GNU logs - #74137, boring messages

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Subject: [bug#74137] [PATCH] gnu: Add emacs-vi-tilde-fringe.
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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 14:59:36 +0100
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* gnu/packages/emacs-xyz.scm (emacs-vi-tilde-fringe): New variable.

Change-Id: Ia7306c69c1c9a8b967ce11f5e8ba70c5fe40ff1d
---
 gnu/packages/emacs-xyz.scm | 22 ++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 22 insertions(+)

diff --git a/gnu/packages/emacs-xyz.scm b/gnu/packages/emacs-xyz.scm
index 488b4cb5d7..b03fd56585 100644
--- a/gnu/packages/emacs-xyz.scm
+++ b/gnu/packages/emacs-xyz.scm
@@ -7072,6 +7072,28 @@ (define-public emacs-fringe-helper
 representation.")
       (license license:gpl2+))))

+(define-public emacs-vi-tilde-fringe
+  (let ((commit "f1597a8d54535bb1d84b442577b2024e6f910308")
+        (revision "0"))
+    (package
+      (name "emacs-vi-tilde-fringe")
+      (version (git-version "1.0" revision commit))
+      (source
+       (origin
+         (method git-fetch)
+         (uri (git-reference
+               (url "https://github.com/syl20bnr/vi-tilde-fringe")
+               (commit commit)))
+         (file-name (git-file-name name version))
+         (sha256
+          (base32 "0wdm8k49zl6i6wnh7vjkswdh5m9lix56jv37xvc90inipwgs402z"))))
+      (build-system emacs-build-system)
+      (home-page "https://github.com/syl20bnr/vi-tilde-fringe")
+      (synopsis "Display tildes on empty lines in the Emacs fringe a la Vi")
+      (description
+       "Display tildes on empty lines in the Emacs fringe a la Vi.")
+      (license license:gpl3+))))
+
 (define-public emacs-git-gutter
   (package
     (name "emacs-git-gutter")

base-commit: 6e50b0c56a8cc767bd3acb26638f78c450bde718
-- 
2.46.0

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To: Rostislav Svoboda <rostislav.svoboda@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#74137: Acknowledgement ([PATCH] gnu: Add emacs-vi-tilde-fringe.)
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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 14:01:03 +0000

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Message sent to guix-patches@HIDDEN:

Subject: [bug#74137] [PATCH] gnu: Add emacs-vi-tilde-fringe.
Resent-From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@HIDDEN>
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From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@HIDDEN>
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 (Rostislav Svoboda's message of "Thu, 31 Oct 2024 14:59:36 +0100")
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Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2024 15:31:29 +0100
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Hello,

Rostislav Svoboda <rostislav.svoboda@HIDDEN> writes:

> * gnu/packages/emacs-xyz.scm (emacs-vi-tilde-fringe): New variable.

Thank you.

> +(define-public emacs-vi-tilde-fringe
> +  (let ((commit "f1597a8d54535bb1d84b442577b2024e6f910308")
> +        (revision "0"))
> +    (package
> +      (name "emacs-vi-tilde-fringe")
> +      (version (git-version "1.0" revision commit))

I think you can use (version "1.0") and ignore revision. There are no
functionnal differences between the initial 1.0 release and the commit
you point to.

> +      (source
> +       (origin
> +         (method git-fetch)
> +         (uri (git-reference
> +               (url "https://github.com/syl20bnr/vi-tilde-fringe")
> +               (commit commit)))
> +         (file-name (git-file-name name version))
> +         (sha256
> +          (base32 "0wdm8k49zl6i6wnh7vjkswdh5m9lix56jv37xvc90inipwgs402z"))))
> +      (build-system emacs-build-system)
> +      (home-page "https://github.com/syl20bnr/vi-tilde-fringe")
> +      (synopsis "Display tildes on empty lines in the Emacs fringe a la Vi")
> +      (description
> +       "Display tildes on empty lines in the Emacs fringe a la Vi.")

The description should consist of complete sentences only.

Could you send an updated patch?

Regards,
-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

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From: Rostislav Svoboda <rostislav.svoboda@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2024 15:41:54 +0100
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--0000000000001571e40625daf2f3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hello Nicolas,

> I think you can use (version "1.0") and ignore revision. There are no
> functionnal differences between the initial 1.0 release and the commit
> you point to.

???
What do you mean by "the initial 1.0 release"? I see no release tag in the
repository which consists of just 3 commits anyway.

Cheers
Bost

$ git clone https://github.com/syl20bnr/vi-tilde-fringe && cd
vi-tilde-fringe
...
$ git log
commit f1597a8d54535bb1d84b442577b2024e6f910308 (HEAD -> master,
origin/master, origin/HEAD)
Author: syl20bnr <sylvain.benner@HIDDEN>
Date:   Mon Dec 29 21:55:25 2014 -0500

    Add MELPA badge

commit e6e15638e8c45a5e68d0874d5d8c9a46c4f38a54
Author: syl20bnr <sylvain.benner@HIDDEN>
Date:   Mon Oct 27 22:40:57 2014 -0400

    vi-tilde-fringe.el

commit ef3b2c1ff9d5737b873bb49370e869d54e5e70d7
Author: Sylvain Benner <sylvain.benner@HIDDEN>
Date:   Mon Oct 27 21:36:28 2014 -0400

    Initial commit

--0000000000001571e40625daf2f3
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello Nicolas,<br><br>&gt; I think you can use (version &q=
uot;1.0&quot;) and ignore revision. There are no<br>&gt; functionnal differ=
ences between the initial 1.0 release and the commit<br>&gt; you point to.<=
br><br><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif" class=3D"gmail_default">=
???<br>What do you mean by &quot;the initial 1.0 release&quot;? I see no re=
lease tag in the repository which consists of just 3 commits anyway.<br><br=
></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif" class=3D"gmail_default">=
Cheers</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif" class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult">Bost<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif" class=3D"gma=
il_default"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif" class=3D"=
gmail_default">$ git clone <a href=3D"https://github.com/syl20bnr/vi-tilde-=
fringe">https://github.com/syl20bnr/vi-tilde-fringe</a> &amp;&amp; cd vi-ti=
lde-fringe<br>...<br>$ git log<br>commit f1597a8d54535bb1d84b442577b2024e6f=
910308 (HEAD -&gt; master, origin/master, origin/HEAD)<br>Author: syl20bnr =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sylvain.benner@HIDDEN">sylvain.benner@HIDDEN</a=
>&gt;<br>Date: =C2=A0 Mon Dec 29 21:55:25 2014 -0500<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A=
dd MELPA badge<br><br>commit e6e15638e8c45a5e68d0874d5d8c9a46c4f38a54<br>Au=
thor: syl20bnr &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sylvain.benner@HIDDEN">sylvain.benn=
er@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>Date: =C2=A0 Mon Oct 27 22:40:57 2014 -0400<br><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 vi-tilde-fringe.el<br><br>commit ef3b2c1ff9d5737b873bb49370e8=
69d54e5e70d7<br>Author: Sylvain Benner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sylvain.benner=
@gmail.com">sylvain.benner@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>Date: =C2=A0 Mon Oct 27 21:=
36:28 2014 -0400<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Initial commit<br></div><br></div>

--0000000000001571e40625daf2f3--

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Rostislav Svoboda <rostislav.svoboda@HIDDEN> writes:

> What do you mean by "the initial 1.0 release"? I see no release tag in the
> repository which consists of just 3 commits anyway.

You're pointing to the following commit:

> commit f1597a8d54535bb1d84b442577b2024e6f910308 (HEAD -> master,
> origin/master, origin/HEAD)
> Author: syl20bnr <sylvain.benner@HIDDEN>
> Date:   Mon Dec 29 21:55:25 2014 -0500
>
>     Add MELPA badge

It has no functional difference with the following, which specifies Vi
Tilde Fringe version to 1.0 through it "Version:" keyword:

> commit e6e15638e8c45a5e68d0874d5d8c9a46c4f38a54
> Author: syl20bnr <sylvain.benner@HIDDEN>
> Date:   Mon Oct 27 22:40:57 2014 -0400
>
>     vi-tilde-fringe.el

Therefore, I suggest to keep using the commit you refer to (f1597...),
but mark it as version 1.0 instead of an obscure 1.0-1.f1597a8.

HTH,

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From: Rostislav Svoboda <rostislav.svoboda@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2024 16:51:36 +0100
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Hello,

> Therefore, I suggest to keep using the commit you refer to (f1597...),
> but mark it as version 1.0 instead of an obscure 1.0-1.f1597a8.

Did you mean 1.0-0.f1597a8?

Many Emacs packages have arbitrary version numbers like 0.1, 1.0,
0.07, 0.3.0, 20241019.2151, etc., or sometimes no version at all.
(Believe me, I=E2=80=99ve seen it all.) The only meaningful and reliable pa=
rt
is actually just the commit hash, like f1597a8.

So, the 1.0 is already part of the version string, and the 0. is yet
another piece of arbitrary, unreliable information added by us and our
conventions this time.

Cheers
Bost

Message sent to guix-patches@HIDDEN:

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Rostislav Svoboda <rostislav.svoboda@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Therefore, I suggest to keep using the commit you refer to (f1597...),
>> but mark it as version 1.0 instead of an obscure 1.0-1.f1597a8.
>
> Did you mean 1.0-0.f1597a8?

Yes.

> Many Emacs packages have arbitrary version numbers like 0.1, 1.0,
> 0.07, 0.3.0, 20241019.2151, etc., or sometimes no version at all.
> (Believe me, I=E2=80=99ve seen it all.) The only meaningful and reliable =
part
> is actually just the commit hash, like f1597a8.
>
> So, the 1.0 is already part of the version string, and the 0. is yet
> another piece of arbitrary, unreliable information added by us and our
> conventions this time.

We use revision and commits to distinguish versions from plain ones, to
say : "be careful, we didn't package the exact 1.0 release". In this
particular case, the "-0.f1597a8" suffix in the version field would
bring no valuable information: we're packaging the exact 1.0 release.

Of course, you need to refer to the commit hash in the package
definition, since upstream didn't tag its initial release. I'm
advocating for removing that information from the version field only.
We're already doing this for projects that do not tag releases. See,
e.g., `emacs-inspector'.

Regards,

Message sent to guix-patches@HIDDEN:

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Hello Nicolas,

> We use revision and commits to distinguish versions from plain ones, to
> say : "be careful, we didn't package the exact 1.0 release".

This is information no one can reliably depend on, as there's no
mechanism to guarantee what you're suggesting.

> I'm advocating for removing that information from the version field only.
> We're already doing this for projects that do not tag releases. See, e.g.,
> `emacs-inspector'.

If you want to be *sure* that emacs-inspector includes no
(modify-phases ...), you'll need to check its definition anyway.
There's no point in hiding the commit hash.

On the contrary, the commit hash is quite useful. It immediately and
reliably indicates which commit was used to build a package.

This information is particularly helpful when performing a git bisect,
manually inspecting the /gnu/store, and similar tasks.

Cheers,
Bost

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In-Reply-To: <CAEtmmexz6ic5S24jjsjGd4S14bqdoMm-RKf3QXfJobSSFLURrw@HIDDEN>
 (Rostislav Svoboda's message of "Fri, 1 Nov 2024 21:23:30 +0100")
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Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2024 23:21:34 +0100
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Hello,

Rostislav Svoboda <rostislav.svoboda@HIDDEN> writes:

>> We use revision and commits to distinguish versions from plain ones, to
>> say : "be careful, we didn't package the exact 1.0 release".
>
> This is information no one can reliably depend on, as there's no
> mechanism to guarantee what you're suggesting.
>
>> I'm advocating for removing that information from the version field only.
>> We're already doing this for projects that do not tag releases. See, e.g.,
>> `emacs-inspector'.
>
> If you want to be *sure* that emacs-inspector includes no
> (modify-phases ...), you'll need to check its definition anyway.
> There's no point in hiding the commit hash.
>
> On the contrary, the commit hash is quite useful. It immediately and
> reliably indicates which commit was used to build a package.
>
> This information is particularly helpful when performing a git bisect,
> manually inspecting the /gnu/store, and similar tasks.

AFAICT, this is not what is done in Guix. Usually versions follow
upstream tags, and revisions+commits are the exception, not the rule.

You seem to have a divergent opinion on the subject. That's fair, but
I think we're at a dead end now. Since I don't want to block nor delay
this patch, I'll let others proceed with the review.

Regards,

Message sent to guix-patches@HIDDEN:

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Hi Nicolas, Rostislav,

This is a difficult situation because of upstream, but I mostly=20
agree with Nicolas.  I think the most reasonable path forward is=20
to package commit e6e15638e8c45a5e68d0874d5d8c9a46c4f38a54 and=20
label it version 1.0.  Since the final commit doesn=E2=80=99t change the=20
package functionality, I don=E2=80=99t think it makes sense to package it=20
and have a snapshot version.  The situation would be different if=20
upstream was better about releases, or the change had a functional=20
impact.

An alternate option would be to package the latest commit, but=20
match the MELPA snapshot version[1] instead of "1.0".  While I=20
dislike that this version doesn=E2=80=99t appear anywhere in the source or=
=20
repo, it=E2=80=99s likely to be the one non-Guix users (or those using=20
Guix, but using package.el / straight.el / whatever to manage=20
their Emacs packages) will recognize.

Thanks,
  -- Ian

[1]: https://melpa.org/#/vi-tilde-fringe

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Am Sonntag, dem 09.03.2025 um 11:44 -0700 schrieb Ian Eure:
> Since the final commit doesn=E2=80=99t change the package functionality, =
I
> don=E2=80=99t think it makes sense to package it and have a snapshot vers=
ion.
I respectfully disagree; I think we should use git-version whenever the
commit field of a package refers to a raw commit, and if I read your
mail correctly, I do think we should just package the commit you
referenced as 1.0-0-e6e15638 (I may have taken too many or too few
chars of the commit here =E2=80=93 ah well).

Cheers

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> I do think we should just package the commit you referenced as 1.0-0-e6e1=
5638 (I may have taken too many or too few chars of the commit here =E2=80=
=93 ah well).

It's perfectly clear to any human that the latest commit f1597a8d
contains just noise. However, tools like guix import or guix refresh
lack this insight and would therefore indicate the package as outdated
if we use e6e15638. Such an indication would offer no practical
benefit.

Moreover, using the widely adopted MELPA commit (f1597a8d) ensures
consistency with the majority of users' Emacs configurations, whereas
diverging from it by using e6e15638 would introduce unnecessary
friction.

Cheers,
Bost

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Hello,

Let's continue the general discussion under a different subject:
Commit hashes in the version-string.

> I think we should use git-version whenever the commit field of a package refers to a raw commit

IMO, the git commit hash should always be part of the package version
when the source code is managed by git (which applies to the majority
of the ~30k packages Guix currently offers).

The commit hash is the only reliable piece of information specifying
exactly what code is being packaged. While tagging and versioning
policies usually work well for large, popular projects, smaller
projects - like vi-tilde-fringe - often have inconsistent, unclear, or
absent versioning policies. In the worst case, maintainers may even
move or delete tags after we've packaged the project, causing
unexpected hash mismatches in guix hash.

Including the commit hash directly in the package version addresses
these ambiguities, providing clarity and reliability regardless of
external tagging practices.

I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on this.

Cheers,
Bost

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 Content preview:  Hi, Euh, when Reviewing the Work of Others [1], it appears
    to me a case of =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9Cspending?= time proportional to the stakes(1)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= where (1)
    reads: (1) The tendency to discuss minute details at length is often referred
    to as =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9Cbikeshedding=E2=80=9D,?= where much time is spent discussing each =?UTF-8?Q?one=E2=80=99s?=
    preference for the color of the shed at the expense o [...] 
 
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Hi,

Euh, when Reviewing the Work of Others [1], it appears to me a case of
=E2=80=9Cspending time proportional to the stakes(1)=E2=80=9D where (1) rea=
ds:

        (1) The tendency to discuss minute details at length is often
        referred to as =E2=80=9Cbikeshedding=E2=80=9D, where much time is s=
pent
        discussing each one=E2=80=99s preference for the color of the shed =
at
        the expense of progress made on the project to keep bikes dry.

Because the package at hand is 11 years old with just 3 commits and less
than one hundred of Emacs Lisp line of code.  There is more characters
in this message than in the source code itself. ;-)

Concretely, we are speaking about alternative (A) or (B), right?

      (define-public emacs-vi-tilde-fringe
        (let ((commit "f1597a8d54535bb1d84b442577b2024e6f910308")
              (revision "0"))
          (package
            (name "emacs-vi-tilde-fringe")
  (A)       (version (git-version "1.0" revision commit))
  (B)       (version "1.0")
            (source
             (origin
               (method git-fetch)
               (uri (git-reference
                     (url "https://github.com/syl20bnr/vi-tilde-fringe")
                     (commit commit)))
               (file-name (git-file-name name version))

And that, concretely, changes nothing because no one expect to have
another version after 11 years of inactivity. :-)

My own preference is about (A) because it appears to me more consistent
with the rest.  Somehow, my understanding is the rule of thumb: use this
=E2=80=99revision=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=99commit=E2=80=99 when there is no Gi=
t-based tag (release).  And
somehow, a kind of advertisement.  At least, as a user that=E2=80=99s how I
consider package with version ending with short commit hash: it=E2=80=99s n=
ot an
official Git-based tag.

Nicolas, Ian, any strong objection with option (A)?

Cheers,
simon

1: https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Reviewing-the-Work-of-Oth=
ers

Last modified: Mon, 10 Mar 2025 20:00:02 UTC

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