Received: (at 59609) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Sep 2023 11:57:00 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 08 07:57:00 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42435 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qea6e-0008O3-9e for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 07:57:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41360) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1qea6b-0008No-Mc for 59609 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 07:56:58 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1qea6U-0006DK-0d; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 07:56:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=RzYz0JN1rn1BPJDknVi9NmgRlhFLlOXGa7cPlgV0n9A=; b=rwKmejj5XWI2 ItTr12ZkwTJVVRc98DYJ50IX/iJqex+99LMLGVX1MBS0wfyyMLQnR9NFTF0TC34o17c8KgD1f3MrS dS+K9woawRpBrbghml8/Mx1M0GDeTLygpOTNGSOrkPh7yVh2PpJEcyyyPKr/ALZ18afMQPsOyN4TP wz/4i6WsQFnagCkUPg3PUYtwDdh/m9PLpFINY/54DJpGJlPrfhF8ypIRrZ+Z+Woq0UxOwWFiz/T2G UHnMdwnIZjlq0Ch6+kfTv7N7+lvcuzcmQ6q1QyP8wMDbbLc0lGUE5Y4Pa7kRKqoksI6asanlcGbUO ccS5SNvyuh/Wqbubtunc+g==; Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 14:56:34 +0300 Message-Id: <831qf8yj2l.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmny5XWbg=jkEzQ3LPGCx5NU+XvTMXiNQYSVfxHmRfAQyw@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 8 Sep 2023 04:25:54 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#59609: 29.0.50; [PATCH] Better advertise (Non-)GNU ELPA in emacs manual References: <CADwFkmm=rhOPR9HSneDA_rW+XucKP9jskU+Hdm5YO0X+qaxCbA@HIDDEN> <83pmd9ssp7.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmny5XWbg=jkEzQ3LPGCx5NU+XvTMXiNQYSVfxHmRfAQyw@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59609 Cc: 59609 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> > Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2023 04:25:54 -0700 > Cc: 59609 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > This sounds OK, but begs the question: what's short description of NonGNU > > ELPA? Since we describe GNU ELPA, let's also describe the other one. The > > purpose should IMO be to explain to the reader, or at least hint why we > > maintain two separate archives. > > What do you think of the below? It's a good starting point, but the copyright assignment issue is not the only issue (not even the main one, from my POV). The main issue with NonGNU ELPA, IMO, is that packages there don't necessarily adhere to the Emacs coding conventions, are not supervised by the Emacs maintainers, and do not have to coordinate their development decisions with the Emacs team. So their integration into Emacs could be less seamless than that of packages from GNU ELPA.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#59609; Package emacs.
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2022 16:20:36 +0200")
References: <CADwFkmm=rhOPR9HSneDA_rW+XucKP9jskU+Hdm5YO0X+qaxCbA@HIDDEN>
<83pmd9ssp7.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#59609: 29.0.50; [PATCH] Better advertise (Non-)GNU ELPA in
emacs manual
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> This sounds OK, but begs the question: what's short description of NonGNU
> ELPA? Since we describe GNU ELPA, let's also describe the other one. The
> purpose should IMO be to explain to the reader, or at least hint why we
> maintain two separate archives.
What do you think of the below?
diff --git a/doc/emacs/package.texi b/doc/emacs/package.texi
index cdfb45d2042..3ac7dc83a60 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/package.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/package.texi
@@ -38,9 +38,17 @@ Packages
By default, Emacs downloads packages from GNU ELPA
(@url{https://elpa.gnu.org/}), a package archive maintained by the
Emacs developers and hosted by the GNU project. It also downloads
-packages from NonGNU ELPA (@url{https://elpa.nongnu.org/}).
-Optionally, you can also download packages from archives maintained by
-third parties. @xref{Package Installation}.
+packages from NonGNU ELPA
+(@url{https://elpa.nongnu.org/}).@footnote{GNU ELPA contains GNU
+packages that are available for use with Emacs, but are distributed
+separately from Emacs itself, for reasons of space. NonGNU ELPA
+contains a selection of third-party packages that can not be included
+in GNU ELPA because their copyright has not yet been assigned to the
+Free Software Foundation. For more information, see
+@uref{https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html, Why the FSF Gets
+Copyright Assignments from Contributors}.} Optionally, you can also
+download packages from archives maintained by third parties.
+@xref{Package Installation}.
For information about turning an Emacs Lisp program into an
installable package, @xref{Packaging,,,elisp, The Emacs Lisp Reference
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#59609; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 59609) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Dec 2022 22:20:56 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 14 17:20:55 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41951 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1p5a7T-0001Ox-IT for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:20:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47342) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1p5a7R-0001Or-Em for 59609 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:20:53 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1p5a7L-0003Ry-HV; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:20:47 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=dXnLixyzTGWjtVHAf2qE5HFpjh4Ec4w5+O7Xz5Akgis=; b=KZ8vYsD1VJYv tXUpZgvZCkej1BD+wAnsrBe0Q43rYUwxDPSrLab3k6M8++FwINxgfF5296pIyQ4QT3ukFj2/UrBNU FdxpBv9yPxC6C06sOMMqiaf708dJl5I7+dZSdmYctFClHkCul+VS61GMPDVZ22zeo/nFLUjkDPczF SnRYJTR/Z84Ooh9bBr5uqa0etCmYUpNUJ3hyrTnyVlrsOochMGdTrMXs+Pty3a5idwMpfA/FCRekd 8A+23RDXSgjzHQsi2Ea4Aszrb3A9EPbNr7GY9BPmPiOxUT5OkPwAqbW4a6wCwsz38WzsSJ4UxME/S fcGGo73ds8v/ELHvxEM0cg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1p5a7K-0003xf-5n; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:20:46 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkWX8fuTemPV2FxYQd4HVNOuiA5043pkk46Z=6u3muLmg@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Kangas on Sat, 3 Dec 2022 16:00:41 -0800) Subject: Re: bug#59609: 29.0.50; [PATCH] Better advertise (Non-)GNU ELPA in emacs manual References: <CADwFkmm=rhOPR9HSneDA_rW+XucKP9jskU+Hdm5YO0X+qaxCbA@HIDDEN> <E1p0Wu6-0000em-KG@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkiCnPLAURRMsaFt830LxGNhN4oSJe+28tjc=7sQP873w@HIDDEN> <E1p1c7K-00051h-Rk@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkWX8fuTemPV2FxYQd4HVNOuiA5043pkk46Z=6u3muLmg@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1p5a7K-0003xf-5n@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:20:46 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59609 Cc: 59609 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I was asked this very specific question as part of a discussion of the difference between NonGNU ELPA and GNU ELPA: > > > I see no risk that the packages will suddenly go away. Under what > > > circumstances would that happen? > > Here is how I responded to that one question: > > Here are two ways I can envision. > > > > If somehow the developers are no longer working on it in a way > > we can use. > > > > If it rots and needs substantial change and the developers > > are not interested in doing that. You replied to that response, taking that question out of context: > I'm positive that these things can and will happen, but that's true also > for GNU ELPA and parts of Emacs itself (see lisp/obsolete/*.el). That is true, but because it out of context, it appears to have implications which it does not have. When packages in the Emacs core go unmaintained, but they are still useful, we roll up our sleeves and maintain them. And we will try to do that for GNU ELPA too, because they too are part of Emacs. The point is that NonGNU ELPA packages have lower priority, so if they become unmaintained, we might rather delete them than fix them. Obsolete packages are a different thing. We mark a package obsolete when we think it is _better_ not to maintain it much. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#59609; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 59609) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Dec 2022 00:00:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 03 19:00:50 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54057 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1p1cR8-0003eb-9z for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Dec 2022 19:00:50 -0500 Received: from mail-oa1-f48.google.com ([209.85.160.48]:42846) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1p1cR6-0003eV-7P for 59609 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Dec 2022 19:00:48 -0500 Received: by mail-oa1-f48.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-142b72a728fso9494585fac.9 for <59609 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 03 Dec 2022 16:00:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=EFJIXULXCEHHfYK8VDnM+/rsfgMTjpGHeY21izGVmSY=; b=dgteTZx0SNCU4VM1LjpFjAwKLj0o5Vlf8/Kr+A64IOGMC5g5j0s37FsxCBik5KZuTP bPS+cZePOLKLY2Qi4GgyfEpK/bkp/Ec4uuaI/wF+SuOdzyxiqyIFs7zldlbf7vHKKKfr pf/7iPB1X/meijHCl18mUKll7WnAnCOLIrGcRuNj6v908C8vldiiRB2Gd3vk8CdsABwh 2dtd8D9McOvgFocW+qKfsQzsCNKaUdjV4g2ZRJuT4HQwEbVaZF4q+myNVNssTaYRPrke lMTNdQIaUBaIPjWmudkgxjXsla3yYWMgHjXPVBUWLI0GPnhntmUEN+Cqrci1gaQW6qJZ QtHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=EFJIXULXCEHHfYK8VDnM+/rsfgMTjpGHeY21izGVmSY=; b=xZpjoINwfOaEAvUkO53qm4u+b5hejnWYp8h1GdlJxtc7isRGMzPiwKZ7+uFF4pELQ1 bNvUeCWnBMKrhyCjssUdFD3VaO7bNeFeDk9S3zaU9o6J81FwRVjBnSHTIgI6aepj5DyB VH8ekwcr/zY74HtQHiOMPOqi4TK2HeKEieA/fYDv1OEyO49ymGX+cYayfv9W8ynHhbHY LrcqTR8V5+wn7FM1juV5wU9YpK/l6ltMd8oDCmwGa6Ws9GR3XXHd9TnfarHLP6ZN+I8B fAzwgI6w7sEsSvuorH/CoaoiLMUHEH5M71yT7mrzulKwfPk1CMMqimOi+MucGesRo/mp xj7g== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5plXgpMQP0jAnNyjiwqBdCwqKnEAxTCdvvmxyV7RuH+d/7opkuma 9CAbzsZjINbG27Xv6gzgMK+OxyTJ3wNU5gGEGI0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf5/EptfTfCqIyNC/eVJoT2Y31R4fUbSofVF1B70SpCH22bBhbwlVw5omch0bD47pRqy7OWgRgoyl7TVs0KU90A= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:4995:b0:143:522a:ebcc with SMTP id ho21-20020a056870499500b00143522aebccmr26421160oab.199.1670112042493; Sat, 03 Dec 2022 16:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 3 Dec 2022 16:00:41 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <E1p1c7K-00051h-Rk@HIDDEN> References: <CADwFkmm=rhOPR9HSneDA_rW+XucKP9jskU+Hdm5YO0X+qaxCbA@HIDDEN> <E1p0Wu6-0000em-KG@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkiCnPLAURRMsaFt830LxGNhN4oSJe+28tjc=7sQP873w@HIDDEN> <E1p1c7K-00051h-Rk@HIDDEN> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221203:rms@HIDDEN::MxJfkfxJ+DUHp7gE:535n MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 16:00:41 -0800 Message-ID: <CADwFkmkWX8fuTemPV2FxYQd4HVNOuiA5043pkk46Z=6u3muLmg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#59609: 29.0.50; [PATCH] Better advertise (Non-)GNU ELPA in emacs manual To: rms@HIDDEN Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59609 Cc: 59609 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes: > > I see no risk that the packages will suddenly go away. Under what > > circumstances would that happen? > > Here are two ways I can envision. > > If somehow the developers are no longer working on it in a way > we can use. > > If it rots and needs substantial change and the developers > are not interested in doing that. I'm positive that these things can and will happen, but that's true also for GNU ELPA and parts of Emacs itself (see lisp/obsolete/*.el). Or indeed with any software. I'm not sure why this would need pointing out specifically in the case of NonGNU ELPA. Software dies at times. C'est la vie. > > But I don't see > > why we need to get into all that in this section, where we are just > > letting people know that GNU ELPA and NonGNU ELPA exist. > > It's about two lines -- not enough to qualify as "all that". I was thinking more about the concept than the amount of text. It suggests that this concern is somehow specific to NonGNU ELPA. FWIW, I believe the number of packages I've been using that have stopped "being present" in my two decades or so with Emacs are... well, zero. Zero packages. Some are indeed unmaintained, but I still use them and they work as well (or indeed badly) as they did ten or twenty years ago.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#59609; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 59609) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Dec 2022 23:40:47 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 03 18:40:47 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53978 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1p1c7g-0003Rv-L6 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Dec 2022 18:40:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42058) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1p1c7Q-0003Rp-HR for 59609 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Dec 2022 18:40:43 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1p1c7L-0001j7-7c; Sat, 03 Dec 2022 18:40:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=pqKVOQBMhirW6iZpnRun6S2700zVxLmWxRp1zpp5X5c=; b=ULYBrn2iP7hg qYSBw6UqEu3HHSk26Z4st1VP4SLQaMFZVjdCiSpf+o82XTHT9aOYCNH84mHowZLzr0hYVB8bn7t3u bOsIlKp1iFGgmfKh0zODHELVCIOjl1Le/eGyOT1HNStjaNHLY/9LugqzBuOnGv3Z01d233UuZIWKw xNHALPpw6DmTOlNNd3Wn1R2ckXSyLPdoKvC044m7shlymJog7S5M6+gaX9X57eBmriH12hH3d/0YU Z3PQos9hLGYqnsaCbg2pPAO+jon1AyxGOylwx11iG8nYsg5JOD+3kVDX4lpvdjnIUBDkfQp1xSIoV gQARdFVRJznC1P0HPy1pYg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1p1c7K-00051h-Rk; Sat, 03 Dec 2022 18:40:22 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkiCnPLAURRMsaFt830LxGNhN4oSJe+28tjc=7sQP873w@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 30 Nov 2022 19:49:47 -0800) Subject: Re: bug#59609: 29.0.50; [PATCH] Better advertise (Non-)GNU ELPA in emacs manual References: <CADwFkmm=rhOPR9HSneDA_rW+XucKP9jskU+Hdm5YO0X+qaxCbA@HIDDEN> <E1p0Wu6-0000em-KG@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkiCnPLAURRMsaFt830LxGNhN4oSJe+28tjc=7sQP873w@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1p1c7K-00051h-Rk@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2022 18:40:22 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59609 Cc: 59609 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I see no risk that the packages will suddenly go away. Under what > circumstances would that happen? Here are two ways I can envision. If somehow the developers are no longer working on it in a way we can use. If it rots and needs substantial change and the developers are not interested in doing that. > But I don't see > why we need to get into all that in this section, where we are just > letting people know that GNU ELPA and NonGNU ELPA exist. It's about two lines -- not enough to qualify as "all that". -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#59609; Package emacs.
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Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes:
> > + By default, Emacs downloads packages from GNU ELPA
> > +(@url{https://elpa.gnu.org/}), a package archive maintained by the
> > +Emacs developers and hosted by the GNU project. It also downloads
> > +packages from NonGNU ELPA (@url{https://elpa.nongnu.org/}).
>
> I think it is ok to say this about NonGNU ELPA provided we say
> clearly that these are packages we can't or should not include in
> Emacs, so people should not depend on them to continue to be
> present.
I see no risk that the packages will suddenly go away. Under what
circumstances would that happen?
In some cases, we will delete packages from NonGNU ELPA, of course.
This is true for GNU ELPA also, and for Emacs itself. But I don't see
why we need to get into all that in this section, where we are just
letting people know that GNU ELPA and NonGNU ELPA exist.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#59609; Package emacs.
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(message from Stefan Kangas on Sat, 26 Nov 2022 05:44:17 -0800)
Subject: Re: bug#59609: 29.0.50;
[PATCH] Better advertise (Non-)GNU ELPA in emacs manual
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[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
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I'm correcting a message I didn't write clearly.
> + By default, Emacs downloads packages from GNU ELPA
> +(@url{https://elpa.gnu.org/}), a package archive maintained by the
> +Emacs developers and hosted by the GNU project. It also downloads
> +packages from NonGNU ELPA (@url{https://elpa.nongnu.org/}).
I said:
I think it is ok to say this provided that these are packages we can't
or should not include in Emacs, so people can't depend on them
to continue to be present.
I should have said:
I think it is ok to say this about NonGNU ELPA provided we say
clearly that these are packages we can't or should not include in
Emacs, so people should not depend on them to continue to be
present.
Sorry.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#59609; Package emacs.
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(message from Stefan Kangas on Sat, 26 Nov 2022 05:44:17 -0800)
Subject: Re: bug#59609: 29.0.50;
[PATCH] Better advertise (Non-)GNU ELPA in emacs manual
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[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> + By default, Emacs downloads packages from GNU ELPA
> +(@url{https://elpa.gnu.org/}), a package archive maintained by the
> +Emacs developers and hosted by the GNU project. It also downloads
> +packages from NonGNU ELPA (@url{https://elpa.nongnu.org/}).
I think it is ok to say this provided that these are packages we can't
or should not include in Emacs, so people can't depend on them
to continue to be present.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#59609; Package emacs.
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(message from Stefan Kangas on Sat, 26 Nov 2022 05:44:17 -0800)
Subject: Re: bug#59609: 29.0.50;
[PATCH] Better advertise (Non-)GNU ELPA in emacs manual
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> Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 05:44:17 -0800
>
> --- a/doc/emacs/package.texi
> +++ b/doc/emacs/package.texi
> @@ -35,8 +35,10 @@ Packages
> name of a package, and displays a help buffer describing the
> attributes of the package and the features that it implements.
>
> - By default, Emacs downloads packages from a package archive
> -maintained by the Emacs developers and hosted by the GNU project.
> + By default, Emacs downloads packages from GNU ELPA
> +(@url{https://elpa.gnu.org/}), a package archive maintained by the
> +Emacs developers and hosted by the GNU project. It also downloads
> +packages from NonGNU ELPA (@url{https://elpa.nongnu.org/}).
This sounds OK, but begs the question: what's short description of NonGNU
ELPA? Since we describe GNU ELPA, let's also describe the other one. The
purpose should IMO be to explain to the reader, or at least hint why we
maintain two separate archives.
Thanks.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#59609; Package emacs.
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This would help make those archives more well-known and attractive to users and package developers. Thoughts? --000000000000b8702a05ee5fd52a Content-Type: text/x-diff; charset="US-ASCII"; name="0001-Advertise-Non-GNU-ELPA-more.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-Advertise-Non-GNU-ELPA-more.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f24a5bda3fc0cd1b_0.1 RnJvbSBhOTBiOGU1MTc0YjZiZGE1NDhjMDhkMWNlMWYxMWI2NWZjNTY0ZTYwIE1vbiBTZXAgMTcg MDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBTdGVmYW4gS2FuZ2FzIDxzdGVmYW5rYW5nYXNAZ21haWwuY29t PgpEYXRlOiBTYXQsIDI2IE5vdiAyMDIyIDE0OjM5OjAzICswMTAwClN1YmplY3Q6IFtQQVRDSF0g QWR2ZXJ0aXNlIChOb24tKUdOVSBFTFBBIG1vcmUKCiogZG9jL2VtYWNzL3BhY2thZ2UudGV4aSAo UGFja2FnZXMpOiBBZHZlcnRpc2UgKE5vbi0pR05VIEVMUEEKbW9yZS4KLS0tCiBkb2MvZW1hY3Mv cGFja2FnZS50ZXhpIHwgNiArKysrLS0KIDEgZmlsZSBjaGFuZ2VkLCA0IGluc2VydGlvbnMoKyks IDIgZGVsZXRpb25zKC0pCgpkaWZmIC0tZ2l0IGEvZG9jL2VtYWNzL3BhY2thZ2UudGV4aSBiL2Rv Yy9lbWFjcy9wYWNrYWdlLnRleGkKaW5kZXggY2Q0YzExM2FlNS4uY2RjNWIzZGJjOCAxMDA2NDQK LS0tIGEvZG9jL2VtYWNzL3BhY2thZ2UudGV4aQorKysgYi9kb2MvZW1hY3MvcGFja2FnZS50ZXhp CkBAIC0zNSw4ICszNSwxMCBAQCBQYWNrYWdlcwogbmFtZSBvZiBhIHBhY2thZ2UsIGFuZCBkaXNw bGF5cyBhIGhlbHAgYnVmZmVyIGRlc2NyaWJpbmcgdGhlCiBhdHRyaWJ1dGVzIG9mIHRoZSBwYWNr YWdlIGFuZCB0aGUgZmVhdHVyZXMgdGhhdCBpdCBpbXBsZW1lbnRzLgogCi0gIEJ5IGRlZmF1bHQs IEVtYWNzIGRvd25sb2FkcyBwYWNrYWdlcyBmcm9tIGEgcGFja2FnZSBhcmNoaXZlCi1tYWludGFp bmVkIGJ5IHRoZSBFbWFjcyBkZXZlbG9wZXJzIGFuZCBob3N0ZWQgYnkgdGhlIEdOVSBwcm9qZWN0 LgorICBCeSBkZWZhdWx0LCBFbWFjcyBkb3dubG9hZHMgcGFja2FnZXMgZnJvbSBHTlUgRUxQQQor KEB1cmx7aHR0cHM6Ly9lbHBhLmdudS5vcmcvfSksIGEgcGFja2FnZSBhcmNoaXZlIG1haW50YWlu ZWQgYnkgdGhlCitFbWFjcyBkZXZlbG9wZXJzIGFuZCBob3N0ZWQgYnkgdGhlIEdOVSBwcm9qZWN0 LiAgSXQgYWxzbyBkb3dubG9hZHMKK3BhY2thZ2VzIGZyb20gTm9uR05VIEVMUEEgKEB1cmx7aHR0 cHM6Ly9lbHBhLm5vbmdudS5vcmcvfSkuCiBPcHRpb25hbGx5LCB5b3UgY2FuIGFsc28gZG93bmxv YWQgcGFja2FnZXMgZnJvbSBhcmNoaXZlcyBtYWludGFpbmVkIGJ5CiB0aGlyZCBwYXJ0aWVzLiAg QHhyZWZ7UGFja2FnZSBJbnN0YWxsYXRpb259LgogCi0tIAoyLjM1LjEKCg== --000000000000b8702a05ee5fd52a--
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>:monnier@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.monnier@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#59609; Package emacs.
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