Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs@HIDDEN>
to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MDO_DATING2,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 631) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 4 Aug 2008 11:38:27 +0000 Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m74BcNqu000513 for <631@HIDDEN>; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 04:38:25 -0700 Received: from c83-254-151-176.bredband.comhem.se ([83.254.151.176]:65267 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1KPyOM-0004U4-5d; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 13:38:23 +0200 Message-ID: <4896EA22.1050407@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 13:38:10 +0200 From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Wells <jbw@HIDDEN>, 631 <at> debbugs.gnu.org CC: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>, Yavor Doganov <yavor@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion References: <FAD16B45-9476-4589-A7BD-F8F4ACEB180A@HIDDEN> <E1KONS7-0006Yc-SW@HIDDEN> <4891F6BC.8010505@HIDDEN> <871w19utma.GNU's_Not_Unix!%yavor@HIDDEN> <mailman.15692.1217578047.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> <86ej55ujaf.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <86ej55ujaf.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080804-0, 2008-08-04), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Originating-IP: 83.254.151.176 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KPyOM-0004U4-5d. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1KPyOM-0004U4-5d f39d66bc0d8e0245f436fc23bb34ac9e Joe Wells wrote: > xah lee <xah@HIDDEN> writes: > >> The proposed change doesn't actually effect elisp code. It is primarly >> esthetic in nature. > > This is not true. There are many places in the Emacs Lisp code which > recognize the M- and C- notation. Thanks Joe for this list. I am thinking about the possibility to just change what is shown in menus and help texts (see my earlier reply to Xah's bug report). Such a change would of course be optional, but might help new users. With such a change there would of course be a steop for new users when they are just frustrated because they do not understand how to do key bindings, "why does not (kbd "Alt-<down>") work?", etc. And the manual would probably better still use the current notation (with a note about the new notation) because it is static and is read on different platform. So everything would not be better, but the initial treshold would probably be lower. Can you see any technical trouble with the changes I am suggesting could be done? > First, there is the read syntax (I'm using Emacs 22.1): > > ?\M-A ⇒ 134217793 > ?\M-\C-b ⇒ 134217730 > > "\M-A" ⇒ "\301" (yes, this is a bit different behavior for M-A) > > Then, there is the convention of making symbol names with prefixes for > use in key bindings: > > M-f3 > M-mouse-1 > M-drag-mouse-2 > M-double-mouse-2 > > Then, there is the lovely kbd macro for use in key bindings: > > (kbd "C-M-<down>") ⇒ [C-M-down] > > Then, there is the use of the M- and C- notation by edit-kbd-macro. > > Then, there are the key-description, single-key-description, and > read-kbd-macro functions: > > (key-description [?\M-3 delete]) ⇒ "M-3 <delete>" > > There is also the text-char-description function. >
"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MDO_DATING2,SPF_HELO_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 631) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 4 Aug 2008 11:33:13 +0000 Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.197]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m74BX9V6031559 for <631@HIDDEN>; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 04:33:10 -0700 Received: from [192.168.1.4] (c-24-6-97-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.6.97.120]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKpCa-1KPyJD3qHM-0004WS; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:33:07 -0400 In-Reply-To: <86ej55ujaf.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <FAD16B45-9476-4589-A7BD-F8F4ACEB180A@HIDDEN> <E1KONS7-0006Yc-SW@HIDDEN> <4891F6BC.8010505@HIDDEN> <871w19utma.GNU's_Not_Unix!%yavor@HIDDEN> <mailman.15692.1217578047.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> <86ej55ujaf.fsf@HIDDEN> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <93F0C12E-EA6F-49A6-AE86-4E49313345F6@HIDDEN> Cc: 631 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Yavor Doganov <yavor@HIDDEN> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 04:33:01 -0700 To: Joe Wells <jbw@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19251ztiaNhmNSVH+qTMLGpO515A/32FS1X6lv L6bEu2cQ5cnqQaFp2lYUXi3FHk34KHz9hRfFkNfszO4Sj2G+JK 2Od1omsCh3m+xPMwKHSTw== The change suggested is only about in emacs manual, emacs tutorial, =20 and in menus. There is no proposal to change emacs lisp's keyboard macro or elisp =20 functions. Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84 On Aug 4, 2008, at 4:11 AM, Joe Wells wrote: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN> writes: > The proposed change doesn't actually effect elisp code. It is primarly > esthetic in nature. This is not true. There are many places in the Emacs Lisp code which recognize the M- and C- notation. First, there is the read syntax (I'm using Emacs 22.1): ?\M-A =E2=87=92 134217793 ?\M-\C-b =E2=87=92 134217730 "\M-A" =E2=87=92 "\301" (yes, this is a bit different behavior for = M-A) Then, there is the convention of making symbol names with prefixes for use in key bindings: M-f3 M-mouse-1 M-drag-mouse-2 M-double-mouse-2 Then, there is the lovely kbd macro for use in key bindings: (kbd "C-M-<down>") =E2=87=92 [C-M-down] Then, there is the use of the M- and C- notation by edit-kbd-macro. Then, there are the key-description, single-key-description, and read-kbd-macro functions: (key-description [?\M-3 delete]) =E2=87=92 "M-3 <delete>" There is also the text-char-description function. --=20 Joe --=20 Heriot-Watt University is a Scottish charity registered under charity number SC000278. =E2=98=84
xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.2 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MDO_DATING2 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 631) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 4 Aug 2008 11:11:39 +0000 Received: from mail-r4.hw.ac.uk (mail-r.hw.ac.uk [137.195.101.219]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m74BBZLb025791 for <631@HIDDEN>; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 04:11:37 -0700 Received: from izanami.macs.hw.ac.uk ([137.195.13.6]) by mail-r.hw.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1KPxyD-0008MV-MR; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:11:21 +0100 Received: from lxultra1.macs.hw.ac.uk ([137.195.27.173]:34113 helo=127.0.0.1) by izanami.macs.hw.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 4.51) id 1KPxyC-0003gm-Re; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:11:20 +0100 Received: (nullmailer pid 5574 invoked by uid 1001); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 11:11:20 -0000 To: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN> Cc: 631 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Yavor Doganov <yavor@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion References: <FAD16B45-9476-4589-A7BD-F8F4ACEB180A@HIDDEN> <E1KONS7-0006Yc-SW@HIDDEN> <4891F6BC.8010505@HIDDEN> <871w19utma.GNU's_Not_Unix!%yavor@HIDDEN> <mailman.15692.1217578047.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> From: Joe Wells <jbw@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:11:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: <mailman.15692.1217578047.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> (xah lee's message of "Fri\, 1 Aug 2008 00\:42\:19 -0700") Message-ID: <86ej55ujaf.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-HW-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the HW Helpdesk for more information X-HW-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-HW-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=0, required 5, autolearn=not spam) X-HW-MailScanner-From: jbw@HIDDEN xah lee <xah@HIDDEN> writes: > The proposed change doesn't actually effect elisp code. It is primarly > esthetic in nature. This is not true. There are many places in the Emacs Lisp code which recognize the M- and C- notation. First, there is the read syntax (I'm using Emacs 22.1): ?\M-A =E2=87=92 134217793 ?\M-\C-b =E2=87=92 134217730 "\M-A" =E2=87=92 "\301" (yes, this is a bit different behavior for M-A) Then, there is the convention of making symbol names with prefixes for use in key bindings: M-f3 M-mouse-1 M-drag-mouse-2 M-double-mouse-2 Then, there is the lovely kbd macro for use in key bindings: (kbd "C-M-<down>") =E2=87=92 [C-M-down] Then, there is the use of the M- and C- notation by edit-kbd-macro. Then, there are the key-description, single-key-description, and read-kbd-macro functions: (key-description [?\M-3 delete]) =E2=87=92 "M-3 <delete>" There is also the text-char-description function. --=20 Joe --=20 Heriot-Watt University is a Scottish charity registered under charity number SC000278.
Joe Wells <jbw@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
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Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:37:17 +0200
From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
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To: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>,
631 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms@HIDDEN, xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>,
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN, yavor@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion
References: <FAD16B45-9476-4589-A7BD-F8F4ACEB180A@HIDDEN> <E1KONS7-0006Yc-SW@HIDDEN> <4891F6BC.8010505@HIDDEN> <871w19utma.GNU's_Not_Unix!%yavor@HIDDEN>
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Yavor Doganov wrote:
> Lennart Borgman (gmail) wrote:
>> I think both the menus and the help command should reflect the
>> actual keyboard labeling (for a standard keyboard on the used OS).
>
> IMHO this is close to impossible, since GNU/Linux runs on a variety
> (at least 10) architectures, including archaic and modern machines
> that have vastly different keyboards. So there are many "standard
> keyboards" for the OS GNU/Linux, also for the various free variants of
> BSD.
I am not suggesting that this should work for every keyboard, but it
could work for the most common. In the other cases we could just stick
to the current notation in help and menus.
> "M-" existed since about forever; wiping it out will do more harm than
> good. If a new Emacs user has problems understanding it and finding
> the right key on her keyboard, she surely will have much more problems
> with other Emacs features, let alone more complicated concepts and
> advanced usage.
Why? I remember myself searching for the <copy> key for example.
> Also, you should not consider only the Emacs manual. Think of the
> tens or hundreds of manuals of add-on packages, non-Emacs packages
> (like Texinfo), and knowledge base like the mailing lists or sites
> like the Emacs Wiki. Changing something as fundamental as this for no
> apparent benefit is a bad idea. IMHO.
I do not think it is realistic or useful to change the manuals. It is
static. I also do not think the notation for adding key binding can be
changed. However the dynamic bits in menus and help can perhaps be
changed without a very big effort. That change can be useful for newcomers.
I think this could be handled by just changing some central code in
Emacs, but I am not sure. Here is a list of what I think must be handled:
Implement M- => Alt-
- Change push_key_description
- Increase #define KEY_DESCRIPTION_SIZE ((2 * 6) + 1 +
(CHARACTERBITS / 3) + 1 + 1)
- Add option for whether to do M- => Alt-
- Add keyboard values
- Add OS dependent default values for "Alt"
- Change the macro that reads those key sequences and converts them
to vector format
I might be missing a lot of things so please add to this list if you are
interested.
"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion
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Yavor Doganov wrote:
> Lennart Borgman (gmail) wrote:
>> I think both the menus and the help command should reflect the
>> actual keyboard labeling (for a standard keyboard on the used OS).
>
> IMHO this is close to impossible, since GNU/Linux runs on a variety
> (at least 10) architectures, including archaic and modern machines
> that have vastly different keyboards. So there are many "standard
> keyboards" for the OS GNU/Linux, also for the various free variants of
> BSD.
I am not suggesting that this should work for every keyboard, but it
could work for the most common. In the other cases we could just stick
to the current notation in help and menus.
> "M-" existed since about forever; wiping it out will do more harm than
> good. If a new Emacs user has problems understanding it and finding
> the right key on her keyboard, she surely will have much more problems
> with other Emacs features, let alone more complicated concepts and
> advanced usage.
Why? I remember myself searching for the <copy> key for example.
> Also, you should not consider only the Emacs manual. Think of the
> tens or hundreds of manuals of add-on packages, non-Emacs packages
> (like Texinfo), and knowledge base like the mailing lists or sites
> like the Emacs Wiki. Changing something as fundamental as this for no
> apparent benefit is a bad idea. IMHO.
I do not think it is realistic or useful to change the manuals. It is
static. I also do not think the notation for adding key binding can be
changed. However the dynamic bits in menus and help can perhaps be
changed without a very big effort. That change can be useful for newcomers.
I think this could be handled by just changing some central code in
Emacs, but I am not sure. Here is a list of what I think must be handled:
Implement M- => Alt-
- Change push_key_description
- Increase #define KEY_DESCRIPTION_SIZE ((2 * 6) + 1 +
(CHARACTERBITS / 3) + 1 + 1)
- Add option for whether to do M- => Alt-
- Add keyboard values
- Add OS dependent default values for "Alt"
- Change the macro that reads those key sequences and converts them
to vector format
I might be missing a lot of things so please add to this list if you are
interested.
"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 00:42:19 -0700
To: Yavor Doganov <yavor@HIDDEN>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1)
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Lennart Borgman (gmail) wrote:
=C2=ABI think both the menus and the help command should reflect the =20
actual keyboard labeling (for a standard keyboard on the used OS).=C2=BB
On Jul 31, 2008, at 11:39 PM, Yavor Doganov wrote:
=C2=AB
IMHO this is close to impossible, since GNU/Linux runs on a variety =20
(at least 10) architectures, including archaic and modern machines =20
that have vastly different keyboards. So there are many "standard =20
keyboards" for the OS GNU/Linux, also for the various free variants =20
of BSD.
=C2=BB
Microsoft Windows and GNU/Linux systems, together has about 95% =20
market share of all computing systems. Their keyboard is typically PC =20=
keyboard, which has i estimate 99.9% market share world wide. Apple's =20=
computers use their own Keyboard but also has Alt and Ctrl printed on =20=
the keys.
So, practically speaking, this wouldn't effect those ~0.1% machines =20
that emacs supports. For these users, typically they are advanced =20
programers and they know what they are doing. (for example, if they =20
want to browse the web, use a particular programing language, game, =20
or software, they will typically find those not supported or under =20
supported on their platform, but it is well expected.)
Yavor wrote:
=C2=AB
"M-" existed since about forever; wiping it out will do more harm =20
than good. If a new Emacs user has problems understanding it and =20
finding the right key on her keyboard, she surely will have much more =20=
problems with other Emacs features, let alone more complicated =20
concepts and advanced usage.
Also, you should not consider only the Emacs manual. Think of the =20
tens or hundreds of manuals of add-on packages, non-Emacs packages =20
(like Texinfo), and knowledge base like the mailing lists or sites =20
like the Emacs Wiki. Changing something as fundamental as this for =20
no apparent benefit is a bad idea. IMHO.
=C2=BB
I think you are right that to do this completely would be near =20
impossible, because that's over-riding some 25 or so years of emacs =20
history. However, i think the benefit still outweight the negatives.
Also, changes that are few order of magnitude happens in commericial =20
world often. A good example is Apple computer's switch from Motorola =20
chip to PPC chip ~1995, and Mac OS to OSX ~2001, and PPC chip to =20
Intel chip ~2006.
Some of these changes maintained some level of compatibility, but in =20
general it wiped out several years of accumulated code, =20
documentations, and world wide user expectations on how these =20
software worked. Same happens in Microsoft's products. These =20
commercial corps do that in order to survive.
Emacs does not have a survival problem, at least not in the sense of =20
commercial software. Emacs also have small number developers, most on =20=
a voluntary basis. I htink the effort required in this change is =20
relatively small, the benefit is arguably good because it reduces the =20=
number one complaint people have about emacs, namely being difficult =20
to use or learn.
The issue, about the impact of this manual change, on past emacs =20
related documents, esoteric systems, and old emac user's =20
expectations, is neglectable i think, because software systems =20
changes all the time with accumulated baggage. For a OpenSource =20
example, Perl went from perl4 to a incompatible perl5 starting in =20
1993, and it went on to thrive in the dot com era (~1998).
The proposed change doesn't actually effect elisp code. It is =20
primarly esthetic in nature.
There's a large thread discussing this issue, at:
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:36:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What does 'run' do in cperl-mode?
http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.help/browse_frm/thread/=20
5b81fcfd40d1f4ca/
After the first 5 or so messages, the rest 60 or so is about =20
discussing M- vs Alt+ issue.
The debate is somewhat heated, but i think it hasn't degerated into =20
bad usenet flame feast. Most disagree with the change. If would be =20
great if those of you interested in the issue have a peek there.
Xah
=E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/
=E2=98=84
xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 00:42:19 -0700
To: Yavor Doganov <yavor@HIDDEN>
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Lennart Borgman (gmail) wrote:
=C2=ABI think both the menus and the help command should reflect the =20
actual keyboard labeling (for a standard keyboard on the used OS).=C2=BB
On Jul 31, 2008, at 11:39 PM, Yavor Doganov wrote:
=C2=AB
IMHO this is close to impossible, since GNU/Linux runs on a variety =20
(at least 10) architectures, including archaic and modern machines =20
that have vastly different keyboards. So there are many "standard =20
keyboards" for the OS GNU/Linux, also for the various free variants =20
of BSD.
=C2=BB
Microsoft Windows and GNU/Linux systems, together has about 95% =20
market share of all computing systems. Their keyboard is typically PC =20=
keyboard, which has i estimate 99.9% market share world wide. Apple's =20=
computers use their own Keyboard but also has Alt and Ctrl printed on =20=
the keys.
So, practically speaking, this wouldn't effect those ~0.1% machines =20
that emacs supports. For these users, typically they are advanced =20
programers and they know what they are doing. (for example, if they =20
want to browse the web, use a particular programing language, game, =20
or software, they will typically find those not supported or under =20
supported on their platform, but it is well expected.)
Yavor wrote:
=C2=AB
"M-" existed since about forever; wiping it out will do more harm =20
than good. If a new Emacs user has problems understanding it and =20
finding the right key on her keyboard, she surely will have much more =20=
problems with other Emacs features, let alone more complicated =20
concepts and advanced usage.
Also, you should not consider only the Emacs manual. Think of the =20
tens or hundreds of manuals of add-on packages, non-Emacs packages =20
(like Texinfo), and knowledge base like the mailing lists or sites =20
like the Emacs Wiki. Changing something as fundamental as this for =20
no apparent benefit is a bad idea. IMHO.
=C2=BB
I think you are right that to do this completely would be near =20
impossible, because that's over-riding some 25 or so years of emacs =20
history. However, i think the benefit still outweight the negatives.
Also, changes that are few order of magnitude happens in commericial =20
world often. A good example is Apple computer's switch from Motorola =20
chip to PPC chip ~1995, and Mac OS to OSX ~2001, and PPC chip to =20
Intel chip ~2006.
Some of these changes maintained some level of compatibility, but in =20
general it wiped out several years of accumulated code, =20
documentations, and world wide user expectations on how these =20
software worked. Same happens in Microsoft's products. These =20
commercial corps do that in order to survive.
Emacs does not have a survival problem, at least not in the sense of =20
commercial software. Emacs also have small number developers, most on =20=
a voluntary basis. I htink the effort required in this change is =20
relatively small, the benefit is arguably good because it reduces the =20=
number one complaint people have about emacs, namely being difficult =20
to use or learn.
The issue, about the impact of this manual change, on past emacs =20
related documents, esoteric systems, and old emac user's =20
expectations, is neglectable i think, because software systems =20
changes all the time with accumulated baggage. For a OpenSource =20
example, Perl went from perl4 to a incompatible perl5 starting in =20
1993, and it went on to thrive in the dot com era (~1998).
The proposed change doesn't actually effect elisp code. It is =20
primarly esthetic in nature.
There's a large thread discussing this issue, at:
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:36:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What does 'run' do in cperl-mode?
http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.help/browse_frm/thread/=20
5b81fcfd40d1f4ca/
After the first 5 or so messages, the rest 60 or so is about =20
discussing M- vs Alt+ issue.
The debate is somewhat heated, but i think it hasn't degerated into =20
bad usenet flame feast. Most disagree with the change. If would be =20
great if those of you interested in the issue have a peek there.
Xah
=E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/
=E2=98=84
xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Yavor Doganov <yavor@HIDDEN>
To: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>,
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Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion
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Lennart Borgman (gmail) wrote:
>
> I think both the menus and the help command should reflect the
> actual keyboard labeling (for a standard keyboard on the used OS).
IMHO this is close to impossible, since GNU/Linux runs on a variety
(at least 10) architectures, including archaic and modern machines
that have vastly different keyboards. So there are many "standard
keyboards" for the OS GNU/Linux, also for the various free variants of
BSD.
"M-" existed since about forever; wiping it out will do more harm than
good. If a new Emacs user has problems understanding it and finding
the right key on her keyboard, she surely will have much more problems
with other Emacs features, let alone more complicated concepts and
advanced usage.
Also, you should not consider only the Emacs manual. Think of the
tens or hundreds of manuals of add-on packages, non-Emacs packages
(like Texinfo), and knowledge base like the mailing lists or sites
like the Emacs Wiki. Changing something as fundamental as this for no
apparent benefit is a bad idea. IMHO.
Yavor Doganov <yavor@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.5 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Aug 2008 06:54:58 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m716ssUP026847 for <submit@HIDDEN>; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:54:55 -0700 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KOoXN-0001mB-T3 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 02:54:53 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KOoXM-0001lt-EG for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 02:54:53 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=54160 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KOoXM-0001lq-9W for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 02:54:52 -0400 Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]:2940) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from <xah@HIDDEN>) id 1KOoXH-0005eU-SM; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 02:54:48 -0400 Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.195]) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from <xah@HIDDEN>) id 1KOoXG-0003jq-R7; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 02:54:47 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.4] (c-24-6-97-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.6.97.120]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus0) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKp8S-1KOoWu2G79-0005uX; Fri, 01 Aug 2008 02:54:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: <E1KOgD5-000782-Ii@HIDDEN> References: <FAD16B45-9476-4589-A7BD-F8F4ACEB180A@HIDDEN> <E1KONS7-0006Yc-SW@HIDDEN> <FD86CBE0-D920-48F2-92D7-7BC4EE5124CE@HIDDEN> <E1KOgD5-000782-Ii@HIDDEN> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4F14572A-FA01-42A4-ABB7-52A9197BF3BC@HIDDEN> Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:53:06 -0700 To: rms@HIDDEN X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX196UntNhD3aQ2pw9xlgxOLnsOxE2PZfpYPDnIN zCtgsBxJ6TqchgquapTvbwdgcRl4wQ4I8TiY6XVFG8+7vO8Gic YHzBC6CQ4aqUfVTVHehBA== X-detected-kernel: by mx20.gnu.org: Linux 2.6? (barebone, rare!) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) PS if someone send me url for the texinfo source for the emacs manual =20= and emacs tutorial, i'll be happy to send back the modifier version, =20 where any M- or C- notation is changed to Alt+ and Ctrl+, and any =20 relevant place that might needs to be edited. btw, the texinfo source for the emacs manual on the official gnu site =20= may be outdated or bad. Two years ago i tried to use it and ends up =20 spending several hours fruitless, finally got helped by given the url =20= for a good copy of the texinfo source. (For detail see http://=20 xahlee.org/emacs/gnu_doc.html ) Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84=
xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion
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Lennart Borgman (gmail) wrote:
>
> I think both the menus and the help command should reflect the
> actual keyboard labeling (for a standard keyboard on the used OS).
IMHO this is close to impossible, since GNU/Linux runs on a variety
(at least 10) architectures, including archaic and modern machines
that have vastly different keyboards. So there are many "standard
keyboards" for the OS GNU/Linux, also for the various free variants of
BSD.
"M-" existed since about forever; wiping it out will do more harm than
good. If a new Emacs user has problems understanding it and finding
the right key on her keyboard, she surely will have much more problems
with other Emacs features, let alone more complicated concepts and
advanced usage.
Also, you should not consider only the Emacs manual. Think of the
tens or hundreds of manuals of add-on packages, non-Emacs packages
(like Texinfo), and knowledge base like the mailing lists or sites
like the Emacs Wiki. Changing something as fundamental as this for no
apparent benefit is a bad idea. IMHO.
Yavor Doganov <yavor@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
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xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
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From: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:07:37 -0700
To: rms@HIDDEN
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On Jul 31, 2008, at 3:01 PM, Richard M Stallman wrote:
For the Emacs Manual I have a feeling this would be very wasteful.
But maybe it would be ok for some of the help commands, maybe even for
all of them.
Xah wrote:
Wasteful, as in too much effort and little benefit?
RMS wrote:
I mean reducing what's visible on a page, and wasting paper.
But someone could try it and see.
who's doing this?
and what about making the menu show the Alt+ and Ctrl+ notation? Is =20
anyone in particular doing it?
PS give me a hint perhaps on how to do the latter. I might experiment =20=
on both.
Xah
=E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/
=E2=98=84
xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
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xah lee on Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:53:21 -0700)
Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion
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> For the Emacs Manual I have a feeling this would be very wasteful.
> But maybe it would be ok for some of the help commands, maybe even for
> all of them.
Wasteful, as in too much effort and little benefit?
I mean reducing what's visible on a page, and wasting paper.
But someone could try it and see.
rms@HIDDEN:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
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To: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion
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> Linux has no user interface and its
> documentation has no reason to refer to any specific keys.
In Gnome or KDE, when you pull menus, doesn't the shortcut shows
beside the menu command names?
Yes, but neither GNOME nor KDE is part of Linux.
Linux is just the kernel.
rms@HIDDEN:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FOURLA, HAS_BUG_NUMBER,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 631) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 31 Jul 2008 17:30:53 +0000 Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m6VHUndG006636 for <631@HIDDEN>; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:30:51 -0700 Received: from c83-254-151-176.bredband.comhem.se ([83.254.151.176]:64379 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1KObzE-0002Iy-9T; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:30:49 +0200 Message-ID: <4891F6BC.8010505@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:30:36 +0200 From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@HIDDEN, 631 <at> debbugs.gnu.org CC: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion References: <FAD16B45-9476-4589-A7BD-F8F4ACEB180A@HIDDEN> <E1KONS7-0006Yc-SW@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <E1KONS7-0006Yc-SW@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080731-0, 2008-07-31), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Originating-IP: 83.254.151.176 X-ACL-Warn: Too high rate of unknown addresses received from you X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KObzE-0002Iy-9T. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1KObzE-0002Iy-9T ee51458f04af01c2a56af6efb1a9e229 Richard M Stallman wrote: > Using a notation that contains the actual label on keyboard's keys is > much easier to understand. A beginning computer user, can read the > ?Ctrl+?key?? notation and figure out which keys to press. > > There is some validity in that argument. > > For the Emacs Manual I have a feeling this would be very wasteful. > But maybe it would be ok for some of the help commands, maybe even for > all of them. Please put this on the TODO list. I think both the menus and the help command should reflect the actual keyboard labeling (for a standard keyboard on the used OS).
"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FOURLA, HAS_BUG_NUMBER,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 31 Jul 2008 17:31:01 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m6VHUwAl006643 for <submit@HIDDEN>; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:30:59 -0700 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KObzN-0001Vm-Gl for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:30:57 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KObzL-0001QL-3h for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:30:56 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=33066 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KObzL-0001QE-0r for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:30:55 -0400 Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net ([80.76.149.213]:57921) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1KObzH-0005w2-5y; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:30:51 -0400 Received: from c83-254-151-176.bredband.comhem.se ([83.254.151.176]:64379 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>) id 1KObzE-0002Iy-9T; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:30:49 +0200 Message-ID: <4891F6BC.8010505@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:30:36 +0200 From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@HIDDEN, 631 <at> debbugs.gnu.org CC: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion References: <FAD16B45-9476-4589-A7BD-F8F4ACEB180A@HIDDEN> <E1KONS7-0006Yc-SW@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <E1KONS7-0006Yc-SW@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080731-0, 2008-07-31), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Originating-IP: 83.254.151.176 X-ACL-Warn: Too high rate of unknown addresses received from you X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KObzE-0002Iy-9T. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1KObzE-0002Iy-9T ee51458f04af01c2a56af6efb1a9e229 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6? (barebone, rare!) X-CrossAssassin-Score: 2 Richard M Stallman wrote: > Using a notation that contains the actual label on keyboard's keys is > much easier to understand. A beginning computer user, can read the > ?Ctrl+?key?? notation and figure out which keys to press. > > There is some validity in that argument. > > For the Emacs Manual I have a feeling this would be very wasteful. > But maybe it would be ok for some of the help commands, maybe even for > all of them. Please put this on the TODO list. I think both the menus and the help command should reflect the actual keyboard labeling (for a standard keyboard on the used OS).
"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
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From: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:53:21 -0700
To: rms@HIDDEN
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> I think you mean "GNU/Linux".
Yes. GNU/Linux. Sorry i forgot i'm talking to you. LOL. (i do support =20=
GNU/Linux naming)
> Linux has no user interface and its
> documentation has no reason to refer to any specific keys.
In Gnome or KDE, when you pull menus, doesn't the shortcut shows =20
beside the menu command names?
I think I forgot to mention this. I think if this suggestion is to be =20=
adapted, changing the shortcut notation as they are displayed in =20
menus should be part of it. Perhaps even more important than the manual.
> Our convention for the GNU system is C-x and M-x, which is what you
> are proposing to change.
>
> Using a notation that contains the actual label on keyboard's =20
> keys is
> much easier to understand. A beginning computer user, can read the
> ?Ctrl+?key?? notation and figure out which keys to press.
>
> There is some validity in that argument.
>
> For the Emacs Manual I have a feeling this would be very wasteful.
> But maybe it would be ok for some of the help commands, maybe even for
> all of them.
Wasteful, as in too much effort and little benefit?
I think the effort would be few hours of interactive find/replace in =20
the emacs manual's info source. O, there's also emacs tutorial info =20
file. Possibly a few more.
the other part is to fix the elisp code so that menus display =20
shortcuts using the Alt+ ant Ctrl+ notations. I'm not sure how this =20
can be done or how much effort it takes.
I think the benefit would be great, because it gets rid of one big =20
learning curve perception that stops people from using emacs.
Xah
=E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/
=E2=98=84
-------------------
On Jul 30, 2008, at 6:59 PM, Richard M Stallman wrote:
The Alt+?key? or Ctrl+?key? notation is universal among
Windows and Linux.
I think you mean "GNU/Linux". Linux has no user interface and its
documentation has no reason to refer to any specific keys.
Our convention for the GNU system is C-x and M-x, which is what you
are proposing to change.
Using a notation that contains the actual label on keyboard's =20
keys is
much easier to understand. A beginning computer user, can read the
?Ctrl+?key?? notation and figure out which keys to press.
There is some validity in that argument.
For the Emacs Manual I have a feeling this would be very wasteful.
But maybe it would be ok for some of the help commands, maybe even for
all of them.
=E2=98=84
xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Richard M Stallman <rms@HIDDEN>
To: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>
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In-reply-to: <FAD16B45-9476-4589-A7BD-F8F4ACEB180A@HIDDEN> (message from
xah lee on Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:49:01 -0700)
Subject: Re: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion
Reply-to: rms@HIDDEN
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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:59:39 -0400
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The Alt+?key? or Ctrl+?key? notation is universal among
Windows and Linux.
I think you mean "GNU/Linux". Linux has no user interface and its
documentation has no reason to refer to any specific keys.
Our convention for the GNU system is C-x and M-x, which is what you
are proposing to change.
Using a notation that contains the actual label on keyboard's keys is
much easier to understand. A beginning computer user, can read the
?Ctrl+?key?? notation and figure out which keys to press.
There is some validity in that argument.
For the Emacs Manual I have a feeling this would be very wasteful.
But maybe it would be ok for some of the help commands, maybe even for
all of them.
rms@HIDDEN:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
Full text available.Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN>
to control@HIDDEN.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.7 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FOURLA, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=no version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 30 Jul 2008 08:50:42 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m6U8ob7K004373 for <submit@HIDDEN>; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:50:39 -0700 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KO7OH-0006PM-B7 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:50:37 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KO7OG-0006P2-3Q for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:50:36 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=41280 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KO7OF-0006Oy-UW for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:50:35 -0400 Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.195]:51591) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from <xah@HIDDEN>) id 1KO7OF-0006Tx-S4 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:50:36 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.4] (c-24-6-97-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.6.97.120]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKpCa-1KO7O30GsL-0004WT; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:50:24 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <FAD16B45-9476-4589-A7BD-F8F4ACEB180A@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: xah lee <xah@HIDDEN> Subject: the M- notation suggestion Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:49:01 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18tSw8JtgwcMscS6s7bPg0AvRf3bgY29okPo7m DlXBJPx3w1VbJdYmwsy8cihMGGO5zMy5weqeRYmbwvqZ/pYpqz DDrIEfvolsfKRT/fACz0g== X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6? (barebone, rare!) This is a suggestion on emacs's usability. Recently in discussion at gnu.emacs.help, the subject of Alt+=E2=80=B9key=E2= =80=BA =20 vs M-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA came up. I think emacs's M-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA notation is one of emacs's a = usability =20 problem, contributing to its often cited big leaning curve. Here's some detailed argument on why i think this should be chaged. =20 Many emacs old users probably don't agree, but i thought it's good to =20= send in one opinion anyhow. --------------------- Emacs's M-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA Notation vs Alt+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA = Notation Xah Lee, 2008-07 Here're some reason i think emacs should adopt the Alt+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA= and =20 Ctrl+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA notation throughout its documentation. (as = opposed to =20 emacs's M-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA and C-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA notation) UNIVERSALLY UNDERSTOOD The Alt+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA or Ctrl+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA notation is = universal among =20 Windows and Linux. They account for about 95% of computers used word =20 wide. Note that the word =E2=80=9CAlt=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CCtrl=E2=80=9D = are the exact labels =20 printed on the Keys of PC Keyboards. PC Keyboards has probably more =20 than 99% of market share. IDENTICAL TO KEY'S LABEL Using a notation that contains the actual label on keyboard's keys is =20= much easier to understand. A beginning computer user, can read the =20 =E2=80=9CCtrl+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D notation and figure out = which keys to press. =20 Emacs's notation of =E2=80=9CM-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9CC-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D requires a =20 learning step, even for experienced programers. Even though it is a =20 minor one, but learning steps add up the complexity. (Apple's computers, which account for about %4 marke share today, =20 also use a notation where the name or symbol appears on the labels of =20= Apple keyboard's keys exactly. (OSX's documentation uses the notaton =20 =E2=80=9CCommand-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9COption-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D. Application's =20 menus shows them as =E2=80=9C=E2=8C=98=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9C=E2=8C=A5=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D. Both =20 the word =E2=80=9CCommand=E2=80=9D and symbol =E2=80=9C=E2=8C=98=E2=80=9D = appear on the key's label, =20 same for =E2=80=9COption=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C=E2=8C=A5=E2=80=9D.) Meta Is Alt In Practice By default on all major OSes in use (Windows and Linux and OSX), =20 emacs maps its Meta to Alt key. So, practically speaking, the Meta =20 key is the Alt key. (Aquamacs, perhaps the most widely used emacs =20 distro on OSX, by default has Alt for Meta.) KEYBOARDS DON'T HAVE META KEY TODAY The Meta key was one of the modifier key on obsolete keyboards used =20 by lisp machines in the 1980s. (for photos and detail, see: Why =20 Emacs's Keyboard Shortcuts Are Painful) There is practically no keyboard today that has the Meta key. Sun =20 Microsystem's keyboard has a key labeled with a diamond =E2=80=9C=E2=97=86= =E2=80=9D. =20 Sun's official documentation refers to this key as Meta key. (e.g. =20 search http://docs.sun.com/ on =E2=80=9CMeta key=E2=80=9D.) Sun's = keyboards have a =20 market share perhaps less than 0.01%. For photos and more commentary on Sun's keyboard, see Computer =20 keyboards Gallery. MISC FACTS Historically, a =E2=80=9CMeta+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D shortcut in = emacs can also be =20 invoked by =E2=80=9CEsc =E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CCtrl+[ = =E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D. The design =20 was that way mostly because at the time, many terminals do not have =20 or support the Meta key, and Terminal is a primary application in =20 computer use in the 1980s. The other reason is that, in emacs's =20 implementation, the Meta+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA is simply a ASCII control = character =20 sequence. Today, perhaps all terminal=E2=86=97, console=E2=86=97, = Command line =20 interface=E2=86=97 apps support Meta as Alt either by default or in a =20= preference setting. The ability of pressing Esc for Meta might be still useful for some =20 people. Users who needed that feature could easily read about it in =20 emacs doc. (I myself used =E2=80=9CEsc =E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D = exclusively during =20 1998-2004, mostly because it was a one-brainless solution that works =20 on all telnet apps regardless of hardware, OS, or setup, and i =20 frequently need to use different machine, OS, or remote servers.) A argument from user interface perspective, is that multiple =20 insignificant choices or options are not good because it increases =20 complexity and causes the user to sidetrack their focus on tasks. KDE =20= and Gnome, solved this problem for linuxes by adopting wholesale =20 Microsoft Window's interface starting about 1998. (before KDE and =20 Gnome, GUI apps on unix use a variety of =E2=80=9CWindows Managers=E2=80=9D= that =20 has incompatible User Interfaces, each claiming superiority.) Note: Whether to use the =E2=80=9CM-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D or = =E2=80=9CAlt+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D =20 notation has little to do with =E2=80=9CEsc =E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA=E2=80=9D= feature. PS Note that Microsoft Windows used to use the Alt-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA = notation. =20 Only in recent years they changed the minus sign to plus sign. =20 Arguably, this is a good change because the plus sign better =20 indicates key combination. Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84 =E2=98=84
xah lee <xah@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#631; Package emacs.
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