GNU bug report logs - #56508
Suggestions for the "Help" menu

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500

Severity: wishlist

Suggestions for the "Help" menu:

    1. Remove "Emacs FAQ".  It is not nearly as up-to-date as the
       manual, and most users these days will either find it by other
       means or just search the web.

    2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist".  Sorry, but in terms of chatbots
       there are *way* better ones out there these days.  If anything,
       move it to "Games".

    3. Remove "Non(Warranty)" and "Getting New Versions" as it is
       already available under "About Emacs".

    4. Under "Describe" we have the item "Show all of Mule Status" which
       is a rather hard-to-understand name.  Does it need to be there?
       Should it get a better name?

    5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
       useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:

       F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]

I believe the above changes would make the "Help" menu more useful and
less overwhelming.  Too much choice simply makes it harder to navigate.

Message #8 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 05:40:30 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500
> 
> Suggestions for the "Help" menu:

I object.  We just reshuffled that menu recently, let's not touch it
for another major release or two.

Specific comments:

>     1. Remove "Emacs FAQ".  It is not nearly as up-to-date as the
>        manual, and most users these days will either find it by other
>        means or just search the web.

So you are basically saying we don't need the FAQ?

>     2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist".  Sorry, but in terms of chatbots
>        there are *way* better ones out there these days.  If anything,
>        move it to "Games".

I object to making Emacs dead serious, because it will make it dead.

>     3. Remove "Non(Warranty)" and "Getting New Versions" as it is
>        already available under "About Emacs".

These are politically motivated and cannot be removed.

>     4. Under "Describe" we have the item "Show all of Mule Status" which
>        is a rather hard-to-understand name.  Does it need to be there?

Yes.

>        Should it get a better name?

Do you have any suggestions?

>     5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
>        useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:
> 
>        F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]

It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding,
Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output).

> I believe the above changes would make the "Help" menu more useful and
> less overwhelming.  Too much choice simply makes it harder to navigate.

I believe we should leave that menu alone.

Message #11 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
>> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500
>>
>> Suggestions for the "Help" menu:
>
> I object.  We just reshuffled that menu recently, let's not touch it
> for another major release or two.

Sorry, I must have missed that we did that.  In any case, I don't think
that is very good grounds for not making further improvements.

> Specific comments:
>
>>     1. Remove "Emacs FAQ".  It is not nearly as up-to-date as the
>>        manual, and most users these days will either find it by other
>>        means or just search the web.
>
> So you are basically saying we don't need the FAQ?

I'm saying that we don't need it in the menu (at least not in its
current shape).

>>     2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist".  Sorry, but in terms of chatbots
>>        there are *way* better ones out there these days.  If anything,
>>        move it to "Games".
>
> I object to making Emacs dead serious, because it will make it dead.

Agreed, but there is plenty of space between "dead serious" and
"whimsical".

>>     3. Remove "Non(Warranty)" and "Getting New Versions" as it is
>>        already available under "About Emacs".
>
> These are politically motivated and cannot be removed.

Too bad.

>>     4. Under "Describe" we have the item "Show all of Mule Status" which
>>        is a rather hard-to-understand name.  Does it need to be there?
>
> Yes.
>
>>        Should it get a better name?
>
> Do you have any suggestions?

"Show Multilanguage Status" is already an improvement.

>>     5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
>>        useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:
>>
>>        F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]
>
> It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding,
> Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output).

I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users
will.  I don't understand almost any of it myself.  For example, what
does "=:" mean?  And what does "default" mean?

This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in
the help menu, to me.

Message #14 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: <miha <at> kamnitnik.top>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 10:26:56 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

>>>     5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
>>>        useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:
>>>
>>>        F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]
>>
>> It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding,
>> Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output).
>
> I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users
> will.  I don't understand almost any of it myself.  For example, what
> does "=:" mean?  And what does "default" mean?
>
> This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in
> the help menu, to me.

Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
understand *Help* buffer.

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Message #17 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: miha <at> kamnitnik.top
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 05:10:06 -0500

<miha <at> kamnitnik.top> writes:

> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
> understand *Help* buffer.

That would be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed.

Message #20 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:54:52 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 22:16:00 -0500
> Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> >> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:04:51 -0500
> >>
> >> Suggestions for the "Help" menu:
> >
> > I object.  We just reshuffled that menu recently, let's not touch it
> > for another major release or two.
> 
> Sorry, I must have missed that we did that.  In any case, I don't think
> that is very good grounds for not making further improvements.

Oh yes, it is: every significant change in the UI/UX means confusion
for users who are used to the previous one.  It is only kind to them
to let them some time to adapt.

> > Specific comments:
> >
> >>     1. Remove "Emacs FAQ".  It is not nearly as up-to-date as the
> >>        manual, and most users these days will either find it by other
> >>        means or just search the web.
> >
> > So you are basically saying we don't need the FAQ?
> 
> I'm saying that we don't need it in the menu (at least not in its
> current shape).

Many applications that are serious about their users have such a menu
item on the Help menu.  I see no reason why Emacs shouldn't.

> >>     2. Remove "Emacs Psychotherapist".  Sorry, but in terms of chatbots
> >>        there are *way* better ones out there these days.  If anything,
> >>        move it to "Games".
> >
> > I object to making Emacs dead serious, because it will make it dead.
> 
> Agreed, but there is plenty of space between "dead serious" and
> "whimsical".

<Shrug> it's a matter of personal opinion, so let's not argue about
that.  The important question is: does that single menu item do any
harm?

> >>        Should it get a better name?
> >
> > Do you have any suggestions?
> 
> "Show Multilanguage Status" is already an improvement.

Not really: it isn't correct English, for starters.

We could use m17n, but I doubt that would be clearer.

Our current stopgap is to tell more in the help-echo (which you for
some reason ignore in your criticism).

> >>     5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
> >>        useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:
> >>
> >>        F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]
> >
> > It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding,
> > Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output).
> 
> I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users
> will.  I don't understand almost any of it myself.  For example, what
> does "=:" mean?

Do you understand those mnemonics on the mode line?  Then why not
here?

And what does "default" mean?  It means "default".  Each coding-system
has its default value and its current value.  Cf
buffer-file-coding-system and (default-value 'buffer-file-coding-system).

> This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in
> the help menu, to me.

Power users sometimes need help, too.

Of course, if you have a less cryptic way to say all that in a single
line, I'm all ears.

Message #23 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, miha <at> kamnitnik.top
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:14:04 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

>> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
>> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
>> understand *Help* buffer.
>
> That would be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed.

Yes, I think that's a much better choice.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #26 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: <miha <at> kamnitnik.top>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 16:15:51 +0300

> From: <miha <at> kamnitnik.top>
> Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 10:26:56 +0200
> 
> Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:
> 
> >>>     5. "Describe Coding System Briefly" under "Describe" -- is this
> >>>        useful?  I just get this cryptic message here:
> >>>
> >>>        F[U:],K[U:],T[U:],P>[=:],P<[=:], default F[U:],P>[U:],P<[U:]
> >>
> >> It's completely understandable here: File encoding, Keyboard encoding,
> >> Terminal encoding, Process encoding (input and output).
> >
> > I don't doubt that you understand it, but I don't think many new users
> > will.  I don't understand almost any of it myself.  For example, what
> > does "=:" mean?  And what does "default" mean?
> >
> > This looks like a power-users tool, not like something that belongs in
> > the help menu, to me.
> 
> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
> understand *Help* buffer.

But we already have such an item in the same menu, just above the
offending one.  Why would we need to have it twice?

Message #29 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, miha <at> kamnitnik.top
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 21:31:38 +0800

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

>> Perhaps we could replace it with "Describe Coding System", that is, the
>> describe-current-coding-system command, which shows an easier to
>> understand *Help* buffer.
>
> That would be much more usable for a non-expert like me, indeed.

Why would we replace that with the item that is displayed above it?

Message #32 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 21:35:18 +0800

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I believe we should leave that menu alone.

I agree.  In fact, the current arrangement of the Help and Options menus
is also very useful for finding bugs in GUI code.  The development of
the Haiku port would not have been possible without the deeply nested
internationalization menus.

Message #35 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 21:37:01 +0800

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Our current stopgap is to tell more in the help-echo (which you for
> some reason ignore in your criticism).

Probably because help-echo is absent in NS on Emacs 28, which is what
Stefan is presumably using.

Message #38 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:54:18 -0500

Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com> writes:

> Probably because help-echo is absent in NS on Emacs 28, which is what
> Stefan is presumably using.

(I actually use GNU/Linux, but I have a macOS laptop at work.)

Message #41 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:04:53 -0500

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> <Shrug> it's a matter of personal opinion, so let's not argue about
> that.

Sure.

> The important question is: does that single menu item do any harm?

Not that one item in and of itself, no, but overall the "Help" menu does
feel overwhelming.  Anything we could remove from it would help, and to
my mind this is an obvious candidate.

> Our current stopgap is to tell more in the help-echo (which you for
> some reason ignore in your criticism).

The help-echo and the menu item text could just switch places, and it
would be an improvement, IMHO.

(FWIW, I couldn't find anything about "Mule" in the Emacs manual outside
of "ps-mule.el" and `(emacs) MS-DOS'.)

Message #44 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:21:38 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:04:53 -0500
> Cc: 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > <Shrug> it's a matter of personal opinion, so let's not argue about
> > that.
> 
> Sure.
> 
> > The important question is: does that single menu item do any harm?
> 
> Not that one item in and of itself, no, but overall the "Help" menu does
> feel overwhelming.  Anything we could remove from it would help, and to
> my mind this is an obvious candidate.

The Help menu is supposed to be overwhelming, and that is a Good Thing!

> > Our current stopgap is to tell more in the help-echo (which you for
> > some reason ignore in your criticism).
> 
> The help-echo and the menu item text could just switch places, and it
> would be an improvement, IMHO.

No, the help-echo text is too long for a menu item.  The challenge is
to come up with a shorter phrase that basically says the same.

> (FWIW, I couldn't find anything about "Mule" in the Emacs manual outside
> of "ps-mule.el" and `(emacs) MS-DOS'.)

There are hits in ELisp.

Message #47 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: "56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:20:01 +0000

> > This looks like a power-users tool, not like something
> > that belongs in the help menu, to me.
> 
> Power users sometimes need help, too.

Amen!
And every power user is also a novice in some areas.

The idea that menus - including a Help menu - are
only for novices is naive.

And it unnecessarily limits Emacs improvement and
user enjoyment, exploration, and learning.

Message #50 received at 56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <56508 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#56508: Suggestions for the "Help" menu
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:25:43 +0000

> overall the "Help" menu does feel overwhelming.

Some people find a table of contents or an index
overwhelming.  Others find them useful.

> Anything we could remove from it would help,

Why do you think so?

We could remove _everything_ from it.  Scrubbed
clean - spick & span.  Why would that help?

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