
> > but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
> > this comment, as in the following patch?
> 
> Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.

I don't object, but if we don't have examples of tutorials that will
use this feature, do we really need it?

Message #17 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: contovob <at> tcd.ie, 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Subject: Re: bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 16:12:42 +0300

> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 14:55:33 +0300
>
>> From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
>> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 10:45:12 +0300
>> 
>> > but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
>> > this comment, as in the following patch?
>> 
>> Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.
>
> I don't object, but if we don't have examples of tutorials that will
> use this feature, do we really need it?

There is no pressing need for such a change.  I just pushed the change
that shortens the note in TUTORIAL.el_GR to fit on a single line.

Should we pursue this further or close the bug report?

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

Message #20 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
Cc: contovob <at> tcd.ie, 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org
Subject: Re: bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 16:39:52 +0300

> From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
> Cc: contovob <at> tcd.ie, 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 16:12:42 +0300
> 
> > From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> > Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 14:55:33 +0300
> >
> >> From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
> >> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 10:45:12 +0300
> >> 
> >> > but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
> >> > this comment, as in the following patch?
> >> 
> >> Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.
> >
> > I don't object, but if we don't have examples of tutorials that will
> > use this feature, do we really need it?
> 
> There is no pressing need for such a change.  I just pushed the change
> that shortens the note in TUTORIAL.el_GR to fit on a single line.
> 
> Should we pursue this further or close the bug report?

I'm okay either way.  Lars?

Message #23 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: contovob <at> tcd.ie, 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
Subject: Re: bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 15:43:43 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> There is no pressing need for such a change.  I just pushed the change
>> that shortens the note in TUTORIAL.el_GR to fit on a single line.
>> 
>> Should we pursue this further or close the bug report?
>
> I'm okay either way.  Lars?

Me too.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #26 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: contovob <at> tcd.ie, 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, info <at> protesilaos.com
Subject: Re: bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 16:50:24 +0300

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>,  contovob <at> tcd.ie,
>   55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 15:43:43 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> There is no pressing need for such a change.  I just pushed the change
> >> that shortens the note in TUTORIAL.el_GR to fit on a single line.
> >> 
> >> Should we pursue this further or close the bug report?
> >
> > I'm okay either way.  Lars?
> 
> Me too.

Then I guess the easiest is to close the bug, unless Basil disagrees.

Message #29 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
To: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
Cc: 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 15:52:43 +0300

Protesilaos Stavrou [2022-05-09 10:45 +0300] wrote:

> [ By the way, what do you think about my choice of word for "buffer"?
>   It is the one I had the most doubts about... ]

Hm, I'm not a great judge of Greek translations of computing terms,
because my education has all been in English.

That said, αποσβεστήρας (damper / shock absorber) does not strike me as
the intended meaning of 'buffer' in Emacs:

  buffer noun [1]

  1 an apparatus designed to take the shock when an object such as a
  railway carriage or a ship hits something, especially a device using
  springs, on a railway carriage, etc, or a cushion of rope on a ship.

  2 a person or thing which protects from harm or shock, etc, or makes
  its impact less damaging or severe.

Rather, I think it should be interpreted as:

  3 /computing/ a temporary storage area for data that is being
  transmitted from the central processing unit to an output device such
  as a printer.

Thomas Moraitis' 1990 translation of K&R's The C Programming Language,
2nd Edition refers to a buffer as ενδιάμεση αποθήκευση (intermediate
storage), whereas Wikipedia uses προσωρινή μνήμη (temporary memory) or
ενδιάμεση μνήμη (intermediate memory) [2].

Any of these would be fine with me, but they all lack the uniqueness and
self-containment of αποσβεστήρας :).  In all cases we should probably
avoid στιλβωτικό (polisher/shiner) ;).

[1]: https://chambers.co.uk/search/?title=21st&query=buffer
[2]: https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Προσωρινή_μνήμη_(υπολογιστές)

>> IOW, the multiline Greek translation of:
>>
>>   [Middle of page left blank for didactic purposes.   Text continues below]
>>
>> is either half-erased in short frames, or divided by several blank lines
>> in tall frames.
>>
>> One solution would be to limit the Greek translation to a single line as
>> in other translations,
>
> I shortened it to fit on a single line.  See attached patch.

Thanks,

-- 
Basil

Message #32 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
Subject: Re: bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 15:55:26 +0300

Lars Ingebrigtsen [2022-05-09 12:08 +0200] wrote:

> Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com> writes:
>
>>> but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
>>> this comment, as in the following patch?
>>
>> Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.
>
> I'm not quite sure that forward-sexp will do the correct think in all
> circumstances (I'm wondering whether there are languages that would be
> using parentheses inside that [...] pair).  But I guess it's unlikely.

An alternative could be (search-forward "]") or (search-forward "]\n").

-- 
Basil

Message #37 received at 55332-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 55332-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 info <at> protesilaos.com
Subject: Re: bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 15:55:42 +0300

close 55332 29.1
quit

Eli Zaretskii [2022-05-09 09:50 -0400] wrote:

>> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
>> Cc: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>,  contovob <at> tcd.ie,
>>   55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 15:43:43 +0200
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> >> There is no pressing need for such a change.  I just pushed the change
>> >> that shortens the note in TUTORIAL.el_GR to fit on a single line.
>> >> 
>> >> Should we pursue this further or close the bug report?
>> >
>> > I'm okay either way.  Lars?
>> 
>> Me too.
>
> Then I guess the easiest is to close the bug, unless Basil disagrees.

Me three; closing.

Thanks,

-- 
Basil

Message #40 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
Cc: 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 08:34:35 +0300

> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
> Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 15:52:43 +0300
>
> Protesilaos Stavrou [2022-05-09 10:45 +0300] wrote:
>
>> [ By the way, what do you think about my choice of word for "buffer"?
>>   It is the one I had the most doubts about... ]
>
> Hm, I'm not a great judge of Greek translations of computing terms,
> because my education has all been in English.
>
> That said, αποσβεστήρας (damper / shock absorber) does not strike me as
> the intended meaning of 'buffer' in Emacs:
>
>   buffer noun [1]
>
>   1 an apparatus designed to take the shock when an object such as a
>   railway carriage or a ship hits something, especially a device using
>   springs, on a railway carriage, etc, or a cushion of rope on a ship.
>
>   2 a person or thing which protects from harm or shock, etc, or makes
>   its impact less damaging or severe.
>
> Rather, I think it should be interpreted as:
>
>   3 /computing/ a temporary storage area for data that is being
>   transmitted from the central processing unit to an output device such
>   as a printer.
>
> Thomas Moraitis' 1990 translation of K&R's The C Programming Language,
> 2nd Edition refers to a buffer as ενδιάμεση αποθήκευση (intermediate
> storage), whereas Wikipedia uses προσωρινή μνήμη (temporary memory) or
> ενδιάμεση μνήμη (intermediate memory) [2].
>
> Any of these would be fine with me, but they all lack the uniqueness and
> self-containment of αποσβεστήρας :).  In all cases we should probably
> avoid στιλβωτικό (polisher/shiner) ;).
>
> [1]: https://chambers.co.uk/search/?title=21st&query=buffer
> [2]: https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Προσωρινή_μνήμη_(υπολογιστές)

Thanks for sharing!  My choice of term was informed by what is described
(and implied) in the TUTORIAL where the "buffer" acts as a cushion: the
user's edits are not written directly to the underlying file.  Though
that also counts as an intermediate object, i.e. intermediate memory...

The other consideration is stylistic.  If we opt for the wording of
"intermediate memory" then we get verbose formulations for concepts like
the buffer list: "list of intermediate memories".  Is "intermediate
memory" countable?  Is the plural form of "memories" correct in this
context?

Remember that I do not have a background in computer science, so these
finer points are not entirely clear to me.  I am happy to edit the
tutorial in the interest of correctness.

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

Message #43 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Romanos Skiadas <rom.skiad <at> gmail.com>
To: 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#55332
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 12:37:57 +0300

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi all,

Basil brought this thread to my attention, what about ενταμιευτής or
μικροενταμιευτής, courtesy of https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/ενταμιευτής.

For example,

Ολοκλήρωση κειμένου στον μικροενταμιευτή.

I think this fits well both conceptually as a meaning and stylistically, it
being one word albeit a bit longer than the original buffer.

Best,
Romanos

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #46 received at 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info <at> protesilaos.com>
To: Romanos Skiadas <rom.skiad <at> gmail.com> 
Cc: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>, 55332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Greek work for "buffer" in TUTORIAL.el_GR (was: bug#55332:)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 17:44:34 +0300

> From: Romanos Skiadas <rom.skiad <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 12:37:57 +0300
>
> Hi all,

Hello Romanos,

> Basil brought this thread to my attention, what about ενταμιευτής or
> μικροενταμιευτής, courtesy of https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/ενταμιευτής.
>
> For example,
>
> Ολοκλήρωση κειμένου στον μικροενταμιευτή.
>
> I think this fits well both conceptually as a meaning and stylistically, it
> being one word albeit a bit longer than the original buffer.

I like it!  My original choice of term always felt awkward.

Will prepare the update later in the evening.

Thank you!
Protesilaos (or simply "Prot")

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

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