GNU logs - #69480, boring messages

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Subject: bug#69480: Emacs Lisp needs, for its great 'native-compile', 'declare' and 'the' for fixnums and arrays.
Resent-From: Robert Boyer <robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN>
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From: Robert Boyer <robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:40:14 -0600
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I show beyond all doubt how much Emacs Lisp needs, for its great
'native-compile',
'declare' and 'the' for fixnums and arrays.

Why? 8X!

If every time you aref a vector or increment a fixnum you have to check
things, you are going to waste a lot of cpu time. A programmer NEEDS to be
able to TELL the system things that should not be checked constantly.
Imagine
how slow one would be if he/she had to check that he/she was alive every
heart beat.

I have attached two files, eratosthenese.el and eratosthenese.lisp, the
first coded in Emacs Lisp and the second in Common Lisp.

In all that follows, I am running on a $100 Lenovo Chromebook.

The Sieve of Eratosthenese is the second oldest algorithm I am aware of, the
oldest being gcd.

Consider this form:

(progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark (build-sieve (expt
10 8)) 1))

First of all, 'benchmark' has an obvious bug because it reports a time of
.000005 seconds.

So I used the timer on my trusty $130 moto g pure phone.

After finding the file eratosthenese.el, the evaluation of the form above
takes 69 seconds in Emacs.

After entering SBCL and loading eratosthenese.lisp, (build-sieve (expt 10
8))
takes 8 seconds.

Q.E.D.

Bob

I attach stuff that I do not understand but that you may like.

From: bob <bob@penguin>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: 28.2; Why Emacs Lisp needs declare and the for fixnums and arrays.
--text follows this line--




In GNU Emacs 28.2 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.37,
cairo version 1.16.0)
 of 2023-05-13, modified by Debian built on x86-ubc-01
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12014000
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)

Configured using:
 'configure --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=/usr
 --sharedstatedir=/var/lib --libexecdir=/usr/libexec
 --localstatedir=/var/lib --infodir=/usr/share/info
 --mandir=/usr/share/man --with-libsystemd --with-pop=yes
 --enable-locallisppath=/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/28.2/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/28.2/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp
 --with-sound=alsa --without-gconf --with-mailutils
 --with-native-compilation --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=/usr
 --sharedstatedir=/var/lib --libexecdir=/usr/libexec
 --localstatedir=/var/lib --infodir=/usr/share/info
 --mandir=/usr/share/man --with-libsystemd --with-pop=yes
 --enable-locallisppath=/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/28.2/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/28.2/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp
 --with-sound=alsa --without-gconf --with-mailutils
 --with-native-compilation --with-cairo --with-x=yes
 --with-x-toolkit=gtk3 --with-toolkit-scroll-bars 'CFLAGS=-g -O2
 -ffile-prefix-map=/build/emacs-mPr7Vr/emacs-28.2+1=.
 -fstack-protector-strong -Wformat -Werror=format-security -Wall'
 'CPPFLAGS=-Wdate-time -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2' LDFLAGS=-Wl,-z,relro'

Configured features:
ACL CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG
JSON LCMS2 LIBOTF LIBSELINUX LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 M17N_FLT MODULES
NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND THREADS TIFF
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS X11 XDBE XIM XPM GTK3 ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Text

Minor modes in effect:
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None found.

Features:
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derived epg rfc6068 epg-config gnus-util mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode
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backtrace find-func time-date compile text-property-search comp
comp-cstr warnings rx cl-extra help-mode cus-start etags fileloop
generator xref project dired-aux cus-edit pp cus-load wid-edit trace
sh-script smie executable dired dired-loaddefs cal-menu calendar
cal-loaddefs ange-ftp shell pcomplete comint ansi-color ring benchmark
time rmail rmail-loaddefs rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr
mail-utils face-remap finder-inf package browse-url url url-proxy
url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history url-cookie url-domsuf
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native-compile emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 178787 77633)
 (symbols 48 13676 66)
 (strings 32 42888 8138)
 (string-bytes 1 1386823)
 (vectors 16 26477)
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--000000000000e3abdc06128a6fbe
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"monospace">I show beyond all doubt how much =
Emacs Lisp needs, for its great &#39;native-compile&#39;,</font><div><span =
style=3D"font-family:monospace">&#39;declare&#39; and &#39;the&#39; for fix=
nums=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">and arrays.</span><d=
iv><font face=3D"monospace"><br>Why? 8X!<br><br>If every time you aref a ve=
ctor or increment a fixnum you have to check<br>things, you are going to wa=
ste a lot of cpu time. A programmer NEEDS to be<br>able to TELL the system =
things that should not be checked constantly. Imagine<br>how slow one would=
 be if he/she had to check that he/she was alive every<br>heart beat.<br><b=
r>I have attached two files, eratosthenese.el and eratosthenese.lisp, the<b=
r>first coded in Emacs Lisp and the second in Common Lisp.<br><br>In all th=
at follows, I am running on a $100 Lenovo Chromebook.<br><br>The Sieve of E=
ratosthenese is the second oldest algorithm I am aware of, the<br>oldest be=
ing gcd.<br><br>Consider this form:<br><br>(progn (emacs-lisp-native-compil=
e-and-load) (benchmark (build-sieve (expt 10 8)) 1))<br><br>First of all, &=
#39;benchmark&#39; has an obvious bug because it reports a time of<br>.0000=
05 seconds.<br><br>So I used the timer on my trusty $130 moto g pure phone.=
<br><br>After finding the file eratosthenese.el, the evaluation of the form=
 above<br>takes 69 seconds in Emacs.<br><br>After entering SBCL and loading=
 eratosthenese.lisp, (build-sieve (expt 10 8))<br>takes 8 seconds.<br><br>Q=
.E.D.<br><br>Bob<br><br>I attach stuff that I do not understand but that yo=
u may like.<br><br>From: bob &lt;bob@penguin&gt;<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:b=
ug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN</a><br>Subjec=
t: 28.2; Why Emacs Lisp needs declare and the for fixnums and arrays.<br>--=
text follows this line--<br><br><br><br><br>In GNU Emacs 28.2 (build 1, x86=
_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.37, cairo version 1.16.0)<br>=C2=A0of 2=
023-05-13, modified by Debian built on x86-ubc-01<br>Windowing system distr=
ibutor &#39;The X.Org Foundation&#39;, version 11.0.12014000<br>System Desc=
ription: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)<br><br>Configured using:<br>=C2=A0&=
#39;configure --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=3D/usr<br>=C2=A0--sharedsta=
tedir=3D/var/lib --libexecdir=3D/usr/libexec<br>=C2=A0--localstatedir=3D/va=
r/lib --infodir=3D/usr/share/info<br>=C2=A0--mandir=3D/usr/share/man --with=
-libsystemd --with-pop=3Dyes<br>=C2=A0--enable-locallisppath=3D/etc/emacs:/=
usr/local/share/emacs/28.2/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/=
share/emacs/28.2/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp<br>=C2=A0--with-sound=
=3Dalsa --without-gconf --with-mailutils<br>=C2=A0--with-native-compilation=
 --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=3D/usr<br>=C2=A0--sharedstatedir=3D/var/=
lib --libexecdir=3D/usr/libexec<br>=C2=A0--localstatedir=3D/var/lib --infod=
ir=3D/usr/share/info<br>=C2=A0--mandir=3D/usr/share/man --with-libsystemd -=
-with-pop=3Dyes<br>=C2=A0--enable-locallisppath=3D/etc/emacs:/usr/local/sha=
re/emacs/28.2/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/2=
8.2/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp<br>=C2=A0--with-sound=3Dalsa --wit=
hout-gconf --with-mailutils<br>=C2=A0--with-native-compilation --with-cairo=
 --with-x=3Dyes<br>=C2=A0--with-x-toolkit=3Dgtk3 --with-toolkit-scroll-bars=
 &#39;CFLAGS=3D-g -O2<br>=C2=A0-ffile-prefix-map=3D/build/emacs-mPr7Vr/emac=
s-28.2+1=3D.<br>=C2=A0-fstack-protector-strong -Wformat -Werror=3Dformat-se=
curity -Wall&#39;<br>=C2=A0&#39;CPPFLAGS=3D-Wdate-time -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=3D=
2&#39; LDFLAGS=3D-Wl,-z,relro&#39;<br><br>Configured features:<br>ACL CAIRO=
 DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG<br>JSON LCMS=
2 LIBOTF LIBSELINUX LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 M17N_FLT MODULES<br>NATIVE_COMP NOTI=
FY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND THREADS TIFF<br>TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BA=
RS X11 XDBE XIM XPM GTK3 ZLIB<br><br>Important settings:<br>=C2=A0 value of=
 $LANG: en_US.UTF-8<br>=C2=A0 locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix<br><br>Major=
 mode: Text<br><br>Minor modes in effect:<br>=C2=A0 shell-dirtrack-mode: t<=
br>=C2=A0 display-time-mode: t<br>=C2=A0 tooltip-mode: t<br>=C2=A0 global-e=
ldoc-mode: t<br>=C2=A0 show-paren-mode: t<br>=C2=A0 electric-indent-mode: t=
<br>=C2=A0 mouse-wheel-mode: t<br>=C2=A0 file-name-shadow-mode: t<br>=C2=A0=
 global-font-lock-mode: t<br>=C2=A0 font-lock-mode: t<br>=C2=A0 blink-curso=
r-mode: t<br>=C2=A0 auto-composition-mode: t<br>=C2=A0 auto-encryption-mode=
: t<br>=C2=A0 auto-compression-mode: t<br>=C2=A0 line-number-mode: t<br>=C2=
=A0 transient-mark-mode: t<br><br>Load-path shadows:<br>None found.<br><br>=
Features:<br>(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message rmc puny rfc822 mml mm=
l-sec epa<br>derived epg rfc6068 epg-config gnus-util mm-decode mm-bodies m=
m-encode<br>mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail thi=
ngatpt<br>dabbrev misearch multi-isearch help-fns radix-tree cl-print debug=
<br>backtrace find-func time-date compile text-property-search comp<br>comp=
-cstr warnings rx cl-extra help-mode cus-start etags fileloop<br>generator =
xref project dired-aux cus-edit pp cus-load wid-edit trace<br>sh-script smi=
e executable dired dired-loaddefs cal-menu calendar<br>cal-loaddefs ange-ft=
p shell pcomplete comint ansi-color ring benchmark<br>time rmail rmail-load=
defs rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr<br>mail-utils face-remap=
 finder-inf package browse-url url url-proxy<br>url-privacy url-expand url-=
methods url-history url-cookie url-domsuf<br>url-util mailcap url-handlers =
url-parse auth-source cl-seq eieio<br>eieio-core cl-macs eieio-loaddefs pas=
sword-cache json subr-x map<br>url-vars seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compi=
le cconv cl-loaddefs cl-lib<br>iso-transl tooltip eldoc paren electric uniq=
uify ediff-hook vc-hooks<br>lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel term/x-win x-=
win term/common-win x-dnd<br>tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe t=
abulated-list replace<br>newcomment text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register =
page tab-bar menu-bar<br>rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu timer select scroll-b=
ar mouse jit-lock<br>font-lock syntax font-core term/tty-colors frame minib=
uffer cl-generic<br>cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan t=
hai tai-viet lao<br>korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian =
slovak czech<br>european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite emoji-z=
wj charscript<br>charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abb=
rev obarray<br>cl-preloaded nadvice button loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp=
 files<br>window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pa=
ges<br>mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbi=
nd<br>inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting=
<br>cairo move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty make-network-process<br>na=
tive-compile emacs)<br><br>Memory information:<br>((conses 16 178787 77633)=
<br>=C2=A0(symbols 48 13676 66)<br>=C2=A0(strings 32 42888 8138)<br>=C2=A0(=
string-bytes 1 1386823)<br>=C2=A0(vectors 16 26477)<br>=C2=A0(vector-slots =
8 100493063 154471)<br>=C2=A0(floats 8 62 377)<br>=C2=A0(intervals 56 2423 =
424)<br>=C2=A0(buffers 992 31))</font><br></div></div></div>

--000000000000e3abdc06128a6fbe--

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Subject: bug#69480: Acknowledgement (Emacs Lisp needs, for its great
 'native-compile', 'declare' and 'the' for fixnums and arrays.)
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Subject: bug#69480: Emacs Lisp needs, for its great 'native-compile', 'declare' and 'the' for fixnums and arrays.
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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 (message from Robert Boyer on Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:40:14 -0600)
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> From: Robert Boyer <robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN>
> Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:40:14 -0600
> 
> Consider this form:
> 
> (progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark (build-sieve (expt 10 8)) 1))
> 
> First of all, 'benchmark' has an obvious bug because it reports a time of
> .000005 seconds.

You use benchmark incorrectly.  And you should use benchmark-run
instead, anyway.

> After finding the file eratosthenese.el, the evaluation of the form above
> takes 69 seconds in Emacs.
> 
> After entering SBCL and loading eratosthenese.lisp, (build-sieve (expt 10 8))
> takes 8 seconds.

It takes 16.7 sec on my system.

I see no bug here, native-compiled Emacs Lisp will never be able to
produce performance similar to SBCL, not the way native compilation is
implemented in Emacs.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#69480: Emacs Lisp needs, for its great 'native-compile', 'declare' and 'the' for fixnums and arrays.
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--000000000000753c7e06128b7a87
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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> You use benchmark incorrectly.

Huh?  Here is the documentation.

benchmark is an interactive native-compiled Lisp function in =E2=80=98bench=
mark.el=E2=80=99.

(benchmark REPETITIONS FORM)

Print the time taken for REPETITIONS executions of FORM.
Interactively, REPETITIONS is taken from the prefix arg, and
the command prompts for the form to benchmark.
For non-interactive use see also =E2=80=98benchmark-run=E2=80=99 and
=E2=80=98benchmark-run-compiled=E2=80=99.
FORM can also be a function in which case we measure the time it takes
to call it without any argument.

  Probably introduced at or before Emacs version 22.1.

 > And you should use benchmark-run instead, anyway.

Thanks for that.  I'll give it a try.

>  It takes 16.7 sec on my system.

All of my times come from using a $100 Lenovo Chromebook.  How much did
your machine
cost?

> Emacs Lisp will never be able to produce performance similar to SBCL, not
the way
> native compilation implemented in Emacs.

Wanna bet?  There are too many geniuses working on Emacs to let this chance
for 8X pass.

Thanks for your reply.  My message was inspired by something someone said
when I sent
in a much simpler demo of the same 8x point, saying that one needed to show
the difference  on
real code.  So I have done so, I hope everyone agrees. Who is more famous
than Eratosthenese?

Bob

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 2:11=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Robert Boyer <robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:40:14 -0600
> >
> > Consider this form:
> >
> > (progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark (build-sieve
> (expt 10 8)) 1))
> >
> > First of all, 'benchmark' has an obvious bug because it reports a time =
of
> > .000005 seconds.
>
> You use benchmark incorrectly.  And you should use benchmark-run
> instead, anyway.
>
> > After finding the file eratosthenese.el, the evaluation of the form abo=
ve
> > takes 69 seconds in Emacs.
> >
> > After entering SBCL and loading eratosthenese.lisp, (build-sieve (expt
> 10 8))
> > takes 8 seconds.
>
> It takes 16.7 sec on my system.
>
> I see no bug here, native-compiled Emacs Lisp will never be able to
> produce performance similar to SBCL, not the way native compilation is
> implemented in Emacs.
>

--000000000000753c7e06128b7a87
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt; You use benchmark incorrectly.=C2=
=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Huh?=C2=A0 Here is the documentation.</div=
><div><br></div>benchmark is an interactive native-compiled Lisp function i=
n =E2=80=98benchmark.el=E2=80=99.<br><br>(benchmark REPETITIONS FORM)<br><b=
r>Print the time taken for REPETITIONS executions of FORM.<br>Interactively=
, REPETITIONS is taken from the prefix arg, and<br>the command prompts for =
the form to benchmark.<br>For non-interactive use see also =E2=80=98benchma=
rk-run=E2=80=99 and<br>=E2=80=98benchmark-run-compiled=E2=80=99.<br>FORM ca=
n also be a function in which case we measure the time it takes<br>to call =
it without any argument.<br><br>=C2=A0 Probably introduced at or before Ema=
cs version 22.1.<br><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0&gt; And you should use bench=
mark-run instead, anyway.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for that.=C2=
=A0 I&#39;ll give it a try.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0 It takes 16=
.7 sec on my system.</div><div><br></div><div>All of my times come from usi=
ng a $100 Lenovo Chromebook.=C2=A0 How much did your machine</div><div>cost=
?</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; Emacs Lisp will never be able to produce pe=
rformance similar to SBCL, not the way=C2=A0</div><div>&gt; native compilat=
ion implemented in Emacs.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Wanna bet?=C2=A0 The=
re are too many geniuses working on Emacs to let this chance for 8X pass.</=
div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for your reply.=C2=A0 My message was inspire=
d by something someone said when I sent</div><div>in a much simpler demo of=
 the same 8x point, saying that one needed to show the difference=C2=A0 on<=
/div><div>real code.=C2=A0 So I have done so, I hope everyone agrees. Who i=
s more famous than Eratosthenese?</div><div><br></div><div>Bob</div><div><b=
r></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_attr">On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 2:11=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">&gt; From: Robert Boyer &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">robertstephenboyer@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:40:14 -0600<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Consider this form:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; (progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark (build-sieve (e=
xpt 10 8)) 1))<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; First of all, &#39;benchmark&#39; has an obvious bug because it report=
s a time of<br>
&gt; .000005 seconds.<br>
<br>
You use benchmark incorrectly.=C2=A0 And you should use benchmark-run<br>
instead, anyway.<br>
<br>
&gt; After finding the file eratosthenese.el, the evaluation of the form ab=
ove<br>
&gt; takes 69 seconds in Emacs.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; After entering SBCL and loading eratosthenese.lisp, (build-sieve (expt=
 10 8))<br>
&gt; takes 8 seconds.<br>
<br>
It takes 16.7 sec on my system.<br>
<br>
I see no bug here, native-compiled Emacs Lisp will never be able to<br>
produce performance similar to SBCL, not the way native compilation is<br>
implemented in Emacs.<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000753c7e06128b7a87--

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--000000000000616e1506128b9cbd
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benchmark-run-compiled reported the same sorry time to *Messages* on:

(progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark-run-compiled
(build-sieve (expt 10 8))))

(68.42455689 1 1.1884078129999995)

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 2:11=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Robert Boyer <robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:40:14 -0600
> >
> > Consider this form:
> >
> > (progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark (build-sieve
> (expt 10 8)) 1))
> >
> > First of all, 'benchmark' has an obvious bug because it reports a time =
of
> > .000005 seconds.
>
> You use benchmark incorrectly.  And you should use benchmark-run
> instead, anyway.
>
> > After finding the file eratosthenese.el, the evaluation of the form abo=
ve
> > takes 69 seconds in Emacs.
> >
> > After entering SBCL and loading eratosthenese.lisp, (build-sieve (expt
> 10 8))
> > takes 8 seconds.
>
> It takes 16.7 sec on my system.
>
> I see no bug here, native-compiled Emacs Lisp will never be able to
> produce performance similar to SBCL, not the way native compilation is
> implemented in Emacs.
>

--000000000000616e1506128b9cbd
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>benchmark-run-compiled reported the same sorry time t=
o *Messages* on:</div><div><br></div><div>(progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile=
-and-load) (benchmark-run-compiled (build-sieve (expt 10 8))))<br></div><di=
v><br></div>(68.42455689 1 1.1884078129999995)</div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 2:11=
=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">&=
gt; From: Robert Boyer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN" =
target=3D"_blank">robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:40:14 -0600<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Consider this form:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; (progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark (build-sieve (e=
xpt 10 8)) 1))<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; First of all, &#39;benchmark&#39; has an obvious bug because it report=
s a time of<br>
&gt; .000005 seconds.<br>
<br>
You use benchmark incorrectly.=C2=A0 And you should use benchmark-run<br>
instead, anyway.<br>
<br>
&gt; After finding the file eratosthenese.el, the evaluation of the form ab=
ove<br>
&gt; takes 69 seconds in Emacs.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; After entering SBCL and loading eratosthenese.lisp, (build-sieve (expt=
 10 8))<br>
&gt; takes 8 seconds.<br>
<br>
It takes 16.7 sec on my system.<br>
<br>
I see no bug here, native-compiled Emacs Lisp will never be able to<br>
produce performance similar to SBCL, not the way native compilation is<br>
implemented in Emacs.<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000616e1506128b9cbd--

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Robert Boyer <robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN> writes:

> Huh?  Here is the documentation.
>
> benchmark is an interactive native-compiled Lisp function in
> =E2=80=98benchmark.el=E2=80=99.
>
> (benchmark REPETITIONS FORM)
                         ^^^^

It's a _function_, Robert.  So you are passing the evaluation result,
not a form.

Michael.

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> From: Robert Boyer <robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN>
> Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 14:54:46 -0600
> Cc: 69480 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > You use benchmark incorrectly. 
> 
> Huh?  Here is the documentation.
> 
> benchmark is an interactive native-compiled Lisp function in ‘benchmark.el’.
> 
> (benchmark REPETITIONS FORM)
> 
> Print the time taken for REPETITIONS executions of FORM.
> Interactively, REPETITIONS is taken from the prefix arg, and
> the command prompts for the form to benchmark.
> For non-interactive use see also ‘benchmark-run’ and
> ‘benchmark-run-compiled’.
> FORM can also be a function in which case we measure the time it takes
> to call it without any argument.

Yes, and in your recipe you reversed the order of the arguments:

  (benchmark (build-sieve (expt 10 8)) 1)

> >  It takes 16.7 sec on my system.
> 
> All of my times come from using a $100 Lenovo Chromebook.  How much did your machine
> cost?

I gave my timing as another data point.  I have no way of measuring
the timing on your machine, obviously.

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 Content preview:  On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 22:10:27 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>
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 Content preview:  On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 22:10:27 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>
    From: Robert Boyer >> Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:40:14 -0600 >> >> Consider
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On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 22:10:27 +0200 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

>> From: Robert Boyer <robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:40:14 -0600
>>
>> Consider this form:
>>
>> (progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark (build-sieve (ex=
pt 10
>> 8)) 1))
>>
>> First of all, 'benchmark' has an obvious bug because it reports a time =
of
>> .000005 seconds.
>
> You use benchmark incorrectly.  And you should use benchmark-run
> instead, anyway.
>
>> After finding the file eratosthenese.el, the evaluation of the form abo=
ve
>> takes 69 seconds in Emacs.
>>
>> After entering SBCL and loading eratosthenese.lisp, (build-sieve (expt =
10 8))
>> takes 8 seconds.
>
> It takes 16.7 sec on my system.

I was curious to see how long it takes on my system, compared to the
byte-compiled and uncompiled files, and the results surprised me.
First, I visited the file eratosthenes.el, ran `eval-buffer' and then
`M-: (benchmark-run nil (build-sieve (expt 10 8)))', with this result:

(143.326808051 1 0.344846223)

Then I ran `M-: (progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load)
(benchmark-run nil (build-sieve (expt 10 8))))', with this result:

(37.457440511 1 0.36922945500000004)

The native compilation also produced a byte-compiled file
eratosthenes.elc, so I then loaded that file and again ran `M-:
(benchmark-run nil (build-sieve (expt 10 8)))', with this result:

(21.854069551000002 1 0.3595161699999999)

I was surprised that this was much faster than the run with native
compilation, but I thought perhaps this was due to the time spent
producing both the native and byte-compiled files (though more than 15
seconds for that seemed unlikely), so I ran `M-: (progn
(emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark-run nil (build-sieve
(expt 10 8))))' again, which just loaded the already native-compiled
file (and updated its timestamp), but the result was practically the
same as the first time:

(37.095767574 1 0.36986937500000017)

Why is the timing with native compilation so much slower than with byte
compilation?

Steve Berman

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Stephen Berman via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of
text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:

> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 22:10:27 +0200 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>>> From: Robert Boyer <robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN>
>>> Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:40:14 -0600
>>>
>>> Consider this form:
>>>
>>> (progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark (build-sieve (expt 10
>>> 8)) 1))
>>>
>>> First of all, 'benchmark' has an obvious bug because it reports a time of
>>> .000005 seconds.
>>
>> You use benchmark incorrectly.  And you should use benchmark-run
>> instead, anyway.
>>
>>> After finding the file eratosthenese.el, the evaluation of the form above
>>> takes 69 seconds in Emacs.
>>>
>>> After entering SBCL and loading eratosthenese.lisp, (build-sieve (expt 10 8))
>>> takes 8 seconds.
>>
>> It takes 16.7 sec on my system.
>
> I was curious to see how long it takes on my system, compared to the
> byte-compiled and uncompiled files, and the results surprised me.
> First, I visited the file eratosthenes.el, ran `eval-buffer' and then
> `M-: (benchmark-run nil (build-sieve (expt 10 8)))', with this result:
>
> (143.326808051 1 0.344846223)
>
> Then I ran `M-: (progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load)
> (benchmark-run nil (build-sieve (expt 10 8))))', with this result:
>
> (37.457440511 1 0.36922945500000004)
>
> The native compilation also produced a byte-compiled file
> eratosthenes.elc, so I then loaded that file and again ran `M-:
> (benchmark-run nil (build-sieve (expt 10 8)))', with this result:
>
> (21.854069551000002 1 0.3595161699999999)
>
> I was surprised that this was much faster than the run with native
> compilation, but I thought perhaps this was due to the time spent
> producing both the native and byte-compiled files (though more than 15
> seconds for that seemed unlikely), so I ran `M-: (progn
> (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark-run nil (build-sieve
> (expt 10 8))))' again, which just loaded the already native-compiled
> file (and updated its timestamp), but the result was practically the
> same as the first time:
>
> (37.095767574 1 0.36986937500000017)
>
> Why is the timing with native compilation so much slower than with byte
> compilation?

Because the file is not lexically scoped so we are not running
optimizations.

On my laptop I see:

11 secs byte compiled
18 secs native compiled

7 secs byte compiled with lexical scope
5 secs  native compiled with lexical scope.

Bests

  Andrea

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In-Reply-To: <87bk7yur6p.fsf@HIDDEN> (Stephen Berman via's message of "Fri,
 01 Mar 2024 12:28:30 +0100")
References: <CAP9n0TMfsKdJPKbu7fu1J98ZQWw8xwX+q=EX4F=XgQqhsv3zog@HIDDEN>
 <86edcvrpzg.fsf@HIDDEN> <87bk7yur6p.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2024 07:18:29 -0500
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Stephen Berman via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of
text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:

> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 22:10:27 +0200 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>>> From: Robert Boyer <robertstephenboyer@HIDDEN>
>>> Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:40:14 -0600
>>>
>>> Consider this form:
>>>
>>> (progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark (build-sieve (expt 10
>>> 8)) 1))
>>>
>>> First of all, 'benchmark' has an obvious bug because it reports a time of
>>> .000005 seconds.
>>
>> You use benchmark incorrectly.  And you should use benchmark-run
>> instead, anyway.
>>
>>> After finding the file eratosthenese.el, the evaluation of the form above
>>> takes 69 seconds in Emacs.
>>>
>>> After entering SBCL and loading eratosthenese.lisp, (build-sieve (expt 10 8))
>>> takes 8 seconds.
>>
>> It takes 16.7 sec on my system.
>
> I was curious to see how long it takes on my system, compared to the
> byte-compiled and uncompiled files, and the results surprised me.
> First, I visited the file eratosthenes.el, ran `eval-buffer' and then
> `M-: (benchmark-run nil (build-sieve (expt 10 8)))', with this result:
>
> (143.326808051 1 0.344846223)
>
> Then I ran `M-: (progn (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load)
> (benchmark-run nil (build-sieve (expt 10 8))))', with this result:
>
> (37.457440511 1 0.36922945500000004)
>
> The native compilation also produced a byte-compiled file
> eratosthenes.elc, so I then loaded that file and again ran `M-:
> (benchmark-run nil (build-sieve (expt 10 8)))', with this result:
>
> (21.854069551000002 1 0.3595161699999999)
>
> I was surprised that this was much faster than the run with native
> compilation, but I thought perhaps this was due to the time spent
> producing both the native and byte-compiled files (though more than 15
> seconds for that seemed unlikely), so I ran `M-: (progn
> (emacs-lisp-native-compile-and-load) (benchmark-run nil (build-sieve
> (expt 10 8))))' again, which just loaded the already native-compiled
> file (and updated its timestamp), but the result was practically the
> same as the first time:
>
> (37.095767574 1 0.36986937500000017)
>
> Why is the timing with native compilation so much slower than with byte
> compilation?

Because the file is not lexically scoped so we are not running
optimizations.

On my laptop I see:

11 secs byte compiled
18 secs native compiled

7 secs byte compiled with lexical scope
5 secs  native compiled with lexical scope.

Bests

  Andrea

Last modified: Fri, 1 Mar 2024 12:30:02 UTC

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