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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
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> >> I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only
> >> removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with
> >> "meme",
> >
> > Let's not forget to sanitize "sexp" to "memep". ;-)
^^^
> This is a different case.
> "sexp" is an abbreviation often used in the code. It is also defined in
> "10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly
> used in the manual itself (as footnote explains).
>=20
> Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also
> well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example.
>=20
> In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and
> refers to the concept of sex.
It was meant as a joke.
Which I guess supports the point that jokes
aren't always seen or understood as such.
And they aren't always appreciated as jokes,
even if understood as such. Humor has a
personal aspect.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 14:34:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 09:34:02 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51130 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pU7Ew-0006wX-8N for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:34:02 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:36417) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pU7Es-0006w9-7P for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:34:00 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1BAA240104 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 15:33:50 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676903632; bh=tEFcJSbfLUaxyYEDQta0pl4NdHLaehPS4o4kCOieQr4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=gLQ19wAvqRwv8FIDWcuO2cloOIpScFW+tzPcvtf933SHspUHpwcX/PPTp9D3zk2Cv /jj050GvK9bRfn8wVwtv/jGKv0DeDu4eIpnTGO9aYguvfC5GYpk5C4tHq5EZ169zu4 Gx5Nzcg9hXyC1Svk6dvPPppnaLnK5/JVaSYppFdw/zHAPdZzMFR3jGzBVfecJzMCU5 WO5vlcBMbVjtbNCPkeH4hNVm+FetagD5PJYiVe1LOZIk9znXWxx8I6OFEFXFzNi63y f8nx2KSrUQyqGt8xux4BHU8eNqk+yIM9cl3O3DbO+mcUu/CYbcfnNewBaRJpLsg1wG hbcDHFuHlPqew== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PL4ff5WBjz6tmF; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 15:33:46 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87cz64fm2q.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <CADwFkm=yBp5uuGutOFjFUN6SFo9-R57rDxdJ1r2J4S+KGZhB4g@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB548815FCDDCE520172E5A8D0F3A79@HIDDEN> <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> <87cz64fm2q.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 14:34:27 +0000 Message-ID: <873570e77w.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: "luangruo@HIDDEN" <luangruo@HIDDEN>, "61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, "rms@HIDDEN" <rms@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes: > Could it be that you don't understand *any* joke? Like the one from Drew? I understood the joke in Drew's email. However, I see the topic of abbreviations as adding value to the discussion. Replying with something like ":D" would not add anything. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 14:28:32 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 09:28:31 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51122 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pU79b-0006ns-FW for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:28:31 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:57847) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1pU79X-0006nc-CM for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:28:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1676903295; i=michael.albinus@HIDDEN; bh=gfnI3gAF5Svzp0FKZ6LRgIXUnIjAyTheSOY+5h8ZUbU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=JTw4Pa/HHYsDA8safi+7SNkZ1/cBo+ih3ZD0ZoK4aMbZy4AlOwcYK8shTgJWk1WoO +6fwUt2+x+UOOn/Oih3YHpItCPEgF+VQJ6VH0Y48nnVt0ycX3VEGdxkPqbezOFoqF6 Wb6ztf+vkGzR0wyNNec/Nx62SN5Yd8ZCrvykFYRpkA2+HxXKgT0K9aK7xglnWo+H+s RZGOhTwEjWzKQ58QkaVNUvZP14cBn8aB3FcHK2Z72p0ukyxJRh4QoMN8AZQ2rVmpxH z7RiVkHAyR7d+diCol8N79kKko7M3V0Ndl9g2+gFvymPCbwcpKkBr8E11yVMZJZtb8 jE1ntL5XJoAsQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.39.22]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MAwbp-1pNHVu1fAX-00BJsp; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 15:28:15 +0100 From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:00:29 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <CADwFkm=yBp5uuGutOFjFUN6SFo9-R57rDxdJ1r2J4S+KGZhB4g@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB548815FCDDCE520172E5A8D0F3A79@HIDDEN> <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 15:28:13 +0100 Message-ID: <87cz64fm2q.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:NmKfYzaXN4ERKuao6H81EwuEO0d8PY+FFUR3GbrnbzqngFoJJqJ /asPIk8IvQLDhADrbLEXp0WBicnsru6SUPOHTxrtdV9DN6s8z6AgmhtczFBHS/Bv9mrA+uE hDEESzFUHOhoYlNKaWiLFD3ROppwbCHTrb0F8R23PAWFZo5RhAj3Yx0ssrKlYbrv/RkI9R0 DhcBKV9mBtVTbArb5voTQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:6TZ4npf0NAc=;oedBuWFEG7WkfhOAo9cAVnPl9hx 3BdV4f2otXqP2Vs4AFkWjXKwjoBIJeiadWbE445bzcC/VVj9HRfqVpNUvpCd2shAkX3nRtaQv jcY8mA/nbFJ7lOaxdi3Cz9jI9Bb8dQ0gGIIKbXrmjUgfjQOVZv6dGc6V7fMLKfy6hPtlUmNYH uDqFbssUQ4ZYAl3nnzyYBRjgFuq7DtDrkm/o6Jj3aIzJZKZqkcupUU9vM9rIBPhNrzwDWA6tj Qbso44XPPvkoz8YKI9uMwgUGbrBwlcWaXTgaSrPb3+cBeD+NS9WrLC5lFWD1fZ8HQwzL+kc2w 8uLI8hDgqttCKMx1XmD37kqrhaJg5z0DdHM2uHUFAHK2nLqzHdbUNRMMq3OvWdSGPzQN8j+fb c6epweEgjPwH9fnuWnz0YtnhKtdX9YgmOiUvdFQXbP6WU20cAEfFWfBHxf4uco1dnTdxt/tGY 69knfHnkcyyxFi71939LVqzIA2SQBAXDfIMWmOvsW2FB4+zYniBeO1cwx8j3PUYc5Tu9Wm4ut ScA/6UZImWBRpl8YHC7POHTqtUjAd70yPxWAlWa9led0VW2F9J7f3b7vkEVBwPC5dGr4akkp+ dzYvMIscrZRAOR2FdtV5e5fGiVPEgUL+CXP/WrR5teGo0aSFavxfHjf/EXUe+btfA+TieJ4kC JubVa4GBsywkb5OJcry21ALsWxOkw9aeabUv1F/1iw7T0LQy0cIC9yR40Jg3YmUMa4sj77jqP rAc6Vw1MhBS+4cMyOjZ8B45S+9aPSnA2eFf3ePCN+mlK4xfCJ3gHHGOzaDax3LTUSjlFO91MB lY6zDbGNjZudgie83WE9i1ZxZhvk4SwSH/i0sPti+12Bzt6Q6s7nZPmCtLGKD1t0ImN7n513y W0AXo8bul51uWat3FfEmT30rkhSGyC9uE2gxPPfb1avddcNNzZN0tTOM4G1JO5d9N2WbUkIqf g3lJxzeDerA0qX2XXMI2JcpcDzY= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: "luangruo@HIDDEN" <luangruo@HIDDEN>, "61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, "rms@HIDDEN" <rms@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: Hi Ihor, > Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes: > >>> I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only >>> removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with >>> "meme", >> >> Let's not forget to sanitize "sexp" to "memep". ;-) > > This is a different case. > "sexp" is an abbreviation often used in the code. It is also defined in > "10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly > used in the manual itself (as footnote explains). > > Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also > well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example. > > In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and > refers to the concept of sex. Could it be that you don't understand *any* joke? Like the one from Drew? Best regards, Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4ebb70e9ed0d575c44cc0f402177a3d5; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:37:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: [External] : bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:00:29 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <CADwFkm=yBp5uuGutOFjFUN6SFo9-R57rDxdJ1r2J4S+KGZhB4g@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB548815FCDDCE520172E5A8D0F3A79@HIDDEN> <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 20:37:46 +0800 Message-ID: <87bklofr6t.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 782 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: "61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, "rms@HIDDEN" <rms@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > This is a different case. > "sexp" is an abbreviation often used in the code. It is also defined in > "10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly > used in the manual itself (as footnote explains). > > Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also > well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example. > > In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and > refers to the concept of sex. It refers to the existence of newsgroups centered around sex. An irrefutable fact, just like there are newsgroups centered around Emacs, text editors, torture, and the C Standard. On the other hand, there are no newsgroups centered around posting Internet memes.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 12:37:13 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 07:37:13 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50832 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pU5Pt-0001IU-Bw for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 07:37:13 -0500 Received: from sonic310-50.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.186.231]:35101) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <luangruo@HIDDEN>) id 1pU5Pr-0001IF-60 for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 07:37:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676896625; bh=IjJPKoovRwIE7xQPJ1gptyXJLbjrV1PkGkVPSh4t9As=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=WYAV9eYvTJxafxJfN2v7LCrxYYx3A+kLkfpGb0SrCxzEli+Gk1i/zgFWRqIeRKkafq8w5xuvMtMLfIULUvUdVJv1bO7/jPXuBJtiGU5Z2EZFWVBRYNwwju/PlniVJ2PmlfchYtddIk/WaMHXrFIoRXsviRk9d6c3NcnkVV7u/yK5YsNacnG2ozM6fxmKazKNud0x91qAO9hhbW0BU1rqZb0OIh/f2V2bcZmnYbL1pFw4V40zfeQ3T1R7H5wH6OelJn7LTQjsGayHezHqEkYdl4gmt5F0ibdMgTC1Cnm1LWHSCK+kXRuUNDw+vU1TWjkp1cS9DaK/Tcbqra+HiyTvEA== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676896625; bh=FUt/esX+nvC3MFN1phOfoPQaz23Wg+5XnwpMl3yyg9f=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=Qp6hoeNiF0VJHlErfWr28JyYJD5WSXDG4l8E11NNx4hwiwOpIo22saRVn7NyepD7Z/fJvFmm20VRbpjycrxq6/YWjhbOiRoUlpgmCztPU6u/+QHXaE40l9iLQwwogV51aFPUdSkozHbZqEppObyAWUZVe4NkRaWKFVAj+/eVvsJgh2j+Fn3TtFlW9abUTWEwYnticC1G3CbKOx8cD7LEUOW0gtBcfYIYGCAQtPA1PPSn7aspXe5dGDH2gMMgw3EKlhG4BlJkXlvKWALbZwJt0a1x39xQubXgHhEaDvMLrYjRnNeYhsJcUtQaaEMQHt18LCWq1R/faM5BEzA9gS2r5w== X-YMail-OSG: ShRRWTIVM1mKuISg40XKY6rhm5QPK_j8bfX6qnoaLHEtXbmuMQuLE08V4M0M4KX NvqpJeys9zlGU4am760pMZkit_bQhNfiT2vqhDAMv8vLy910Zf.e6cqhmEHGPu4wm4SV.3mzwtFw 53ij_uJbJr3ZMj0UxHKyGK11v2.8dmVmw_KaLG_T3cMHRVV5p67594wNUEgk197KePSnFtf04iho Uv4s7li_6jrmEfus7ra_KI611DcQDvO.m_pjDPoZkBoPLXilON0qm104otf64Syo4ak3Tn8twjgf ZKLp.edzygSNl2IXKIW8KtjfGpN4NOn8SDrlVPMrUzPvwJEGUDKPJQfU3RenKK..bHb7jns1q1Ox 1hbllIxweCtqa9Q642TeEFRLmNBHS7Sz_Jc7qU0JJrf6OGghneVQyndG6l_cXc9OUFnnOLDLjcSV 3VvPNSsOp47.ymyjp0wPrta_.RmM.HNXADbyVRnMYbA7H_2xYSczRIcuvDjqF3QlvLB37z9VtzeS fTsqzhRM4PB2DlJmoGaZuMpiBkxt4ntLzGzL7u2OdMXHzjDMbtJcgFDQP8ixnwwi9l5n1miukFIq aNmjbglot.G8IKbES3uRgp_687s09SBf7F.8XNQU0d336HG56winWgfQcdl2viKFLpgcd8NsN498 4CQYoq4W.s1Awo4wqw7UUSooTUYssmSt8_zPolmG0ox03b9pUSX6_urzaPpAtJ2P8qg16iivYwy7 dK74C.BAUqfM3MNge7SZPDDlABB5ctPogRlPCv5cGYaWBDSEYj0oJW5n5zArtxVhMRlQpOrrk.g8 XheISiUPaGdXuMHXI_jcQnA.beGniHQXS.HKIHqGhYBLVvdE579Nd5DEtxZKh6yUzaKPQ4PsOyAu gdQ8UCzaM.xxQzQLP_L.Jfhr1xiaaoYJLTkQ.OyCd2Aa5d5SREviGUDu0ll.dVnldRMkUTlSAgxI K5wZin0hs28MZpdZYylgopZq9ZaWJUZl7P.QaGuDc_R33zfIOHApuqqJWhwnWyVZe3OZ9CSf0nWN OHyUv7Be1zWPSeJl9LIQQrL.HfYknp5qOPqARvCG.76rRB4ZC4e3N.5auWor3uHPodmgzxyPqH7z KUimD.wjzlsptAbt5uJKOXKC5b7OyTrXZxsTpGP0GlbUBDs_FR9bMIW6lJEn9ak3V5SgXJJiADkM L176wFICr5ZyvLLrqUInaLKzotRYupbfbYsp_PM5mhPVTem0S6wHL5OMG2gja7ZiFDK3OoKnamjP NFUzzSqIPUv7oGHJFpddDZpxbS0yTfsfYBHuAM.cJ4vsXUetoZc9.jO2gmcOtBvA_g0dn8d9HaXJ t4r6bIW69L_HxqtOE33dY4wV1rN2D_DaevQob11bJvd.P8reS2hO8ZE67eH.H7mdGotHV5hD.MtY ezP_7c1AQ0cNEmqUxfhACGgXbApRwEIDtp48wYH6wVnl6mc1Ox6R4GFJGTjOxyHSn7uQ4CNo43HQ b6Pzt6HMmNjB69vNiMNNynIiY29eh_094xvNqAde4G.5nEnsQwNGinH1WDP9SJGdYPZON8pHjLv3 yYb0G27EA8VSOMnE70y2QDyuH6xWGGpxtIba1bFuk6aQcVDmO6lJm6NAgMjxVzGMHGSwWLD8RSHR E.rv7jRQuOYGR.UCGg4w7Xdb9tLwNIiL6w1aY_YLxwec8J7.0o9ed_g2GRUrNN1xoyC4xNeJWIJA Om8et96.VEIZI9eGLMyWPtBJ3U1N85LzG9Y5YT.lSQbugoS5TFrE7vJNDbVErtyMBdbUBh1Ouet4 03Io.KmMldPpoI6pSJU5_0jFZZHWypTGC1h99Mbrphkd0epODs0jbVcHXvI2YthEfGREr2r0KRCV 8iEjtBMhCGtpnNb4YPr16fG7IZmIEjF_diIlFkMBZbIGAlt.ByA1zY4dFC7ehKVM_fJzV6.61zQ1 s7awzrcdCp0kKKc1TUMzG7e2hZufV.rjshgWm58tuuriYS7ai0FxGvbzEFe0WjwIYZ50Sx9dunCR kJbOJKU3H0hyqmA3uwgDtfcooKsYqd.K8xVU5TUvmU4OlEb.H3Pam.6cz66xXjGqHmxEstWJvALZ N.6rR5rfOgmUEZoy2NzVpaczF.nzmtiY0PH9DHRb0tmOwu0h95Pps0HLktzyOoiubColQM_oOqfJ JmoY9Y3lMPrQYig7P5TfO7BFRIoO9Mawgtkm8NTfkzvh4wl5fMiImt1uQaDkPbaLRlHfYnkoR6q8 bKbW5H0TRgiek9aAyQdutlJ0EfT8092NMKZ20BAFPPS9qttoc20gDuG_ANNM54q6dBPkC_NalQ.5 Vanm9E5c- X-Sonic-MF: <luangruo@HIDDEN> Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:37:05 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-nc5k6 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0e757f12e5d4efabd81252eafc2e6317; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:35:03 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87o7poeesv.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2023 11:50:40 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o7poeesv.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 20:34:57 +0800 Message-ID: <87fsb0frbi.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 2355 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > I agree with you that we cannot 100% guarantee that no single reader > will be offended. However, it does not mean that we should have no > boundaries whatsoever about what to talk about in the manual, especially > in jokes, which do not carry essential information for understanding. > > On one hand, we don't want to cater every single possible offence (like > text that offends a single person in the world, at extreme). > > On the other hand, we probably don't want to joke around universally > disgusting/offending topics as, say, tortures described in details. I am personally fine with such jokes. That doesn't mean I approve of torture, that just means I am not so offended by the mere existence of, say, alt.torture, that I spend my time trying to erase it from the internet. What certain people are trying to do is to turn the world into their personal echo chamber. One person who works on GNU software is a Buddhist. I am jolly glad that I am not forced to be one as well; similarly, he is glad that I do not try to impose my religious viewpoints on to him. Likewise, people should not force others to adopt their own lists of offensive words. > The above two are extreme boundaries. > > RMS suggested that we must avoid jokes that offends users of the > software described in the manual. > > This is another boundary. People who are easily offended will have no use for a newsreader. Unless, of course, they get their internet service from Time Warner Cable. > I suggest avoiding topics __commonly__ known as sensitive at culture > level. > > This is the boundary I propose here. > > You example with "blessed" is not something commonly known as offending, > IMHO. "Sex" is. Unlike certain self-righteous people who are offended by everything on the internet, I recognize that ``blessed'' is used outside its religious context, so if it was not clear from context, I don't actually find it offensive, irrespective of what I think about religion. What I do find offensive, as a person, is the implication that we as a species are so sensitive to certain words that newsgroups must receive the blessings of politically correct priests to continue to exist in a manual. Many people share this viewpoint, certainly more than those who shout at a harmless joke in a newsreader's manual.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 11:59:59 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 06:59:59 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50739 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pU4pr-0006MT-A8 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:59:59 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:50823) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pU4pp-0006ME-0X for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:59:57 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 423412401A8 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:59:51 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676894391; bh=4R7Y6CFtR5zAd1bIKBXA9eArdNwN4+X2l8C5UDmJxt0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=dwV7NXpK6zjzI0y/qfFGKWOLqIYinE+3MGN7UZxgmDMr9DjDULS0iG/ArLTNkki3Y rsShnkkCzptwOtRBcg+StcBFmvK1npyyKM0ya0EXgkOxBlYkyN6/TBToAlOl7E0sn0 0SGYf0Omt1sOnZS69TeTbC23yhEzQnQXdUw6U92vD5fMaDYFBQt5nsROteLoGriYfH APiTW8gc56NH1eQnkUzJFMHH3bRYX/2ZHmhNlmgZAl2ecbfnRvyeiAgZ1UOOv+kZGY D98gv/tGAtoe8bLSOt5ZlURLtkh9NiPaJySENLQYlUeocpYGP/BjokuprxrRaY3Ggg R7vvNpdtuRabQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PL1F15Prbz6tm6; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:59:49 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <SJ0PR10MB548815FCDDCE520172E5A8D0F3A79@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <CADwFkm=yBp5uuGutOFjFUN6SFo9-R57rDxdJ1r2J4S+KGZhB4g@HIDDEN> <SJ0PR10MB548815FCDDCE520172E5A8D0F3A79@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:00:29 +0000 Message-ID: <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: "luangruo@HIDDEN" <luangruo@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, "61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, "rms@HIDDEN" <rms@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes: >> I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only >> removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with >> "meme", > > Let's not forget to sanitize "sexp" to "memep". ;-) This is a different case. "sexp" is an abbreviation often used in the code. It is also defined in "10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly used in the manual itself (as footnote explains). Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example. In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and refers to the concept of sex. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 11:55:22 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 06:55:22 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50726 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pU4lO-0006Fc-CJ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:55:22 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:50243) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pU4lM-0006FP-Qw for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:55:21 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32D73240287 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:55:15 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676894115; bh=KsS5k4cnBexIExobowJe1Y7EfpcqLVEwjToULdmwL10=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=TJ6l3+r6gDobezHKoM/xVYUjJ6NKSAfSypRfcBO3Stvjk15+TbqbuHKYKkHz8SL8L DecZDD9b+Ntzf8xMqEawxFst5ykMeA4U+yXrOvNduylVaJLnXc94eMGW6Uy/5XcEIU gjZyT00TsZ//AwE1EEA3AGze5MdlO/PhKETmGjdMxDSM+JBUC1mGm7iqYMYM6d804u cTR3obHyWtR3sOQ/tM2bsuVZERfkztSvTAxk+TMzk/LKw2nr4QVkkIlSZ7VuwB5Prc dSJpXX0k1BeObUDzg0By6N0JHJO63n3LK9Ahf+b76EbeWzJ3kWTeK+ifogdykMjmHk KNqhD3sCO3lYw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PL17j6F0Cz9rxR; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:55:13 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=yBp5uuGutOFjFUN6SFo9-R57rDxdJ1r2J4S+KGZhB4g@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <CADwFkm=yBp5uuGutOFjFUN6SFo9-R57rDxdJ1r2J4S+KGZhB4g@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 11:55:54 +0000 Message-ID: <87lekseek5.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, rms@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes: > Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > >> I am attaching a patch from another user with some jokes being rewritten >> using different terms. > > I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only > removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with > "meme", which is what most of the internet is about these days) but > keeps the reference to something as innocuous as a "date" (which in > standard American English could mean just having dinner) and "naughty" > (which according to Merriam-Webster means "engaging in or marked by > childish misbehavior"). > > If this is acceptable, I suggest installing this and moving on. > > diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi > index 486171a080a..7d6898bdcea 100644 > --- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi > +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi > @@ -3860,10 +3860,10 @@ Group Topics > ... I have no objections. I also asked the author of the patch I shared and there are no objections either. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 11:50:11 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 06:50:11 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50716 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pU4gN-000682-8p for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:50:11 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:42565) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pU4gL-00067m-Fs for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:50:10 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74B19240136 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:50:00 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676893803; bh=WF3Sy3cVAFPUAHEFwM3ZitoctOfk2pqK95wvJa/r/WY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=R3/niFP1NF2ku9wUvHh3UN5gkJJFqKWD0SJ/SwioPuX5/KnxjohWOXak+Zt+5ppfJ 5WGs72Ws0X3gacP123emjcuUjqpltGjTKFPqhM8g08+d+iheGyf3o+vgj6endSYQU5 1BwsoWFTzHok4ouCNyVzRckzd23k3xR/N2BIDpyqMaz+LwJ7sudMcGxsRxuAXmha2S YsKI/1lUhXVlwPy4T63j21aLh5eyHSpvWRWJCZrcOAVrDMnggaQpz6ZOw3ovqlTTd/ JLJQTePzz+KwaJ+jI7Ux6cmKW+fD6OVQ+YaWiGUdv+SgT69dndPIWSbghGAr4o/QPa SE3mi6+iocBxw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PL11g56z6z6tnD; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:49:59 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 11:50:40 +0000 Message-ID: <87o7poeesv.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes: > In my youth, I took part in campaigns against religion. Likewise, the > word blessed is offensive to me. > > Will you now ``cater'' to me by retracting this change? > If not, why should we cater to you? I agree with you that we cannot 100% guarantee that no single reader will be offended. However, it does not mean that we should have no boundaries whatsoever about what to talk about in the manual, especially in jokes, which do not carry essential information for understanding. On one hand, we don't want to cater every single possible offence (like text that offends a single person in the world, at extreme). On the other hand, we probably don't want to joke around universally disgusting/offending topics as, say, tortures described in details. The above two are extreme boundaries. RMS suggested that we must avoid jokes that offends users of the software described in the manual. This is another boundary. I suggest avoiding topics __commonly__ known as sensitive at culture level. This is the boundary I propose here. You example with "blessed" is not something commonly known as offending, IMHO. "Sex" is. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 05:19:55 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 00:19:55 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50163 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pTyag-0003O8-Qn for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49972) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTyaf-0003Nw-F2 for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:53 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTyaa-0000Ux-7d; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:48 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=pzdzhzPK6A5PhZlaENPo+dKXIunAvGDxw71xek5Vopg=; b=rK5aBRvQdHY5 KS6BQHx/HAbCS0xJjBWCj726r4cLFN4BRAUnHyp1FOSJA+MU7O87bZHqMpizS1JR4umrT1VtsL2jW m4b0VH5e2+x4U17cBP5as+ALA6aXBvPrsTVrxvsboEg8Vj/Bm+nSiut8nbODzvJa0e1uZa26npvYq X2oCmUNXmci1NKXOaHmCFNP6LEExA8pMZuEaJsUGPskbNrX80LTVOBIl8csCN+y2+cryA2MNyStOS C8oQNkZiVeKWTCMFcl4OmIkaFLLr3GfU26TYWDopKiaKr5Hg+nvsgLpQCjNLxm38aEZxD3YZ1hqVf 8QNlbK73cxc8mLfxKvWgfQ==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTyaZ-0000WF-V9; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:48 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <874jrjkyyc.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Sat, 18 Feb 2023 11:14:19 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> <E1pTEhU-0001dq-SC@HIDDEN> <874jrjkyyc.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: <E1pTyaZ-0000WF-V9@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:47 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The technical information is that unlike the concept of > "killing" [*] that may be familiar to Usenet software users, Gnus > introduces the idea of "scoring" [**]. Scoring is a more powerful (and > also faster [***] compared to killing. Gnus recommends using scoring > over killing. > [*] "killing" in Gnus is, AFAIU, hiding (not deleting) threads that > match some criteria. > [**] First mentioned in 3.7 Group Score, but actually more general (does > not only apply to Groups). Score is a number assigned to Gnus > threads according to a number of criteria - each criteria (like > matching some words in subject/body) will increase/decrease the > total score. Gnus can then sort threads according to their score and > even hide threads with score below certain threshold. > [***] 8.13 Kill Files > In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a > lot_) than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite > your kill files into score files. Can you rewrite the actual paragraph to include all that information? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 05:18:13 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 00:18:13 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50158 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pTyZ3-0003LP-9I for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:18:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47570) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTyZ1-0003LA-Jf for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:18:12 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTyYu-0008Jg-Sw; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:18:04 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=0bP2pO1GLaKl3snY3Pr0uFOnGGnITER32y9Z2rxwClQ=; b=R2Y7RPQaSiQK JtD1xwLc1L1GfXfo6yWe9LoOtSsvw3ssMeq2D15oOofzPrApLAKHijN530BRHy+QUkQvagUlUzJ0P OrCsbu9FLR+oElM8kjrKHtjQ2q9cB8x3bRCY+4qTVgs2a78J3gPLmtf1sa1QizvX1WXq/yy5uejcj yaQr/5sgECqIH+4wxGydMG5G08YdeZvumVku5Z7o0snfG01hk6Djv7InSlxhq4l+Sv/c3rz2wijea BddeeZBn8Pxhr4/D3ZVg0fs9jVHRfY2bAFckbon4xaQe4u4okY6lQMTtxf80umr0ZyQ44tB9yFCeI 4W+daiPdzfgpuXQk7Ug/iw==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTyYu-0008QY-Kn; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:18:04 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Petteri Hintsanen <petterih@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87edqn6pmc.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Petteri Hintsanen on Sat, 18 Feb 2023 15:59:39 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87edqn6pmc.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1pTyYu-0008QY-Kn@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:18:04 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] It is ok to have jokes, but this manual also has a serious job to do: explain how to use GNUS, in clear language that is easy to understand. If the explanation depends on getting a joke that not everyone gets, that is a bug, and it needs to be fixed. Would someone like to write a patch to say what "kill file" seriously means, and what "scoring" means, right after the joke about them? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Sun, 19 Feb 2023 15:56:11 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, "rms@HIDDEN" <rms@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Thread-Index: AQHZRF06qkenokcnfkywlsxO+MX07K7WbDAg Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 15:56:10 +0000 Message-ID: <SJ0PR10MB548815FCDDCE520172E5A8D0F3A79@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <CADwFkm=yBp5uuGutOFjFUN6SFo9-R57rDxdJ1r2J4S+KGZhB4g@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=yBp5uuGutOFjFUN6SFo9-R57rDxdJ1r2J4S+KGZhB4g@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|IA1PR10MB5946:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2a4226aa-b2b2-43f2-f23d-08db1291d236 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Both groups are made up. > Trying to censor this part of the Gnus manual is like trying to censor > the Usenet: it won't work. Installing the proposed patch has absolutely nothing to do with censorship, of course. I don't see how anyone could think that it does. I suggest removing a couple of words because the jokes are not that funny, somewhat childish, and arguably distracting to some readers. Furthermore, of course it will "work". I install patches in emacs.git every day, as do you. But of course we can't change Usenet. Comparing Usenet to our git repository is a category error. > One of the few standpoints unrelated to free software taken by the GNU > project is the opposition to censorship. No matter if the demands for > censorship come from individuals, or if they come from the > Communications Decency Act, they must be resolutely opposed. There is no disagreement about this.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d929519fd37980a0fb02093d21f1ede5; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:05:57 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=yBp5uuGutOFjFUN6SFo9-R57rDxdJ1r2J4S+KGZhB4g@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 19 Feb 2023 04:24:01 -0800") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <CADwFkm=yBp5uuGutOFjFUN6SFo9-R57rDxdJ1r2J4S+KGZhB4g@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 21:05:50 +0800 Message-ID: <87cz65hkk1.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1326 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, rms@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes: > I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only > removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with > "meme", which is what most of the internet is about these days) but > keeps the reference to something as innocuous as a "date" (which in > standard American English could mean just having dinner) and "naughty" > (which according to Merriam-Webster means "engaging in or marked by > childish misbehavior"). > > If this is acceptable, I suggest installing this and moving on. The problem with this approach is that alt.sex is a real hierarchy. ``alt.meme'' is not, so it reduces the accuracy of the joke. Trying to censor this part of the Gnus manual is like trying to censor the Usenet: it won't work. It is sad that the unsuccessful attemts at censorship from important people and organizations, including American congressmen and major Internet service providers, have been reused by those pushing modern, for lack of a better phrase, PC rhetoric, against newsreaders. One of the few standpoints unrelated to free software taken by the GNU project is the opposition to censorship. No matter if the demands for censorship come from individuals, or if they come from the Communications Decency Act, they must be resolutely opposed.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, rms@HIDDEN
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Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes:
> I am attaching a patch from another user with some jokes being rewritten
> using different terms.
I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only
removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with
"meme", which is what most of the internet is about these days) but
keeps the reference to something as innocuous as a "date" (which in
standard American English could mean just having dinner) and "naughty"
(which according to Merriam-Webster means "engaging in or marked by
childish misbehavior").
If this is acceptable, I suggest installing this and moving on.
diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
index 486171a080a..7d6898bdcea 100644
--- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
@@ -3860,10 +3860,10 @@ Group Topics
If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over
-here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
+here, your meme groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can
-even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
-groups or the sex groups---or both! Go wild!
+even group the Emacs meme groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
+groups or the meme groups---or both! Go wild!
@iftex
@iflatex
@@ -3880,8 +3880,8 @@ Group Topics
Emacs -- I wuw it!
3: comp.emacs
2: alt.religion.emacs
- Naughty Emacs
- 452: alt.sex.emacs
+ Wayward Emacs
+ 452: alt.meme.emacs
0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
Misc
8: comp.binaries.fractals
@@ -4280,8 +4280,8 @@ Topic Topology
Emacs -- I wuw it!
3: comp.emacs
2: alt.religion.emacs
- Naughty Emacs
- 452: alt.sex.emacs
+ Wayward Emacs
+ 452: alt.meme.emacs
0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
Misc
8: comp.binaries.fractals
@@ -4297,7 +4297,7 @@ Topic Topology
@lisp
(("Gnus" visible)
(("Emacs -- I wuw it!" visible)
- (("Naughty Emacs" visible)))
+ (("Wayward Emacs" visible)))
(("Misc" visible)))
@end lisp
@@ -4351,14 +4351,14 @@ Topic Parameters
Emacs
3: comp.emacs
2: alt.religion.emacs
- 452: alt.sex.emacs
+ 452: alt.meme.emacs
Relief
- 452: alt.sex.emacs
+ 452: alt.meme.emacs
0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
Misc
8: comp.binaries.fractals
13: comp.sources.unix
- 452: alt.sex.emacs
+ 452: alt.meme.emacs
@end group
@end example
@@ -4369,7 +4369,7 @@ Topic Parameters
@* @samp{alt.religion.emacs} has the group parameter @code{(score-file
. "religion.SCORE")}.
-Now, when you enter @samp{alt.sex.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you
+Now, when you enter @samp{alt.meme.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you
will get the @file{relief.SCORE} home score file. If you enter the same
group in the @samp{Emacs} topic, you'll get the @file{emacs.SCORE} home
score file. If you enter the group @samp{alt.religion.emacs}, you'll
@@ -21109,18 +21109,18 @@ Reverse Scoring
@section Reverse Scoring
@cindex reverse scoring
-If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Sex with Emacs} in the
+If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Fun with Emacs} in the
subject header, and expunge all other articles, you could put something
like this in your score file:
@lisp
(("subject"
- ("Sex with Emacs" 2))
+ ("Fun with Emacs" 2))
(mark 1)
(expunge 1))
@end lisp
-So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Sex with Emacs} and mark the
+So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Fun with Emacs} and mark the
rest as read, and expunge them to boot.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 11:13:14 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 19 06:13:14 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45813 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pThd4-0000Fe-Cb for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 06:13:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47538) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pThd3-0000FQ-I1 for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 06:13:13 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pThcy-00038H-5U; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 06:13:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=GYm3JjCCZojc5HqtN7Xm6Byj0VfNR4Kw3PHKyPG/J+Y=; b=Bify+3glRK1M AK3jVAKKC0x9l3OTcoe73TGN2Ifj7hkxHq4P4R7EGV/6pVGjLIS1OGKzaJOBUs/wtei9BpYbQEt0h JnpussrW3d8frOk/lBr9KLrTJVqx0+R/UIO/ECAnUDz/z7EyPr8NQ4SqxfhAtE79NC+ZqNJRdigLS fdbYCCBiHz6mslUrC65fHS0ns4tmoRvFHiEu6GwCiq3OHKRKZCFr4OtZMzY0mIFXqQhSzYzFtHC99 diYmN8IxZv75VWU51q/9pVYF8CSkUEoBXG2Fa8zYko/byMIHB6T7XFuwTEts40JGl8ehpgihO01Ca iQq13Q+1lvGuf4ooOb1ykQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pThcs-0000yz-2i; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 06:13:02 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:13:06 +0200 Message-Id: <831qmlykl9.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@HIDDEN, rms@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: rms@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 19:01:47 +0800 > From: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> > > In my youth, I took part in campaigns against religion. Likewise, the > word blessed is offensive to me. > > Will you now ``cater'' to me by retracting this change? > If not, why should we cater to you? That's too harsh. Let's try conducting this uneasy discussion without being too harsh.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b7649c32fbc1cbefdef98ed996c2098f; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:01:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Sun, 19 Feb 2023 10:36:01 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 19:01:47 +0800 Message-ID: <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1065 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > Explicit or implicit sexual language is potentially unwelcoming, > unsafe, and/or offensive to some people. Also unecessarily distractful. > + 240: alt.space.emacs > + 247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor > + 530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly > Misc > 8: comp.binaries.fractals > 13: comp.sources.unix > @@ -4289,9 +4289,10 @@ Gnus > Emacs -- I wuw it! > 3: comp.emacs > 2: alt.religion.emacs > - Naughty Emacs > - 452: alt.sex.emacs > - 0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery > + Blessed Emacs > + 240: alt.space.emacs > + 247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor > + 530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly I find this offensive to everyone on the Net. It implies we are children who need newsgroups named ``butterfly'', and cry at the sight of the the words ``naughty'' and ``recovery''. In my youth, I took part in campaigns against religion. Likewise, the word blessed is offensive to me. Will you now ``cater'' to me by retracting this change? If not, why should we cater to you?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 10:43:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 19 05:43:23 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45786 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pThAB-0007pw-8p for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:43:23 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:39787) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pThA9-0007pi-EY for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:43:22 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A0E1240234 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:43:13 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676803395; bh=QVUrkzlYDI1VAzP9POfK9GVyUdovbnrp9u8CoeL8diA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=K1mH92KawF0yM3wLbhR+Hni30cngU1n0zLwTR2LzeinBQ5Y8bhdvB1GYuAHiznTf+ Krk+l1RnFsMey+hxJ33AkPmKc/m+rmsUwyAMGRNJ1OmTvxIunp/jZSrFr5xtmEdFz6 +BVe1D6prc6dtsAQ7ox/lGSzRaVC11a8wT4qubA7WDgQSgkn+azFltT0UoYIu+8qdj GhjdXIjSxG15jirM2QOhFSKhqVZU8r6rvlTfRkRWRcerR/4T3L2vtSd0AYon1qO+ih 7ZwtOHneSKhmvPLx037/0Vi6dBRLSTgJU90SVr6OY8l2QKiTPEWBop7EEZfJN9tHIw Bq2Il4P8ODijA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PKMb50Mzxz6ts8; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:43:12 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Petteri Hintsanen <petterih@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87edqn6pmc.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87edqn6pmc.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 10:43:52 +0000 Message-ID: <87k00ej5p3.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Petteri Hintsanen <petterih@HIDDEN> writes: > Looking at the big picture, Gnus manual is full of jokes, irony, > self-deprecation, and other literary devices. It is a losing battle to > try to somehow clean it up by cutting some, possibly objectionable or > confusing, thorns. The manual is full of them. I do not think that objectionable jokes are many in the Gnus manual. I do not think that jokes Gnus manual are all bad. I believe that we can improve the jokes in the Gnus manual, replace some, or add new. We cannot treat manuals as a complete literary piece that must not be changed significantly even when the underlying software is being actively developed. > The whole manual should be rewritten, if one wants to have it written in > "neutral" style -- whatever that would be. For the sake of argument, > let's say that "without literary gimmicks of any kind." I do not think so. We can have jokes in GNU manuals. Officially. https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Humor > As for adjusting the tone of the current manual, I don't see much return > of investment. That energy would be better spent elsewhere. I'd leave > the current manual as-is. I believe that the current manual can be improved without rewriting. It is more likely than someone rewriting it. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
To: rms@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
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Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 10:36:01 +0000
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Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes:
> > I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the
> > manuals. At least to some degree.
>
> Yss, they do.
>
> The points in the Kind Communication Guidelines are not rules -- they
> don't draw precise lines. They are guidelines to apply, and how to
> apply them is a matter of judgment. We should never write anything to
> offend a demographic group. But when someone takes offense where no
> offense was intended, we have to judge the issue by its specifics.
Makes sense indeed. At least for the first guideline I quoted.
What about the second one?
If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas,
please make an effort to cater to them. You can find ways to express
the same points while making others more comfortable. You are more
likely to persuade others if you don't arouse ire about secondary
things.
This bug report started by a report from a user complaining about 3
specific sections of Gnus manual (Note in 3.15 Exiting Gnus, sex joke in
3.16 Group Topics, and sex joke in 8 Scoring).
While removing the problematic parts is not something we have to do
(they clearly mean no offence), what about rewriting them in such a way
that sex topic is avoided and yet the jokes are retained.
I am attaching a patch from another user with some jokes being rewritten
using different terms.
--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: inline;
filename=0001-doc-misc-gnus.texi-change-text-to-more-neutral-inclu.patch
From 21303f2838c9cd57c30086bf68b7a0f1b19b537e Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Yuu Yin <yuuyin@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:27:19 +0000
Subject: [PATCH] doc/misc/gnus.texi: change text to more neutral/inclusive
language
Explicit or implicit sexual language is potentially unwelcoming,
unsafe, and/or offensive to some people. Also unecessarily distractful.
---
doc/misc/gnus.texi | 72 +++++++++++++++++++++-------------------------
1 file changed, 32 insertions(+), 40 deletions(-)
diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
index 1769b70c9bc..0b23f2c5c01 100644
--- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
@@ -3868,11 +3868,10 @@ plastic chair.
@cindex topics
If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
-them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over
-here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
-you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can
-even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
-groups or the sex groups---or both! Go wild!
+them hierarchically according to topics. For example, you can Emacs
+groups at a specific topic and other groups in a misc section. You
+can even group the blessed Emacs groups as a sub-topic to either the
+Emacs groups or the misc groups---or both!
@iftex
@iflatex
@@ -3889,9 +3888,10 @@ Gnus
Emacs -- I wuw it!
3: comp.emacs
2: alt.religion.emacs
- Naughty Emacs
- 452: alt.sex.emacs
- 0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
+ Blessed Emacs
+ 240: alt.space.emacs
+ 247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor
+ 530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly
Misc
8: comp.binaries.fractals
13: comp.sources.unix
@@ -4289,9 +4289,10 @@ Gnus
Emacs -- I wuw it!
3: comp.emacs
2: alt.religion.emacs
- Naughty Emacs
- 452: alt.sex.emacs
- 0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
+ Blessed Emacs
+ 240: alt.space.emacs
+ 247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor
+ 530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly
Misc
8: comp.binaries.fractals
13: comp.sources.unix
@@ -4306,7 +4307,7 @@ follows:
@lisp
(("Gnus" visible)
(("Emacs -- I wuw it!" visible)
- (("Naughty Emacs" visible)))
+ (("Blessed Emacs" visible)))
(("Misc" visible)))
@end lisp
@@ -4360,14 +4361,11 @@ Gnus
Emacs
3: comp.emacs
2: alt.religion.emacs
- 452: alt.sex.emacs
Relief
- 452: alt.sex.emacs
- 0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
+ 26984: gnu.emacs.bug
Misc
8: comp.binaries.fractals
13: comp.sources.unix
- 452: alt.sex.emacs
@end group
@end example
@@ -4378,7 +4376,7 @@ topic parameter @code{(score-file . "emacs.SCORE")}. In addition,
@* @samp{alt.religion.emacs} has the group parameter @code{(score-file
. "religion.SCORE")}.
-Now, when you enter @samp{alt.sex.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you
+Now, when you enter @samp{gnu.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you
will get the @file{relief.SCORE} home score file. If you enter the same
group in the @samp{Emacs} topic, you'll get the @file{emacs.SCORE} home
score file. If you enter the group @samp{alt.religion.emacs}, you'll
@@ -11900,9 +11898,9 @@ while people stand around yawning.
@acronym{MIME}, however, is a standard for encoding your articles, aimlessly,
while all newsreaders die of fear.
-@acronym{MIME} may specify what character set the article uses, the encoding
-of the characters, and it also makes it possible to embed pictures and
-other naughty stuff in innocent-looking articles.
+@acronym{MIME} may specify what character set the article uses, the
+encoding of the characters, and it also makes it possible to embed
+pictures in articles.
@vindex gnus-display-mime-function
@findex gnus-display-mime
@@ -18213,22 +18211,21 @@ Here is a typical scenario:
@itemize @bullet
@item
-You've got a date with Andy Mc Dowell or Bruce Willis (select according
-to your sexual preference) in one month. You don't want to forget it.
+You've got a space flight in one month. You don't want to forget it.
@item
So you send a ``reminder'' message (actually, a diary one) to yourself.
@item
You forget all about it and keep on getting and reading new mail, as usual.
@item
-From time to time, as you type @kbd{g} in the group buffer and as the date
-is getting closer, the message will pop up again to remind you of your
-appointment, just as if it were new and unread.
+From time to time, as you type @kbd{g} in the group buffer and as the
+flight is getting closer, the message will pop up again to remind you
+of your appointment, just as if it were new and unread.
@item
Read your ``new'' messages, this one included, and start dreaming again
of the night you're gonna have.
@item
-Once the date is over (you actually fell asleep just after dinner), the
-message will be automatically deleted if it is marked as expirable.
+Once the flight is over, the message will be automatically deleted if
+it is marked as expirable.
@end itemize
The Gnus Diary back end has the ability to handle regular appointments
@@ -20476,13 +20473,8 @@ up being marked as having 0 lines. This can lead to strange results if
you happen to lower score of the articles with few lines.
@item Date
-For the Date header we have three kinda silly match types:
-@code{before}, @code{at} and @code{after}. I can't really imagine this
-ever being useful, but, like, it would feel kinda silly not to provide
-this function. Just in case. You never know. Better safe than sorry.
-Once burnt, twice shy. Don't judge a book by its cover. Never not have
-sex on a first date. (I have been told that at least one person, and I
-quote, ``found this function indispensable'', however.)
+For the Date header we have match types:
+@code{before}, @code{at} and @code{after}.
@cindex ISO8601
@cindex date
@@ -21118,19 +21110,19 @@ That will match newlines, which might lead to, well, The Unknown. Say
@section Reverse Scoring
@cindex reverse scoring
-If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Sex with Emacs} in the
-subject header, and expunge all other articles, you could put something
-like this in your score file:
+If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Emacs} in the
+subject header, and expunge all other articles, you could put
+something like this in your score file:
@lisp
(("subject"
- ("Sex with Emacs" 2))
+ ("Emacs" 2))
(mark 1)
(expunge 1))
@end lisp
-So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Sex with Emacs} and mark the
-rest as read, and expunge them to boot.
+So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Emacs} and mark the rest
+as read, and expunge them to boot.
@node Global Score Files
--
2.39.1
--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain
--
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
--=-=-=--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 10:25:11 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 19 05:25:11 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45764 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pTgsZ-0007M1-3c for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:25:11 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:36797) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pTgsV-0007LB-EE for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:25:08 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E86D2400DF for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:25:00 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676802301; bh=Oh83+3WIzIuN0ywsmLU4tReLnE6HNitrEKpfGxfU45k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=RQzZxPKQxu3FhMg4sTp7nnugjauLT8iIYnxAU+uRJcTKHBL+KEJRB7fmx0DFxnJ3F kDbvJTfqSMxaLUfvnZvKB+HFSfHWrzVPNQ2Zlq3w6X4pOFyTrWwAWXGGLx+NIOf3bG J87B8xisrcnVpltp4g/bNsdVodGOCs40+cN85xVJpGjTnmNeij764x4StGDmveakco 2ttdSL9vWdJAD6YMJmiBVhZD+/YHRuKoIdjO9rGiw58c6Tl/6qGcwmOHsHCzbj98ZW NUpxpKdesPbVJ4Lk0niJ4Ypo8fQ/7EjDBLU+B23a+509s7A8rZvhpzP6CZ7qRhzsZl gklgOdRySTMUA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PKMB40NsVz6tqs; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:24:59 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: rms@HIDDEN Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <E1pTEhV-0001eG-P2@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <E1pTEhV-0001eG-P2@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 10:25:35 +0000 Message-ID: <87pma6j6jk.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes: > > > We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their > > > unrelated hgypersensitivities on others. They are demanding power > > > which nobody should have. > > > I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics, > > like sex, races, politics, etc? > > Nowadays there is a fashion for hypersensitivity; whatever the topic. > If you approach within 50 feet, some will say "That's offensively > close." No one is entitled to that much control over others. I agree in general. However, not following the fashion for hypersensitivity does not mean doing the opposite-ignoring that fact that some statements/topics can be sensitive/offensive. There should be a boundary, albeit not the same with specific country standards. I proposed the boundary to be the topics well-known to be sensitive for the whole cultures. Or it can be a different boundary - a consensus among users across the world. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 248499da6fe4587de778642411cb2439; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:07:19 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Fri, 17 Feb 2023 12:49:06 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:07:03 +0800 Message-ID: <87edqmjlag.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 897 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the > manuals. At least to some degree. > > <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html>: > > Please avoid statements about the presumed typical desires, capabilities > or actions of some demographic group. They can offend people in that > group, ... > > ... > > If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas, > please make an effort to cater to them. You can find ways to express > the same points while making others more comfortable. You are more > likely to persuade others if you don't arouse ire about secondary > things. > > I think that the above two guidelines can be applied to some of the > discussed jokes. Those guidelines are guidelines, not requirements, and do not extend to unreasonable complaints.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
To: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
In-Reply-To: <E1pTbeD-00009B-SI@HIDDEN> (Richard Stallman's message
of "Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:01 -0500")
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Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:04:44 +0800
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Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> > A kill file (also killfile, bozo bin or twit list) is a file used
> > by some Usenet reading programs to discard articles matching some
> > unwanted patterns of subject, author, or other header
> > lines. Adding a person or subject to one's kill file means that
> > person or topic will be ignored by one's newsreader in the
> > future. By extension, the term may be used for a decision to
> > ignore the person or subject in other media.
>
> I see. But the manual has to tell the reader this, if it mentions
> kill files at all.
>
> > More advanced newsreader software like Gnus sometimes provides a
> > more sophisticated form of filter known as scoring, where score
> > files are maintained which use fuzzy logic to apply arbitrarily
> > complex overlapping sets of rules to score articles up or down,
> > with articles being properly killed (ignored by the newsreader)
> > only when their weighted score drops below a user-defined
> > threshold.
>
> That seems like a useful feature. But the GNUS manual has to explain it.
And, it does...
8.13 Kill Files
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill file
entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I=E2=80=99ve left the code in ther=
e.
In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a lot_)
than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite your kill
files into score files.
Anyway, a kill file is a normal =E2=80=98emacs-lisp=E2=80=99 file. You =
can put any
forms into this file, which means that you can use kill files as some
sort of primitive hook function to be run on group entry, even though
that isn=E2=80=99t a very good idea.
Normal kill files look like this:
(gnus-kill "From" "Lars Ingebrigtsen")
(gnus-kill "Subject" "ding")
(gnus-expunge "X")
This will mark every article written by me as read, and remove the
marked articles from the summary buffer. Very useful, you=E2=80=99ll agree.
Other programs use a totally different kill file syntax. If Gnus
encounters what looks like a =E2=80=98rn=E2=80=99 kill file, it will take a=
stab at
interpreting it.
Two summary functions for editing a GNUS kill file:
=E2=80=98M-k=E2=80=99
Edit this group=E2=80=99s kill file (=E2=80=98gnus-summary-edit-local-=
kill=E2=80=99).
=E2=80=98M-K=E2=80=99
Edit the general kill file (=E2=80=98gnus-summary-edit-global-kill=E2=
=80=99).
Two group mode functions for editing the kill files:
=E2=80=98M-k=E2=80=99
Edit this group=E2=80=99s kill file (=E2=80=98gnus-group-edit-local-ki=
ll=E2=80=99).
=E2=80=98M-K=E2=80=99
Edit the general kill file (=E2=80=98gnus-group-edit-global-kill=E2=80=
=99).
Kill file variables:
=E2=80=98gnus-kill-file-name=E2=80=99
A kill file for the group =E2=80=98soc.motss=E2=80=99 is normally call=
ed
=E2=80=98soc.motss.KILL=E2=80=99. The suffix appended to the group na=
me to get
this file name is detailed by the =E2=80=98gnus-kill-file-name=E2=80=
=99 variable.
The =E2=80=9Cglobal=E2=80=9D kill file (not in the score file sense of=
=E2=80=9Cglobal=E2=80=9D, of
course) is just called =E2=80=98KILL=E2=80=99.
=E2=80=98gnus-kill-save-kill-file=E2=80=99
If this variable is non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99, Gnus will save the kill=
file after
processing, which is necessary if you use expiring kills.
=E2=80=98gnus-apply-kill-hook=E2=80=99
A hook called to apply kill files to a group. It is
=E2=80=98(gnus-apply-kill-file)=E2=80=99 by default. If you want to i=
gnore the
kill file if you have a score file for the same group, you can set
this hook to =E2=80=98(gnus-apply-kill-file-unless-scored)=E2=80=99. =
If you don=E2=80=99t
want kill files to be processed, you should set this variable to
=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99.
=E2=80=98gnus-kill-file-mode-hook=E2=80=99
A hook called in kill-file mode buffers.
8.4 Score File Format
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
A score file is an =E2=80=98emacs-lisp=E2=80=99 file that normally contains=
just a
single form. Casual users are not expected to edit these files;
everything can be changed from the summary buffer.
Anyway, if you=E2=80=99d like to dig into it yourself, here=E2=80=99s an=
example:
(("from"
("Lars Ingebrigtsen" -10000)
("Per Abrahamsen")
("larsi\\|lmi" -50000 nil R))
("subject"
("Ding is Badd" nil 728373))
("xref"
("alt.politics" -1000 728372 s))
("lines"
(2 -100 nil <))
(mark 0)
(expunge -1000)
(mark-and-expunge -10)
(read-only nil)
(orphan -10)
(adapt t)
(files "/hom/larsi/News/gnu.SCORE")
(exclude-files "all.SCORE")
(local (gnus-newsgroup-auto-expire t)
(gnus-summary-make-false-root empty))
(eval (ding)))
This example demonstrates most score file elements. *Note Advanced
Scoring::, for a different approach.
Even though this looks much like Lisp code, nothing here is actually
=E2=80=98eval=E2=80=99ed. The Lisp reader is used to read this form, thoug=
h, so it has
to be valid syntactically, if not semantically.
Six keys are supported by this alist:
=E2=80=98STRING=E2=80=99
If the key is a string, it is the name of the header to perform the
match on. Scoring can only be performed on these eight headers:
=E2=80=98From=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98Subject=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98References=
=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98Message-ID=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98Xref=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98L=
ines=E2=80=99,
=E2=80=98Chars=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98Date=E2=80=99. In addition to th=
ese headers, there are three
strings to tell Gnus to fetch the entire article and do the match
on larger parts of the article: =E2=80=98Body=E2=80=99 will perform th=
e match on
the body of the article, =E2=80=98Head=E2=80=99 will perform the match=
on the head
of the article, and =E2=80=98All=E2=80=99 will perform the match on th=
e entire
article. Note that using any of these last three keys will slow
down group entry _considerably_. The final =E2=80=9Cheader=E2=80=9D y=
ou can score
on is =E2=80=98Followup=E2=80=99. These score entries will result in =
new score
entries being added for all follow-ups to articles that matches
these score entries.
Following this key is an arbitrary number of score entries, where
each score entry has one to four elements.
1. The first element is the =E2=80=9Cmatch element=E2=80=9D. On mos=
t headers
this will be a string, but on the Lines and Chars headers,
this must be an integer.
2. If the second element is present, it should be a number=E2=80=94t=
he
=E2=80=9Cscore element=E2=80=9D. This number should be an intege=
r in the
neginf to posinf interval. This number is added to the score
of the article if the match is successful. If this element is
not present, the =E2=80=98gnus-score-interactive-default-score=E2=
=80=99 number
will be used instead. This is 1000 by default.
3. If the third element is present, it should be a number=E2=80=94the
=E2=80=9Cdate element=E2=80=9D. This date says when the last tim=
e this score
entry matched, which provides a mechanism for expiring the
score entries. It this element is not present, the score
entry is permanent. The date is represented by the number of
days since December 31, 1 BCE.
4. If the fourth element is present, it should be a symbol=E2=80=94t=
he
=E2=80=9Ctype element=E2=80=9D. This element specifies what func=
tion should
be used to see whether this score entry matches the article.
What match types that can be used depends on what header you
wish to perform the match on.
=E2=80=9CFrom, Subject, References, Xref, Message-ID=E2=80=9D
For most header types, there are the =E2=80=98r=E2=80=99 and=
=E2=80=98R=E2=80=99
(regexp), as well as =E2=80=98s=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98S=E2=
=80=99 (substring) types, and
=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98E=E2=80=99 (exact match), a=
nd =E2=80=98w=E2=80=99 (word match) types.
If this element is not present, Gnus will assume that
substring matching should be used. =E2=80=98R=E2=80=99, =E2=
=80=98S=E2=80=99, and =E2=80=98E=E2=80=99
differ from the others in that the matches will be done
in a case-sensitive manner. All these one-letter types
are really just abbreviations for the =E2=80=98regexp=E2=80=
=99, =E2=80=98string=E2=80=99,
=E2=80=98exact=E2=80=99, and =E2=80=98word=E2=80=99 types, w=
hich you can use instead, if
you feel like.
=E2=80=9CExtra=E2=80=9D
Just as for the standard string overview headers, if you
are using gnus-extra-headers, you can score on these
headers=E2=80=99 values. In this case, there is a 5th eleme=
nt in
the score entry, being the name of the header to be
scored. The following entry is useful in your
=E2=80=98all.SCORE=E2=80=99 file in case of spam attacks fro=
m a single
origin host, if your NNTP server tracks
=E2=80=98NNTP-Posting-Host=E2=80=99 in overviews:
("111.222.333.444" -1000 nil s
"NNTP-Posting-Host")
=E2=80=9CLines, Chars=E2=80=9D
These two headers use different match types: =E2=80=98<=E2=
=80=99, =E2=80=98>=E2=80=99,
=E2=80=98=3D=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98>=3D=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98<=
=3D=E2=80=99.
These predicates are true if
(PREDICATE HEADER MATCH)
evaluates to non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99. For instance, the a=
dvanced match
=E2=80=98("lines" 4 <)=E2=80=99 (*note Advanced Scoring::) w=
ill result in
the following form:
(< header-value 4)
Or to put it another way: When using =E2=80=98<=E2=80=99 on =
=E2=80=98Lines=E2=80=99 with
4 as the match, we get the score added if the article has
less than 4 lines. (It=E2=80=99s easy to get confused and t=
hink
it=E2=80=99s the other way around. But it=E2=80=99s not. I=
think.)
When matching on =E2=80=98Lines=E2=80=99, be careful because=
some back
ends (like =E2=80=98nndir=E2=80=99) do not generate =E2=80=
=98Lines=E2=80=99 header, so
every article ends up being marked as having 0 lines.
This can lead to strange results if you happen to lower
score of the articles with few lines.
=E2=80=9CDate=E2=80=9D
For the Date header we have three kinda silly match
types: =E2=80=98before=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98at=E2=80=99 and =
=E2=80=98after=E2=80=99. I can=E2=80=99t really
imagine this ever being useful, but, like, it would feel
kinda silly not to provide this function. Just in case.
You never know. Better safe than sorry. Once burnt,
twice shy. Don=E2=80=99t judge a book by its cover. Never =
not
have sex on a first date. (I have been told that at
least one person, and I quote, =E2=80=9Cfound this function
indispensable=E2=80=9D, however.)
A more useful match type is =E2=80=98regexp=E2=80=99. With =
it, you can
match the date string using a regular expression. The
date is normalized to ISO8601 compact format
first=E2=80=94YYYYMMDD=E2=80=98T=E2=80=99HHMMSS. If you wan=
t to match all
articles that have been posted on April 1st in every
year, you could use =E2=80=98....0401.........=E2=80=99 as a=
match
string, for instance. (Note that the date is kept in its
original time zone, so this will match articles that were
posted when it was April 1st where the article was posted
from. Time zones are such wholesome fun for the whole
family, eh?)
Finally, two actually useful match types for dates: =E2=80=
=98<=E2=80=99
and =E2=80=98>=E2=80=99. These will allow scoring on the re=
lative age
(in days) of the articles. Here=E2=80=99s an example score =
file
using the method:
(("date"
(7 10 nil <)
(7 -10 nil >)
(14 -10 nil >)))
This results in articles less than a week old getting a
10 point increase, articles older than a week getting a
10 point decrease, and articles older than two weeks
getting a cumulative 20 point decrease.
The day can also be a floating point number: To score
articles less than an hour old, you can say =E2=80=98(0.04 1=
0 nil
<)=E2=80=99.
=E2=80=9CHead, Body, All=E2=80=9D
These three match keys use the same match types as the
=E2=80=98From=E2=80=99 (etc.) header uses.
=E2=80=9CFollowup=E2=80=9D
This match key is somewhat special, in that it will match
the =E2=80=98From=E2=80=99 header, and affect the score of n=
ot only the
matching articles, but also all followups to the matching
articles. This allows you to increase the score of
followups to your own articles, or decrease the score of
followups to the articles of some known trouble-maker.
Uses the same match types as the =E2=80=98From=E2=80=99 head=
er uses.
(Using this match key will lead to creation of =E2=80=98ADAP=
T=E2=80=99
files.)
=E2=80=9CThread=E2=80=9D
This match key works along the same lines as the
=E2=80=98Followup=E2=80=99 match key. If you say that you w=
ant to score
on a (sub-)thread started by an article with a
=E2=80=98Message-ID=E2=80=99 X, then you add a =E2=80=98thre=
ad=E2=80=99 match. This will
add a new =E2=80=98thread=E2=80=99 match for each article th=
at has X in
its =E2=80=98References=E2=80=99 header. (These new =E2=80=
=98thread=E2=80=99 matches
will use the =E2=80=98Message-ID=E2=80=99s of these matching=
articles.)
This will ensure that you can raise/lower the score of an
entire thread, even though some articles in the thread
may not have complete =E2=80=98References=E2=80=99 headers. =
Note that
using this may lead to nondeterministic scores of the
articles in the thread. (Using this match key will lead
to creation of =E2=80=98ADAPT=E2=80=99 files.)
=E2=80=98score-fn=E2=80=99
The value of this entry should be one or more user-defined function
names in parentheses. Each function will be called in order and
the returned value is required to be an integer.
(score-fn (custom-scoring))
The user-defined function is called with an association list with
the keys =E2=80=98number subject from date id refs chars lines xref ex=
tra=E2=80=99
followed by the article=E2=80=99s score before the function is run.
The following (somewhat contrived) example shows how to use a
user-defined function that increases an article=E2=80=99s score by 10 =
if
the year of the article=E2=80=99s date is also mentioned in its subjec=
t.
(defun custom-scoring (article-alist score)
(let ((subject (cdr (assoc 'subject article-alist)))
(date (cdr (assoc 'date article-alist))))
(if (string-match (number-to-string
(nth 5 (parse-time-string date)))
subject)
10)))
=E2=80=98score-fn=E2=80=99 entries are permanent and can only be added=
or modified
directly in the =E2=80=98SCORE=E2=80=99 file.
=E2=80=98mark=E2=80=99
The value of this entry should be a number. Any articles with a
score lower than this number will be marked as read.
=E2=80=98expunge=E2=80=99
The value of this entry should be a number. Any articles with a
score lower than this number will be removed from the summary
buffer.
=E2=80=98mark-and-expunge=E2=80=99
The value of this entry should be a number. Any articles with a
score lower than this number will be marked as read and removed
from the summary buffer.
=E2=80=98thread-mark-and-expunge=E2=80=99
The value of this entry should be a number. All articles that
belong to a thread that has a total score below this number will be
marked as read and removed from the summary buffer.
=E2=80=98gnus-thread-score-function=E2=80=99 says how to compute the t=
otal score
for a thread.
=E2=80=98files=E2=80=99
The value of this entry should be any number of file names. These
files are assumed to be score files as well, and will be loaded the
same way this one was.
=E2=80=98exclude-files=E2=80=99
The clue of this entry should be any number of files. These files
will not be loaded, even though they would normally be so, for some
reason or other.
=E2=80=98eval=E2=80=99
The value of this entry will be =E2=80=98eval=E2=80=99ed. This elemen=
t will be
ignored when handling global score files.
=E2=80=98read-only=E2=80=99
Read-only score files will not be updated or saved. Global score
files should feature this atom (*note Global Score Files::).
(Note: =E2=80=9CGlobal=E2=80=9D here really means =E2=80=9Cglobal=E2=
=80=9D; not your personal
apply-to-all-groups score files.)
=E2=80=98orphan=E2=80=99
The value of this entry should be a number. Articles that do not
have parents will get this number added to their scores. Imagine
you follow some high-volume newsgroup, like =E2=80=98comp.lang.c=E2=80=
=99. Most
likely you will only follow a few of the threads, also want to see
any new threads.
You can do this with the following two score file entries:
(orphan -500)
(mark-and-expunge -100)
When you enter the group the first time, you will only see the new
threads. You then raise the score of the threads that you find
interesting (with =E2=80=98I T=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98I S=E2=80=99), and=
ignore (=E2=80=98c y=E2=80=99) the rest.
Next time you enter the group, you will see new articles in the
interesting threads, plus any new threads.
I.e., the orphan score atom is for high-volume groups where a few
interesting threads which can=E2=80=99t be found automatically by ordi=
nary
scoring rules exist.
=E2=80=98adapt=E2=80=99
This entry controls the adaptive scoring. If it is =E2=80=98t=E2=80=
=99, the
default adaptive scoring rules will be used. If it is =E2=80=98ignore=
=E2=80=99, no
adaptive scoring will be performed on this group. If it is a list,
this list will be used as the adaptive scoring rules. If it isn=E2=80=
=99t
present, or is something other than =E2=80=98t=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98ig=
nore=E2=80=99, the default
adaptive scoring rules will be used. If you want to use adaptive
scoring on most groups, you=E2=80=99d set =E2=80=98gnus-use-adaptive-s=
coring=E2=80=99 to
=E2=80=98t=E2=80=99, and insert an =E2=80=98(adapt ignore)=E2=80=99 in=
the groups where you do not
want adaptive scoring. If you only want adaptive scoring in a few
groups, you=E2=80=99d set =E2=80=98gnus-use-adaptive-scoring=E2=80=99 =
to =E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99, and insert
=E2=80=98(adapt t)=E2=80=99 in the score files of the groups where you=
want it.
=E2=80=98adapt-file=E2=80=99
All adaptive score entries will go to the file named by this entry.
It will also be applied when entering the group. This atom might
be handy if you want to adapt on several groups at once, using the
same adaptive file for a number of groups.
=E2=80=98local=E2=80=99
The value of this entry should be a list of =E2=80=98(VAR VALUE)=E2=80=
=99 pairs.
Each VAR will be made buffer-local to the current summary buffer,
and set to the value specified. This is a convenient, if somewhat
strange, way of setting variables in some groups if you don=E2=80=99t =
like
hooks much. Note that the VALUE won=E2=80=99t be evaluated.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 04:50:47 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 18 23:50:46 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45370 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pTbew-0006Le-Jv for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34020) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTbeu-0006LQ-SJ for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:45 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTbep-0001ZS-KV; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:39 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=zyeupwyrXeIqsr/ZPTPPdwcEI+eC2d5Oh+nZu2kmkaU=; b=N+Jg7GH5bUcu r9/bENjqkds8hntNY3MSOenFGnsHL+ewrjmWGsCnmxqzBhTALJO8EAHKptaAVNh7LVNyiUqQoNEtu r9fZlswYevI0Gu/rvpiAolNNIvdvYa8qK+mIqE5E4RF7atIAVtEQj238XOBjaFdg2v5byjvVg+Vpb VsFmbCUt5aJ+yF6Knw4USfJ/ByHTuORgSC85nH/GY5IfaS56QmEG49avfukUHoRGuZU5XMh0su6vv wsODboRKBDQ9xIVB+6HkBnPbS6W8YQGVwD4IJv4caOLWA1mysOtK6x3RNYvFkDQ1HvFYQDTD8YuGN oTvqW1fkYWOwwuq7AmnMCg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:39 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Fri, 17 Feb 2023 12:49:06 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: <E1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:39 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > We never did agree to follow their rules. > I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the > manuals. At least to some degree. Yss, they do. The points in the Kind Communication Guidelines are not rules -- they don't draw precise lines. They are guidelines to apply, and how to apply them is a matter of judgment. We should never write anything to offend a demographic group. But when someone takes offense where no offense was intended, we have to judge the issue by its specifics. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 04:50:39 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 18 23:50:39 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45366 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pTbep-0006LJ-86 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34004) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTben-0006L4-64 for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:37 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTbef-0001Rr-Te; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=eKDtOQi+N2ykjRh8YeNWMVQBQ1tww61Jd99SkAvtnhk=; b=Fv271pwFFnP2 oPeiEF2GhVd8YBtpFFWnteimeqbdtWlmC6i+NYFbZsofHlmxOnzW5DHrl5OWeiVbYfKizh/MRqWHV 0yJNlZnK9wyrKG1ZQEo/JbSdDaENafG099VL2ARU2AH054A9kVwDxn2dob1dl0AEN5anY7AZs/jKn umyYR/3zJ3EnlWi26i01GeFPR8caV2bKjTWS6j2ZUPXFunEbQHyTdk1LpttHb9qJNeV33p0ZH3PYU RT+m5eFRdBFaA17FWp4l5Ddbb3Eh1Z0zt+y27mX3JEukIA9lQkK4SLwmC7JihSNpU4O0tzWWL6bIy rCAFHWmdrS6onhJ3WX6lAA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTbeH-0000AK-HM; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:06 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Jean Louis <bugs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <Y+8Pnkh2JmxTZn8u@HIDDEN> (message from Jean Louis on Fri, 17 Feb 2023 08:24:46 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=prWvofq-npfXH3MRQ9DpK=0auTGbs2QJF4=K1oLULyQ@HIDDEN> <Y+8Pnkh2JmxTZn8u@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1pTbeH-0000AK-HM@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:05 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, yantar92@HIDDEN, stefankangas@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that > > paragraph. I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll chastise > > me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the joke or > > even intended meaning of that paragraph is. > Why don't you ask Lars. There was no need for the answer to come from him in particular. > For single person's lack of insight, that shall not be deleted. I am not saying that joke should be deleted. I am saying that the manual needs to explain its serious points weriously, not just with jokes. It needs to what kill files do, and what scoring does, and how to use them. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 04:50:12 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 18 23:50:12 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45362 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pTbeN-0006KZ-Nk for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35256) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTbeK-0006KI-0D for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:09 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTbeE-00014w-8J; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=KNNgW3rsYLf0bJ93hyOgwu5A6ZNuhLkCv13kjJOc1n0=; b=a2BRVSVoEQsf cbUYdcg8mJJiFUXYyDXFviGm+YHgxXx7vo5uihqWzUGszx/+qWezE7rOHTWpaE/DBZZv+RkSvq4lh jEyUJvRubN5Q3JTisjrTRp9FfqhKcI/gniJ0vMMe2BEY+qYeCoT0KJRlDSTWrwfhgHOZAU1nfEiyY AbQqTDrSUp7qugYUlOS5lWnC0RHNCI0g5SPzr1M3e7MElv74zGhV6lmcSr7RBIgWuBdN90RPP3fDL ABzE7JqZcgBklp82Fxiz00sJAZMH5w+2ym6APMJ6icYDY8X3jCrmFSUuTsTqLx9sJndccDNzJ007m l2yt585HxeKSJVHFQCI0vA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTbeD-00009B-SI; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:01 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Jean Louis <bugs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <Y+8PILSCVENhytDU@HIDDEN> (message from Jean Louis on Fri, 17 Feb 2023 08:22:40 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <87sffg69yj.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> <Y+8PILSCVENhytDU@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1pTbeD-00009B-SI@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:01 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, yantar92@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > A kill file (also killfile, bozo bin or twit list) is a file used > by some Usenet reading programs to discard articles matching some > unwanted patterns of subject, author, or other header > lines. Adding a person or subject to one's kill file means that > person or topic will be ignored by one's newsreader in the > future. By extension, the term may be used for a decision to > ignore the person or subject in other media. I see. But the manual has to tell the reader this, if it mentions kill files at all. > More advanced newsreader software like Gnus sometimes provides a > more sophisticated form of filter known as scoring, where score > files are maintained which use fuzzy logic to apply arbitrarily > complex overlapping sets of rules to score articles up or down, > with articles being properly killed (ignored by the newsreader) > only when their weighted score drops below a user-defined > threshold. That seems like a useful feature. But the GNUS manual has to explain it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Feb 2023 16:21:21 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 18 11:21:21 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44765 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pTPxh-0002vb-6Y for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 11:21:21 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:56990) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pTNps-0007Vl-4F for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 09:05:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pTNpr-0003df-Nd for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 09:05:07 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pTNpp-0002PF-UD for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 09:05:07 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pTNpl-0004bB-V8 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 15:05:01 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: Petteri Hintsanen <petterih@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 15:59:39 +0200 Message-ID: <87edqn6pmc.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@HIDDEN> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:qiZIFysJkaDHNJD37nRc+Gnf9RQ= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 11:21:19 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable. > The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what > a sad world would that be! (Come to think about, the only way to > never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.) I tend to agree here. Looking at the big picture, Gnus manual is full of jokes, irony, self-deprecation, and other literary devices. It is a losing battle to try to somehow clean it up by cutting some, possibly objectionable or confusing, thorns. The manual is full of them. The whole manual should be rewritten, if one wants to have it written in "neutral" style -- whatever that would be. For the sake of argument, let's say that "without literary gimmicks of any kind." I _personally_ find the current Gnus manual a creative work that clearly reflects its author's personality, which I consider a benefit. For me the manual is mostly amusing, occasionally annoying, and, at some points, downright hilarious, like the completely out of scope "note" about hazy trance. OTOH, I like Lars' writing style and his sense of humor. I understand others may not. It's okay, we are different. As for adjusting the tone of the current manual, I don't see much return of investment. That energy would be better spent elsewhere. I'd leave the current manual as-is. Thanks, Petteri
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
To: rms@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
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Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes:
> That may be a key to making progress. If some readers can't understand
> the technical information, that is indisputably a problem. The question
> is how to fix it.
>
> Can you show is concretel what technical information is hard to understand
> for those who don't get the joke? I have never used GNUS.
The paragraph in question is
8 Scoring
=20=20=20=20
Other people use =E2=80=9Ckill files=E2=80=9D, but we here at Gnus Towe=
rs like scoring
better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight. They do
something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
attention!
The technical information is that unlike the concept of
"killing" [*] that may be familiar to Usenet software users, Gnus
introduces the idea of "scoring" [**]. Scoring is a more powerful (and
also faster [***] compared to killing. Gnus recommends using scoring
over killing.
I had to read forward, backward, and specifically search for keywords to
understand the above.
[*] "killing" in Gnus is, AFAIU, hiding (not deleting) threads that
match some criteria.
[**] First mentioned in 3.7 Group Score, but actually more general (does
not only apply to Groups). Score is a number assigned to Gnus
threads according to a number of criteria - each criteria (like
matching some words in subject/body) will increase/decrease the
total score. Gnus can then sort threads according to their score and
even hide threads with score below certain threshold.
[***] 8.13 Kill Files
In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a
lot_) than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite
your kill files into score files.
--=20
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Feb 2023 04:20:08 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 23:20:08 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42131 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pTEhj-0005L2-JO for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:20:08 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59550) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTEhb-0005J0-Ni for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:20:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTEhW-0007BS-B2; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=bGVWMGjklOK31hmIqVeyOLqBVTTf1lsz3ZC5UYyJ/J0=; b=B1JcAsKs2Epj hiypFoC5fRia6zTu1gmubHJKZnO7XwfdNa79ADedrK1yH3stdPURoCKp33cYLfH/ni7VeIrd/Hd92 tTuN83Z3ef9PTtLqjQ9QrlGq/NsxKzOWhGE9hv6XVrScJcZYjv8xciChaI77w6h/WbZfZwxyfJxUo DTOGbcBbjBGqDr0GwkM6USLsPuQcHYPBFr+grURq9km1E/nC2mtFPwVHYWE6E/HuoD3Zh8xwAk3Z9 HfMjEf2fk71BXc/G362lk0H7Veos/bOxwC4VX2yfsoGDRiNC5ZHVjkJ5jvwCIuul6PZur7artKKst v43Tsdy3LXe4pEC6N3LPUw==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTEhV-0001eG-P2; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:53 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <873577570z.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:37:32 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: <E1pTEhV-0001eG-P2@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:53 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their > > unrelated hgypersensitivities on others. They are demanding power > > which nobody should have. > I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics, > like sex, races, politics, etc? Nowadays there is a fashion for hypersensitivity; whatever the topic. If you approach within 50 feet, some will say "That's offensively close." No one is entitled to that much control over others. GNU manuals should not insult anyone, not even with a hint, except perhaps those who attack our freedom, for attacking our freedom. But we should not have to tiptoe through life lest some hypersensitive person take offense by association. > Or do you > mean that statements deliberately attacking/mocking people who use Gnus > (or certain parts/functions in Gnus) should be avoided? That is what I meant. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Feb 2023 04:20:00 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 23:20:00 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42127 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pTEhc-0005JH-9T for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:20:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59546) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTEha-0005Ix-AM for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:58 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTEhV-0007BH-3q; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:53 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=Hd1KBpPSEOvl9AsPlf7X1O4QDsjyqXKtoyYKblNlrew=; b=ji4BIqC3F4Ug k1+zQFsFsInMb4OnpNwebLjSSNt2pcyS5SwQmjABlbqv6bRg+zhvWmJ6lPaC3F6OzLPVKzmqTFacu 6TuTGlHwpfdfcTPUuV4hOaZliLiCfIgxTe0UwezYjwWKBhy4Bfw04Od9oNHTqAtrLttbm1Wm6Ujav G16wp2dVbAUcG9NqvzjYiwLcJYbj38lBJtBS6P50gYGO8ipeBH/ZLHO09GIA/B6/qbGfysfs7mmVF T1KwNgtuyskY/09gge5orrJjMa/AWDMipqAH/pXZ09wCgJKTwZLRhKrcHh4tTEwY9qTlKa/mgyEk9 Qxp+V0WPF81wEAz7lWqIDA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pTEhU-0001dq-SC; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:52 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:55:04 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: <E1pTEhU-0001dq-SC@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:52 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less > clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains > technical information that is hard to understand without understanding > the joke. That may be a key to making progress. If some readers can't understand the technical information, that is indisputably a problem. The question is how to fix it. Can you show is concretel what technical information is hard to understand for those who don't get the joke? I have never used GNUS. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
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Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes:
> Where are the jokes about politics or race in Emacs documentation?
No. I am asking it in more general context. Trying to align my
understanding of acceptable and not acceptable jokes.
There is a lot of disagreement in the interpretation as we can see, so
it would be useful to arrive at a common ground. Ideally, adding the
official stance to FSF maintenance policies, to the already existing
section on humour.
> Anyway, people who find such jokes offensive, instead of taking them in
> good humor, are not a ``significant number of people''. They are just
> very loud.
In my question, I specifically emphasized that I am talking about topics
sensitive for large groups of people - whole cultures.
> We never did agree to follow their rules.
I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the
manuals. At least to some degree.
<https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html>:
Please avoid statements about the presumed typical desires, capabilities
or actions of some demographic group. They can offend people in that
group, ...
...
If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas,
please make an effort to cater to them. You can find ways to express
the same points while making others more comfortable. You are more
likely to persuade others if you don't arouse ire about secondary
things.
I think that the above two guidelines can be applied to some of the
discussed jokes.
--
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Feb 2023 12:37:54 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 07:37:54 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38713 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pSzzt-0001HW-OA for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 07:37:54 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:60499) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pSzzs-0001HH-0J for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 07:37:52 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3073F2403BF for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:37:45 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676637466; bh=AcIUXfAE3NMO09aglJX4IvnWkcHz+/ykrxIQeKg4bqo=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=nJf+7AzvzdMA5cNP2XLJjC8Up/wgSKC1Pw/nuoFoXkZ0KR6QpyWuq7fKQAzxm1cM2 0MwaURh7KdZcUF8UwW3xh1I/lAbpPC4urGQt7t415GGjRyo1kDtHKJ1Z+/Cd1Coy7/ uXji16OX+8b5m0YZ/vSF0B1/J18DRKBIjBzIvG2kr7tMku4hUVzyPTpLxEi3Wa5xxZ p/ybGXMwu4RR14Jz+Yw/X9LHMC3uyzuEAqw0YzqPPlsYIjNcND6/3JTVkUMeTUQqna OplDaCV3KFLZugv9/aBIDADUBr2vPbFPGuGQ5HMr+ONytx1axFw238HXDQVIWsxxbT rbVsW26/OQ3iA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PJBD805yhz6tmF; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:37:43 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87k00is8kn.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <87sffg69yj.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> <87k00is8kn.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 12:38:21 +0000 Message-ID: <87k00gbh6q.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN>, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes: >> This sounds like a technical information being encoded into the joke. I >> did not get this information while reading because I did not understand >> the joke.=20 > > Maybe you need to spend some time on the Usenet? Why would I? For me, Gnus is first and foremost an email/rss reader. I am not interested in Usenet. I use scoring for reading rss feeds, not Usenet. >> I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files = mean: >> >> 8.13 Kill Files >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>=20=20=20=20=20 >> Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill f= ile >> entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel >> Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I=E2=80=99ve left the code = in there. > ... > Normal kill files look like this: > > (gnus-kill "From" "Lars Ingebrigtsen") > (gnus-kill "Subject" "ding") > (gnus-expunge "X") > > This will mark every article written by me as read, and remove the > marked articles from the summary buffer. Very useful, you=E2=80=99ll agr= ee. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Did you read this section or not? I did but I still don't understand what "kill file" means. Is it for marking articles read? Deleting articles from summary buffer? Something else? The text before the paragraph you underlined is saying that kill files are like hooks, which makes things even more confusing. Why not making it a simple hook then? Then, the manual says that "Other programs use a totally different kill file syntax". So, Gnus kill files are different from normal? What about "Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files"? There is no explanation what "pesky old kill files" mean despite multiple references where I am supposed to know this a-priori. --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Feb 2023 12:25:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 07:25:15 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38658 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pSzne-00070R-U8 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 07:25:15 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:35297) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pSznd-00070E-Dj for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 07:25:14 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E66C24040A for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:25:07 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676636707; bh=UvWW3rilaBVQO5rXAYeVkQEjUEHm6id7QsBMdyq9MXY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=A+oJCDTEjy1XZxpQG/v2o7pYDyzAjlig+KRiJslRcQyXjvYAFf5FxwOoMQ9HE4DYX JmiBxBMqhWGEtsybFp9PUtPus1Nddpk5EfKMbg3va0SD7DSTLN2DvYIkl7cA9nALa1 cjcHS+5/bYJZPjZKTl1uzIQoBWYD0MUYlEM/pwOhbCIqAeTBJwyORJC5JZN4DdTCYb rsj3tbBdxSplkvMwqvA0uriS4U8RJ4LaH/DIC7GsijLqzBRAyEZWLIcLad/t+GD+ya bj+QwpKHKR7dc7J0scElYc/wPks9Kzkv4fSixtaoNBdVccQok1pss+fdavFGYS4c3s hCfsLeVTue0lg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PJ9xZ0wF9z9rxL; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:25:05 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87fsb6s8ih.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> <87fsb6s8ih.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 12:25:43 +0000 Message-ID: <87mt5cbhrs.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes: > Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > >> No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less >> clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains >> technical information that is hard to understand without understanding >> the joke. > > But then that information is explained further down. Do you mean in different section? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 08:24:46 +0300
From: Jean Louis <bugs@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
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Content preview: * Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> [2023-02-15 18:36]:
> Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes: > > > > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
> > > > > > > > Note: > > > > > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while si [...]
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Content preview: * Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> [2023-02-15 18:36]:
> Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes: > > > > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
> > > > > > > > Note: > > > > > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while si [...]
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* Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> [2023-02-15 18:36]:
> Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
> > > >
> > > > Note:
> > > >
> > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
> > > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
> > > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
> > > > back of her plastic chair.
> > > >
> > > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
> > > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
> > > > find this section insulting.
> >
> > I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting.
> > I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny.
> > I can't make sense of it at all.
> >
> > Would someone who understands it please explain the joke?
>
> Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that
> paragraph. I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll chastise
> me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the joke or
> even intended meaning of that paragraph is.
Why don't you ask Lars.
For single person's lack of insight, that shall not be deleted.
Especially if you did not live while reading newsgroups.
--
Jean
Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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From: Jean Louis <bugs@HIDDEN>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
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Content preview: * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> [2023-02-15 17:49]:
> > May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what
> kill files are? > > I only found the following, but there is no [...]
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Content preview: * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> [2023-02-15 17:49]:
> > May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what
> kill files are? > > I only found the following, but there is no [...]
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* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> [2023-02-15 17:49]:
>
> May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what
> kill files are?
>
> I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files mean:
>
> 8.13 Kill Files
> ===============
>
> Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill file
> entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
> Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I’ve left the code in there.
Ask Internet.
Kill file - Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.
Find sources: "Kill file" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR (September 2015) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
A kill file (also killfile, bozo bin or twit list) is a file used by some Usenet reading programs to discard articles matching some unwanted patterns of subject, author, or other header lines. Adding a person or subject to one's kill file means that person or topic will be ignored by one's newsreader in the future. By extension, the term may be used for a decision to ignore the person or subject in other media.
Kill files were first implemented in Larry Wall's rn. Sometimes more than one kill file will be used. Some newsreader programs also allow the user to specify a time period to keep an author in the kill file.
Web-based forums, including at least some web-based Usenet portals, often have a similar but usually simpler feature called an ignore list, which hides any posts by a specific user, though typically without the ability to ignore posts for reasons other than the username of origin.
More advanced newsreader software like Gnus sometimes provides a more sophisticated form of filter known as scoring, where score files are maintained which use fuzzy logic to apply arbitrarily complex overlapping sets of rules to score articles up or down, with articles being properly killed (ignored by the newsreader) only when their weighted score drops below a user-defined threshold. For example, articles might be score killed iff they violate too many low-weighted stylistic rules (e.g. containing too many capital letters or too little punctuation, implying an annoying reading experience), or only one or two highly-weighted rules (such as the body containing objectionable keywords or the origin being a known source of spam).[1]
--
Jean
Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
In support of Richard M. Stallman
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Feb 2023 01:37:00 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 20:37:00 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34522 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pSTCm-0006yT-2d for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 20:37:00 -0500 Received: from sonic317-2.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.229]:43365) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <luangruo@HIDDEN>) id 1pSTCj-0006yD-Po for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 20:36:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676511411; bh=tcqau0o6ADbEPO9RpfiKdYtmErqVbbJC5EQERTa5MSo=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=hx7lSuc9npeiCZNdDBSrGlmRYQ8wuiIX5s/gZvnxgxsz2uq1uO/5hsTzfI76qAv6+YeBBgKA9VotQiyV7F/1Phg964d1Cn3HGFq7kxv8TyODS+ZhCyp/frth3NOMOwrDSkQtQKodSjXvKz0EXsWL4MEtlmSa008O7d1QrDkpHY6pKZsCR4MSlCAX75sebeQfNL/SCfk647Kz58TOtmYfU40SbxfdaluJru/z6ivjzI/kIMhG5SIwY7frmu8IOOwk7+teHRybMvLDp2FWcUB6qaRxoCFIlrk/pzKBMXMoiIZvexCojKKNqgb1krSBsBia5FQqRJ0mt1IEs9DjI4VxXw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676511411; bh=UEaKxvP1jmvzZxmE4yR581gkp11ii2WGoTQCz1UNcGl=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=tW0DuOvk0BmKzN7VsbMo5vRlTJBSh/3CbsaRLTBRs7X4W16Tx8qXZ8YBMkDHgo//0lHsaHlg4dmnHlIXy5+ss8qLrbU5GiQd17WDQvnm/6qO12qdRLb983+159brArrE1pQK06hA+cUx31tA5zHXmMpxn9SaTyjWCK3CL4XPbHaAZNWNtd6KoYg/eGkajob1FgVqmskX6JfTPL53t9zR0ouYY27aYUSjuedpV6VCuWe1b2F53BN0uQYiBnqxlCLDsmGa1qy0ExTxgxe4YZNOgdqlcRasuOwKo5NUq25oECcBrN7pds8N2OBKoK4LBT/8hleTSHbLTkNB6Wg8Ne+Qog== X-YMail-OSG: GtLxLBYVM1ndDyeYE_jjSGpDi6dVhZROXMmQNLTtU6CLmVMHjaZhJC0s.Ac4cQv pQ7Z.sZeUQ4o9orAg_z8tzkTVhlAH_twuUsFDlpSCs1eGiODyZQAoqH5YnX9P8Fhe_.Cv5A7mkbO C101YOsaSZVQ90gGH.RsJ.JK091nqo4Tt3W6L0r6s5S.4Vc25fVkKRAZ915e1qN0KdoGKr8vstpJ 4nl1x4jj7T0DFbJzUx0wq4H5cfKTjIcv68kBvqie95.9RGXJJ_OsqqutgBAz7Ws34M0bPIjolwG. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 43bdfadf6529a4a808f319db29f7c0da; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 01:34:48 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <873577570z.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:37:32 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 09:34:28 +0800 Message-ID: <875yc2s89n.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 788 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics, > like sex, races, politics, etc? If such a topic must be mentioned as a > part of technical description, I see no problem with mentioning such > topics out of necessity. However, jokes in the manual are supposed to > either raise positive feelings or at least be neutral. If we know in > advance that a significant number of people will be annoyed by certain > kinds of jokes, are such jokes worth it? Where are the jokes about politics or race in Emacs documentation? Anyway, people who find such jokes offensive, instead of taking them in good humor, are not a ``significant number of people''. They are just very loud. We never did agree to follow their rules.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e4f4cf6b04671a4667f19f5fe6e9551f; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 01:29:30 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:55:04 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 09:29:10 +0800 Message-ID: <87fsb6s8ih.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 681 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less > clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains > technical information that is hard to understand without understanding > the joke. But then that information is explained further down. > I am not asking to delete every single joke. I am asking to change or > delete the jokes that impair ability of the manual to explain the > technical information. Note that I specifically listed concrete jokes in > the initial report. I disagree that those jokes prevent the manual from being understood by people with normal reading comprehension skills.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
In-Reply-To: <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 15
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Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes:
> Will it be ok to do such replacement?
That's Lars' call, not mine.
> This sounds like a technical information being encoded into the joke. I
> did not get this information while reading because I did not understand
> the joke.=20
Maybe you need to spend some time on the Usenet?
> May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what
> kill files are?
>
> I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files m=
ean:
>
> 8.13 Kill Files
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20=20=20=20=20
> Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill fi=
le
> entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
> Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I=E2=80=99ve left the code i=
n there.
8.13 Kill Files
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill file
entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I=E2=80=99ve left the code in ther=
e.
In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a lot_)
than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite your kill
files into score files.
Anyway, a kill file is a normal =E2=80=98emacs-lisp=E2=80=99 file. You =
can put any
forms into this file, which means that you can use kill files as some
sort of primitive hook function to be run on group entry, even though
that isn=E2=80=99t a very good idea.
Normal kill files look like this:
(gnus-kill "From" "Lars Ingebrigtsen")
(gnus-kill "Subject" "ding")
(gnus-expunge "X")
This will mark every article written by me as read, and remove the
marked articles from the summary buffer. Very useful, you=E2=80=99ll agree.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Did you read this section or not?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=prWvofq-npfXH3MRQ9DpK=0auTGbs2QJF4=K1oLULyQ@HIDDEN>
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>>>>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:02 -0500, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail=
.com> said:
Stefan> Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes:
>> > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
>> > >
>> > > Note:
>> > >
>> > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt he=
r feet
>> > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the =
boy
>> > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil acro=
ss the
>> > > back of her plastic chair.
>> > >
>> > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
>> > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one ot=
her user
>> > > find this section insulting.
>>=20
>> I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting.
>> I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny.
>> I can't make sense of it at all.
>>=20
>> Would someone who understands it please explain the joke?
Stefan> Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that
Stefan> paragraph. I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll c=
hastise
Stefan> me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the =
joke or
Stefan> even intended meaning of that paragraph is.
<sigh> One of the more enjoyable things in life is reading some of
Lars=CA=BC whimsy in the Gnus manual, which I doubt is meant to be fully
understood. It saddens me that the reaction to it is to remove it.
(and to whoever it was that found that bit insulting, I can only say
"what?!")
Robert
--=20
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Feb 2023 15:34:11 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 10:34:11 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33648 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pSJnO-0007Sh-Kh for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:11 -0500 Received: from mail-ot1-f51.google.com ([209.85.210.51]:44813) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1pSJnM-0007SP-Mq for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:09 -0500 Received: by mail-ot1-f51.google.com with SMTP id 38-20020a9d04a9000000b0068f24f576c5so5517867otm.11 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 07:34:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+CL59otRqM4aSJ+P3luxsmDoT+Olfb2JeIb7IY5LBw4=; b=ncpPhwga1N6EnyI5MyD0yBGIcrTpkRXTgZL6MU7Ahd2r6oc36j6CBj4hDyDCc95Nsz VDbxBdFJCsOx3lQGHZgbVIvt6q8b36Bxjmak6VE+PfHGAE4iwav0TBbLMG6KBs/5pFrz H49G3945MyLdB3sOWE2hnZdwhuTSQQRNQMvroqvUoo2gJIqe6Rffgc0AaR33ryiRj2LS JrY2vwC3Ot/vvk/3rXg4WliZRiw0MaknF4eO+I3diGry6tbKkR9mVchSY/x6tMjup+fM UBD9wquzrn6Dpiz6ofnPGM6nYnuwU3OHFoKvJVJqyCWhR0JeLRGUUhaLeAPkl6VKXsom rMPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+CL59otRqM4aSJ+P3luxsmDoT+Olfb2JeIb7IY5LBw4=; b=47aHZ4A5rHj7sHp4wh4EnhS/vKind40s/HqFUMQybK3U20gL+xw7ahj+bU+hDQicqv t37ayRlZPowuBfvemWjyFjKSukWHt4eXMMGSxocx06l3O/8Js2AeR55/atAxXCkSs2A0 yUd+uhiBXV2XIDH+30fLvnEi9RcCE/7ginatcKi5Pb3yyj9XKyEuD/Wnw9hOMmJwbOnp UXLwz8BtNXc+suQCnnrL4x+KHOjc8iX0PmBtoRUkljmNokM7hrKvOgNBnvgtPeta3CUH TG6YLXCot+e0QxJ3GLe276UFGQb4/jmaTkJAvZE4eurCXC7AgyI6+44Oh2K0hJHpTDG3 Frgw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXGBd6EekEW+5WeX8+qsj0aNtFo+q5gkD06k86Y2MjS26ezT2Gj GUNvVo6LQYlSl5T8E7luHQfzTcXOoVayxH/Rjhg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9npbU9TU1tkZpLBzYkFXb8WKC0Cz50jIpzba9ffxxl3/s8SMQP4TlwsWl7AabkAir3VF2i36qytMIX5xm/3oE= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6406:0:b0:690:bf1e:9ef4 with SMTP id h6-20020a9d6406000000b00690bf1e9ef4mr119344otl.129.1676475242989; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 07:34:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:02 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> X-Hashcash: 1:20:230215:rms@HIDDEN::zltAkD+iGGGkQrp1:FRzO MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:02 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkm=prWvofq-npfXH3MRQ9DpK=0auTGbs2QJF4=K1oLULyQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual To: rms@HIDDEN, Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes: > > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > > > > > Note: > > > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > > > back of her plastic chair. > > > > > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > > > find this section insulting. > > I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting. > I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny. > I can't make sense of it at all. > > Would someone who understands it please explain the joke? Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that paragraph. I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll chastise me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the joke or even intended meaning of that paragraph is.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Feb 2023 14:54:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 09:54:37 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58464 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pSJB6-0005bX-W5 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:54:37 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:56423) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pSJB4-0005bJ-Bu for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:54:34 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B15C924045A for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:54:28 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676472868; bh=lyR/MHLeH6SHJKW+0yXNu86v0kvd/07etVwCp0/VWSI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=oCwun63WoZpQZZiqGtyme3ArBcP/3tD4skUCXJbM3xcpM83TdaNVNEKtKtEskhpzj KnECt/3sBcc0vMyiD3sk1322IxfNxDmwofQmJBXwjsoaCHqWQOSdGqrnJ6ifoF79A3 qZS3y2jhqHVgqRYuY0uCz7BaFbhHimnzKaWlC6s6imJqeBqIkGmZJ5NRfGZde+z8m+ hXMAn7SbMEQDRYX828w9Q/sDCfPr4c89C2XuaeOeJxjZc+V2EhKo+28cOcS0vje8kL MWftbrmtmgSGyVsgLQ0sqNgRD4DOtQV2q2x7u8eaP4KwWhBPDEksIYK4s1GGAodaMc FovLDs6urgBLg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PH1Lq2n5kz9rxK; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:54:27 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87cz6k5njc.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:55:04 +0000 Message-ID: <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes: > Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > >> Please, do not use appeal to ridicule. > > But that's the point. > > Most people will find ridiculous that the following paragraph: > > Other people use ``kill files'', but we here at Gnus Towers like > scoring better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight.= They > do something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > attention! > > makes the subsequent four paragraphs describing score files less clear: No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains technical information that is hard to understand without understanding the joke. > Asking us to delete every joke that someone finds confusing is not far > from those lines, and is in fact a very slippery slope leading directly > to that proposal. I am not asking to delete every single joke. I am asking to change or delete the jokes that impair ability of the manual to explain the technical information. Note that I specifically listed concrete jokes in the initial report. --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
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Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes:
> Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> This seems to be trying to create humor by simply referring to sex.
>> I "get the joke," but it doesn't seem to be very funny. This part
>
> If you replace ``sex'' with, say, ``kayaking'', the meaning of the joke
> stays unchanged.
Will it be ok to do such replacement?
> The joke is that it is possible to sort completely unrelated newsgroup
> into categories.
This sounds like a technical information being encoded into the joke. I
did not get this information while reading because I did not understand
the joke.=20
>> I presume the Gnus manual explains what a kill file is, for readers
>> who do not know. If not, we should add that.
>
> It explains both what kill and score files are, and why score files
> should be preferred instead.
May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what
kill files are?
I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files mea=
n:
8.13 Kill Files
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=20=20=20=20
Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill file
entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I=E2=80=99ve left the code in =
there.
--=20
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Feb 2023 14:37:12 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 09:37:12 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58386 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pSIuF-000527-Uc for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:37:12 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:33747) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pSIuB-00051o-Tp for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:37:10 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C1D0240035 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:37:01 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676471822; bh=kuJ9HOOcgH86/94L4El+PtI/O1DDJ0I2hIK8BAQZEZY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=oXRqGTJ64B4HyYi+8c/kDlHzpLwmOf/R+AFU5L4tQRRqyXjjRVP8jjw0+8U+JRV/7 zf87Vj8uQ9I9o7Y40qF8/iOuolSTs8sV8y0Hje4xQc6ZKTjj5zRHKiOOYGWQgSpRR1 x9dpprqxz+VQN1SM2BFXXdihw2DdDvCZg5oOHNvqBLQ6n4iFPJ2QYWsiufSQDQ8XHP oqJ4IyMfEwHuYy1LDBW23cdbA88Ri94cpT8FPLtls7qJnUPidVaEP2ZTv3uPyZKBXc Q6UrIZ9n3PW49WH07FqrKVNAsShahzUVbFGayARirHc6MQ9V1JZq8agvY/xM5koRHR Bh/MQOnCnjoYQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PH0yg5vd9z9rxR; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:36:58 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: rms@HIDDEN Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:37:32 +0000 Message-ID: <873577570z.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes: > > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > > > > > Note: > > > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > > > back of her plastic chair. > > > > > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > > > find this section insulting. > > I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting. Upon checking again with the person who initially reported the issue with this particular note, I found that the part about insulting was rather theoretical. The argument was that someone who had bad experiences with bullying might feel insulted. I now find such argument insufficient to call the note insulting. It is not the only problem with this note though. > I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny. > I can't make sense of it at all. I had the same feeling upon reading section 3.15. Now, when it was pointed that this is supposed to be a joke, I can see that it is trying to play around the concept of "suspend". > We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their > unrelated hgypersensitivities on others. They are demanding power > which nobody should have. I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics, like sex, races, politics, etc? If such a topic must be mentioned as a part of technical description, I see no problem with mentioning such topics out of necessity. However, jokes in the manual are supposed to either raise positive feelings or at least be neutral. If we know in advance that a significant number of people will be annoyed by certain kinds of jokes, are such jokes worth it? > However, jokes that make people feel mocked _because they use Gnus_ > are unfriendly to our users. We should remove those. May you elaborate? Reading the manual is a part of using Gnus. Or do you mean that statements deliberately attacking/mocking people who use Gnus (or certain parts/functions in Gnus) should be avoided? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Feb 2023 13:47:27 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 14 08:47:27 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52921 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pRveY-0001Cy-T8 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 08:47:27 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:52629) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <bugs@HIDDEN>) id 1pRveX-0001Cp-Hs for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 08:47:26 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.85.204.48]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103952.0000000063EB90EE.0000102B; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 06:47:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 14:17:49 +0300 From: Jean Louis <bugs@HIDDEN> To: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: <Y+tt3e5bTpbKpd1/@protected.localdomain> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <Y+iIGGMvruU8ROcg@HIDDEN> <E1pRnIF-0005Q8-PN@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <E1pRnIF-0005Q8-PN@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> [2023-02-14 07:52]: > > > 8 Scoring has > > > > > > Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring > > > better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight. They do > > > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > > > attention! > > Can anyone explain that joke to me? I don't get it. Examine definitions below, and go back in time of reading newsgroups: * Overview of noun score The noun score has 11 senses (first 6 from tagged texts) 1. (18) mark, grade, score -- (a number or letter indicating quality (especially of a student's performance); "she made good marks in algebra"; "grade A milk"; "what was your score on your homework?") 2. (8) score, musical score -- (a written form of a musical composition; parts for different instruments appear on separate staves on large pages; "he studied the score of the sonata") 3. (4) score -- (a number that expresses the accomplishment of a team or an individual in a game or contest; "the score was 7 to 0") 4. (4) score -- (a set of twenty members; "a score were sent out but only one returned") 5. (1) score, account -- (grounds; "don't do it on my account"; "the paper was rejected on account of its length"; "he tried to blame the victim but his success on that score was doubtful") 6. (1) score -- (the facts about an actual situation; "he didn't know the score") 7. score -- (an amount due (as at a restaurant or bar); "add it to my score and I'll settle later") 8. score, scotch -- (a slight surface cut (especially a notch that is made to keep a tally)) 9. grudge, score, grievance -- (a resentment strong enough to justify retaliation; "holding a grudge"; "settling a score") 10. score -- (the act of scoring in a game or sport; "the winning score came with less than a minute left to play") 11. sexual conquest, score -- (a seduction culminating in sexual intercourse; "calling his seduction of the girl a `score' was a typical example of male slang") -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Feb 2023 04:52:02 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 13 23:52:02 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52260 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pRnIP-0000VT-NC for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2023 23:52:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43132) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pRnIM-0000VA-Kf for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2023 23:52:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pRnIG-0004Od-7Q; Mon, 13 Feb 2023 23:51:52 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=WTXBAvJAgqWbLN5PSIcgxymCn1miS9cPZevBAMbp/5g=; b=LPrF5BbQgPTb ucaQEI/AA7d6koJ8OGRFAEUtgFX8qovXKbYFygXBNe6/8HsuoVMiNN0aJoRWZEEtpL4kqz/B+XKz7 3irc1ol7/ODM6A0pCleB8e3Lvuwdj6eavMbIFtfC9JRdHAZxoHCnEMp6M5JKdpFZrPflIIQ8eOZby mop5SWKU+C5xBQR6cddmYUxn/4GedYq2WK7LHfg5lY1mYgGbHt2pUHcI4T0zI6HLAuApzy39Y8zUI KHNRoy3A0GoKuAf4BrMTTtfxgqoJoW8PIJSvdvSTD2PBRiu8Ly5cNme4UIkOmE7DudciHS4XFbwLV 05WPhyyu9359XbMyYZPHSg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pRnIF-0005Q8-PN; Mon, 13 Feb 2023 23:51:51 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Jean Louis <bugs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <Y+iIGGMvruU8ROcg@HIDDEN> (message from Jean Louis on Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:32:56 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <Y+iIGGMvruU8ROcg@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1pRnIF-0005Q8-PN@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 23:51:51 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > ‘z’ > > Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’). This doesn’t really exit > > Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I’m not > > sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge? > > > > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function > > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused. I too feel confused by that patricular joke. Being a joke is not bad, but confusing the reader is bad. So I think it should be deleted. It poses a question which is a good question, but fails to answer it. Is the suspend command useful? I guess that it is or was useful for some people. Can anyone say why it was useful? How about replacing a joke with an explanation? > > 8 Scoring has > > > > Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring > > better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight. They do > > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > > attention! Can anyone explain that joke to me? I don't get it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 06:56:45 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 12 01:56:45 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43916 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pR6I1-0005GO-Co for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:45 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:38711) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <bugs@HIDDEN>) id 1pR6Hz-0005Fk-3u for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:43 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.87.28.92]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103956.0000000063E88DAE.00007BB9; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:56:46 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:56:10 +0300 From: Jean Louis <bugs@HIDDEN> To: Visuwesh <visuweshm@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: <Y+iNiolioPGA8A2+@protected.localdomain> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4sb7el.fsf@HIDDEN> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87wn4sb7el.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Visuwesh <visuweshm@HIDDEN> [2023-02-08 16:44]: > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > > > Note: > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > > back of her plastic chair. > > > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > > find this section insulting. > > I am not sure what this person finds insulting. I am not sure if you > referred to this when you wrote "female bullying" in another thread, but > what I visualise when I read this is much more innocent and does not > have anything offensive. OTOH, I do agree this paragraph sticks out and > seemingly serves no useful info. Art is perceived by audience. Every user, every reader, can add to the author's idea. It may be different to different users. I get the feeling of what happens when "Exiting Gnus". What is the stage when you exit the world of reading newsgroups? How does it feel? User is in one world "Gnus" or "news", reading newsgroups, it is specific world where mind is occupied and does not focus on the environment. How does it feel when user get out of that news environment? It is similar as waking up from a dream. It is similar as opening eyes and seeing something totally different! It shows the feeling of author contrast of the environment and feeling of a user as to how it feels when you exit Gnus. Maybe it is Miss Lisa Cannifax in English class, or plethora of other variations. It is awakening. And Miss Lisa Cannifax helps reader awake to. There is message from author right there. I maybe see it, maybe not. But I see what I feel. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 06:56:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 12 01:56:42 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43913 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pR6Hx-0005G9-UG for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:42 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:38711) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <bugs@HIDDEN>) id 1pR6Hv-0005Fk-Kn for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:40 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.87.28.92]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103950.0000000063E88DAB.00007BAF; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:56:42 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:46:58 +0300 From: Jean Louis <bugs@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: <Y+iLYgNgB+DAHnag@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <87sffg69yj.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87sffg69yj.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@HIDDEN, Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN>, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> [2023-02-08 07:50]: > It explains both what kill and score files are, and why score files > should be preferred instead. * Overview of verb score The verb score has 7 senses (first 3 from tagged texts) 1. (18) score, hit, tally, rack up -- (gain points in a game; "The home team scored many times"; "He hit a home run"; "He hit .300 in the past season") 2. (12) score, nock, mark -- (make small marks into the surface of; "score the clay before firing it") 3. (3) score, mark -- (make underscoring marks) 4. score -- (write a musical score for) 5. seduce, score, make -- (induce to have sex; "Harry finally seduced Sally"; "Did you score last night?"; "Harry made Sally") 6. score -- (get a certain number or letter indicating quality or performance; "She scored high on the SAT"; "He scored a 200") 7. grade, score, mark -- (assign a grade or rank to, according to one's evaluation; "grade tests"; "score the SAT essays"; "mark homework") I totally got why scoring is preferred over killing. 😀n I am not really "grown up" despite the age, so it's easy to get the double meaning of it. Do you get it Po Lu? -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 06:56:39 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 12 01:56:38 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43910 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pR6Hu-0005Fs-KM for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:38 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:38711) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <bugs@HIDDEN>) id 1pR6Hs-0005Fk-JE for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:37 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.87.28.92]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103950.0000000063E88DA7.00007B9D; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:56:38 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:38:31 +0300 From: Jean Louis <bugs@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: <Y+iJZ9EdpQBvz1bE@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> [2023-02-07 19:16]: > Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs > survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without > jokes Poll for jokes... either it is funny for somebody, or not funny for somebody, it is personal, there is no poll about personality, it is how it is. You are experiencing the author, not the robotic technical manual! Why not be happy for that. You see, those jokes also wait for this discussion to take place! What a great "program" by writing simple text. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 06:33:58 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 12 01:33:58 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43895 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pR5vx-0004Rt-9m for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:33:58 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:44371) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <bugs@HIDDEN>) id 1pR5vs-0004RR-FB for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:33:53 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.87.28.92]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103951.0000000063E88852.00007917; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:33:54 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:32:56 +0300 From: Jean Louis <bugs@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: <Y+iIGGMvruU8ROcg@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> [2023-02-06 19:03]: > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > Note: > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > back of her plastic chair. 😆 Come on! It is good we have Info manuals of this type! A joke need not be joke for person A, can be for person B, can be dedicated to person C, can be hidden, there are millions of variations. Nobody is expected to be literate, or to have sense of humour. No joke is for everybody to be accepted or understandable. > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other > user find this section insulting. Haven thanks manual is not robotic! Though even robots would find it insulting! > Further, the last sentence in > > ‘z’ > Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’). This doesn’t really exit > Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I’m not > sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge? > > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused. It is fine to ask about it. It makes the whole system personal and ex(c)iting. When I read books of Edgar Allan Poe I also do not understand every word and meanings of the author, and I have to research a bit and dwell and go in the past, that is the point of writing, as many writings are a look into history and environment of the author. Removing such writing to "comply" to today's expectancy, removes personality of the author and diminishes the culture and art of it. Instead, to help the today's reader, one only has to add maybe few footnotes or hyperlinks for reader to understand what was meant at the time. > 3.16 Group Topics > > If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group > them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over > here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?) > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can > even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs > groups or the sex groups—or both! Go wild! 😆 In my age I get the feeling fully! This even makes me subscribe to newsgroups. That is exactly what people do. Why not make fun out of what people actually do? No, I would never remove this part of joy from manual. > Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic, > often negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users) There is world on this planet, and that world is not self-centric. No matter of religion, there is always more beyond that. That is for the user to understand and grow up out of it. Or not. > I simply feel disoriented while trying to read this paragraph. He he he, why not subscribe to newsgroups and try it out. > I can understand the first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a > joke? Or are there useful pieces of information coded inside? Why be robotic and have it all strict, straight, and explicitly useful. Is that not bringing you a bit out o balance and habits of reading technical documentation? Isn't it good that author talks to you in funny way? It is similar to a child being approached by rather unknown adult person, some children will accept it and get along, some will start crying. It is a process of growing up, at some point, same child will be able to confront the unknown (not only people) and feel confident. > 8 Scoring has > > Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring > better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight. They do > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > attention! Keep the culture, only understand it, and add footnotes for people though I don't think is necessary. All your questions will be answered by understanding why Lars wrote Gnus. Hahahahahha. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 06:33:53 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 12 01:33:53 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43893 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pR5vs-0004Rc-TX for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:33:53 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:44371) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <bugs@HIDDEN>) id 1pR5vo-0004RR-Rj for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:33:51 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.87.28.92]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103950.0000000063E8884F.00007908; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:33:50 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:11:36 +0300 From: Jean Louis <bugs@HIDDEN> To: dick <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: <Y+iDGK7eVAW5+HIw@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87r0v2rcjj.fsf@dick> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87r0v2rcjj.fsf@dick> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * dick <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN> [2023-02-06 20:51]: > Gnus is, by current standards, largely shit software, so its manual > is oddly fitting. I wouldn't worry about it. Bad manners, dick! I recommend reading books about etiquette for personal improvement. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 04:03:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 11 23:03:37 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43727 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pR3aT-0000EC-Eg for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:03:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54760) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pR3aR-0000Dv-K3 for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:03:36 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pR3aL-0001MR-AF; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:03:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=i4tC39pmIAigdHHunsJQgzB4GrzOrvzobGsc4c2RQ4s=; b=sH4r7JvlVhy8 XY/SabdWKUd/KWSHgZb/sn7AeKXzcLH9t8m8RUyeG2JN7ccuxjPvgbOS81nnGHSMf5A3ouq68dSLh ua+dB6N7E5/bBtwb07pp6J3vX6t2CUmQOKWSJv5r7RC27CeoAv6aI0/OIaVG5RX+NdeWDOcZZ3gID zaRiPkbjfq784YlQsn+H+WDe1Si0dBh+YOpVUPC+M+kicTY3poIYGAHSUYIJxA2ezyYPU4IBoQWkq /MaQit4yF3XiyLxEuai2xDv1bI8oebvrGHwUkCE9OSMG65jXpQuXpeKlsrDlYsP26dfl6JHxyj0im E7v7jOimid8rGcLHdWKsOA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pR3aK-0006Ww-9p; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:03:28 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Akib Azmain Turja <akib@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87mt5mhjpl.fsf@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1tre3.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPyXe-0004eR-2f@HIDDEN> <87mt5mhjpl.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1pR3aK-0006Ww-9p@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:03:28 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, yantar92@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] That joke is not particularly funny, and doesn't make an interesting point. To delete it would be no great loss. However, it is not horrible either. > A 13 year would be offended by that quotation, I think. (At least in my > culture.) That may be true -- I don't know. But we are not part of your culture and never agreed to follow its rules. You and the others who practice your culture are not entitled to demand obedience from everyone else. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 16:46:36 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 09 11:46:36 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33520 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pQA4C-0004bj-1O for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2023 11:46:36 -0500 Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]:44458) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <akib@HIDDEN>) id 1pQA49-0004ba-GF for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2023 11:46:34 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3970C4154C; Thu, 9 Feb 2023 17:46:32 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: SPAM Filter at disroot.org Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nR6XDaD9Op5I; Thu, 9 Feb 2023 17:46:31 +0100 (CET) From: Akib Azmain Turja <akib@HIDDEN> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1675961191; bh=KOi4z2xecKJNeCHKfxnHW+qc4ujJfYZW8qSqurYBFgY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=L/ruo/SgrKmDwYMG8ynz3KNXQ//iILgf9iZuNnVfI2adpq0h1Kub7QDP7dhoQ/Xrc Z/6rDdhDzPp3AcS8oY/Vhc1fbJbrDiv8cAmKxY3OpF2TzKQCjL41R8M7F1Y4Kfg1Jz qRkirUPj/zquUFfrSv5G6rTzrCWsqs6/EWEF0v1YVlsFMd/wfKL2k36UhZlgSEP/ne pUETliaDuBQStY3C7vNTRYvR68/OAsPLb/jDoKxx2T38EcD0qKFwTgL2kOp2BUX+zq LZ3vh9hm8QndKMbID5iyf8zF63t4AUSaEPdZcyslbExhI7J3wdxyC2MvCU7jU8a+UU iyxrcvAmOSdOA== To: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <E1pPyXe-0004eR-2f@HIDDEN> (Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:14 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1tre3.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPyXe-0004eR-2f@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2023 22:44:38 +0600 Message-ID: <87mt5mhjpl.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, yantar92@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > However, the text at the very end of the Top node of Texinfo manual is > > even more offensive (for many): > > I can see how people who feel they are romantic > failures could start to cry on reading that joke, > but I see nothing that is offensive in it. A 13 year would be offended by that quotation, I think. (At least in my culture.) =2D-=20 Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5 Fediverse: akib@HIDDEN Codeberg: akib emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption." --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEyVTKmrtL6kNBe3FRVTX89U2IYWsFAmPlIvYACgkQVTX89U2I YWvL7w//eigxJFdO15Zo7oztJfIpQNx+VUKOdKOqBQQrqxkFXldpRxSNNfRaGbRL hs0NxLO+M8YOww0qavR1Gn8Oc+CLKJIkzlxu4Nd4vRRjHZfX2DbZ6a2kj9O5j5oL oIlWp1jxl9tL2gm8YP++DkcNQIyah2DremgA9pZKZ37i7dQ775WnIC8lmYaHVDUl MDGjpsIf/pkFt0R4CRIymK3cWJ9AAYu5Fs6msRgiZee8EJYdqiXa6P0QWrItoDUJ Nbu09rB+KOL8SJMEN4qnlW1mp8QH1nFObcG3QvW4vD61qnZLBmiX472lKmc9iVD6 dPh9TRAi3qaDzEoJUKlQvGrM81Apu9/d1yzqPVgse0xRej5zdnUV8M6OmqAPXbCj oeDp+DEO4Bop7IpjELlVLguH1qca2n76mzqUXmT1s+zEHJtLkg1ZfrlnbxWZwLYf ZZgY0OiEEjVtGVemIX1f5m/7HmDkjDWuc5nmVBgSHiOuGuR7wQiEERU8KZua+uBX yLclbgzQFsjBXyAubDRdjZcUlLtlAA3UAFOts3dkBywxJNdWOn1k9SA6ekDJsurk sSrX0S4c/rgVpdKCnBL1OeMBs8D1je2Agg3b5iAdY/HFbB14ur4bBJBJWxleblaG NNxYMmyigyUC1BMrvRSnrDBJw3TG2QHU7kncHfDqpWnxCvMxxDs= =63AJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 04:28:31 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 23:28:31 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57187 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPyXv-0001WT-5m for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48614) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pPyXr-0001Vu-Tn for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pPyXm-0005lF-MP; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=BdJIdu79E+YHO/KSClTX7xhNafot2ONRTFypL+XRiJw=; b=PFkrkPLNrfU3 UaHxQ0MYttxDgO26JO3gYCh2dxUwIsKqYsJnp8UWFDCYephG7Pl07dzEEJP9p11ibvt2pvG2hnwk4 CfN0IDuO7oDSFhZaj3bR4XkCm2iqzA1edzB+uBxxHpyjZGYiOR1oTbujeuEwzwUrf52qfk0X1bM8z l2xYHGNYOR3LMxHVJYVC982glS5/U3+R3C6fP5Eh2enQb4fag9li2AEbKY9hX8vG04HF4ECccrbIP KZvvxwLuXePxlyEQWjQz4CJyDePbrsuoEPMSxnXVhy6++FhsLRSQPz2tE9T1iWsr1sv6eNaACkeeB nuWWnMSmNpUwTpq+p0z3Tg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pPyXm-0004lw-4E; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:22 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1pPyXm-0004lw-4E@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:22 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the > screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness > (L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the > gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond > maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the > same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab > coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See > `XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary. > Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes > of crusaders? The topic is not an evil, but that text is too hard to read. If it is important to document that point, we should rewrite it in clear English. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 04:28:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 23:28:23 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57181 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPyXn-0001Vx-7b for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46158) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pPyXl-0001VV-E1 for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:21 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pPyXg-0005kG-6u; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=Fqav2pTQ0NZToHY0RAN0b92n6y7bbDHmaieukpRtcVM=; b=QOat2/uBjeN6 IRR+Rgr09hkk2GoOVFYM+mOPHeh89T1czpft/DsYrEuNzKeLTcO4SxhVvuoAKPkvWXFgFJVF/rmkj EFvYdp5GY5+Ra4x0ZAnbUOIgacyJbExHAwA9cYvVYq8Lb0ZTBdbcZipnihMyKLjB0MO0rGCLivFtW dBzZ4mi7cd/on39Qu29kqRMt+lb2nDUhR0ez8XSkGT9eTEydx0fwDMIhWcVGj8BnV0oUvJW8gTdnA BsilIPbV/HvA5qC0Ht23OpYeyfKrZzcM+SNwH1aBs1oZP8vtdIk8v/mxI6kG+Et+/cv9ARDV3lbeg tgi6QE81GL4U15SzlB78Pw==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pPyXf-0004fg-HM; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:15 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Tue, 07 Feb 2023 13:01:14 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: <E1pPyXf-0004fg-HM@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:15 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The paragraph structure is basically: > <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description> > Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself > is not understood. Jokes which are hard for many readers to understand can be frustrating for the readers who can't understand them. So I think we should insist that jokes be comprehensible. In other words, don't include jokes whose claim to funniness comes from crucial links left unstated, stated vaguely, or replaced with "wink, wink." -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 04:28:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 23:28:23 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57179 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPyXm-0001Vt-OE for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46150) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pPyXk-0001VT-Lz for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:21 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pPyXf-0005jz-8K; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:15 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=NilQg6CsT1FSJDLVGwd/eR7abbow7/QL/SrUq7OhydI=; b=f7Y1JrylJ1Jh z7lc5eG0Ha+vtILl40r7ZXR5cohTZHHnXlc4PSJ4DTzDrm2caTW612ohvBM9wfkaCiWRln8xywsSa Ne2akQr06eW9TJbQl8YuPzH+adTWT6BQAeZ3nK3bGUQfuqFyQ7H9BCmj8FUXgrgKYJa0OtAXbQaV+ 5R0M1nXcBsDVpcPTYZftYPyGP/g1QQAo9Bdmyos9rpZuane37yngUmSFhtx+2WnjDbthceVApMm3E TKIOlq34lle2S4BGz0/bHCtdqfSK20HaTvkZ+WfUMW6xMkEfQLGf8IKxoH0STvfnf1SU+e6qEu69a ZAhTDBgqpUL0njxjtJOa6Q==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1pPyXe-0004eR-2f; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:14 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Akib Azmain Turja <akib@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <871qn1tre3.fsf@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1tre3.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1pPyXe-0004eR-2f@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:14 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, yantar92@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > However, the text at the very end of the Top node of Texinfo manual is > even more offensive (for many): I can see how people who feel they are romantic failures could start to cry on reading that joke, but I see nothing that is offensive in it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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[69.118.59.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c11-20020a05620a164b00b0071c9bf854c6sm11726887qko.69.2023.02.08.08.06.39 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:06:39 -0800 (PST) From: dick <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87a61orx01.fsf@HIDDEN> (Akib Azmain Turja's message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2023 21:35:10 +0600") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <87ilgccnni.fsf@dick> <87a61orx01.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.14 (Gnus v5.14) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:06:39 -0500 Message-ID: <877cws87lc.fsf@dick> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: >>>>> Akib Azmain Turja writes: >> Gnusers worldwide, all 12 of us, have long known this. > +1, the manual is mostly useless for newbies. Correction: all 13 of us. Content analysis details: (1.2 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (dick.r.chiang[at]gmail.com) 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 1.2 MISSING_HEADERS Missing To: header -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.128.175 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [209.85.128.175 listed in wl.mailspike.net] X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 15:40:06 -0500 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) >>>>> Akib Azmain Turja <akib@HIDDEN> writes: >> Gnusers worldwide, all 12 of us, have long known this. > +1, the manual is mostly useless for newbies. Correction: all 13 of us.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 15:47:49 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 10:47:49 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56404 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPmfk-0003nj-KP for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 10:47:49 -0500 Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]:41348) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <akib@HIDDEN>) id 1pPmfi-0003nE-CP for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 10:47:47 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E666D411A8; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 16:47:44 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: SPAM Filter at disroot.org Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mln67jTW4mnP; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 16:47:43 +0100 (CET) From: Akib Azmain Turja <akib@HIDDEN> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1675871263; bh=E4hbXHO+L5X/iFbwRzFXmhGD8jhqvIXcTen/liLu4kE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=X0UzrvIDLj+4ZsgNg2HXVAEnkvbWhskJH3TeNrB4bI8hslLu8AIdr6s29nsBGddBQ 9RxMuxtZUuSwtKiBgqp44dWNqPZRPQw9o3ptB82L5z/yNDfgZhGkiF5BYdcTIZCWSV kU9p2ok6SsdfuekjrjvCm2exyhiWxZreb8xO37YUghIoZBpBhLrTiRbQ1WmaM9onpy WS/Rcq77NPeEDjbCnAJOWP/v337rwKyS8WKYEGThHdOmhAiRuww12TSn6j5+TkkN93 /bU/hW+NFGVkzXgjftzDMJjkqVBufELvuBWwWFFeBdQDR25lm5NJNP8IwjEbV+ItxN 32QaD9ZSjVqKA== To: dick <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87ilgccnni.fsf@dick> (dick's message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:06:09 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> <87ilgccnni.fsf@dick> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 21:35:10 +0600 Message-ID: <87a61orx01.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>, yantar92@HIDDEN, Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN>, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable dick <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN> writes: > I trust everyone here can acknowledge Gnus had long ago reached a > terminal state, and that new readers of the manual are more interested > in 1990s netspeak than actually using the software. As you readily > note, the manual is worthless for the latter's purpose. Gnusers > worldwide, all 12 of us, have long known this. +1, the manual is mostly useless for newbies. I learned mostly by experimenting (and often breaking Emacs) and other internet resources. > > I also trust everyone can see we're critiquing the equivalent of a five > year-old's clay ashtray as if it were a Confederate monument, which I > grant you is welcome respite from purposelessness and childlessness, but > nothing to build a head of steam about! Somehow, the Gnus manual seems to me less as a serious manual and more as a literature text. =2D-=20 Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5 Fediverse: akib@HIDDEN Codeberg: akib emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption." --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEyVTKmrtL6kNBe3FRVTX89U2IYWsFAmPjwS4ACgkQVTX89U2I YWumHRAArynB49lx5nc0lx9etpB9JHj5UtSeTlYae7iH9q+3yipfWEBSKUvSzw1m nhKS3NTmyqxMUZIp8ClNUwYMm6r0ZUTHtec7YuTnDSLVXyu9ds51/OvoIOBugy6u wSPZkwjSykylRqdOEpwRGMU+1WCbhHYtqK/yEwcJehl5ej93q7ogNCBv/ELAvNKw 3sZ9SzU8YRBmcv7MFk4tW5Gb2AUEELjmt3Z0p5yb9NAfnQ1p9y4Sz6qh8cCBCtYm My5E782BC1FZXadur5S66ocEwG2ZTxkFpVqERHlDIOTNXRUYKyzoMd7L+qMTQXoe F9b61eYZugBd4QyGo1AHnhhqnz6QnDgUSg6sbHE6OIPcu3xp3sNLd2TqE7l6fOS1 IPNn5PIlcCteDIpmzmSSi6aSc1SrIkY77IecXSXC2xOX9+2clwNLQtZwKnA7T30W 7+7tsUNvPmFywvX6r57AS24FQIkKdTlYqMDXYQLr3TLSPoVPKYCKGmGQaM8MZz7x oxDbuIwefB38pG2PIg7gvky5uGJspXsBrYh/ds4m8LMX8RMUdRJmxxu2pLDgYhcL D6On7TwwVkJtsdKxlbcXt0RcHanlvrmvPdSShIlJaypPcGNeHHqdt2wkP+ay+U4r SlU5uDOvFLsmlSgGRStO+x/UIZW5JdEqFtB0UOt9hI7t/P2t6Ug= =cQ+U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 14:28:21 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 09:28:21 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55128 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPlQo-0007OF-UK for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:28:21 -0500 Received: from mail-qt1-f179.google.com ([209.85.160.179]:42803) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN>) id 1pPk9Q-0002pD-2Q for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:06:17 -0500 Received: by mail-qt1-f179.google.com with SMTP id 5so10586732qtp.9 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 05:06:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=AQkr7k+fr7STE+SLYuFC80l+O2f+86orLDe1bH/QIQo=; b=Zxu3R0jYdMA4yvTB9zPaA7YW4yLc5RXXsyEocwdlc//4+dlZGmd48buhlf58iCyM3I zizG2ERSokxZjYOsqQbU1YdpMvGZXYhsIW8o40GdfeWMUi9CuTa0kRGr0Jp46GJUHSDb rgM4/ay7u2jg5sOiIKS+ijZDJ5IhvjCRqWDHs0O9K9l+eXaGXPTjZkJ59vdQSIbPJ2sO hp8rIyrtw4gkD0G+zL6Hp1QnfXFSfe5oZsPFItE3oXmExHox9vWv85N0olO2Xy5jAFUb Vk6DXY/f1mQyGVXzSarNu8HDiHyzRBwSFWK6pOaElJShtMM08a9Iq7Asa0zr2DlY1UP1 H7EA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=AQkr7k+fr7STE+SLYuFC80l+O2f+86orLDe1bH/QIQo=; b=WjY+dEh31sABmJ8VgFavcypp9TwV7idNJzihI6yVc7XmI7LVluFH1lXtX79Cu6R2cJ U2EyFtgpwwzMjIQpboQDYzj38r1BjMtMyVjQFSfOKuAVEcn8fGkFmyLOWoHHVsWELowe fIFrElnVa9dfqaqkYPOSpOhctCmpNJhc40uiv0Ad+Idr/Xr8yhwJxWyt31wsdMK7iGTI JRTuLRqb6bRyL+kw+I5cwnjD5HA3pzF6q81Dse/HNgZIA7Vig3LBMhOUjyfrLO/KiLpg I6Ja31AZmRuhnTvVc0cFbnFZ9GNnDqfwQtkqcCJYwcjRgjFrJ2unHj55piSoCOyRbfi+ Dh7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKX72wEcMUepvMNyUcycKBhTcIAPyv3Kzn1MUMZwFsMkOXt4kKRO 5V7/MFzvt1/ricKDCd77GLU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set++GfAKFtT7hrCg4EpXo8y5MKsrC5A7bhyX52BZezZcQq58ruL9Dzw/46SQnf3yBMRya6pfYQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4e56:0:b0:3b8:61df:1c2 with SMTP id e22-20020ac84e56000000b003b861df01c2mr12160332qtw.56.1675861570541; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 05:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ool-45763be4.dyn.optonline.net. [69.118.59.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e18-20020ac86712000000b003b9a505627bsm11343116qtp.79.2023.02.08.05.06.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Feb 2023 05:06:10 -0800 (PST) From: dick <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN> To: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> (Richard Stallman's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:31:53 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:06:09 -0500 Message-ID: <87ilgccnni.fsf@dick> User-Agent: Gnus/5.14 (Gnus v5.14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:28:17 -0500 Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>, yantar92@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) I trust everyone here can acknowledge Gnus had long ago reached a terminal state, and that new readers of the manual are more interested in 1990s netspeak than actually using the software. As you readily note, the manual is worthless for the latter's purpose. Gnusers worldwide, all 12 of us, have long known this. I also trust everyone can see we're critiquing the equivalent of a five year-old's clay ashtray as if it were a Confederate monument, which I grant you is welcome respite from purposelessness and childlessness, but nothing to build a head of steam about!
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From: Visuwesh <visuweshm@HIDDEN>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
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Ihor Radchenko wrote: > Hi, > > I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16
Group Topics, and 8 > Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least
some users find > the style of these sections insulting. > > While I [...]
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Ihor Radchenko wrote: > Hi, > > I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16
Group Topics, and 8 > Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least
some users find > the style of these sections insulting. > > While I [...]
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[=E0=AE=A4=E0=AE=BF=E0=AE=99=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=95=E0=AE=B3=E0=AF=8D =E0=AE=AA=
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hor Radchenko wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8
> Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find
> the style of these sections insulting.
>
> While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside
> USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the
> listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described
> topic.
As a non-native speaker who also read the Gnus manual (except Searching
and the rest), my general sentiment is that it is hard to read it
because of its writing style but I don't agree that every joke hindered
my understanding.
I find it hard to skim through the manual later when I read it like
"regular documentation" due to its writing style so I would be happy to
see a rewrite that tones down the jokes but so far the Info indices have
served me well enough, and Gnus runs smoothly (for me) after the initial
setup anyway so it is not a bother.
> 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
>
> Note:
>
> Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
> go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
> sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
> back of her plastic chair.
>
> I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
> information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
> find this section insulting.
I am not sure what this person finds insulting. I am not sure if you
referred to this when you wrote "female bullying" in another thread, but
what I visualise when I read this is much more innocent and does not
have anything offensive. OTOH, I do agree this paragraph sticks out and
seemingly serves no useful info.
> Further, the last sentence in
>
> =E2=80=98z=E2=80=99
> Suspend Gnus (=E2=80=98gnus-group-suspend=E2=80=99). This doesn=E2=
=80=99t really exit
> Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I=E2=80=99m=
not
> sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge?
>
> is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function
> is useless? Discouraged? I am confused.
This is yet another dry Gnus humour in my book.
> 3.16 Group Topics
>
> If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
> them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups o=
ver
> here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or s=
o?)
> you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You =
can
> even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
> groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild!
>
> Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic, often
> negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users), I simply feel
> disoriented while trying to read this paragraph. I can understand the
> first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a joke? Or are there useful
> pieces of information coded inside?
>
> After reading this info section, I feel that the amount of attempted
> jokes is larger than the amount of useful information. This is
> distracting (even though I do not mind an occasional joke, personally)
If you replace "sex group" with a language group e.g. "Spanish", does
the paragraph make more sense? I personally saw the use of "sex group"
as a jab at those who participate in "online sex groups" but I may be
group of course.
> 8 Scoring has
>
> Other people use =E2=80=9Ckill files=E2=80=9D, but we here at Gnus To=
wers like scoring
> better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight. They =
do
> something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
> attention!
>
> For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of
> word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we
> .. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that
> make people feel uncomfortable.
>
> Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also
> some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting
> files on file system?
Even without any knowledge about news readers (I was not even born back
then!), I could tell that "kill files" were a way to filter your feed
from the context. Especially since Emacs already uses the word "kill"
to mean what other applications call "cut" (kill-region) and "delete"
(kill-buffer). I don't really see a cause for confusion here TBH.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 13:00:14 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 08:00:14 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55013 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPk3a-0002eq-F2 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:00:14 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:37689) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1pPk3Y-0002dY-HQ for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:00:13 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1675861201; bh=Tq8cxHplvJuhl1bVeLEGP+SCFT6aN5Uiq3cryjrIPIU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=Rvo06l1sFlY7mfwxXahiTmg9NZcdLGACbDPkQxHAAukmvyFk0P7PjPLLy0iGVq+UW J0MofqCObkjGeQQf4V1YF1rHLIppEBahRS13iSxSHfoVwwMwa+Bs/S9FQlBXs5CHQn Tz883KxZsXAlJyHqEas8aPvIKA8Pyo5r+wn377T33t9iiuEHJGhNJ7nsTkebgR/xlJ 38wRjDwP6TXALe+y1CLC3qZ43rojFHvJrx1IS8eVCHPag95gZkz2TBJgYXhRjnuiUJ Zr8FHWAH7ZzACma7oVdAZBM7ROWDc6V6he54VlZ1KWbdeelTkdYM+NAAi2UuuN58yw zC21/zGPdxuGQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.39.22]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mxm3Q-1ofztH0Kpq-00zFF2; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:00:01 +0100 From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <83ttzwnxte.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:31:09 +0200") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> <87edr17brr.fsf@HIDDEN> <83357hpksq.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v8kcmvac.fsf@HIDDEN> <83ttzwnxte.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 13:59:59 +0100 Message-ID: <87k00smhww.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jxfHFLXehzVxjJdYC0ggFA7DFBhlHXsvl1LgnuUszcXeT6JFfXD ft9AQOM9C0enJE7EyhB21QeOTTzyvSwif2CBKWAq/I8KMyep7hQxjJzcPJXsAWXonGLLslB XBjCIXmraOYAAJ9shrojf4ixSdB8LVraNPYHt2qyxWFhZCB34QCIzWTEn8Hk/kAI8kUTLhD aUHO8kKfdVl11a5saBIWA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:nE+ORzwL4bQ=;H8TniUnR9v5M9PMnuq064geXrxi j7rw+MndznKwS3bQ41ffZr0aDauhiA04FQg6uUiPlvyniavECT9QxgTUk4n7jEzX4T72/WjT8 Ue6f+yZVw7jw8Ckhr+IXwsi4w7NAo4XfTsOxCrj0pPXs1K50H8jIQ1wmY82oqJTZXcXJd7MD5 8fHllYx1L1+Kp/htI2LVJ5uKzJU43mg+8dBbpyq8vtvp5WWlUCPMq6yl2XykV/Lj+3maCfXuG 4zysylWKRiXFwGGzUZVgcd4uC/myQIZwxFzyQ/abPJf8WPzJXZOQybN9jN8q7BR/mhU8x5r1p EBemf17fnpPo8GbCH8WiDfUXJVkGcouC5mODHwmEXvEb7fYwSba71rN4SqpJdxj5S01GWTyBB qSitT0jF/eecATy/6MrAPZk0niDrYqx0s7Bj7ogxk6VcL9L3HjXVz7YfCVGcoYxW5DBaIeBzF Ru3DIv/pWlhTUcx+9q/pM+reaC/h4sjXFGgb8TqZ3EJr4BcrfZkXDYZt7RLVdvHgtMwbacdgb Gk1ND8QGy32y8kvL5376GvbdbW4HH9qq68QFNfDjcGHPJflQ8iIr8hXc2UEf654pSx6eUgT+V J0S/VZZOL95gB9h3JDPVHn/rRB2/OjR+YlrJEm6WV1nk2rKM9u+TE5Fm9ahx/ujtaW3Liz8FL jgulzkDtcrvlkZTDPU2tWycgcEhjmL4i08GXPnB1E+vCMtxXY9pBfDTrlujkoWRABbW0sgJNF cTgnRPG2YVfzTuuDcRFdeg4DG/wGVxLPm6YjpJbghKjRMx1/KoybPLNvcifgT3cHkpqO7Hpga S+SrWdD9Q32ppB0Wt9HHxgs/1ku0UZnGq5xH+6Bbu4PQoxvsc4QUVIFtnJ67TlyrdITvg3V1D VR2zPlf2d320OMyPXHHHWFPOWdI532irp+afoe6BOpcGo5dEmapHx3UmdZw2ds2N7RjI0Fy+e j62z/3RCUP8/pg3L9b3Hw57hkHk= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, yantar92@HIDDEN, dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: Hi Eli, >> >> Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's rep= lies >> >> from being recorded on the bug tracker? >> > >> > That's up to Michael, not me. >> >> In general, I dislike such filtering. What about to ban him for the nex= t >> 4 weeks, as warning and as cooling down? > > When I said it's up to you, I meant completely up to you. Whatever > you decide in this case, including doing nothing, is fine by me. I > have no opinion on this in this case. OK. He knows there's a real option to be banned. Let's see how it goes, and if he continues to offend people, I'll add him to the filter. > Thanks. Best regards, Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
In-Reply-To: <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 08
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Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes:
> Please, do not use appeal to ridicule.
But that's the point.
Most people will find ridiculous that the following paragraph:
Other people use ``kill files'', but we here at Gnus Towers like
scoring better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight. =
They
do something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
attention!
makes the subsequent four paragraphs describing score files less clear:
All articles have a default score (`gnus-summary-default-score'),
which is 0 by default. This score may be raised or lowered either
interactively or by score files. Articles that have a score lower
than `gnus-summary-mark-below' are marked as read.
Gnus will read any ``score files'' that apply to the current group
before generating the summary buffer.
There are several commands in the summary buffer that insert score
entries based on the current article. You can, for instance, ask Gnus
to lower or increase the score of all articles with a certain subject.
There are two sorts of scoring entries: Permanent and temporary.
Temporary score entries are self-expiring entries. Any entries that
are temporary and have not been used for, say, a week, will be removed
silently to help keep the sizes of the score files down.
similarly, most people will also agree that being written in English
does not prevent them from understanding Emacs documentation.
If you glance at the first paragraph, and decide to stop reading after
that, it is not a problem with the Gnus manual. It is a reading
comprehension problem on your part.
If you really find that the first paragraph impairs the clarity of the
next four, contextually independent, paragraphs, then you are part of a
very small demographic.
Several months ago, someone came up with the idea to delete all
amusements from Emacs, and move them to ELPA (or something along those
lines.)
Asking us to delete every joke that someone finds confusing is not far
from those lines, and is in fact a very slippery slope leading directly
to that proposal.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 12:36:29 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 07:36:28 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54971 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPjga-0001u5-KB for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:36:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59684) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pPjgW-0001tk-IE for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:36:27 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pPjgR-0004bY-0Z; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:36:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=qLj+L3q5eZfbx0pDF3F1LhhTaz3jFM93kNskMoqdm44=; b=LzIP0AMF/BW5 fYhccJyYQeXN26pZKpoyswhBjdT605SUqzJtuanEYYdtkC7jBGfxOvl/OIL9O6GfaTMCKxoKNbqrm WEktqNMZgsk+lIK2R0W1M3xDUT10zbWund7RO8/cP7kHiC8as+Z0HdY5eUam4R5sVc6/zmWjibZ0t QZ6arLV2mU+vACI+B9zC7DfyrRyQZjUTvPPYfwuiHrQvA+2lvxcEOI7olVR38xjvV1Gr+cKhZE8bV mKL7lst3waVTVnRJa/psA7NM2i3I9jjH0++tOsz5O7pNP/f+/7BEjtLOBq6CocejUm/ounsze+zWA +JcHMzQBphHeYFP3Z83kYg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pPjgQ-00034R-8W; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:36:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:36:35 +0200 Message-Id: <83sffgnxkc.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 19:41:47 +0800 > From: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> > > Many people do not understand English. > Should we write Emacs documentation in some other language, then? These aren't orthogonal: we can have the manual in English _and_ in other languages. (In fact, we want to; it's just that no one has yet volunteered to do the humongously monumental job of translating the manual into any other language, and then maintain the translation over the years.) Exaggeration is a mother of many failures to agree on common goals. So is over-generalization.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 12:31:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 07:31:03 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54966 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPjbK-0001kw-Rx for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:31:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54324) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pPjbH-0001hc-KI for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:31:01 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pPjbC-0004gq-A3; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:30:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=DORPfiTWzDhuW6vd2TzOCpK0o8obzonVrkbhtElI2fw=; b=QWv834yspphb 6Nw2G3cqMx6mZ/R+xasQQiDgysdG6oYfCD2tzcJudiQAo/5zlIkA/ZhYmgs2YCbiqkOee0TGNHFaP vSBbhy/veqIx9HnDBL92lOXxPXbATCjyEsA5pLWq2RcMvIKou65FB5JFvWomj+U+bnErJohqlunxj zqEsWYtwxFPYlzBk4YfAcOOvtfR0XYKxqQ3aimoR81CdoDsyu0j2ctNPhEhiEmhHDk8oJGe9z484x DGVZcQzEjao25Cko1lXCbKOb7L4FD5+WSqRLl3zx55rGEFk1p8FiOwUNir73x5TusmLFaMVktt9tG /a+yOgIf1Oa0PR7w0+4IiQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pPjb9-0004E9-Ek; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:30:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:31:09 +0200 Message-Id: <83ttzwnxte.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87v8kcmvac.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Michael Albinus on Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:11:07 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> <87edr17brr.fsf@HIDDEN> <83357hpksq.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v8kcmvac.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@HIDDEN, yantar92@HIDDEN, dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> > Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>, yantar92@HIDDEN, > dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:11:07 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > Hi Eli, > > >> Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies > >> from being recorded on the bug tracker? > > > > That's up to Michael, not me. > > In general, I dislike such filtering. What about to ban him for the next > 4 weeks, as warning and as cooling down? When I said it's up to you, I meant completely up to you. Whatever you decide in this case, including doing nothing, is fine by me. I have no opinion on this in this case. Thanks.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 11:58:57 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 06:58:57 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54937 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPj6H-0006pW-Gt for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 06:58:57 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:53285) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pPj6F-0006pI-Kp for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 06:58:56 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FC0524021D for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 12:58:49 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675857529; bh=f7inLHl48HRsetFFUvlr7MSCu15v3+F3LmHsSDYd8S0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=P0HKbrErHe8twBWLrTT6ZK+cL3LELfKa2/BVzjZ3UvrTgN1WEyrQkMcwh5ARoqhv+ wBtGTvSQE1eEKjkj+37gpfo0L+hMzrCFnG3M3ADRpA/DbUx7/gVEImsyPfS6DohvRm yIfO244Yr9OGFhQv9dqlsStA6PvriA4ScNwam9/T0lOPiVavNj5AyeCJyNLcSB2oMx q8z6y8OWq1qZWqRZX5yl1cUU2c/f+WuTGhVuQgW5xNlUt5fWwfA5SpUOIRt5yAlWCc WSkY6wgdtxWOSPEI7EyVg47b+hmOqdi3ak/5ZsUtkA9ubgYK2p/7cx7WsWzjCsHiCV dkfCiD2V67Pzg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PBdnK6lVQz9rxF; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 12:58:45 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:59:23 +0000 Message-ID: <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes: > Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > >> Do you imply that users who did not understand certain parts of manual >> because of presence of jokes should just try harder instead of asking to >> clarify of the manual? > > Yes, when it is clear to most people that they do not impair the ability > to understand the manual. I agree that jokes that do not impair the ability to understand the manual are ok. I disagree that jokes in "8 Scoring" and "3.16 Group Topics" do not impair the understanding. For me, section 8 and section 3.16 are harder to understand because of jokes. I even missed some of the technical statements. A note "3.15 Exiting Gnus" does not impair my understanding. Just make me feel confused about what it means. > Many people do not understand English. > Should we write Emacs documentation in some other language, then? Please, do not use appeal to ridicule. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0fb67695224f61db34e19a4097001e31; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:41:59 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:40:09 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 19:41:47 +0800 Message-ID: <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 425 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > Do you imply that users who did not understand certain parts of manual > because of presence of jokes should just try harder instead of asking to > clarify of the manual? Yes, when it is clear to most people that they do not impair the ability to understand the manual. Many people do not understand English. Should we write Emacs documentation in some other language, then?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 11:39:46 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 06:39:46 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54916 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPini-0006GQ-AN for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 06:39:46 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:41255) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pPinf-0006G7-Vj for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 06:39:44 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CFBA24004B for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 12:39:35 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675856377; bh=eQ0wedftkhfs1pc6xq5hNy5P6wsKRbgCio6LoIZCXJA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=jMX+Av+o+mDBUbDO7MmS9WIqDcHkyqlr2U5MQ66iK3pMLatDW6//LOUT/fVD6rt2g zveK8Taqy9sxFf6wNS/UKROV6AZVR9II2bdBYwW44H1cmCwHfZIVQagv6daoqeGJe6 x70eSyjlvfGYpDqgK05mdZTAwswDsKDLgjuQltkOas76bLh9V81YWAzn4eemYo54bt hqqao45ImZRGNn09vl8wEiGC/8nsQnmMMKdSuZjLABz050t5AAJtuKvHsi3Ov9o1NR +eLPfoFAHkXF/XMIe7Y55NfkkSLUkL9q14FIs0WtWpeSCkEhsVjRHk+Ch8AB2G/bet bsxzFB7ZKlB6w== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PBdM748bZz9rxG; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 12:39:31 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <871qn16j3i.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:40:09 +0000 Message-ID: <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes: > Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > >> Sorry, I do not understand this sentence. > > The phrase, ``let's not think further'', deliberately implies that > whoever is reading the manual should not think about the topic any more. > > That phrase does not appear in the Gnus manual. Do you imply that users who did not understand certain parts of manual because of presence of jokes should just try harder instead of asking to clarify of the manual? >> Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs >> survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without jokes, >> and asking which one is preferred? That will draw a more clear picture >> compared to just two mailing list dwellers arguing about what other >> people prefer. > > What happens with all such a polls is that the mob which has been trying > to remove all traces of possibly offensive material from software will > arrange for themselves to be represented disproportionately relative to > the majority of normal people who do not care at all. Can't we just add an extra answer to observe if such people are over-represented? Just asking if they enjoy, stay neutral, or feel offended about the version with jokes? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 08:11:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 03:11:24 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54717 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPfY4-0000am-7W for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 03:11:24 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:56663) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>) id 1pPfXy-0000aR-HZ for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 03:11:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1675843869; bh=WRW8N0RqDBteI7uj3WVWpjqRxt9Q+kP1hASJPByk7vY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=PCXrWAAkXj7FC6e9zRPb5AIOROaZ6KxtZ6bQZ2Y+ybZqqxcllUQI3ovhsirXDqXiu zihrVY4wmwBuj6ZZnDhrUW8lczvtVgw6b54GcAHSr0xl48Pr63IYHrKVkStQOYZtHT M5v/axy5/Rkmt6e2vWjPtca8y0HLzu3zf/Ki9Rf9ye6Jj/d7v9Ar2r9SoiQFho4eDe yex0mVtrcFczwoknGNLAPoxV/F8lFzkf7ibhm8oaTX6vtrXbpFAbW2EecjyPpio2+3 1SD+zaE06jxeoy6LmcCWm1S9z52RfxV77vy27Bu2L2NwoYihfwc+aeDIyNPVOuEr0Q 9zQaftEQKEAHA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.39.22]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MXXuB-1p65h53bOp-00Z2qe; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:11:08 +0100 From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <83357hpksq.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 17:17:09 +0200") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> <87edr17brr.fsf@HIDDEN> <83357hpksq.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:11:07 +0100 Message-ID: <87v8kcmvac.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:qgWsOyw4j1NRt/SMc7w12sbkNbrj1eo372d1et9oxELfJniyIJS igplViae89jT3Tw/rJ/+FthM+eaFykTwZXpY6maBbXvsSl3+9EvFC/OssZmZwCxpB3yS4i3 bl3VR+emdjJ0ulR7NPbPGZBTIWsH/wDM11O1QErZFS6nYqq4rBItoYEDJlHkC+jjgQgvYIn qb7l/ERJwxuXd/wuF2CPw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:+6TVu9SozHs=;v0TrnxMgcRdXuQYiy6VUX8YmNmW C3QCKx5/+AOUnCHOyklP0G+PYPSYSYG225QoOT+jZ7YGB5O1jaoQy9FYFzWMZ/fSLVYisN2eA IydcU49cGBwl87mjUTrGz7xRGWdaxUHzA1fi+b0TZbKFJPn5t81N1f2dNXzUCYU+ZSpii1W4U Lu1+JeaUnPXpwbcxdhXtoVigSScBPfZlyXMAyrjj/3DVqBQaPXknbcVX80oZlBD/zWQ0efW/8 Y3r4qGVch0RJsCC9N7HvamgJSlpAU7jnjwfA4iQolNYvEhkgFwgDChdIKveAMf1hmy1N3Sup6 zOUEySWCH3KPCt4JwVVpBdar9YY2Vjj9Ucunky7t4tQDU5nhv7sQyFsXc4VjfbWHvl7NE3t0N ZonWiio+6B5s+r197XvhCrz/W3LuBHYZMX2Y2HikQTc+tvwzGaujqbnCriTxv3tZjS0QE+Qmv S5vYy6hYqQLjOApQfda57T7O1pkXGYao0zz336ib6QQ7ncle7e55U6TerwUdb5XTbYSjoNHjg KkZOpeotYxcROVQl0ZFrZ+wpFJ8I9BeY8dstHew//wK3IMP0Rn62yEOpKXeKOiG2TWFZHOfzA WZNjAskbgZv16CQPT1GccjYBXZctAuPuCD32dBDKVniA3F5RgF1OkWv0+UcxetaOXq4TKdxWf dJrlTN8rHTOOE3uYhq2Sl1mvHd5NIMnW7xZv6yR53dg/BygZSAg6fEIZbP+wtgg2umRLLVnyG 23CvC82nrtkCucwwPSgWRU7CjV7ST8SKcc4B4VaTUSZ6Byg+7tEtnd5eXGi242EVNHV6TC6zx Hn9AytKrVfJl/FIBcSJWyPsqbG84tWFiLCt8wqt4XTlx44AUR+43OyPkWRgo40xY1n4JHRfIi VkrpdCoiBoiuumby9DSmQyMC0Q4mFYYrXrt3P9Be50UYMjf6SyB54XeDOnDOKAGNuSymeNVqk yn/V7vpGj49tQ5zTkCpU7gdEPlI= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>, yantar92@HIDDEN, dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: Hi Eli, >> Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies >> from being recorded on the bug tracker? > > That's up to Michael, not me. In general, I dislike such filtering. What about to ban him for the next 4 weeks, as warning and as cooling down? Best regards, Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 25aa284b9571d1f0557942cc8fe3eb17; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 04:46:26 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> (Richard Stallman's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:31:53 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <E1pPc7d-00024K-Hr@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 12:46:12 +0800 Message-ID: <87sffg69yj.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1544 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes: > This seems to be trying to create humor by simply referring to sex. > I "get the joke," but it doesn't seem to be very funny. This part If you replace ``sex'' with, say, ``kayaking'', the meaning of the joke stays unchanged. The joke is that it is possible to sort completely unrelated newsgroup into categories. > Since you don't know what a > > kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that > > paragraph. > > That is very unkind to the reader. Users don't enjoy feeling puzzled > about important parts of the subject matter. The manual should _help_ > users understand the subject matter -- that's its purpose. > > I presume the Gnus manual explains what a kill file is, for readers > who do not know. If not, we should add that. It explains both what kill and score files are, and why score files should be preferred instead. > Then this joke -- if it is worth keeping -- should have a cross reference > to that explanation. > > So, IS this joke worth keeping? > > Although I am an American, I don't get the joke at all. It seems to > be more smirking than funny. > > Can anyone explain the intended meaning? If that is more funny than > the actual wording, maybe we could change the wording to be clear. > But if we don't do that, deleting the joke could be better. It is trying to make people stop using kill files and use score files instead, because they are supposed to be better. I have never used a score file.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
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> > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
> >
> > Note:
> >
> > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
> > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
> > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
> > back of her plastic chair.
> >
> > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
> > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
> > find this section insulting.
I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting.
I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny.
I can't make sense of it at all.
Would someone who understands it please explain the joke?
> > ‘z’
> > Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’). This doesn’t really exit
> > Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I’m not
> > sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge?
> >
> > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function
> > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused.
I find it disparaging to Gnus itself.
If we think some detail of Gnus is somehow problematical, the manual
is the wrong place to say so. Rather, Gnus developers should take up
the issue and decide whether this behavior is useful or not. If
useful, explain why; if not, perhaps delete it.
> > If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
> > them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over
> > here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
> > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can
> > even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
> > groups or the sex groups—or both! Go wild!
This seems to be trying to create humor by simply referring to sex.
I "get the joke," but it doesn't seem to be very funny. This part
and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
> > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.
stereotypes the users and mocks them. That is likely to make the
readers feel attacked.
We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their
unrelated hgypersensitivities on others. They are demanding power
which nobody should have.
However, jokes that make people feel mocked _because they use Gnus_
are unfriendly to our users. We should remove those.
> > Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring
> > better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight. They do
> > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
> > attention!
> >
> > For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of
> > word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we
> > .. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that
> > make people feel uncomfortable.
> >
> > Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also
> > some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting
> > files on file system?
> Gnus is a news reader. Naturally, the indended audience of the jokes in
> its manual are those who read net news.
That's not a kind attitude toward the reader.
Since you don't know what a
> kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that
> paragraph.
That is very unkind to the reader. Users don't enjoy feeling puzzled
about important parts of the subject matter. The manual should _help_
users understand the subject matter -- that's its purpose.
I presume the Gnus manual explains what a kill file is, for readers
who do not know. If not, we should add that.
Then this joke -- if it is worth keeping -- should have a cross reference
to that explanation.
So, IS this joke worth keeping?
Although I am an American, I don't get the joke at all. It seems to
be more smirking than funny.
Can anyone explain the intended meaning? If that is more funny than
the actual wording, maybe we could change the wording to be clear.
But if we don't do that, deleting the joke could be better.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 7be5a65232282cf20aea42ffcc613eed; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 01:28:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 16:15:11 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:28:49 +0800 Message-ID: <871qn16j3i.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 948 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > Sorry, I do not understand this sentence. The phrase, ``let's not think further'', deliberately implies that whoever is reading the manual should not think about the topic any more. That phrase does not appear in the Gnus manual. > Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs > survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without jokes, > and asking which one is preferred? That will draw a more clear picture > compared to just two mailing list dwellers arguing about what other > people prefer. What happens with all such a polls is that the mob which has been trying to remove all traces of possibly offensive material from software will arrange for themselves to be represented disproportionately relative to the majority of normal people who do not care at all. Instead of a poll, I'd rather we stay with the status quo, since it evidently already works.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 19:55:45 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 14:55:44 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54120 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPU48-0006kG-KE for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:55:44 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:33805) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pPU46-0006jw-6q for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:55:42 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A667240132 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 20:55:33 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675799736; bh=+fexs07HqxRJoqpTya/P1CNdjE+xVRJi9xPHC28eUdk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=Rg3MxoR95gRLnDUy+TNz8FPs5r0Nw1IDeTLlF8L0SiaDGxFcb0xUcZSlS2Bviq3zq FowTSrmIH2uMZbGjcQ2VVGdTmIkZ5xsk8yE2vjclg54V0vZklHfCXnUCv3axy8iP/O yu6h2j40/GQFHS3iZlIqpETYL//JdhxWXq8/Et0p0yKPmoAIomOGMvuh5AB2Asej4U FqFaBh58qOO8MMzGL51H31wfcORJa/KJ4fQVoyoE8UBK4bcINJzbTvVKY0pQt1lb4u /Vq5yJ8gQdc07lzcUABJV4nMXqvhK6SYvvnYfs67976I+Ry8tyVGwUEREg1B9+bo3N TQNwLJlZ/2JiA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PBDPw35STz6tmv; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 20:55:32 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87357hz2d8.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87357hz2d8.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 19:56:12 +0000 Message-ID: <87mt5pdzc3.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@HIDDEN> writes: >> The paragraph structure is basically: >> >> <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description> >> >> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself >> is not understood. > > But you have understood the above structure. Then what is the issue? The issue is that it took an extra effort to understand it. Not because of technical details, but simply because of presence of jokes. IMHO, the primary aim of manuals is explaining technical information to the users. Jokes that help to understand or at least does not hurt are totally fine. But when jokes makes the information harder to understand, isn't it against the aim of writing a good manual? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 19:45:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 14:45:50 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54108 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPTuX-0006Of-Ky for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:45:50 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:54380) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pPTuV-0006OS-Ok for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:45:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pPTuF-0002Nx-Cd for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:45:46 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pPTu5-0002bB-3M for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:45:31 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pPTtz-0007Ig-1c for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 20:45:15 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 01:15:07 +0530 Message-ID: <87357hz2d8.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:WJ80GKQngx/ibLbvgKNRFCqskS0= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is > technical or still part of the joke. > > You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the > Emacs groups or the sex groups—or both! > > The paragraph structure is basically: > > <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description> > > Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself > is not understood. But you have understood the above structure. Then what is the issue?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 16:14:46 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 11:14:46 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53844 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPQcI-0000WO-3U for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 11:14:46 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:58985) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pPQcG-0000WB-Lc for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 11:14:45 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FDA1240732 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 17:14:37 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675786478; bh=fJBsCeSIla1uf6rSheTZ9HYpVEFH5BUmfstf/DwF+LY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=IhnPfQDJJ54hgRg5QfCMWDUo9Yckb6gWOGvz5vrK9Yd88RZFwsSNqEMzwYDpGTanN 6/pejZboGtKUeKXJXeJujP+mdOf6vQelkkDFAHuzrMdlKo07KxEWdEbmvx2tEHDohj o7Ehem1Ct1kWeOkHHNPwQfLiyb/EXGx7JnCJ8X/1G+fCDdOMS1acAhWjZYwkra6PzQ v5GPxlOU7iwM/s5cpotJ5qBTw4RD6+J1FDcz10sBl0CqftdVBD+2SwZ0iX6NsouW9Y wQNvz4YK/7IFxsBzBZ+384CrvE5pYpI7XGnGuIvgaMcibgt4kAc46cb8MclNEOjqAb 6JVblAQ5sNYAA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PB7Vz5RFxz6tnW; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 17:14:35 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 16:15:11 +0000 Message-ID: <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes: >> Would you find it helpful or at least neutral to have these extra jokes >> when trying to understand the above sentence? > > I didn't see ``let's not think further'' in the Gnus manual. Sorry, I do not understand this sentence. > And no, your additions do not make it harder for me to understand that > sentence. I see. Then, we are in clear disagreement here. Maybe others can chime in to clarify if jokes in 3.16 Group Topics section of GNUS manual hamper the understanding or not. Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without jokes, and asking which one is preferred? That will draw a more clear picture compared to just two mailing list dwellers arguing about what other people prefer. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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To: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
In-Reply-To: <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> (Po Lu via's message of "Tue, 07 Feb
2023 20:36:34 +0800")
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Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:
> 3.16 Group Topics
>
> If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
> them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups o=
ver
> here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or s=
o?)
> you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You =
can
> even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
> groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild!
>
> I do understand the rest as well.
>
>> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic,
>> which is present in the same paragraph.
>
> There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes
> about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other
> newsgroup?
>
> Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get
> a life!
There are many who are still growing up. Is GNUS only intended for
adults? I don't think so. But still that sex topic included.
However, the text at the very end of the Top node of Texinfo manual is
even more offensive (for many):
Documentation is like sex: when it is good, it is very, very good;
and when it is bad, it is better than nothing. =E2=80=94Dick Brandon
Why a few GNU manuals tend to be for adults?
=2D-=20
Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5
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To: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
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Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
In-Reply-To: <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> (Po Lu via's message of "Tue, 07 Feb
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Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:
> 3.16 Group Topics
>
> If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
> them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups o=
ver
> here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or s=
o?)
> you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You =
can
> even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
> groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild!
>
> I do understand the rest as well.
>
>> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic,
>> which is present in the same paragraph.
>
> There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes
> about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other
> newsgroup?
>
> Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get
> a life!
There are many who are still growing up. Is GNUS only intended for
adults? I don't think so. But still that sex topic included.
However, the text at the very end of the Top node of Texinfo manual is
even more offensive (for many):
Documentation is like sex: when it is good, it is very, very good;
and when it is bad, it is better than nothing. =E2=80=94Dick Brandon
Why a few GNU manuals tend to be for adults?
=2D-=20
Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5
Fediverse: akib@HIDDEN
Codeberg: akib
emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption."
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 15:17:06 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 10:17:06 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53765 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPPiT-0007RN-RM for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:17:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39386) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pPPiO-0007Qn-Tv for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:17:04 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pPPiI-00014Q-Q7; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:16:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=q70cIzlahtcAtZDchNRFl4k5nw6Sfxtq5bGJPrvnIrI=; b=IZhcpjrOFTzW J3TiNsfks0FzR7KEap6/U5whB3IveeGKgsRtE+JI9hzw4bK/oJ1GFzZXOuR1Xf/fru/5BQcjZHWKZ odVZTjZQiO3siDW3dtMinJjUmOXW1RX6Gob42miHFwEropT2A0zee+nYUI5Ra3IxgPCM8Se6CuuyY YZ6VwRGR10Oep2FWI/UC3Nn+PoaMrpehTIQyx58HQeHxld6i3Wn1jq1jp7mG11ZBUfof3yZLyXWpR 1YNg6SeFIDzh/uoiyxht0AnL+0oZe989AEPwXhAeq4pjlcfBGBaXLBhci21SzUt3xCxomVNQzvcVx D3cGtt8poeRpoHU+E9p0+Q==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pPPiI-0000S9-A1; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:16:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 17:17:09 +0200 Message-Id: <83357hpksq.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87edr17brr.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Po Lu on Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:09:28 +0800) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> <87edr17brr.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@HIDDEN, dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, > 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:09:28 +0800 > > dick <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN> writes: > > [drivel elided] > > *plonk*. > > Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies > from being recorded on the bug tracker? That's up to Michael, not me.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 7cba51e32bb5dbac53c91388e5aa375d; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 15:10:44 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:43:06 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:10:37 +0800 Message-ID: <87a61p7bpu.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 4572 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text > editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: > >>>> 3.16 Group Topics >>>> >>>> If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to gro= up >>>> them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs group= s over >>>> here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups o= r so?) >>>> you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. Y= ou can >>>> even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs >>>> groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! >>> >>> Thanks. >>> I also partially understand the joke. >>> My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is >>> technical or still part of the joke. >>> >>> You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the >>> Emacs groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! >>> >>> The paragraph structure is basically: >>> >>> <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description> >>> >>> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself >>> is not understood. >> ... >>> Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts. >> >> They do not. End of discussion. > > I kindly disagree. 3.16 Group Topics section was difficult to > understand _for me_ precisely because of the jokes. I will elaborate > below. > >> Where I come from, it is generally said that a person who deliberately >> tries to find problems with something is trying to ``pick pricks''. >> They are usually able to find some problems, because the problems they >> report tend to, by definition, rely on their own testimony: ``I don't >> understand'', ``I'm offended by'', etc. >> >> Such people generally ruin the day for everyone else wherever they >> appear. > > Upon hearing about the problem and checking the specifically indicated > sections in the manual, I tend to agree with the person being offended. > Not because I am not offended (I am not), but because, as I stated > earlier, I believe that jokes should not complicate the understanding. > >> Whoever reported the problem with the Gnus manual, which has not seen >> other such reports in over 20 years, certainly sounds like one such >> individual. And if you don't understand the manual, then it is not a >> problem with the jokes therein. Just read it again until you do. >> How many people can understand the following sentence without reading it >> at least once or twice? > > Absence of bug reports does not imply that the manual is easy to > understand. I do not say that it is incomprehensible, but the examples I > pointed to do make it harder to understand. Won't it be an improvement > to make the manual easier to understand for more people? > >> XcmsCIELabClipL >> >> This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the >> screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness >> (L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the >> gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond >> maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the >> same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab >> coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See >> `XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary. >> >> Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes >> of crusaders? > > I do not see any problem with the provided paragraph. Yes, it contains a > lot of unfamiliar terms, but they appear to be necessary to describe the > technical information. In contrast, jokes do not convey any new > information. They are good to have as an _occasional_ distraction - a > break that may be necessary to simplify understanding; but not good when > they make understanding more difficult. > > Imagine a joke inserted into your example, on top of all other > unfamiliar terms: > >> This brings the encountered out-of-gamut (not gonad, mind you) color >> specification into the screen's color gamut by reducing or >> increasing (let's not think further) CIE metric lightness (L*) in the >> CIE Lab color space until the color is within (mmm...) the gamut. > > Would you find it helpful or at least neutral to have these extra jokes > when trying to understand the above sentence? I didn't see ``let's not think further'' in the Gnus manual. And no, your additions do not make it harder for me to understand that sentence.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 71d91acc9a522abfb01ae489f91b7000; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 15:09:35 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: dick <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> (dick's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 09:15:54 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:09:28 +0800 Message-ID: <87edr17brr.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 180 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) dick <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN> writes: [drivel elided] *plonk*. Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies from being recorded on the bug tracker?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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[69.118.59.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y23-20020ac87057000000b003b86b5a07b3sm1153369qtm.90.2023.02.07.06.15.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 06:15:55 -0800 (PST) From: dick <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> (Po Lu via's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 20:36:34 +0800") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 09:15:54 -0500 Message-ID: <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> User-Agent: Gnus/5.14 (Gnus v5.14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: I don't think "joke" means what you think it means. A joke need not be funny but it does need to at least attempt capturing an irony. The literary device used by the Gnus manual is merely whimsy. In a [...] Content analysis details: (1.2 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (dick.r.chiang[at]gmail.com) 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 1.2 MISSING_HEADERS Missing To: header -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.219.43 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [209.85.219.43 listed in wl.mailspike.net] X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 09:54:57 -0500 Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>, 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) I don't think "joke" means what you think it means. A joke need not be funny but it does need to at least attempt capturing an irony. The literary device used by the Gnus manual is merely whimsy. In any other context, the prose used, e.g., "Go wild!", would not raise any eyebrows, but because it's injected into a technical manual, non-English speakers mistakenly interpret this as an American's idea of a joke, when in fact it's just grating ennui. Now someone who spends 1/7 of his waking hours modifying emacs telling others to "get a life." Now that's funny!
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 14:42:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 09:42:50 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51630 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPPBJ-0003eh-Hi for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 09:42:50 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:60295) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pPPBG-0003eP-Oc for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 09:42:48 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B5962404DD for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 15:42:40 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675780960; bh=5luOzGDxbP88+tiDeVCUb3J7jJLG3cmrtE8iJm/22Ag=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=JZOgPxGrV9MFJpDmGsgxT480oZXA4J5MexknfLN2f1OqYl+0GoWg1SPhKRn3C622P D/sOOBv39E/+2OGhNBts30LJzgCQ7fqzbnIVvusva6GFjH34rZn6xocbauootACT05 kGUg3pD7rrTgKVrGZMnNH/TSiSuClKOh08QDMjU87eZXaPeySDQj65iI5CEjTUgy0k IlMbDem9ebX7NTv31YX7OqUv2+hG/+n9aw09EaVLxBAZ79B9DuNTItPBtCBpFRdVpl cPk/towgszL+bQCzG/Ac7cz0ZrHSOV0k+RqXi0bwo1VALcHF1wYI6ONGX4tVmtNMLX dRq4atQl0FINQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PB5Sv3dtgz9rxB; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 15:42:39 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:43:06 +0000 Message-ID: <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: >>> 3.16 Group Topics >>> >>> If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group >>> them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups= over >>> here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or= so?) >>> you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. Yo= u can >>> even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs >>> groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! >> >> Thanks. >> I also partially understand the joke. >> My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is >> technical or still part of the joke. >> >> You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the >> Emacs groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! >> >> The paragraph structure is basically: >> >> <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description> >> >> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself >> is not understood. > ... >> Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts. > > They do not. End of discussion. I kindly disagree. 3.16 Group Topics section was difficult to understand _for me_ precisely because of the jokes. I will elaborate below. > Where I come from, it is generally said that a person who deliberately > tries to find problems with something is trying to ``pick pricks''. > They are usually able to find some problems, because the problems they > report tend to, by definition, rely on their own testimony: ``I don't > understand'', ``I'm offended by'', etc. > > Such people generally ruin the day for everyone else wherever they > appear. Upon hearing about the problem and checking the specifically indicated sections in the manual, I tend to agree with the person being offended. Not because I am not offended (I am not), but because, as I stated earlier, I believe that jokes should not complicate the understanding. > Whoever reported the problem with the Gnus manual, which has not seen > other such reports in over 20 years, certainly sounds like one such > individual. And if you don't understand the manual, then it is not a > problem with the jokes therein. Just read it again until you do. > How many people can understand the following sentence without reading it > at least once or twice? Absence of bug reports does not imply that the manual is easy to understand. I do not say that it is incomprehensible, but the examples I pointed to do make it harder to understand. Won't it be an improvement to make the manual easier to understand for more people? > XcmsCIELabClipL > > This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the > screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness > (L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the > gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond > maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the > same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab > coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See > `XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary. > > Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes > of crusaders? I do not see any problem with the provided paragraph. Yes, it contains a lot of unfamiliar terms, but they appear to be necessary to describe the technical information. In contrast, jokes do not convey any new information. They are good to have as an _occasional_ distraction - a break that may be necessary to simplify understanding; but not good when they make understanding more difficult. Imagine a joke inserted into your example, on top of all other unfamiliar terms: > This brings the encountered out-of-gamut (not gonad, mind you) color > specification into the screen's color gamut by reducing or > increasing (let's not think further) CIE metric lightness (L*) in the > CIE Lab color space until the color is within (mmm...) the gamut. Would you find it helpful or at least neutral to have these extra jokes when trying to understand the above sentence? --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
In-Reply-To: <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 07
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Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes:
> Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>>> May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to?
>>
>> This one:
>>
>> 3.16 Group Topics
>>
>> If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
>> them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups =
over
>> here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or =
so?)
>> you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You=
can
>> even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
>> groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild!
>
> Thanks.
> I also partially understand the joke.
> My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is
> technical or still part of the joke.
>
> You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the
> Emacs groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both!
>
> The paragraph structure is basically:
>
> <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description>
>
> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself
> is not understood.
>
> To summarize, my problem is not a joke and not that I understand it or
> not. My problem is that I do not fully understand technical descriptions
> in this paragraph.
>
>> I do understand the rest as well.
>
> Ok. I am especially confused about the Note: part in 3.15 Exiting Gnus
> has. I fail to see a joke there. (this is not important in the context
> of this bug, I am just curious)
>
>>> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic,
>>> which is present in the same paragraph.
>>
>> There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes
>> about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other
>> newsgroup?
>>
>> Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get
>> a life!
>
> While I do agree that people should ideally understand that jokes are
> not aiming to offend them, even if the topic is not acceptable in
> someone's culture, it is not practically the case for all the users.
>
> In particular, topics sensitive within whole cultures (sex, race,
> female bullying) are likely to distract (or worse) a significant
> fraction of Emacs users from acquiring the technical context of the
> manual. The fact that another fraction of the Emacs users find such
> jokes pleasing does not change this fact.
>
> I would also like to point out that GNUS is well-known to be
> hard-to-grasp. A manual loaded with large amount of culture-specific
> jokes does not help in this regard. In particular, I do find "3.16 Group
> Topics" section of the manual difficult to understand precisely because
> it is overloaded with jokes.
> Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts.
They do not. End of discussion.
Where I come from, it is generally said that a person who deliberately
tries to find problems with something is trying to ``pick pricks''.
They are usually able to find some problems, because the problems they
report tend to, by definition, rely on their own testimony: ``I don't
understand'', ``I'm offended by'', etc.
Such people generally ruin the day for everyone else wherever they
appear.
Whoever reported the problem with the Gnus manual, which has not seen
other such reports in over 20 years, certainly sounds like one such
individual. And if you don't understand the manual, then it is not a
problem with the jokes therein. Just read it again until you do.
How many people can understand the following sentence without reading it
at least once or twice?
XcmsCIELabClipL
This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the
screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness
(L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the
gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond
maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the
same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab
coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See
`XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary.
Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes
of crusaders?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
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Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes:
>> May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to?
>
> This one:
>
> 3.16 Group Topics
>
> If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
> them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups o=
ver
> here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or s=
o?)
> you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You =
can
> even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
> groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild!
Thanks.
I also partially understand the joke.
My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is
technical or still part of the joke.
You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the
Emacs groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both!
The paragraph structure is basically:
<technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description>
Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself
is not understood.
To summarize, my problem is not a joke and not that I understand it or
not. My problem is that I do not fully understand technical descriptions
in this paragraph.
> I do understand the rest as well.
Ok. I am especially confused about the Note: part in 3.15 Exiting Gnus
has. I fail to see a joke there. (this is not important in the context
of this bug, I am just curious)
>> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic,
>> which is present in the same paragraph.
>
> There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes
> about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other
> newsgroup?
>
> Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get
> a life!
While I do agree that people should ideally understand that jokes are
not aiming to offend them, even if the topic is not acceptable in
someone's culture, it is not practically the case for all the users.
In particular, topics sensitive within whole cultures (sex, race,
female bullying) are likely to distract (or worse) a significant
fraction of Emacs users from acquiring the technical context of the
manual. The fact that another fraction of the Emacs users find such
jokes pleasing does not change this fact.
I would also like to point out that GNUS is well-known to be
hard-to-grasp. A manual loaded with large amount of culture-specific
jokes does not help in this regard. In particular, I do find "3.16 Group
Topics" section of the manual difficult to understand precisely because
it is overloaded with jokes.
>> Also, note that Gnus is also email client. Are people who intend to use
>> GNUS for email supposed to understand Newsgroup terminology in order to
>> use GNUS?
>
> No, but they are not expected to understand the jokes in the manual for
> a _newsreader_ either.
Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts.
--=20
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
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From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
In-Reply-To: <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 07
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Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes:
> Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>>> 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
>>>
>>> ...
>>> 3.16 Group Topics
>>> ...
>>
>> I think this joke is fairly obvious for anyone who has tried to browse a
>> public news server.
>
> May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to?
This one:
3.16 Group Topics
If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over
here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can
even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild!
I do understand the rest as well.
> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic,
> which is present in the same paragraph.
There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes
about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other
newsgroup?
Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get
a life!
> I do not mind not understanding. But I do prefer to have manuals written
> in such a way that I can at least distinguish jokes from the technical
> information I actually need to use GNUS. I admit that the paragraph
> about "kill files" is clearly distinguishable as a joke. Not so much for
> 3.16 Group Topics where jokes and non-jokes are rather mixed.
>
> Also, note that Gnus is also email client. Are people who intend to use
> GNUS for email supposed to understand Newsgroup terminology in order to
> use GNUS?
No, but they are not expected to understand the jokes in the manual for
a _newsreader_ either.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 11:24:25 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 06:24:24 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51246 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPM5I-0001xK-Gr for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 06:24:24 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:39915) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pPM5H-0001x7-4n for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 06:24:23 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A43B240474 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 12:24:16 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675769057; bh=iFpSFNIPueJ+7x4nUolaSLpKSXQCsWadr/OWltkzx6k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=RAqYiEhZSmQeVrB6mJAnM7DcJlHSdx0G7uV1N9ksnSHvTR/15S4xy3BQaRdJKnNrA CsPwcjIugeJXCwLNF/XWpYbaSo9SQkjgcgX0dJr8EyI5OKQL3HK926JHb2LwGFAm2Z oY2LxDK6+3h6zKvup2apcM4kQ0qaSAKSJnL0Kq6B/Zr3sP/Hl/9zUIslf5nxlsnGUK IIJiIHT4E/kfIsgI6plp+0xPdUUyM4i+GGAKv0C6K9GK5kWZgiGgfZDp9wG0lZMiTu QEnI7TxP4j7tUEiCF5J940LK4et+khj8hcMOciN814xXIa2oYeFMzdEx4m7iPSM8tm xTojv5sxPQhMQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PB13z433yz9rxF; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 12:24:15 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 11:24:53 +0000 Message-ID: <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> writes: >> 3.15 Exiting Gnus has >> >> ... >> 3.16 Group Topics >> ... > > I think this joke is fairly obvious for anyone who has tried to browse a > public news server. May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to? >> Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also >> some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting >> files on file system? > > Gnus is a news reader. Naturally, the indended audience of the jokes in > its manual are those who read net news. Since you don't know what a > kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that > paragraph. Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic, which is present in the same paragraph. > The internet is for adults, not silly folk who cry about everything they > don't understand. I do not mind not understanding. But I do prefer to have manuals written in such a way that I can at least distinguish jokes from the technical information I actually need to use GNUS. I admit that the paragraph about "kill files" is clearly distinguishable as a joke. Not so much for 3.16 Group Topics where jokes and non-jokes are rather mixed. Also, note that Gnus is also email client. Are people who intend to use GNUS for email supposed to understand Newsgroup terminology in order to use GNUS? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 02:07:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 21:07:10 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50513 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pPDO1-0004oh-U1 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 21:07:10 -0500 Received: from sonic311-52.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.188.233]:38633) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <luangruo@HIDDEN>) id 1pPDNy-0004oB-L6 for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 21:07:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1675735619; bh=EboFmf7BblfOgYlYTPWBBNcQI2Y99ZPlV0QVUuTLm+Y=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=joTlM9ENpwm11SMhYo0ftZbKo05V6w9wi+36r0pZbcirwTGXpVFueOs4imeWW4MD4UHG1qXv1xmQgscNsVumwqmFLWqUHBa6IcFQKJzKe+yoUHBIimeCTDZjZh3h13Z78x86QRvqjNTPhL9hRrWqNzgL4ZghlLUEySQRGt0PaMTLVyHIDDVDSzXMssIHknCgQWvTR5NFNkVOTNNmPRDv3p1Q5yy6kjZyN8oEIVuc+WMrkyPDaNUqOXA5ujGmqMnuhRV5HKm3pXbO0wagmFT+oP2Jr03RVVTWKXMAhxlcv83niKccvMhvy/4ZYiSvut3t9lPhizHZ4DdA7I/M43uUBw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1675735619; bh=qvXOONiLX88mUjYoxHyyLtAayhVke7JAkxBYWttN+aJ=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=TwHhOslwsbue4se3xGtLw59x1PCPKITmVV8TaDtV3/GXQsrlc9chrJVVAo4xZQ2g/KZkzRr9vHPd7MHVaYnj0P6xXKkWcOoCJaqbcoDgGaNqnRNwPFzsO4uXaxqt6HA1LyuD2WLmbRhBV/koy4+csUF1m/lEanlNUZAezGVczaUHyZwfTdrJlRhyjTEiC3XHS8+eWRvERW0J6mCzBFHWdJao5HqIN95Yp+2Qh0wMGT7oH1HaFp1FdggJH2CFQa46nk1Opo539PdUtfARqk/Tq1yzKjYiMFE0qj+NlYesGLHCIRNvJIm3MAjlL1VBNA82a2sHo4/PBQBwBMPogF66WA== X-YMail-OSG: 0IQDW8gVM1mYIzEZqTb7wbNULaq47OzCVlqyPDBQoPCyMDigcxnQdcwE0L9RI8G UeRCxNjw3j9lHU7TSSlK60oSoiENiXxxRoXXP4__ZaL3YPr7KE7TfiXVkPfJ196h8D93VPvMknhg G8d5kFhj.nZpnXz9I7YZsW6XfygQgcpQjalME.qeqFmsM4KUhxXUG0gh1KfzmYQvyeUbyIX0vu27 ndyo3zR76p5N2lOYqoGgxMFAU5fSXjMbJg8qs0lrsmK6ASdVh_4OCaIALk8UTibFNjLgam5Acnuz GcEhGmGFbwdONUQ7j4JFeZ7KjHSaBdy4m6dwIua9o1tPRDlYbl3243mp0NeJWyTRaW9HDSh9bQVP 989pjAcYA2tHEp9gRIa4EvptaBAJzjkO4NMDtWMpRgO80JrB6nft9OCxlI4umFQgF3ez.cAkRjKE lc4swfu32jXHLRWpWo1EvawCJaw5DAVijM4TDAtFQ6SkDCztT0atgkhvqSCxjfB7MCwBFMirwlTi qk6vLfcSSpO5_AE84gExIgIFj_nt9JpX8RDOetMB3Opv9oEKXh3b2bYozx4vS4edTRuu6qRHkTDT 39rQ.ybPwKs9P9GzJ741tcwZqCsFpwDa2hc3f4Q0_3to8MlL5nuI7TEyq6uoRrICJWPpLEkwPZ1H nJa7iT.95.XmiqvNXHI6Ut2coRtjbsUwAp6ersfVoURGKrdB7HCMymV9VL8h_K4NHzCjMK5Q0oqS wcsn5Sqy5U1lKeJBOU8KPr0p42b9JG2mJnLzi89X11YIzKFyZ0LZpZZbJGMNMM_MKoFx8nRT8mOZ JjUbDszKt1KI2Z4tGkR7llUWC9lFuSR6UUWmKMMdczxiVECjgUIFnY6Wnug652n8GoDxxJLl7Zjv QovqQayLY.bGOX8A97ISmMjlFSYi_fjPjL.2.WYD3g2bCDt2v8m.5h661.wc91H9hrHXQEZ.WWlc YCTvVjnltiNaC9tOCcjGsBE8rqPO9nE7CWUZFaMVrZU36D8fw0BkMIchZg_d8_4GYuMLhQ1xCuPU irvA3tsGA1Ofrrw2wEwl1vo2fhYZ6lGLkF0dju_DN86A2q2coKsdEBDc116cd76Fkld.B06sypy_ P5IGp5AySnKXLpEWv90lUiS4q3jBcMtBFhRAAm10TWU8Y2Ajtkbou6v2l5_CynFNB1pHChBSOjSJ 6XRKnVoK1cXoCR6rwPKjLZbM2mlxKSIwbwy82nqS4w_szgObHaFfP34r23M5t49XjwbpH4MyL32u QgsNzO4zg5c.myEMF7JEkjnTYPz8mYmLlGyrq9MZXR5ULo5Hge8ArpIIV26dnGlK6Y_wby0SUIkR s7lNuOQMvc1S8Z7DkSNeUqZw1lafXw2tPKHCkgXaKCkZkia3nggNgZwNr7nZ_5Zpj9tHPDKrhtzY swmKkmCZhbnFkPeOKS9y98biHz.reTylkoaeXzPVihFTLZYfbVVZ_4NjHc.UDXVQdbPexen9rJNW PejBT6iuCbJtkzyl3lQGMmyMeI6eIJtjxOLmzqurbgUlH14Q6GS3KNBdeiphVj1DMmEznVc5JGVW .GVo0Xi_HWWjw4PFyiuAAkDdLa9mrk.cqEKRGc1trIoRkNmgxm2022x4uRjWwsNu5.dhOoHr9nmB v633kpzudY3dkeR4JKZ7myQUuF_qTmP44Q.FR6b3hdE0ch23G8T3IQpL9QSQ_F7rDh.0Uncf60m7 ueqeRc5D4lQ9YYWBTkVLglA6qlJ9CciRqEuwsQBktbrH6jbCK1ErU3RWPTuSefOtR.Fe6hkmXgVz nohzUnLQwZXAemzW5Q89WyqN8NIaU3wkJyDoI2dRLkwj5DnHd8YW8aOZgMw80S2lz27bkV3tpVH2 5by0QNA5C.q7n_t5dgHzx4YyGXzJkT_rgMbDjT_6_R.7ZBLVNMcsl8DtG7WResqQlPQViEkS.mqw PL_bgdOEs.dBgs070TeWOePDiQzaELvfvsKelpbXSyIXYX6ZqVij_TeeLhHRdqWIBCdKNuOfA2X0 x5cuO41coT1cH8bty60fEFEEq.m63RpvXrcahiFLBoewPoK5zRAeHPMmwETtl9wVcGaHyRwaBOh7 pLABvO0drHFcz_.ZQ.U9dzxuNxnSgOCW_64wCPv0GKoUV53648FJ8nCNYM3.2SfeTOa8.r5LP_R4 VmaDLT9LQPP8Dj9EknXggRFo7xk64XgId5ro_fYrGzTvVvCte8BzKZ6ACFSq8PfDKB8n8SbiaPZD 6u7fgvraPbEamzv.mKBUTdYMOYqJclLoy4RuSEZx3snu8urtSWikPFJxkKLf5m69vXe25NpcoTfC lyj.Y X-Sonic-MF: <luangruo@HIDDEN> Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 02:06:59 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-ltdwf (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 26524ba057f35663cf4527a7118f97f4; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 02:04:56 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu <luangruo@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:04:51 +0800 Message-ID: <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 3358 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside > USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the > listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described > topic. I am not American, yet I understand most of the jokes in the Gnus manual. > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > Note: > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > back of her plastic chair. > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > find this section insulting. > > Further, the last sentence in > > =E2=80=98z=E2=80=99 > Suspend Gnus (=E2=80=98gnus-group-suspend=E2=80=99). This doesn=E2= =80=99t really exit > Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I=E2=80=99m= not > sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge? > > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused. > > 3.16 Group Topics > > If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group > them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups o= ver > here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or s= o?) > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You = can > even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs > groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! > > Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic, often > negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users), I simply feel > disoriented while trying to read this paragraph. I can understand the > first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a joke? Or are there useful > pieces of information coded inside? I think this joke is fairly obvious for anyone who has tried to browse a public news server. > After reading this info section, I feel that the amount of attempted > jokes is larger than the amount of useful information. This is > distracting (even though I do not mind an occasional joke, personally) > > 8 Scoring has > > Other people use =E2=80=9Ckill files=E2=80=9D, but we here at Gnus To= wers like scoring > better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight. They = do > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > attention! > > For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of > word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we > .. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that > make people feel uncomfortable. > > Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also > some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting > files on file system? Gnus is a news reader. Naturally, the indended audience of the jokes in its manual are those who read net news. Since you don't know what a kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that paragraph. The internet is for adults, not silly folk who cry about everything they don't understand.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 18:44:51 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 13:44:51 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49927 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pP6Tz-0000lp-Ho for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:44:51 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:57047) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pP6Ty-0000lb-13 for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:44:50 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A24C224013D for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 19:44:43 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675709083; bh=t70UWVpQAMmoQoi70NdOUuavTCSMBJkx+OpNg03F7b4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=GRKgGQqGDK6wWmU7mOllwzcnRWMYudRpKWLG6rImpTZP6+qUHNBIdM1EKz5xIrbER xNgUoAUiWyFl0zs+2Y7q8d9gSONtiUIvGM56MX/q+mThiU6SaQk1mpDZDqrygHYtgw 0/A8HLdxYAxcJ2AVyc5t83fnRSeh/pc+/t9xDa7QnvCqEry/3w5T9JGDgji7u0t87+ B9wEygcoJwj2nUuC2RXxdmVyYULm7/dMLpMbt/L7jedXsXBm/SLWOCrE2XcuKrBMTw BmaLKxXqour4/WfUox77tgg1CNKD2OaeJtaWju9Jet/0V9QTxQJDHeZBz8LSpWE8W+ LA6ZFQTTvwaPw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9Ztc3h4Bz9rxL; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 19:44:40 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87a61q4p3y.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87fsbihfna.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vy7kgs.fsf@localhost> <87a61q4p3y.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 18:45:16 +0000 Message-ID: <87cz6m7hvn.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@HIDDEN> writes: > Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > >> May you also take a look at the specific sections I listed? Do you find >> them easy to understand? I'd prefer to focus more on the specific >> examples I raised. I feel like the discussion will go nowhere otherwise. > > Most of the jokes are contextual. And sometimes they carry an assumption > that the user is already familiar with Emacs jargon. Sure, but what about the specific examples I provided? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 18:37:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 13:37:50 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49915 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pP6NB-0000Zt-RJ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:37:50 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:33698) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pP6NA-0000Zl-Dw for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:37:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pP6N5-0007Xh-G1 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:37:48 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pP6Ms-00036H-D1 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:37:43 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pP6Mp-0003kv-U3 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 19:37:27 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 00:07:21 +0530 Message-ID: <87a61q4p3y.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87fsbihfna.fsf@HIDDEN> <87h6vy7kgs.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Zzx9k4PjZBfw11YZ3beNQaABYIs= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > May you also take a look at the specific sections I listed? Do you find > them easy to understand? I'd prefer to focus more on the specific > examples I raised. I feel like the discussion will go nowhere otherwise. Most of the jokes are contextual. And sometimes they carry an assumption that the user is already familiar with Emacs jargon.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 17:49:20 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 12:49:20 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49824 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pP5cF-0007dP-PU for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:49:20 -0500 Received: from mail-qt1-f179.google.com ([209.85.160.179]:42584) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN>) id 1pP4EB-0004qj-Nm for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:20:23 -0500 Received: by mail-qt1-f179.google.com with SMTP id 5so3444054qtp.9 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 08:20:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Sj0knyxNMMJykHXWtOjkvvWyQThZDXkbTXx3gtyFX00=; b=Y51mE1veTRKVKmZK5V8eyUW6hobY+UkhJTeQ0bESdIlvioOo1gXU+B0NWr0fhc142A d5IYmQqPVBEruoub1Fy38BHKP6Wlw7YQGo/0YZzS+yH8zKEzI8hSCC1D5XfQEz6BDoZs FHTL/+wtakcqOJviV3Ba89uSkv2VGj3G2OsHYHYv7a+kPx0RWg0zXt6vnbyeHYcDVNaY w3JV+ZwfDxkq9fNB9j2oE3lDtC0rXNidfGQeRWGLSwEx9CA0KjPCDDbQ5TiKICOVORgi 4N8KBZyXRKVS2Spmpy/BASBk/S7Y/Xtxvg9J0Ud6POkY9efXb1gPjNvCUqtBHxuQIWWG mcOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Sj0knyxNMMJykHXWtOjkvvWyQThZDXkbTXx3gtyFX00=; b=CD6VW3bWiXL6twJbKiInIw0VSG/7n54yEV8Jz7zRhuaRaOPF0QGtsWuoXE4Gn9I+qF xJ8jhyCYDK7oUjXCVu+mHjhqYdeuNf4yAMb73+MdmepZUjpYZFDRM9qwLNdL4kWuLMm5 qPznh3KbID7PMLSXuBebM4mYgErEgKphTdW62j2Ow3Spj96SqRn+ws+fHnwXMsXXwBF0 Vf8spMSRCsrvhHhunEv1YBe/U6Ivu1a1xZlgak59ZxojXIIVrEVqxZu2V/IX2kokx02w yN0ZMW15XPjTQCmuNbmuL8k1MnRQz5lKzxz/l0+a+WAkGJLslbF+3chPlp/d4rbFIkPc rlHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUOJWatJi4r2Vj7Zx60KA2pcrHyNQIWrXnuUv6X9Gxx8M6Rdovy 7zWPVzkOuGn/XKxcrO5+iVc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8Yk/T5P/8jeo3zgV9L+60+EzmBvF7xoADzIsHMXhZhdV8UsnlYUBSGekLdVcuNjK8Yu0AEhA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:2ca:b0:3b9:b1a1:73ec with SMTP id a10-20020a05622a02ca00b003b9b1a173ecmr37837400qtx.23.1675700417887; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 08:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ool-45763be4.dyn.optonline.net. [69.118.59.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d24-20020ac851d8000000b003b82a07c4d6sm7452604qtn.84.2023.02.06.08.20.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 08:20:17 -0800 (PST) From: dick <dick.r.chiang@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:20:16 -0500 Message-ID: <87r0v2rcjj.fsf@dick> User-Agent: Gnus/5.14 (Gnus v5.14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:49:18 -0500 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) The guy was 20 when he wrote the now-in-retrospect mealy-mouthed and profoundly unfunny manual. Even I, someone who's repeatedly landed himself in hot water ribald off-color remarks, can see his attempts at levity and irreverence fall flat. Gnus is, by current standards, largely shit software, so its manual is oddly fitting. I wouldn't worry about it.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 17:49:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 12:49:03 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49819 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pP5by-0007cq-TW for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:49:03 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:50375) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pP5bw-0007cE-Df for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:49:01 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F02E02400D7 for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 18:48:53 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675705734; bh=XPfmNzem+gJ2npDc7A1MiAAWuOc4ILOgX1EgUHKfZUs=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=hu19jbcGivnPgqKUuz25uQ9h00P+b23rPRRFsYJH7O5KD0y1Do9WHrAB4jhZxNpJj dFjnizIkTLYrYCI8bZyA9qm/hkeE0AATrzWfYAvEMe/QEs8Ym/1Qt2YBPBcDpJ79Ps TTPCLyeIp/TgXqLz6tvCw8FzMCsqoOSt4aY2RT1o28NV9z16adhlXnTXluCMtycM8C nDPICfzjEGFlocFW61q6Gj0+dArVsjRUuFbsPL28R6PX+gwye+wwZ6dXWxyI82GPxo 3XMcHZ7PCeKUwguSmTYGvn1JfzQ/FS1WPJ7Uty45CVVahK7exmOPUUzTATVrwuVCzA wgKAGvXmr3gWg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9YfB5JKSz6tns; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 18:48:50 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87fsbihfna.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87fsbihfna.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 17:49:23 +0000 Message-ID: <87h6vy7kgs.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@HIDDEN> writes: >> While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside >> USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the >> listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described >> topic. > > I am outside USA, and I really enjoyed reading the Gnus manual. Infact, > this is one of those manuals which a user can read end-to-end in one > sitting, without getting bored. Thanks for the input! May you also take a look at the specific sections I listed? Do you find them easy to understand? I'd prefer to focus more on the specific examples I raised. I feel like the discussion will go nowhere otherwise. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 17:24:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 12:24:03 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49772 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pP5Dn-0006m2-Hy for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:24:03 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:35644) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pP5Dl-0006lY-J9 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:24:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pP5Di-0005gB-LM for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:23:58 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pP5DZ-0003hf-3K for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:23:58 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1pP5DH-0006cr-AA for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 18:23:31 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 22:53:21 +0530 Message-ID: <87fsbihfna.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:P5Hk8lUM1ZjcBEx83/M019deQds= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8 > Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find > the style of these sections insulting. > > While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside > USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the > listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described > topic. I am outside USA, and I really enjoyed reading the Gnus manual. Infact, this is one of those manuals which a user can read end-to-end in one sitting, without getting bored.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 17:03:48 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 12:03:48 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49756 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pP4uB-0006BA-Sc for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:03:48 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:52737) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pP4u8-0006Ar-TU for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:03:46 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AB4D2402CF for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 18:03:38 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675703019; bh=PnohWqS/dD04LEtsygnap6RyQe7fe3l5aYXDTz0oZ5M=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=Be3kQJwp2NNsgxsLKzdX6Ce88hM/XzrtUPA9txVveBuI5DnlaGI39dihcK16ps4nB Z/l8QVdfUmzorWT2IcCm29rtxFNsn0vjyaEswAiv0O+Kz8I8vOBwyGFdyq3tMzgFKE T2V5NIRcblDt6mf6Iks/RQZ2s4ZcXqt5ELv/vxYK6HvFRLtOu2GSAteq48LmEFMWQ5 Dw1+HoTcZ420FGsbf9kCiH6LQ3BHNbwLN05j4nwfyXqHfsnFxqCvoZw4VpsZrMzelU ilFldtX2N4qqSU7HAyUTaEDjYunPRAr253BJ1LSkYmJUYjbPxrt1wFg+/0geqbIive C3UGOKvsQUCag== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9Xf13F02z6tm6; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 18:03:37 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <83pmampwj8.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> <83pmampwj8.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 17:04:07 +0000 Message-ID: <87k00u7mk8.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered >> more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation >> is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs >> manuals? > > Who is overgeneralizing now? > > Are there such jokes in our manuals? I was trying to provide illustration that helps to understand the perspective of non-USA user. Apparently, it was not helpful. Feel free to ignore this kind of example. The previous two paragraphs are the main statement. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:51:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 11:51:18 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49734 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pP4i6-0005nQ-6C for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:51:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51922) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pP4i4-0005nA-NO for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:51:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pP4hz-0005Vf-D6; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:51:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=hFFGZyV6g8jUj3fMDQRBhwgtAQP9fLSy+dDl0iMs+Cc=; b=REOjIzOo1E2X vAAiVGpA+Ud7KJ36CzxBi/RReiBGGGvAaAayqOa3IBonnlJzMO/mJ9nIjzdi6nikvKJOn4EyaaYnE MrCZ5qpLFKoW5j3BgQ/i4G2zAN1b226nc/p0bUdosnP+Z5b23sKIr30Qff8bwi4SXTudh1Pu9iaFb frsiPVaL5ndE5LsGOmxw4fOCR+R9POI8IaLOHwZLERfUUfuEPXjCF3PMwhGmBNDB3HNG84LM4lXkp rXGaohktq84PjjPc1HDklaGTNYSNFkYpTon0CBaaayVM7YoM8lkQu9Bg2Amch1hPxkyJKAt7QYPxl QmsL6J7PcEGUWs4Iut1vzw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pP4hy-0000BZ-6l; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:51:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 18:51:23 +0200 Message-Id: <83pmampwj8.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:38:44 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> > Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:38:44 +0000 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > >> I object jokes that make people feel uncomfortable. > > > > It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable. > > The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what > > a sad world would that be! (Come to think about, the only way to > > never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.) > > You are overgeneralizing. > Some jokes make larger fraction of people uncomfortable than others. > There should be a borderline. > > Of course, drawing a line is tricky. However, the topics like sex and > bullying are considered uncomfortable by whole cultures, not just > individuals. I judge such jokes as over the border. > > For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered > more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation > is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs > manuals? Who is overgeneralizing now? Are there such jokes in our manuals?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:42:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 11:42:07 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49707 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pP4ZD-0005Tm-Fq for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:42:07 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:54737) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pP4ZB-0005TH-Q0 for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:42:06 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E3AD2401DE for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 17:42:00 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675701720; bh=PhqR8nmquaMkYqwqxFW60GR6JuPgmF7Epk28zKu6qYA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=QSyEbf/DaKnM5mM+H5hSs57NDxnYxKYgIjCnSZeMyg8iHnJG/HcQXb76vv+HMdru2 NpBoyeEgn8shN9ZUFprRMx31NTIj5QT6qoQB795KHtG4Obe/KfBHHo9M3lo490s44z QiZkmTMELxJ5gj/pq46xJDJSTRJTuxMJ6eIRrX7wcvI+W3zu0w+z+ByGTzN0uf9ySG yzXF74DuGzLIQrCzath7DzjpPEIQ7oHEUec5bfYqFsSRs0JaN5wk/zPNl4+VkYvTfN eMHTB65Sh5s/xScV3mgYH2dvXJZQwdNvOGYEqD8SOQlxgYzMGmiITxJ/z7QYdfpf4c UZMVrZhXg3Vqw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9X935pJ8z9rxB; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 17:41:59 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@HIDDEN> <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:42:29 +0000 Message-ID: <87mt5q7nka.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes: > For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered > more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation > is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs > manuals? *I was referring to USA taking race jokes more seriously. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:38:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 11:38:23 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49702 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pP4Va-0005NL-PY for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:38:23 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:53883) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <yantar92@HIDDEN>) id 1pP4VZ-0005N9-4j for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:38:21 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FC3A2402AB for <61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 17:38:15 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675701495; bh=bdkNUzvMM+WOC8KRdOp7nYsIpfPhaM6CP1jgUXvV2qI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=NHcBlmPasvX7bSgWfOjTNtz/wiCWqv6nL36+SyX3/JvMYy81mJi+1Cj8USzVUMICz G5i3yJ4krdnpve/SMMyBlTxobL3ezcui9/zWZYIDxactZE46RZjFMXS/UthScd4qg7 8duvDCkaF1N4DFYHWAGauLYMKsd92PkPNCd9+AVNadmjHLsYEbworO5daA+dln9cQw actnKnlRFhq7bo29ke089O8WJcXT4Rem+XKlMAxaX64tuyRMOf6fDOACNfREZLn0rv qkVtwAxX5B6drb4lsqxy5q1mwKzAvcrGh988iOIZK1gmro+8ZnzGne0J8JhUhIEObY QOwsIyK8Qjn5g== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9X4k24h0z9rxL; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 17:38:14 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <83sffipxn8.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:38:44 +0000 Message-ID: <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> I object jokes that make people feel uncomfortable. > > It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable. > The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what > a sad world would that be! (Come to think about, the only way to > never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.) You are overgeneralizing. Some jokes make larger fraction of people uncomfortable than others. There should be a borderline. Of course, drawing a line is tricky. However, the topics like sex and bullying are considered uncomfortable by whole cultures, not just individuals. I judge such jokes as over the border. For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs manuals? >> Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also >> some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting >> files on file system? > > A "kill file" is a filter that discards posts you don't want to read, > ever. For whatever reasons. See > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file Thanks for the reference. So, this sentence is not a joke. A footnote would help for younger users, who haven't heard about Usenet. (I've heard, but I am not familiar with English segment jargon). -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#61325; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:27:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 11:27:18 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49690 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pP4Ks-00053H-AH for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:27:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45042) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pP4Kq-00052y-J6 for 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:27:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pP4Kk-0000Le-Qs; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:27:10 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Ab/lw5+BBYe8eCUMhY11uT4RjPukB2e4tVgCP7r+VEo=; b=dbXPr6Ba8b1b 8lQYtqM3y9JpysJCvL079lhd+OwYeuIAXm5Txd8iQ7/Trr+mIIRSwbO80LOVWW2ZFw9fNQpMBGdFT 7yLI2UvcaT6KFsDN7OvA7xCI3GJimRF0Nb+zQ759Tk+CTYSbpmRIOi/DnGVIB1lISsUhr+I0Ne/3C enN5KitY89lGKZxtFINcFOoeItnklMfmxjFa0zwgXJehIjwLVw1E0u0qx8OS34xcwlKwkJQXsCnaW GSJk2WKQBmo7NbdTJqh6My5v5AYP6jh54TMTFgJs5BqDiIrPtMEEjotP7aayWM8HkO1xUk5Gz00Jj rNVym7V+EWB0TK30uvXF/w==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pP4Kk-00036n-4N; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:27:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 18:27:23 +0200 Message-Id: <83sffipxn8.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> > Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000 > > I object jokes that make people feel uncomfortable. It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable. The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what a sad world would that be! (Come to think about, the only way to never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.) > Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also > some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting > files on file system? A "kill file" is a filter that discards posts you don't want to read, ever. For whatever reasons. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file
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From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual
Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000
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Hi,
I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8
Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find
the style of these sections insulting.
While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside
USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the
listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described
topic.
3.15 Exiting Gnus has
Note:
Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
back of her plastic chair.
I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
find this section insulting.
Further, the last sentence in
=E2=80=98z=E2=80=99
Suspend Gnus (=E2=80=98gnus-group-suspend=E2=80=99). This doesn=E2=80=
=99t really exit
Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I=E2=80=99m n=
ot
sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge?
is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function
is useless? Discouraged? I am confused.
3.16 Group Topics
If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over
here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can
even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild!
Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic, often
negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users), I simply feel
disoriented while trying to read this paragraph. I can understand the
first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a joke? Or are there useful
pieces of information coded inside?
After reading this info section, I feel that the amount of attempted
jokes is larger than the amount of useful information. This is
distracting (even though I do not mind an occasional joke, personally)
8 Scoring has
Other people use =E2=80=9Ckill files=E2=80=9D, but we here at Gnus Towe=
rs like scoring
better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight. They do
something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
attention!
For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of
word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we
.. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that
make people feel uncomfortable.
Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also
some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting
files on file system?
--=20
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
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