GNU bug report logs - #60078
30.0.50; Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods that don't exist anymore

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 30.0.50; Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods that don't
 exist anymore
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 00:55:56 +0200

Steps to reproduce:
1. Add select method
2. Have a group either created before or in Gnus
3. Launch Gnus
4. Quit Gnus
5. Remove select method
6. Relaunch Gnus
7. execute gnus-group-check-bogus-groups or try to delete a group in
Gnus

Result:
gnus-group-expunge-group: nil does not support expunging
gnus-get-function: Trying to require a method that doesn’t exist [2
times]

Expected result:
Groups gone, diagnostic message if needed.

Either Gnus doesn't find bogus groups for no longer existing select
methods or can't delete them.

In GNU Emacs 30.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
 3.24.35, cairo version 1.17.6) of 2022-12-05 built on 875212
Repository revision: 3114158a384d4c1fdc3e1845bf8a55fca7787916
Repository branch: master
System Description: Arch Linux

Configured using:
 'configure --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc --libexecdir=/usr/lib
 --localstatedir=/var --mandir=/usr/share/man --with-gameuser=:games
 --with-modules --with-libotf --without-gconf --with-libsystemd
 --enable-link-time-optimization --with-native-compilation=yes
 --with-native-compilation=aot --with-xinput2 --with-pgtk
 --without-xaw3d --with-sound=alsa --without-gpm --with-tree-sitter
 '--program-transform-name=s/\([ec]tags\)/\1.emacs/'
 'CFLAGS=-march=x86-64 -mtune=native -O2 -pipe -fno-plt -fexceptions
 -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -Wformat -Werror=format-security
 -fstack-clash-protection -fcf-protection -flto=auto'
 'LDFLAGS=-Wl,-O1,--sort-common,--as-needed,-z,relro,-z,now -flto=auto''

Configured features:
ACL CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON
LCMS2 LIBOTF LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY INOTIFY
PDUMPER PGTK PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP XIM GTK3 ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LC_MONETARY: fi_FI.UTF-8
  value of $LANG: en_GB.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Group

Minor modes in effect:
  magit-wip-initial-backup-mode: t
  magit-wip-before-change-mode: t
  magit-wip-after-apply-mode: t
  magit-wip-after-save-mode: t
  magit-wip-mode: t
  global-git-commit-mode: t
  magit-auto-revert-mode: t
  gnus-topic-mode: t
  global-atomic-chrome-edit-mode: t
  minions-mode: t
  back-button-mode: t
  recentf-mode: t
  savehist-mode: t
  emms-playing-time-display-mode: t
  emms-playing-time-mode: t
  autocrypt-mode: t
  gnus-desktop-notify-mode: t
  doom-modeline-mode: t
  global-auto-revert-mode: t
  org-super-agenda-mode: t
  gnus-undo-mode: t
  projectile-mode: t
  global-company-mode: t
  company-mode: t
  electric-pair-mode: t
  editorconfig-mode: t
  frames-only-mode: t
  marginalia-mode: t
  which-key-mode: t
  dired-async-mode: t
  hl-line-mode: t
  helm-mode: t
  helm-minibuffer-history-mode: t
  global-so-long-mode: t
  change-cursor-mode: t
  mode-icons-mode: t
  global-emojify-mode: t
  emojify-mode: t
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  server-mode: t
  helm-autoresize-mode: t
  desktop-save-mode: t
  save-place-mode: t
  delete-selection-mode: t
  override-global-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  buffer-read-only: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
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/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/org-contrib/lisp/ox-groff hides /home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/lisp/ox-groff
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/lisp/htmlize hides /home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/htmlize/htmlize
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/lisp/cursor-chg hides /home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/cursor-chg/cursor-chg
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/cmake-mode/cmake-mode hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cmake-mode
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/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/org/lisp/org-mobile hides /usr/share/emacs/30.0.50/lisp/org/org-mobile
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/org/lisp/org-macs hides /usr/share/emacs/30.0.50/lisp/org/org-macs
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/org/lisp/org-macro hides /usr/share/emacs/30.0.50/lisp/org/org-macro
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/org/lisp/org-loaddefs hides /usr/share/emacs/30.0.50/lisp/org/org-loaddefs
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/org/lisp/org-list hides /usr/share/emacs/30.0.50/lisp/org/org-list
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/org/lisp/org-lint hides /usr/share/emacs/30.0.50/lisp/org/org-lint
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/org/lisp/org-keys hides /usr/share/emacs/30.0.50/lisp/org/org-keys
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/org/lisp/org-inlinetask hides /usr/share/emacs/30.0.50/lisp/org/org-inlinetask
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/org/lisp/org-indent hides /usr/share/emacs/30.0.50/lisp/org/org-indent
/home/bidar/.local/private/etc/emacs/lib/org/lisp/org-id hides /usr/share/emacs/30.0.50/lisp/org/org-id
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Message #8 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
To: Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50;
 Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods that don't exist anymore
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 23:01:18 +0000

Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de> writes:

> Steps to reproduce:
> 1. Add select method
> 2. Have a group either created before or in Gnus
> 3. Launch Gnus
> 4. Quit Gnus
> 5. Remove select method
> 6. Relaunch Gnus
> 7. execute gnus-group-check-bogus-groups or try to delete a group in
> Gnus
>
> Result:
> gnus-group-expunge-group: nil does not support expunging
> gnus-get-function: Trying to require a method that doesn’t exist [2
> times]
>
> Expected result:
> Groups gone, diagnostic message if needed.
>
> Either Gnus doesn't find bogus groups for no longer existing select
> methods or can't delete them.

Hello Björn, thanks for the bug report. I believe that the "correct" way
to deal with such groups is simply to kill them (C-k in *Group* buffer).

The documenatation says the following about the bogus group:

A group that exists in the ‘.newsrc’ file, but isn’t known to the server
(i.e., it isn’t in the active file), is a _bogus group_.  This means
that the group probably doesn’t exist (any more).

So basically if you remove the select method corresponding to a
particular group then Gnus is not able to check for bogus groups.

-- 
Kuba Ječmínek (http://kubajecminek.cz)

Message #11 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
To: Jakub Ječmínek via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the
 Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>,
 Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50; Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods
 that don't exist anymore
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 19:26:08 -0800

Jakub Ječmínek via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of
text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de> writes:
>
>> Steps to reproduce:
>> 1. Add select method
>> 2. Have a group either created before or in Gnus
>> 3. Launch Gnus
>> 4. Quit Gnus
>> 5. Remove select method
>> 6. Relaunch Gnus
>> 7. execute gnus-group-check-bogus-groups or try to delete a group in
>> Gnus
>>
>> Result:
>> gnus-group-expunge-group: nil does not support expunging
>> gnus-get-function: Trying to require a method that doesn’t exist [2
>> times]
>>
>> Expected result:
>> Groups gone, diagnostic message if needed.
>>
>> Either Gnus doesn't find bogus groups for no longer existing select
>> methods or can't delete them.
>
> Hello Björn, thanks for the bug report. I believe that the "correct" way
> to deal with such groups is simply to kill them (C-k in *Group* buffer).
>
> The documenatation says the following about the bogus group:
>
> A group that exists in the ‘.newsrc’ file, but isn’t known to the server
> (i.e., it isn’t in the active file), is a _bogus group_.  This means
> that the group probably doesn’t exist (any more).
>
> So basically if you remove the select method corresponding to a
> particular group then Gnus is not able to check for bogus groups.

My understanding of checking for bogus group is that it should handle
precisely these circumstances: removing groups that no longer have a
corresponding select method.

I tried Björn's recipe in the gnus-mock package, which is the closest
thing I've got to a uncustomized Gnus. Replacing the principle select
method (previously nnmaildir) with nnnil, restarting Gnus, and running
"b", correctly prompted me to remove the three groups that had
previously belonged to the nnmaildir server.

I'm guessing that Björn has some expunging-related customization that
attempts to expunge messages early on, maybe during the active-file
reading that happens as the first step of checking for bogus groups?
Gnus is trying to get the nonexistent select method to expunge its
articles before it has a chance to remove the groups.

Just a guess...

Message #17 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
To: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50;
 Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods that don't exist anymore
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 09:22:58 +0000

"Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> I tried Björn's recipe in the gnus-mock package, which is the closest
> thing I've got to a uncustomized Gnus. Replacing the principle select
> method (previously nnmaildir) with nnnil, restarting Gnus, and running
> "b", correctly prompted me to remove the three groups that had
> previously belonged to the nnmaildir server.

Can you try that with `gnus-secondary-select-methods'?

-- 
Kuba Ječmínek (http://kubajecminek.cz)

Message #20 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
To: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50; Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods
 that don't exist anymore
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 08:12:41 -0800

On 02/23/24 09:22 AM, Jakub Ječmínek wrote:
> "Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> I tried Björn's recipe in the gnus-mock package, which is the closest
>> thing I've got to a uncustomized Gnus. Replacing the principle select
>> method (previously nnmaildir) with nnnil, restarting Gnus, and running
>> "b", correctly prompted me to remove the three groups that had
>> previously belonged to the nnmaildir server.
>
> Can you try that with `gnus-secondary-select-methods'?

Oh weird, in that case I don't get an error, but it also doesn't offer
to remove the groups -- nothing happens at all. I'll look into this a
little more closely.

Message #23 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
To: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50;
 Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods that don't exist anymore
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:10:31 +0000

Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> On 02/23/24 09:22 AM, Jakub Ječmínek wrote:
>> "Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>
>>> I tried Björn's recipe in the gnus-mock package, which is the closest
>>> thing I've got to a uncustomized Gnus. Replacing the principle select
>>> method (previously nnmaildir) with nnnil, restarting Gnus, and running
>>> "b", correctly prompted me to remove the three groups that had
>>> previously belonged to the nnmaildir server.
>>
>> Can you try that with `gnus-secondary-select-methods'?
>
> Oh weird, in that case I don't get an error, but it also doesn't offer
> to remove the groups -- nothing happens at all. I'll look into this a
> little more closely.

Have you managed to make any progress, Eric?

Best

-- 
Kuba Ječmínek (http://kubajecminek.cz)

Message #26 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
To: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50; Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods
 that don't exist anymore
Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 20:38:14 -0700

Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> On 02/23/24 09:22 AM, Jakub Ječmínek wrote:
>>> "Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> I tried Björn's recipe in the gnus-mock package, which is the closest
>>>> thing I've got to a uncustomized Gnus. Replacing the principle select
>>>> method (previously nnmaildir) with nnnil, restarting Gnus, and running
>>>> "b", correctly prompted me to remove the three groups that had
>>>> previously belonged to the nnmaildir server.
>>>
>>> Can you try that with `gnus-secondary-select-methods'?
>>
>> Oh weird, in that case I don't get an error, but it also doesn't offer
>> to remove the groups -- nothing happens at all. I'll look into this a
>> little more closely.
>
> Have you managed to make any progress, Eric?

Ahem...

So it looks like there's multiple things going on here. First of all,
the check for bogus groups explicitly excludes secondary select methods.
Why I do not know, but it's been that way since 2004.

Second, expunging isn't really related to this question. Expunging means
asking a server to delete all deletable articles, and if a group has no
server, then there's no way to do that.

That leaves plain old deleting, and so far as I can tell there's no
problem with deleting groups that have no server present.

So I want to make sure this isn't a misunderstanding about expunging,
and if it isn't, if there's something else I'm missing.

Thanks!
Eric

Message #29 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
To: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50;
 Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods that don't exist anymore
Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 22:08:40 +0000

Hello Eric, thanks for looking into it once again.

"Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> So it looks like there's multiple things going on here. First of all,
> the check for bogus groups explicitly excludes secondary select methods.
> Why I do not know, but it's been that way since 2004.

I believe that this is a bug. The documentation says that the `bogus'
group is such that exists in the `.newsrc' file, but isn’t known to the
server (i.e., it isn’t in the active file).

So it must not be active and must not be foreign. But the definition of
foreign group in `gnus-check-bogus-newsgroups' is different from what
was defined by Lars in 1997:

(defun gnus-group-foreign-p (group)
  "Say whether a group is foreign or not."
  (and (not (gnus-group-native-p group))
       (not (gnus-group-secondary-p group))))

We should use this predicate in `gnus-check-bogus-newsgroups' which
fixes the bug we hit along the way (different behaviour between primary
(native) and secondary select methods).

What do you think?

From a7141acb5361be1c34775bd73434889018f0e9ff Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: =?UTF-8?q?Jakub=20Je=C4=8Dm=C3=ADnek?= <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 23:58:22 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] Fix foreign group predicate in gnus-check-bogus-newsgroups

* lisp/gnus/gnus-start.el (gnus-check-bogus-newsgroups): Use correct
predicate for foreign groups.
---
 lisp/gnus/gnus-start.el | 4 +---
 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 3 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/gnus/gnus-start.el b/lisp/gnus/gnus-start.el
index 05ad4303b5c..b01551d8e22 100644
--- a/lisp/gnus/gnus-start.el
+++ b/lisp/gnus/gnus-start.el
@@ -1368,9 +1368,7 @@ gnus-check-bogus-newsgroups
 	(setq info (pop newsrc)
 	      group (gnus-info-group info))
 	(unless (or (gnus-active group)	; Active
-		    (and (gnus-info-method info)
-			 (not (gnus-secondary-method-p
-			       (gnus-info-method info))))) ; Foreign
+                    (gnus-group-foreign-p group)) ; Foreign
 	  ;; Found a bogus newsgroup.
 	  (push group bogus)))
       (if confirm
-- 
2.34.1


Best

-- 
Kuba Ječmínek (http://kubajecminek.cz)

Message #32 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
To: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50; Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods
 that don't exist anymore
Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 17:55:38 -0700

Jakub Ječmínek via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of
text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Hello Eric, thanks for looking into it once again.
>
> "Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> So it looks like there's multiple things going on here. First of all,
>> the check for bogus groups explicitly excludes secondary select methods.
>> Why I do not know, but it's been that way since 2004.
>
> I believe that this is a bug. The documentation says that the `bogus'
> group is such that exists in the `.newsrc' file, but isn’t known to the
> server (i.e., it isn’t in the active file).
>
> So it must not be active and must not be foreign. But the definition of
> foreign group in `gnus-check-bogus-newsgroups' is different from what
> was defined by Lars in 1997:
>
> (defun gnus-group-foreign-p (group)
>   "Say whether a group is foreign or not."
>   (and (not (gnus-group-native-p group))
>        (not (gnus-group-secondary-p group))))
>
> We should use this predicate in `gnus-check-bogus-newsgroups' which
> fixes the bug we hit along the way (different behaviour between primary
> (native) and secondary select methods).
>
> What do you think?

I think you're right about the definition of "foreign", and that there's
a bug/misunderstanding in code like this, but this check isn't a
complete fix because `gnus-group-secondary-p' looks up the group's
method, and the whole reason we're running this code is that the group's
method no longer exists. (The original/current code also has this
issue.) If the method is actually gone, groups that used to belong to it
will also be passed over.

So I guess there's two scenarios to support: in the first, the server is
still there but one or more groups are gone (someone's deleted an IMAP
folder from the server), and in the second the server itself has been
removed from the user's config files, and we're clearing out the old
groups.

Your patch (or at least the understanding behind it) should be part of
the fix, but there will have to be more.

Thanks,
Eric

Message #35 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
To: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50;
 Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods that don't exist anymore
Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 20:42:05 +0000

This whole issue sent me really deep, so thank you for sticking by.

"Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> I think you're right about the definition of "foreign", and that there's
> a bug/misunderstanding in code like this, but this check isn't a
> complete fix because `gnus-group-secondary-p' looks up the group's
> method, and the whole reason we're running this code is that the group's
> method no longer exists. (The original/current code also has this
> issue.) If the method is actually gone, groups that used to belong to it
> will also be passed over.

Then it comes down to you as package maintainer to decide what bogus
group actually is, because current definition makes little sense to
me. For example, if the server is down and Gnus is not able to get
active info, all groups belonging to that server become bogus, which is
a little unfortunate.

> So I guess there's two scenarios to support: in the first, the server is
> still there but one or more groups are gone (someone's deleted an IMAP
> folder from the server) and in the second the server itself has been
> removed from the user's config files, and we're clearing out the old
> groups.

Both of these cases can be handled with simple (group-active group)
predicate. Do you have a clue why Lars wanted to handle foreign groups
separately? I've searched (ding) mailing list, old bug reports,
changelogs, commit messages, and everything else I could find but I
found nothing.

Thanks!

-- 
Kuba Ječmínek (http://kubajecminek.cz)

Message #38 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
To: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50; Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods
 that don't exist anymore
Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 10:02:51 -0700

Jakub Ječmínek via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of
text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org> writes:

> This whole issue sent me really deep, so thank you for sticking by.

It's pretty confusing.

> "Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> I think you're right about the definition of "foreign", and that there's
>> a bug/misunderstanding in code like this, but this check isn't a
>> complete fix because `gnus-group-secondary-p' looks up the group's
>> method, and the whole reason we're running this code is that the group's
>> method no longer exists. (The original/current code also has this
>> issue.) If the method is actually gone, groups that used to belong to it
>> will also be passed over.
>
> Then it comes down to you as package maintainer to decide what bogus
> group actually is, because current definition makes little sense to
> me. For example, if the server is down and Gnus is not able to get
> active info, all groups belonging to that server become bogus, which is
> a little unfortunate.
>
>> So I guess there's two scenarios to support: in the first, the server is
>> still there but one or more groups are gone (someone's deleted an IMAP
>> folder from the server) and in the second the server itself has been
>> removed from the user's config files, and we're clearing out the old
>> groups.
>
> Both of these cases can be handled with simple (group-active group)
> predicate. Do you have a clue why Lars wanted to handle foreign groups
> separately? I've searched (ding) mailing list, old bug reports,
> changelogs, commit messages, and everything else I could find but I
> found nothing.

This code is ancient, so I think we're dealing with both terminology and
functionality that has evolved over time. A bit of searching indicates
that "bogus" was something of a technical term (in the 90s) in the
usenet world, and meant a group that was being deprecated or deleted,
where server administrators were encouraged to drop it or at least stop
advertising its existence. I think in the Gnus context "bogus" very
specifically refers to this.

The 90s was also when Gnus was fundamentally a newsreader, with
"extras". The primary select method was always going to be a nntp
server. So this check may have grown extra functionality over the years,
but basically it was just meant to see if any NNTP groups had
disappeared from the server.

Now we have more types of server where this might be applicable:
disappearing IMAP folders, deleted maildir directories, etc.

This "foreign" thing is annoying. I guess it just means groups that are
created via the Gnus interface (ie "G m" etc) rather than in your config
files. But it's more subtle than that, because you don't create groups
via your config files, either, you only define select methods. And for
groups created via "G m", it's possible to create a group and specify an
existing (in-your-config-files) select method as its select method. And
if you specify a non-existent select method for the group, that select
method will be "created", in that now it will be treated as real, and
multiple groups that have the same sexp as their select methods will be
treated as having the "same" select method.

Where does that leave us? I think there's no safe way to say "this
group's select method no longer exists", because in many cases the
presence of a sexp like (nnml "<directory>") is enough to count as
"exists".

So I think "bogus" can only mean: "this group belongs to a server that
provides a `gnus-request-list' method, but when we request the list,
this group isn't in it".

I think you're right that simply checking if a group is active shouldn't
mean anything, as there are plenty of reasons a group might not be
activated.

WDYT?

Message #41 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
To: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50;
 Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods that don't exist anymore
Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 19:53:43 +0000

"Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
> [...]
> Where does that leave us? I think there's no safe way to say "this
> group's select method no longer exists", because in many cases the
> presence of a sexp like (nnml "<directory>") is enough to count as
> "exists".
>
> So I think "bogus" can only mean: "this group belongs to a server that
> provides a `gnus-request-list' method, but when we request the list,
> this group isn't in it".
>
> I think you're right that simply checking if a group is active shouldn't
> mean anything, as there are plenty of reasons a group might not be
> activated.
>
> WDYT?

Your analysis is brilliant, thank you. So to summarize what bogus group
 actually should be:

 1. The server of the newsgroup provides `gnus-request-list' method
 2. The server has been sucessfully opened
 3. The group is not listed in the active file
 4. We do not distinguish between native and secondary select methods
 and foreign groups.

Is it correct?

If we go back to Björn's bug report though, I still think that the
"correct" way to remove groups without corresponding select method is to
kill them (C-k) and then kill them again from the list of killed
newsgroups. This is actually what `gnus-check-bogus-newsgroups' function
does.

-- 
Kuba Ječmínek (http://kubajecminek.cz)

Message #44 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
To: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50; Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods
 that don't exist anymore
Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 19:55:32 -0700

Jakub Ječmínek via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of
text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org> writes:

> "Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>> [...]
>> Where does that leave us? I think there's no safe way to say "this
>> group's select method no longer exists", because in many cases the
>> presence of a sexp like (nnml "<directory>") is enough to count as
>> "exists".
>>
>> So I think "bogus" can only mean: "this group belongs to a server that
>> provides a `gnus-request-list' method, but when we request the list,
>> this group isn't in it".
>>
>> I think you're right that simply checking if a group is active shouldn't
>> mean anything, as there are plenty of reasons a group might not be
>> activated.
>>
>> WDYT?
>
> Your analysis is brilliant, thank you. So to summarize what bogus group
>  actually should be:
>
>  1. The server of the newsgroup provides `gnus-request-list' method
>  2. The server has been sucessfully opened
>  3. The group is not listed in the active file
>  4. We do not distinguish between native and secondary select methods
>  and foreign groups.
>
> Is it correct?

That's what I think, yes, though it would probably be a good idea to
float this on gnus.general and see if anyone has any opinions, I'll do
that in a bit.

> If we go back to Björn's bug report though, I still think that the
> "correct" way to remove groups without corresponding select method is to
> kill them (C-k) and then kill them again from the list of killed
> newsgroups. This is actually what `gnus-check-bogus-newsgroups' function
> does.

Yes, poor Björn didn't really get anything resolved -- I think in his
case the thing to do is just delete the groups.

Eric

Message #47 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
To: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50;
 Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods that don't exist anymore
Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 20:48:37 +0000

"Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> That's what I think, yes, though it would probably be a good idea to
> float this on gnus.general and see if anyone has any opinions, I'll do
> that in a bit.

Great.

> Yes, poor Björn didn't really get anything resolved -- I think in his
> case the thing to do is just delete the groups.

Should we close this one or is there anything else to discuss/fix?

Thanks!

Best

-- 
Kuba Ječmínek (http://kubajecminek.cz)

Message #50 received at 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eric Abrahamsen <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net>
To: Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz>
Cc: 60078 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Björn Bidar <bjorn.bidar <at> thaodan.de>
Subject: Re: bug#60078: 30.0.50; Gnus: Can't remove groups of select methods
 that don't exist anymore
Date: Tue, 21 May 2024 15:48:07 -0700

Jakub Ječmínek <kuba <at> kubajecminek.cz> writes:

> "Eric Abrahamsen" <eric <at> ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> That's what I think, yes, though it would probably be a good idea to
>> float this on gnus.general and see if anyone has any opinions, I'll do
>> that in a bit.
>
> Great.
>
>> Yes, poor Björn didn't really get anything resolved -- I think in his
>> case the thing to do is just delete the groups.
>
> Should we close this one or is there anything else to discuss/fix?

I only just posted to gnus.general, maybe let's see what responses are
like, if any, and then decided what to do with this report.

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