GNU logs - #59099, boring messages

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Subject: bug#59099: 3-rd party aux files.
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Hi,

I have several project using autoconf/automake. I also have several
helper scripts I use in all my makefiles. If I made any improvement in
one of these scripts, I have to copy that script to all my projects. It
is quite inconvenient and error-prone.

I think it would be nice if automake handles my helper scripts like
install-sh, missing, test-driver and other automake aux files. In such
a case all I need is just run

automake -af

to get helper scripts updated.

The only problem is that automake searches for missed aux files in the
*single* directory, /usr/share/automake-1.16 (*). If I use 

automake -af --libdir=$HOME/aux

it breaks automake (it can't find other files, e.g. am/header-vars.am).

So, my question: Is there any way to provide 3-rd party aux files?

---
(*) Putting my aux files to /usr/share/automake-1.16 is obviously a bad
idea. Even if I create package (rpm/deb/whatever else), it will depend
on automake version, so I will have to create almost identical packages
for automake 1.16, 1.15, ...

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From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Van de Bugger <van.de.bugger@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#59099: Acknowledgement (3-rd party aux files.)
Message-ID: <handler.59099.B.166780955425540.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
References: <9ec7c3e2dd374b115685fbd88107b16d98afc039.camel@HIDDEN>
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Reply-To: 59099 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2022 08:26:02 +0000

Thank you for filing a new bug report with debbugs.gnu.org.

This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message
has been received.

Your message is being forwarded to the package maintainers and other
interested parties for their attention; they will reply in due course.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 help-debbugs@HIDDEN

If you wish to submit further information on this problem, please
send it to 59099 <at> debbugs.gnu.org.

Please do not send mail to help-debbugs@HIDDEN unless you wish
to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

--=20
59099: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D59099
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reassign 59099 automake

Message sent to bug-automake@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#59099: 3-rd party aux files.
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Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 16:37:42 -0700
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Hi Van - first, I've copied your messages to the bug tracker, so please
use bug-automake@HIDDEN and the given subject line so things stay in
the bug going forward.
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=59099
(Except my resend of your reply didn't get attached. I don't know why
not. Will try to figure that out. For the record, your msg is here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/automake/2022-11/msg00001.html
)

    I am not sure which interface to choose for the new feature. I see
    few possible approaches:

Your summary is admirable :).  I think we should have Jim and/or other
more experienced Automakers weigh in before you start coding. But here
are my comments.

    Disadvantage is that both directories are
    not writable by non-privileged user.

Since the purpose of the new feature is to support per-project helper
files (right?), a single system directory doesn't seem right. Let's not
mess around with system directories if we can help it.

    2. Let automake maintain the *list* of directories to be searched for
    aux files. 

Sounds right.

    In such case, the --libdir  option (and the AUTOMAKE_LIBDIRS
    environment variable) will insert the given directory to the beginning
    (or to the end?) of the list. Multiple --libdir options are allowed.

I like the idea in general.

    Is there any existing code relying on the fact that automake ignores
    standard directory if the --libdir option is specified? 

The answer to the question "does anything depend on X", for any Automake
(or Autoconf) behavior X, is yes.  So I think we must not change
existing behavior of --libdir or AUTOMAKE_LIBDIR. Instead, we can add to it.

What comes to mind follows your typo above :) ... have a new
option/envvar --libdirs/AUTOMAKE_LIBDIRS which maintains an independent
list of directories to search. I think the new dirs should be searched
after the libdir/AUTOMAKE_LIBDIR directory.

I think the list of dirs should be searched in the order specified:
--libdirs foo --libdirs bar would search foo then bar.

As with --libdir/AUTOMAKE_LIBDIR, if --libdirs is specified, it would
override (completely) AUTOMAKE_LIBDIRS. No such "extra" directories
would be searched by default.

Does that reasonably solve your original request?

    Also, it is not clear to me, should it affect searching for *.am
    files or not.

For consistency, I think the new searching should look for the same
files as the existing searching. Presumably that will be
easiest/cleanest to implement, too.

In general, the closer the new behavior is to the existing, the easier I
think it will be to understand (and implement and document).

Wdyt? --thanks, karl.

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> If you, or anyone, can draft a patch, that would be great.

I think I could draft a patch, but I am not sure which interface to
choose for the new feature. I see few possible approaches:


1. Let automake look for aux files in *two* directories:
/usr/share/automake-1.16 and /usr/share/automake. In such case, the --
libdir option (and/or the AUTOMAKE_LIBDIR environment variable) will
replace the first dir (versioned one), the second dir (unversioned one)
is always searched for aux files.

This option looks good because automake uses similar approach when
searching for *.m4 files: it searches in /usr/share/aclocal-1.16 first,
then in /usr/share/aclocal. Disadvantage is that both directories are
not writable by non-privileged user.


2. Let automake maintain the *list* of directories to be searched for
aux files. In such case, the --libdir  option (and the AUTOMAKE_LIBDIRS
environment variable) will insert the given directory to the beginning
(or to the end?) of the list. Multiple --libdir options are allowed.

Such approach looks good because non-privileged user can specify his
own aux directory. However, I worry about backward compatibility. Is
there any existing code relying on the fact that automake ignores
standard directory if the --libdir option is specified? It seems the --
libdir option is rarely used (manual states it is used primarily for
debugging), but I am not sure.


3. A combination of 1 and 2 is also possible. automake can maintain the
list of directories to be searched, which is initialized to
(/usr/share/automake-1.16, /usr/share/automake). The first directory
contains files provided by automake, the second — system-wide third-
party files, while non-privileged user is able to specify personal
directory in addition to system-wide directories either by the --libdir
option or by the AUTOMAKE_LIBDIRS environment variable.


Also, it is not clear to me, should it affect searching for *.am files
or not.

Any comments?


> ...my automake time is woefully scarce at the moment :(.

Not a problem, there is no hurry.

Thanks.

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> Since the purpose of the new feature is to support per-project helper
> files (right?), a single system directory doesn't seem right. Let's
> not mess around with system directories if we can help it.

Not exactly. Truly per-project helper files is *not* a problem =E2=80=94 th=
ey
can  be stored in the project, and so, do not require any support from
autotools. The problem if the same helper files are shared, i. e. used
in more than one project.

Also, I often pack my own scripts/programs/whatever-else (which can be
used, at least potentially, by others) to RPM packages, so I would like
to have system directory for them.

At the same time, user-writable directory is also wanted, if helper
files are not yet packed, or for test/debug purposes.

> In general, the closer the new behavior is to the existing, the=C2=A0
> easier I think it will be to understand (and implement and document).

That's right. So I am not going to invent something new. Instead, I am
thinking about copying existing aclocal behavior: it already have all
the required pieces, documented, and in use for a long time:

1. Default directory for automake-provided files: /usr/share/aclocal-
VERSION.
2. It can be overridden by the ACLOCAL_AUTOMAKE_DIR env var.
3. It can be overridden by the --automake-acdir command line option.
4. Default directory for third-party system-wide files:
/usr/share/aclocal.
5. It can be overridden by the --system-acdir command line option.
6. Extra directories can be specified with "dirlist" file in the
directory for third-party system-wide files.
7. Extra directories can be specified by the -I command line option.
8. Extra directories can be specified by the ACLOCAL_PATH env var.
9. There is a mechanism to version aclocal files by using "#serial"
comment.

(The only thing I do not like is "dirlist" file. As described in the
Automake manual, this file is intended to be edited by system
administrator. In such a case, the proper location for the file would
be /etc directory, not /usr/share/aclocal.)

So, my draft proposal looks like:

1. A directory for automake-provided files: /usr/share/automake-VERSION
=E2=80=94 already in place.
2. It can be overridden by the AUTOMAKE_LIBDIR env var =E2=80=94 already in
place.
3. It can be overridden by the --libdir option =E2=80=94 already in place.
4. A directory for third-party system-wide files =E2=80=94 to do. Directory
will be, obviously, /usr/share/automake (non-versioned).
5. An option to override it =E2=80=94 to do. --system-libdir?
6. Extra directories with "dirlist" =E2=80=94 to do.
7. An option for extra directories -- to do. -I?
8. An env var for extra directories -- to to. AUTOMAKE_PATH?
9. "#serial" comment =E2=80=94 to do.

Env var/option names could be more uniform, but backward compatibility
limits it.

> I think we should have Jim and/or other more experienced Automakers
> weigh in before you start coding. But here are my comments.

How to get it?

Message sent to bug-automake@HIDDEN:

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    The problem if the same helper files are shared, i. e. used
    in more than one project.

Ack.

    thinking about copying existing aclocal behavior: 

Interesting and thorough, but I admit aclocal doesn't seem like a good
model to me. aclocal has to do complicated things because it is merging
individual macros into a single file, but what you need is simply a
system-wide directory to store new files, that don't exist
elsewhere. In general, simpler changes are better, for myriad reasons.

Automake already has --libdir/AUTOMAKE_LIBDIR to find library files. So
inventing a whole parallel mechanism seems like it would result in
confusion/clashes. Hence my idea of a new option+envvar
--libdirs/AUTOMAKE_LIBDIRS, essentially extending the automake libdir
into being a path. That still seems like a relatively straightforward
and sufficient solution, as I understand it. Wdyt?

I'm not sure about adding a default directory. /etc/automake comes to
mind, for the reasons you gave about the dirlist file, but I wonder if
distros already use /etc/automake for something or another. I don't know.

    4. A directory for third-party system-wide files — to
    do. Directory will be, obviously, /usr/share/automake (non-versioned).

/usr/share/automake was used by automake before the invention of
/usr/share/automake-VERSION. I don't know if anyone is still using those
(quite) old automake versions, but could be. Seems too confusing to
reuse it, in any case.

    6. Extra directories with "dirlist" — to do.

I wouldn't worry about anything like the dirlist file. There are enough
ways to set the directory.

    9. "#serial" comment — to do.

I also don't think there's a need to support a serial comment, because
automake doesn't do any such checking now for files in libdir. They are
just unconditionally used/copied. As far as I know. --best, karl.

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> Interesting and thorough, but I admit aclocal doesn't seem like
> a good model to me.

It could be not the best approach, but definitely good enough, since
(1) it is already exists, and (2) it is already exists in automake
(aclocal is a part of automake).

> aclocal has to do complicated things because it is merging
> individual macros into a single file=E2=80=A6

In my eyes the difference is rather small. Both aclocal and automake
look for components in a number of sources and add them to the
projects. Whether it will be a single file aclocal.m4 or few files in
aux directory is a technical detail and does not really matter.

> Automake already has --libdir/AUTOMAKE_LIBDIR to find library
> files. So inventing a whole parallel mechanism seems like it
> would result in confusion/clashes.

W-w-w-wait a minute. I do **not** invent a new **parallel** mechanism,
a want to **extend** **existing** one by **reusing** **another**
**existing** mechanism.=C2=A0

I did not study aclocal and automake source code, so I do not know how
easy to actually reuse aclocal code in automake; but it seems it is
possible since both tools are written in Perl. In any case, logically I
want reuse aclocal search algorithm in automake, I do not invent
anything new.

> Hence my idea of a new option+envvar --libdirs/AUTOMAKE_LIBDIRS=E2=80=A6

Are --libdirs/AUTOMAKE_LIBDIRS exact names? I do not like them, because
you are going to keep --libdir/AUTOMAKE_LIBDIR for backward
compatibility. --libdir is too similar to --libdirs: one letter
difference in spelling, but the difference in behavior is striking. It
will be too easy to make a mistake.

> /usr/share/automake was used by automake before the invention
> of /usr/share/automake-VERSION. I don't know if anyone is still
> using those (quite) old automake versions, but could be.

Even so, I do not think it is an issue. Up to now, there is no 3-rd
party aux files. Automake documentation can list all existing aux files
(only 14 files) and indicate that these names are reserved. Future
automake aux files can be prefixed with am- or am_ to avoid clashes
with third-party aux files.

> I wouldn't worry about anything like the dirlist file. There
> are enough ways to set the directory.

dirlist file is documented, and documentations provide quite good
reasoning for it. In case of copying aclocal searching algorithm, I see
no reason to exclude dirlist.

> I also don't think there's a need to support a serial
> comment, because automake doesn't do any such checking now for
> files in libdir.

Up to now, all the aux files are coming from the same source =E2=80=94 they=
 are
provided by automake, so there is no need in versioning. But allowing
third-party aux files changes it.

Also, in case of copying aclocal searching algorithm, I see no reason
to exclude file versioning.

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severity 59099 wishlist
thankyou

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