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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
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Sun, 19 Nov 2023 09:38:55 +0100 From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> To: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual In-Reply-To: <f44cca7f-13bb-a41a-c9ce-55f1b736c52b@HIDDEN> (Jim Porter's message of "Sat, 18 Nov 2023 21:30:11 -0800") References: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> <a5120e2f-b008-1b74-1ad9-3fe7d861b13c@HIDDEN> <E1qx8nq-0007DY-HV@HIDDEN> <3ade119d-0f0d-e60e-1bdc-9c7e02c1559c@HIDDEN> <E1r4YeF-0001fe-Ex@HIDDEN> <381836df-c16f-b3e7-d0c4-473290e165de@HIDDEN> <f44cca7f-13bb-a41a-c9ce-55f1b736c52b@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 09:38:54 +0100 Message-ID: <878r6ut9wh.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:uWEMuC+jODN6xmCCNm62YTFri9lGa87RFxls2iKwytFY4U2hPRl IL5eFS0OMB7pc8bto/9lN+cEIdwGa+dhSL0/x3v+b0O+STkYO1juHPuOykZ/25kRdQ9s0w1 Xjpkwm63xFtY9MvNfZIzQ4fFzl7YgIr7zE6Ep2N4kXcaMTd+Bc3wMXCkljG8DFrRZixE5h3 28/SRnCGeJ44SlOmbe9UQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:gukPw5BsXJQ=;w6T5vzV4QOl3dIDYxYOn7n0WMXa vkOo57PXnUP+oZIipaEp2GqLWl5Jpd/VZiFM8dqQ92zhg80FQ8NMXJDOHMOVeDuYzLhCjrUgG jpsptA+w4LoajeVQNcZVAvrN8Z1rRPUG+Z7XrILc8+5LrkbJMm1oH7kNw6NkqUBZXA/zNqSox PMekpCrqm7tNgjDkB4CCj/8L8yaDwgLf+GAI77U29kxDTOKMQ6lrCyafbyZkvVwt9Rl7zNI/n /66yDUlog5q/5wpT5Gk2mcVZeeHJ2i7YhOGuwp6jAl352n9O/fLu+u5X7tM86zuMStXX5SFYi jXWNcIpG81m3WnDmhnf+GmmpkCZ9uhS90ieASoaV0pRHAHnQq/2EVG2v9ZxFBaSmsPsK9LeUh KuV352LIcOR4tovEc64SzpFdubF/AfwiwpDK8XnLkDHcet/pKluPpCC1q9fzMs9dKuVWxxSYY RBz+IqURAgX9xM1vYR5UIZLvIy5ubm3PMlI8dkOqYOtVxAAYc79iVFI09a3NbqRqhmGWLDK/l 0ByT7K4SJlZrwm0lLOl1iXbEvTT0nhIog/bld6BxN+db2s1I6EpJfp/6Qs4Xm06wcAkGC9NXs ZwTWHHKc122SfwYJtXJNcxcVhT63LjaQrc5Qv2AAbDMdyT6j1UNdpDLMVeiUc5yHW2sHKGqOR SfFzPO7CZh4TIJhiydnVgqs1loCrzShTtKGJueMnllwBYfInuMUHZyWw1eNe6kuuyQDO08rAW zXyS+G7Zj2yFBbzSvRoZsoGhPWotfSmSZm65g0ceS0Sojo84Gepf9xnhyFqzq75xhd+fbnKxJ rtriE92IifcgS8kZBXGNRIfVouEdS9aM9Kxq8NBo12xbiw9QEQKhA+MiD6eRruDiO1zK+oWTu GNqfQc29YOeTR0dC3Vsu48LMSVErOXUrEVJ+yJSHNOtqBlb34YJxfli3kGrWIRuTR4j5522zI zlLrhg== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66756 Cc: eliz@HIDDEN, rms@HIDDEN, 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> writes: Hi Jim, > +In some cases, both lexical and dynamic binding behave identically. > +However, in other cases, they can change the meaning of your program. > +For example, under lexical binding, if you call a function inside of a > +@code{let} body, that function's body would be unable to ``see'' (or > +modify) the value of a local variable from the @code{let} expression: > + > +@example > +;;; -*- lexical-binding: t -*- > + > +(setq x 1) > + > +(defun getx () > + x) > + > +(let ((x 2)) > + (getx)) > + @result{} 1 > +@end example > + > +@noindent > +If we use dynamic binding instead, the behavior is different: > + > +@example > +;;; -*- lexical-binding: nil -*- > + > +(setq x 1) > + > +(defun getx () > + x) > + > +(let ((x 2)) > + (getx)) > + @result{} 2 > +@end example > + > +Now, the result of @samp{(getx)} is @samp{2}! That's because under > +dynamic binding, when @code{getx} looks for the value of @code{x}, it > +sees the value we set in our @code{let} expression. In other words, > +the call to @code{getx} happens during the @emph{time} when our > +@code{let} expression is active. Under lexical binding, @code{getx} > +doesn't see the value from our @code{let} expression. That's because > +it happens in a different @emph{place} than the @code{let} body. Would it be worth to emphasize, that a declaration of x changes this? That is, when a variable is declared, both lexical and dynamic binding behave identically. @example ;;; -*- lexical-binding: t -*- (devfar x 1) (defun getx () x) (let ((x 2)) (getx)) @result{} 2 @end example Best regards, Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
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[76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id d14-20020a17090a564e00b002851466f471sm1215739pji.31.2023.11.18.21.30.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 18 Nov 2023 21:30:12 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------u39TyNpGDhlethcqzINtvb0H" Message-ID: <f44cca7f-13bb-a41a-c9ce-55f1b736c52b@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2023 21:30:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual Content-Language: en-US From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> To: rms@HIDDEN References: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> <a5120e2f-b008-1b74-1ad9-3fe7d861b13c@HIDDEN> <E1qx8nq-0007DY-HV@HIDDEN> <3ade119d-0f0d-e60e-1bdc-9c7e02c1559c@HIDDEN> <E1r4YeF-0001fe-Ex@HIDDEN> <381836df-c16f-b3e7-d0c4-473290e165de@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <381836df-c16f-b3e7-d0c4-473290e165de@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66756 Cc: eliz@HIDDEN, 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------u39TyNpGDhlethcqzINtvb0H Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11/18/2023 9:25 PM, Jim Porter wrote: > I believe that's the goal, yes. I've added a note that the maintainers > eventually plan on making lexical binding the default. Oops, I forgot to finish rewording one sentence in my previous patch. 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
.
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[76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id p18-20020a63fe12000000b0058988954686sm3783753pgh.90.2023.11.18.21.25.42 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 18 Nov 2023 21:25:42 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------XQdsTGiwCBg1kuAdtZ080FQu" Message-ID: <381836df-c16f-b3e7-d0c4-473290e165de@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2023 21:25:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual Content-Language: en-US To: rms@HIDDEN References: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> <a5120e2f-b008-1b74-1ad9-3fe7d861b13c@HIDDEN> <E1qx8nq-0007DY-HV@HIDDEN> <3ade119d-0f0d-e60e-1bdc-9c7e02c1559c@HIDDEN> <E1r4YeF-0001fe-Ex@HIDDEN> From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <E1r4YeF-0001fe-Ex@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66756 Cc: eliz@HIDDEN, 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------XQdsTGiwCBg1kuAdtZ080FQu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11/18/2023 7:39 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > > +parts a ``scope''). For historical reasons, Emacs Lisp uses a form of > > +variable binding called ``dynamic binding'' by default. However, in > > +this manual, we discuss the preferred form of binding, called > > +``lexical binding'' (if you have programmed in other languages before, > > +you're likely already familiar with how lexical binding behaves). In > > +order to use lexical binding in a program, you should add this to the > > +first line of your Emacs Lisp file: > > + > > +@example > > +;;; -*- lexical-binding: t -*- > > +@end example > > + > > +For more information about this, @pxref{Selecting Lisp Dialect, , , > > +elisp, The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}. > > Do we want to change the default some day to lexical binding:? If so, > we should say so somewhere in this manual -- perhaps here, perhaps > elsewhere, I believe that's the goal, yes. I've added a note that the maintainers eventually plan on making lexical binding the default. > > +If we instead change @code{lexical-binding} to have a value of > > +@code{nil}, we will get a different result here. > > "Get a different result" is vague -- it would be clearer if it said > concretely what will happen. > > I suggest you show the dynamci situation in the same way you show the lexical > situation. That will help people compare the two. Done. I've also expanded the prose explanation at the end in order to re-emphasize the differences between the two. --------------XQdsTGiwCBg1kuAdtZ080FQu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="0001-Introduce-let-using-lexical-binding-in-the-Lisp-Intr.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename*0="0001-Introduce-let-using-lexical-binding-in-the-Lisp-Intr.pa"; filename*1="tch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSBmODA1ZWJmNjVkYzIxOGM3YWU2MzI1MWEzNTdhNGRlYWFmNDVkNzUyIE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBKaW0gUG9ydGVyIDxqcG9ydGVyYnVnc0BnbWFpbC5j b20+CkRhdGU6IFdlZCwgMjUgT2N0IDIwMjMgMjA6NDM6NTcgLTA3MDAKU3ViamVjdDogW1BB VENIXSBJbnRyb2R1Y2UgJ2xldCcgdXNpbmcgbGV4aWNhbCBiaW5kaW5nIGluIHRoZSBMaXNw CiBJbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24KCkJ1ZyM2Njc1Ni4KCiogZG9jL2xpc3BpbnRyby9lbWFjcy1saXNw LWludHJvLnRleGkgKFByZXZlbnQgY29uZnVzaW9uKTogUmV3b3JrIHRoZQpleHBsYW5hdGlv biB0byBkaXNjdXNzIGhvdyB0aGluZ3Mgd29yayB1bmRlciBsZXhpY2FsIGJpbmRpbmcuCihI 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
.
Full text available.Received: (at 66756) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Nov 2023 03:39:16 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 18 22:39:16 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49709 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1r4YeS-0006Nv-96 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 22:39:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45906) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1r4YeP-0006Ng-Np for 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 22:39:14 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1r4YeJ-00009g-4M; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 22:39:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=PuH/zNKQuONtt6o4IiolQrlIG2AsQSznZmnIALvR3Co=; b=oWiVr6lnUWkx raZLwbePaeJ4aSA4c+JxGj0sYuW5Lzd9SDIGwGikpNp3RDyLhNj2ihPBncMkOROCuM50MypS3CfsJ ExmmZG1whWkUKSD693UQFnf+5ZrK9YoKfJqYi+bab/DbyNWVcYLEwVLL3u2rJO8dtZSo7fjVO5EDx HlH165bslJlyqx3qEh8vh9DFi4hD7pg78l6yCJlRn6htCDpLk5o6/2BDNmY+RAjRMx3cCTaLXkWL8 Vt4hx6hO4DNEWNDT8NSbMl71oC0WUP1n020UVkSNrXyQQokOa1gPcllHaS2N0JfGcY+pTZ++vDbzy +hi2LLcQD3XInGp8fcc97A==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1r4YeF-0001fe-Ex; Sat, 18 Nov 2023 22:39:04 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <3ade119d-0f0d-e60e-1bdc-9c7e02c1559c@HIDDEN> (message from Jim Porter on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:09:20 -0800) Subject: Re: bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual References: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> <a5120e2f-b008-1b74-1ad9-3fe7d861b13c@HIDDEN> <E1qx8nq-0007DY-HV@HIDDEN> <3ade119d-0f0d-e60e-1bdc-9c7e02c1559c@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1r4YeF-0001fe-Ex@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2023 22:39:03 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66756 Cc: eliz@HIDDEN, 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I think your changes are good. > +parts a ``scope''). For historical reasons, Emacs Lisp uses a form of > +variable binding called ``dynamic binding'' by default. However, in > +this manual, we discuss the preferred form of binding, called > +``lexical binding'' (if you have programmed in other languages before, > +you're likely already familiar with how lexical binding behaves). In > +order to use lexical binding in a program, you should add this to the > +first line of your Emacs Lisp file: > + > +@example > +;;; -*- lexical-binding: t -*- > +@end example > + > +For more information about this, @pxref{Selecting Lisp Dialect, , , > +elisp, The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}. Do we want to change the default some day to lexical binding:? If so, we should say so somewhere in this manual -- perhaps here, perhaps elsewhere, > +If we instead change @code{lexical-binding} to have a value of > +@code{nil}, we will get a different result here. "Get a different result" is vague -- it would be clearer if it said concretely what will happen. I suggest you show the dynamci situation in the same way you show the lexical situation. That will help people compare the two. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
.
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[76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 23-20020a17090a19d700b002805740d668sm4214736pjj.4.2023.11.17.18.09.20 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:09:21 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------c0q4k8B0P0JpPPo3JFZoCO0V" Message-ID: <3ade119d-0f0d-e60e-1bdc-9c7e02c1559c@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:09:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual Content-Language: en-US To: rms@HIDDEN References: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> <a5120e2f-b008-1b74-1ad9-3fe7d861b13c@HIDDEN> <E1qx8nq-0007DY-HV@HIDDEN> From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <E1qx8nq-0007DY-HV@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66756 Cc: eliz@HIDDEN, 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------c0q4k8B0P0JpPPo3JFZoCO0V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/29/2023 9:38 AM, Richard Stallman wrote: > So perhaps it is possible for the first few sections to use examples > which work the same in lexical mode and dynamic mode, THEN show an > example for which it does make a difference as a way to explain the > two modes. It took a bit longer for me to get back to this than I had hoped, but here's an updated patch. I've added a new subsection to the end that describes lexical vs dynamic binding, and tried to keep the "let Prevents Confusion" section as similar in spirit as I could to the original, while still updating the parts that change under lexical binding. --------------c0q4k8B0P0JpPPo3JFZoCO0V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="0001-Introduce-let-using-lexical-binding-in-the-Lisp-Intr.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename*0="0001-Introduce-let-using-lexical-binding-in-the-Lisp-Intr.pa"; filename*1="tch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSBjOTcyYjBmYmY1MmViMzNlY2ViMmI2NTQ3YmU0MThlNmU2NGJjMWY3IE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBKaW0gUG9ydGVyIDxqcG9ydGVyYnVnc0BnbWFpbC5j b20+CkRhdGU6IFdlZCwgMjUgT2N0IDIwMjMgMjA6NDM6NTcgLTA3MDAKU3ViamVjdDogW1BB VENIXSBJbnRyb2R1Y2UgJ2xldCcgdXNpbmcgbGV4aWNhbCBiaW5kaW5nIGluIHRoZSBMaXNw CiBJbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24KCkJ1ZyM2Njc1Ni4KCiogZG9jL2xpc3BpbnRyby9lbWFjcy1saXNw LWludHJvLnRleGkgKFByZXZlbnQgY29uZnVzaW9uKTogUmV3b3JrIHRoZQpleHBsYW5hdGlv 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
.
Full text available.Received: (at 66756) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Nov 2023 02:30:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Nov 05 21:30:15 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38470 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qzpNW-0006FT-SB for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:30:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43846) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qzpNV-0006F8-8V for 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:30:13 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qzpMo-0007lS-Si; Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:29:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=QGmjkkHOijNZoYFM3F16Qowkk2bO45U0D797pXddglY=; b=qwdwDsJwfNCg 7bRgnfCSbZb0oApuoQ9IVTb6wnEUQrIJUn5/fbNhIAC/IroQHne3L4nIKegCnu0ttFT9o/T4APM/U iPtS2FjKQirhbTcOrg9AEUd9an1aZ1KVn0KcRZ/ZCfmbmXrs4fZMjqCyusdO4DMtmvoE57dZSj5Ub RNHJ2ynzuOypxvdNmxPSFBrzb/65b16q5tptV/YFrvzTpdTHijJl4k57x14LnzZBUf1BW2TC7/+2B 1x+3s3Iy/wVFH4Y7TewK2c46N2sILNWAHrv8eFc06LG2/SGXMQM8E6fAt67BZfX30CcCjno7pEgfx cZdk70YjF3xi/pKTXfw7nw==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qzpMo-0002Ai-Ao; Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:29:30 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> (message from Jim Porter on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:54:25 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual References: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1qzpMo-0002Ai-Ao@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:29:30 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66756 Cc: 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > +The @code{let} special form provides a way to confine your variables > +to a particular section of your code (in computer science jargon, a > +``scope''). @code{let} creates a name for a @dfn{local variable} that > +overshadows any use of the same name outside the @code{let} expression > +(we call this ``binding'' the variable). This prevents any accidental > +usage of these variables outside of the @code{let} expression. This is one of several reasons to use `let'. Others are * To compute a value once and use it more than once. * To create a loop index variable. * For special variables, to bind them si as to control the behavior of other code. Should all of them be mentioned in this node? I am not sure; that is a pedagogical question. But this node shouldn't assert that one reason is the only reason. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
.
Full text available.Received: (at 66756) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Nov 2023 02:30:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Nov 05 21:30:14 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38468 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qzpNW-0006FR-G1 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:30:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43840) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qzpNU-0006F7-Lh for 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:30:13 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qzpMo-0007lL-3x; Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:29:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=58Zi5U+KcoqOtzT3/iLnWCJ9kilXVHppT5YkMs3oAsk=; b=Wy/Yw5JE4D0J Bu9qAIfsAGtcsSMDtWbeSV6jVHM9N7FNqGuNL3sH3Uc5l8ZZVRpPXNWZ01oYt+kHrSXad2qeMEIfw taJJk1nN1/BNFiw+ZIZgO40eYZp9gNTsfu/pEQQgS+JvYEVsuNRLeH9VZuduZvuo69L+r96lLfkKz kcRFJ7HcRe7o075vuqN42jFuehqgRR2vwDzAB9MtfxHKi0zHj6I5JKDz90GqXPGdEkvYGjGloA2gl 0zG0rkIV7zn6Y0+JObro+zZh2zDzgI81YVicLa5cdwYGkZaFNrurvBONfzVptLEpz1FSivBET2yhz 0gI8Z3AbXZNP2hvGqi1k2Q==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qzpMn-00023S-L9; Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:29:29 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> (message from Jim Porter on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:54:25 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual References: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1qzpMn-00023S-L9@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:29:29 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66756 Cc: 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] This change is overall a step forward. Thanks for working on it. A few specific parts of the new text could use a little cleaning up; some of those parts are in the current version also. +``scope''). @code{let} creates a name for a @dfn{local variable} that +overshadows any use of the same name outside the @code{let} expression +(we call this ``binding'' the variable). The word "overshadows" seems stramge here. The usual term is "shadows", and I don't see that "overshadows" adds any clarity. > For historical reasons, Emacs Lisp uses a form of > +variable binding called ``dynamic binding''. This should say "by default", because it isn't always so. For instance, if you specify lexical binding, then Emacs Lisp does not use dynamic binding, except for variables marked special. > +lexical binding, you should add something like this to the first line Delete "something like". -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
.
Full text available.Received: (at 66756) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Nov 2023 08:28:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 04 04:28:42 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60489 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qzC1J-0007dA-O1 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Nov 2023 04:28:42 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58772) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1qzC1I-0007cv-3I for 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Nov 2023 04:28:40 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1qzC0c-0004hs-NO; Sat, 04 Nov 2023 04:27:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=PQIuBbTL7taVCJPMSHY6sljJE562Q9HEcQ4vn2MU6OA=; b=RbxIMFdg3b0B qNp8DqnUQpeFfykiOy5CyNVDEQ8ty63JvnEbDximA0KldyxJzmTVe8rC1tk0aRlxqh3JpgfSutGFL ZxCLEh2Xdyi5MjMep/JUUFpqTo8llvQyAY8WloXf4VfapUQkcITWVdJX4pGemuHnNipcyTyYcyEWl SSkP9qXbe53IaC93TD3LqNB13t8TfqrtklnvqMUTcs3XwOGeIAHhTQNyKiYFAvXD8+ZPU7VvVOFWk 76Exg9LkmfgGA8d/aMzdP5LsXh31/cDwbFf4PR8f+73Epdse2suUvvPo/F+MVU44DWNF2qliL1oFG qVBQtdavPgn2RTfH/6d7Mg==; Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2023 10:27:51 +0200 Message-Id: <83fs1l6hyw.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <a5120e2f-b008-1b74-1ad9-3fe7d861b13c@HIDDEN> (message from Jim Porter on Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:30:46 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual References: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> <a5120e2f-b008-1b74-1ad9-3fe7d861b13c@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66756 Cc: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>, 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:30:46 -0700 > From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> > > On 10/26/2023 12:09 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Thanks. > > > > The challenge in updating the Lisp Introduction manual is to try to > > keep its informal and reader-friendly style as much as possible. It > > is not just another ELisp Reference manual! So please try to keep > > that in mind when you write the text, and in particular try not to > > modify the existing text that is still accurate -- it was written by a > > master, and each word there counts, even if it looks at first sight as > > not important. > > Ok, here's a second attempt. I've tried to avoid changing anything that > I don't think is truly necessary. I did alter a bit of the original > wording to emphasize that under lexical binding, 'let' isn't about time, > but about place. For example, that's why I changed this: > > > This is like understanding that whenever your host refers to ``the house'', he means his house, not yours. > > to this: > > > This is like understanding that in your host's home, whenever he refers to ``the house'', he means his house, not yours. > > My previous concern about the "lexical binding" digression still applies > though. However, I'm not sure how to get around that at present; if we > want to talk about lexical binding in the manual, we need to get users > to enable it, so I think it's unavoidable that we at least mention it. I > tried to introduce the jargon as gently as I could (by first introducing > the term "binding" on its own before mentioning "lexical/dynamic > binding"), but it's still a bit intimidating. On the positive side, when > lexical binding is the default, we could remove that entire digression. > > There's also an argument that the example I added is in the wrong spot, > since we haven't actually introduced the 'let' syntax yet. However, I > personally find the example to be pretty useful since it shows off one > of the key differences between lexical and dynamic binding, and helps > show one of the boundaries of the 'let' form's scope. I myself tend to > learn best by seeing examples of that sort. Fixing the order so we > introduce the syntax first would require more extensive changes to this > section... Richard, could you please review these changes? > From 12847e0d59b2de3791efa090addc0169e713e6d1 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 > From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:43:57 -0700 > Subject: [PATCH] Introduce 'let' using lexical binding in the Lisp > Introduction > > * doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi (Prevent confusion): Rework the > explanation to discuss how things work under lexical binding > (including how to enable it). > --- > doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi | 67 ++++++++++++++++++++++------- > 1 file changed, 51 insertions(+), 16 deletions(-) > > diff --git a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi > index fce7583fe91..e805833f979 100644 > --- a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi > +++ b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi > @@ -3602,24 +3602,59 @@ Prevent confusion > @cindex @samp{variable, local}, defined > The @code{let} special form prevents confusion. @code{let} creates a > name for a @dfn{local variable} that overshadows any use of the same > -name outside the @code{let} expression. This is like understanding > -that whenever your host refers to ``the house'', he means his house, not > -yours. (Symbols used in argument lists work the same way. > +name outside the @code{let} expression (in computer science jargon, we > +call this ``binding'' the variable). This is like understanding that > +in your host's home, whenever he refers to ``the house'', he means his > +house, not yours. (Symbols used in argument lists work the same way. > @xref{defun, , The @code{defun} Macro}.) > > -Local variables created by a @code{let} expression retain their value > -@emph{only} within the @code{let} expression itself (and within > -expressions called within the @code{let} expression); the local > -variables have no effect outside the @code{let} expression. > - > -Another way to think about @code{let} is that it is like a @code{setq} > -that is temporary and local. The values set by @code{let} are > -automatically undone when the @code{let} is finished. The setting > -only affects expressions that are inside the bounds of the @code{let} > -expression. In computer science jargon, we would say the binding of > -a symbol is visible only in functions called in the @code{let} form; > -in Emacs Lisp, the default scoping is dynamic, not lexical. (The > -non-default lexical binding is not discussed in this manual.) > +@cindex lexical binding > +@cindex binding, lexical > +@cindex dynamic binding > +@cindex binding, dynamic > +Before we begin discussing @code{let} in detail, we must first mention > +an important note. For historical reasons, Emacs Lisp uses a form of > +variable binding called ``dynamic binding''. However, this manual > +will discuss the preferred form of binding, called ``lexical binding'' > +(if you have programmed in other languages before, you're likely > +already familiar with how lexical binding behaves). In order to use > +lexical binding, you should add something like this to the first line > +of your Emacs Lisp file: > + > +@example > +;;; -*- lexical-binding: t -*- > +@end example > + > +For more information about this, @pxref{Selecting Lisp Dialect, , , > +elisp, The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}. > + > +With that out of the way, we can get back to discussing @code{let}. > +Another way to think about @code{let} is that it defines a place in > +your code where the variables you named have their own local meaning. > +Outside of the @code{let} body, they have another meaning (or they may > +not be defined at all). > + > +This means that inside the @code{let} body, calling @code{setq} > +for a variable named by the @code{let} expression will set the value > +of the @emph{local} variable of that name. This also means that > +outside of the @code{let} body, calling @code{setq} for a variable > +named by the @code{let} expression will @emph{not} affect that local > +variable. > + > +For example, if you call a function inside of a @code{let} > +body, that function's body would be unable to ``see'' (or modify) the > +value of a local variable from the @code{let} expression: > + > +@example > +(setq x 1) > + > +(defun getx () > + x) > + > +(let ((x 2)) > + (get-x)) > + @result{} 1 > +@end example > > @code{let} can create more than one variable at once. Also, > @code{let} gives each variable it creates an initial value, either a > -- > 2.25.1 >
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
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Sun, 29 Oct 2023 17:18:32 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: "rms@HIDDEN" <rms@HIDDEN>, Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual Thread-Index: AQHaCoZlqolk2br6BEGeAg2k0lgaybBhAqCQ Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 17:18:31 +0000 Message-ID: <SJ0PR10MB5488DEF7684D147FC04E4A29F3A2A@HIDDEN> References: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> <a5120e2f-b008-1b74-1ad9-3fe7d861b13c@HIDDEN> <E1qx8nq-0007DY-HV@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <E1qx8nq-0007DY-HV@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|DM3PR10MB7969:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f3dc1b6d-f11e-48b2-fc4c-08dbd8a3136f x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
.
Full text available.Received: (at 66756) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Oct 2023 16:39:00 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 29 12:39:00 2023 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43235 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qx8oW-0007pS-0A for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:39:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41030) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qx8oS-0007p6-S5 for 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:38:58 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qx8nq-0004OB-Q6; Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:38:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=3o4GuYfPpxcQNIFAHn4D1eVAnkodg7AsZfnwhyDammM=; b=Tafljwats09F 5uj3Xa5QwQ2Mp1jwa1rCw7WDYlp5V3kSo95ic/fyj0i529/vC+2TcyUqj8hquUlhJkd7QhCI6TP8X FJP6UawpK6KNtH5kRqUKRY2Xk/FOTl9qKbQfxgAv7I/p+6UO88WpbsJd7EQIXvKuoWi+65gJAlFTs hL6zTOfg/1iUJiQhNXPDINlUUPC9KrCtFbS9jvmKEdbnuYUy7cDnklJQuIMp1N/MGcjYh+ovIXZa5 MzfO+Lds7PelVfyUYXnEyWlpgyGtxY+Xkl2qYBUuH+cviy3T0DTz6f2Mr24CNbzE5TSvREN1AbFds 5+tPxdZgW7XhcHy0ZrYhOA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <rms@HIDDEN>) id 1qx8nq-0007DY-HV; Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:38:18 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> To: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <a5120e2f-b008-1b74-1ad9-3fe7d861b13c@HIDDEN> (message from Jim Porter on Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:30:46 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual References: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> <a5120e2f-b008-1b74-1ad9-3fe7d861b13c@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1qx8nq-0007DY-HV@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:38:18 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66756 Cc: eliz@HIDDEN, 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: rms@HIDDEN Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > This is like understanding that in your host's home, whenever he refers to ``the house'', he means his house, not yours. That seems good enough to me. > My previous concern about the "lexical binding" digression still applies > though. However, I'm not sure how to get around that at present; if we > want to talk about lexical binding in the manual, we need to get users > to enable it, so I think it's unavoidable that we at least mention it. I think that the lexical/dynamic scope distinction is sufficiently important that this manual should explain it, whether or not hiding it is simply impossible. However, tehre are lots of simple Lisp functions for which lexical vs dynamic maks no diffeence. For example, (defun square (x) (* x x)) So perhaps it is possible for the first few sections to use examples which work the same in lexical mode and dynamic mode, THEN show an example for which it does make a difference as a way to explain the two modes. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
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[76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id s187-20020a625ec4000000b0068ff267f094sm11980235pfb.158.2023.10.26.11.30.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------pLS8SgkCX4BkOUlIXEdkfVyJ" Message-ID: <a5120e2f-b008-1b74-1ad9-3fe7d861b13c@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:30:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: bug#66756: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual Content-Language: en-US From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> To: 66756 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN References: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66756 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------pLS8SgkCX4BkOUlIXEdkfVyJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/26/2023 12:09 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Thanks. > > The challenge in updating the Lisp Introduction manual is to try to > keep its informal and reader-friendly style as much as possible. It > is not just another ELisp Reference manual! So please try to keep > that in mind when you write the text, and in particular try not to > modify the existing text that is still accurate -- it was written by a > master, and each word there counts, even if it looks at first sight as > not important. Ok, here's a second attempt. I've tried to avoid changing anything that I don't think is truly necessary. I did alter a bit of the original wording to emphasize that under lexical binding, 'let' isn't about time, but about place. For example, that's why I changed this: > This is like understanding that whenever your host refers to ``the house'', he means his house, not yours. to this: > This is like understanding that in your host's home, whenever he refers to ``the house'', he means his house, not yours. My previous concern about the "lexical binding" digression still applies though. However, I'm not sure how to get around that at present; if we want to talk about lexical binding in the manual, we need to get users to enable it, so I think it's unavoidable that we at least mention it. I tried to introduce the jargon as gently as I could (by first introducing the term "binding" on its own before mentioning "lexical/dynamic binding"), but it's still a bit intimidating. On the positive side, when lexical binding is the default, we could remove that entire digression. There's also an argument that the example I added is in the wrong spot, since we haven't actually introduced the 'let' syntax yet. However, I personally find the example to be pretty useful since it shows off one of the key differences between lexical and dynamic binding, and helps show one of the boundaries of the 'let' form's scope. I myself tend to learn best by seeing examples of that sort. Fixing the order so we introduce the syntax first would require more extensive changes to this section... --------------pLS8SgkCX4BkOUlIXEdkfVyJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="0001-Introduce-let-using-lexical-binding-in-the-Lisp-Intr.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename*0="0001-Introduce-let-using-lexical-binding-in-the-Lisp-Intr.pa"; filename*1="tch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSAxMjg0N2UwZDU5YjJkZTM3OTFlZmEwOTBhZGRjMDE2OWU3MTNlNmQxIE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBKaW0gUG9ydGVyIDxqcG9ydGVyYnVnc0BnbWFpbC5j b20+CkRhdGU6IFdlZCwgMjUgT2N0IDIwMjMgMjA6NDM6NTcgLTA3MDAKU3ViamVjdDogW1BB VENIXSBJbnRyb2R1Y2UgJ2xldCcgdXNpbmcgbGV4aWNhbCBiaW5kaW5nIGluIHRoZSBMaXNw CiBJbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24KCiogZG9jL2xpc3BpbnRyby9lbWFjcy1saXNwLWludHJvLnRleGkg KFByZXZlbnQgY29uZnVzaW9uKTogUmV3b3JrIHRoZQpleHBsYW5hdGlvbiB0byBkaXNjdXNz IGhvdyB0aGluZ3Mgd29yayB1bmRlciBsZXhpY2FsIGJpbmRpbmcKKGluY2x1ZGluZyBob3cg dG8gZW5hYmxlIGl0KS4KLS0tCiBkb2MvbGlzcGludHJvL2VtYWNzLWxpc3AtaW50cm8udGV4 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
.
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[76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id mv7-20020a17090b198700b002744cd7e687sm1017751pjb.1.2023.10.25.22.54.25 for <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------TSZQr00hDOQTeZcFlCrzSt2n" Message-ID: <a9812c1d-71e4-5f3f-83a4-a2923e649f3a@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:54:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mozilla-News-Host: news://news.gmane.io:119 Content-Language: en-US To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> Subject: 30.0.50; [PATCH] Improve discussion of 'let' in Elisp Introduction manual Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::535; envelope-from=jporterbugs@HIDDEN; helo=mail-pg1-x535.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------TSZQr00hDOQTeZcFlCrzSt2n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (Spun out from bug#66706. My previous message below.) On 10/25/2023 8:48 PM, Jim Porter wrote: > On 10/25/2023 6:19 PM, Jim Porter wrote: >> I'll start with a patch here then. I think this is also a prime spot >> to add an example or two that would actually show lexical binding in >> action (i.e. a sample where the code would do something different >> under dynamic binding). > > Here's a first attempt. I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it (the > digression into setting 'lexical-binding' to 't' is a bit disruptive), > but hopefully it's an improvement. Of course, we can keep adjusting this > further as needed. --------------TSZQr00hDOQTeZcFlCrzSt2n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="0001-Introduce-let-using-lexical-binding-in-the-Lisp-Intr.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename*0="0001-Introduce-let-using-lexical-binding-in-the-Lisp-Intr.pa"; filename*1="tch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSA2YmM5YmJiYjk4MTA1ZjcwMGJiOGQ1YjA0ZThkZTVlMjYxZWZhNzc3IE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBKaW0gUG9ydGVyIDxqcG9ydGVyYnVnc0BnbWFpbC5j b20+CkRhdGU6IFdlZCwgMjUgT2N0IDIwMjMgMjA6NDM6NTcgLTA3MDAKU3ViamVjdDogW1BB VENIXSBJbnRyb2R1Y2UgJ2xldCcgdXNpbmcgbGV4aWNhbCBiaW5kaW5nIGluIHRoZSBMaXNw CiBJbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24KCiogZG9jL2xpc3BpbnRyby9lbWFjcy1saXNwLWludHJvLnRleGkg KFByZXZlbnQgY29uZnVzaW9uKTogUmVuYW1lIHRvLi4uCihXaHkgVXNlIGxldD8pOiAuLi4g dGhpcywgYW5kIHJld29yayB0aGUgZXhwbGFuYXRpb24gdG8gZGlzY3VzcwpsZXhpY2FsIGJp bmRpbmcgKGluY2x1ZGluZyBob3cgdG8gZW5hYmxlIGl0KS4KLS0tCiBkb2MvbGlzcGludHJv 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Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>
:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
:bug#66756
; Package emacs
.
Full text available.
GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd,
1994-97 Ian Jackson.