Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
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Sun, 12 Mar 2023 18:18:15 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#62146: 26.3; Allow users to get help on y/n prompt Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#62146: 26.3; Allow users to get help on y/n prompt Thread-Index: AdlU/kRcfIISlODFSr6yp+5KSRXYagACrKzRAAESq2A= Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 18:18:15 +0000 Message-ID: <SJ0PR10MB54888E573620F109B12BFB3AF3B89@HIDDEN> References: <SJ0PR10MB54887601160C2B2FF517D2FBF3B89@HIDDEN> <83r0ttub4i.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <83r0ttub4i.fsf@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|DS7PR10MB5151:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6da2580c-367c-4734-a153-08db232625b5 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6da2580c-367c-4734-a153-08db232625b5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Mar 2023 18:18:15.1134 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: xDnCjmCJ6eohPLQ/y2U2P17bdJCmeotXBMmSMC7YpGZ4/MUnJX5X1sIc60qDjGxWhE3kIHzkl1xxKPSr+y9unw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DS7PR10MB5151 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.254,Aquarius:18.0.942,Hydra:6.0.573,FMLib:17.11.170.22 definitions=2023-03-12_04,2023-03-10_01,2023-02-09_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=956 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2212070000 definitions=main-2303120160 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: H_WRXX5-lJjmsbGc_5yUHDE74fB6gncs X-Proofpoint-GUID: H_WRXX5-lJjmsbGc_5yUHDE74fB6gncs X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62146 Cc: "62146 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <62146 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > Please consider allowing a help character, such as `?' or `C-h', to > > give users more info about y/n prompting - info that might help with th= is > > user's confusion (maybe some info such as that offered by NickD's > > answer). >=20 > The help info is right above the prompt. >=20 > And I don't really understand what that user wanted to do, and why he > tried doing that when prompted for a y/n response. >=20 > > Consider, in particular, the context of hitting a key for a disabled > > command (the OP's context), and seeing the Help text for dealing with > > disabled commands, including a link that is impossible to access while > > in the y/n read. >=20 > To cancel type 'n' -- this text is right in the face of the user. I'm guessing it might help to make clear that `n' will hide buffer *Disabled Command*, but it's not killed and you can get back to it (e.g. to read it again, follow the link, or whatever) using `C-x b'. Another aid might be to not hide *Disabled Command*. Another aid might be to also point/link to (emacs) `Disabling', for more information about disabled commands. `i disabled command' takes you to that node, and although the info there is mostly about disabling (and enabling disabled) commands, it also explains what a disabled command means etc. I think the general point is that (1) showing text that links somewhere, while not letting you follow the link and (2) hiding that text if you use `n' (or anything else), introduces unnecessary confusion. It's a bit as if the y/n dialog were ignorant of the text being shown. That text can invite a quest for more info, but the simple y/n dialog prevents that. I can understand why/how a user might think/say "Wtf?" You may disagree that this dialog/info could or should be improved, of course.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#62146; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 62146) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Mar 2023 17:34:58 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 12 13:34:58 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33033 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1pbPb0-0004ZN-Ih for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 13:34:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53948) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pbPay-0004ZA-JS for 62146 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 13:34:56 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pbPat-0008Ck-0L; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 13:34:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=aGgHHJhs5YhpoEOsI3lqZR/ja1hxXXCioEW4MJAs0f8=; b=XEDKGqD/meY6 DnohBzt0SX4Nx064Bq2S+8vwmM2OFTcwETckPa4RySWCLJ7us22qahBji22/a8s0sz74L5sSWn95M Y7coeUYFm+FMWa5rVn2NeHTjPPew5VL1d+uk0LZfWbH1CFVjZ2bwuvIAElWoyJ3KpSbiMqE6Y/6P2 edQXkYpLIfoSvy/huuY+EmrfFbLr7pUEx4nTQNDeU8xo/bbH9ZztKySlYYIGhhQTHMCZIxAqk8HPX Ps3BQMPvTu/vPjvP12UASVY+Kqt9J7RbMxWYKoJYW7G11oNonSPGx/mD6yeno9Rf71madePxanWLX F9MPa8mP6AvHzuefePTXgg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1pbPas-0008HM-7e; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 13:34:50 -0400 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 19:34:37 +0200 Message-Id: <83r0ttub4i.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <SJ0PR10MB54887601160C2B2FF517D2FBF3B89@HIDDEN> (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:18:52 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#62146: 26.3; Allow users to get help on y/n prompt References: <SJ0PR10MB54887601160C2B2FF517D2FBF3B89@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62146 Cc: 62146 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:18:52 +0000 > > See https://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/76235. > > Please consider allowing a help character, such as `?' or `C-h', to give > users more info about y/n prompting - info that might help with this > user's confusion (maybe some info such as that offered by NickD's > answer). The help info is right above the prompt. And I don't really understand what that user wanted to do, and why he tried doing that when prompted for a y/n response. > Consider, in particular, the context of hitting a key for a disabled > command (the OP's context), and seeing the Help text for dealing with > disabled commands, including a link that is impossible to access while > in the y/n read. To cancel type 'n' -- this text is right in the face of the user.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#62146; Package emacs.
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envelope-from=drew.adams@HIDDEN; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) See https://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/76235. Please consider allowing a help character, such as `?' or `C-h', to give users more info about y/n prompting - info that might help with this user's confusion (maybe some info such as that offered by NickD's answer). Consider, in particular, the context of hitting a key for a disabled command (the OP's context), and seeing the Help text for dealing with disabled commands, including a link that is impossible to access while in the y/n read. In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 built on CIRROCUMULUS Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19044
Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#62146; Package emacs.
Full text available.
GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
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1994-97 Ian Jackson.