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Subject: bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
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Dear maintainers,

With =E2=80=9Cclassic=E2=80=9D X11 support in Emacs and GTK (probably the o=
thers, too),
pressing the keypad separator ("," on, e.g., a german keyboard layout,
"." on most others), gave emacs the key <kp-separator>.  With pgtk, this
is no longer the case.

This is a feature regression, because it no longer allows, for example,
remapping <kp-separator> to "." for `calc-digit-map`, so I can=E2=80=99t en=
ter
decimal numbers using only the keypad.  As a workaround, I currently
have (define-key calc-digit-map (kbd ",") "."), but if I wanted to use
the vector feature of calc, I=E2=80=99d no longer have the comma.

Steps to reproduce:
> fictive-window-manager-control set-keyboard-map de
> # maybe some locale stuff, who knows
> ./configure --with-pgtk && make
> src/emacs -Q
> C-h k <kp-separator>

Expected output:
> , (translated from <kp-separator>) runs the command [=E2=80=A6]

Actual output:
> , runs the command [=E2=80=A6]

I traced this a bit.  In pgtkterm.c:key_press_event(),
pgtkim.c:pgtk_im_filter_keypress() is called, which essentially defers
to gtk_im_context_filter_keypress() from GTK.  From its
documentation[0]:

> Allow an input method to internally handle key press and release
> events.  If this function returns `TRUE`, then no further processing
> should be done for this key event.

Well, okay.  Unfortunately, I barely know enough GTK to get the gist of
what is happening here, by far not enough to fix this issue.

[0]: https://docs.gtk.org/gtk3/method.IMContext.filter_keypress.html


In GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.34, c=
airo version 1.16.0)
 of 2022-06-11 built on localhost
Repository revision: 98365c7b1e1e1d3d5f7185f2d4a2baa1c65b4540
Repository branch: master
System Description: Gentoo Linux

Configured using:
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Configured features:
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Load-path shadows:
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From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Thomas Schneider <qsx@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#56117: Acknowledgement (29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish
 between <kp-separator> and "."/",")
Message-ID: <handler.56117.B.16557661774363.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 23:03:02 +0000

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Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
Resent-From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
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To: Thomas Schneider <qsx@HIDDEN>
Cc: 56117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
References: <wwuk09bx7jq.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2022 10:00:28 +0800
In-Reply-To: <wwuk09bx7jq.fsf@HIDDEN> (Thomas Schneider's message of
 "Tue, 21 Jun 2022 01:02:33 +0200")
Message-ID: <87y1xqkc77.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Thomas Schneider <qsx@HIDDEN> writes:

> Dear maintainers,
>
> With =E2=80=9Cclassic=E2=80=9D X11 support in Emacs and GTK (probably the=
 others, too),
> pressing the keypad separator ("," on, e.g., a german keyboard layout,
> "." on most others), gave emacs the key <kp-separator>.  With pgtk, this
> is no longer the case.

This is a known problem with several GTK input methods.  There is
nothing we can do.  You can disable using the GTK input method system by
running (pgtk-use-im-context nil), but quite obviously input methods and
the compose key will no longer work.

If you are using X Windows, this, along with many other problems, is why
you should not be using the PGTK port.  Contrary to popular belief, the
"classic" X support is not slower than the PGTK port (in fact, it is
often faster), and has much better support for the X window system,
including features that are simply absent on PGTK, such as support for
drag-and-drop.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
Resent-From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
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Cc: 56117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Thomas Schneider <qsx@HIDDEN>
From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87y1xqkc77.fsf@HIDDEN> (Po Lu's message of "Tue, 21 Jun 2022
 10:00:28 +0800")
References: <wwuk09bx7jq.fsf@HIDDEN> <87y1xqkc77.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 13:44:37 -0700
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Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes:

> This is a known problem with several GTK input methods.  There is
> nothing we can do.

Is this bug a wontfix, then?

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Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:

> Is this bug a wontfix, then?

Not exactly, but it's a duplicate of bug#55660 and bug#53200, and
countless others.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Is this bug a wontfix, then?
>
> Not exactly, but it's a duplicate of bug#55660 and bug#53200, and
> countless others.

And as both Eli and I have said, we think those changes you've made to
pgtk here should be reverted so that these keys work as before.  Even
though it's "wrong".  Maintaining a user-facing program like Emacs is
70% dealing with bugs and misfeatures in other systems we're interfacing
with.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:51:01 +0200
In-Reply-To: <87v8ssi4xi.fsf@HIDDEN> (Po Lu via's message of "Thu, 23 Jun
 2022 08:44:57 +0800")
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 Content preview:  Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife
 of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: >> Is this bug a wontfix,
 then? > > Not exactly, but it's a duplicate of bug#55660 and bug#53200, and
 > countless others. 
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Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Is this bug a wontfix, then?
>
> Not exactly, but it's a duplicate of bug#55660 and bug#53200, and
> countless others.

And as both Eli and I have said, we think those changes you've made to
pgtk here should be reverted so that these keys work as before.  Even
though it's "wrong".  Maintaining a user-facing program like Emacs is
70% dealing with bugs and misfeatures in other systems we're interfacing
with.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 16:16:41 +0800
In-Reply-To: <87tu8bzul6.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu,
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Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:

> And as both Eli and I have said, we think those changes you've made to
> pgtk here should be reverted so that these keys work as before.

This isn't the super-key related bug, and in fact they shouldn't have
been merged.  No amount of changes on our side can work around input
methods swallowing the shift modifier in "C-S-u" and the "kp-" in
"kp-separator".

> Even though it's "wrong".  Maintaining a user-facing program like
> Emacs is 70% dealing with bugs and misfeatures in other systems we're
> interfacing with.

I'm trying to figure out how all of that fits together in Wayland to
hopefully fix it in GTK upstream.  Hard-coding real modifier values is
very fundamentally wrong under both X and GTK, and leads to extremely
hard-to-diagnose problems down-the-road.

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From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
References: <wwuk09bx7jq.fsf@HIDDEN> <87y1xqkc77.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 16:16:41 +0800
In-Reply-To: <87tu8bzul6.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu,
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Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:

> And as both Eli and I have said, we think those changes you've made to
> pgtk here should be reverted so that these keys work as before.

This isn't the super-key related bug, and in fact they shouldn't have
been merged.  No amount of changes on our side can work around input
methods swallowing the shift modifier in "C-S-u" and the "kp-" in
"kp-separator".

> Even though it's "wrong".  Maintaining a user-facing program like
> Emacs is 70% dealing with bugs and misfeatures in other systems we're
> interfacing with.

I'm trying to figure out how all of that fits together in Wayland to
hopefully fix it in GTK upstream.  Hard-coding real modifier values is
very fundamentally wrong under both X and GTK, and leads to extremely
hard-to-diagnose problems down-the-road.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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> Cc: 56117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@HIDDEN, qsx@HIDDEN
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 16:16:41 +0800
> From:  Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
> 
> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > And as both Eli and I have said, we think those changes you've made to
> > pgtk here should be reverted so that these keys work as before.
> 
> This isn't the super-key related bug, and in fact they shouldn't have
> been merged.  No amount of changes on our side can work around input
> methods swallowing the shift modifier in "C-S-u" and the "kp-" in
> "kp-separator".

Maybe we are talking about an issue that is not understood well enough
by some participants (e.g., myself).  Can you please describe in more
detail what causes this particular issue?

> > Even though it's "wrong".  Maintaining a user-facing program like
> > Emacs is 70% dealing with bugs and misfeatures in other systems we're
> > interfacing with.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how all of that fits together in Wayland to
> hopefully fix it in GTK upstream.  Hard-coding real modifier values is
> very fundamentally wrong under both X and GTK, and leads to extremely
> hard-to-diagnose problems down-the-road.

Instead of hard-coding them, we could have them in some Lisp data
structure, where both changing them and eliminating them altogether
will be much easier.  Just an idea.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 16:40:10 +0800
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> Maybe we are talking about an issue that is not understood well enough
> by some participants (e.g., myself).  Can you please describe in more
> detail what causes this particular issue?

Basically, GTK input methods (which are maintained outside GTK) tend to
"swallow" the difference between keypresses like "C-S-u" and "C-u",
along with the difference between "kp-separator" and the separator
itself.

The reason is that doing so is slightly more convenient for the input
method developers, and most GTK programs, unlike Emacs, have no need to
tell those keypresses apart.

So in practice, Emacs users either have the choice of disabling the use
of system input methods, or putting up with those issues.

They are already documented in PROBLEMS, but somehow we still get a
continuous stream of people reporting them as bugs in Emacs.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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> From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
> Cc: larsi@HIDDEN,  56117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  stefan@HIDDEN,
>   qsx@HIDDEN
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 16:40:10 +0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > Maybe we are talking about an issue that is not understood well enough
> > by some participants (e.g., myself).  Can you please describe in more
> > detail what causes this particular issue?
> 
> Basically, GTK input methods (which are maintained outside GTK) tend to
> "swallow" the difference between keypresses like "C-S-u" and "C-u",
> along with the difference between "kp-separator" and the separator
> itself.
> 
> The reason is that doing so is slightly more convenient for the input
> method developers, and most GTK programs, unlike Emacs, have no need to
> tell those keypresses apart.

And there's absolutely no way for Emacs to get at the original keys?
Or for users to configure their systems so as to work around this
"swallowing"?  I have hard time believing that no one has discovered
any workarounds for this misfeature.  Emacs may be rare in its needs
of accessing keys, but it cannot be the only application that does
that.  The NumLock key is there for a reason, and applications do use
it.

> So in practice, Emacs users either have the choice of disabling the use
> of system input methods, or putting up with those issues.

Can those system input methods be easily toggled, which would allow to
disable them temporarily, just for the period of time the kp-* keys
are needed?

> They are already documented in PROBLEMS, but somehow we still get a
> continuous stream of people reporting them as bugs in Emacs.

Because it's an annoying problem, I'm guessing, and the solution has
downsides that users perhaps consider annoying as well.  PROBLEMS is
only a satisfactory solution when a problem is rare or the solution
doesn't rob one of too much of useful functionality.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 18:02:35 +0800
In-Reply-To: <83tu8bemk9.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 23 Jun
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> And there's absolutely no way for Emacs to get at the original keys?

It can by turning the input method off, but as a result any features
provided by them will no longer work.

Most users prefer working input methods to those few rare keys, so it is
on by default.

> Or for users to configure their systems so as to work around this
> "swallowing"?  I have hard time believing that no one has discovered
> any workarounds for this misfeature.

I feel the same way, but didn't find anything.

> Can those system input methods be easily toggled, which would allow to
> disable them temporarily, just for the period of time the kp-* keys
> are needed?

No, we don't have such a feature yet.  But it would be possible to
implement it.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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> From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
> Cc: larsi@HIDDEN,  56117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  stefan@HIDDEN,
>   qsx@HIDDEN
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 18:02:35 +0800
> 
> > Can those system input methods be easily toggled, which would allow to
> > disable them temporarily, just for the period of time the kp-* keys
> > are needed?
> 
> No, we don't have such a feature yet.  But it would be possible to
> implement it.

What I meant was a simple enough key sequence to turn the input method
off and on.  If we can do that from Emacs, maybe we should provide
such a feature, it could alleviate the pain in at least some cases.

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Subject: bug#56117: 29.0.50; pgtk does not distinguish between <kp-separator> and "."/","
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> What I meant was a simple enough key sequence to turn the input method
> off and on.  If we can do that from Emacs, maybe we should provide
> such a feature, it could alleviate the pain in at least some cases.

Which key sequence would you suggest binding to such a command?

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> From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
> Cc: larsi@HIDDEN,  56117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  stefan@HIDDEN,
>   qsx@HIDDEN
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 19:37:15 +0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > What I meant was a simple enough key sequence to turn the input method
> > off and on.  If we can do that from Emacs, maybe we should provide
> > such a feature, it could alleviate the pain in at least some cases.
> 
> Which key sequence would you suggest binding to such a command?

I don't know.  Is "C-x C-\" available?

Last modified: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 13:15:01 UTC

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