GNU bug report logs - #56508
Suggestions for the "Help" menu

Please note: This is a static page, with minimal formatting, updated once a day.
Click here to see this page with the latest information and nicer formatting.

Package: emacs; Severity: wishlist; Reported by: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>; dated Tue, 12 Jul 2022 02:06:01 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

Message received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 13:54:26 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 09:54:26 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42117 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oBGLK-0007TW-H8
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:54:26 -0400
Received: from mail-pj1-f46.google.com ([209.85.216.46]:38554)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1oBGLI-0007TJ-Nx
 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:54:25 -0400
Received: by mail-pj1-f46.google.com with SMTP id
 89-20020a17090a09e200b001ef7638e536so11463710pjo.3
 for <56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 06:54:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
 h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date
 :message-id:subject:to:cc;
 bh=A47MQjbIYAGvrjo6wnk5cKTwNDRPdaMAUeyQZrVqA+s=;
 b=g7eRHMh4qpiMEbjujRKBq/EK/doa2WDDL/nnTQVwFB+LighVclrhmoU8UAzwO97dyN
 PSzOCiv2aAp9W7gVMP8ckSt2uOQBOllHf7R7UBzYGPGkDFWlzsmfDdVxncQTKmhcw1Xn
 YkTpHvj1JM9MXwNRX+CSszfpC0CSt+Sdto+JNGReYm1NOnDPesBbTuKHKYDiTYlfa/gZ
 StpF3LH03mEAtkN2thJVQrONHcITja+ErSohdTuB7URmqQ685SBl5OK3BcXt4I5Ppcn3
 Kl7nFOZ7QvX1kX1cgBQl6QLnLO4YwuYd7knyYcmLA3aqZSSgT3uXn6Z16yfALnbw2HFf
 3fjQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora/vnULc9o9WS2Sji2HtQlj0tbMoT1KyOe42Bsfga3ZCv6H2znTk
 MVJ+LjZWFEYkhPqvfWA6+/Iwj3w8XOxwSTOwib0=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1vl2BnZa3oRdJ4IZR842Vr3Gajqz0UWPWNuhpfIrqtCXMwb0+RB//acJAKSz2WCqATl41u1cV/ddCOGa0IL/ME=
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:896:b0:1ef:935c:f326 with SMTP id
 bj22-20020a17090b089600b001ef935cf326mr4452398pjb.193.1657634058982; Tue, 12
 Jul 2022 06:54:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with
 HTTPREST; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:54:18 -0500
From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <877d4iwiyq.fsf@HIDDEN>
References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
 <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
 <83sfn6xzhf.fsf@HIDDEN> <877d4iwiyq.fsf@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:54:18 -0500
Message-ID: <CADwFkmkAyeFDTGC3xczCdeSBj-iwz69Q9XLraTw9hnraAF1SxA@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/)

Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes:

> Probably because help-echo is absent in NS on Emacs 28, which is what
> Stefan is presumably using.

(I actually use GNU/Linux, but I have a macOS laptop at work.)




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 13:37:21 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 09:37:21 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42013 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oBG4n-0004hP-7D
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:37:21 -0400
Received: from sonic309-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.146]:46409)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <luangruo@HIDDEN>) id 1oBG4l-0004hC-2W
 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:37:19 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048;
 t=1657633033; bh=OZhzDmKwJpjzeVEW75Lk3oAP42nHuxzrZVreQMFGNcY=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To;
 b=MqhCQyy4IcB0wTGfmY1Vn6J8G7i2+34BYK/B7/yxtyABHasKjwuDvlEK2aZizQxvV2NCitv0yw1qOefcbVNU2kqnAeHGhwHuiDUVFU7VvTd5Eu2uyuiMudx/6fwzXjxsGVQV5ZUzbK2Qonscq+DCHqZkAl9M1bEbtts+4lGXWfFRZmRc0d2FFqKn/V3lQCMW7lK5xfdFQQAaOGYmkCUBuDCh12Js9RuQwc2GPorRxckZ9hfG3Fj1ZC0W5I8uoRjBuQ0mnGxLwfXj09M7tgXCpJNPo0vhVkxHwW88uxiLC7BfpLMRw7lLZ8qSkYW7AV6LkSHuVjhauWz8QHIAptWdyQ==
X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048;
 t=1657633033; bh=sSp1og9nQk0M0LyzQ7Cs5Wr1Q8zhJr1SYOs5CNKr/wu=;
 h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject;
 b=WGYg/jPbOd4DdMqU+GhPyTWckhyUUqaKuACrEx4KJQiIOr6esqbq2Cma7TXJSmkakSYwmq0gX5WEqWIFzrtypxA+uGuW4sRYBnDgDoW3PG0Nx3gYS5FsiYOyWd5eUl5BvP1oOA7axdmVNxwxhGoF5p2O6nI0MXJHX3s/NNjcXOgfHgTeAEVWBYuzxo2wqrJPZw+ozQAOlgT04i5MllL+6sTJh5StZLOnPatgZnjaSYptB/TgeKSsnZ9ybjVrHEa2qW9t/dgtV6gu4P9dgyl8kLcWthYQj+F6b8ziTIX3f+W446YDRkiO7eL66nlKm5CLSg5JbUVUJ4n7WmuSsdUYpg==
X-YMail-OSG: BePgxUsVM1ny8J1dvYp0xbngqCODh2pDFX9IrFTbcW0DufneZT52s4gWHUXPf8c
 p_5iiKKFUkN37Ed4GlsuBYmttEglnTawcf1zIn560PvckezwF7T6EDVCvq6bRB.TNvEAg5bpcz.f
 l4hR8th2TI2TkTqoew2cqQ3m.6y06LRtHx6fumUuYx3SmTwYRWsNiEIfcII97R5kAlPUcgoCqpVY
 9DIkX6lUfuOh00HDyvGHDrYGOFkJiHdpxICsjykRg9ycjZO6HJFoCu75Z_muTuPNt9Wk8Z6xgzWt
 ceaEgKqUnJzF6DqDHNuQu_Y5ht53V58lB3jThCY2x.kD13wrW.GS9we6Ot1V4amoxOyZIZknsqbq
 dae2LZo5Wxo5UTRKs1xjP234YhAm3pARAVT2zj03cgIAneH7ZOgyAynZ2cqEhvlErbKxPmKltV_c
 FdsmYxivgw1znEaG44ZzjX8NasAY8vPop.vtudpqTwi4BG4DTmXB.ldmjmGTxU2Xq250bRG_Ts4Q
 Pt3Hk5xSf7c5MYFxXQkszPORvUAsv9cXSoC7fxvSHZfRBh4C0GBGAF_KJ7fFkfQTn5CTaekZqx2Q
 Yy7EDr6XrtmMPvTIoxZl4EVDeG2j5tLEFU8b4RN1lSYmCd7h2qDydQTn5Vu23b1Stzh4CeuJT4yP
 _YXQYlwhw3Kdg8amYmvNOLUFfQVwbYu.o7ny1g0CPLk08MwRdTdINL9o63S_9J7RpZgYTaDy22OX
 flzVtOhy_L19vSKD821u3mWrtZJgjvyVF21z6C6BXfiOVeJ7f7PKO41anc1ZTpmPj6l2fAPpyvsV
 FUDzfaUReyocutk15UbWGsaCpTCRHP8z9F5TGM90hPCL4joJDYgLuYh8oBq1pg4x0IMIrAI3NXtg
 KY8AqbOZs7nMlJuR8WmswPr8zC.mwBp32OzvsdIePOt8hdI1uuWNtk4WF6.bLh4_ujdCoZL0Cjbj
 akXWyen0ve92xZC9aPOKPPaqYGwaDHNyhR43bTdi5YoDGmWOHZwcGh6wxIL6wfdoCDLcy_vF.aO0
 wIQ28Ju7QgirMjSJjbV2iwDOId5CeL5l6Bzs6lPm0HGGqZxxd6M7tE8dmOUUs3IF08WTSMIDlPk6
 7cjcqIaMPpN4trZhWhtd7F8bDxitUQ.PCkdMiPRqYYTg_UoLY9PVsPbmZs1dwbPPifq0MvYdaEg.
 ojgq8HYa5WrQcSFJNMfpZuXAjQqjGV3q5zQXD1BMkZaLxgs7k0wgYUTF1J19ATX7s9oCMPyk__ql
 .lKROS6il360gJ1DPPkDDtlfD3ORnJGhLjng2o4Qm0FhncCesqgldQgBhz2AAHEcOydtnmZBRCHB
 yIJenThrRKFF0f.WqMTOILkpGU_dN2fscLeVExK.03gAvu__CGbKOec4wvwMAMXJhTx.E9ZWRal0
 UdS1hc_tB92xtbwpGV0SDs8ljlMn3pOLGhL9OvOiOQiiiyxFZ_pAPA9sOxPR.nbmsNClYDTE3dKw
 G9MFRYRreoEbyOqIfW5kYKL45tmWbU4GB1fjHJK47Q1SIH2ZGmD1HgckzY_iQ0_opBxbyF7UjwAz
 xvSSHAkribAsQF48u11BYAAh51mWZbE3wuFbIoPrbhAW14479SCzKtj1yfu4xydXLZ7y8ts52Ikz
 dIZbn2ht61X0ItU4JCWWCSMCY22qoU35KHdAyiAqKsfK4HsL9NCTexsupMQUl8vnL1Fi4k6hCj1e
 koC64nzVwxcNR3hYyLgquBQ0NoqwUB6vyY1yWu6yDqG1BL45wlVDcfwzNOoHwZ4pr0B60ItBEk8X
 gz6AYyjhikHCRiixO1x7MILSLqIoM0DbbAvy04Z_Wt1Zz.1_BqYP1M1pqEmbjK9e9RbAiwZPvf0F
 hp2LWH3mdA7rzB07Q8YYr2PdLbRz1B2eyqg1xpoPcGQtR.LF5sKnzM4oigCnRSousJNZMabc7B2c
 NgNrsyl9HwSyKP34Hxu9pvacC3BKEFcfvHZqj0UD92jTO_ZVNQoogluDVkBV7X2OQIK3eMS7NRra
 GFtlmvZ6ic7GGCRkPxEqbZGeqK4ZmxWMeo66xXvZ9AL3pkv_PoyDfrkSeTApBOcgXav2vHMZbgiW
 J78mzgLfxmW9a3jnwgua9kCz_DU5T9uf3rnQY96xsaTAs_OQJkGfaIRDdK_1PhaMeC6yHcK2NFSQ
 ALrsGNllrM4whCrqbHhap_BaQbzqFDEHi5KNYpEdIKetoxJudcWdVeMOskSE6IERGFwEGIyivvac
 nq4Z71EL3iYaL7JOQvjUkqUHPUI_VwHm8VXWifqyiiU3lnCnqaxeEXmBLtIRiZfey0cA-
X-Sonic-MF: <luangruo@HIDDEN>
Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by
 sonic309.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 13:37:13 +0000
Received: by hermes--canary-production-sg3-67975bbd4b-bp49d (Yahoo Inc. Hermes
 SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 56403a89125405b6b5d13f8be474cf97; 
 Tue, 12 Jul 2022 13:37:07 +0000 (UTC)
From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
 <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
 <83sfn6xzhf.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 21:37:01 +0800
In-Reply-To: <83sfn6xzhf.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 12 Jul
 2022 15:54:52 +0300")
Message-ID: <877d4iwiyq.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20407
 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo
Content-Length: 248
X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> Our current stopgap is to tell more in the help-echo (which you for
> some reason ignore in your criticism).

Probably because help-echo is absent in NS on Emacs 28, which is what
Stefan is presumably using.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 13:35:40 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 09:35:40 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42002 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oBG39-0004eN-Pq
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:35:39 -0400
Received: from sonic306-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.189.83]:45055)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <luangruo@HIDDEN>) id 1oBG37-0004e3-Sv
 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:35:38 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048;
 t=1657632932; bh=+Now7NaLB93k9m2oqJioOOG+dBOS9tP9Aj2QRB5n4jc=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To;
 b=M0ynPvBJ3VrpA28VKaA9KPIBZxfT/g/tNGOP5xJAbZin09iMQnh8r4i9Ovp2Baf9eRwthx4yuix/4+1RABvOBMCIbLq+LNEhfD+D1DDjRJYZy1/I1djFC1A/6UqN3qllW0L3kKvvzwnrRIj8ytbCUNDESXKLjlp92Mcv634lvevPGBUVjSS1XibQDWwh2ZgGyWDPPaZaCgpL7885UQHFHjUG9+dtyd58Sr5+bFyIw0d8m7EJ/+uXki/+3ySoMi69OR1GxvvoA1IWDPonEOWLWBXWFQqkh6BaukF/SGMW/8S1X0jDbG99Hq3j/aqI1gjjV6bfyT6wUbk7Nc0bS6OOJA==
X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048;
 t=1657632932; bh=BTWGhBHGAQe1vlhEzeJL8i0XSsFgjcYL3TICJOb6X3f=;
 h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject;
 b=QDBoan0km7ObgeLQQdXaBOv2gxccICwr1CngEARoXqiFTz96QK1FAOb0Q2QZjNCQwo+6CDmDTzBFQgW6MCGOeNHuzEtTd9AApU7LvcMtsUeoqEfIsZlJE+kdCcE5wEclKMXJeLVD9t8j/lPE+LjzR+ZLf83hKkgPA4CKBS2aaHcJZTriuY5d/UHHgct+XShaZ7fnDcUd/kiONBplRxCrBGIA2aGIKkgj8yickvps7ltj789e0rL136mJZ3OF5JKFYxo99Zf3Fk8c9RMHq3YTZQwrE0oVJNRrT/+mHF6u5b1LKz9NL7qvegzQxpRGIZEwhN2FKHc6mYTYpF52QezsGQ==
X-YMail-OSG: HNu56XUVM1lEDb1uuqkek0OKWiVx2CcClUbbJ8gI9SAz1UvyonF5QYZlq3yrIi6
 RiBn2Spcf.NzRHR2o0FXaP7lNJhegovXKpNV7i6d_FGP01nQLYahPTJyH59WDKFx8h13hSt1E59V
 _T6H8x9AbULHcwE5roMhFl_f6PpxAKqkN2QQ1PP3qybk6WPk98hacygPTYnbyBG0dFnMfmqSdtXj
 uz_CdM6SEku7iGGCvmf5jN202m4lAwcOZCGh4WHvnm3Pfsvf6Li6xfWpixKN7ScH_FIE4liMVswB
 QtxLhH_Ugng_v1m5_.Y1osO0_iXdsf7tvqkfmKYINHmdpv_wszGslXhhrsBT9i_6I43DnFjHbcYj
 cUUHt5KRzpW7gM8PKUtmu7iI6HVRYuS0zmXkguHgOgKduw93EXWJY1SRaALUtU_tdObyEDGDR4Nb
 1vT4Ja2Chhtttt3hr26G7IIbCecCAU.19X9hplBmqgJBs9bHvGuUXEJMJV4G_1PnOI8jCuf7ZO2A
 B5LEGKdYo_TSOX_qOpdAPEkLR39tFmNUQWT.X4S2afO9r8XT7H2QsHxaWtn7JUPxDoa_b9m6rtnl
 FZ_Ky5xhLpsxYyd3u_MdwxwKxtR4KQiZxJnzxhibU69I8Q5w85f78Q8Q_Wv2.Y28K90UgfSdAlOY
 SnQ8kBOs0MXxarIf03Sk5yvxPQKSKXnKldnOBMfoOwD6mhrfwBIzF3zcF6DqesFSei5fsKsaIou5
 z5Euw2bl7cWDYvM.M0hvxSF1eg6ufZm8nmgFjiLUhsnHugNlee6JI0oZn8JcBBXNABHbOpsl4LGs
 vX7nzF5q3vE1EvU.BuIfSpTRow7hnu6JBmopxl.tlQa15EN27azA5LuD8SwoBRyo2NRnfNO6Pw62
 beQAc4w5jRHkeiekl0WbOGqsAotiIVA89ku1w28t2_p.qV.pMMvDz9.baoQt6P4r93LvkLDo4KYb
 0Koe8ArHMJ.zIMzQtGBKhBFw34vnlrj.jnAY1I4XUcjS9muZKH_ZmIOF4HFtUiaAFgaEqDGPNKuo
 qznil4ZHJtaY25XMvNmMDU7HOGO0yX4bdW8NxRDZ5bWSf47UHphyQ67T4aPdyHxb0yPYp9YeZT7u
 z1jUQ0R4NHgd0AF41URGagm_Bw8IHKKfOq0qiE97iwFJ9X81WVn.Dfahh9h4SfuPKLSNZNYvxjz5
 E5RsarHiOVWHtP8MNAfj_KfDmXqCjztWGQ06jzdyFxr9h_tSUy.jQvVm.HvAD_FobxiyarsheMiV
 WPhrUT9WIVwZ5K9CuSOkCJBcm2p0sqMuO6BKhhSdYyz5NmnZPk0IOiNWN.fh2.RtZKcQ6KlCT.cV
 W4YM1VTpA.SOYJPXIdVy8ItJndQRWmA7ZK9h9ESuo5paidNVoBAiPYWuNIncfo.NHissWJOF92re
 h0YMUyyO1ErgvPkmO4vmjAboZQCIRqYd7JeakS0WqpEB_wk66NyfE36XzHmA77fQRKlqTWxe37p_
 kmhftm14wTtBDAbtFgVzbMERuW5Z7.iJm8Y5MPlftJadltbazem0AG5yXdzbL7qBIQkRJISNNMo2
 B3aoDClcKJYeKkXdhCsHuTrp0bSZPmP91Q8jj3oEkdS9cmfAAIk6MNcw5UyJBD74qJ4ZaGxdVCZS
 A3CDRxTFcZ3An5h.AbWc1QQLojn_fsG8qvHBC5wXUbEZhWQAdqzlC2FtuZVq_QhSc.shia._z.ZD
 6oFuA77beR7_hvzHnYbPzbSa40KsbWgnU0eZ8wBuZjBLXawmHx_fDOYcc48ZaS4dHBYlcT3DaVKL
 d9X3uHI67fsLCe9I12.p98pmRIF4KK2Vw_fepSqw8k2YnSuWHRwRPezSIB8ALYsrgA2wO8xBI3f6
 ntU4IYjaZc6SbhkYoXR_4mClc0VFZbUX8kPJyhfge2SGM0bN6lS6qJ35hU45q9C2UdMvpdCmb50u
 uuW09lHFwtgtmbpvRO.9TNLQVTQPFT8v1_ar8UQSsvn4yhCU1BW1Sjpe7O0quy2.Ak1C30lCA0nW
 NOEcot7i05j1Rm7y.LlWggXcBr1btgDdKMzbOM3t.8_2lqBdLkB27gzilK9sRUgOUFP_YUBhOwy3
 Gxg_yBET79GQ_C.uNuZ9dTd0IH1gI3lWgDY2Y54WayxUfeUfOZs6G4TpQkCAKa0_Chxfl2RY0LjB
 u0BqwGgPg7yiWWpqRSEgAxud_S7InHyRv0Z0_eXIHu8u_6RcyczDmpVuaPutTgHEuDKtJ7JmqH9r
 JJAvzWRPmsES7C0yI4ColfcN3OCUx78eFz55cLWX1loAQ4yd0je__2sFAU14f
X-Sonic-MF: <luangruo@HIDDEN>
Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by
 sonic306.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 13:35:32 +0000
Received: by hermes--canary-production-sg3-67975bbd4b-bp49d (Yahoo Inc. Hermes
 SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 113657c304281ec6c2a3c547766a8688; 
 Tue, 12 Jul 2022 13:35:25 +0000 (UTC)
From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
 <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 21:35:18 +0800
In-Reply-To: <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 12 Jul
 2022 05:40:30 +0300")
Message-ID: <87czeawj1l.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20407
 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo
Content-Length: 325
X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> I believe we should leave that menu alone.

I agree.  In fact, the current arrangement of the Help and Options menus
is also very useful for finding bugs in GUI code.  The development of
the Haiku port would not have been possible without the deeply nested
internationalization menus.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 13:31:53 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 09:31:53 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41988 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oBFzU-0004X8-V8
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:31:53 -0400
Received: from sonic314-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.189.146]:33412)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <luangruo@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFzU-0004Wp-7F
 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:31:52 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048;
 t=1657632706; bh=6LfDLKdAb5QYpFTSWx1uEqgHyG0/Efd7kVbB17bqgzo=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To;
 b=GUbO+0gdcDFT4WCg3yh5PJZXNl5eOWWOdbotxGsH1QJF3oB0DbB0ehEDwe8OKOSDNujOeFequiLNAjxczwBoPXJU2tIjB7tolicmsl842+0O71US+0kWMndYvxKcv6VOoeD5uVSYnN1Bsj2diBlStxFZFDxpDs8I7o2IFTG0UkKUnTBZgVyX1+6Cv02AGPE+OhjjITn0w56TgzRLQlYmR1Cay6VLRSDittctElEsAPW9GaL9VYcIH/1giiGYZfNjHMdnyaX2WpCkhsJVOTsKQkCbsZcXI5V5gw6go1RDRZAjwUWd++MLColvd2lW/Yk6eieEJgKOK+c0hPIxrDh/Cw==
X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048;
 t=1657632706; bh=PNa6ocnmimATaFmU/XOXXY4wqEvwnYO9JoNs7hYcHwi=;
 h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject;
 b=aAsXksgwhhgCs5YliaYHLwBnt/p4sukubGGPAawhJPVEAzWZfwa5dOkvvpGT9lhX2Ft3lhKM96uFjmjFGjF1GKNsGxHPkBlYlVMosDe3ddEn8p4BQlJz3RLpc4X0hu+x7Y75A//deKHEkCpqhzHjNCoimjQo1uK0jyUcAMt68gG8spJmcTPycecyFOQN2JF+3rmLH+42C8ZcK3oAkNyw1aUnzrMU4vtFx5gRokO3NopnzhtXSI8WTa8k8sCxGTGk36vvBTuSsCU/2ClBMDbkVk7RrZY5Meh7vUH5W/xsBxAgVaaV0dUremQ9J0SB93NIms9pXWI+rZU3qeexwpAs3g==
X-YMail-OSG: 3oF8kL8VM1mr1pUbTMiBBz5OHNT9CTfcgfvM74LhnG.zHXPeFbenVUnSWl3_SQC
 ZRdure8HMv7sPNt.Jrh5kKyafg65zaQYwiRKzj8abCARfLkcWjPBrnTX.CaDK1l.nFzkQZvniFNG
 NmmRbwJYC9HQYzIgDH2ObIU9calN_XFo7zFylGXcXVu9pSi3VEpRjI.t5HYizbt.OgBudmWV.JBw
 BsqLzJeDMByir7sqWj0aFjjiTPKJLpv2YzuDL1BUJqECrhnclLJ4t718SQye323oBaES3M9X_uKf
 rccuMvzLxGUmEWupiuVNTObbdm4rFerraPSv9PptFlVXv0w01EebDZyB2VlEJOCHkWw31.I8UZcq
 fCGyO0jadj2D.CNHtCdxvN1F6lOeczNz0E.YL84X5OKx3rkxHhT3laRXs6jMY9RR9Xnz5rZL8Jwf
 iLgKcq7Ou4didacTaCCKxUfbpmRsNF1RB7orP36DxN2k2FDpUYqMYoyhNvwAo6yrB0nsMKpRkbny
 jzfsGxDe9zUdw.q1bxdPxi1a636ELrBm4vHcgtYJVEJOO1c91YG3.TKzRdit1ranpt2l1GbcqbDW
 d2cqUvajf1NeNsPbo17HL1gQ.yNzxW7_EuLGm.qrr.Sf6GQwPf1_D9MF_hsg7sb5r_TyfnHwUHsR
 ZCMTld6ojsUtLDpU_I2uLhZTAzyBAPziAloqFsnZhBHlHez2igp.FYuFNf2nErpZpOCeLmZPOcrk
 Ap0ruqU0dsdXrlQkD1VBe5yi5SM9VXZAa3QSPv9tI2RmT6BkFsoplnUSLXYyi1bInv82q_GvVw4.
 p3mGDumt7iC.fTddLrns.b6Sn89XlUwNBMc_2gg9IQV6_YceTIMl.IhvyMjrE3cx3vecK8cVagmQ
 azCPYwwMKvGo0eq49pixd.hueXaB8RtpjbE5kjhfVAX_3Ltp6434TuaSCalJFvJNr8vHCb0E2zoS
 LqaJ5fVD2__lyHxmyu0mR2IrPkFWFaHiMAjpdYnQl.267bdaYPYS2Igp6ooDyG9gPkQUBLjktlea
 4zIXDNeNp7MsCUaLvtGwaj7itDqQYZXy9VfF9jHbY4sSesW37ndUuBenZxOzUgfh8gw9mysO_ktZ
 0r0aNY4mMYRVspwgO5Z3.ygraWo8RzGYhsAmi3CIdXEtBADf.qIvmTLvKXglF9dGMag_nBGKRKRC
 ljBs29vt.BMOH2zy3O.tvtKT1SBFzg0NpOL90wJEg.0raYlLmfruu9t_6CFsSRC_aLFrKjUIhxjm
 wbQw2eKH5k81GVW6klrlqmJqrhrY1DEvsPAWxRxKt79TPjt.XEABACbhgsa1n7MMsr2fS57Txr2c
 OyMAhK6703K2E3NAW1nEjeWPmYQscSymXRPRTlHXj5GZ7DkV7ooRRdCOtPaoqNsU.LjGbXYzRY0F
 fW8FJNUQeYIvfhuwgyo5U3.ob1uyFVSyuXj5SUSXz3JXEYaeoFZ16NXtxd1fZM_.vQYcVDaGFowC
 pvH8pRq.Ly72nXk9iPOnieWpoPddznSEtbfKCybOYMJGECOi_BpObRY9ywv8FtyxJevNmh5XrvQv
 Sj8pgbeuSqU8hxH98Od6a2gfPSRsYi0FonWKENGySrkAeyFmMQyK_GtD1s3VcNF7u6XulNKri0B6
 _KNWTmzCuMkAeSleNU9GJUu3s497Oq6DJQaF3oVCUYlftkMSdADF8RiMFeCRkO6I8nOTQpydArTL
 NtWUZtsSXI9GWRAjkukFeHF2qJccZw3ec6CJYAM6e0ziWOTnNO3YQzXMjE0D.c6ThW.L.Zi7SE2Z
 IwpFIqbtXhwb7sVVzAKqdNahvIskcBiGmhf0ekohgmf_jlEhqUS3URIiX8tHGayeExoIbO3hvBbU
 yDMpl1SnAlcRJJq2U3nAO5e6SXPgpp4ACk9qEqymv90WnkMBgptR49LhUjfsQUfwKZNotZHuBmiF
 stTEzUFKdiWazc7be4K.Nh.wcMg8aIgHAhz6IL6PmDx4NlYmkrIVjY1sziPBWGCt_WXA4fi6XwLB
 BSGGjYWREvB.z9dNukU40EUx6HWOXeEnLwV43xNG37lSnvGIGLtaGK0pYD7vIXWGYA0_fhZpkgMJ
 lZASnGrfZlseWfkPNelS1T9UoU6dvABGJ1Kz14PHTCfjhZyQEFd3B5vD7ylTGqribA5bQqXpp307
 LJJ3UsrI3XDG0ld_cRKPRJbl.tbqEQmpNfCX0CFWVMNUCQJUu0gNVnTMJ0lzS.PhN0NPBG.8wgKg
 FKw_Z7ip27F_9zmnndqvtUbKujz.Z5BiepkihWzwG8AwYxXGNpGWdE4NZ_5VH_oQ-
X-Sonic-MF: <luangruo@HIDDEN>
Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by
 sonic314.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 13:31:46 +0000
Received: by hermes--canary-production-sg3-67975bbd4b-hh5lh (Yahoo Inc. Hermes
 SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 9456b9962a9b0b435d7e07a239df6a7a; 
 Tue, 12 Jul 2022 13:31:44 +0000 (UTC)
From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
 <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
 <87tu7mspm7.fsf@miha-pc>
 <CADwFkmkru48RHOcaxnCuVeM2hi0z56-QOAh=1_QXqZgUiRhTDQ@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 21:31:38 +0800
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkru48RHOcaxnCuVeM2hi0z56-QOAh=1_QXqZgUiRhTDQ@HIDDEN>
 (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 12 Jul 2022 05:10:06 -0500")
Message-ID: <87k08iwj7p.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20407
 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo
Content-Length: 353
X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, miha@HIDDEN
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
>> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
>> understand *Help* buffer.
>
> That would be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed.

Why would we replace that with the item that is displayed above it?




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 13:16:23 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 09:16:23 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41943 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oBFkL-00038l-Lq
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:16:23 -0400
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47620)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFkJ-00031n-Rs
 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:16:12 -0400
Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41698)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1oBFkB-0005WI-Lu; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:16:04 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=e659HNtI6/KuuW3ZtAPlF5A3YWZ5zIUjPb3ZI7DJXVA=; b=TV4vpjcLx69H
 /0cQ59x1BpGGl3uYif0ruEvr21uwKxueErIV8ky0+0dV0RLaVtnNkxTFTuAlJHEHO7tksS1K6Wqtv
 l8HxJg6zdXwGtQLJnMnoiuiro8iPcdr7u0dZZsDvcUmYQk8fvDyae66oVW+nE8St8X0LtyieBBs5W
 0v8O4CX3JJwPVHQFCfe4QVth9QwXJLdkDzHt4WeQIZISkNdvPFYTMZklmG/ZwDFl5XBr1FLWXKexY
 O2qwi3AFkJt/poR7rF8kQSd48Z6xj75RbKN3bpNUuoypocdh3eXg2ASAvih1Q0v6b5f8yY5c2S4lI
 IQ9XUnJfSY3CMNr8fZp26g==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2515 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1oBFk9-0004Uq-RI; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:16:03 -0400
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 16:15:51 +0300
Message-Id: <83pmiaxyig.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: <miha@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87tu7mspm7.fsf@miha-pc>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
 <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
 <87tu7mspm7.fsf@miha-pc>
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@HIDDEN
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-)

> From: <miha@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 10:26:56 +0200
> 
> Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >>>     5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
> >>>        useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:
> >>>
> >>>        F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]
> >>
> >> It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding,
> >> Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output).
> >
> > I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users
> > will.  I don't understand almost any of it myself.  For example, what
> > does "=:" mean?  And what does "default" mean?
> >
> > This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in
> > the help menu, to me.
> 
> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
> understand *Help* buffer.

But we already have such an item in the same menu, just above the
offending one.  Why would we need to have it twice?




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 13:14:17 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 09:14:17 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41931 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oBFiT-0001rT-3Y
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:14:17 -0400
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37028)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFiS-0001rH-17
 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:14:16 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References:
 In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=Vdarko3y0vtTpg06KP8pesK7cPQ/qMnYryqfnKk+gN8=; b=O4WSoeITnPNZHLV/5RBKl7vKaR
 BryO5T+h36HkeAKzgk2Bd9pNQ1Wtr+csmG8r9ZTCNTVNhpk2NVD2KP5DNSv2aTYjSltl6ATOAPrPO
 MDq2+cuCjx4VfaAJmU4UBJSmPmUoFDTwSZ6SdVLEf4ZNY37rQwKI0wFUMVhubpa+u7UE=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1oBFiI-0007ff-Ij; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:14:09 +0200
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkru48RHOcaxnCuVeM2hi0z56-QOAh=1_QXqZgUiRhTDQ@HIDDEN>
 (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 12 Jul 2022 05:10:06 -0500")
References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
 <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
 <87tu7mspm7.fsf@miha-pc>
 <CADwFkmkru48RHOcaxnCuVeM2hi0z56-QOAh=1_QXqZgUiRhTDQ@HIDDEN>
X-Now-Playing: Anohni's _The Versions_: "Woman"
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:14:04 +0200
Message-ID: <87fsj6xylf.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >> Perhaps we could
 replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is,
 the >> describe-current-coding-system
 command, which shows an easier to >> understand *Help* buffer. > > That would
 be much more [...] 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, miha@HIDDEN
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
>> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
>> understand *Help* buffer.
>
> That would be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed.

Yes, I think that's a much better choice.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 12:55:44 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 08:55:44 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41889 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oBFQW-0001Jq-3M
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:44 -0400
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39946)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oBFQU-0001Jd-Pp
 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:43 -0400
Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41498)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1oBFQP-0002M7-Ef; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:37 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=lpPWmhSoIh30yP8W2Oq4JK7Q40P6Dx8n1T7YG08WWcw=; b=ScdxQmLx4Zcf
 sm6qFXQ7rfY/0XerYrydrS/7AzLHY+c2TOh+8V2fCet2JndVcYkUkG1SHXC/JJkGNy3bYTxqk7MKm
 ICqHz6AuYlmXfbcbzg/zGpY/e2qzRmNQvPY/jdndCfSNtSk5EvF81BsNTLDUd/eoSzYqrhaTlBNhu
 E1FfDN33+bE/gAOvyPZn0hBSE1HiINkmKemQtd1Z61qFxTU73MpvI8ZQEpmq8Csd5B5qyq9x6IcQm
 YqwiUu9fYK3ivmPDgukyFs/G6IJSjU2rRA8BYvXvbrEErHN4VY6TJss6mVPUEWxjgM/3UCJJl4lAD
 RO7aoXclV04IFXmNWgEsdA==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1239 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1oBFPq-0006vG-Uj; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:55:04 -0400
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:54:52 +0300
Message-Id: <83sfn6xzhf.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
 (message from Stefan Kangas on Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500)
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
 <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500
> Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
> >> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500
> >>
> >> Suggestions for the "Help" menu:
> >
> > I object.  We just reshuffled that menu recently, let's not touch it
> > for another major release or two.
> 
> Sorry, I must have missed that we did that.  In any case, I don't think
> that is very good grounds for not making further improvements.

Oh yes, it is: every significant change in the UI/UX means confusion
for users who are used to the previous one.  It is only kind to them
to let them some time to adapt.

> > Specific comments:
> >
> >>     1. Remove "Emacs FAQ".  It is not nearly as up-to-date as the
> >>        manual, and most users these days will either find it by other
> >>        means or just search the web.
> >
> > So you are basically saying we don't need the FAQ?
> 
> I'm saying that we don't need it in the menu (at least not in its
> current shape).

Many applications that are serious about their users have such a menu
item on the Help menu.  I see no reason why Emacs shouldn't.

> >>     2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist".  Sorry, but in terms of chatbots
> >>        there are *way* better ones out there these days.  If anything,
> >>        move it to "Games".
> >
> > I object to making Emacs dead serious, because it will make it dead.
> 
> Agreed, but there is plenty of space between "dead serious" and
> "whimsical".

<Shrug> it's a matter of personal opinion, so let's not argue about
that.  The important question is: does that single menu item do any
harm?

> >>        Should it get a better name?
> >
> > Do you have any suggestions?
> 
> "Show Multilanguage Status" is already an improvement.

Not really: it isn't correct English, for starters.

We could use m17n, but I doubt that would be clearer.

Our current stopgap is to tell more in the help-echo (which you for
some reason ignore in your criticism).

> >>     5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
> >>        useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:
> >>
> >>        F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]
> >
> > It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding,
> > Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output).
> 
> I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users
> will.  I don't understand almost any of it myself.  For example, what
> does "=:" mean?

Do you understand those mnemonics on the mode line?  Then why not
here?

And what does "default" mean?  It means "default".  Each coding-system
has its default value and its current value.  Cf
buffer-file-coding-system and (default-value 'buffer-file-coding-system).

> This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in
> the help menu, to me.

Power users sometimes need help, too.

Of course, if you have a less cryptic way to say all that in a single
line, I'm all ears.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 10:10:14 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 06:10:14 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41707 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oBCqL-0000hI-NR
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 06:10:13 -0400
Received: from mail-pj1-f54.google.com ([209.85.216.54]:39854)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1oBCqK-0000h2-Jh
 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 06:10:12 -0400
Received: by mail-pj1-f54.google.com with SMTP id
 v4-20020a17090abb8400b001ef966652a3so10914135pjr.4
 for <56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 03:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
 h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent
 :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc;
 bh=5B84nFW2ywdgHH6oRaJZj0gFF/Tfjz72wgoxcyqW/lw=;
 b=co8l2wTZL0UeO2kpPRSN/WDCzNmRpXZHoYpPPkReEz6oS5RXb4SRvl5jPULHrh8lNM
 Qxwk4im5WcQP1rj0vdkkX9dFW9g/iJFuNeoy8YEiKfIq2T9UApM252MKWejZzxGYk1yT
 GTB5ABTZfvbQ+1oJ1fWN7eg+SvLpOSPAvHfK5nEA+zamp2xF7gpXAXg4VQ+h3KQrDJt2
 FwvvOmex3+TU7fiO3N8kHa9zCjQf48KZ6IjC6TVZIj32fwz1zZ6X/4oYlXpGpMpIoZwW
 sWQprAojoHfO1UzIvYg5LxkDqO3HwW5t/MWSP6/HRznHsTYl/q83JgSE8Dt+jkIA3Unh
 L2Wg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora/imFBoIPbqmb+NY+wK9/uL3qbsmJ5H5o1oIeOuGyfE2nI4RD8F
 OSdiI6tf75RJpoqbE/D34HxDRlHSE7zAX/voha4=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1scCYag5Z3WY6C5QFH6LuQ7nkMnMnc3q3MvVvuyWQf0fRBTJSO3ztQ6HPAjiwJ39xL7qhNlYjESFO6QqnvDU9o=
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:896:b0:1ef:935c:f326 with SMTP id
 bj22-20020a17090b089600b001ef935cf326mr3322919pjb.193.1657620606687; Tue, 12
 Jul 2022 03:10:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with
 HTTPREST; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 05:10:06 -0500
From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87tu7mspm7.fsf@miha-pc> (miha@HIDDEN's message of "Tue,
 12 Jul 2022 10:26:56 +0200")
References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
 <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
 <87tu7mspm7.fsf@miha-pc>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 05:10:06 -0500
Message-ID: <CADwFkmkru48RHOcaxnCuVeM2hi0z56-QOAh=1_QXqZgUiRhTDQ@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
To: miha@HIDDEN
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++)
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 the administrator of that system for details.
 Content preview:  <miha@HIDDEN> writes: > Perhaps we could replace it
 with "Describe Coding System", that is, the > describe-current-coding-system
 command, which shows an easier to > understand *Help* buffer. That would
 be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed. 
 Content analysis details:   (2.1 points, 10.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 0.2 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level
 mail domains are different
 -0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE          SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record
 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM          Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail
 provider (stefankangas[at]gmail.com)
 1.6 PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD      Untrustworthy TLDs
 [URI: kamnitnik.top (top)]
 -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE     RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/,
 no trust [209.85.216.54 listed in list.dnswl.org]
 0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3      RBL: Good reputation (+3)
 [209.85.216.54 listed in wl.mailspike.net]
 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY      Informational: message has unparseable relay
 lines 0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL      Mailspike good senders
 0.2 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and
 EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different
 -0.0 T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE   No description available.
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+)
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 the administrator of that system for details.
 
 Content preview:  <miha@HIDDEN> writes: > Perhaps we could replace it
    with "Describe Coding System", that is, the > describe-current-coding-system
    command, which shows an easier to > understand *Help* buffer. That would
   be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed. 
 
 Content analysis details:   (1.1 points, 10.0 required)
 
  pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE     RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/,
                              no trust
                             [209.85.216.54 listed in list.dnswl.org]
  0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3      RBL: Good reputation (+3)
                             [209.85.216.54 listed in wl.mailspike.net]
  0.2 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level
                             mail domains are different
 -0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
  0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE          SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record
  0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM          Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail
                             provider (stefankangas[at]gmail.com)
  1.6 PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD      Untrustworthy TLDs
                             [URI: kamnitnik.top (top)]
  0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY      Informational: message has unparseable relay
                             lines
  0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL      Mailspike good senders
  0.2 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and
                             EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are
                             different
 -0.0 T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE   No description available.
 -1.0 MAILING_LIST_MULTI     Multiple indicators imply a widely-seen list
                             manager

<miha@HIDDEN> writes:

> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
> understand *Help* buffer.

That would be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 08:15:29 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 12 04:15:28 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41584 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oBB3I-00067c-OW
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 04:15:28 -0400
Received: from kamnitnik.top ([209.250.245.214]:37964)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <miha@HIDDEN>) id 1oBB3G-00067U-A4
 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 04:15:27 -0400
From: <miha@HIDDEN>
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kamnitnik.top;
 s=mail; t=1657613725;
 bh=VI07koh727cFBVbWBBdrfq8tpN8esOFcxCqeyURAeWw=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From;
 b=iruuInGJVSLsLqw0RouMZ9tZeFegQenhD3ItDqVd41b9X6ylrkb1Aw3UywF+fGYo8
 G0WLTnIs15eEC9y3sm/WY1hiqBFBs32ycA6SPiCj3fFFbWBwosu99ipcQ4mHNMg5uc
 GEBpBbZz18LfpmFOrOVEsBJGHpA+F+Z7g1e1jyQ/jSHWo7bYiY6psVGpLpcRi1P7QZ
 IvygaEAC66vrgwRbzMhgWmboxBtpfAq+jsVLhE9VCyVaUOHg+C2v1mNQ7/AG05mtqW
 R3IrWP9qJzIDTikeF8kenbaSQdsLNLliB7Fp4LbrMGvTEmGe60BZISUfIzfaTr6JzD
 qApnxWAQ1JRiQ==
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
 <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 10:26:56 +0200
Message-ID: <87tu7mspm7.fsf@miha-pc>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-=";
 micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"
X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++)
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 the administrator of that system for details.
 Content preview:  Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >>> 5. "Describe
 Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this >>> useful? I just get
 this cryptic message here: >>> >>> F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default
 F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:] >> >> It's co [...] 
 Content analysis details:   (2.1 points, 10.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS          SPF: HELO matches SPF record
 -0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
 1.6 PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD      Untrustworthy TLDs
 [URI: kamnitnik.top (top)]
 0.5 FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD   From abused NTLD
 -0.0 T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE   No description available.
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++)
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 the administrator of that system for details.
 
 Content preview:  Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >>> 5. "Describe
    Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this >>> useful? I just get
    this cryptic message here: >>> >>> F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default
    F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:] >> >> It's co [...] 
 
 Content analysis details:   (2.1 points, 10.0 required)
 
  pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS          SPF: HELO matches SPF record
 -0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
  1.6 PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD      Untrustworthy TLDs
                             [URI: kamnitnik.top (top)]
  1.0 BULK_RE_SUSP_NTLD      Precedence bulk and RE: from a suspicious TLD
  0.5 FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD   From abused NTLD
 -0.0 T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE   No description available.
 -1.0 MAILING_LIST_MULTI     Multiple indicators imply a widely-seen list
                             manager

--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:

>>>     5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
>>>        useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:
>>>
>>>        F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]
>>
>> It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding,
>> Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output).
>
> I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users
> will.  I don't understand almost any of it myself.  For example, what
> does "=:" mean?  And what does "default" mean?
>
> This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in
> the help menu, to me.

Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
understand *Help* buffer.

--=-=-=
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQJHBAEBCAAxFiEEmxVnesoT5rQXvVXnswkaGpIVmT8FAmLNMFATHG1paGFAa2Ft
bml0bmlrLnRvcAAKCRCzCRoakhWZP+kND/0U8kUZVfANYkGdq6+DjAj6otDtHZNc
GVxydS462mpNAzdOs/pszdM0UmWNaIIgAwvkRPz5m/cZZzDJpdIoBe0pph9wzLSp
EyB3uuOIaNRmUiQD0gXHcU2bMKi2JzFdbeaKYPEHLoTzy7vc1l5tdUxG8RKkA3NY
mjMZu0E9dd4zxspKR3IyFYXmAsprh04avtblBYmPy4EX/Oo4Trj6F/RK/tIFpvs9
XbHeUZ4jnf0ODsEIMHo9ajOe3Y4iT59P6o+7YAJR0/PWSV+sAwYmjTU2mlo3D8UU
yPeoDDzm3gFg7qLOZCLOpGMovAVXEWSKdSpThg4R6K1vAwDVje9es22FCd87XU5X
fatNPnWmLTI/39RIb6U7e8mzFKjkLDDrP9UvpHuwui67N8wTImXzviswmw0PqNJy
KwJ8Ra5ksRZskc9bCAEyR0aqJCL+6v5twYKHzpBnI9UWWZxsjxnOd1QNpu93aFl4
KMNbQU5d7Ym+0J3V90acs/guiVZefgTXZnW/JWu/lGXgxH1QkrBjdWJsW2oF03lD
yYEciruXgLHyBTBRhdLqIGpbvnEeKujN9pxk1L03Xn36hZwWpc+rTj2aZk6RLroB
EVW3bxhoNPg++nvAMzkvyYDFH4f7W7vAkyvWjjinZEfBdjfBH1y6KSEhbVZp9MYw
pjgvCeiwrQfVzg==
=+vuB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--=-=-=--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 03:16:09 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 11 23:16:09 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41381 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oB6Nc-0004Dp-Ly
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 23:16:09 -0400
Received: from mail-pj1-f50.google.com ([209.85.216.50]:43754)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1oB6Na-0004Cz-Eb
 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 23:16:07 -0400
Received: by mail-pj1-f50.google.com with SMTP id
 o5-20020a17090a3d4500b001ef76490983so6685581pjf.2
 for <56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 20:16:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
 h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date
 :message-id:subject:to:cc;
 bh=qcwcKlmSrKj6mFH/Md1YL8RNNPR2IcuVm5Vzp1Dk4z4=;
 b=SkDh+Mou7B87uR1UEnBcULzWD6K94ee4bqf/6fQmFeBEWNQ4xbv+MoqYc9JHl88xRJ
 V3Ki51dIWYk10s8AkwaE6XZKz0KfalBoM6bxs6ZW1AH93Sb4Den4GwIMvyxeLfLwh3/o
 KvK8MGOLH8qpzwdOzXziYRROLyHEuF0K+DNUE/LA80A8qKo16L3DJot5teeKo1lJ55lB
 +pHPZ+cz0wtLwW/af5wS3kum/paFt5WjshkuOkYuKHVGwx9btUh/FfsO8pLjXLAUwQWD
 4cmusiFo2OWiPixPmG437fRuFA1adwa5ewVzsSwy3yM0JulqrdPZh8g6vmovV/A+j5ja
 UUGw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora+X4JmR/U/q5LK9CMgKwooBPqCzsEVKMjJ3KePmXmgk7YEj4r4m
 YGoYq+HZDWJlPzhTMme9ginTce70YfKhkXLhZG0=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1takL6ke4Bqs076aWcg6j7w1MiZ/Rk3werlP6mGCTapR8F24/vuSSArf7faJkBaMFG1vj43o21bx4CAsT8FMhA=
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4d8d:b0:1ef:e3a1:d1bd with SMTP id
 oj13-20020a17090b4d8d00b001efe3a1d1bdmr1730789pjb.175.1657595760821; Mon, 11
 Jul 2022 20:16:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with
 HTTPREST; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500
From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
 <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500
Message-ID: <CADwFkmmzZ9uTNew+xSA74tqLJ90gn3Cp3R_WtXUyp1UznOs_7g@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/)

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500
>>
>> Suggestions for the "Help" menu:
>
> I object.  We just reshuffled that menu recently, let's not touch it
> for another major release or two.

Sorry, I must have missed that we did that.  In any case, I don't think
that is very good grounds for not making further improvements.

> Specific comments:
>
>>     1. Remove "Emacs FAQ".  It is not nearly as up-to-date as the
>>        manual, and most users these days will either find it by other
>>        means or just search the web.
>
> So you are basically saying we don't need the FAQ?

I'm saying that we don't need it in the menu (at least not in its
current shape).

>>     2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist".  Sorry, but in terms of chatbots
>>        there are *way* better ones out there these days.  If anything,
>>        move it to "Games".
>
> I object to making Emacs dead serious, because it will make it dead.

Agreed, but there is plenty of space between "dead serious" and
"whimsical".

>>     3. Remove "Non(Warranty)" and "Getting New Versions" as it is
>>        already available under "About Emacs".
>
> These are politically motivated and cannot be removed.

Too bad.

>>     4. Under "Describe" we have the item "Show all of Mule Status" which
>>        is a rather hard-to-understand name.  Does it need to be there?
>
> Yes.
>
>>        Should it get a better name?
>
> Do you have any suggestions?

"Show Multilanguage Status" is already an improvement.

>>     5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
>>        useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:
>>
>>        F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]
>
> It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding,
> Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output).

I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users
will.  I don't understand almost any of it myself.  For example, what
does "=:" mean?  And what does "default" mean?

This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in
the help menu, to me.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 56508) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 02:40:51 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 11 22:40:51 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41347 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oB5pS-00036w-Ob
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:40:51 -0400
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56588)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1oB5pP-00036i-Oy
 for 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:40:48 -0400
Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33620)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1oB5pK-0007ym-EI; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:40:42 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=alRsJPnL1MhAPXWgrTD2ajTGuZu5Kz0+6FyDuypX5IU=; b=SqY7+EsWUsKX
 n/iHj7nzft6EAm9+r4TT8M1GeE+CF2cIWjgq/LWMG85zU3ya8WrQADzWbEQRMeYncuJUmKUCE0R0u
 WPSWuUpiMpqQUfOedMHBi85Qx6WZTJRdpTH/cOAJbkTeY4f0QPNAqUngQSyUvpK7mnOzHcm9MsIth
 FyUVGfR3VMQoDyia1RPd/YVAe6q6NK8JZty1vOnzOAevxPSa+3U5avqFuT2KsCeUcUb+yEOC5SENJ
 PjP/aW2pv5ncZcoMwwR1Iv8NJSWFk4SlyIM/uf+tpKFuGcuthz/7dZd3UaE3RW7dNgM7FUgmOCeEW
 eJJFVxZ8v0WVAYH9rSXP0A==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3639 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1oB5pJ-0001br-Uk; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:40:42 -0400
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 05:40:30 +0300
Message-Id: <83wncjxdcx.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
 (message from Stefan Kangas on Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500)
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
References: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56508
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500
> 
> Suggestions for the "Help" menu:

I object.  We just reshuffled that menu recently, let's not touch it
for another major release or two.

Specific comments:

>     1. Remove "Emacs FAQ".  It is not nearly as up-to-date as the
>        manual, and most users these days will either find it by other
>        means or just search the web.

So you are basically saying we don't need the FAQ?

>     2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist".  Sorry, but in terms of chatbots
>        there are *way* better ones out there these days.  If anything,
>        move it to "Games".

I object to making Emacs dead serious, because it will make it dead.

>     3. Remove "Non(Warranty)" and "Getting New Versions" as it is
>        already available under "About Emacs".

These are politically motivated and cannot be removed.

>     4. Under "Describe" we have the item "Show all of Mule Status" which
>        is a rather hard-to-understand name.  Does it need to be there?

Yes.

>        Should it get a better name?

Do you have any suggestions?

>     5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
>        useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:
> 
>        F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]

It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding,
Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output).

> I believe the above changes would make the "Help" menu more useful and
> less overwhelming.  Too much choice simply makes it harder to navigate.

I believe we should leave that menu alone.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2022 02:05:16 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 11 22:05:15 2022
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41302 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1oB5H1-0002Be-LC
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:05:15 -0400
Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:59724)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1oB5Gl-0002AT-H9
 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:05:14 -0400
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35834)
 by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>)
 id 1oB5Gl-0005cU-Di
 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:04:59 -0400
Received: from mail-pf1-f174.google.com ([209.85.210.174]:38884)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>)
 id 1oB5Gg-0006OZ-Le
 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:04:59 -0400
Received: by mail-pf1-f174.google.com with SMTP id o12so6267787pfp.5
 for <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 19:04:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
 h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to;
 bh=OZT/kNrHb4K/HH88KYFUKrzSkCx8Ewmy6JwbATGZdF0=;
 b=0WVFYolv+VMK65MonpfBXWYuYpQdQn1Fzvw7je0gvwLYOnjxxh+gPhSt5NxQkohXmk
 D5cMqLyPcUrMOgZNHk7jsU8AjMn62f6tFNit0njs1ZJ8z2z8QujQM1UGCIJgp4rYNIpY
 hM001uzQUrGzIrYBUTmiUBunKkGQQYt72QjtTG5qQub5HIJQuFXxNrw/He6nARkEeyWT
 g64KDmDXcKkiKup32y/PhNnaeUCun0uAWGqCcqpnJxh0hmA3mFfPL2TNa1VHF+YlZwTH
 ZO7c0QJ7vVWJmnj+1Uw53PfqTGFKwd4QP3v2IPQgWY4JBPKLYimGo2brm6/o2DoYYjW4
 j+ZQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora9ab+LJHzadpd0U8drQUKnXT4VCf3Cb4vB/j4h/ShbmNm53OK8a
 wlWMoJMqA3f9QP8LLmuwIg3Ggvj0od4OwfAdubR3XBRQ
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1tKoU8wBIRZsLLi/EEg31Xo4t8vYR55A8Bu8YEQR/NHVgsqmTaQ/4dY/npx3+NsvONVYELNfXJRH7UYNp6+6IA=
X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8e17:0:b0:528:9f8d:ad38 with SMTP id
 c23-20020aa78e17000000b005289f8dad38mr21465590pfr.4.1657591493283; Mon, 11
 Jul 2022 19:04:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with
 HTTPREST; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500
From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500
Message-ID: <CADwFkmkm3vfwfFfEevKWqPYRHMLDZE31aLX89EDkSrGp1sESvw@HIDDEN>
Subject: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.210.174;
 envelope-from=stefankangas@HIDDEN; helo=mail-pf1-f174.google.com
X-Spam_score_int: -13
X-Spam_score: -1.4
X-Spam_bar: -
X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9,
 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001,
 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001,
 T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01,
 T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
X-Spam_action: no action
X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+)
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 the administrator of that system for details.
 Content preview: Severity: wishlist Suggestions for the "Help" menu: 1. Remove
 "Emacs FAQ". It is not nearly as up-to-date as the manual, and most users
 these days will either find it by other means or just search the web. 
 Content analysis details:   (1.5 points, 10.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 0.2 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level
 mail domains are different
 0.0 T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR   SPF: test of HELO record failed (temperror)
 1.0 SPF_SOFTFAIL           SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail)
 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM          Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail
 provider (stefankangas[at]gmail.com)
 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY      Informational: message has unparseable relay
 lines
 0.2 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and
 EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different
 -0.0 T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE   No description available.
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-)

Severity: wishlist

Suggestions for the "Help" menu:

    1. Remove "Emacs FAQ".  It is not nearly as up-to-date as the
       manual, and most users these days will either find it by other
       means or just search the web.

    2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist".  Sorry, but in terms of chatbots
       there are *way* better ones out there these days.  If anything,
       move it to "Games".

    3. Remove "Non(Warranty)" and "Getting New Versions" as it is
       already available under "About Emacs".

    4. Under "Describe" we have the item "Show all of Mule Status" which
       is a rather hard-to-understand name.  Does it need to be there?
       Should it get a better name?

    5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
       useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:

       F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]

I believe the above changes would make the "Help" menu more useful and
less overwhelming.  Too much choice simply makes it harder to navigate.




Acknowledgement sent to Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#56508; Package emacs. Full text available.
Please note: This is a static page, with minimal formatting, updated once a day.
Click here to see this page with the latest information and nicer formatting.
Last modified: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 14:00:02 UTC

GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.