Received: (at 66050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2023 09:19:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 25 05:19:03 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44188 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qkhk6-0008Ey-Di for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 05:19:03 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:50213) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <haj@HIDDEN>) id 1qkhjq-0008E8-Ce for 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 05:19:01 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9625240029 for <66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 11:18:27 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.de; s=2017; t=1695633507; bh=LPBiqyAjTXpocIpl+vRaXfHWbdira8ZtmACbPyHVr/8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=qJrldcb4ns5Lv6/DHlQ1hC5C4TXjm0/M8I1mcQ8VfHZ6cP/Gtmy9+878jkIzkBY5m bLAmyRz8CVhTF6RpnF6mnAZkeLAXD+WMhYzfaBLayFUNIN6TVQd/AJK4u8zEXsLcvV 7wLxXAfg49X1F8KKMk+E3nvaifDmanq6I2SdEBho0Y8MQyc32f4ofYOZSvHiJLxm6R kmIkZ7yEbUMQClhWQUP+Hs0UBNx5XbZDSN4oo0VTLQZQBL9WweU+rfXX30IxGiX0nv Wc9FTaDa63TMN7Xh8+c/X45IQ39Yoyeaba13JA76OSTV6worDmHvBYHUDVHtpWLiDJ 8v8LUTmnP5blw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RvHNf57gVz6tw5; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 11:18:26 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Harald_J=C3=B6rg?= <haj@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete In-Reply-To: <jwvcyy7b64o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 24 Sep 2023 18:12:49 -0400") References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> <87il88vjvd.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdkMoaDT4io=8e64_g88TxF-qk24Hz90rtzADAtE0WWQ@HIDDEN> <87fs3cv7mg.fsf@HIDDEN> <874jjka15f.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvo7hrbmnv.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87ttrjw997.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvcyy7b64o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 09:18:26 +0000 Message-ID: <87lecur4pp.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: >>>> Yes, that should be covered. The option name is somewhat ... weird, but >>>> I didn't find enough motivation to change it (or to fiddle with >>>> font-lock-level 3, which would be more in line with other modes). >>> That's a downvote for font-lock levels from me. >> Oh - I guessed that ignoring font-lock-levels was one of the things you >> meant when you wrote that cperl-mode is different than other major modes... > > Levels are just not the right concept, because there are many ways to > "measure" and hence order by levels. Oh, i see. And I agree. > [...] >> Sure. I think that creating custom themes might be a bit beyond what >> *users* of c?perl-mode might want to do (I myself never did that). > > I'm not talking about users creating a custom theme. I'm talking about > cperl-mode providing a custom theme that gets it closer to something > like `perl-mode`. Ah - I understand. Indeed, this looks like the way to go! > [...] >> An overhaul of all of this would take some time, and probably a thick >> skin to weather the storm caused by cperl-mode users who are >> accustomed to the current colors. > > I think you're overly pessimistic. A few tweaks here and there > shouldn't cause too much noise, if they make things more > regular/consistent. ...and also I have a thick skin, so this won't stop me :) >> It is a bit more than _changing_ faces. In the match part, cperl-mode >> highlights metacharacters (|) as keywords, [] as functions, and >> character classes (\d \D \s and friends) as types. > > I guess using `font-lock-function-name-face` for [] does sound quite > wrong, since it plays a very different role from "the place where an > identifier is defined as a function-like thingy", which is what this > face is typically used for elsewhere. Yes, that's not a "correct" use of `font-lock-function-name-face` - but it has been like this for ages. I think it makes sense to highlight *all* characters which aren't taken literally in the search pattern since this is a frequent source of beginner problems. > I'd recommend to highlight them as something like keywords as well. > [ BTW, ELisp mode uses `font-lock-regexp-grouping-construct` for some > of that. ] So this would be a general improvement for cperl-mode! > "Types" also sounds odd for \d and friends but the harm is probably > a bit more mild. I find it actually defendable. Within the realm of the regular expressions language, "digits" or "spaces" are sort of "types" (and there's no dedicated font-lock-regexp-* face for those). >> The substitution part can be actual Perl code, and cperl-mode will >> fontify it as Perl code. > > IIRC `perl-mode` also tries to fontify the replacement part as Perl code > (when it does contain Perl code). ... Oh - I couldn't see it with my example. Perhaps I miss a setting. > ... I can't remember if I managed to make it work for all the relevant > cases, but I haven't heard any complaint from `perl-mode` users when I > made this change, so if `cperl-mode` does it in more cases, I don't > think `perl-mode` users will complain when switching to `cperl-mode`. I agree. -- Cheers, haj
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 66050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2023 08:40:47 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 25 04:40:47 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44111 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qkh94-0007CW-SM for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 04:40:47 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:36353) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <haj@HIDDEN>) id 1qkh92-0007CI-B9 for 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 04:40:45 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54FEB24002A for <66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 10:40:26 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.de; s=2017; t=1695631226; bh=P9JPzPC+1pgn06o2SRUxzJwp8BHE8K/WJeczjPpTMII=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=bkff8EGocw0SJZr8HfgniOo7I6QjJKBgLy0x0dOE2KjU43w7epZC82LEpHa6q5t0b yNwUWl6rgQQ6h86kDVUmr61NwM4oT1MurbajLLHArMncPuK6gfY43lpHK/fG4r+o/e xuJwqLa848DLCcjKC33r5t+hNu1H5bsHb4Yo07Djjk/Y+S/TfBn3cGeYkig3THkSZd vH+skzhP1QeKg6bUb7cQT6okN8FoU84+hbCzv2sX1eAn572DN9D1I8lhrbkBCyEGSg NUgh8mhnTyO8Crs3B6vTYRRhUgM6Yl9DMDXwRP5tulei8Cx+aXgti8fbXnwHZhRRo3 oKHYY6OIkE2rQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RvGXm6p7mz6txT; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 10:40:24 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Harald_J=C3=B6rg?= <haj@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete In-Reply-To: <jwv7cofb3bn.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 24 Sep 2023 18:54:11 -0400") References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoT7rsB_eKufYG5KRG97x5LXwdhDHX_1GjbUJ9--3zt_4w@HIDDEN> <E1qj22E-0001RL-SB@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkOodWZ=w28wA3bS_2s4CE50E+oUj=tp925-1Tk=6fEyQ@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoSgjHCaeCQ0-ZgjU8JOiJmfLAvgKDxVN4GmbhvZfNnjNQ@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdOyesv8hxchkj=WXaDSqjKU2PRBVVaO8fn4J1VNp5Lw@HIDDEN> <4963b74f-7723-c473-afe3-2c3f84324217@HIDDEN> <87jzsfw6t8.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv7cofb3bn.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 08:40:24 +0000 Message-ID: <87pm26r6h3.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN>, 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda@HIDDEN>, rms@HIDDEN, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: >>> 1. If I have something like: >>> my $some_code = ""; >>> $some_code.= q( >>> my $counter = 0; >>> ); >>> >>> If I put point at column 0 of the line "my $counter", and hit TAB, I get >>> indentation in perl-mode. I don't in cperl-mode. I tried to look into >>> options for making this work but I couldn't find anything. >> >> I consider the behavior of perl-mode to be a bug. > > The behavior looks right to me, tho I haven't checked the code if it's > by accident (i.e. because of a bug in `perl-mode`) or not. I was wrong (as explained in my reply to Mauro). Sorry for the confusion! > [...] >> The message is technically correct, and generally I consider the ability >> of cperl-mode to locate syntax errors useful. But I understand that it >> can be annoying while you're typing (I myself don't see these messages >> because I use paredit-mode, but I understand that not everyone wants >> this electricity). I guess that a way to optionally suppress these >> messages can be found. > > I think the way we usually solve these tensions is to replace those > error messages with some kind of highlighting (and if necessary > `help-echo` properties to help the user figure out what this > highlighting is for). > > E.g. in ELisp mode, a non-terminated string results in a string-highlight > that bleeds into the subsequent code. And an argument wrongly placed on > the same line as something already indented within a subexpression as > in: > > (foo arg1 > (some sub > expression) badarg2) > > gets a `font-lock-warning-face` together with a `help-echo`. Thanks for this suggestion! This would be an improvement to cperl-mode in general. I didn't know about the help-echo property! -- Cheers, haj
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 66050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2023 08:33:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 25 04:33:26 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44100 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qkh1y-000718-48 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 04:33:26 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:50377) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <haj@HIDDEN>) id 1qkh1v-00070v-Bm for 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 04:33:25 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25001240106 for <66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 10:33:05 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.de; s=2017; t=1695630785; bh=2nka5rVILeG7ljGgkvcnEEj0rscfEa7efaCb/5OZ6BQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Transfer-Encoding:From; b=M7+09vGd6j6K9hKXfE+viaOO/BPhBv6A45TrOi31Pr2kSnMBOqDoOBIccg92v+lbs c1g3GfpYc5UI0LdTvnqgelmFZJn5ixOKBn2dBCa7PNZCclH+FLKV/ou3P82EOYby21 BvoZYGJdB5Zm1j5Zjzv6aS66Jwtb4vyPMf193Wjwdjtk/AEsYRVukd25tZz3eZ7XkU zHe8ZUd2TjSXK+gOX1sTNEiO21L9ldCEAsClZ6eDK2ETpBNai7cVJ7LBLDqVQATFIZ QoYRp/3pIgWDR2liLMmIeD5KMGEUqWVHyWGtes6j5GqqfMihXzn6Qb/z9V22fsPUo4 DAmNnbVBFaMJg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RvGNH48j3z9rxR; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 10:33:03 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Harald_J=C3=B6rg?= <haj@HIDDEN> To: Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete In-Reply-To: <9915f301-1808-8548-df5e-040e3c028714@HIDDEN> (Mauro Aranda's message of "Sun, 24 Sep 2023 19:40:10 -0300") References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoT7rsB_eKufYG5KRG97x5LXwdhDHX_1GjbUJ9--3zt_4w@HIDDEN> <E1qj22E-0001RL-SB@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkOodWZ=w28wA3bS_2s4CE50E+oUj=tp925-1Tk=6fEyQ@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoSgjHCaeCQ0-ZgjU8JOiJmfLAvgKDxVN4GmbhvZfNnjNQ@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdOyesv8hxchkj=WXaDSqjKU2PRBVVaO8fn4J1VNp5Lw@HIDDEN> <4963b74f-7723-c473-afe3-2c3f84324217@HIDDEN> <87jzsfw6t8.fsf@HIDDEN> <9915f301-1808-8548-df5e-040e3c028714@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 08:33:02 +0000 Message-ID: <87ttrir6td.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN>, 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, rms@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda@HIDDEN> writes: > On 24/9/23 19:21, Harald J=C3=B6rg wrote: >> Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda@HIDDEN> writes: >> >>> In addition to what Jens Schmidt said, I can add that: >>> >>> 1. If I have something like: >>> my $some_code =3D ""; >>> $some_code.=3D q( >>> my $counter =3D 0; >>> ); >>> >>> If I put point at column 0 of the line "my $counter", and hit TAB, I get >>> indentation in perl-mode. I don't in cperl-mode. I tried to look into >>> options for making this work but I couldn't find anything. >> >> I consider the behavior of perl-mode to be a bug. >> >> Whatever is within the parens of q(...) is a string, and will be >> assigned to the variable $some_code. By "indenting", perl-mode changes >> the value of $some_code by adding spaces. In my opinion, indenting >> should change the optical layout, but not the code! > > I might be completely wrong about this, but I have the feeling that > TAB behaves differently because in perl-mode I see TAB is bound to > indent-for-tab-command (this is not in emacs -Q, just in case it has > something to do with that). > > So, TAB is not really indenting (as I said originally, sorry), but > adding a TAB character upon request. And yes, in this case I want to > change the code, so TAB is not doing anything incorrect here, I think. I apologize! I made a mistake here: I am so addicted to cperl-tab-always-indent (t by default) that it didn't occur to me to even *try* to insert a tab character! And indeed, cperl-mode does not insert a tab character. Even if cperl-tab-always-indent is nil, it doesn't insert a character if point is in the left margin. This is documented in the docstring of cperl-indent-command. This behavior of cperl-mode is weird and it makes sense to find a way to make <tab> insert a tab character. (A workaround is <C-q> <tab>, but that isn't convincing) >>> 2. While I'm typing the above string, I get messages about string/RE not >>> found: >>> End of =E2=80=98q( ... )=E2=80=99 string/RE not found: (scan-error Unba= lanced >>> parentheses 1092 1874) >>> End of =E2=80=98q( ... )=E2=80=99 string/RE not found: (scan-error Unba= lanced >>> parentheses 1092 1918) [2 times] >>> End of =E2=80=98q( ... )=E2=80=99 string/RE not found: (scan-error Unba= lanced >>> parentheses 1092 1962) [2 times] >>> >>> That's annoying. >> >> The message is technically correct, and generally I consider the ability >> of cperl-mode to locate syntax errors useful. But I understand that it >> can be annoying while you're typing (I myself don't see these messages >> because I use paredit-mode, but I understand that not everyone wants >> this electricity). I guess that a way to optionally suppress these >> messages can be found. > > Sure is correct, but I'm used to see messages like those when I have > really screwed up (typically editing an elisp file and making > forward-sexp fail). Not while I'm typing. To me, it feels better to > have kind of a visual indication, like when you are entering a string > and everything fontifies as a string so you are reminded you better > close it. I agree. Stefan Monnier has suggested how this could be handled in his reply, and I think this would be an improvement to cperl-mode in general (independent of using it as a replacement for perl-mode). >>> So far, my settings for getting a perl-mode experience in cperl-mode, >>> with emacs -Q: (taken from a custom file): >>> '(cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately t) >>> '(cperl-indent-level 4) >>> '(cperl-indent-parens-as-block t) >>> '(cperl-invalid-face 'default) >> ,> >>> '(cperl-array-face ((t (:inherit cperl-hash-face)))) >>> '(cperl-hash-face ((t (:underline t :inherit >>> font-lock-variable-name-face)))) >>> '(cperl-nonoverridable-face ((t (:inherit default)))) >> >> Thanks for collecting this! > > You're welcome. I'm still trying to figure out if there are more > settings to tweak. Together with the settings that need to be added for > a smooth perl-mode -> cperl-mode transition, they could be placed in a > cperl-perl-mode-users-asylum-theme ;-) Yes, a custom theme seems to be the way to go. --=20 Cheers, haj
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Harald =?windows-1252?Q?J=F6rg?= <haj@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete
In-Reply-To: <87jzsfw6t8.fsf@HIDDEN> ("Harald =?windows-1252?Q?J?=
=?windows-1252?Q?=F6rg=22's?= message of
"Sun, 24 Sep 2023 22:21:55 +0000")
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Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 18:54:11 -0400
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Cc: Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN>, 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda@HIDDEN>, rms@HIDDEN,
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
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>> 1. If I have something like:
>> my $some_code =3D "";
>> $some_code.=3D q(
>> my $counter =3D 0;
>> );
>>
>> If I put point at column 0 of the line "my $counter", and hit TAB, I get
>> indentation in perl-mode. I don't in cperl-mode. I tried to look into
>> options for making this work but I couldn't find anything.
>
> I consider the behavior of perl-mode to be a bug.
The behavior looks right to me, tho I haven't checked the code if it's
by accident (i.e. because of a bug in `perl-mode`) or not.
> Whatever is within the parens of q(...) is a string, and will be
> assigned to the variable $some_code. By "indenting", perl-mode changes
> the value of $some_code by adding spaces. In my opinion, indenting
> should change the optical layout, but not the code!
Agreed in the sense that `indent-according-to-mode` (and
`indent-region`) should not touch this line.
But TAB should, using this part of `indent-line-function`:
indent-line-function is a variable defined in =E2=80=98indent.el=E2=80=
=99.
[...]
If it is called somewhere where it cannot auto-indent, the function
should return =E2=80=98noindent=E2=80=99 to signal that it didn=E2=80=
=99t.
[...]
> The message is technically correct, and generally I consider the ability
> of cperl-mode to locate syntax errors useful. But I understand that it
> can be annoying while you're typing (I myself don't see these messages
> because I use paredit-mode, but I understand that not everyone wants
> this electricity). I guess that a way to optionally suppress these
> messages can be found.
I think the way we usually solve these tensions is to replace those
error messages with some kind of highlighting (and if necessary
`help-echo` properties to help the user figure out what this
highlighting is for).
E.g. in ELisp mode, a non-terminated string results in a string-highlight
that bleeds into the subsequent code. And an argument wrongly placed on
the same line as something already indented within a subexpression as
in:
(foo arg1
(some sub
expression) badarg2)
gets a `font-lock-warning-face` together with a `help-echo`.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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If I have something like: >> my $some_code = ""; >> $some_code.= q( >> my $counter = 0; >> ); >> >> If I put point at column 0 of the line "my $counter", and hit TAB, I get >> indentation in perl-mode. I don't in cperl-mode. I tried to look into >> options for making this work but I couldn't find anything. > > I consider the behavior of perl-mode to be a bug. > > Whatever is within the parens of q(...) is a string, and will be > assigned to the variable $some_code. By "indenting", perl-mode changes > the value of $some_code by adding spaces. In my opinion, indenting > should change the optical layout, but not the code! I might be completely wrong about this, but I have the feeling that TAB behaves differently because in perl-mode I see TAB is bound to indent-for-tab-command (this is not in emacs -Q, just in case it has something to do with that). So, TAB is not really indenting (as I said originally, sorry), but adding a TAB character upon request. And yes, in this case I want to change the code, so TAB is not doing anything incorrect here, I think. >> 2. While I'm typing the above string, I get messages about string/RE not >> found: >> End of ‘q( ... )’ string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbalanced >> parentheses 1092 1874) >> End of ‘q( ... )’ string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbalanced >> parentheses 1092 1918) [2 times] >> End of ‘q( ... )’ string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbalanced >> parentheses 1092 1962) [2 times] >> >> That's annoying. > > The message is technically correct, and generally I consider the ability > of cperl-mode to locate syntax errors useful. But I understand that it > can be annoying while you're typing (I myself don't see these messages > because I use paredit-mode, but I understand that not everyone wants > this electricity). I guess that a way to optionally suppress these > messages can be found. Sure is correct, but I'm used to see messages like those when I have really screwed up (typically editing an elisp file and making forward-sexp fail). Not while I'm typing. To me, it feels better to have kind of a visual indication, like when you are entering a string and everything fontifies as a string so you are reminded you better close it. >> So far, my settings for getting a perl-mode experience in cperl-mode, >> with emacs -Q: (taken from a custom file): >> '(cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately t) >> '(cperl-indent-level 4) >> '(cperl-indent-parens-as-block t) >> '(cperl-invalid-face 'default) > ,> >> '(cperl-array-face ((t (:inherit cperl-hash-face)))) >> '(cperl-hash-face ((t (:underline t :inherit >> font-lock-variable-name-face)))) >> '(cperl-nonoverridable-face ((t (:inherit default)))) > > Thanks for collecting this! > You're welcome. I'm still trying to figure out if there are more settings to tweak. Together with the settings that need to be added for a smooth perl-mode -> cperl-mode transition, they could be placed in a cperl-perl-mode-users-asylum-theme ;-)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 66050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Sep 2023 22:22:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Sep 24 18:22:18 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43723 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qkXUX-0004b8-J9 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Sep 2023 18:22:17 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:53993) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <haj@HIDDEN>) id 1qkXUV-0004av-Jq for 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Sep 2023 18:22:16 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 909EA240101 for <66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 00:21:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4Rv0q81mbQz6tm4; Mon, 25 Sep 2023 00:21:56 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Harald_J=C3=B6rg?= <haj@HIDDEN> To: Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete In-Reply-To: <4963b74f-7723-c473-afe3-2c3f84324217@HIDDEN> (Mauro Aranda's message of "Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:13:51 -0300") References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoT7rsB_eKufYG5KRG97x5LXwdhDHX_1GjbUJ9--3zt_4w@HIDDEN> <E1qj22E-0001RL-SB@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkOodWZ=w28wA3bS_2s4CE50E+oUj=tp925-1Tk=6fEyQ@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoSgjHCaeCQ0-ZgjU8JOiJmfLAvgKDxVN4GmbhvZfNnjNQ@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdOyesv8hxchkj=WXaDSqjKU2PRBVVaO8fn4J1VNp5Lw@HIDDEN> <4963b74f-7723-c473-afe3-2c3f84324217@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 22:21:55 +0000 Message-ID: <87jzsfw6t8.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN>, 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, rms@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda@HIDDEN> writes: > In addition to what Jens Schmidt said, I can add that: > > 1. If I have something like: > my $some_code =3D ""; > $some_code.=3D q( > my $counter =3D 0; > ); > > If I put point at column 0 of the line "my $counter", and hit TAB, I get > indentation in perl-mode. I don't in cperl-mode. I tried to look into > options for making this work but I couldn't find anything. I consider the behavior of perl-mode to be a bug. Whatever is within the parens of q(...) is a string, and will be assigned to the variable $some_code. By "indenting", perl-mode changes the value of $some_code by adding spaces. In my opinion, indenting should change the optical layout, but not the code! > 2. While I'm typing the above string, I get messages about string/RE not > found: > End of =E2=80=98q( ... )=E2=80=99 string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbala= nced > parentheses 1092 1874) > End of =E2=80=98q( ... )=E2=80=99 string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbala= nced > parentheses 1092 1918) [2 times] > End of =E2=80=98q( ... )=E2=80=99 string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbala= nced > parentheses 1092 1962) [2 times] > > That's annoying. The message is technically correct, and generally I consider the ability of cperl-mode to locate syntax errors useful. But I understand that it can be annoying while you're typing (I myself don't see these messages because I use paredit-mode, but I understand that not everyone wants this electricity). I guess that a way to optionally suppress these messages can be found. The frequency of this error message exploded with the introduction of jit-lock-mode - before that cperl-mode didn't scan the code for every character you type. I think that backing out of jit-lock-mode would not be wise. > So far, my settings for getting a perl-mode experience in cperl-mode, > with emacs -Q: (taken from a custom file): > '(cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately t) > '(cperl-indent-level 4) > '(cperl-indent-parens-as-block t) > '(cperl-invalid-face 'default) ,> > '(cperl-array-face ((t (:inherit cperl-hash-face)))) > '(cperl-hash-face ((t (:underline t :inherit > font-lock-variable-name-face)))) > '(cperl-nonoverridable-face ((t (:inherit default)))) Thanks for collecting this! --=20 Cheers, haj
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Harald =?windows-1252?Q?J=F6rg?= <haj@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete
In-Reply-To: <87ttrjw997.fsf@HIDDEN> ("Harald =?windows-1252?Q?J?=
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>>> Yes, that should be covered. The option name is somewhat ... weird, but
>>> I didn't find enough motivation to change it (or to fiddle with
>>> font-lock-level 3, which would be more in line with other modes).
>> That's a downvote for font-lock levels from me.
> Oh - I guessed that ignoring font-lock-levels was one of the things you
> meant when you wrote that cperl-mode is different than other major modes...
Levels are just not the right concept, because there are many ways to
"measure" and hence order by levels.
E.g. Most of the time, "level" is associated with the amount of effort
to figure out where to highlight, which is related to how much
understanding of the language is needed. So it ends up providing
"lexical-level" information only at the lowest level and then as you
move up the level it gets more fancy and start accounting for grammar
and then static semantics (e.g. whether an identifier is a reference to
a local or global var).
Personally I want very little highlighting, but I'm usually more
interested in the "higher-level" highlighting, so I end up having to
choose the highest-level and then configuring most faces to be
indistinguishable from `default` :-(
> Sure. I think that creating custom themes might be a bit beyond what
> *users* of c?perl-mode might want to do (I myself never did that).
I'm not talking about users creating a custom theme. I'm talking about
cperl-mode providing a custom theme that gets it closer to something
like `perl-mode`.
> Emacs comes with themes which look better than anything I could create -
A cutom theme is nothing more than a set of Custom settings (vars and
faces), and users can enable *several* themes at the same time. So we
can provide a `perl-mode` theme which just changes `cperl-mode` to look
and behave somewhat like `perl-mode` and that doesn't prevent users from
*also* using `modus-vivendi` or whichever "global color theme" they like.
A "custom theme" is like a minor mode, except that it's more declarative
so it better interacts with other user settings (or other themes which
may partly overlap).
> An overhaul of all of this would take some time, and probably a thick
> skin to weather the storm caused by cperl-mode users who are
> accustomed to the current colors.
I think you're overly pessimistic. A few tweaks here and there
shouldn't cause too much noise, if they make things more
regular/consistent.
> It is a bit more than _changing_ faces. In the match part, cperl-mode
> highlights metacharacters (|) as keywords, [] as functions, and
> character classes (\d \D \s and friends) as types.
I guess using `font-lock-function-name-face` for [] does sound quite
wrong, since it plays a very different role from "the place where an
identifier is defined as a function-like thingy", which is what this
face is typically used for elsewhere.
I'd recommend to highlight them as something like keywords as well.
[ BTW, ELisp mode uses `font-lock-regexp-grouping-construct` for some
of that. ]
"Types" also sounds odd for \d and friends but the harm is probably
a bit more mild.
> The substitution part can be actual Perl code, and cperl-mode will
> fontify it as Perl code.
IIRC `perl-mode` also tries to fontify the replacement part as Perl code
(when it does contain Perl code). I can't remember if I managed to make
it work for all the relevant cases, but I haven't heard any complaint
from `perl-mode` users when I made this change, so if `cperl-mode` does
it in more cases, I don't think `perl-mode` users will complain when
switching to `cperl-mode`.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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From: =?utf-8?Q?Harald_J=C3=B6rg?= <haj@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete
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Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:
>> It would need more work. An important step is to identify the features
>> we should be able to switch off per customization. I am somewhat
>> reluctant to add more options to cperl-mode if they can't be bundled
>> (like `cperl-hairy' does): The possible combinations of options are a
>> nightmare to document, to test, and also to learn for new users.
>
> BTW, "bundling" is what Custom themes are for.
> At least to solve the "learn for new users" side of the problem.
> Not to say we should add more options (or more fine-grained options),
> but it can be helpful to simplify the code (a.g. avoid having to test both
> `cperl-dont-be-hairy` and `cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately`).
Agreed.
cperl-mode has many customization options I've never tried (nor fully
understood). These days, "Perl Best Practices" (the book, almost 20
years old by now) and perltidy (the tool) could be taken as guidelines
for new users. Unfortunately, Perl has lots of very knowledgeable old
users, some of which are rather religious in their opinions - and
perltidy lets all of them have it their way.
I *guess* that for new users a manual or tutorial would be helpful, but
don't know whether I can spend the time to write it (nor whether I'm the
right person to do it).
>> Yes, that should be covered. The option name is somewhat ... weird, but
>> I didn't find enough motivation to change it (or to fiddle with
>> font-lock-level 3, which would be more in line with other modes).
>
> That's a downvote for font-lock levels from me.
Oh - I guessed that ignoring font-lock-levels was one of the things you
meant when you wrote that cperl-mode is different than other major modes...
>> This seems doable. The easy way is to make cperl-hash-face and
>> cperl-array-face customizable so that they can be "downgraded" to
>> font-lock-variable-name-face.
>
> They're faces, so they are already customizable, e.g. via Custom themes.
Sure. I think that creating custom themes might be a bit beyond what
*users* of c?perl-mode might want to do (I myself never did that).
Emacs comes with themes which look better than anything I could create -
and adding four extra faces which fit these palettes needs experience I
don't have.
>>> 3. Variable sigils ("$", "%", "@") should not be highlighted at all.
>> I doubt that this is worth the effort in cperl-mode... and guess it
>> should be tolerable. The sigil *is* part of the variable, after all.
>
> FWIW, I agree. We don't have to satisfy all the wishlist items of
> previous `perl-mode` users.
>>> 4. Builtins ("shift", "ref", "defined") should not be highlighted at
>>> all.
>> This is an area where cperl-mode is a bit untidy. It has two different
>> faces for builtins, depending on whether they can be overridden by user
>> functions with the same name. Many occur in two lists for
>> fontification, only the first one ever applies. This has *some*
>> justification because builtins allow sloppy syntax (omitting
>> parentheses).
>
> What part of this is "untidy" or "a mess"? I can see why you'd say it
> w.r.t Perl having those fine distinctions, but the corresponding
> features in `cperl-mode` seem to just reflect Perl's syntax&semantics.
> Or is it the implementation part to distinguish those two kinds of
> builtins messy?
It is the implementation.
There's some overlap in the "regex-opt" lists of keywords
(e.g. "require", "for"). Some of the "builtin functions" are actually binary
operands ("eq" and friends). "use" is fontified as a keyword, but "no"
(which is sort of "do not use") is fontified as a non-overridable
function. The builtins use font-lock-type-face, which isn't
appropriate. "shift" is fontified as non-overridable, but it can be
overridden in recent Perl versions.
An overhaul of all of this would take some time, and probably a thick
skin to weather the storm caused by cperl-mode users who are accustomed
to the current colors.
>> When we clean up this mess, adding a way to not
>> highlighting them at all should not be too difficult.
>
> AFAIK that can also be solved by changing the faces' appearance, hence
> without changing the code.
Agreed.
>>> 5. Package names should be highlighted as font-lock-constant-face rather
>>> than font-lock-function-face.
>>
>> perl-mode uses font-lock-function-name-face in the package declaration
>> but font-lock-constant-face in 'use' statements. I can't say whether
>> that is intentional.
>>
>> Someone once suggested to use font-lock-type-face (because packages
>> usually are classes, and classes are sort-of types). This is one of the
>> cases where I doubt that adding more options will actually improve
>> things.
>
> I think it's more important here to choose a "meaningful/consistent"
> behavior than to reproduce what was done historically in `perl-mode` or
> `cperl-mode`.
Agreed!
>>> 7. Regexps should be highlighted as font-lock-string-face.
>> This can be added as an option with some effort. Regexps aren't
>> strings, but alas, almost no syntax highlighter takes the same effort as
>> cperl-mode to display them.
>
> Here again, I believe it's a small matter of changing faces.
It is a bit more than _changing_ faces. In the match part, cperl-mode
highlights metacharacters (|) as keywords, [] as functions, and
character classes (\d \D \s and friends) as types. The substitution
part can be actual Perl code, and cperl-mode will fontify it as Perl
code.
For example, the following substitution is rather colorful in cperl-mode
but (sorry) dull in perl-mode:
s/\d+|[IVXLCDM]+(\D)/sqrt(2) . "_$1_"/eri;
Making these highlightings optional would, as far as I know, require to
define an extra set of faces, which could then be mapped either to their
cperl-mode values (cperl-mode style) or all to font-lock-string-face
(perl-mode style).
--
Cheers,
haj
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete
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> Does anyone object to or see any problems with the above?
You can put two votes under "Stefan".
The first
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete
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Cc: 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu@HIDDEN>,
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
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> It would need more work. An important step is to identify the features
> we should be able to switch off per customization. I am somewhat
> reluctant to add more options to cperl-mode if they can't be bundled
> (like `cperl-hairy' does): The possible combinations of options are a
> nightmare to document, to test, and also to learn for new users.
BTW, "bundling" is what Custom themes are for.
At least to solve the "learn for new users" side of the problem.
Not to say we should add more options (or more fine-grained options),
but it can be helpful to simplify the code (a.g. avoid having to test both
`cperl-dont-be-hairy` and `cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately`).
> Yes, that should be covered. The option name is somewhat ... weird, but
> I didn't find enough motivation to change it (or to fiddle with
> font-lock-level 3, which would be more in line with other modes).
That's a downvote for font-lock levels from me.
> This seems doable. The easy way is to make cperl-hash-face and
> cperl-array-face customizable so that they can be "downgraded" to
> font-lock-variable-name-face.
They're faces, so they are already customizable, e.g. via Custom themes.
>> 3. Variable sigils ("$", "%", "@") should not be highlighted at all.
> I doubt that this is worth the effort in cperl-mode... and guess it
> should be tolerable. The sigil *is* part of the variable, after all.
FWIW, I agree. We don't have to satisfy all the wishlist items of
previous `perl-mode` users.
>> 4. Builtins ("shift", "ref", "defined") should not be highlighted at
>> all.
> This is an area where cperl-mode is a bit untidy. It has two different
> faces for builtins, depending on whether they can be overridden by user
> functions with the same name. Many occur in two lists for
> fontification, only the first one ever applies. This has *some*
> justification because builtins allow sloppy syntax (omitting
> parentheses).
What part of this is "untidy" or "a mess"? I can see why you'd say it
w.r.t Perl having those fine distinctions, but the corresponding
features in `cperl-mode` seem to just reflect Perl's syntax&semantics.
Or is it the implementation part to distinguish those two kinds of
builtins messy?
> When we clean up this mess, adding a way to not
> highlighting them at all should not be too difficult.
AFAIK that can also be solved by changing the faces' appearance, hence
without changing the code.
>> 5. Package names should be highlighted as font-lock-constant-face rather
>> than font-lock-function-face.
>
> perl-mode uses font-lock-function-name-face in the package declaration
> but font-lock-constant-face in 'use' statements. I can't say whether
> that is intentional.
>
> Someone once suggested to use font-lock-type-face (because packages
> usually are classes, and classes are sort-of types). This is one of the
> cases where I doubt that adding more options will actually improve
> things.
I think it's more important here to choose a "meaningful/consistent"
behavior than to reproduce what was done historically in `perl-mode` or
`cperl-mode`.
>> 7. Regexps should be highlighted as font-lock-string-face.
> This can be added as an option with some effort. Regexps aren't
> strings, but alas, almost no syntax highlighter takes the same effort as
> cperl-mode to display them.
Here again, I believe it's a small matter of changing faces.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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Second, we announce that people should report bugs against cperl-mode where they want it to be more like perl-mode, and that we are looking for interested volunteers to help work on implementing this. Third, we close all bugs against perl-mode as wontfix, and recommend the reporter to see if it is fixed by using cperl-mode instead. Fourth, if we don't have enough tangible progress in cperl-mode, we can unobsolete perl-mode.el on the Emacs 30 release branch, right after it is cut, while keeping it in obsolete/ on master. That would give us additional time to make sure cperl-mode.el is up to scratch. My idea here is to motivate people to work on cperl-mode, avoid unnecessary bikeshedding, and to take a firm stance on the direction we want to take as a project here. Does anyone object to or see any problems with the above?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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If the bugs include the word "perl" somewhere in Subject, tracking them for this purpose will not take much effort.
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Full text available.Received: (at 66050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Sep 2023 00:44:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 23 20:44:24 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40769 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qkDEW-0003AK-9o for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 20:44:24 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:35719) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <haj@HIDDEN>) id 1qkDER-0003A4-N9 for 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 20:44:22 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8096240101 for <66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 24 Sep 2023 02:44:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RtS1Y10mYz6tw8; Sun, 24 Sep 2023 02:44:01 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Harald_J=C3=B6rg?= <haj@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete In-Reply-To: <jwvil87fos2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 18 Sep 2023 12:14:28 -0400") References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> <jwvil87fos2.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 00:44:00 +0000 Message-ID: <87y1gw8kof.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: >> I don't think it makes sense for us to spend our meager resources >> maintaining two major modes for Perl. I would like to gauge what people >> think about obsoleting perl-mode.el. > > I think I sadly agree. > > I've been a supporter of `perl-mode` because when I had to edit Perl > files, I always found `cperl-mode` not to be to my taste (too different > from other Emacs major modes). ... Are there conventions or general expectations for major modes? I would love to make cperl-mode "less exotic", but Perl *is* a bit exotic, and the "Major Mode Conventions" seem to be more or less obeyed (they cover developer conventions, not user expectations). Both modes derive from prog-mode, and both have no built-in completion nor ElDoc support... but Perl language servers can add these to some extent. Another convention is documented in the "Levels of Font Lock", but neither of the Perl modes makes use of the three levels as recommended. > [...] > I think the best option is to obsolete `perl-mode` and to encourage > people to report bugs against `cperl-mode` when they find it doesn't > work as well as their beloved `perl-mode` :-) +1 -- Cheers, haj
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From: =?utf-8?Q?Harald_J=C3=B6rg?= <haj@HIDDEN>
To: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete
In-Reply-To: <87fs3cv7mg.fsf@HIDDEN> (Jens Schmidt's message of
"Sun, 17 Sep 2023 22:59:19 +0200")
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Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu@HIDDEN> writes:
> [...]
> Just to avoid misunderstandings: I have tried so far everything with
> `cperl-hairy' unchanged from default nil. I guess that non-nil makes
> cperl-mode even more electric, etc., which is actually the opposite
> direction of what I'm heading for.
Indeed. I always use `cperl-hairy' and am not really aware how
cperl-mode looks without it, but I know that it is still more colourful
than perl-mode.
>> Is it just a matter of setting some already existing options or is
>> "more work" needed?
>
> That's more a question for Harald, I think, since I'm not very well
> acquainted with cperl-mode.
It would need more work. An important step is to identify the features
we should be able to switch off per customization. I am somewhat
reluctant to add more options to cperl-mode if they can't be bundled
(like `cperl-hairy' does): The possible combinations of options are a
nightmare to document, to test, and also to learn for new users.
> I can state only what I have noticed this afternoon, after some very
> cursory comparison and review. Hoping this is the right place for such
> a wish list:
>
> 1. All scalar references should be hightlighted with
> font-lock-variable-name-face.
>
> Seems that `cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately' provides that.
Yes, that should be covered. The option name is somewhat ... weird, but
I didn't find enough motivation to change it (or to fiddle with
font-lock-level 3, which would be more in line with other modes).
> 2. Arrays and hashes should be highlighted just like scalars, in
> font-lock-variable-name-face.
This seems doable. The easy way is to make cperl-hash-face and
cperl-array-face customizable so that they can be "downgraded" to
font-lock-variable-name-face.
cperl-mode.el goes to great lengths to identify usage of array and hash
variables in situations where they don't look like arrays (for example,
$var is a scalar, but $#var belongs to an array), and this
distinction is helpful for Perl beginners (it was for me).
But I see that these two extra faces of cperl-mode are somewhat
nonstandard, and they don't play well with all of the Emacs themes (nor
can we expect the developers of themes to take these faces into
account).
> 3. Variable sigils ("$", "%", "@") should not be highlighted at all.
I doubt that this is worth the effort in cperl-mode... and guess it
should be tolerable. The sigil *is* part of the variable, after all.
> 4. Builtins ("shift", "ref", "defined") should not be highlighted at
> all.
This is an area where cperl-mode is a bit untidy. It has two different
faces for builtins, depending on whether they can be overridden by user
functions with the same name. Many occur in two lists for
fontification, only the first one ever applies. This has *some*
justification because builtins allow sloppy syntax (omitting
parentheses). When we clean up this mess, adding a way to not
highlighting them at all should not be too difficult.
> 5. Package names should be highlighted as font-lock-constant-face rather
> than font-lock-function-face.
perl-mode uses font-lock-function-name-face in the package declaration
but font-lock-constant-face in 'use' statements. I can't say whether
that is intentional.
Someone once suggested to use font-lock-type-face (because packages
usually are classes, and classes are sort-of types). This is one of the
cases where I doubt that adding more options will actually improve
things.
> 6. Unquoted hash keys before "=>" should not be highlighted at all.
They are highlighted as strings because the *are* strings. This is not
implemented in perl-mode, and it causes misinterpretations like in
Bug#45083: Not highlighting barewords but also preventing them to be
picked up by some other highlighting rule might be tricky.
> 7. Regexps should be highlighted as font-lock-string-face.
This can be added as an option with some effort. Regexps aren't
strings, but alas, almost no syntax highlighter takes the same effort as
cperl-mode to display them.
> When I switch on cperl-mode, there is little left which is *not*
> highlighted ...
>
> 8. Re-indentation of blocks should not merge else/elsif keywords with
> preceeding curlies.
>
> 9. Re-indenting a region should not adjust positions of after-code
> comments.
>
> Ah, cperl-style "PBP" covers 8. and 9. above!
You are welcome :)
> 10. Some parts of cperl-mode look, well, over-engineered. Function
> `cperl-find-pods-heres' is a stunning 1000+ lines long and obviously
> features regexps with more than 20 subres.
I agree that this function isn't a piece of beauty. It was written
before non-capturing groups were added to Emacs and never thoroughly
reengineered. This makes maintenance of that part difficult, but should
not affect users.
> BTW, on Image/ExifTool.pm as of version 12.16 I get errors in "emacs
> -Q" when switching on cperl-mode, I think because of that function.
It would be an interesting exercise to find out which options cause
this. I can reproduce it (it spits out an unjustified error message,
but apparently without any consequences). It does not happen with my
settings, and it does not happen if I explicitly call
cperl-fund-pods-heres with any settings.
> 11. Last not least, these pseudo-variables on the page labeled "Short
> extra-docs." always bug me. Packing arbitrary documentation in
> variables seems rather strange and rather non-standard.
Strange and non-standard for sure, but harmless.
> While that does not sound much:
>
> - I have the impression that, despite so many options in cperl-mode
> being available, just the right ones to "turn cperl-mode into
> perl-mode" are missing. But that could also be because I haven't
> found them yet ...
Correct, such an option does not exist.
> - There's probably more to it than that. Having some
> `like-perl-mode-sans-bugs' umbrella would be not only helpful to make
> this more easily customizable, but also to have something to "attach"
> future development to. Not sure how to express that better.
I am not sure I understand what this means. perl-mode does not
understand new syntax like the "class" feature - but that's not a bug,
it just has never been implemented. Should these things be treated
"like in cperl-mode" (because in cperl-mode they are implemented), left
as they are in perl-mode today, or would perl-mode users want to decide
how support should look like for new language features?
--
Cheers,
haj
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 66050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2023 22:14:04 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 23 18:14:03 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40713 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qkAt1-0007Lm-Fl for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 18:14:03 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:33447) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <haj@HIDDEN>) id 1qkAsz-0007L7-3C for 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 18:14:02 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9464240103 for <66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 24 Sep 2023 00:13:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RtNh61G2qz6tvb; Sun, 24 Sep 2023 00:13:41 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Harald_J=C3=B6rg?= <haj@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 17 Sep 2023 05:47:49 -0700") References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 22:13:41 +0000 Message-ID: <878r8wa67e.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes: > I don't think it makes sense for us to spend our meager resources > maintaining two major modes for Perl. I would like to gauge what people > think about obsoleting perl-mode.el. I'm not the right person to talk about obsoleting, since I have never used perl-mode.el. When I started using Emacs for Perl, usenet was still a thing. Ilya Zakharevich (the long-time maintainer of cperl-mode.el outside of Emacs) was active in the Perl newsgroups and very helpful, so I started with cperl-mode.el and never looked back. But I think that making cperl-mode.el acceptable for users of perl-mode.el is doable and might be worth the one-time effort. > [...] > Here are some additional observations: > > - cperl-mode.el sees more maintenance than perl-mode.el, in large part > thanks to the efforts of Harald J=C3=B6rg. I intend to continue maintaining cperl-mode.el, though I've been a bit distracted this year. > - The Perl community tends to favor cperl-mode over perl-mode. > perl-mode is seen as lacking in features compared to cperl-mode, and > no significant development has taken place to bridge the gap. The extra features of cperl-mode are also a source of criticism... and they come at a cost of some arcane elisp code. Yet, it should be easier to add options to switch *off* unwanted features in cperl-mode than to add them to perl-mode. So collecting such unwanted features, as suggested later in this thread, is a good start! > - cperl-mode.el used to be maintained outside of Emacs, but this is no > longer the case. All relevant development has been merged into and > takes place in emacs.git. In my opinion, this makes sense. Several Emacs developers have continually worked on cperl-mode.el to care for obsoletions or modernizations. I don't think a place outside of emacs.git could provide this. > - Perl, while historically important to hacker culture and still widely > used in some quarters (e.g. Debian), is seeing much less use today > than it used to. This will negatively affect the amount of help we > can expect with maintaining these modes from others. I guess that's true. Also, neither Perl mode systematically tracked the development of Perl for a decade or so, it will take some time to re-build confidence. > - Instead of maintaining perl-mode.el, I'd rather see that people worked > on a new perl-ts-mode.el. From a web search, more than one treesitter > grammar exist; I have no idea which one is the most promising or how > mature any of them are. https://github.com/tree-sitter-perl/tree-sitter-perl is very actively developed, also following the "actual" Perl grammar in Perl's perly.y source. I consider it promising. However, we've already identified a shortcoming of the tree-sitter approach regarding Perl: Many Perl extensions from CPAN _extend_ the syntax with new keywords and constructs. It is possible to accound for those extensions in Elisp, even dynamically on a per-buffer basis, but very difficult to do for tree-sitter grammars which need to be "built" from C-code and "installed" as dynamic libraries. --=20 Cheers, haj
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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> > I'd say: use `cperl-mode` and report regressions compared to what > `perl-mode` used to do via `M-x report-emacs-bug`. > OK, I'll do that. But Someone will have to keep track of the bug reports that need to be handled before calling perl-mode obsolete. >> 2. While I'm typing the above string, I get messages about string/RE not >> found: >> End of ‘q( ... )’ string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbalanced parentheses >> 1092 1874) >> End of ‘q( ... )’ string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbalanced parentheses >> 1092 1918) [2 times] >> End of ‘q( ... )’ string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbalanced parentheses >> 1092 1962) [2 times] >> >> That's annoying. > > Sounds like a bug, eh? I think so. I had some time to look into the archived bugs and found this: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=37127 I don't have time right now to read and understand the whole conversation, but I think it's related to what I see.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete
In-Reply-To: <4963b74f-7723-c473-afe3-2c3f84324217@HIDDEN> (Mauro Aranda's
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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 10:20:02 -0400
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Cc: haj@HIDDEN, Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN>, 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, rms@HIDDEN
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> What would be a good way of collecting this information?
I'd say: use `cperl-mode` and report regressions compared to what
`perl-mode` used to do via `M-x report-emacs-bug`.
> In addition to what Jens Schmidt said, I can add that:
>
> 1. If I have something like:
> my $some_code =3D "";
> $some_code.=3D q(
> my $counter =3D 0;
> );
>
> If I put point at column 0 of the line "my $counter", and hit TAB, I get
> indentation in perl-mode. I don't in cperl-mode. I tried to look into
> options for making this work but I couldn't find anything.
>
> 2. While I'm typing the above string, I get messages about string/RE not
> found:
> End of =E2=80=98q( ... )=E2=80=99 string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbala=
nced parentheses
> 1092 1874)
> End of =E2=80=98q( ... )=E2=80=99 string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbala=
nced parentheses
> 1092 1918) [2 times]
> End of =E2=80=98q( ... )=E2=80=99 string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbala=
nced parentheses
> 1092 1962) [2 times]
>
> That's annoying.
Sounds like a bug, eh?
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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Thu, 21 Sep 2023 07:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.234] ([152.168.142.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id fs16-20020a17090af29000b0026b4ca7f62csm1424993pjb.39.2023.09.21.07.13.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 21 Sep 2023 07:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4963b74f-7723-c473-afe3-2c3f84324217@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:13:51 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.15.1 Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN> References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoT7rsB_eKufYG5KRG97x5LXwdhDHX_1GjbUJ9--3zt_4w@HIDDEN> <E1qj22E-0001RL-SB@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkOodWZ=w28wA3bS_2s4CE50E+oUj=tp925-1Tk=6fEyQ@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoSgjHCaeCQ0-ZgjU8JOiJmfLAvgKDxVN4GmbhvZfNnjNQ@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdOyesv8hxchkj=WXaDSqjKU2PRBVVaO8fn4J1VNp5Lw@HIDDEN> Content-Language: en-US From: Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkdOyesv8hxchkj=WXaDSqjKU2PRBVVaO8fn4J1VNp5Lw@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: haj@HIDDEN, 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) > Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN> writes: > >> On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 6:26 PM Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> wrote: >>> >>> Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes: >>> >>>> If it is feasible to put conditionals in CPerl mode to make it behave >>>> like Perl mode -- or close enough that almost everyone is happy with >>>> it -- maybe then we could obsolete the current Perl mode. >>> >>> Agreed. Let's start with adding such options to cperl-mode. >> >> Does there already exist a list of cperl features/behaviors which >> perl-mode users find objectionable? > > I'm only aware of the list provided by Jens Schmidt upthread: > > https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=66050#16 What would be a good way of collecting this information? In addition to what Jens Schmidt said, I can add that: 1. If I have something like: my $some_code = ""; $some_code.= q( my $counter = 0; ); If I put point at column 0 of the line "my $counter", and hit TAB, I get indentation in perl-mode. I don't in cperl-mode. I tried to look into options for making this work but I couldn't find anything. 2. While I'm typing the above string, I get messages about string/RE not found: End of ‘q( ... )’ string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbalanced parentheses 1092 1874) End of ‘q( ... )’ string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbalanced parentheses 1092 1918) [2 times] End of ‘q( ... )’ string/RE not found: (scan-error Unbalanced parentheses 1092 1962) [2 times] That's annoying. So far, my settings for getting a perl-mode experience in cperl-mode, with emacs -Q: (taken from a custom file): '(cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately t) '(cperl-indent-level 4) '(cperl-indent-parens-as-block t) '(cperl-invalid-face 'default) '(cperl-array-face ((t (:inherit cperl-hash-face)))) '(cperl-hash-face ((t (:underline t :inherit font-lock-variable-name-face)))) '(cperl-nonoverridable-face ((t (:inherit default))))
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 66050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Sep 2023 00:38:16 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 20 20:38:16 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60667 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qj7hw-0003k6-HZ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 20:38:16 -0400 Received: from mail-ot1-f48.google.com ([209.85.210.48]:50602) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mplscorwin@HIDDEN>) id 1qj7hu-0003jt-2c for 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 20:38:14 -0400 Received: by mail-ot1-f48.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-6c46b7c04c0so285226a34.1 for <66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 17:38:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695256678; x=1695861478; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8qZP47Wm4poXi72DAnW1TmxrdHKfIbaGK6MsAeYZKk0=; b=atmGxedA26bmHVqPD0PccR5Xl08GyJ4MNOgbUKzwp55vyeKU68Wnwk/9RwkIpOQe7J BH47m9dPyllQYilQMAUPSCsl71dxlXzRqxfHin6t+ZQ7W9w0rtmbKCwqg5y7peooKn4E FaCaErK8grPZ/kbHroVcdYOihzOACOI9kkA2OP846M0QOMVaUZj39c9GuRbWSFFfnQx0 FkCwMFKChJ/mltbpJHvtaazGpYYwYssid9R3y1WrRr6ZRLHq4E1TKWQkcOiH/eH9rfIb XvAxVgOGFmaGm18tKRVjgMujdZ0eplPzG0T2CReZAmhwZP6yrcvjdU1eE/dCvzZBByYm K6KA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxJk2hTrVNroPMaoxwZpVkoMYRpljz7n/XU/+Y6WP2lEO7YG6SK TbFIGjuHSb2xJf1Sz7meAky8VUNAp8q7hoi4so8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGyv1efcELra29PAk4J+q7D4SXDj9mWaH7dgvw7Ea0XdJwfLqEHmWjYpSd+/iPWJbdse8wO5AydwEJf4YfnFjM= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7992:0:b0:6bd:701:6928 with SMTP id h18-20020a9d7992000000b006bd07016928mr3575957otm.3.1695256678343; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 17:37:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoT7rsB_eKufYG5KRG97x5LXwdhDHX_1GjbUJ9--3zt_4w@HIDDEN> <E1qj22E-0001RL-SB@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkOodWZ=w28wA3bS_2s4CE50E+oUj=tp925-1Tk=6fEyQ@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoSgjHCaeCQ0-ZgjU8JOiJmfLAvgKDxVN4GmbhvZfNnjNQ@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdOyesv8hxchkj=WXaDSqjKU2PRBVVaO8fn4J1VNp5Lw@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkdOyesv8hxchkj=WXaDSqjKU2PRBVVaO8fn4J1VNp5Lw@HIDDEN> From: Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 19:37:47 -0500 Message-ID: <CAJf-WoQ6BcGJ=TZNrSR=nEp4dV1ehSxPh1w=210gqpGz_1f4dA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, haj@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 7:16=E2=80=AFPM Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN= om> wrote: > > Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN> writes: > > > > Does there already exist a list of cperl features/behaviors which > > perl-mode users find objectionable? > > I'm only aware of the list provided by Jens Schmidt upthread: > > https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D66050#16 > I missed that message completely; thank you for calling my attention to it. I will see if there are any of these I'm able to suggest fixes for. I hope my saying so will not prevent other (more experienced) folk from working on this, if so inclined.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete
To: Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN>
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Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN> writes:
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 6:26=E2=80=AFPM Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail=
.com> wrote:
>>
>> Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes:
>>
>> > If it is feasible to put conditionals in CPerl mode to make it behave
>> > like Perl mode -- or close enough that almost everyone is happy with
>> > it -- maybe then we could obsolete the current Perl mode.
>>
>> Agreed. Let's start with adding such options to cperl-mode.
>
> Does there already exist a list of cperl features/behaviors which
> perl-mode users find objectionable?
I'm only aware of the list provided by Jens Schmidt upthread:
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D66050#16
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 66050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Sep 2023 00:09:14 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 20 20:09:14 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60642 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qj7Fp-0002zo-QJ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 20:09:14 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f45.google.com ([209.85.160.45]:45509) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mplscorwin@HIDDEN>) id 1qj7Fn-0002zX-TD for 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 20:09:12 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f45.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1dc619817a2so213802fac.3 for <66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 17:09:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695254936; x=1695859736; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=lQqT/HAORNg5ZPEgbBUyzFRcw+KG8Im+pwgL78AEn00=; b=sa5sfjtL+I3umuvRsrOW+2tXwEWWbz5KAARGDp2iT5mtWd+F9ufSuQ/45mjXCF5ohn 0n67ypr+Ehj2Jo6loUHMkySjTb6ycnB3a7C3YxfG7xeBoAFo6Pi8zERalewlpiOcVuHO 2SsZdAi79qCDTh894CTB+PVWBkeTHBJpMTeKOxQdZjRtJWXkgDXXNLurKw4cN/kIRFyi j2NsD+hmjW4JekshHJyV1LNllxEsM4qOkhiW7HoplA0UKdWtEmjG79kW/z1rSsGd2vyD FxsbALFdN/fk6uD3FTgQlRKVazOHJ0wqo/x7UMreesODsRR9Qf4nH5GKtNPjY6uOnTb+ ho2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwCGj4kOhOuL3QsaoJcdXBMJ1XcIG6wL5NpL01LkOH0ZoV2B1yX Lng3QCNSgBHCY2FULW6qCztFklxqDTp4yzatmXo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGI0hn/4PDo0MMSPk7OCG0vK1/Ca/mF3wn+s7Id+W606J98xKiWEJOz/HJ8al2GgdzY/FP7NXXXnqVUKLwXP/U= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:c207:b0:1bf:4a66:d54f with SMTP id z7-20020a056870c20700b001bf4a66d54fmr4013328oae.56.1695254936260; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 17:08:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoT7rsB_eKufYG5KRG97x5LXwdhDHX_1GjbUJ9--3zt_4w@HIDDEN> <E1qj22E-0001RL-SB@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkOodWZ=w28wA3bS_2s4CE50E+oUj=tp925-1Tk=6fEyQ@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkOodWZ=w28wA3bS_2s4CE50E+oUj=tp925-1Tk=6fEyQ@HIDDEN> From: Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 19:08:45 -0500 Message-ID: <CAJf-WoSgjHCaeCQ0-ZgjU8JOiJmfLAvgKDxVN4GmbhvZfNnjNQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, haj@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 6:26=E2=80=AFPM Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN= om> wrote: > > Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes: > > > If it is feasible to put conditionals in CPerl mode to make it behave > > like Perl mode -- or close enough that almost everyone is happy with > > it -- maybe then we could obsolete the current Perl mode. > > Agreed. Let's start with adding such options to cperl-mode. > Does there already exist a list of cperl features/behaviors which perl-mode users find objectionable?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 66050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Sep 2023 18:35:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 20 14:35:10 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60369 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qj22Y-0007mw-H5 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:35:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42362) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qj22U-0007mO-Mj for 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:35:09 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qj22F-0003Yd-4H; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:34:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=tvCt8RdpRWk34Hj5ItpoDaMhFoVcC7GP8PCW4ljplLk=; b=UrXCgwlj+ItW Jn1XQAVIpAlOuVM884ybYHs42WJfzOpTmE0P6HOHQit+Fs/xOt/43Y68vXIBopWOs/T+kTiDx193Q PaoLBmNq8lftPv1Pc7egis4RaJvyvwmhkge+5uuHIWj06yAr8HCSS10cft+wLQo4Aa2FS6KeWcQCI l2ZvoCTvzX2Hj4p4Ot7ZdiLOPQv9fcVYz8r9qu2RZEXD/U9+p4YSlxoM4xzztqPHs5DWuEiJTBrBh SQJKHEERnTumIABWKpjr/PEE+7/QjRYoEMVyC7boYHIoqHkk4u0MWSp3/Xjrne+lB0BWel8hjGrUr tUFZR7HksGtefhvWHWFMYA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qj22E-0001RL-SB; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:34:50 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAJf-WoT7rsB_eKufYG5KRG97x5LXwdhDHX_1GjbUJ9--3zt_4w@HIDDEN> (message from Corwin Brust on Mon, 18 Sep 2023 09:11:55 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> <CAJf-WoT7rsB_eKufYG5KRG97x5LXwdhDHX_1GjbUJ9--3zt_4w@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1qj22E-0001RL-SB@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:34:50 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, haj@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Many years ago, I thought it would be an improvement on general principles to have only one Perl mode. I do not know Perl so I have no opinion about either one. Of course, I first asked what Perl users thought of this. I found that many preferred CPerl mode and many preferred Perl mode. And the ones who preferred each one were very attached to it, and did not want to switch. That may have changed, or maybe not. I think we had better ask the users now what they feel. If there are still many users who strongly prefer Perl mode, even if they are only 10% as many as strongly prefer CPerl mode, we definitely should not mark Perl mode obsolete. If it is feasible to put conditionals in CPerl mode to make it behave like Perl mode -- or close enough that almost everyone is happy with it -- maybe then we could obsolete the current Perl mode. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN>
(Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 17 Sep 2023 05:47:49 -0700")
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> I don't think it makes sense for us to spend our meager resources
> maintaining two major modes for Perl. I would like to gauge what people
> think about obsoleting perl-mode.el.
I think I sadly agree.
I've been a supporter of `perl-mode` because when I had to edit Perl
files, I always found `cperl-mode` not to be to my taste (too different
from other Emacs major modes). So I've worked to improve `perl-mode`
based on my own needs, which were rather limited.
I considered improving `cperl-mode` instead, but found the code of
`perl-mode` easier to deal with (especially at the beginning, where
I found collaborating with Ilya was sometimes difficult).
Luckily I haven't needed to edit Perl files for the last several years.
I think the best option is to obsolete `perl-mode` and to encourage
people to report bugs against `cperl-mode` when they find it doesn't
work as well as their beloved `perl-mode` :-)
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 66050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2023 14:12:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 18 10:12:26 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53950 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qiEzB-00062N-Uz for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 10:12:26 -0400 Received: from mail-ot1-f51.google.com ([209.85.210.51]:60544) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mplscorwin@HIDDEN>) id 1qiEz7-00061w-FX for 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 10:12:25 -0400 Received: by mail-ot1-f51.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-6c0a3a2cc20so2913254a34.0 for <66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 07:12:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695046327; x=1695651127; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=k/gY9jeQDb/KqPegDHHaARtN+qjzLd6pyRq9Vejsuug=; b=DmUyyxl11bz5ClTO7Tp9NTOlgIBeTfxCDh7PoihVKCIlJSK+ViD9xhuHzndKAzSEzY FEeuTMzhC8BnDuxulbXEAH9YlBvY3m4RisexGPj7OcYWGJER+Bbn8KV9tKVFmWmZ9S6C NI+Vl7enLtvbtLmfSBx1e4gRyQicL9YY04CJ2mOki2p/jhRRS4mzxp7ipRM5JrQ7U+XR +k2FjGKFQHwQw/HNpYDG226gOK4bAfH64MeYxdrg2hW6xkZ3MB4j4j9BxquixgRre3UZ 0LSurpylx4rwiasL/Q0sgrjAps7fsHtinXxUEgMYWDbm4edyghMfRHLdLrTZuK50SQvE 8rEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxvpVISntqZJgqiIqNUS1RAHtokKDaTEHt1AxeWNSLKTJlEmV2o ov9SQzUvqxE+rD66GQl1J05jy9hwZLjokmV/4FQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEBBblx8phXfBRVRvujNIoIaYThlQmfeiGW//K1A8Y2pthTG2DBXCimmLREftM/ehlb6gmwRf1J3ao/qPK3wvs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1219:b0:6bd:bba9:2d6a with SMTP id r25-20020a056830121900b006bdbba92d6amr11433214otp.24.1695046327210; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 07:12:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> From: Corwin Brust <corwin@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 09:11:55 -0500 Message-ID: <CAJf-WoT7rsB_eKufYG5KRG97x5LXwdhDHX_1GjbUJ9--3zt_4w@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, =?UTF-8?B?SGFyYWxkIErDtnJn?= <haj@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On Sun, Sep 17, 2023 at 7:47=E2=80=AFAM Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN= om> wrote: > > Severity: wishist > > I don't think it makes sense for us to spend our meager resources > maintaining two major modes for Perl. I would like to gauge what people > think about obsoleting perl-mode.el. > +1 I've been aliasing perl-mode to cperl-mode for well over a decade. Every few years I try removing this but I haven't been very happy with "vanilla" perl-mode: it just isn't as pretty, and I press more keys to do the same things. (Probably not enough specificity here to be very helpful, alas.) Before I knew any elisp I'd memorized these lines use when creating a new .emacs file to Emacs on new system: (defalias 'perl-mode 'cperl-mode "Prefer cperl-mode.") (setq cperl-hairy t) (setq cperl-indent-level 2) (require 'cperl-mode) IMO, given I already need to (and, in fact, do) configure Emacs to turn on all the bells and whistles, it would make sense to add configuration to (probably by default) turn off whatever is needed to make cperl-mode less intrusive/off putting to those preferring perl-mode now. As a route to removing the need for two perl major modes in core, I think it makes more sense than trying to making perl-mode do what cperl-mode can while retaining it's more "bland" defaults: that seems futile. > > - Instead of maintaining perl-mode.el, I'd rather see that people worked > on a new perl-ts-mode.el. From a web search, more than one treesitter > grammar exist; I have no idea which one is the most promising or how > mature any of them are. > I believe this project from Paul Evans (author of Corrina, the new OO system added in Perl 5.38) is the better TS grammar for perl: https://github.com/tree-sitter-perl/tree-sitter-perl A fairly current DLL for Windows uses should usually be available from here= : https://corwin.bru.st/emacs-tree-sitter/
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete
References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN>
<87il88vjvd.fsf@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmkdkMoaDT4io=8e64_g88TxF-qk24Hz90rtzADAtE0WWQ@HIDDEN>
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 22:59:19 +0200
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkdkMoaDT4io=8e64_g88TxF-qk24Hz90rtzADAtE0WWQ@HIDDEN>
(Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 17 Sep 2023 11:20:28 -0700")
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Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes:
> Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> cperl-mode already has some big-config-sweep-knobs, like it seems
>> (`cperl-hairy'). It would certainly be nice to also have some
>> "make-things-work-like-in-perl-mode-but-sans-its-bugs" knob if it came
>> to obsoleting perl-mode. For me, the most important things to cover
>> here would be a nearly-identical look-and-feel for indentation and
>> syntax highlighting.
>
> Which features would be covered by `like-perl-mode-sans-bugs', that are
> not already covered by `cperl-hairy'?
Just to avoid misunderstandings: I have tried so far everything with
`cperl-hairy' unchanged from default nil. I guess that non-nil makes
cperl-mode even more electric, etc., which is actually the opposite
direction of what I'm heading for.
> Is it just a matter of setting some already existing options or is
> "more work" needed?
That's more a question for Harald, I think, since I'm not very well
acquainted with cperl-mode.
I can state only what I have noticed this afternoon, after some very
cursory comparison and review. Hoping this is the right place for such
a wish list:
1. All scalar references should be hightlighted with
font-lock-variable-name-face.
Seems that `cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately' provides that.
2. Arrays and hashes should be highlighted just like scalars, in
font-lock-variable-name-face.
3. Variable sigils ("$", "%", "@") should not be highlighted at all.
4. Builtins ("shift", "ref", "defined") should not be highlighted at
all.
5. Package names should be highlighted as font-lock-constant-face rather
than font-lock-function-face.
6. Unquoted hash keys before "=>" should not be highlighted at all.
7. Regexps should be highlighted as font-lock-string-face.
When I switch on cperl-mode, there is little left which is *not*
highlighted ...
8. Re-indentation of blocks should not merge else/elsif keywords with
preceeding curlies.
9. Re-indenting a region should not adjust positions of after-code
comments.
Ah, cperl-style "PBP" covers 8. and 9. above!
10. Some parts of cperl-mode look, well, over-engineered. Function
`cperl-find-pods-heres' is a stunning 1000+ lines long and obviously
features regexps with more than 20 subres.
BTW, on Image/ExifTool.pm as of version 12.16 I get errors in "emacs
-Q" when switching on cperl-mode, I think because of that function.
11. Last not least, these pseudo-variables on the page labeled "Short
extra-docs." always bug me. Packing arbitrary documentation in
variables seems rather strange and rather non-standard.
While that does not sound much:
- I have the impression that, despite so many options in cperl-mode
being available, just the right ones to "turn cperl-mode into
perl-mode" are missing. But that could also be because I haven't
found them yet ...
- There's probably more to it than that. Having some
`like-perl-mode-sans-bugs' umbrella would be not only helpful to make
this more easily customizable, but also to have something to "attach"
future development to. Not sure how to express that better.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 66050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2023 18:20:46 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Sep 17 14:20:46 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51410 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qhwNy-0007y2-Gf for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Sep 2023 14:20:46 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x12c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12c]:55340) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1qhwNv-0007xk-Eq for 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Sep 2023 14:20:45 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-502934c88b7so6234419e87.2 for <66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 17 Sep 2023 11:20:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1694974829; x=1695579629; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=76hFD8HwcCnHxW8sdJnG3rlRghlDWJipLxGBHXy8rJk=; b=hWH5Tyqmpn1Ds3EKGJyEB89s6jtlVCwn6OvtTLhT7ZO1GlOFmpP5aeEbt5oJuOU/OW bi6a8JKR/kA8a9VVblD2hzY4F1eQ5unXYWVcB84r45FEkC0rJKl1eHJcAs/UZfVGKIiP 3tPrRHdbTK+/NlovP4/wRRGvGlF/P3JsNwt3eSS4aX/T4yFDwd8/+f8Ita51MqDRMiel 9hZaJuqILdydnils4WBAwNK7NeyFoPe9HHUBRKEt+LnzltQSN7WEyPNs+G54eqeV6RLh UsEaRU1++5mZEQdA7th5mdrP980bWSgJnaWFKye51HEG+CgzHYCThQMZL+wY1fEFsL7O bzvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694974829; x=1695579629; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=76hFD8HwcCnHxW8sdJnG3rlRghlDWJipLxGBHXy8rJk=; b=dLwWoCIznvsnuub9Eh6Em+7UVREGH+euySegHIlfvBr1/N4tCuVhnZPNOSitAtOlLa SqhVkryTFuYqXcBQXLukXwwWmayBlI6lvsY89PckrgoXlZb4+FXRAKfUiqO54Lbcu9V0 rxUl56WkciX7lACp97jfZndGoL3GSeGAFZx4CkJYCNyL92MdjTv6KqsL1FKRqDd2aURC sQlx1P9FEUJTTGtRsg4Oc6CKA0GuRoMtYRrGNbaA4g+z67q/LA2sVd6KlWVwWl9ufJza lIMuuA6pvUeUzacGg9rpRgYFyTB/cUpOsCS5y8qwF+R3RaV9by48Qb9VQoDuzmhUJeyP dxjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy2+7v5aluUvU7TRKk/ztlfjbgshON6Il47XlNdpWGgrr+PyUtR lYroGsaik8DJDD0nViCCwYb2j+zS9SygYxeVci0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHp1q84urvRRUTPzeytTFjbJYlMqUd+QewKbSLaNiNaeXkSOM4O8ZxOF69kEtNHOhVPkE93TNj/VcVrgKInQTo= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8ed7:0:b0:2b9:d7b7:36d4 with SMTP id e23-20020a2e8ed7000000b002b9d7b736d4mr5718729ljl.16.1694974829270; Sun, 17 Sep 2023 11:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 17 Sep 2023 11:20:28 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87il88vjvd.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <CADwFkm=2QseuH91ZBP0tCiitHYy_cVjWJCm6KLDnib_+anSkDg@HIDDEN> <87il88vjvd.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 11:20:28 -0700 Message-ID: <CADwFkmkdkMoaDT4io=8e64_g88TxF-qk24Hz90rtzADAtE0WWQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#66050: Making perl-mode.el obsolete To: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66050 Cc: 66050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, =?UTF-8?B?SGFyYWxkIErDtnJn?= <haj@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu@HIDDEN> writes: > cperl-mode already has some big-config-sweep-knobs, like it seems > (`cperl-hairy'). It would certainly be nice to also have some > "make-things-work-like-in-perl-mode-but-sans-its-bugs" knob if it came > to obsoleting perl-mode. For me, the most important things to cover > here would be a nearly-identical look-and-feel for indentation and > syntax highlighting. Which features would be covered by `like-perl-mode-sans-bugs', that are not already covered by `cperl-hairy'? Is it just a matter of setting some already existing options or is "more work" needed? > One could even imagine to flip that knob automatically when `cperl-mode' > gets started as `perl-mode'. Maybe, but then again some users might want to continue using the original perl-mode even if it's obsolete.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#66050; Package emacs.
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Severity: wishist
I don't think it makes sense for us to spend our meager resources
maintaining two major modes for Perl. I would like to gauge what people
think about obsoleting perl-mode.el.
Harald J=C3=B6rg wrote previously on emacs-devel:
> Finally, perl-mode comes with its own list of ancient open bugs, many of
> those don't occur in cperl-mode. I wonder whether the authors of these
> bugs would accept "use cperl-mode instead" as a workaround?
>
> At some time, it might make sense to merge those two modes into one.
> Perl continues to evolve, and upgrading two modes to support that
> doesn't seem to be an economic use of time.
https://lists.gnu.org/r/emacs-devel/2020-10/msg01492.html
Here are some additional observations:
- cperl-mode.el sees more maintenance than perl-mode.el, in large part
thanks to the efforts of Harald J=C3=B6rg.
- The Perl community tends to favor cperl-mode over perl-mode.
perl-mode is seen as lacking in features compared to cperl-mode, and
no significant development has taken place to bridge the gap.
- cperl-mode.el used to be maintained outside of Emacs, but this is no
longer the case. All relevant development has been merged into and
takes place in emacs.git.
- Perl, while historically important to hacker culture and still widely
used in some quarters (e.g. Debian), is seeing much less use today
than it used to. This will negatively affect the amount of help we
can expect with maintaining these modes from others.
- Instead of maintaining perl-mode.el, I'd rather see that people worked
on a new perl-ts-mode.el. From a web search, more than one treesitter
grammar exist; I have no idea which one is the most promising or how
mature any of them are.
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>:haj@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Your message specified a Severity: in the pseudo-header, but the severity value wishist was not recognised. The default severity normal is being used instead. The recognised values are: critical, grave, serious, important, normal, minor, wishlist.
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