GNU bug report logs - #67003
26.3; (elisp) Basic Char Syntax: Show octal and Unicode names as well, for chars

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: 26.3; (elisp) Basic Char Syntax: Show octal and Unicode names as
 well, for chars
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 21:17:56 +0000

In the list of character representations shown, please:

1. State that the digits shown (so far) are decimal.
2. But show also the octal digits.
3. Show also other names, such as Unicode/ISO names.
   E.g., say that "vertical tab" is the char that has the ISO name
   <Line Tabulation> (VT).  (And still mention that it's C-k.)

IOW, give a little more info, esp. commonly encountered or "official" names for such chars.

https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+000B

In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32)
 of 2019-08-29
Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19045
Configured using:
 `configure --without-dbus --host=x86_64-w64-mingw32
 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=-O2 -static -g3''

Message #8 received at 67003 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 67003 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#67003: 26.3;
 (elisp) Basic Char Syntax: Show octal and Unicode names as well, for
 chars
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2023 11:21:32 +0200

> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 21:17:56 +0000
> 
> In the list of character representations shown, please:
> 
> 1. State that the digits shown (so far) are decimal.

The very first sentence there says:

  Since characters are really integers, the printed representation of a
  character is a decimal number.

And all the rest of the subsection shows those printed representations.

> 2. But show also the octal digits.

Show where and how?  And why?

> 3. Show also other names, such as Unicode/ISO names.
>    E.g., say that "vertical tab" is the char that has the ISO name
>    <Line Tabulation> (VT).  (And still mention that it's C-k.)

The next subsection, "General Escape Syntax", includes this
information.

> IOW, give a little more info, esp. commonly encountered or "official" names for such chars.

I think we already do, but you need to consider the entire section,
not just its single subsection, which correctly starts with the
basics, before we proceed with more advanced stuff.

Message #11 received at 67003 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "67003 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <67003 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#67003: 26.3; (elisp) Basic Char Syntax: Show
 octal and Unicode names as well, for chars
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 15:54:59 +0000

> > In the list of character representations shown, please:
> >
> > 1. State that the digits shown (so far) are decimal.
> 
> The very first sentence there says:
> 
>   Since characters are really integers, the printed
>   representation of a character is a decimal number.
> 
> And all the rest of the subsection shows those printed representations.

Maybe - if one interprets the rightwards double
arrow as showing the "printed representation"
and not just a result of evaluation.  But OK.

> > 2. But show also the octal digits.

> Show where and how?  And why?

Where we show the ?\ char representation, its
decimal equivalent (⇒), char name/description (in
a comment), and key description (in the comment).

IOW, where we specify these chars that have their
own, dedicated escape sequences.

Why?  Because in `General Escape Syntax' we say
that you can use octal char codes.  Why not show
the octal values for these chars here?

Why not show the hex values also, as that's what
`insert-char' accepts?  Octal (by default) for
`C-q', hex for `C-x 8 RET'.  To insert a char
that has its own escape syntax you pretty much
need to know its Unicode name or octal or hex
code.  Neither `C-q' nor `C-x 8 RET' lets you
give it `?\v' etc. as input.

`Basic Char Syntax' could also usefully say
something about where you can use escape
sequences - and that's _not_ to interactively
insert such a char.

This isn't clear at all from this topic, which
intends to tell you about basic char syntax.
The topic tells you about a basic syntax for
_reading_ chars in buffer text, but not for
inserting them.

> > 3. Show also other names, such as Unicode/ISO names.
> >    E.g., say that "vertical tab" is the char that has the ISO name
> >    <Line Tabulation> (VT).  (And still mention that it's C-k.)
> 
> The next subsection, "General Escape Syntax",
> includes this information.

Not for these specific chars that have dedicated
escape syntaxes, it doesn't.  They're specified
only in `Basic Char Syntax'.

> > IOW, give a little more info, esp. commonly
> > encountered or "official" names for such chars.
> 
> I think we already do, but you need to consider the entire section,
> not just its single subsection, which correctly starts with the
> basics, before we proceed with more advanced stuff.

I don't see that it would be bad to let users know,
here, that what we call "vertical tab" here is also
called "line tabulation".  Try inserting that char
using `insert-char' without knowing its Unicode/ISO
name or its hex value - good luck.

This is the place where we specify the chars that
have their own escape sequences.  I think it would
help to describe them more fully here - at least
give their names, and maybe the octal and hex codes.

Such info is not "advanced stuff".  It's better
info about these chars.  This node goes into other
stuff that really is "more advanced stuff" - the
complex last paragraph, for instance.

Wrt the chars that have their own, dedicated escape
syntax, IF this is the place to specify them THEN
it should also be the place to specify them better.

IMHO.

Message #16 received at 67003-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 67003-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#67003: 26.3; (elisp) Basic Char Syntax: Show
 octal and Unicode names as well, for chars
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2023 18:30:54 +0200

> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> CC: "67003 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <67003 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 15:54:59 +0000
> 
> > > 2. But show also the octal digits.
> 
> > Show where and how?  And why?
> 
> Where we show the ?\ char representation, its
> decimal equivalent (⇒), char name/description (in
> a comment), and key description (in the comment).
> 
> IOW, where we specify these chars that have their
> own, dedicated escape sequences.
> 
> Why?  Because in `General Escape Syntax' we say
> that you can use octal char codes.  Why not show
> the octal values for these chars here?

They are shown in the very next subsection.

> Why not show the hex values also, as that's what
> `insert-char' accepts?

Ditto.

> `Basic Char Syntax' could also usefully say
> something about where you can use escape
> sequences - and that's _not_ to interactively
> insert such a char.

That's a separate issue, but the next section says something about
that as well.

> > > 3. Show also other names, such as Unicode/ISO names.
> > >    E.g., say that "vertical tab" is the char that has the ISO name
> > >    <Line Tabulation> (VT).  (And still mention that it's C-k.)
> > 
> > The next subsection, "General Escape Syntax",
> > includes this information.
> 
> Not for these specific chars that have dedicated
> escape syntaxes, it doesn't.  They're specified
> only in `Basic Char Syntax'.

I don't see the significance.  We obviously cannot show all the
characters, and it isn't like VT is an important one.  It is just an
example.

> > > IOW, give a little more info, esp. commonly
> > > encountered or "official" names for such chars.
> > 
> > I think we already do, but you need to consider the entire section,
> > not just its single subsection, which correctly starts with the
> > basics, before we proceed with more advanced stuff.
> 
> I don't see that it would be bad to let users know,
> here, that what we call "vertical tab" here is also
> called "line tabulation".  Try inserting that char
> using `insert-char' without knowing its Unicode/ISO
> name or its hex value - good luck.

Lumping too much material in a single subsection is bad from the
methodological POV: it makes the subsection more confusing and harder
to read.

So I don't think we need to do anything with this issue, and I'm
therefore closing it.

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