GNU bug report logs - #6436
23.2; C-h C-h incomprehensible to new users

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab <at> web.de>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 23.2; C-h C-h incomprehensible to new users
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:18:51 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi, 

The integrated help in emacs is a great tool for beginners to learn emacs, and 
C-h d, C-h k, C-h m and C-h t are extremely useful. 

Sadly the sheer number of help options made it extremely hard for me in the 
beginning to find out what help I really needed. Most times is was simply C-h d 
or C-h k. 

So I’d suggest to seperate the help options into two parts: “needed often by 
most people” and “needed only in very specific situations”. 

Then just put the first at the beginning of the help output (common help 
options) and in a next paragraph add the rest (advanced help options). 

That should make it far easier for beginners to find the help topic they need 
(and I can safely tell people “if you need help, just type C-h C-h”). 

Best wishes, 
and many thanks for emacs!
— Arne


In GNU Emacs 23.2.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, Xaw3d scroll bars)
 of 2010-05-14 on fluss
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10706000
configured using `configure  '--prefix=/usr' '--build=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu' '--
host=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu' '--mandir=/usr/share/man' '--
infodir=/usr/share/info' '--datadir=/usr/share' '--sysconfdir=/etc' '--
localstatedir=/var/lib' '--libdir=/usr/lib64' '--program-suffix=-emacs-23' '--
infodir=/usr/share/info/emacs-23' '--with-crt-dir=/usr/lib64' '--with-sound' 
'--with-x' '--without-gconf' '--with-toolkit-scroll-bars' '--with-gif' '--
with-jpeg' '--with-png' '--with-rsvg' '--with-tiff' '--with-xpm' '--with-xft' 
'--with-libotf' '--with-m17n-flt' '--with-x-toolkit=athena' '--without-hesiod' 
'--without-kerberos' '--without-kerberos5' '--with-gpm' '--with-dbus' 
'build_alias=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu' 'host_alias=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu' 'CFLAGS=-
march=k8 -O2 -pipe' 'LDFLAGS=-Wl,-O1''

Important settings:
  value of $LC_ALL: nil
  value of $LC_COLLATE: C
  value of $LC_CTYPE: nil
  value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil
  value of $LC_MONETARY: nil
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil
  value of $LC_TIME: nil
  value of $LANG: de_DE.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: nil
  locale-coding-system: utf-8
  default enable-multibyte-characters: t

Major mode: Lisp Interaction

Minor modes in effect:
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  real-global-auto-complete-mode: t
  global-auto-complete-mode: t
  auto-complete-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  global-visual-line-mode: t
  visual-line-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Recent input:
C-c M-! h g SPC p u s <return> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> 
C-x 1 C-x # <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> M-x a <backspace> 
p a g e <tab> - m e <tab> <backspace> o <tab> <tab> 
C-g C-g <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> C-x C-f <backspace> 
a c <tab> <return> p a <backspace> <backspace> a c 
t i l <backspace> v a t i <backspace> e - p a g e - 
m o d e . e l <return> <return> M-x e s c <backspace> 
h e l l <return> c d SPC <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
C-x k <return> M-x <up> <return> c d SPC . . <return> 
c d SPC l i <tab> <return> g i t SPC c l o n e SPC 
<down-mouse-2> <mouse-2> <return> <up> <return> <up> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <down-mouse-2> 
<mouse-2> <return> <help-echo> <help-echo> <down-mouse-1> 
<mouse-1> C-x b <return> C-x b <return> C-d C-d C-d 
C-x k <return> C-x k <return> C-x b n a <return> C-x 
k <return> C-x k * w <return> C-x k O C-g C-g C-x # 
C-x C-c M-x r e p o <tab> <tab> r <tab> <tab> <tab> 
b <tab> <return> C - h SPC u n u s <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> i n w <backspace> c o m p e 
<left> <left> <left> <left> <left> <left> <left> h 
SPC <left> <left> C - <end> C-x o C-h C-h C-g C-x h 
C-h h C-r C-r g C-g C-g <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> C-x 
k <return> <backspace> M-x r e p o <tab> t <backspace> 
r <tab> b <tab> <return>

Recent messages:
Quit [2 times]
No server buffers remain to edit
(No files need saving)
When done with this frame, type C-x 5 0
Making completion list... [2 times]
Note: file is write protected
View mode: type C-h for help, h for commands, q to quit.
Quit [2 times]
byte-code: Command attempted to use minibuffer while in minibuffer
Making completion list...

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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-picon hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nnmbox hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/mml-sec hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nnmh hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nntp hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-util hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-registry hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nnsoup hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-art hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-salt hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nndb hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-cache hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/sieve-manage hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/sieve-manage
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-msg hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/gnus-msg
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nnvirtual hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-undo hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-async hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/html2text hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/html2text
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/rfc2231 hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/rfc2231
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nnkiboze hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/nnkiboze
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/starttls hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/starttls
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nnfolder hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-audio hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-cus hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nnoo hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/mm-bodies hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/deuglify hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-dup hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/mm-extern hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nndoc hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-topic hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-srvr hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/message hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/message
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/mm-util hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/mm-util
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-agent hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/compface hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/mml-smime hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/score-mode hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-score hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/gnus-score
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/yenc hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/yenc
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/utf7 hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/utf7
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/rfc2047 hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/rfc2047
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nnheader hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-bcklg hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/gnus-bcklg
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/flow-fill hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/flow-fill
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/mml1991 hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nndiary hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/nndiary
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/mailcap hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/mailcap
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nnbabyl hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-eform hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-demon hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nneething hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/sieve hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/sieve
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-win hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-range hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/gnus-range
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/smiley hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/smiley
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/spam-stat hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/spam-stat
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-start hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/gnus/gnus-start
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/canlock hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/nnspool hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/rfc2045 hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/mm-uu hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/gnus-draft hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/mm-encode hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/eieio/chart hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/eieio/eieio-custom hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/eieio/eieio-speedbar hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/eieio/eieio hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/emacs-lisp/eieio
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/eieio/eieio-base hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/eieio/eieio-comp hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/eieio/eieio-datadebug hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/eieio/eieio-opt hides 
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/common/cedet-files hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/cedet-files
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/common/mode-local hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/mode-local
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/ede/ede hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/ede
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/semantic/semantic hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/semantic
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/srecode/srecode hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/srecode
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/common/pulse hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/pulse
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/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/cedet
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/common/inversion hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/inversion
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/common/data-debug hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/data-debug
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/common/cedet-idutils hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/cedet-idutils
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/common/cedet-cscope hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/cedet-cscope
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/cedet/common/cedet-global hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/cedet/cedet-global
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/parse-time hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/calendar/parse-time
/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnus/time-date hides 
/usr/share/emacs/23.2/lisp/calendar/time-date

Features:
(shadow parse-time mail-extr message idna rfc822 mml mml-sec mml-smime
smime dig mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mailcap mail-parse rfc2231
rfc2047 rfc2045 qp ietf-drums mailabbrev nnheader mm-util mail-prsvr
mail-utils gmm-utils mailheader canlock thai-util thai-word lao-util
emacsbug rng-xsd xsd-regexp rng-cmpct rng-nxml rng-valid rng-loc
rng-uri rng-parse nxml-parse rng-match rng-dt rng-util rng-pttrn
nxml-ns nxml-uchnm nxml-mode nxml-outln nxml-rap nxml-util nxml-glyph
xmltok semantic-html sgml-mode tabify log-edit pcvs-util add-log
html2text rect tramp-imap tramp-gw tramp-fish tramp-smb tramp-cache
tramp-ftp tramp-cmds tramp auth-source gnus-util netrc time-date
password-cache format-spec tramp-compat trampver apropos sort
semantic-imenu semantic-sb semantic-edit pymacs wisent-python
semanticdb-mode semantic-decorate-include semanticdb-find
semanticdb-ref semantic-decorate-mode semantic-decorate pulse
wisent-python-wy semantic-wisent wisent imenu ipython shell
python-mode info-look sb-info info compile comint novice w3m-form
mule-util w3m-bookmark w3m-tabmenu w3m-session ffap w3m browse-url
doc-view dired image-mode w3m-hist w3m-fb w3m-ems w3m-ccl ccl
w3m-favicon w3m-image w3m-proc w3m-util eieio-opt help-mode view
vc-arch vc-mtn vc-git vc-bzr sha1 sha1-el hex-util vc-sccs vc-svn
vc-cvs vc-rcs vc vc-dispatcher pcmpl-unix ansi-color em-unix pcomplete
em-term term disp-table ehelp electric em-script em-prompt em-ls
em-hist em-pred em-glob em-dirs em-cmpl em-basic esh-opt em-banner
em-alias ring esh-var esh-io esh-cmd esh-ext esh-proc esh-arg eldoc
esh-groups eshell esh-module esh-mode esh-util sh-script executable
multi-isearch thingatpt vc-hg markdown-mode noutline outline server
semantic-el semantic-bovine bovine-debug semantic-debug ispell
activate-babenv goto-chg epa-file epa epg epg-config
activate-german-spelling activate-auto-complete easy-mmode
auto-complete-config auto-complete edmacro kmacro popup
activate-markdown ido activate-base jka-compr saveplace paren
cus-start cus-load site-gentoo planner-autoloads gnus-load w3m-load
org-install nxml-enc muse-autoloads cedet cedet-contrib-load
contrib-loaddefs cogre-load cogre-loaddefs speedbar-load
speedbar-loaddefs ede-load ede-loaddefs ede-speedbar ede-files ede
eieio-speedbar semantic-ia-sb semantic-analyze semantic-scope
semantic-analyze-fcn semantic-sort semanticdb-el semanticdb-search
semantic-find semanticdb semantic-ctxt semantic-format
semantic-util-modes semantic-util semantic semantic-lex semantic-tag
working fame speedbar sb-image ezimage dframe easymenu assoc
eieio-custom wid-edit ede-source eieio-base srecode-load srecode
srecode-loaddefs semantic-load semantic-fw semantic-loaddefs
mode-local find-func derived eieio-load eieio-loaddefs cedet-load
cedet-compat cedet-loaddefs eieio advice help-fns advice-preload
byte-opt bytecomp byte-compile cl cl-19 inversion bbdb-autoloads bbdb
regexp-opt timezone tex-site auto-loads tooltip ediff-hook vc-hooks
lisp-float-type mwheel x-win x-dnd font-setting tool-bar dnd fontset
image fringe lisp-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select
scroll-bar mldrag mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core
frame cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai
tai-viet lao korean japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech
european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook
jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev loaddefs button minibuffer faces
cus-face files text-properties overlay md5 base64 format env
code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote
make-network-process dbusbind font-render-setting x-toolkit x
multi-tty emacs)

--
Ich hab' nichts zu verbergen – hab ich gedacht: 

- http://draketo.de/licht/lieder/ich-hab-nichts-zu-verbergen

[signature.asc (application/pgp-signature, inline)]

Message #8 received at 6436 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab <at> web.de>
Cc: 6436 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#6436: 23.2; C-h C-h incomprehensible to new users
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:41:22 -0700

Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab <at> web.de> writes:

> The integrated help in emacs is a great tool for beginners to learn
> emacs, and C-h d, C-h k, C-h m and C-h t are extremely useful.
>
> Sadly the sheer number of help options made it extremely hard for me
> in the beginning to find out what help I really needed. Most times is
> was simply C-h d or C-h k.
>
> So I’d suggest to seperate the help options into two parts: “needed often by 
> most people” and “needed only in very specific situations”. 
>
> Then just put the first at the beginning of the help output (common help 
> options) and in a next paragraph add the rest (advanced help options). 
>
> That should make it far easier for beginners to find the help topic they need 
> (and I can safely tell people “if you need help, just type C-h C-h”). 

(I'm going through old bug reports that have unfortunately gotten no
attention yet.)

I think the difficult thing here would be to figure out what help
commands are needed often and which ones are more obscure.  For
instance, I use `C-h f' all the time, and I never use `C-h d', so I
think it just varies.

I don't think there's any really obscure ones until we get to the
`C-h C-' help stuff (like `C-h C-w'), and those are already deempathised
by being last.  So I think the current alphabetical organisation makes
the most sense in the long term, and I'm closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #15 received at 6436 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Marcin Borkowski <mbork <at> mbork.pl>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab <at> web.de>, 6436 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#6436: 23.2; C-h C-h incomprehensible to new users
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 06:10:26 +0200

On 2019-08-22, at 01:41, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> wrote:

> Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab <at> web.de> writes:
>
>> The integrated help in emacs is a great tool for beginners to learn
>> emacs, and C-h d, C-h k, C-h m and C-h t are extremely useful.
>>
>> Sadly the sheer number of help options made it extremely hard for me
>> in the beginning to find out what help I really needed. Most times is
>> was simply C-h d or C-h k.
>>
>> So I’d suggest to seperate the help options into two parts: “needed often by
>> most people” and “needed only in very specific situations”.
>>
>> Then just put the first at the beginning of the help output (common help
>> options) and in a next paragraph add the rest (advanced help options).
>>
>> That should make it far easier for beginners to find the help topic they need
>> (and I can safely tell people “if you need help, just type C-h C-h”).
>
> (I'm going through old bug reports that have unfortunately gotten no
> attention yet.)
>
> I think the difficult thing here would be to figure out what help
> commands are needed often and which ones are more obscure.  For
> instance, I use `C-h f' all the time, and I never use `C-h d', so I
> think it just varies.

FWIW, I've been using Emacs for about 20 years, and I just learned (or
maybe relearned) about C-h C-d.  OTOH, I've been using C-h k (but also
C-h f, C-h m, C-h w and some others) quite often for many, many years.

Best,

--
Marcin Borkowski
http://mbork.pl

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