Package: emacs;
Reported by: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 21:48:01 UTC
Severity: normal
Found in version 29.1
Done: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
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bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Wed, 06 Dec 2023 21:48:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>:bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org.
(Wed, 06 Dec 2023 21:48:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org Subject: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2023 13:47:02 -0800
In section "the `kill-new' function" - the third last paragraph to be precise - there are some texts in parentheses that discusses potentially using an `and' to replace the `if' statement being discussed. It looks like to be referring to an earlier version of the code example[1] before using the version from Emacs 22. Meanwhile, it looks like relying on the side effect of `and' to emulate an `if' may not be a good idea nowadays. So is it OK to drop this advice? [1] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi#n8597 In GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.37, cairo version 1.16.0) of 2023-09-19, modified by Debian built on debian-hx90 System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm) Configured using: 'configure --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=/usr --sharedstatedir=/var/lib --libexecdir=/usr/libexec --localstatedir=/var/lib --infodir=/usr/share/info --mandir=/usr/share/man --with-libsystemd --with-pop=yes --enable-locallisppath=/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/29.1/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/29.1/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp --with-sound=alsa --without-gconf --with-mailutils --with-native-compilation --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=/usr --sharedstatedir=/var/lib --libexecdir=/usr/libexec --localstatedir=/var/lib --infodir=/usr/share/info --mandir=/usr/share/man --with-libsystemd --with-pop=yes 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bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Wed, 06 Dec 2023 22:10:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #8 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> To: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2023 14:08:43 -0800
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Please see the following patch that whether it makes sense to drop that part.
[0001-Drop-text-suggesting-using-and-to-replace-if-Bug-676.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]
[Message part 3 (text/plain, inline)]
-- Xiyue Deng
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Thu, 07 Dec 2023 06:29:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #11 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> To: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 08:28:23 +0200
> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2023 13:47:02 -0800
>
>
> In section "the `kill-new' function" - the third last paragraph to be
> precise - there are some texts in parentheses that discusses potentially
> using an `and' to replace the `if' statement being discussed. It looks
> like to be referring to an earlier version of the code example[1] before
> using the version from Emacs 22. Meanwhile, it looks like relying on
> the side effect of `and' to emulate an `if' may not be a good idea
> nowadays. So is it OK to drop this advice?
AFAIU, the relevant fragment is:
The expression looks like this:
(if interprogram-cut-function
(funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace))))
If an ‘interprogram-cut-function’ exists, then Emacs executes
‘funcall’, which in turn calls its first argument as a function and
passes the remaining arguments to it. (Incidentally, as far as I can
see, this ‘if’ expression could be replaced by an ‘and’ expression
similar to the one in the first part of the function.)
I don't see anything wrong here. Can you elaborate on why you think
the text in parentheses is inaccurate or incorrect or unclear?
Thanks.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Thu, 07 Dec 2023 09:10:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #14 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 01:08:51 -0800
Hi Eli, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: >> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> >> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2023 13:47:02 -0800 >> >> >> In section "the `kill-new' function" - the third last paragraph to be >> precise - there are some texts in parentheses that discusses potentially >> using an `and' to replace the `if' statement being discussed. It looks >> like to be referring to an earlier version of the code example[1] before >> using the version from Emacs 22. Meanwhile, it looks like relying on >> the side effect of `and' to emulate an `if' may not be a good idea >> nowadays. So is it OK to drop this advice? > > AFAIU, the relevant fragment is: > > The expression looks like this: > > (if interprogram-cut-function > (funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace)))) > > If an ‘interprogram-cut-function’ exists, then Emacs executes > ‘funcall’, which in turn calls its first argument as a function and > passes the remaining arguments to it. (Incidentally, as far as I can > see, this ‘if’ expression could be replaced by an ‘and’ expression > similar to the one in the first part of the function.) > > I don't see anything wrong here. Can you elaborate on why you think > the text in parentheses is inaccurate or incorrect or unclear? Sorry I wasn't very clear. I was referring to the part "... could be replaced by an ‘and’ expression similar to _the one in the first part of the function_." But when I tried to search for `and' in the example code of that section I found no `and' usage at all, which confused me a bit. It was not until I looked at the texi source that I noticed that the original example code did use `and' which I linked in my first email, and it was later replace by the current one from Emacs 22 which no longer used `and'. Thus I would consider the text in the parentheses you quoted to be obsolete. And of course as I mentioned in the previous email, IMHO it is probably not a good advice to use `and' to emulate `if'. > > Thanks. -- Xiyue Deng
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Thu, 07 Dec 2023 10:17:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #17 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> To: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:16:00 +0200
> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 01:08:51 -0800
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
> > AFAIU, the relevant fragment is:
> >
> > The expression looks like this:
> >
> > (if interprogram-cut-function
> > (funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace))))
> >
> > If an ‘interprogram-cut-function’ exists, then Emacs executes
> > ‘funcall’, which in turn calls its first argument as a function and
> > passes the remaining arguments to it. (Incidentally, as far as I can
> > see, this ‘if’ expression could be replaced by an ‘and’ expression
> > similar to the one in the first part of the function.)
> >
> > I don't see anything wrong here. Can you elaborate on why you think
> > the text in parentheses is inaccurate or incorrect or unclear?
>
> Sorry I wasn't very clear. I was referring to the part "... could be
> replaced by an ‘and’ expression similar to _the one in the first part of
> the function_." But when I tried to search for `and' in the example
> code of that section I found no `and' usage at all, which confused me a
> bit.
I think it means this part earlier in the node:
(if (fboundp 'menu-bar-update-yank-menu)
(menu-bar-update-yank-menu string (and replace (car kill-ring))))
> It was not until I looked at the texi source that I noticed that
> the original example code did use `and' which I linked in my first
> email, and it was later replace by the current one from Emacs 22 which
> no longer used `and'. Thus I would consider the text in the parentheses
> you quoted to be obsolete.
I don't think so.
> And of course as I mentioned in the previous email, IMHO it is probably
> not a good advice to use `and' to emulate `if'.
I disagree. I think the discussion of 'if' and 'and' there is
entirely appropriate and educational, and I personally do use these
interchangeably in some situations.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Thu, 07 Dec 2023 17:50:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #20 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 09:49:13 -0800
Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
>> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 01:08:51 -0800
>>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>>
>> > AFAIU, the relevant fragment is:
>> >
>> > The expression looks like this:
>> >
>> > (if interprogram-cut-function
>> > (funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace))))
>> >
>> > If an ‘interprogram-cut-function’ exists, then Emacs executes
>> > ‘funcall’, which in turn calls its first argument as a function and
>> > passes the remaining arguments to it. (Incidentally, as far as I can
>> > see, this ‘if’ expression could be replaced by an ‘and’ expression
>> > similar to the one in the first part of the function.)
>> >
>> > I don't see anything wrong here. Can you elaborate on why you think
>> > the text in parentheses is inaccurate or incorrect or unclear?
>>
>> Sorry I wasn't very clear. I was referring to the part "... could be
>> replaced by an ‘and’ expression similar to _the one in the first part of
>> the function_." But when I tried to search for `and' in the example
>> code of that section I found no `and' usage at all, which confused me a
>> bit.
>
> I think it means this part earlier in the node:
>
> (if (fboundp 'menu-bar-update-yank-menu)
> (menu-bar-update-yank-menu string (and replace (car kill-ring))))
To be super nitpicking, the text said "the one in the _first part_ of
the function", while this code snippet you quoted is the second
statement in the code example. If we look at the old code (which is
currently marked as ignore in the texi source), the first part is:
(and (fboundp 'menu-bar-update-yank-menu)
(menu-bar-update-yank-menu string (and replace (car kill-ring))))
Which IMHO lets the text make more sense. But anyway.
>
>> It was not until I looked at the texi source that I noticed that
>> the original example code did use `and' which I linked in my first
>> email, and it was later replace by the current one from Emacs 22 which
>> no longer used `and'. Thus I would consider the text in the parentheses
>> you quoted to be obsolete.
>
> I don't think so.
>
>> And of course as I mentioned in the previous email, IMHO it is probably
>> not a good advice to use `and' to emulate `if'.
>
> I disagree. I think the discussion of 'if' and 'and' there is
> entirely appropriate and educational, and I personally do use these
> interchangeably in some situations.
Agreed on the point of being educational, and of course in the end
coding style is mostly a matter of personal preference. However, I
would argue a bit that in such case we wouldn't need `if' or `when' at
all as both can be emulated by `and' and `or' if you are careful enough.
On the other hand, `if' and `when' should exist for a reason. I quite
like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side
effects, whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions.
Interestingly the current example you quoted changed from using `and'
(as in the old version I quoted) to `if' probably based on this
reasoning. Similarly I wouldn't suggest to replace `if' with `and' in
the original example around the text we are discussing:
(if interprogram-cut-function
(funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace))))
as we are also guarding a side effect here.
Wdyt?
[1] https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/14204
--
Xiyue Deng
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Thu, 07 Dec 2023 17:57:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #23 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> To: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 19:56:29 +0200
> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> > Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 09:49:13 -0800 > > Agreed on the point of being educational, and of course in the end > coding style is mostly a matter of personal preference. However, I > would argue a bit that in such case we wouldn't need `if' or `when' at > all as both can be emulated by `and' and `or' if you are careful enough. > On the other hand, `if' and `when' should exist for a reason. I quite > like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side > effects, whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions. > Interestingly the current example you quoted changed from using `and' > (as in the old version I quoted) to `if' probably based on this > reasoning. Similarly I wouldn't suggest to replace `if' with `and' in > the original example around the text we are discussing: > > (if interprogram-cut-function > (funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace)))) > > as we are also guarding a side effect here. > > Wdyt? Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "guarding a side effect", and I'm not sure where this discussion goes. If the issue is personal stylistic preferences, then I'd prefer to leave the text as it was according to the preferences of the original author (which I happen to share, but that's not important). OK?
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Thu, 07 Dec 2023 19:38:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #26 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> To: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> Cc: "67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:37:30 +0000
> I quite like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side > effects, More clearly, `when' and `unless' (not `if', which is general - no special suggestion) are used to suggest (to humans) that they're used _only_ to perform side effects. With this convention, code shouldn't depend on their (always `nil') return value. > whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions. That too isn't really the convention (though it is what's said in that emacs.SE answer). What should be said is that you use `and' and `or' when _the return value matters_, i.e., when it's used somewhere. That does _not_ preclude the use of `and' and `or' to perform side effects. It's simply that the _return value matters_. Unlike `progn', the (Boolean) return value of each of their "steps" (sexps) determines whether subsequent ones are evaluated. I've added another answer to the emacs.SE question you cited: https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/79744/105 But as you correctly noted, such conventions are a question of personal (or group) coding style. Lisp doesn't care or recognize any such meaning.
Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>:Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>:Message #31 received at 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> Cc: 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 11:54:20 -0800
Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: >> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> >> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 09:49:13 -0800 >> >> Agreed on the point of being educational, and of course in the end >> coding style is mostly a matter of personal preference. However, I >> would argue a bit that in such case we wouldn't need `if' or `when' at >> all as both can be emulated by `and' and `or' if you are careful enough. >> On the other hand, `if' and `when' should exist for a reason. I quite >> like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side >> effects, whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions. >> Interestingly the current example you quoted changed from using `and' >> (as in the old version I quoted) to `if' probably based on this >> reasoning. Similarly I wouldn't suggest to replace `if' with `and' in >> the original example around the text we are discussing: >> >> (if interprogram-cut-function >> (funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace)))) >> >> as we are also guarding a side effect here. >> >> Wdyt? > > Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "guarding a side effect", I was referring to whether we care about and use the result of the statement/function call. In `and' we do, in `if' we don't and we just use the side effect. > and I'm not sure where this discussion goes. If the issue is personal > stylistic preferences, then I'd prefer to leave the text as it was > according to the preferences of the original author (which I happen to > share, but that's not important). > > OK? As I was just trying to argue just "a bit", I won't be insisting either. Thanks for listening, and let me close this. -- Xiyue Deng
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Thu, 07 Dec 2023 20:02:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #34 received at 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: [External] : bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:00:42 -0800
Hi Drew, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes: >> I quite like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side >> effects, > > More clearly, `when' and `unless' (not `if', which is general - no > special suggestion) are used to suggest (to humans) that they're used > _only_ to perform side effects. With this convention, code shouldn't > depend on their (always `nil') return value. > >> whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions. > > That too isn't really the convention (though it is what's said in that emacs.SE answer). > > What should be said is that you use `and' and `or' when _the return value matters_, i.e., when it's used somewhere. > > That does _not_ preclude the use of `and' and `or' to perform side > effects. It's simply that the _return value matters_. Unlike > `progn', the (Boolean) return value of each of their "steps" (sexps) > determines whether subsequent ones are evaluated. Agreed here. I was quoting the SE answer for the "pure function" part, but indeed I also think what matters is whether we use the results. > > I've added another answer to the emacs.SE question you cited: > > https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/79744/105 > > But as you correctly noted, such conventions are a question of personal (or group) coding style. Lisp doesn't care or recognize any such meaning. Also agreed. And I've since closed this. Thanks for the discussion! -- Xiyue Deng
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Thu, 07 Dec 2023 20:24:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #37 received at 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> To: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> Cc: 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 22:22:57 +0200
> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 11:54:20 -0800
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
> > Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "guarding a side effect",
>
> I was referring to whether we care about and use the result of the
> statement/function call. In `and' we do, in `if' we don't and we just
> use the side effect.
But that's not true. 'if' does return a value, and we do use it.
Consider this random example:
(defsubst posn-area (position)
[...]
(let ((area (if (consp (nth 1 position))
(car (nth 1 position))
(nth 1 position))))
(and (symbolp area) area)))
Here we bind 'area' to the value returned by 'if'.
> As I was just trying to argue just "a bit", I won't be insisting either.
> Thanks for listening, and let me close this.
Thanks.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Thu, 07 Dec 2023 20:39:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #40 received at 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> Cc: 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:37:58 -0800
Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: >> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> >> Cc: 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 11:54:20 -0800 >> >> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: >> >> > Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "guarding a side effect", >> >> I was referring to whether we care about and use the result of the >> statement/function call. In `and' we do, in `if' we don't and we just >> use the side effect. > > But that's not true. 'if' does return a value, and we do use it. > Consider this random example: > > (defsubst posn-area (position) > [...] > (let ((area (if (consp (nth 1 position)) > (car (nth 1 position)) > (nth 1 position)))) > (and (symbolp area) area))) > > Here we bind 'area' to the value returned by 'if'. Well if we use `if' with else then yes. Actually as Drew pointed out this suggestion makes more sense if we are comparing `and' and `when' (a.k.a. if without else), but point taken. > >> As I was just trying to argue just "a bit", I won't be insisting either. >> Thanks for listening, and let me close this. > > Thanks. -- Xiyue Deng
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Thu, 07 Dec 2023 21:30:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #43 received at 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> To: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> Cc: "67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 21:29:04 +0000
> Well if we use `if' with else then yes. Even if we use it with THEN. `if' and `cond' are completely general and don't, by themselves abstractly, suggest any particular connotation for a human reader. They can return any value you like. Whether the value returned is used anywhere is neither determined nor suggested by any convention.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Fri, 08 Dec 2023 06:26:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #46 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> To: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 08:25:16 +0200
> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:37:58 -0800
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
> >> I was referring to whether we care about and use the result of the
> >> statement/function call. In `and' we do, in `if' we don't and we just
> >> use the side effect.
> >
> > But that's not true. 'if' does return a value, and we do use it.
> > Consider this random example:
> >
> > (defsubst posn-area (position)
> > [...]
> > (let ((area (if (consp (nth 1 position))
> > (car (nth 1 position))
> > (nth 1 position))))
> > (and (symbolp area) area)))
> >
> > Here we bind 'area' to the value returned by 'if'.
>
> Well if we use `if' with else then yes.
No. When 'if' has no 'else' clause, and the test fails, 'if' returns
nil. This is used in many places in our code. Like this:
(let (baz)
(setq foo (concat "bar" (if (stringp baz) baz))))
=> "bar"
Here 'if' returns nil, and we use the feature of 'concat' to ignore
nil arguments.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Fri, 08 Dec 2023 09:08:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #49 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 01:07:27 -0800
Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: >> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> >> Cc: 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:37:58 -0800 >> >> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: >> >> >> I was referring to whether we care about and use the result of the >> >> statement/function call. In `and' we do, in `if' we don't and we just >> >> use the side effect. >> > >> > But that's not true. 'if' does return a value, and we do use it. >> > Consider this random example: >> > >> > (defsubst posn-area (position) >> > [...] >> > (let ((area (if (consp (nth 1 position)) >> > (car (nth 1 position)) >> > (nth 1 position)))) >> > (and (symbolp area) area))) >> > >> > Here we bind 'area' to the value returned by 'if'. >> >> Well if we use `if' with else then yes. > > No. When 'if' has no 'else' clause, and the test fails, 'if' returns > nil. This is used in many places in our code. Like this: > > (let (baz) > (setq foo (concat "bar" (if (stringp baz) baz)))) > => "bar" > > Here 'if' returns nil, and we use the feature of 'concat' to ignore > nil arguments. Ah I see. So it looks like in Elisp `and' and `if' are actually used interchangeably. This was not very obvious at first for me who's more familiar with other imperative languages. TIL. Thanks! -- Xiyue Deng
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Fri, 08 Dec 2023 09:13:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #52 received at 67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, "67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <67669-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Re: [External] : bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 01:11:49 -0800
Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes: >> Well if we use `if' with else then yes. > > Even if we use it with THEN. > > `if' and `cond' are completely general and > don't, by themselves abstractly, suggest > any particular connotation for a human > reader. They can return any value you like. > Whether the value returned is used anywhere > is neither determined nor suggested by any > convention. Ack. As I replied to Eli, TIL that `and' and `if' are actually used interchangeably in Elisp. Thanks! -- Xiyue Deng
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Fri, 08 Dec 2023 10:46:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #55 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name> To: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 10:45:18 +0000
Hello, On Thu 07 Dec 2023 at 09:49am -08, Xiyue Deng wrote: > Agreed on the point of being educational, and of course in the end > coding style is mostly a matter of personal preference. However, I > would argue a bit that in such case we wouldn't need `if' or `when' at > all as both can be emulated by `and' and `or' if you are careful enough. > On the other hand, `if' and `when' should exist for a reason. I quite > like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side > effects, whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions. > Interestingly the current example you quoted changed from using `and' > (as in the old version I quoted) to `if' probably based on this > reasoning. Similarly I wouldn't suggest to replace `if' with `and' in > the original example around the text we are discussing: It's an old Lisp convention, not Emacs-specific, to use 'and' for return value and 'when' for side-effects, and not to use 'if' when there is no 'else' clause. -- Sean Whitton
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Fri, 08 Dec 2023 15:38:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #58 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> Cc: "67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 15:37:01 +0000
> (let (baz) > (setq foo (concat "bar" (if (stringp baz) baz)))) > => "bar" > > Here 'if' returns nil, and we use the feature of > 'concat' to ignore nil arguments. IMO the meaning/behavior is clearer with `and': (let (baz) (setq foo (concat "bar" (and (stringp baz) baz)))) But again, such stylistic concerns are exactly that.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#67669; Package emacs.
(Fri, 08 Dec 2023 22:43:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #61 received at 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com> To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name> Cc: 67669 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> Subject: Re: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 14:41:52 -0800
Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name> writes: > Hello, > > On Thu 07 Dec 2023 at 09:49am -08, Xiyue Deng wrote: > >> Agreed on the point of being educational, and of course in the end >> coding style is mostly a matter of personal preference. However, I >> would argue a bit that in such case we wouldn't need `if' or `when' at >> all as both can be emulated by `and' and `or' if you are careful enough. >> On the other hand, `if' and `when' should exist for a reason. I quite >> like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side >> effects, whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions. >> Interestingly the current example you quoted changed from using `and' >> (as in the old version I quoted) to `if' probably based on this >> reasoning. Similarly I wouldn't suggest to replace `if' with `and' in >> the original example around the text we are discussing: > > It's an old Lisp convention, not Emacs-specific, to use 'and' for return > value and 'when' for side-effects, and not to use 'if' when there is no > 'else' clause. Ack. Thanks for the historical tip! -- Xiyue Deng
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