GNU logs - #63072, boring messages

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Subject: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones
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Hi,

I noticed that the current "bsd" CC mode style is not compliant with what all BSDs have been doing since their inception. This is the first patch.

Also, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have been having more stringent requirements (as documented in their style(9) manpage; for more than 20 years). So the second patch creates specific "freebsd" and "openbsd" styles deriving from "bsd" and adding just the two additional requirements.

Patches to be attached after the bug report is created and assigned an ID.

Regards.

-- 
Olivier Certner

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Subject: bug#63072: Acknowledgement (28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and
 add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones)
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Subject: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones
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> From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>
> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:49:09 +0200
> 
> I noticed that the current "bsd" CC mode style is not compliant with what all BSDs have been doing since their inception. This is the first patch.

ENOPATCH, but in any case, I don't think we can change a style that
was in use for such a long time.  So I suggest instead to create a new
style, say bsd2 or somesuch.

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Subject: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones
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> ENOPATCH,

Yes. See end of initial message + was temporarily distracted.

> but in any case, I don't think we can change a style that
> was in use for such a long time.  So I suggest instead to create a new
> style, say bsd2 or somesuch.

That may be a problem, not so much for the ancient "bsd", but for the new 
ones.

After more reading, it seems that this "bsd" is in fact Allman's style, which 
indeed differs for the style used by BSD projects. So, I'm pondering with 
using "bsd-knf" instead (for Kernel Normal Form), which appears to be the 
dedicated term (and is even documented in Wikipedia).

What I intend to do with "freebsd" and "openbsd" is to have styles reflecting 
the current practice for these projects. Which means they can (in fact, most 
probably will) be changed in the future according to how they amend their 
style guidelines. If this policy of changes is documented, is that OK?

For those who want to use the current style for whatever project they have and 
don't want it to change afterwards, we could, e.g., make "freebsd" an alias of 
some "freebsd1" style (let's say, for version 1), and they would "freebsd1", 
i.e., a specific version that will not change. I'm not sure if this will be 
useful for some people, but at least it is cheap to do so we should probably 
do it even if in the end nobody would use it.

I think I need a little bit more reading and pondering (and your answers) 
before I can actually submit meaningful patches. (So the interruption might 
have been a blessing.)

Thanks.

-- 
Olivier Certner

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> From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 22:57:29 +0200
> 
> After more reading, it seems that this "bsd" is in fact Allman's style, which 
> indeed differs for the style used by BSD projects. So, I'm pondering with 
> using "bsd-knf" instead (for Kernel Normal Form), which appears to be the 
> dedicated term (and is even documented in Wikipedia).

Renaming old styles is also a problem, but new styles can be named as
we see fit, of course.

> What I intend to do with "freebsd" and "openbsd" is to have styles reflecting 
> the current practice for these projects. Which means they can (in fact, most 
> probably will) be changed in the future according to how they amend their 
> style guidelines. If this policy of changes is documented, is that OK?

If documented that these styles change to follow the corresponding
projects, it might be okay, but do we really want to commit ourselves
to follow them from now to eternity?  That's a non-trivial maintenance
burden, unless the projects themselves take that up upon themselves,
and will be submitting changes whenever their conventions change.

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Hi,

> If documented that these styles change to follow the corresponding
> projects, it might be okay, but do we really want to commit ourselves
> to follow them from now to eternity?  That's a non-trivial maintenance
> burden, unless the projects themselves take that up upon themselves,
> and will be submitting changes whenever their conventions change.

But I never said we would commit to that. On the contrary, what I would like 
is that the documentation says clearly that "freebsd" and "openbsd" may 
change, so that people are aware they cannot rely on these styles to always 
remain the same (contrary to the old styles). So that's rather a non-
commitment.

Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just be 
updated on a best-effort basis.

Is that OK?

-- 
Olivier Certner

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> From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:28:17 +0200
> 
> > If documented that these styles change to follow the corresponding
> > projects, it might be okay, but do we really want to commit ourselves
> > to follow them from now to eternity?  That's a non-trivial maintenance
> > burden, unless the projects themselves take that up upon themselves,
> > and will be submitting changes whenever their conventions change.
> 
> But I never said we would commit to that. On the contrary, what I would like 
> is that the documentation says clearly that "freebsd" and "openbsd" may 
> change, so that people are aware they cannot rely on these styles to always 
> remain the same (contrary to the old styles). So that's rather a non-
> commitment.
> 
> Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just be 
> updated on a best-effort basis.

The "best-effort" part is what bothers me.  We introduce these new
styles because the relevant projects change the styles, and then we
basically tell users: don't expect these styles to actually follow
those projects, except by luck?  Does that make sense?

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> > Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just
> > be updated on a best-effort basis.
> 
> The "best-effort" part is what bothers me.  We introduce these new
> styles because the relevant projects change the styles, and then we
> basically tell users: don't expect these styles to actually follow
> those projects, except by luck?  Does that make sense?

By luck? The last changes in these styles with a practical consequence for CC 
mode were done more than 20 years ago. Had the changes proposed here been done 
at that time, users would have been able to use the right style since then.

Truth is, users not having the right style would be extremely unlucky, given 
the rate of changes (practically zero). These styles are *intended* to follow 
these projects' practice. And they will so more than 99% of the time. Of 
course, if a style changes and requires a CC style modification, then someone 
will have to submit it and in the meantime users will have to live with the 
discrepancy. Is that what really bothers you? That's what best effort means. 
Again, this will be useful to the relevant users more than 99% of the time.

-- 
Olivier Certner

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> From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:31:28 +0200
> 
> > > Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just
> > > be updated on a best-effort basis.
> > 
> > The "best-effort" part is what bothers me.  We introduce these new
> > styles because the relevant projects change the styles, and then we
> > basically tell users: don't expect these styles to actually follow
> > those projects, except by luck?  Does that make sense?
> 
> By luck? The last changes in these styles with a practical consequence for CC 
> mode were done more than 20 years ago. Had the changes proposed here been done 
> at that time, users would have been able to use the right style since then.
> 
> Truth is, users not having the right style would be extremely unlucky, given 
> the rate of changes (practically zero). These styles are *intended* to follow 
> these projects' practice. And they will so more than 99% of the time. Of 
> course, if a style changes and requires a CC style modification, then someone 
> will have to submit it and in the meantime users will have to live with the 
> discrepancy. Is that what really bothers you? That's what best effort means. 
> Again, this will be useful to the relevant users more than 99% of the time.

If the styles don't change in practice, then I'm okay with adding
them.  But then I wonder why you bothered to mention the fact that
they do change.

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> If the styles don't change in practice, then I'm okay with adding
> them.  But then I wonder why you bothered to mention the fact that
> they do change.

I thought this was clear, but apparently not. I mentioned the possibility of a 
change, yes, because you and I care about backwards compatibility. To quote 
you: "I don't think we can change a style that was in use for such a long 
time".

There may be changes in the project styles, maybe next month, maybe in ten 
years, maybe in twenty. I do not think the probability is 0 over such a long 
period of time. What I would not want is you or someone else telling me in 10 
or 20 years, after such a change: "I don't think we can change a style that 
was in use for such a long time". What I want instead is that, e.g., "freebsd" 
can be changed as necessary. I specifically do not want to then be told to 
create another style named "freebsd2" or whatever. For that to be possible, 
users must be warned that these styles, although almost always stable, are 
not, and will not, be set in stone for eternity, contrary to, perhaps, "bsd" 
or "whitesmith". And I even offered a scheme with additional styles that will 
never change, if you think that is useful (I think it might be and is so cheap 
to implement that I think we should do it anyway, even if in the end nobody 
uses it).

Is that clear now?

-- 
Olivier Certner

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> From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:09:21 +0200
> 
> > If the styles don't change in practice, then I'm okay with adding
> > them.  But then I wonder why you bothered to mention the fact that
> > they do change.
> 
> I thought this was clear, but apparently not. I mentioned the possibility of a 
> change, yes, because you and I care about backwards compatibility. To quote 
> you: "I don't think we can change a style that was in use for such a long 
> time".
> 
> There may be changes in the project styles, maybe next month, maybe in ten 
> years, maybe in twenty. I do not think the probability is 0 over such a long 
> period of time. What I would not want is you or someone else telling me in 10 
> or 20 years, after such a change: "I don't think we can change a style that 
> was in use for such a long time". What I want instead is that, e.g., "freebsd" 
> can be changed as necessary. I specifically do not want to then be told to 
> create another style named "freebsd2" or whatever. For that to be possible, 
> users must be warned that these styles, although almost always stable, are 
> not, and will not, be set in stone for eternity, contrary to, perhaps, "bsd" 
> or "whitesmith". And I even offered a scheme with additional styles that will 
> never change, if you think that is useful (I think it might be and is so cheap 
> to implement that I think we should do it anyway, even if in the end nobody 
> uses it).
> 
> Is that clear now?

Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at
all.  Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change.

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> Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at
> all.  Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change.

Then maybe it's my turn not to understand. To me, allowing them to be changed 
in 10 years from now is singling them out with respect to, e.g., "bsd" which, 
as you said yourself in preamble, should not be changed after all these years.

Apart from this caveat, I'm fine with your conclusion. 

-- 
Olivier Certner

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> From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200
> 
> > Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at
> > all.  Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change.
> 
> Then maybe it's my turn not to understand. To me, allowing them to be changed 
> in 10 years from now is singling them out with respect to, e.g., "bsd" which, 
> as you said yourself in preamble, should not be changed after all these years.
> 
> Apart from this caveat, I'm fine with your conclusion. 

Let's see that patch of yours, then.

Thanks.

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Olivier Certner <ocert.dev@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: 63072 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200
>>
>> > Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at
>> > all.  Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change.
>>
>> Then maybe it's my turn not to understand. To me, allowing them to be changed
>> in 10 years from now is singling them out with respect to, e.g., "bsd" which,
>> as you said yourself in preamble, should not be changed after all these years.
>>
>> Apart from this caveat, I'm fine with your conclusion.
>
> Let's see that patch of yours, then.

Oliver, did you have a chance to look into this?

Thanks.

Last modified: Tue, 5 Sep 2023 16:15:01 UTC

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