Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 13:54:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 09:54:26 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42117 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1oBGLK-0007TW-H8 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:54:26 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f46.google.com ([209.85.216.46]:38554) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1oBGLI-0007TJ-Nx for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:54:25 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f46.google.com with SMTP id 89-20020a17090a09e200b001ef7638e536so11463710pjo.3 for <56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 06:54:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=A47MQjbIYAGvrjo6wnk5cKTwNDRPdaMAUeyQZrVqA+s=; b=g7eRHMh4qpiMEbjujRKBq/EK/doa2WDDL/nnTQVwFB+LighVclrhmoU8UAzwO97dyN PSzOCiv2aAp9W7gVMP8ckSt2uOQBOllHf7R7UBzYGPGkDFWlzsmfDdVxncQTKmhcw1Xn YkTpHvj1JM9MXwNRX+CSszfpC0CSt+Sdto+JNGReYm1NOnDPesBbTuKHKYDiTYlfa/gZ StpF3LH03mEAtkN2thJVQrONHcITja+ErSohdTuB7URmqQ685SBl5OK3BcXt4I5Ppcn3 Kl7nFOZ7QvX1kX1cgBQl6QLnLO4YwuYd7knyYcmLA3aqZSSgT3uXn6Z16yfALnbw2HFf 3fjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora/vnULc9o9WS2Sji2HtQlj0tbMoT1KyOe42Bsfga3ZCv6H2znTk MVJ+LjZWFEYkhPqvfWA6+/Iwj3w8XOxwSTOwib0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1vl2BnZa3oRdJ4IZR842Vr3Gajqz0UWPWNuhpfIrqtCXMwb0+RB//acJAKSz2WCqATl41u1cV/ddCOGa0IL/ME= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:896:b0:1ef:935c:f326 with SMTP id bj22-20020a17090b089600b001ef935cf326mr4452398pjb.193.1657634058982; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 06:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:54:18 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <877d4iwiyq.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN> <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN> <83sfn6xzhf.fsf@HIDDEN> <877d4iwiyq.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:54:18 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmkAyeFDTGC3xczCdeSBj-iwz69Q9XLraTw9hnraAF1SxA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508 Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes: > Probably because help-echo is absent in NS on Emacs 28, which is what > Stefan is presumably using. (I actually use GNU/Linux, but I have a macOS laptop at work.)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#56508; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 56403a89125405b6b5d13f8be474cf97; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 13:37:07 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN> <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN> <83sfn6xzhf.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 21:37:01 +0800 In-Reply-To: <83sfn6xzhf.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:54:52 +0300") Message-ID: <877d4iwiyq.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20407 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 248 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508 Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > Our current stopgap is to tell more in the help-echo (which you for > some reason ignore in your criticism). Probably because help-echo is absent in NS on Emacs 28, which is what Stefan is presumably using.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#56508; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 113657c304281ec6c2a3c547766a8688; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 13:35:25 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN> <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 21:35:18 +0800 In-Reply-To: <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 12 Jul 2022 05:40:30 +0300") Message-ID: <87czeawj1l.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20407 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 325 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508 Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > I believe we should leave that menu alone. I agree. In fact, the current arrangement of the Help and Options menus is also very useful for finding bugs in GUI code. The development of the Haiku port would not have been possible without the deeply nested internationalization menus.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#56508; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 9456b9962a9b0b435d7e07a239df6a7a; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 13:31:44 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN> <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN> <87tu7mspm7.fsf@miha-pc> <CADwFkmkru48RHOcaxnCuVeM2hi0z56-QOAh=1_QXqZgUiRhTDQ@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 21:31:38 +0800 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkru48RHOcaxnCuVeM2hi0z56-QOAh=1_QXqZgUiRhTDQ@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 12 Jul 2022 05:10:06 -0500") Message-ID: <87k08iwj7p.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20407 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 353 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508 Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, miha@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the >> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to >> understand *Help* buffer. > > That would be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed. Why would we replace that with the item that is displayed above it?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#56508; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 13:16:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 09:16:23 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41943 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1oBFkL-00038l-Lq for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:16:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47620) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFkJ-00031n-Rs for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:16:12 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41698) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFkB-0005WI-Lu; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:16:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=e659HNtI6/KuuW3ZtAPlF5A3YWZ5zIUjPb3ZI7DJXVA=; b=TV4vpjcLx69H /0cQ59x1BpGGl3uYif0ruEvr21uwKxueErIV8ky0+0dV0RLaVtnNkxTFTuAlJHEHO7tksS1K6Wqtv l8HxJg6zdXwGtQLJnMnoiuiro8iPcdr7u0dZZsDvcUmYQk8fvDyae66oVW+nE8St8X0LtyieBBs5W 0v8O4CX3JJwPVHQFCfe4QVth9QwXJLdkDzHt4WeQIZISkNdvPFYTMZklmG/ZwDFl5XBr1FLWXKexY O2qwi3AFkJt/poR7rF8kQSd48Z6xj75RbKN3bpNUuoypocdh3eXg2ASAvih1Q0v6b5f8yY5c2S4lI IQ9XUnJfSY3CMNr8fZp26g==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2515 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFk9-0004Uq-RI; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:16:03 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 16:15:51 +0300 Message-Id: <83pmiaxyig.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: <miha@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87tu7mspm7.fsf@miha-pc> Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN> <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN> <87tu7mspm7.fsf@miha-pc> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508 Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: <miha@HIDDEN> > Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 10:26:56 +0200 > > Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > > >>> 5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this > >>> useful? I just get this cryptic message here: > >>> > >>> F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:] > >> > >> It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding, > >> Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output). > > > > I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users > > will. I don't understand almost any of it myself. For example, what > > does "=:" mean? And what does "default" mean? > > > > This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in > > the help menu, to me. > > Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the > describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to > understand *Help* buffer. But we already have such an item in the same menu, just above the offending one. Why would we need to have it twice?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#56508; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 13:14:17 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 09:14:17 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41931 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1oBFiT-0001rT-3Y for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:14:17 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37028) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFiS-0001rH-17 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:14:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Vdarko3y0vtTpg06KP8pesK7cPQ/qMnYryqfnKk+gN8=; b=O4WSoeITnPNZHLV/5RBKl7vKaR BryO5T+h36HkeAKzgk2Bd9pNQ1Wtr+csmG8r9ZTCNTVNhpk2NVD2KP5DNSv2aTYjSltl6ATOAPrPO MDq2+cuCjx4VfaAJmU4UBJSmPmUoFDTwSZ6SdVLEf4ZNY37rQwKI0wFUMVhubpa+u7UE=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFiI-0007ff-Ij; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:14:09 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkru48RHOcaxnCuVeM2hi0z56-QOAh=1_QXqZgUiRhTDQ@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 12 Jul 2022 05:10:06 -0500") References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN> <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN> <87tu7mspm7.fsf@miha-pc> <CADwFkmkru48RHOcaxnCuVeM2hi0z56-QOAh=1_QXqZgUiRhTDQ@HIDDEN> X-Now-Playing: Anohni's _The Versions_: "Woman" Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:14:04 +0200 Message-ID: <87fsj6xylf.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the >> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to >> understand *Help* buffer. > > That would be much more [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508 Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, miha@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the >> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to >> understand *Help* buffer. > > That would be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed. Yes, I think that's a much better choice. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#56508; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 12:55:44 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 08:55:44 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41889 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1oBFQW-0001Jq-3M for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39946) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFQU-0001Jd-Pp for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:43 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41498) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFQP-0002M7-Ef; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=lpPWmhSoIh30yP8W2Oq4JK7Q40P6Dx8n1T7YG08WWcw=; b=ScdxQmLx4Zcf sm6qFXQ7rfY/0XerYrydrS/7AzLHY+c2TOh+8V2fCet2JndVcYkUkG1SHXC/JJkGNy3bYTxqk7MKm ICqHz6AuYlmXfbcbzg/zGpY/e2qzRmNQvPY/jdndCfSNtSk5EvF81BsNTLDUd/eoSzYqrhaTlBNhu E1FfDN33+bE/gAOvyPZn0hBSE1HiINkmKemQtd1Z61qFxTU73MpvI8ZQEpmq8Csd5B5qyq9x6IcQm YqwiUu9fYK3ivmPDgukyFs/G6IJSjU2rRA8BYvXvbrEErHN4VY6TJss6mVPUEWxjgM/3UCJJl4lAD RO7aoXclV04IFXmNWgEsdA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1239 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFPq-0006vG-Uj; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:04 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:54:52 +0300 Message-Id: <83sfn6xzhf.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Kangas on Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN> <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508 Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> > Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500 > Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > >> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> > >> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500 > >> > >> Suggestions for the "Help" menu: > > > > I object. We just reshuffled that menu recently, let's not touch it > > for another major release or two. > > Sorry, I must have missed that we did that. In any case, I don't think > that is very good grounds for not making further improvements. Oh yes, it is: every significant change in the UI/UX means confusion for users who are used to the previous one. It is only kind to them to let them some time to adapt. > > Specific comments: > > > >> 1. Remove "Emacs FAQ". It is not nearly as up-to-date as the > >> manual, and most users these days will either find it by other > >> means or just search the web. > > > > So you are basically saying we don't need the FAQ? > > I'm saying that we don't need it in the menu (at least not in its > current shape). Many applications that are serious about their users have such a menu item on the Help menu. I see no reason why Emacs shouldn't. > >> 2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist". Sorry, but in terms of chatbots > >> there are *way* better ones out there these days. If anything, > >> move it to "Games". > > > > I object to making Emacs dead serious, because it will make it dead. > > Agreed, but there is plenty of space between "dead serious" and > "whimsical". <Shrug> it's a matter of personal opinion, so let's not argue about that. The important question is: does that single menu item do any harm? > >> Should it get a better name? > > > > Do you have any suggestions? > > "Show Multilanguage Status" is already an improvement. Not really: it isn't correct English, for starters. We could use m17n, but I doubt that would be clearer. Our current stopgap is to tell more in the help-echo (which you for some reason ignore in your criticism). > >> 5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this > >> useful? I just get this cryptic message here: > >> > >> F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:] > > > > It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding, > > Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output). > > I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users > will. I don't understand almost any of it myself. For example, what > does "=:" mean? Do you understand those mnemonics on the mode line? Then why not here? And what does "default" mean? It means "default". Each coding-system has its default value and its current value. Cf buffer-file-coding-system and (default-value 'buffer-file-coding-system). > This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in > the help menu, to me. Power users sometimes need help, too. Of course, if you have a less cryptic way to say all that in a single line, I'm all ears.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#56508; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
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Content preview: <miha@HIDDEN> writes: > Perhaps we could replace it
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be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed.
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Content preview: <miha@HIDDEN> writes: > Perhaps we could replace it
with "Describe Coding System", that is, the > describe-current-coding-system
command, which shows an easier to > understand *Help* buffer. That would
be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed.
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<miha@HIDDEN> writes:
> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
> understand *Help* buffer.
That would be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#56508; Package emacs.
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To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
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<83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 10:26:56 +0200
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Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >>> 5. "Describe
Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this >>> useful? I just get
this cryptic message here: >>> >>> F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default
F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:] >> >> It's co [...]
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Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >>> 5. "Describe
Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this >>> useful? I just get
this cryptic message here: >>> >>> F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default
F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:] >> >> It's co [...]
Content analysis details: (2.1 points, 10.0 required)
pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
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-0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record
1.6 PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD Untrustworthy TLDs
[URI: kamnitnik.top (top)]
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0.5 FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD From abused NTLD
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manager
--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain
Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:
>>> 5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
>>> useful? I just get this cryptic message here:
>>>
>>> F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]
>>
>> It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding,
>> Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output).
>
> I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users
> will. I don't understand almost any of it myself. For example, what
> does "=:" mean? And what does "default" mean?
>
> This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in
> the help menu, to me.
Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
understand *Help* buffer.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#56508; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 03:16:09 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 11 23:16:09 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41381 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1oB6Nc-0004Dp-Ly for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 23:16:09 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f50.google.com ([209.85.216.50]:43754) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1oB6Na-0004Cz-Eb for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 23:16:07 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f50.google.com with SMTP id o5-20020a17090a3d4500b001ef76490983so6685581pjf.2 for <56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 20:16:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qcwcKlmSrKj6mFH/Md1YL8RNNPR2IcuVm5Vzp1Dk4z4=; b=SkDh+Mou7B87uR1UEnBcULzWD6K94ee4bqf/6fQmFeBEWNQ4xbv+MoqYc9JHl88xRJ V3Ki51dIWYk10s8AkwaE6XZKz0KfalBoM6bxs6ZW1AH93Sb4Den4GwIMvyxeLfLwh3/o KvK8MGOLH8qpzwdOzXziYRROLyHEuF0K+DNUE/LA80A8qKo16L3DJot5teeKo1lJ55lB +pHPZ+cz0wtLwW/af5wS3kum/paFt5WjshkuOkYuKHVGwx9btUh/FfsO8pLjXLAUwQWD 4cmusiFo2OWiPixPmG437fRuFA1adwa5ewVzsSwy3yM0JulqrdPZh8g6vmovV/A+j5ja UUGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora+X4JmR/U/q5LK9CMgKwooBPqCzsEVKMjJ3KePmXmgk7YEj4r4m YGoYq+HZDWJlPzhTMme9ginTce70YfKhkXLhZG0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1takL6ke4Bqs076aWcg6j7w1MiZ/Rk3werlP6mGCTapR8F24/vuSSArf7faJkBaMFG1vj43o21bx4CAsT8FMhA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4d8d:b0:1ef:e3a1:d1bd with SMTP id oj13-20020a17090b4d8d00b001efe3a1d1bdmr1730789pjb.175.1657595760821; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 20:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN> <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508 Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> >> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500 >> >> Suggestions for the "Help" menu: > > I object. We just reshuffled that menu recently, let's not touch it > for another major release or two. Sorry, I must have missed that we did that. In any case, I don't think that is very good grounds for not making further improvements. > Specific comments: > >> 1. Remove "Emacs FAQ". It is not nearly as up-to-date as the >> manual, and most users these days will either find it by other >> means or just search the web. > > So you are basically saying we don't need the FAQ? I'm saying that we don't need it in the menu (at least not in its current shape). >> 2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist". Sorry, but in terms of chatbots >> there are *way* better ones out there these days. If anything, >> move it to "Games". > > I object to making Emacs dead serious, because it will make it dead. Agreed, but there is plenty of space between "dead serious" and "whimsical". >> 3. Remove "Non(Warranty)" and "Getting New Versions" as it is >> already available under "About Emacs". > > These are politically motivated and cannot be removed. Too bad. >> 4. Under "Describe" we have the item "Show all of Mule Status" which >> is a rather hard-to-understand name. Does it need to be there? > > Yes. > >> Should it get a better name? > > Do you have any suggestions? "Show Multilanguage Status" is already an improvement. >> 5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this >> useful? I just get this cryptic message here: >> >> F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:] > > It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding, > Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output). I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users will. I don't understand almost any of it myself. For example, what does "=:" mean? And what does "default" mean? This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in the help menu, to me.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#56508; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 02:40:51 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 11 22:40:51 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41347 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1oB5pS-00036w-Ob for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:40:51 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56588) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oB5pP-00036i-Oy for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:40:48 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33620) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oB5pK-0007ym-EI; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:40:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=alRsJPnL1MhAPXWgrTD2ajTGuZu5Kz0+6FyDuypX5IU=; b=SqY7+EsWUsKX n/iHj7nzft6EAm9+r4TT8M1GeE+CF2cIWjgq/LWMG85zU3ya8WrQADzWbEQRMeYncuJUmKUCE0R0u WPSWuUpiMpqQUfOedMHBi85Qx6WZTJRdpTH/cOAJbkTeY4f0QPNAqUngQSyUvpK7mnOzHcm9MsIth FyUVGfR3VMQoDyia1RPd/YVAe6q6NK8JZty1vOnzOAevxPSa+3U5avqFuT2KsCeUcUb+yEOC5SENJ PjP/aW2pv5ncZcoMwwR1Iv8NJSWFk4SlyIM/uf+tpKFuGcuthz/7dZd3UaE3RW7dNgM7FUgmOCeEW eJJFVxZ8v0WVAYH9rSXP0A==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3639 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oB5pJ-0001br-Uk; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:40:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 05:40:30 +0300 Message-Id: <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Kangas on Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508 Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> > Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500 > > Suggestions for the "Help" menu: I object. We just reshuffled that menu recently, let's not touch it for another major release or two. Specific comments: > 1. Remove "Emacs FAQ". It is not nearly as up-to-date as the > manual, and most users these days will either find it by other > means or just search the web. So you are basically saying we don't need the FAQ? > 2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist". Sorry, but in terms of chatbots > there are *way* better ones out there these days. If anything, > move it to "Games". I object to making Emacs dead serious, because it will make it dead. > 3. Remove "Non(Warranty)" and "Getting New Versions" as it is > already available under "About Emacs". These are politically motivated and cannot be removed. > 4. Under "Describe" we have the item "Show all of Mule Status" which > is a rather hard-to-understand name. Does it need to be there? Yes. > Should it get a better name? Do you have any suggestions? > 5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this > useful? I just get this cryptic message here: > > F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:] It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding, Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output). > I believe the above changes would make the "Help" menu more useful and > less overwhelming. Too much choice simply makes it harder to navigate. I believe we should leave that menu alone.
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From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
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Content preview: Severity: wishlist Suggestions for the "Help" menu: 1. Remove
"Emacs FAQ". It is not nearly as up-to-date as the manual, and most users
these days will either find it by other means or just search the web.
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Severity: wishlist
Suggestions for the "Help" menu:
1. Remove "Emacs FAQ". It is not nearly as up-to-date as the
manual, and most users these days will either find it by other
means or just search the web.
2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist". Sorry, but in terms of chatbots
there are *way* better ones out there these days. If anything,
move it to "Games".
3. Remove "Non(Warranty)" and "Getting New Versions" as it is
already available under "About Emacs".
4. Under "Describe" we have the item "Show all of Mule Status" which
is a rather hard-to-understand name. Does it need to be there?
Should it get a better name?
5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
useful? I just get this cryptic message here:
F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]
I believe the above changes would make the "Help" menu more useful and
less overwhelming. Too much choice simply makes it harder to navigate.
Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#56508; Package emacs.
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