GNU bug report logs - #55439
[PATCH] Add support for the Modi script

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 05:03:59 +0530

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

I have added the modi script to Emacs this time.

I have also renamed Hindi to Devanagari in etc/HELLO, since this script is
also used by
languages other than Hindi, like: Marathi and Nepali. If this change is not
warranted you can
revert it.

Please review the patch.

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

[0001-Add-support-for-the-Modi-script.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]

Message #8 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 12:30:57 +0530

समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com> writes:

> I have also renamed Hindi to Devanagari in etc/HELLO, since this script is
> also used by
> languages other than Hindi, like: Marathi and Nepali. If this change is not
> warranted you can
> revert it.

As a user of Hindi language and Devanagari script, I agree to this
change. May be we can mark this for deprecation in 29 and remove in 30.

Message #11 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 14:33:55 +0300

> From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
>  <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 05:03:59 +0530
> 
> I have added the modi script to Emacs this time.

Thanks.

Can you tell how many more old scripts you intend to add?  I'm
thinking perhaps we should make a separate section for them in NEWS,
instead of basically repeating the same text over and over and over
again.

> I have also renamed Hindi to Devanagari in etc/HELLO, since this
> script is also used by languages other than Hindi, like: Marathi and
> Nepali.

I'm okay with the change, but please add the same sample-text to the
Devanagari language environment in indian.el.

> Please review the patch.
> diff --git a/etc/HELLO b/etc/HELLO
> index 16a38b59d3..04014e8dea 100644
> --- a/etc/HELLO
> +++ b/etc/HELLO
> @@ -38,6 +38,7 @@ Comanche /kəˈmæntʃiː/	Haa marʉ́awe
>  Cree (ᓀᐦᐃᔭᐍᐏᐣ)	ᑕᓂᓯ / ᐙᒋᔮ
>  Czech (čeština)	Dobrý den
>  Danish (dansk)	Hej / Goddag / Halløj
> +Devanagari (देवनागरी)	नमस्ते / नमस्कार
>  Dutch (Nederlands)	Hallo / Dag
>  Efik  /ˈɛfɪk/	Mɔkɔm
>  Egyptian Hieroglyphs (𓂋𓏤𓈖𓆎𓅓‌𓏏𓊖)	𓅓𓊵𓏏𓊪, 𓇍𓇋𓂻𓍘𓇋
> @@ -55,7 +57,6 @@ Greek, ancient (ἑλληνική)	Οὖλέ τε καὶ μέγα χαῖρε
>  Gujarati (ગુજરાતી)	નમસ્તે
>  Hebrew (עִבְרִית)	שָׁלוֹם
>  Hungarian (magyar)	Szép jó napot!
> -Hindi (हिंदी)	नमस्ते / नमस्कार ।

The "Hindi" greeting had a character at its end, U+0964, which
disappeared when you moved the line to Devanagari.  Is that
intentional?

> +*** New language environment "Modi"

Period missing at the end of this line.

Message #14 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 04:55:42 +0530

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>
> Can you tell how many more old scripts you intend to add?  I'm
> thinking perhaps we should make a separate section for them in NEWS,
> instead of basically repeating the same text over and over and over
> again


I am planning to add about 31 more scripts.

I'm okay with the change, but please add the same sample-text to the
> Devanagari language environment in indian.el.
>

Done.

I have also:
    1. added sample texts to other scripts which didn't have them.
    2. replaced the spaces with a tab in the sample texts which I had added.
    3. renamed Punjabi to Gurmukhi in its set-language-info-alist.

In etc/HELLO
I have:
    1. added a Gurumukhi greeting.
    2. replaced the Odia greeting, it was ଶୁଣିବେ (tl. Listen) earlier,
which I don't think is a greeting, therefore I have replaced it with
ନମସ୍କାର (namaskaar)

The "Hindi" greeting had a character at its end, U+0964, which
> disappeared when you moved the line to Devanagari.  Is that
> intentional?
>

Yes, that was intentional, it was a full stop. I didn't think that it was
necessary, the other greetings also did not have it.

Period missing at the end of this line.
>

Oops. Fixed it.  The earlier news entry about Syloti Nagri did not have it
too, so I have also added it there.

On Mon, May 16, 2022 at 5:04 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
> >  <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
> > Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 05:03:59 +0530
> >
> > I have added the modi script to Emacs this time.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Can you tell how many more old scripts you intend to add?  I'm
> thinking perhaps we should make a separate section for them in NEWS,
> instead of basically repeating the same text over and over and over
> again.
>
> > I have also renamed Hindi to Devanagari in etc/HELLO, since this
> > script is also used by languages other than Hindi, like: Marathi and
> > Nepali.
>
> I'm okay with the change, but please add the same sample-text to the
> Devanagari language environment in indian.el.
>
> > Please review the patch.
> > diff --git a/etc/HELLO b/etc/HELLO
> > index 16a38b59d3..04014e8dea 100644
> > --- a/etc/HELLO
> > +++ b/etc/HELLO
> > @@ -38,6 +38,7 @@ Comanche /kəˈmæntʃiː/       Haa marʉ́awe
> >  Cree (ᓀᐦᐃᔭᐍᐏᐣ)       ᑕᓂᓯ / ᐙᒋᔮ
> >  Czech (čeština)      Dobrý den
> >  Danish (dansk)       Hej / Goddag / Halløj
> > +Devanagari (देवनागरी)        नमस्ते / नमस्कार
> >  Dutch (Nederlands)   Hallo / Dag
> >  Efik  /ˈɛfɪk/        Mɔkɔm
> >  Egyptian Hieroglyphs (𓂋𓏤𓈖𓆎𓅓‌𓏏𓊖)       𓅓𓊵𓏏𓊪, 𓇍𓇋𓂻𓍘𓇋
> > @@ -55,7 +57,6 @@ Greek, ancient (ἑλληνική)   Οὖλέ τε καὶ μέγα χαῖρε
> >  Gujarati (ગુજરાતી)   નમસ્તે
> >  Hebrew (עִבְרִית)    שָׁלוֹם
> >  Hungarian (magyar)   Szép jó napot!
> > -Hindi (हिंदी)        नमस्ते / नमस्कार ।
>
> The "Hindi" greeting had a character at its end, U+0964, which
> disappeared when you moved the line to Devanagari.  Is that
> intentional?
>
> > +*** New language environment "Modi"
>
> Period missing at the end of this line.
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

[0001-Add-support-for-the-Modi-script.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]

Message #17 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
To: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:19:09 +0530

[செவ்வாய் மே 17, 2022] समीर सिंह Sameer Singh wrote:

> [...]
> In etc/HELLO
> I have:
>     1. added a Gurumukhi greeting.
>     2. replaced the Odia greeting, it was ଶୁଣିବେ (tl. Listen) earlier, which I don't think is a greeting, therefore I have replaced it
> with ନମସ୍କାର (namaskaar)
>
While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
"Odiya"?  Also, I can ask an Odiya speaker for a greeting if you want.

Message #20 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
To: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:27:40 +0530

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>
> While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
> "Odiya"?
>

Yes I was also thinking about it. Oriya was officially renamed to Odia back
in 2011.
What do you say Eli?

Also, I can ask an Odiya speaker for a greeting if you want.
>

Namaskaar is a standard greeting among most Indian Languages, but sure, you
can confirm it.


On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 3:19 PM Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> [செவ்வாய் மே 17, 2022] समीर सिंह Sameer Singh wrote:
>
> > [...]
> > In etc/HELLO
> > I have:
> >     1. added a Gurumukhi greeting.
> >     2. replaced the Odia greeting, it was ଶୁଣିବେ (tl. Listen) earlier,
> which I don't think is a greeting, therefore I have replaced it
> > with ନମସ୍କାର (namaskaar)
> >
> While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
> "Odiya"?  Also, I can ask an Odiya speaker for a greeting if you want.
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #23 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:10:02 +0300

> From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,  55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:19:09 +0530
> 
> While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
> "Odiya"?

Odia is both a script and a language.  What exactly do you want to
rename, and where in Emacs?

> Also, I can ask an Odiya speaker for a greeting if you want.

Sure.  But isn't what we have now a greeting?

Message #26 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, visuweshm <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:11:53 +0300

> From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:27:40 +0530
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
>  "Odiya"?
> 
> Yes I was also thinking about it. Oriya was officially renamed to Odia back in 2011.
> What do you say Eli?

Where can I see that official renaming announcement?

Message #31 received at 55439-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 16:24:15 +0300

> From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 04:55:42 +0530
> Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  Can you tell how many more old scripts you intend to add?  I'm
>  thinking perhaps we should make a separate section for them in NEWS,
>  instead of basically repeating the same text over and over and over
>  again
> 
> I am planning to add about 31 more scripts. 

Thanks, I therefore rewrote the NEWS entries for the scripts we
already installed to make them more concise.  Please follow this
template for the future additions.

>  I'm okay with the change, but please add the same sample-text to the
>  Devanagari language environment in indian.el.
> 
> Done.
> 
> I have also:
>     1. added sample texts to other scripts which didn't have them.
>     2. replaced the spaces with a tab in the sample texts which I had added.
>     3. renamed Punjabi to Gurmukhi in its set-language-info-alist.
> 
> In etc/HELLO
> I have:
>     1. added a Gurumukhi greeting.
>     2. replaced the Odia greeting, it was ଶୁଣିବେ (tl. Listen) earlier, which I don't think is a greeting, therefore I
> have replaced it with ନମସ୍କାର (namaskaar)
> 
>  The "Hindi" greeting had a character at its end, U+0964, which
>  disappeared when you moved the line to Devanagari.  Is that
>  intentional?
> 
> Yes, that was intentional, it was a full stop. I didn't think that it was necessary, the other greetings also did not
> have it.
> 
>  Period missing at the end of this line.
> 
> Oops. Fixed it.  The earlier news entry about Syloti Nagri did not have it too, so I have also added it there.

Installed, thanks.

Message #34 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:12:58 +0530

[செவ்வாய் மே 17, 2022] Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
>> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:27:40 +0530
>> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> 
>>  While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
>>  "Odiya"?
>> 
>> Yes I was also thinking about it. Oriya was officially renamed to Odia back in 2011.
>> What do you say Eli?
>
> Where can I see that official renaming announcement?

I don't know where to find the official renaming announcement but I can
send you a newspaper article on the name change and the official site of
the Odisha government (the Indian state where Odia is spoken
predominantly).

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Orissas-new-name-is-Odisha/articleshow/7780712.cms

Odisha govt page: https://odisha.gov.in/

[ FWIW, Odia is the actual pronunciation of the language, Oriya is the
  anglicised one (Tamil is also a pretty awful anglicisation of the actual
  language name).  ]

Message #37 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:18:06 +0530

[செவ்வாய் மே 17, 2022] Visuwesh wrote:

> [செவ்வாய் மே 17, 2022] Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>
>>> From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
>>> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:27:40 +0530
>>> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>> 
>>>  While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
>>>  "Odiya"?
>>> 
>>> Yes I was also thinking about it. Oriya was officially renamed to Odia back in 2011.
>>> What do you say Eli?
>>
>> Where can I see that official renaming announcement?
>
> I don't know where to find the official renaming announcement but I can
> send you a newspaper article on the name change and the official site of
> the Odisha government (the Indian state where Odia is spoken
> predominantly).
>
> https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Orissas-new-name-is-Odisha/articleshow/7780712.cms
>
> Odisha govt page: https://odisha.gov.in/
>
> [ FWIW, Odia is the actual pronunciation of the language, Oriya is the
>   anglicised one (Tamil is also a pretty awful anglicisation of the actual
>   language name).  ]

Here's the wikipedia change on the name change:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orissa_(Alteration_of_Name)_Act,_2011

I can't seem to open the PDF linked there but I found this
https://prsindia.org/files/bills_acts/bills_parliament/2010/The_Orissa_Alteration_of_Name_Bill_2010.pdf

Message #40 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:40:00 +0530

[செவ்வாய் மே 17, 2022] Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
>> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,  55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:19:09 +0530
>> 
>> While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
>> "Odiya"?
>
> Odia is both a script and a language.

Yes, that is the case.

>  What exactly do you want to rename, and where in Emacs?

The Emacs manual (`(emacs) Language Environments'), the language
environment, the input methods.  (Those are the instances t hat I know
of, there may be more.)

>> Also, I can ask an Odiya speaker for a greeting if you want.
>
> Sure.  But isn't what we have now a greeting?

I can't read Odia.  But Sameer says that what we have now is not a
greeting.  Regardless, I will also ask if we what have right now is a
greeting or not.

Sameer, looks like "Namaskar" works fine.  This is what he sent
me: "Namaskar, kemiti achhaw?"  ("Namaste, how are you?" tl.)

Message #43 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:44:08 +0530

[செவ்வாய் மே 17, 2022] Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
>> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,  55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 15:19:09 +0530
>> 
>> While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
>> "Odiya"?
>
> Odia is both a script and a language.  What exactly do you want to
> rename, and where in Emacs?
>
>> Also, I can ask an Odiya speaker for a greeting if you want.
>
> Sure.  But isn't what we have now a greeting?

It isn't.  Apparently it translates to "hey listen please."

Message #46 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:04:14 +0300

> From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
>  <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>,  55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:18:06 +0530
> 
> >> Where can I see that official renaming announcement?
> >
> > I don't know where to find the official renaming announcement but I can
> > send you a newspaper article on the name change and the official site of
> > the Odisha government (the Indian state where Odia is spoken
> > predominantly).
> >
> > https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Orissas-new-name-is-Odisha/articleshow/7780712.cms
> >
> > Odisha govt page: https://odisha.gov.in/
> >
> > [ FWIW, Odia is the actual pronunciation of the language, Oriya is the
> >   anglicised one (Tamil is also a pretty awful anglicisation of the actual
> >   language name).  ]
> 
> Here's the wikipedia change on the name change:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orissa_(Alteration_of_Name)_Act,_2011
> 
> I can't seem to open the PDF linked there but I found this
> https://prsindia.org/files/bills_acts/bills_parliament/2010/The_Orissa_Alteration_of_Name_Bill_2010.pdf

Thanks.

Message #49 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:05:47 +0300

> From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
>  <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>,  55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:12:58 +0530
> 
> [ FWIW, Odia is the actual pronunciation of the language, Oriya is the
>   anglicised one (Tamil is also a pretty awful anglicisation of the actual
>   language name).  ]

Oriya is also the name of the corresponding Unicode block, and AFAIU
it will never change (due to the Unicode's stability policies).

I think we should say something like "formerly Oriya" in some place
where we document this script.

Message #52 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:06:33 +0300

> From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:40:00 +0530
> 
> >  What exactly do you want to rename, and where in Emacs?
> 
> The Emacs manual (`(emacs) Language Environments'), the language
> environment, the input methods.  (Those are the instances t hat I know
> of, there may be more.)

Please propose a patch, and TIA.

Message #55 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 18:57:09 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I agree that this change is correct, but let's not ever delete the old
name "Hindi".  Keeping an old alias does no harm.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #58 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com, eliz <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 18:59:12 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
  > "Odiya"?

The old name has been in use for almost a century, if not more, so we
should not rush to deprecate it.  Perhaps in 30 years.

Until then, let's make sure that both the old name and the new name
are accepted, in any places in which people can input the name of a
script.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #61 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 05:44:30 +0530

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>
> I agree that this change is correct, but let's not ever delete the old
> name "Hindi".  Keeping an old alias does no harm.
>

Hindi is not an alias, it is an incorrect term.
No one is using Hindi to refer to the Devanagari script, therefore I think
it should not be readded.

The old name has been in use for almost a century, if not more, so we
> should not rush to deprecate it.  Perhaps in 30 years.
>
> Until then, let's make sure that both the old name and the new name
> are accepted, in any places in which people can input the name of a
> script.
>

I feel like 11 years is enough time.

Only two functions are changed where it affects the user, both are input
methods: odia-itrans and odia-inscript.
If by chance any user is not aware of the new name (which I consider highly
unlikely), they can learn about it when tab completing.
Since both the old and new ones start with an 'O'.

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 4:29 AM Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> wrote:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
>   > "Odiya"?
>
> The old name has been in use for almost a century, if not more, so we
> should not rush to deprecate it.  Perhaps in 30 years.
>
> Until then, let's make sure that both the old name and the new name
> are accepted, in any places in which people can input the name of a
> script.
>
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
> Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
> Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #64 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 08:38:55 +0530

समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com> writes:

>>
>> I agree that this change is correct, but let's not ever delete the old
>> name "Hindi".  Keeping an old alias does no harm.
>>
>
> Hindi is not an alias, it is an incorrect term.
> No one is using Hindi to refer to the Devanagari script, therefore I think
> it should not be readded.

With all due respect for the work that you are doing Sameer, I would
like to disagree here. People often speak like this - "this is written
in Marathi, Hindi, Nepali". While they are referring to the language but
most people don’t know the underlying script name.

Rather I would suggest that we add new aliases for Devanagari - like
Marathi, Nepali... whichever language is using the same script.

Message #67 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
To: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 09:11:27 +0530

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Rereading my previous email, I think its tone may come across as rude/angry.
It was not my intention. It is hard to properly convey a tone with text. I
am sorry.

With all due respect for the work that you are doing Sameer, I would
> like to disagree here. People often speak like this - "this is written
> in Marathi, Hindi, Nepali". While they are referring to the language but
> most people don’t know the underlying script name.
>

At Least according to me, if someone is unfamiliar with the term
Devanagari, he can easily look up what it means or look at the text to its
right and infer the meaning from that.

Rather I would suggest that we add new aliases for Devanagari - like
> Marathi, Nepali... whichever language is using the same script.
>

Devanagari is a widely used script, many languages use it, such as:
Konkani, Bodo, Rajasthani, Hariyanvi, Bhojpuri, Maithili, Newa, Kashmiri,
Dogri, Kumaoni etc.
Therefore it is better to write just one entry that demonstrates that Emacs
supports this character set, after all this is the main purpose of
etc/HELLO.

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 8:40 AM Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
wrote:

> समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
> >>
> >> I agree that this change is correct, but let's not ever delete the old
> >> name "Hindi".  Keeping an old alias does no harm.
> >>
> >
> > Hindi is not an alias, it is an incorrect term.
> > No one is using Hindi to refer to the Devanagari script, therefore I
> think
> > it should not be readded.
>
> With all due respect for the work that you are doing Sameer, I would
> like to disagree here. People often speak like this - "this is written
> in Marathi, Hindi, Nepali". While they are referring to the language but
> most people don’t know the underlying script name.
>
> Rather I would suggest that we add new aliases for Devanagari - like
> Marathi, Nepali... whichever language is using the same script.
>
>
>
>
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #70 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
To: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com, eliz <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 10:03:46 +0530

[செவ்வாய் மே 17, 2022] Richard Stallman wrote:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > While we are it, should we change all instances of "Oriya" in Emacs to
>   > "Odiya"?
>
> The old name has been in use for almost a century, if not more, so we
> should not rush to deprecate it.  Perhaps in 30 years.
>
> Until then, let's make sure that both the old name and the new name
> are accepted, in any places in which people can input the name of a
> script.

I agree that both the new and the old name should be accepted, but I am
not sure it is worth the trouble.  In the interest of serving users, I
think it is better if we do the rename and inconvenience others a tiny
bit.  I would say that the current name "Oriya" makes it hard to find
the Emacs facilities of Odia support harder to find/learn as the user
might not think about searching for the old name.  Also, I believe the
rename will give a certain empowerment to the native speakers; much like
the renaming of cities and towns that has happened/is happening now in
India.

Message #73 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 12:42:17 +0530

समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Rereading my previous email, I think its tone may come across as rude/angry.
> It was not my intention. It is hard to properly convey a tone with text. I
> am sorry.

I don’t remember I got offended by any of the emails in this mailing
list. Intention is what matters to. And it is all good here. No worries.

> ...
> Devanagari is a widely used script, many languages use it, such as:
> Konkani, Bodo, Rajasthani, Hariyanvi, Bhojpuri, Maithili, Newa, Kashmiri,
> Dogri, Kumaoni etc.

I am not disagreeing to what you are saying. My concern is habit and
usability. People usually search for language.

> Therefore it is better to write just one entry that demonstrates that Emacs
> supports this character set, after all this is the main purpose of
> etc/HELLO.

Technically, one entry is enough for showcasing the script. But looking
at the table heading in etc/HELLO, it appears that this file is for
showing language and not the script.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
LANGUAGE (NATIVE NAME)	HELLO
----------------------	-----
Amharic (አማርኛ)	ሠላም
Arabic (العربيّة)	السّلام عليكم
Armenian (հայերեն)	Բարև ձեզ
...
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

It is really odd and not very helpful when we open this file and find
nothing for "Hindi".

Message #76 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org, visuweshm <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 15:45:24 +0300

> From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 05:44:30 +0530
> Cc: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>, 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 
> 	Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> 
>  I agree that this change is correct, but let's not ever delete the old
>  name "Hindi".  Keeping an old alias does no harm.
> 
> Hindi is not an alias, it is an incorrect term.
> No one is using Hindi to refer to the Devanagari script, therefore I think it should not be readded.

AFAIU, Hindi is one language that uses the Devanagari script.  Is this
correct?  If that is correct, how about having two lines in HELLO: one
that says "Hindi" and shows a Hindi greeting, and another that says
"Devanagari" and shows a greeting in some other language that uses
Devanagari?

>  Until then, let's make sure that both the old name and the new name
>  are accepted, in any places in which people can input the name of a
>  script.
> 
> I feel like 11 years is enough time.

In Emacs, 11 years is nowhere near "long enough".

And anyway, the script will not be renamed, since we follow Unicode in
script names.  The patch didn't rename the script, and rightfully so.

> Only two functions are changed where it affects the user, both are input methods: odia-itrans and
> odia-inscript.

As I wrote in the review of the patch, we cannot suddenly remove input
methods that we had for 20 years.  We must find a less drastic
solution.

Message #79 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 15:47:11 +0300

> Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
>  <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 09:11:27 +0530
> 
> Devanagari is a widely used script, many languages use it, such as: Konkani, Bodo, Rajasthani, Hariyanvi,
> Bhojpuri, Maithili, Newa, Kashmiri, Dogri, Kumaoni etc.
> Therefore it is better to write just one entry that demonstrates that Emacs supports this character set, after
> all this is the main purpose of etc/HELLO.

We indeed generally show just a single entry for each script.  But we
don't have to be dogmatic here, and can make exceptions if we feel
they are justified.

Message #82 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 15:51:03 +0300

> From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 12:42:17 +0530
> 
> > Therefore it is better to write just one entry that demonstrates that Emacs
> > supports this character set, after all this is the main purpose of
> > etc/HELLO.
> 
> Technically, one entry is enough for showcasing the script. But looking
> at the table heading in etc/HELLO, it appears that this file is for
> showing language and not the script.

No, we do show scripts, not languages.  There are many more languages
than scripts, so if we'd base that file on languages, we'd need to
make it much larger, and that is not economical.

However, many scripts are used with only one language, and frequently
have the same name.  That is why it may seem that HELLO shows
languages.  But that's a mistake.

Message #85 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>, rms <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 18:55:25 +0530

[புதன் மே 18, 2022] Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
>> Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 05:44:30 +0530
>> Cc: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>, 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 
>> 	Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
>> 
>>  I agree that this change is correct, but let's not ever delete the old
>>  name "Hindi".  Keeping an old alias does no harm.
>> 
>> Hindi is not an alias, it is an incorrect term.
>> No one is using Hindi to refer to the Devanagari script, therefore I think it should not be readded.
>
> AFAIU, Hindi is one language that uses the Devanagari script.  Is this
> correct?

Indeed, Hindi is one of the languages that use the Devanagari script.

> If that is correct, how about having two lines in HELLO: one that
> says "Hindi" and shows a Hindi greeting, and another that says
> "Devanagari" and shows a greeting in some other language that uses
> Devanagari?

The problem here is that most of the North Indian language greetings are
"Namaskar" or "Namaste" (which is what the "Devanagari" greeting is
currently).  But I maybe mistaken since I do not really know any of the
North Indian languages; my knowledge of Hindi is superficial at best.
Either way, I will ask for a greeting in Marathi, which uses the
Devanagari script as well.

>>  Until then, let's make sure that both the old name and the new name
>>  are accepted, in any places in which people can input the name of a
>>  script.
>> 
>> I feel like 11 years is enough time.
>
> In Emacs, 11 years is nowhere near "long enough".
>
> And anyway, the script will not be renamed, since we follow Unicode in
> script names.  The patch didn't rename the script, and rightfully so.
>
>> Only two functions are changed where it affects the user, both are
>> input methods: odia-itrans and
>> odia-inscript.
>
> As I wrote in the review of the patch, we cannot suddenly remove input
> methods that we had for 20 years.  We must find a less drastic
> solution.

Message #88 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com, rms <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 16:33:45 +0300

> From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
>  <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>,  55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>   rms <at> gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 18:55:25 +0530
> 
> Either way, I will ask for a greeting in Marathi, which uses the
> Devanagari script as well.

Thanks.  Maybe someone else will be able to show alternative greetings
in some other language(s) that use Devanagari, and we could then
decide how to proceed in this matter.

Btw, I'd like to clarify:

> And anyway, the script will not be renamed, since we follow Unicode in
> script names.  The patch didn't rename the script, and rightfully so.

When I wrote that, I meant the name of the script as a symbol, which
we use in char-script-table, in font- and fontset-related settings,
and in other similar situations.  I did not mean the name that appears
in HELLO, where we already decided to use Odia, per its official name.
Making the change there doesn't affect user input in any way, it's
just a "display name" of the script, so to say.

Message #91 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org, Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:28:01 +0530

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>
> AFAIU, Hindi is one language that uses the Devanagari script.  Is this
> correct?  If that is correct, how about having two lines in HELLO: one
> that says "Hindi" and shows a Hindi greeting, and another that says
> "Devanagari" and shows a greeting in some other language that uses
> Devanagari?


The problem is, like Visuwesh said, most of the languages which use
Devanagari use Namaste/Namaskaar as a greeting.

Either way, I will ask for a greeting in Marathi, which uses the
> Devanagari script as well.
>

Marathi also uses Namsakaar.

Of course there are also local greetings, so one solution is to use the
standard greetings in Devanagari
and local ones in Hindi, like रामराम (raam raam), पायलागू (paay lagu) etc.

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 7:03 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
> > Cc: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
> >  <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>,  55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> >   rms <at> gnu.org
> > Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 18:55:25 +0530
> >
> > Either way, I will ask for a greeting in Marathi, which uses the
> > Devanagari script as well.
>
> Thanks.  Maybe someone else will be able to show alternative greetings
> in some other language(s) that use Devanagari, and we could then
> decide how to proceed in this matter.
>
> Btw, I'd like to clarify:
>
> > And anyway, the script will not be renamed, since we follow Unicode in
> > script names.  The patch didn't rename the script, and rightfully so.
>
> When I wrote that, I meant the name of the script as a symbol, which
> we use in char-script-table, in font- and fontset-related settings,
> and in other similar situations.  I did not mean the name that appears
> in HELLO, where we already decided to use Odia, per its official name.
> Making the change there doesn't affect user input in any way, it's
> just a "display name" of the script, so to say.
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #94 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
To: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, rms <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:40:21 +0530

[புதன் மே 18, 2022] समीर सिंह Sameer Singh wrote:

>[...]
>  Either way, I will ask for a greeting in Marathi, which uses the
>  Devanagari script as well.
>
> Marathi also uses Namsakaar.
>

I figured that would be the case.

> Of course there are also local greetings, so one solution is to use the standard greetings in Devanagari
> and local ones in Hindi, like रामराम (raam raam), पायलागू (paay lagu) etc.

I'm not sure if using "Ram Ram" is exactly a good idea since it has
religious implications.  
[ There was a thread about where we should draw the line with matters
  like these in emacs-devel recently as well.  ]

Message #97 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
To: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, rms <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:53:36 +0530

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>
> I'm not sure if using "Ram Ram" is exactly a good idea since it has
> religious implications.
>

Yes, it is religious, but I argue it is no more religious than the Spanish
"Adios", French "Adieu" or the English "Goodbye".
Religion plays a huge part in culture, so it is natural that it will also
have its impact on the words.

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 8:40 PM Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> [புதன் மே 18, 2022] समीर सिंह Sameer Singh wrote:
>
> >[...]
> >  Either way, I will ask for a greeting in Marathi, which uses the
> >  Devanagari script as well.
> >
> > Marathi also uses Namsakaar.
> >
>
> I figured that would be the case.
>
> > Of course there are also local greetings, so one solution is to use the
> standard greetings in Devanagari
> > and local ones in Hindi, like रामराम (raam raam), पायलागू (paay lagu)
> etc.
>
> I'm not sure if using "Ram Ram" is exactly a good idea since it has
> religious implications.
> [ There was a thread about where we should draw the line with matters
>   like these in emacs-devel recently as well.  ]
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #100 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org, visuweshm <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 18:47:31 +0300

> From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:28:01 +0530
> Cc: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>, 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org
> 
>  AFAIU, Hindi is one language that uses the Devanagari script.  Is this
>  correct?  If that is correct, how about having two lines in HELLO: one
>  that says "Hindi" and shows a Hindi greeting, and another that says
>  "Devanagari" and shows a greeting in some other language that uses
>  Devanagari?
> 
> The problem is, like Visuwesh said, most of the languages which use Devanagari use Namaste/Namaskaar
> as a greeting.
> 
>  Either way, I will ask for a greeting in Marathi, which uses the
>  Devanagari script as well.
> 
> Marathi also uses Namsakaar.
> 
> Of course there are also local greetings, so one solution is to use the standard greetings in Devanagari
> and local ones in Hindi, like रामराम (raam raam), पायलागू (paay lagu) etc.

So how about using one of those latter ones for the Hindi line in
HELLO?

Message #103 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh
 <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org, Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 21:45:11 +0530

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>
> So how about using one of those latter ones for the Hindi line in
> HELLO?


Ok I will do that.

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 9:17 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
> > Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:28:01 +0530
> > Cc: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>, 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org
> >
> >  AFAIU, Hindi is one language that uses the Devanagari script.  Is this
> >  correct?  If that is correct, how about having two lines in HELLO: one
> >  that says "Hindi" and shows a Hindi greeting, and another that says
> >  "Devanagari" and shows a greeting in some other language that uses
> >  Devanagari?
> >
> > The problem is, like Visuwesh said, most of the languages which use
> Devanagari use Namaste/Namaskaar
> > as a greeting.
> >
> >  Either way, I will ask for a greeting in Marathi, which uses the
> >  Devanagari script as well.
> >
> > Marathi also uses Namsakaar.
> >
> > Of course there are also local greetings, so one solution is to use the
> standard greetings in Devanagari
> > and local ones in Hindi, like रामराम (raam raam), पायलागू (paay lagu)
> etc.
>
> So how about using one of those latter ones for the Hindi line in
> HELLO?
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #106 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 08:44:07 +0530

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> Technically, one entry is enough for showcasing the script. But looking
>> at the table heading in etc/HELLO, it appears that this file is for
>> showing language and not the script.
>
> No, we do show scripts, not languages.  There are many more languages
> than scripts, so if we'd base that file on languages, we'd need to
> make it much larger, and that is not economical.

Got it.

> However, many scripts are used with only one language, and frequently
> have the same name.  That is why it may seem that HELLO shows
> languages.  But that's a mistake.

May be we can improve the format to cover language names in this file in
an economical way (but that could be a separate discussion). As I said,
a language speaker might conclude it wrong even though Emacs supports
the language.

Message #109 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 10:12:22 +0300

> From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
> Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 08:44:07 +0530
> 
> > However, many scripts are used with only one language, and frequently
> > have the same name.  That is why it may seem that HELLO shows
> > languages.  But that's a mistake.
> 
> May be we can improve the format to cover language names in this file in
> an economical way (but that could be a separate discussion).

I think this could be a slippery slope.  Once we start showing
language names there, we risk people starting to request us to name
their favorite languages in the file, and we'd have to add more and
more of them.

> As I said, a language speaker might conclude it wrong even though
> Emacs supports the language.

I don't think I understand how could a language speaker arrive at some
wrong conclusions, please elaborate.  If the problem is caused by this
blurb we have at the beginning:

  This is a list of ways to say hello in various languages.
  It is not intended to be comprehensive, but to demonstrate
  some of the character sets that Emacs supports.

then we could amend that text.

Message #112 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 19:10:47 +0530

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> May be we can improve the format to cover language names in this file in
>> an economical way (but that could be a separate discussion).
>>
> I think this could be a slippery slope.  Once we start showing
> language names there, we risk people starting to request us to name
> their favorite languages in the file, and we'd have to add more and
> more of them.

I retract my statement. True, that would be too much.

>> As I said, a language speaker might conclude it wrong even though
>> Emacs supports the language.
>
> I don't think I understand how could a language speaker arrive at some
> wrong conclusions, please elaborate.  If the problem is caused by this
> blurb we have at the beginning:
>
>   This is a list of ways to say hello in various languages.
>   It is not intended to be comprehensive, but to demonstrate
>   some of the character sets that Emacs supports.
>
> then we could amend that text.

We can just add this or something like this at the end of the above
paragraph - "Search for the script name of your language to see if your
language is supported."

Message #115 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 16:58:04 +0300

> From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
> Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 19:10:47 +0530
> 
> >> As I said, a language speaker might conclude it wrong even though
> >> Emacs supports the language.
> >
> > I don't think I understand how could a language speaker arrive at some
> > wrong conclusions, please elaborate.  If the problem is caused by this
> > blurb we have at the beginning:
> >
> >   This is a list of ways to say hello in various languages.
> >   It is not intended to be comprehensive, but to demonstrate
> >   some of the character sets that Emacs supports.
> >
> > then we could amend that text.
> 
> We can just add this or something like this at the end of the above
> paragraph - "Search for the script name of your language to see if your
> language is supported."

Sorry, I don't think I understand.  Could you explain how that text
could mislead someone into incorrect conclusions?  Armed with that
explanation, I think I will be able to understand your suggestion.

Message #118 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 20:01:40 +0530

[வியாழன் மே 19, 2022] Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
>> Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 19:10:47 +0530
>> 
>> >> As I said, a language speaker might conclude it wrong even though
>> >> Emacs supports the language.
>> >
>> > I don't think I understand how could a language speaker arrive at some
>> > wrong conclusions, please elaborate.  If the problem is caused by this
>> > blurb we have at the beginning:
>> >
>> >   This is a list of ways to say hello in various languages.
>> >   It is not intended to be comprehensive, but to demonstrate
>> >   some of the character sets that Emacs supports.
>> >
>> > then we could amend that text.
>> 
>> We can just add this or something like this at the end of the above
>> paragraph - "Search for the script name of your language to see if your
>> language is supported."
>
> Sorry, I don't think I understand.  Could you explain how that text
> could mislead someone into incorrect conclusions?  Armed with that
> explanation, I think I will be able to understand your suggestion.

I will use the case of Devanagari to explain the proposal: a number of
languages uses Devanagari as the script---Hindi, Marathi, Bhojpuri,
Konkani, etc.  Pankaj says that one might not know that their language
uses the _script_ called Devanagari as people rarely speak about the
_script_ itself but more about their _language_.  At least to me, it is
far less natural to speak about the script a language uses; we mostly
speak of the language itself and refer to the script as "the way we
write X language" (note how I don't use the word "script" at all here).

Message #121 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 18:52:25 +0300

> From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>,  55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 20:01:40 +0530
> 
> [வியாழன் மே 19, 2022] Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
> >> Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >> Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 19:10:47 +0530
> >> 
> >> >> As I said, a language speaker might conclude it wrong even though
> >> >> Emacs supports the language.
> >> >
> >> > I don't think I understand how could a language speaker arrive at some
> >> > wrong conclusions, please elaborate.  If the problem is caused by this
> >> > blurb we have at the beginning:
> >> >
> >> >   This is a list of ways to say hello in various languages.
> >> >   It is not intended to be comprehensive, but to demonstrate
> >> >   some of the character sets that Emacs supports.
> >> >
> >> > then we could amend that text.
> >> 
> >> We can just add this or something like this at the end of the above
> >> paragraph - "Search for the script name of your language to see if your
> >> language is supported."
> >
> > Sorry, I don't think I understand.  Could you explain how that text
> > could mislead someone into incorrect conclusions?  Armed with that
> > explanation, I think I will be able to understand your suggestion.
> 
> I will use the case of Devanagari to explain the proposal: a number of
> languages uses Devanagari as the script---Hindi, Marathi, Bhojpuri,
> Konkani, etc.  Pankaj says that one might not know that their language
> uses the _script_ called Devanagari as people rarely speak about the
> _script_ itself but more about their _language_.  At least to me, it is
> far less natural to speak about the script a language uses; we mostly
> speak of the language itself and refer to the script as "the way we
> write X language" (note how I don't use the word "script" at all here).

Thanks.  So will the text below be better?

  This is a list of ways to say hello using various scripts.
  It is not intended to be comprehensive, but to demonstrate
  some of the character sets and writing systems that Emacs
  supports.  Look for the script used to write your language,
  to see if it is supported.

Message #124 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:02:41 +0530

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> >> We can just add this or something like this at the end of the above
>> >> paragraph - "Search for the script name of your language to see if your
>> >> language is supported."
>> >
>> > Sorry, I don't think I understand.  Could you explain how that text
>> > could mislead someone into incorrect conclusions?  Armed with that
>> > explanation, I think I will be able to understand your suggestion.
>> 
>> I will use the case of Devanagari to explain the proposal: a number of
>> languages uses Devanagari as the script---Hindi, Marathi, Bhojpuri,
>> Konkani, etc.  Pankaj says that one might not know that their language
>> uses the _script_ called Devanagari as people rarely speak about the
>> _script_ itself but more about their _language_.  At least to me, it is
>> far less natural to speak about the script a language uses; we mostly
>> speak of the language itself and refer to the script as "the way we
>> write X language" (note how I don't use the word "script" at all here).

Thanks Visuwesh for the explanation.

> Thanks.  So will the text below be better?
>
>   This is a list of ways to say hello using various scripts.
>   It is not intended to be comprehensive, but to demonstrate
>   some of the character sets and writing systems that Emacs
>   supports.  Look for the script used to write your language,
>   to see if it is supported.

Yes. IMO, this is better explanation. Just one question - in the first
sentence -- "ways to _say_ hello" -- will it be "say" or "write"? Or
anyone is okay?

Message #127 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com, eliz <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 19:13:53 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I agree that both the new and the old name should be accepted, but I am
  > not sure it is worth the trouble.

It is very little trouble to accept additional names, as far as I can
see.

                                       In the interest of serving users, I
  > think it is better if we do the rename and inconvenience others a tiny
  > bit.

I cannot follow the reasoning here.  Assuming we add support for the
new name, how does deleting the old name benefit any users?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #130 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: समीर सिंह Sameer Singh <lumarzeli30 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz <at> gnu.org, visuweshm <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 19:13:54 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Yes, it is religious, but I argue it is no more religious than the Spanish
  > "Adios", French "Adieu"

They are much too religious!  I speak those languages, and I refuse to
use those words because using them would endorse religion.

                            or the English "Goodbye".

"Goodbye" is not like the other two.  It was derived from "God be with
you," but in the process it was contracted so much that the
relationship is not obvious even when explained.  English-speakers in
general do not see any relationship between "Goodbye" and "god".
Thus, in practice "Goodbye" is not religious.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #133 received at 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
Cc: 55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, visuweshm <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#55439: [PATCH] Add support for the Modi script
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 11:06:06 +0300

> From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj <at> codeisgreat.org>
> Cc: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>,  55439 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:02:41 +0530
> 
> >   This is a list of ways to say hello using various scripts.
> >   It is not intended to be comprehensive, but to demonstrate
> >   some of the character sets and writing systems that Emacs
> >   supports.  Look for the script used to write your language,
> >   to see if it is supported.
> 
> Yes. IMO, this is better explanation. Just one question - in the first
> sentence -- "ways to _say_ hello" -- will it be "say" or "write"? Or
> anyone is okay?

"Write" it is, thanks.

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