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Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables
are constant
To: rms@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
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Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes:
> defconst has had a subtle meaning: "It is ok to expect, in certain
> limited ways, that the value will not be altered." Nothing more.
To my mind, the meaning is not subtle. On the contrary, it is both
clear and well-documented.
The manual (info "(elisp) Defining Variables") explains:
[defconst] defines SYMBOL as a value and initializes it. It informs
a person reading your code that SYMBOL has a standard global value,
established here, that should not be changed by the user or by other
programs.
From where I'm standing, this means that there is no practical
difference between a defconst and a defvar that Lisp code can rely on.
So, to give a somewhat contrived example, you can still break any
mathematical calculation in Emacs with:
(setq float-pi 9)
The only way to not have your code break in the face of that is to
copy-paste the literal 3.141592... everywhere.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
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Content preview: > > And then, in a later Emacs version, we could start enforcing the > > constness in running code. > > defconst has had a subtle meaning: "It is ok to expect, in certain > limited ways, that the valu [...] Content analysis details: (1.3 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [205.220.177.32 listed in wl.mailspike.net] -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [205.220.177.32 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 2.0 URI_DOTEDU Has .edu URI X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58513 Cc: "psainty@HIDDEN" <psainty@HIDDEN>, "stefan@HIDDEN" <stefan@HIDDEN>, "monnier@HIDDEN" <monnier@HIDDEN>, "58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) PiAgID4gQW5kIHRoZW4sIGluIGEgbGF0ZXIgRW1hY3MgdmVyc2lvbiwgd2UgY291bGQgc3RhcnQg ZW5mb3JjaW5nIHRoZQ0KPiAgID4gY29uc3RuZXNzIGluIHJ1bm5pbmcgY29kZS4NCj4gDQo+IGRl ZmNvbnN0IGhhcyBoYWQgYSBzdWJ0bGUgbWVhbmluZzogIkl0IGlzIG9rIHRvIGV4cGVjdCwgaW4g Y2VydGFpbg0KPiBsaW1pdGVkIHdheXMsIHRoYXQgdGhlIHZhbHVlIHdpbGwgbm90IGJlIGFsdGVy ZWQuIiAgTm90aGluZyBtb3JlLg0KPiANCj4gVGhpcyBjaGFuZ2UgbWF5IHNlZW0gdG8gYmUgZml4 aW5nIGEgYnVnLCBidXQgc29tZSBvbGQgcHJvZ3JhbXMgdXNlZCB0bw0KPiB0YWtlIGFkdmFudGFn ZSBvZiB0aGUgYWN0dWFsIG9sZCBtZWFuaW5nLiAgVGhpcyBjaGFuZ2UgbWlnaHQgYnJlYWsNCj4g dGhlbS4NCj4gDQo+IEkgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBhc2tpbmcgZm9yIHRyb3VibGUsIGFu ZCB3ZSBoYXZlIGJldHRlciB0aGluZ3MgdG8NCj4gZG8gdGhhbiBkZWFsIHdpdGggdGhhdCB0cm91 YmxlLg0KDQorMS4NCl9fX19fDQoNCg0KRldJVywgQ29tbW9uIExpc3AgaGFzIGBkZWZjb25zdGFu dCc6DQoNCiJDb25zdGFudCBzeW1ib2xzIGRlZmluZWQgYnkgZGVmY29uc3RhbnQgYWxzbyBiZWNv bWUgcmVzZXJ2ZWQNCiBhbmQgbWF5IG5vdCBiZSBmdXJ0aGVyIGFzc2lnbmVkIHRvIG9yIGJvdW5k IChhbHRob3VnaCB0aGV5DQogbWF5IGJlIHJlZGVmaW5lZCwgaWYgbmVjZXNzYXJ5LCBieSB1c2lu ZyBkZWZjb25zdGFudCBhZ2FpbikuIg0KDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5jcy5jbXUuZWR1L0dyb3Vwcy9B SS9odG1sL2NsdGwvY2xtL25vZGU1OC5odG1sI1NFQ1RJT04wMDkxMjAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMA0K DQoiLi4uYXNzZXJ0IHRoYXQgdGhlIHZhbHVlIG9mIHRoZSB2YXJpYWJsZSBuYW1lIGlzIGZpeGVk IGFuZA0KIGRvZXMgbGljZW5zZSB0aGUgY29tcGlsZXIgdG8gYnVpbGQgYXNzdW1wdGlvbnMgYWJv dXQgdGhlDQogdmFsdWUgaW50byBwcm9ncmFtcyBiZWluZyBjb21waWxlZC4gKEhvd2V2ZXIsIGlm IHRoZSBjb21waWxlcg0KIGNob29zZXMgdG8gcmVwbGFjZSByZWZlcmVuY2VzIHRvIHRoZSBuYW1l IG9mIHRoZSBjb25zdGFudCBieQ0KIHRoZSB2YWx1ZSBvZiB0aGUgY29uc3RhbnQgaW4gY29kZSB0 byBiZSBjb21waWxlZCwgcGVyaGFwcyBpbg0KIG9yZGVyIHRvIGFsbG93IGZ1cnRoZXIgb3B0aW1p emF0aW9uLCB0aGUgY29tcGlsZXIgbXVzdCB0YWtlDQogY2FyZSB0aGF0IHN1Y2ggYGBjb3BpZXMn JyBhcHBlYXIgdG8gYmUgZXFsIHRvIHRoZSBvYmplY3QgdGhhdA0KIGlzIHRoZSBhY3R1YWwgdmFs dWUgb2YgdGhlIGNvbnN0YW50LiBGb3IgZXhhbXBsZSwgdGhlIGNvbXBpbGVyDQogbWF5IGZyZWVs eSBtYWtlIGNvcGllcyBvZiBudW1iZXJzIGJ1dCBtdXN0IGV4ZXJjaXNlIGNhcmUgd2hlbg0KIHRo ZSB2YWx1ZSBpcyBhIGxpc3QuKSINCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY3MuY211LmVkdS9Hcm91cHMvQUkv aHRtbC9jbHRsL2NsbS9ub2RlNjcuaHRtbCNTRUNUSU9OMDA5MzIwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDANCg0K
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 58513) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2022 20:52:06 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 16 16:52:06 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46369 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1okAcA-00068M-9V for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 16:52:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41586) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1okAc8-00067h-9i for 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 16:52:04 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55492) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1okAc1-0005Bu-L0; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 16:51:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=cDqKvzq1jjyuhstA/NEX0lc3mtX9tHOGeJkoJSqHu0A=; b=eRhwYSB6j4cq jAMM214VTV+nDWWbqVsIHNDLjzmUA6EKXOQ2FNpVVPtpqxhrsSCbRoiqrzCjhlwkoT+OzG/nTbdhY znklhA8zKRChVSatt4vtcJpql+n53/5TlxvzIWIK4UIdWEeGJVAahCG2eCdk9UizhSVNIetUQHdLp +CHauy8NqCJ0Pr12YlnVYakUFv2N7TzsU5rppUAkCJURqFDsR7YGb46USYkaOO18Fwi/TFvBuHXJ2 diBfN6523ozO2big/ilNYhJtVEZjywLz483UAqmD6rONirzAL7xDRfNN/NwW/f1TR0ShGx77tMW+u bBQSM87DFgFsmx7HjyMNTg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1okAc1-0002zQ-D6; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 16:51:57 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <875ygl5roe.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Sat, 15 Oct 2022 12:04:17 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables are constant References: <CADwFkmk7caBptdR45D0r1pjj-Htcs0Du_jfXOkrN1-EK5Tn0ew@HIDDEN> <87zgdy8ug8.fsf@HIDDEN> <8fae3292e6c1b175853b557060d05487@HIDDEN> <87v8om8tok.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=b6yAKMzP3jObF55qC810LTUpm2--hRRuJ5yVX3Rp_qA@HIDDEN> <87edva8seu.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvo7uepmag.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87sfjq7a91.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4jw6fjr5.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <875ygl5roe.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1okAc1-0002zQ-D6@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 16:51:57 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58513 Cc: psainty@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > And then, in a later Emacs version, we could start enforcing the > constness in running code. defconst has had a subtle meaning: "It is ok to expect, in certain limited ways, that the value will not be altered." Nothing more. This change may seem to be fixing a bug, but some old programs used to take advantage of the actual old meaning. This change might break them. I think that would be asking for trouble, and we have better things to do than deal with that trouble. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables
are constant
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnfLuEYVvwpVuWXAEiMpWknqxOz2suqcynW42wQzTULWA@HIDDEN>
(Stefan Kangas's message of "Sat, 15 Oct 2022 12:33:29 +0000")
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Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 10:11:35 -0400
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Stefan Kangas [2022-10-15 12:33:29] wrote:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:
>> The byte-compiler already does warn about it, but only if the assignment
>> is in the same file as the `defconst`.
> I don't get any warnings with this recipe:
>
> echo "(defconst foo-bar t) (setq foo-bar nil)" > /tmp/foo.el
> emacs -Q -batch -eval '(byte-compile-file "/tmp/foo.el")'
>
> Am I missing something?
Hmm... I don't get a warning either. And looking at `bytecomp.el` I see
that we push stuff to `byte-compile-const-variables` but we never look
stuff up in it :-(
I'm pretty sure I wrote some code to use that variable (apparently
around 2003), but apparently it got lost in subsequent changes, probably
when we introduced lexical-binding.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables
are constant
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>,
Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
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Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:
> The byte-compiler already does warn about it, but only if the assignment
> is in the same file as the `defconst`.
I don't get any warnings with this recipe:
echo "(defconst foo-bar t) (setq foo-bar nil)" > /tmp/foo.el
emacs -Q -batch -eval '(byte-compile-file "/tmp/foo.el")'
Am I missing something?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 58513) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Oct 2022 10:04:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 15 06:04:30 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39518 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1oje1u-0002PG-Ds for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 15 Oct 2022 06:04:30 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56036) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1oje1s-0002Oy-Mv for 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 15 Oct 2022 06:04:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=06b24jpI8QvCErf245/jVifvHeDFOR0nXg2yXOS8L5g=; b=K83mN40qZPNnbyKMyAA9xBhm+f m8R6+M9/NJlp4+JXeKP0HA9h6bXb+WI86cAF3bdwbwtlTCfi1Em7Tny4LeAyt83wHa9NdDiPlRtku mDGXV6fH0/p8iHCQfPFe9ptCZTAlH5EQfGTEJCXYKrqFzWWgNsd1lQbWlCDgwynV/hHk=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=downe) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1oje1j-0006ue-4o; Sat, 15 Oct 2022 12:04:21 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables are constant In-Reply-To: <jwv4jw6fjr5.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Fri, 14 Oct 2022 12:44:01 -0400") References: <CADwFkmk7caBptdR45D0r1pjj-Htcs0Du_jfXOkrN1-EK5Tn0ew@HIDDEN> <87zgdy8ug8.fsf@HIDDEN> <8fae3292e6c1b175853b557060d05487@HIDDEN> <87v8om8tok.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=b6yAKMzP3jObF55qC810LTUpm2--hRRuJ5yVX3Rp_qA@HIDDEN> <87edva8seu.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvo7uepmag.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87sfjq7a91.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4jw6fjr5.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEWpSz40JSiDjbz/ ///rtNpNAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+YKDwoAAv2DvjIAAAGgSURBVCjPNdDBatwwEAbg 32YFG59EkC49LhQ2fgq5dKHxSbtoBPEth0KjpzBLDyGnUupAc/IuMdjzlB05VL7Mx1gzowHg87f3 kOOgETam1husJAuz01bCCk0gRxutHXDqCxI4fSugd7XCZwTB0RmpkzEp8o/kSx7lt4mI7khju11h 6Z78tqoyDkSg02V77uFVtILYu7KHfTeWFAV8y/gpfWzR9sh3ghU0/nydgUGKkVKh5Iyc2dtQ5owN 9kB7Y8B7QAVzJGiDOQGHUDhBV891rqb6UE6J+QPPoVqYK4G0rzif6kUmoEOd47GUIeQ1a+Jr0TIW styxtC++MFjbFCUjUyXwQF13Zt4tlwimp/t0zlMWERd6uksuAyyglvtu2GTIptrUy/tGx3iW5X4S xOsvgSrcjbMUoRl/LDU3MkYynvGmqFlyR5I7Y0NX9rIukmqjt7cPg8Q58xhUXGOSQY+hiANP1L0y 43ugB5JpeZgZKU5HYin9d5exnJhfh8RvjPbIpuZhSrPceeHlR+JpkcUxfi95gcwrxs8fyAdLXLr/ +AcNOcONF1pRZwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMi0xMC0xNVQxMDowMDowMiswMDowMLDE cj4AAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjItMTAtMTVUMTA6MDA6MDIrMDA6MDDBmcqCAAAAAElF TkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Bill Callahan & Bonnie Prince Billy's _Blind Date Party (2)_: "Miracles" Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 12:04:17 +0200 Message-ID: <875ygl5roe.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > - since that new branch always signals an error (well, in my own code, > that is: I don't know what that branch would end up doing on `master` > where we'd want to be more careful about backward com [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58513 Cc: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > - since that new branch always signals an error (well, in my own code, > that is: I don't know what that branch would end up doing on `master` > where we'd want to be more careful about backward compatibility), it's > expected to be more-or-less never taken and even the most naive branch > predictors should handle it "perfectly". I see; that sounds good. So perhaps we should be moving in this direction, then. That is, start by making defconst mark the variables (perhaps in the way you've already implemented?), and then make byte-compilation warn about assigning to defconsts (and make describe-function expose the information, as requested). And then, in a later Emacs version, we could start enforcing the constness in running code.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables
are constant
In-Reply-To: <87sfjq7a91.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri,
14 Oct 2022 16:25:30 +0200")
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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 12:44:01 -0400
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Lars Ingebrigtsen [2022-10-14 16:25:30] wrote:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:
>> FWIW, my own local Emacs has `defconst` create actually
>> constant variables by adding a `SYMBOL_DEFCONST` to `enum
>> symbol_trapped_write`. Admittedly I didn't make them really constant:
>> I allow a subsequent `defconst` to change the value set by a previous
>> `defconst`, but `setq` signals an error just like it does if you try to
>> `setq` on `enable-multibyte-characters` or on `nil`.
>
> Hm... do you know if there's a performance impact from doing this?
In terms of memory use, we already use 2 bits for that `enum
symbol_trapped_write`, so adding a new value doesn't cost anything
at all.
In terms of run-time, it adds a 4th branch to a few 3-branch `switch`
statements, so it can have a performance impact, most importantly in
`set_internal`, I guess, but I'd be very surprised if it's ever not lost
in the noise:
- it only affects `setq` on global/dynamic vars which should be a small
fraction of the overall `setq` we perform nowadays.
- since that new branch always signals an error (well, in my own code,
that is: I don't know what that branch would end up doing on `master`
where we'd want to be more careful about backward compatibility), it's
expected to be more-or-less never taken and even the most naive branch
predictors should handle it "perfectly".
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 58513) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2022 14:25:44 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 14 10:25:44 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38270 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ojLdA-0005ED-06 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 10:25:44 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:47198) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1ojLd7-0005Dw-JK for 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 10:25:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=RMtDAYWhqdWcA3tcy1nBI7qyQAiEdahslO8iEwJT2kI=; b=uJp4Yp50TNv1SCPoHXx9TnozOH SJ+ZroYXpgVW9h3G7+LG1nQzJU+HuZ9PpQNf4O/i+YFa/4yfVGjQqAk7B1MaUlLs2Vqg/5TGnSEm3 UDk/PvlNyFP7XpuKK9XrhY6XojO8c+9SU3m+rg/K7w6vIMIdiXFe1HoPCmvTguCatwL0=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=downe) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1ojLcw-0006ic-Sy; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 16:25:33 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables are constant In-Reply-To: <jwvo7uepmag.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Fri, 14 Oct 2022 09:34:00 -0400") References: <CADwFkmk7caBptdR45D0r1pjj-Htcs0Du_jfXOkrN1-EK5Tn0ew@HIDDEN> <87zgdy8ug8.fsf@HIDDEN> <8fae3292e6c1b175853b557060d05487@HIDDEN> <87v8om8tok.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=b6yAKMzP3jObF55qC810LTUpm2--hRRuJ5yVX3Rp_qA@HIDDEN> <87edva8seu.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvo7uepmag.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> X-Now-Playing: Slammy Karugu's _L'Esprit de Nyege 2020_: "Incest and Meth" Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 16:25:30 +0200 Message-ID: <87sfjq7a91.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > FWIW, my own local Emacs has `defconst` create actually > constant variables by adding a `SYMBOL_DEFCONST` to `enum > symbol_trapped_write`. Admittedly I didn't make them really constant: > I allow [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58513 Cc: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > FWIW, my own local Emacs has `defconst` create actually > constant variables by adding a `SYMBOL_DEFCONST` to `enum > symbol_trapped_write`. Admittedly I didn't make them really constant: > I allow a subsequent `defconst` to change the value set by a previous > `defconst`, but `setq` signals an error just like it does if you try to > `setq` on `enable-multibyte-characters` or on `nil`. Hm... do you know if there's a performance impact from doing this?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables
are constant
In-Reply-To: <87edva8seu.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri,
14 Oct 2022 15:07:53 +0200")
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>> Yes, incurring a run-time cost doesn't sound worth it, but we could
>> perhaps make the byte-compiler warn about it.
The byte-compiler already does warn about it, but only if the assignment
is in the same file as the `defconst`.
FWIW, my own local Emacs has `defconst` create actually
constant variables by adding a `SYMBOL_DEFCONST` to `enum
symbol_trapped_write`. Admittedly I didn't make them really constant:
I allow a subsequent `defconst` to change the value set by a previous
`defconst`, but `setq` signals an error just like it does if you try to
`setq` on `enable-multibyte-characters` or on `nil`.
I didn't bother exporting this info to `describe-variable` (and the
byte-compiler) but it would be easy to do.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 58513) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2022 13:08:08 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 14 09:08:08 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36211 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ojKQ4-0002dL-ID for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 09:08:08 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:46530) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1ojKQ2-0002co-6u for 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 09:08:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=nP963nm8fwdLet12Rq1Ph+iHe8gJB+cL+kLTl+zNGI8=; b=d3OW/nBDcc5fqhucDHt6JMaGoC PQMlDw/sVdxJEFgpXfU7TMrnwGKxLKo4sLh/lhY0T76aUkKorevigq+vxgVHu5lhm/HsW+4IkUREj krGBicCy9iWu4j2dC1TtVSKWNJiEETwqtVAW5wojZ1Xi4psgK8VGCnrks4iPzn0tTgXQ=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=downe) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1ojKPs-00069w-FR; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 15:07:58 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables are constant In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=b6yAKMzP3jObF55qC810LTUpm2--hRRuJ5yVX3Rp_qA@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:03:10 -0500") References: <CADwFkmk7caBptdR45D0r1pjj-Htcs0Du_jfXOkrN1-EK5Tn0ew@HIDDEN> <87zgdy8ug8.fsf@HIDDEN> <8fae3292e6c1b175853b557060d05487@HIDDEN> <87v8om8tok.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=b6yAKMzP3jObF55qC810LTUpm2--hRRuJ5yVX3Rp_qA@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEWHX0hULyM/KiX/ //9fL2cNAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+YKDgsSKZC1OvMAAAHESURBVCjPRZFNi5MxEMen sivsbYU+4vbuwX6KIj4Fe9otm2DmpmyCM59CRBfsaZ/SBJNbpRM28ylND+LcfmTm/0IA/s8MzONm nM1nZ7iAITlrvM0PNwPCUMg8+Rgnf8uwcGQmN6Xt7Z3C8I5k8my3Zl3gta1fxePaxssN3CSKzafk 4p2FNyEcZDABx3kCw07MwihfzRFqRrd0vtDVYIHEOjbE7t5byPRwcsao+yQdrDSDVVO87JDijZ7n 0G9aOQwrMNpyf2kmv1wB6KnYDm9zWcEL1Zgs1LCPH/BYxEeEFEP8qR3QFhDTbNKqz2osPPv25aws 3BNEz6EQa0XCbkoa6VWpFBCapSptpjqGLsCjNr1m3mq/kaTarlGOaLtPZG23qNLjiFJRPW7USYBW nQh3eKQEUjf5sDyOumva11B+L08jIyNEJfq1fPKMFkEKmh8A5zwLUKz4DYbu5RYwZSLu4oq8hgmR XGu12B6nN9Srmu9abAtoEgUrOefdFvQjH4P6EvJ9gobGf871e2oX56CJQ+Y9y/o9TFR53cpeZAwQ T5HSWPY72fRfyNnI2iZWDJAbpt42yAEZel2XQkB3jwh/dKf/5i+i6AE30+DuCQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0 ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMi0xMC0xNFQxMToxODo0MSswMDowMKTBsXkAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5 ADIwMjItMTAtMTRUMTE6MTg6NDErMDA6MDDVnAnFAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Catudiosis's _L'Esprit de Nyege 2020_: "Kakoze" Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 15:07:53 +0200 Message-ID: <87edva8seu.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes: > Yes, incurring a run-time cost doesn't sound worth it, but we could > perhaps make the byte-compiler warn about it. Yes, that's true... Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58513 Cc: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes: > Yes, incurring a run-time cost doesn't sound worth it, but we could > perhaps make the byte-compiler warn about it. Yes, that's true... I'm bringing Stefan M into this thread; perhaps he has some opinions.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 58513) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2022 13:03:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 14 09:03:18 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36194 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ojKLN-0002Um-Nd for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 09:03:17 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f42.google.com ([209.85.160.42]:42597) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1ojKLM-0002UW-FR for 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 09:03:16 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f42.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1370acb6588so5732124fac.9 for <58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 06:03:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rDx2qS7ai49kkCaBx32t4XPjK1HcudziiBXyALNVekw=; b=nesOo3BOInRu6Mq9d5/NSNBHD9/z7BowkU1ahfYjj9IYEFLzxEe/5Ferlu2heJhaMr ypzSvrgT3mHb9wmd5easc8rIjtzGV+GSWAdl/a2cYBwT6m37WMhgyruXwKS7YkkzXq6M ULK1dgpvqUP/vi4M4KD343ePx3ivoTQc5zBf4ESRpvkNYp7uD/RbRxbwORIwwuHOdWA0 5WGAc/KomLQbaLr8yEPojuf7ew20KPZcw72FifDL4s4Rrd4cA0FOI4oao6GVULeqyJgo nSBGlWA8OaFTVP8R+RABGhrmGIXCEW9nXI7F1NyOLZW8SMAQm1CJ5jYQug/6M7BUKX1q RcMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rDx2qS7ai49kkCaBx32t4XPjK1HcudziiBXyALNVekw=; b=7guMI3HwJIfBtkp5qoZ/LsZqnscfrp5OYM/xxB2r+jTrQfJZa2oGX5uly5gdEDsUVr rbBTuky5cZvBVjoA29NazHhGWrAm2nmAlatFG7CFGVy+hSC8/nK2MVPiL12ElxL4dR3G WAg5CxQWeZoBD7mvuSS8bm6CFCI8C3ioESEGEwxxhOs5LRwSR2Vzuomk4SOdzWujJ2It D4rqmAZDuy70E4PwkfYGS+5Fv4Mz/+TcEs6xOxl41WXnvWP5HjCbYu03k7OybVyTMo8q p++Ng0VYM2CjCsQpRAWN20U6zjmswfPZ43rfykuAEdpM9RbCulGn/qEI54yYE4P7vhXG 5blA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf34YAOm+S8NEG6xtjXWgxBZpvHoODD2niXeQchLCpCc4aZcqnXQ Tg56Md8oCywCHb51xlguR9Sehie04sdEJ8j7KKYYQ7dV X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6OLng1gbgNbXv0JXaRB3sM7ojjP+NFZR14wuG0JWdFYAJuiFLTi1Amlyo0mg9oUp6wc2CJNQBkYfOTQt28yUk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9126:b0:132:b724:e96c with SMTP id o38-20020a056870912600b00132b724e96cmr8444123oae.199.1665752590647; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 06:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:03:10 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87v8om8tok.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <CADwFkmk7caBptdR45D0r1pjj-Htcs0Du_jfXOkrN1-EK5Tn0ew@HIDDEN> <87zgdy8ug8.fsf@HIDDEN> <8fae3292e6c1b175853b557060d05487@HIDDEN> <87v8om8tok.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221014:psainty@HIDDEN::MpKdKeQwlCelCNwu:5hgk MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:03:10 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkm=b6yAKMzP3jObF55qC810LTUpm2--hRRuJ5yVX3Rp_qA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables are constant To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58513 Cc: 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > And we could start adding a symbol property saying that a constant is > meant to be constant, and perhaps start warning if people change it, but > that would make things slower for basic things like `setq', so I'm > pretty sure it's not worth it. Yes, incurring a run-time cost doesn't sound worth it, but we could perhaps make the byte-compiler warn about it.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 58513) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2022 12:40:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 14 08:40:42 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36151 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ojJzV-0001pS-Or for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:40:41 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:46230) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1ojJzT-0001pF-Bm for 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:40:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=eQJuNs00PRn88hRvvxIGH6taoXpIpT4kXSR6ivobyLQ=; b=OTXOWk8HU2kBftH3joB4v4xQ7W rZEiDqXFIkXc1ViCrAOQIuCzEtlJWMICnoQ5F9xsfR4xfqCB4bAgg0ZOS4gD1wJrSTVQ7Sg6SRQ0B B2qReQHxJWSg7+G8OnKZemiOmDPZVsuFImN1Fm8yKESV9kpLXrAUQduhYzkrUZzebg30=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=downe) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1ojJzK-0005yU-03; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 14:40:32 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables are constant In-Reply-To: <8fae3292e6c1b175853b557060d05487@HIDDEN> (Phil Sainty's message of "Sat, 15 Oct 2022 01:35:41 +1300") References: <CADwFkmk7caBptdR45D0r1pjj-Htcs0Du_jfXOkrN1-EK5Tn0ew@HIDDEN> <87zgdy8ug8.fsf@HIDDEN> <8fae3292e6c1b175853b557060d05487@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEWHX0hULyM/KiX/ //9fL2cNAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+YKDgsSKZC1OvMAAAHESURBVCjPRZFNi5MxEMen sivsbYU+4vbuwX6KIj4Fe9otm2DmpmyCM59CRBfsaZ/SBJNbpRM28ylND+LcfmTm/0IA/s8MzONm nM1nZ7iAITlrvM0PNwPCUMg8+Rgnf8uwcGQmN6Xt7Z3C8I5k8my3Zl3gta1fxePaxssN3CSKzafk 4p2FNyEcZDABx3kCw07MwihfzRFqRrd0vtDVYIHEOjbE7t5byPRwcsao+yQdrDSDVVO87JDijZ7n 0G9aOQwrMNpyf2kmv1wB6KnYDm9zWcEL1Zgs1LCPH/BYxEeEFEP8qR3QFhDTbNKqz2osPPv25aws 3BNEz6EQa0XCbkoa6VWpFBCapSptpjqGLsCjNr1m3mq/kaTarlGOaLtPZG23qNLjiFJRPW7USYBW nQh3eKQEUjf5sDyOumva11B+L08jIyNEJfq1fPKMFkEKmh8A5zwLUKz4DYbu5RYwZSLu4oq8hgmR XGu12B6nN9Srmu9abAtoEgUrOefdFvQjH4P6EvJ9gobGf871e2oX56CJQ+Y9y/o9TFR53cpeZAwQ T5HSWPY72fRfyNnI2iZWDJAbpt42yAEZel2XQkB3jwh/dKf/5i+i6AE30+DuCQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0 ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMi0xMC0xNFQxMToxODo0MSswMDowMKTBsXkAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5 ADIwMjItMTAtMTRUMTE6MTg6NDErMDA6MDDVnAnFAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Jako Maron's _L'Esprit de Nyege 2020_: "Mde Prototrash Bobr" Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 14:40:27 +0200 Message-ID: <87v8om8tok.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> writes: > It does at least one thing different: if you load or eval a defconst > for a variable which already exists, the value is updated. Yes, that's true. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58513 Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> writes: > It does at least one thing different: if you load or eval a defconst > for a variable which already exists, the value is updated. Yes, that's true. And we could start adding a symbol property saying that a constant is meant to be constant, and perhaps start warning if people change it, but that would make things slower for basic things like `setq', so I'm pretty sure it's not worth it. We could use that property to make describe-function say that the variable isn't meant to be changed, though. But is it worth adding to the symbol plist just for that? Hm...
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 58513) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2022 12:35:48 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 14 08:35:48 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36130 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ojJum-0001gX-Id for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:35:48 -0400 Received: from smtp-2.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.43]:51757) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <psainty@HIDDEN>) id 1ojJuk-0001gN-2x for 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:35:46 -0400 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=38100 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-2.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <psainty@HIDDEN>) id 1ojJuf-0003MT-HQ; Sat, 15 Oct 2022 01:35:41 +1300 Received: from ip-116-251-140-135.kinect.net.nz ([116.251.140.135]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Sat, 15 Oct 2022 01:35:41 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 01:35:41 +1300 From: Phil Sainty <psainty@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables are constant In-Reply-To: <87zgdy8ug8.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <CADwFkmk7caBptdR45D0r1pjj-Htcs0Du_jfXOkrN1-EK5Tn0ew@HIDDEN> <87zgdy8ug8.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <8fae3292e6c1b175853b557060d05487@HIDDEN> X-Sender: psainty@HIDDEN User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58513 Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2022-10-15 01:23, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > I thought it was just syntactic sugar, saying what our intentions > for the variable is. Yes, I think "not intended to be modified" is the gist. Whether or not modifications would actually cause problems is unknown. > But it doesn't really... do anything It does at least one thing different: if you load or eval a defconst for a variable which already exists, the value is updated.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 58513) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2022 12:24:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 14 08:24:03 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36114 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ojJjO-0001M6-NE for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:24:02 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:46052) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1ojJjM-0001Lc-O3 for 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:24:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=EsHCven5NO6jjX2gMvGdoWda6bTVjtVqaJ5Qs9BIFHc=; b=FkM0zlMguVkws+maO+ZiBw31pU nt79b1AQmxXCpK+VVHksyZ18Dhjz9c6KxYdN1mmJbjt2Ma27S2WnfFxkN8trzdSm+VX9hTnmCEWhq Jnji2RGm36DFlXdWlxPcyPQbNe193ObsebWqHZEF52F/PwM6/5yICLM7f0etKesdvMqE=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=downe) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1ojJjE-0005qy-3a; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 14:23:54 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#58513: describe-function should say that defconst variables are constant In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmk7caBptdR45D0r1pjj-Htcs0Du_jfXOkrN1-EK5Tn0ew@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Fri, 14 Oct 2022 14:04:09 +0200") References: <CADwFkmk7caBptdR45D0r1pjj-Htcs0Du_jfXOkrN1-EK5Tn0ew@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEWHX0hULyM/KiX/ //9fL2cNAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+YKDgsSKZC1OvMAAAHESURBVCjPRZFNi5MxEMen sivsbYU+4vbuwX6KIj4Fe9otm2DmpmyCM59CRBfsaZ/SBJNbpRM28ylND+LcfmTm/0IA/s8MzONm nM1nZ7iAITlrvM0PNwPCUMg8+Rgnf8uwcGQmN6Xt7Z3C8I5k8my3Zl3gta1fxePaxssN3CSKzafk 4p2FNyEcZDABx3kCw07MwihfzRFqRrd0vtDVYIHEOjbE7t5byPRwcsao+yQdrDSDVVO87JDijZ7n 0G9aOQwrMNpyf2kmv1wB6KnYDm9zWcEL1Zgs1LCPH/BYxEeEFEP8qR3QFhDTbNKqz2osPPv25aws 3BNEz6EQa0XCbkoa6VWpFBCapSptpjqGLsCjNr1m3mq/kaTarlGOaLtPZG23qNLjiFJRPW7USYBW nQh3eKQEUjf5sDyOumva11B+L08jIyNEJfq1fPKMFkEKmh8A5zwLUKz4DYbu5RYwZSLu4oq8hgmR XGu12B6nN9Srmu9abAtoEgUrOefdFvQjH4P6EvJ9gobGf871e2oX56CJQ+Y9y/o9TFR53cpeZAwQ T5HSWPY72fRfyNnI2iZWDJAbpt42yAEZel2XQkB3jwh/dKf/5i+i6AE30+DuCQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0 ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMi0xMC0xNFQxMToxODo0MSswMDowMKTBsXkAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5 ADIwMjItMTAtMTRUMTE6MTg6NDErMDA6MDDVnAnFAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: EQ WHY's _L'Esprit de Nyege 2020_: "Ride" Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 14:23:51 +0200 Message-ID: <87zgdy8ug8.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes: > Evaluate this: > > (prog1 (defconst foo "bar" "help") (describe-variable 'foo)) > > How about adding a note to the help page of variables declared with > defconst saying that they are constants, or [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58513 Cc: 58513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes: > Evaluate this: > > (prog1 (defconst foo "bar" "help") (describe-variable 'foo)) > > How about adding a note to the help page of variables declared with > defconst saying that they are constants, or something to that effect? I don't think we know that it's supposed to be constant? Or do we, somehow? I thought it was just syntactic sugar, saying what our intentions for the variable is. But it doesn't really... do anything, so we'd have to start to keep track of which variables are really "constants". Which would then be confusing, because you can change values to these as with any other variable.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
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Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#58513; Package emacs.
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