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That's not confusion from the doc. It's from the function that the doc describes. What's unexpected and possibly confusing is that the function _does_ apply that "notion" to symbols, as well as strings. Which is why it's important for the function's doc to tell you about this oddity. Exactly the same reason that the doc for `string=3D' tells you about it. But for=20 `string-empty-p' it's even more important, since the _point_ of that predicate is to test for emptiness (and the predicate's name suggests it's about testing only strings). The current doc gives the impression that for a symbol (as for other non-strings) the predicate would raise an error.=20
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 76055) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Feb 2025 12:38:49 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 18 07:38:48 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56094 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tkMsC-00060Z-Hx for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Feb 2025 07:38:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52060) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tkMs9-000600-Og for 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Feb 2025 07:38:46 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tkMs3-0000F8-OS; Tue, 18 Feb 2025 07:38:39 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=LsOCg4sxHeFRbTIXEvZYzW9J9SgnhWc48/KbXUJHEGA=; b=MDl4JoW08KWY 6sEtTp5VQcyjJB5zF40G09dU8bLAcAIk2bbXcYckHCmGznbyI8GXP6ZA3Mo9CSo+wN8GnSDcyF21T Bw7j6INHrVEBWJctt3EjAQeAfsS4m+YYwBWvK9xas5CbS5NEs/6yvK2cXpU0mi3jNWeTdz0fOix8H JSW/yac+Xu8/FFQlipjPdRk1rJRxqtbgML74GzcOEdO3fI+oqiVvPznaKzLVlhBc6kMtDn4F6PpXg DGXMJvOkjB1dapi3Les0ID+fMz+ydMmUsTOVErs57oi8R+8qOUyOxAWXZFd5efLM9VIPV5lahQ/xV 8PiG3pMxBB2Y7oAC1Eog2g==; Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 14:38:32 +0200 Message-Id: <86jz9na0mv.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB5232017423360C05F3FCE34DF3FB2@HIDDEN> (message from Drew Adams on Mon, 17 Feb 2025 21:15:01 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmn3k=g=XtJ=cWHL-iUp=dRjxxh68NAeCoa9E=2L1CNCpA@HIDDEN> <86pljv7arn.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB52323A76588D2FA8722FB659F3F62@HIDDEN> <86r04a5ikx.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232D714BFD6465EA5734E4FF3F32@HIDDEN> <868qqf1slx.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232017423360C05F3FCE34DF3FB2@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > CC: "stefankangas@HIDDEN" <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, > "76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" > <76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 21:15:01 +0000 > > > Doesn't sound like a reason good enough to say potentially confusing > > things in a doc string. > > > > So no, still no justification and still no other opinions except > > yours. > > What's "potentially confusing" about the doc > saying exactly what the doc of `string=' says > about this oddity (corner case)? The fact that the "empty string" notion is applied to symbols, of course.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Subject: [External] : Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p >=20 > > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > > CC: "stefankangas@HIDDEN" <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, > > "76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" > > <76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> > > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2025 03:57:36 +0000 > > > > > > (symbol-name '##) ; =3D> "" > > > > > > And where did you see such symbols used in Emacs? > > > > Serendipitously, just came across this use of it today: > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tarsius/llama__;!!ACWV5N9M= 2 > RV99hQ!MeDkTcQ8UVc95uTLaVLNrICJSfOp9SC_VeY2u0xGgWRk5ctKV- > 7CcA6Ydi4pmdXAGdk-Smfp1vY$ > > > > Linked from this Reddit thread: > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/1il4i= t > l/what_does_the_double_pound_mean_in_emacs_lisp/?ref=3Dshare&ref_source= =3Dlink > __;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!MeDkTcQ8UVc95uTLaVLNrICJSfOp9SC_VeY2u0xGgWRk5ctKV- > 7CcA6Ydi4pmdXAGdk-Mp-7kQk$ >=20 > Doesn't sound like a reason good enough to say potentially confusing > things in a doc string. >=20 > So no, still no justification and still no other opinions except > yours. What's "potentially confusing" about the doc saying exactly what the doc of `string=3D' says about this oddity (corner case)? It's all the _more_ important for `string-empty-p' to mention it, as that predicate is all about the thing being empty! Again: What's not helpful is to name the function as being about strings, and document it only as being about strings. `string=3D' doc doesn't have that doc bug, at least. Common Lisp and previous Lisps have symbols with empty names. This is "normal" for Lisps. What could be argued is not so normal is Elisp's use of string functions that act also on symbols (by way of their `symbol-name's). That might be a bit odd, but it's what you (Emacs maintainers) decided to do. That's OK - except that it's a gotcha (unexpected). The doc should call it out. Silently providing unexpected behavior isn't helpful.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 76055) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2025 07:44:52 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 09 02:44:51 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42874 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1th1zn-0007s4-K5 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2025 02:44:51 -0500 Received: from relay8-d.mail.gandi.net ([2001:4b98:dc4:8::228]:42055) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <juri@HIDDEN>) id 1th1zi-0007rX-M7 for 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2025 02:44:49 -0500 Received: by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4776C433F6; Sun, 9 Feb 2025 07:44:37 +0000 (UTC) From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB5232D714BFD6465EA5734E4FF3F32@HIDDEN> Organization: LINKOV.NET References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmn3k=g=XtJ=cWHL-iUp=dRjxxh68NAeCoa9E=2L1CNCpA@HIDDEN> <86pljv7arn.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB52323A76588D2FA8722FB659F3F62@HIDDEN> <86r04a5ikx.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232D714BFD6465EA5734E4FF3F32@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2025 09:38:17 +0200 Message-ID: <87y0yf7fie.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/31.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-GND-State: clean X-GND-Score: -100 X-GND-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgdefgeehjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfitefpfffkpdcuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedtudenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephffvvefujghofhffkfgfgggtsehttdertddtredtnecuhfhrohhmpefluhhrihcunfhinhhkohhvuceojhhurhhisehlihhnkhhovhdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfeuieetfffgvdeggfejffdujeevudevtefggeetveeugeeutdefuefgkeefheetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdpjhhulhhirghlrghnghdrohhrghenucfkphepledurdduvdelrdeliedrledtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehinhgvthepledurdduvdelrdeliedrledtpdhhvghlohepmhgrihhlrdhgrghnughirdhnvghtpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepjhhurhhisehlihhnkhhovhdrnhgvthdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepgedprhgtphhtthhopehsthgvfhgrnhhkrghnghgrshesghhmrghilhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopeejiedtheehseguvggssghughhsrdhgnhhurdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepvghlihiisehgnhhurdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepughrvgifrdgruggrmhhssehorhgrtghlvgdrtghomh X-GND-Sasl: juri@HIDDEN X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: "76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, "stefankangas@HIDDEN" <stefankangas@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Serendipitously, just came across this use of it today: > > https://github.com/tarsius/llama Its syntax (##foo %1 &*) looks like dot syntax for vectorizing functions in Julia: https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/functions/#man-vectorized where `foo.(x)` applies `foo` to each element of x. PS: this is not to be confused with `foo.(x)` in Elixir that simply calls an anonymous function by value, i.e. that corresponds just to `(funcall foo x)`.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 76055) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2025 07:32:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 09 02:32:10 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42838 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1th1nW-0007KN-E0 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2025 02:32:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38862) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1th1nT-0007Jy-54 for 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2025 02:32:08 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1th1nN-0006Gx-7g; Sun, 09 Feb 2025 02:32:01 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=xGLF90JvpEPvYRKmG97vMouQ7DGlVXyJaAwtI0gJxkE=; b=W00XN2RpbAqJ lG7nvwZzpPMOhZrYZ3SN86CLgIdTu/x5/iX2mrGkoNRDxk7bANF4xxyLrBLj8yVjMSKad2UCGGgVw Pct/k13FTlrwp8IExzyvomWWzDMFssFZa35tLhTBXDYfoe5MCga4DhsmyozGaxE0JR+sNjK43fkDt qenAUvHT/p/eYZxMEiIyXDmJBoZSpJavCFNo7xpdAUKwm9sEtgzdkahkcGiGj/awvE2yy6yUD0Izf 4HajUpRAcyoBne74OhMY+BA6ieOPtGAy5d481L/CO+PdGAF2HRyBQGxIKlDD0160xcSIfoarLEkA9 FyZVcwdLV8o9fba20x/OKQ==; Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2025 09:31:54 +0200 Message-Id: <868qqf1slx.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB5232D714BFD6465EA5734E4FF3F32@HIDDEN> (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 9 Feb 2025 03:57:36 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmn3k=g=XtJ=cWHL-iUp=dRjxxh68NAeCoa9E=2L1CNCpA@HIDDEN> <86pljv7arn.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB52323A76588D2FA8722FB659F3F62@HIDDEN> <86r04a5ikx.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232D714BFD6465EA5734E4FF3F32@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > CC: "stefankangas@HIDDEN" <stefankangas@HIDDEN>, > "76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" > <76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2025 03:57:36 +0000 > > > > (symbol-name '##) ; => "" > > > > And where did you see such symbols used in Emacs? > > Serendipitously, just came across this use of it today: > > https://github.com/tarsius/llama > > Linked from this Reddit thread: > > https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/1il4itl/what_does_the_double_pound_mean_in_emacs_lisp/?ref=share&ref_source=link Doesn't sound like a reason good enough to say potentially confusing things in a doc string. So no, still no justification and still no other opinions except yours.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8596e7fe-cc87-40b4-ff92-08dd48bde3bf X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Feb 2025 03:57:36.3470 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: fWwPnwZn8Wa7KINAgPFqJLFlqvRSZfKYEkVncTLjyRHMwLR9uzjAii2MeR6G37oUA++Nsp9Ig3NoMUb1dUAf8Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY8PR10MB6491 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1057,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.68.34 definitions=2025-02-09_01,2025-02-07_03,2024-11-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=976 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2501170000 definitions=main-2502090031 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 9lVyfnT5fYvANu58MX2uWCQoWdSkPZ30 X-Proofpoint-GUID: 9lVyfnT5fYvANu58MX2uWCQoWdSkPZ30 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: "76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, "stefankangas@HIDDEN" <stefankangas@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > > However, while extending to strings comparison to symbol names could > > > make sense, telling whether a string is empty (the subject of this > > > report) is NOT: what symbol could have an empty name? > > > > That's easy. > > > > (intern "") gives you such a symbol. > > It's written ## (dunno why). > > > > (symbol-name '##) ; =3D> "" >=20 > And where did you see such symbols used in Emacs? Serendipitously, just came across this use of it today: https://github.com/tarsius/llama Linked from this Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/1il4itl/what_does_the_double_pound_= mean_in_emacs_lisp/?ref=3Dshare&ref_source=3Dlink
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 76055) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2025 17:15:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 07 12:15:34 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36260 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tgRwz-0002TF-W7 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 12:15:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47228) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tgRwx-0002Sz-Cn for 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 12:15:31 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tgRwr-0004o8-Jo; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 12:15:25 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=SroIrazyUkRjWUCbbRn86ndeNtoegF3QTWPgEgpNf7c=; b=XXMTUpvnzE9M eSiAaP/ILSEZq8G72lucjWdttDJStyFb3VVn5XIPAoBTYokZU0t/7AWz6vI89Ipa9AEfmAFMNfiCp tdYjnn4cDjBiS82vgw+zjTtVftO5HXqMFuWX9rAbNZDV0crbGvso2ybx3df3Ag0U9bIRiRrLcvw8K nWzktcRutPOzWVDYwrFNNHuRg5+AiN7BZUFVwuEsfCfIoivtxwhjRFnTnokk3Roso5j3ZLpewD9c0 CdMBfxEXq5iCixUNhHseryXWbM/5/ahToRMadrW0O1PNiB3cOA5NZs8hM8Cu/qI+jb/W2J0xQqgGY aBVIp3r5VnuXXE19gbCzYg==; Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2025 19:15:07 +0200 Message-Id: <86pljt4qxw.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB523298BFDD98CEB9540C8476F3F12@HIDDEN> (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 7 Feb 2025 16:49:48 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <86zfj08uaa.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB52327DE3E8FB1ADDBE35E6D4F3F72@HIDDEN> <8634gs87zt.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232713EFE4112D730EE2AE5F3F72@HIDDEN> <86r04b7b0f.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232AC206E35197070A5DB2CF3F62@HIDDEN> <86seoq5ily.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB523298BFDD98CEB9540C8476F3F12@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > CC: "76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2025 16:49:48 +0000 > > > > Please fix the doc for `string-empty-p', at least. > > > > As I said, I don't think it's needed. > > Did you? Yes, I did. > Did you say why? Yes, I did.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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Did you? Did you say why? Do you think someone will suppose that symbols can be tested by it for an empty symbol name? You, who at the same time questions the utility of a symbol with an empty name?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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=3D> "" >=20 > And where did you see such symbols used in Emacs? I didn't say I see uses in Emacs (whatever that might mean). I haven't looked for them. Who introduced the symbol `##' into Elisp? I have no idea. But yes, symbols with empty-string names have long existed in Lisps. There's no reason they wouldn't or shouldn't. Do you know of a reason? If so, do you propose to change Elisp to remove their possibility? _I_ didn't design `string=3D' or `string-empty-p' to accept symbols. I'm OK with that, provided it's documented. As I said, other reasonable definitions could do either of the following: * Return nil for any arg that's not a string. * Raise an error for any arg that's not a string. But neither is the choice that Emacs made. What's not helpful is to name the function as being about strings, and document it only as being about strings. `string=3D' doc doesn't have that doc bug, at least.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2025 09:11:58 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 07 04:11:58 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32812 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tgKOz-0007Rk-NW for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 04:11:57 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:50506) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1tgKOw-0007RN-IB for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 04:11:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1tgKOp-0005Nu-Jz for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 04:11:47 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1tgKOn-0007AX-05 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 04:11:47 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>) id 1tgKOj-00096r-Sb for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 10:11:41 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: Rudolf Schlatte <rudi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2025 10:11:32 +0100 Message-ID: <m2jza2nmpn.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmn3k=g=XtJ=cWHL-iUp=dRjxxh68NAeCoa9E=2L1CNCpA@HIDDEN> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:0c9fvEkjSxY9wHTRFqkumIhKk5E= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.07, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes: > > FWIW, I'm not suggesting any changes, but I admit that I never really > understood this design decision. [...] > And in SBCL: > > * (string= "foo" 'foo) > NIL Common Lisp has the concept of "designators" (https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_dae.htm). The arguments of string= are documented to be "string designators" (https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#string_designator). I'm not suggesting that Emacs Lisp should introduce designators, just trying to clear up what SBCL is doing here.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 76055) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2025 07:18:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 07 02:18:15 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60658 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tgIcw-0001kG-Td for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 02:18:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54134) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tgIcv-0001k1-D9 for 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 02:18:13 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tgIcp-0006pM-Op; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 02:18:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=EADb9vL4WhAom4OJCbnHmGz2n7QWvpLLhFl6SdPVapk=; b=OsM2+wCta1Q6 5tXqceCU9lmrlSvLZNXkf5EIbKx1sXB1HwcRzo/+N9d83kDcUM2QXsjX1hfZzZ0zznWYghWq9tpMj o4iB4Y+VSlhXWFdRRj/0E5Y9ivrHlEYB49pOHmMKsp3XwJx/Evz5nEAnveDSo1NuIvwHA4jup1yOG EIaXwBtWVo1+lABWw+8lDNug0wWt6+1TUvLIadw9SN6qNl/YxDfgI5qtQU8PdlPwfr3phW5ZVsGY7 7TkUf9SvFsUKxppJpqtXgG73VatI110IRY77N7vnfcoUHobuh1RjGQUPVdnUp0xTEXifDb5GIpTMi nTgsGAs8ds/4oALwSgjeAQ==; Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2025 09:18:06 +0200 Message-Id: <86r04a5ikx.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB52323A76588D2FA8722FB659F3F62@HIDDEN> (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 6 Feb 2025 20:19:03 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmn3k=g=XtJ=cWHL-iUp=dRjxxh68NAeCoa9E=2L1CNCpA@HIDDEN> <86pljv7arn.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB52323A76588D2FA8722FB659F3F62@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > CC: "76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2025 20:19:03 +0000 > > > However, while extending to strings comparison to symbol names could > > make sense, telling whether a string is empty (the subject of this > > report) is NOT: what symbol could have an empty name? > > That's easy. > > (intern "") gives you such a symbol. > It's written ## (dunno why). > > (symbol-name '##) ; => "" And where did you see such symbols used in Emacs?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 76055) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2025 07:17:38 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 07 02:17:38 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60653 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tgIcM-0001iu-FD for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 02:17:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57722) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tgIcK-0001ic-CM for 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 02:17:36 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tgIcE-0006mr-Mc; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 02:17:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Yl3kOgvPvUoOsFR9/6/dMeuF4aHVfKrRCpurlxDaO6k=; b=Ga7ubNMHFLIs gbA2y5gBAnKe0XH5soo1OZD4RI5ZIDXh10J2OmSHg8A45Tm+55xwEQMsj/e5WEcEI0R+7Ef3UlIdA UK4Yqrj+halnhJqYydgyv+VhKHujfloAXRQppW423+1y6mNODidR4/vUPsM4kuEPigss04NhFU4Wj P3KLLrojVH7lohkRA/VpENBnCw3MhU+Jim/BK3yCqfRuRwmp11E7kFEoZoZtXoR/rNvmP3YyV5flh OcU8G3BTiMmje3ltZaMoRFgDFXBhkIRpN4EPicQ5pS+dojTFMcdfDaAIvYKFLtfYVcQ9aCDHnsknM 284V7/toCOtjIu4Vgx+Bew==; Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2025 09:17:29 +0200 Message-Id: <86seoq5ily.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB5232AC206E35197070A5DB2CF3F62@HIDDEN> (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 6 Feb 2025 20:19:50 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <86zfj08uaa.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB52327DE3E8FB1ADDBE35E6D4F3F72@HIDDEN> <8634gs87zt.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232713EFE4112D730EE2AE5F3F72@HIDDEN> <86r04b7b0f.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232AC206E35197070A5DB2CF3F62@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > CC: "76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2025 20:19:50 +0000 > > Please fix the doc for `string-empty-p', at least. As I said, I don't think it's needed. I didn't yet hear any opinions supporting your request.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
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Thu, 6 Feb 2025 20:19:50 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p Thread-Index: AQHbeG4Kj4Tnnw0AFEOIFSlwhvTMM7M6t+pw Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2025 20:19:50 +0000 Message-ID: <DS7PR10MB5232AC206E35197070A5DB2CF3F62@HIDDEN> References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <86zfj08uaa.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB52327DE3E8FB1ADDBE35E6D4F3F72@HIDDEN> <8634gs87zt.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232713EFE4112D730EE2AE5F3F72@HIDDEN> <86r04b7b0f.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <86r04b7b0f.fsf@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DS7PR10MB5232:EE_|MN6PR10MB8072:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6899535b-c32e-4660-6b2b-08dd46eb9bd3 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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That's easy. (intern "") gives you such a symbol. It's written ## (dunno why). (symbol-name '##) ; =3D> ""
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 76055) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2025 08:12:04 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 06 03:12:04 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54184 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tfwzT-0002jS-QY for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Feb 2025 03:12:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33622) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tfwzR-0002iv-7y for 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Feb 2025 03:12:01 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tfwzL-0006JV-ID; Thu, 06 Feb 2025 03:11:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=iuc/m9RUcmW8CmEr8rfvpEKX1PdEo9pUoJQqPUj+dZ0=; b=g2/np8HNOvZS LWBKVmbSAy891JmW/8xxpfTZpdIa7BTQcnphDt0JBJyvrtTHBNvJel4r0HSzxZJi82a/zFa9RUNop li41emd/4S13h9SnwSARXIAlXB6L96mzcp04zRenOpt6wD8MVFHbGT2OHrwALrWoOiaGZraijapYu 4xyv2aHHjjxGt9ImrqLMzNCWLnM2GV2BUcZvouNgKnOu/wZpozmMOyWJMxNXVgBaAQlzXiM46Xuur K0O/ETJppMyHf3QLOcYQYQ7n4LuU1x8dsZ7m6rrfvVCkZxr5jJ4XgDVHUA8VXpYfHGl3cORucgjfj gq0VCf7eadYAcJFsLxS9Og==; Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:11:40 +0200 Message-Id: <86pljv7arn.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmn3k=g=XtJ=cWHL-iUp=dRjxxh68NAeCoa9E=2L1CNCpA@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:41:47 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmn3k=g=XtJ=cWHL-iUp=dRjxxh68NAeCoa9E=2L1CNCpA@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> > Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:41:47 -0500 > > Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text > editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: > > > The doc string should tell you that it treats a symbol for arg STRING, > > instead of a string, by checking its `symbol-name'. E.g., like what is > > done for `string=': > > > > Symbols are also allowed; their print names are used instead. > > FWIW, I'm not suggesting any changes, but I admit that I never really > understood this design decision. It's too late to change that: this function supported symbols since the very beginning. I'm guessing there were good practical reasons for that behavior. However, while extending to strings comparison to symbol names could make sense, telling whether a string is empty (the subject of this report) is NOT: what symbol could have an empty name?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 76055) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2025 08:06:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 06 03:06:37 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54176 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tfwuD-0002Th-AZ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Feb 2025 03:06:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42658) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tfwuA-0002TO-BX for 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Feb 2025 03:06:35 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tfwu4-00056b-Eg; Thu, 06 Feb 2025 03:06:28 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=31EWGzv3NWcYZ9Q6gMz4Zlf02h1Fvn7RHW747QSEIY0=; b=PRaaQpWjaIbd AJyDVF87BFgOFWMs9Lr26Xv55gadzxgNKaZKESmBKPo1O9cfw0eDqqBHeIKGl3TKhLOlkudY6Cu2u NmtuiKxBwsoo8GoJO4g6+gdDMLIKHVaKXSXyacMkMi/dxvCCZeDalT7kroE/pWJbszdeFsS3Zrb2E ybYtIiD7fly2ZRjyN+EFPfhaDYKFJcmzeZXO414uEyJXdqq2e0RAwi2doimofHLUvRR1aB8qrNJf+ LohEDUPdzbBPBeJtNVHxxtS5uXgw/asn42RPFHc+eUcVrIXVWDBqtsggcXE2fMYXK36j16fRcF8tz 3ASA58wcqZYJ0EY3qkPMEA==; Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:06:24 +0200 Message-Id: <86r04b7b0f.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB5232713EFE4112D730EE2AE5F3F72@HIDDEN> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 5 Feb 2025 21:13:05 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <86zfj08uaa.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB52327DE3E8FB1ADDBE35E6D4F3F72@HIDDEN> <8634gs87zt.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232713EFE4112D730EE2AE5F3F72@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > CC: "76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2025 21:13:05 +0000 > > > > To be more precise: Please do it for each > > > such function where you can guess that this > > > behavior isn't just a side effect or that's > > > likely to be changed without notice. > > > > How can anyone know that? > > By looking at the name of the function and the > function definition, and thinking about how > the function is used and expected to be used? Feel free to do this and suggest which functions you think should document their support of symbols. I personally think that you are greatly underestimating how large and complex this job is, and therefore I don't plan doing it myself, and would not encourage anyone to do it. I think the benefits are quite small compared with the efforts. > At least for _new_ functions that use primarily > strings as args, the _author_ should know why it > was decided to allow symbols instead of just > strings. You assume that it was a conscious decision, but that is not given at all. I dare to think that this assumption is simply false in most, if not all, cases.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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Lisp is a dynamic language, and=20 > predicates generally accept anything. If anything, > if the notion is that string-empty-p should _reject_=20 > anything but strings, it should be an assert! > (Not saying that should be the case ...) This is essentially a type predicate (per its name, if nothing else): test whether the arg is an empty string. Of _course_ you can pass it a value of any type. But what should its behavior be for a non-string arg? There was a choice made of whether to return nil for an arbitrary non-string or to raise an error. Emacs chose the latter, and I have _no problem_ with that. (string-empty-p [1 2]) ; -> error (string-empty-p 42) ; -> error (string-empty-p (cons 1 2)) ; -> error (string-empty-p nil) ; -> error But if the non-string is a symbol then we have a different story: (string-empty-p "cat") ; -> nil (string-empty-p 'cat) ; -> nil (string-empty-p "") ; -> t (string-empty-p (intern "")) ; -> t The handling of a symbol arg isn't something someone would expect, just by looking at the function name and reading the doc. It raises an error for a non-string argument, showing that it is, indeed, an empty-string type predicate... ...EXCEPT for a non-string argument that's a symbol. If the `symbol-name' of the symbol is "" then it returns t. If the name is "x" it returns nil. That's what's missing. It's not _at all_ obvious it would do this - neither from its name nor from its doc. It presents itself as just an empty-string type predicate. Just what is this function? It's simply a `string=3D' test for "". And lo and behold, the doc string of `string=3D' tells us loud and clear: Symbols are also allowed; their print names are used instead. Thank you very much, Emacs doc! I have no problem with this choice of behavior. And the doc is nice enough to make the behavior clear. The doc of `string-empty-p' should obviously do the same - for the same reason: because this exceptional non-string behavior is not obvious, and the predicate's name and doc suggests a different behavior (so far).
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
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Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:
> The doc string should tell you that it treats a symbol for arg STRING,
> instead of a string, by checking its `symbol-name'. E.g., like what is
> done for `string=':
>
> Symbols are also allowed; their print names are used instead.
FWIW, I'm not suggesting any changes, but I admit that I never really
understood this design decision.
This is what I get in Guile:
scheme@(guile-user)> (string=? "foo" 'foo)
ice-9/boot-9.scm:1676:22: In procedure raise-exception:
In procedure string=: Wrong type argument in position 2 (expecting
string): foo
And in SBCL:
* (string= "foo" 'foo)
NIL
* (string= "foo" 123)
debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR in thread
#<THREAD tid=259 "main thread" RUNNING {7004FF0003}>:
123 is not a string designator.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 76055) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2025 21:27:52 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 05 16:27:52 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52926 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tfmw4-0007Yc-Ab for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Feb 2025 16:27:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59946) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ams@HIDDEN>) id 1tfmw1-0007YN-Ak for 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Feb 2025 16:27:50 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <ams@HIDDEN>) id 1tfmvv-0008M3-Ok; Wed, 05 Feb 2025 16:27:43 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=0oY0p9upjCOnM/4Mdtu4Ws2z2itT4dcCalPobQaD5g8=; b=eGlXq5AuYPpW ZbVZmQmFrtUfcs0N5sgZ8X5YhA5D8NrWOvyTawx38iFEjFNw1O4Dj0cqEKC9n+OY9Z/I2z85fbfTj 1+WVhOBedtlBmlZcmEt1Bz4qU389ivshOUtpF4Ntk5mSkxRSix+jM9yVHnzvI50CDozE0mku75UDj lDkz+eedM+T5E/I1emeD+t9PGsfPpMg0GKgra/3YnJFXGMf66IKdUqGSl6hKQzeaVPsC1GhnqPS1F aONvXU8xyy+TSM6EtjDDRhU5hBZVY2oMIkXirHn/2hcwrAejaM235UY6TrQ9CL8Movs5Lbkt2GP1I JTg+eLXj525xzMah5Pc5AA==; Received: from ams by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <ams@HIDDEN>) id 1tfmvv-0007aI-7Y; Wed, 05 Feb 2025 16:27:43 -0500 From: "Alfred M. Szmidt" <ams@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB5232713EFE4112D730EE2AE5F3F72@HIDDEN> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 5 Feb 2025 21:13:05 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <86zfj08uaa.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB52327DE3E8FB1ADDBE35E6D4F3F72@HIDDEN> <8634gs87zt.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232713EFE4112D730EE2AE5F3F72@HIDDEN> Message-Id: <E1tfmvv-0007aI-7Y@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2025 16:27:43 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) A function such as `string-empty-p' is a prime candidate for checking and adding such mention. Its name (and its current doc string) provides no clue that it handles a symbol argument as if you were passing (symbol-name <the symbol>). Why should it? Lisp is a dynamic language, and predicates generally accept anything. If anything, if the notion is that string-empty-p should _reject_ anything but strings, it should be an assert! (Not saying that should be the case ...) If a function name shouts that the function's only about a string, its doc should mention it if that's not the case.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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Wed, 5 Feb 2025 21:13:05 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p Thread-Index: AQHbeAqHmGX+IXfGS0+BZLlicm03IbM5MusQ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2025 21:13:05 +0000 Message-ID: <DS7PR10MB5232713EFE4112D730EE2AE5F3F72@HIDDEN> References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <86zfj08uaa.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB52327DE3E8FB1ADDBE35E6D4F3F72@HIDDEN> <8634gs87zt.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <8634gs87zt.fsf@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DS7PR10MB5232:EE_|MW4PR10MB6345:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: a3532eb1-eae7-408d-6cba-08dd4629e1f3 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; ARA:13230040|376014|366016|1800799024|38070700018; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: =?us-ascii?Q?n1ltMRUyXaIuH5ILQFqBuigxf/AdC4+IP+5CGNURu/ZbDMgU4erEO+34PIcx?= =?us-ascii?Q?wcluVWeQP7QrOYk0sqYgRugT5d5uO63FtFaAmsvHpSoSeVFzBiqf7SP4XuSy?= =?us-ascii?Q?xa0GZxeCO8Dy5/x1rjaA1eULzkw+WZ8+JII0Pmu6QqO4/HOZju/jstaUB4im?= =?us-ascii?Q?g4uuz8KogDMrL4rJJoq5t2O6RmA0WCaQpQEeG4LW+iUHCf+N2CLZ60PNrXsg?= =?us-ascii?Q?E5ATXGprdBx09jEULtny7z8nbcPm2aW13RdVzUwuvD3OsASIw4x4ZSGSYZiM?= =?us-ascii?Q?XyPqUo66PuQ3KGtYzSuiyN3MlW/jyVLz+NKCzBXUm5nzBTBMJy/A5xOrSa8x?= =?us-ascii?Q?fDO0+nxzhCrwxjUTGRDDTtWm8coZzyfICsQUvFgSv5Ik02WFoBomnzpKZC+e?= =?us-ascii?Q?wvNcnKMCTSestQ6dwA5j7sjauoncMWfn9mOwEwzj5vtvI1M0CJlI+k3PvJ0/?= =?us-ascii?Q?2h5zDZgn68+TFvCAj0fLBkUGZztwO8Wm6WrYA6L45QjH99KZ/KjxLy7vmKLy?= =?us-ascii?Q?+4JTcTX5kt43QYa6EhMKD7lJ1J1KFS/B50LHkql4NQeE3bvxoVRP5U72S4et?= =?us-ascii?Q?bvdi7nvdOeTbcDr5kw3HTb50O7sG0hUSIubX6k8nBFAfrfSWphLw5hHE8E6P?= =?us-ascii?Q?ESmdZW6pCvPYrwXmj/gecXMzCgtRkx5gkISYLZlZ5UFMaxUNqHTX+gfGUulL?= =?us-ascii?Q?qNUGMFavCPvEEQF9gOirVQqsO7IULC9Qe4gNWkJTx4krsdJG4v7NHZzyVt1v?= =?us-ascii?Q?Mr6TzXY9V9dkRH40r5eS4jM4iy3YoDCEieJibDcdoxiarfa0aTUpiRNlPVIo?= =?us-ascii?Q?zcsy5ZQs6oKUTqH0zBzDD3BEU0iaKJGdAZDybb3cgS6TqBU8xy2WpHdBsJf+?= =?us-ascii?Q?WLcN0TEwkN+K5QNgNj1uqmNzRvMPrzkFw5s9MYKUcPfRJ/h7X/hrpN6GRnIO?= =?us-ascii?Q?MAY2GXYutoPd+Y9sJamGimp+CYQ452WrtupvqaIyLUBY/bw4CrZRBQnN1n9x?= =?us-ascii?Q?sNUlPo90wkiqLQdo/dnONkEm/f8BL7O56ox1okz36GRLBg6VpIuPaVEW9NtC?= =?us-ascii?Q?21aMRH/XcEdHOKgHaEu+IJ6UoPg8kcX4Am/kOjy0WEW4U7qFKGGEZ/wTIgIQ?= =?us-ascii?Q?d+dzqJgPKekGKnbPUfcuhPTpbrMXn1HaHEm8xODticIG6kknfQsuZzZONl5b?= =?us-ascii?Q?TOPW6t9y6laSCGYRWflej5l5gSys/6z9KI8q3OPlpmy3U1h/Ch7ATFu23e6o?= =?us-ascii?Q?J1KWHTK/+5wCxBZkHVYJjO3pjl0ISBeuxC4QYXbk6DNHxS40tUouzseixR2R?= =?us-ascii?Q?w4/A9u+3hVSMFPj8DHLMlxE3ZAogWKjJWaCOBOgAsnNHaYbiZqiHjlxgLgNS?= =?us-ascii?Q?QC1UNBrkK+u+zEA5j+aLjRHiTzvULbTcOupikQtzlEgbOZN+KK5eG4m43xmD?= =?us-ascii?Q?VOaIVLIxkOsU747GN6edFAWDjRS6gICr?= x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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By looking at the name of the function and the function definition, and thinking about how the function is used and expected to be used? A function such as `string-empty-p' is a prime candidate for checking and adding such mention. Its name (and its current doc string) provides no clue that it handles a symbol argument as if you were passing (symbol-name <the symbol>). If a function name shouts that the function's only about a string, its doc should mention it if that's not the case. > > My guess is that 90% or more of the cases > > where we do this are intentional - we > > explicitly _want_ to let users use a symbol > > in place of a string. That means it's in > > the _design_, not just an implementation > > side effect. >=20 > That a function calls string=3D doesn't yet mean its author meant to > allow symbols. Of course not. It requires thinking about the function's definition and how it's expected to be used. At least for _new_ functions that use primarily strings as args, the _author_ should know why it was decided to allow symbols instead of just strings.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 76055) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2025 20:14:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 05 15:14:10 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52778 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tflmk-00012j-Cr for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Feb 2025 15:14:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41150) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tflmi-00012S-1f for 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Feb 2025 15:14:08 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tflmc-0002GP-8k; Wed, 05 Feb 2025 15:14:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=amIwxGZKWT7eFzi44/zhR0+VK0c2HUxN/toRgSAz2jA=; b=riDcdKApFKZG md/bmvDVq5UPaaHJ1DaKWDuFIV/wPDXQmHHHhXnIIN46KxEXHlMZgIE+CmkUfVETpLZrj6gIBFlDW tikIrLZcNvejTNb+mLR3iARg/tQlEGwUQOeaEJqqYW5nmMU6IQznZgtw+OHI2yZz3ScZdeQjf/bpR 7FdJ1BE4xf58f1Qce+JE3LOS8m7g5RVOvuMElIHa29kt/vsO1Bmc0gVgWTBgMs5K0c/yynA+c0js3 QTv7HTUyDioqhSsnXwgV2DcAm3nspeQX+jhZQFmMUaohk/ibbnKhtltOEjqXY8joKk40z8ee6LTjJ 0Z2DsKoxk5gL1tXhXnRpoA==; Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2025 22:13:58 +0200 Message-Id: <8634gs87zt.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB52327DE3E8FB1ADDBE35E6D4F3F72@HIDDEN> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 5 Feb 2025 17:13:17 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> <86zfj08uaa.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB52327DE3E8FB1ADDBE35E6D4F3F72@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > CC: "76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2025 17:13:17 +0000 > > To be more precise: Please do it for each > such function where you can guess that this > behavior isn't just a side effect or that's > likely to be changed without notice. How can anyone know that? > My guess is that 90% or more of the cases > where we do this are intentional - we > explicitly _want_ to let users use a symbol > in place of a string. That means it's in > the _design_, not just an implementation > side effect. That a function calls string= doesn't yet mean its author meant to allow symbols.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e929eaa8-1271-47f7-01c6-08dd46086250 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Feb 2025 17:13:17.9470 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: DSuf1APDOpql8kG/ydc/ORPbxUd+49SdKLLJUvlYL4HczqOeBsiw6Dh/qJurIurxmwbwEsQCGgRfC8bdfv/Qfg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DS7PR10MB7373 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1057,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.68.34 definitions=2025-02-05_06,2025-02-05_03,2024-11-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2501170000 definitions=main-2502050132 X-Proofpoint-GUID: AyZjRrwpv6ISDokGiH2R_cznjwxZ-he2 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: AyZjRrwpv6ISDokGiH2R_cznjwxZ-he2 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: "76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > Symbols are also allowed; their print names are used instead. > > > > This should be done for _each_ function where a string is said to be th= e > > expected arg but where we also allow a symbol. >=20 > I'm not sure we want to advertise this, certainly not "for _each_ > function". Who says this is not a side effect of the particular > implementation, which can therefore be changed without notice? Fair enough, wrt your last sentence. I didn't say "for each function". I said each function where..." - something quite different. To be more precise: Please do it for each such function where you can guess that this behavior isn't just a side effect or that's likely to be changed without notice. My guess is that 90% or more of the cases where we do this are intentional - we explicitly _want_ to let users use a symbol in place of a string. That means it's in the _design_, not just an implementation side effect. So for all _such_ functions (i.e., where you can consider that this is something users should be aware of), please make the change. It's a judgment call, up to you.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 76055) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2025 12:12:39 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 05 07:12:39 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48899 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tfeGk-00041y-Vn for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Feb 2025 07:12:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42882) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tfeGj-00041l-K6 for 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Feb 2025 07:12:37 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1tfeGe-0005zq-6r; Wed, 05 Feb 2025 07:12:32 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=i3Hf69d6/fZBcVKNRR6s1iQilAgI2EL3R/reZgEEd7o=; b=OR7mBpoetIM9 ijTK7qEXq7T86oQQj8IiNodRilUAsWZdsJK82Pnvk8Z6fwKmBaP3dAY/sFaqpppOx2sEbS4Ds3Q4w eki2su/1JW3XRElUXajI50kx1oRN4bMXwQp8Ha+15nXWBfULHFJKHcA2llmBz4wtc15TP0DlkfP1f Zsqc8oKF6xFjTpQLn04qL4X2QCaLo38rwMVTgjxww1qo15rpln5dWAgw5o2bohI8YlPKURl/iysSj uygGo506qBjv1toKs1W28WPwDqGE0XuBUJL0dkm7HDanxhXslDcBMaAsmgkGaThsxfeQwpwcDi9SF A0jqWuclB4Hv+T4BKGbrlw==; Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2025 14:12:29 +0200 Message-Id: <86zfj08uaa.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#76055: 29.4; Doc of string-empty-p References: <DS7PR10MB52329FB89906B650BB2420BBF3F42@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76055 Cc: 76055 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 20:28:00 +0000 > From: Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> > > The doc string should tell you that it treats a symbol for arg STRING, > instead of a string, by checking its `symbol-name'. E.g., like what is > done for `string=': > > Symbols are also allowed; their print names are used instead. > > This should be done for _each_ function where a string is said to be the > expected arg but where we also allow a symbol. I'm not sure we want to advertise this, certainly not "for _each_ function". Who says this is not a side effect of the particular implementation, which can therefore be changed without notice?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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envelope-from=drew.adams@HIDDEN; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) The doc string should tell you that it treats a symbol for arg STRING, instead of a string, by checking its `symbol-name'. E.g., like what is done for `string=3D': Symbols are also allowed; their print names are used instead. This should be done for _each_ function where a string is said to be the expected arg but where we also allow a symbol. In GNU Emacs 29.4 (build 2, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2024-07-05 built on AVALON Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19045 System Description: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (v10.0.2009.19045.5371) Configured using: 'configure --with-modules --without-dbus --with-native-compilation=3Daot --without-compress-install --with-sqlite3 --with-tree-sitter CFLAGS=3D-O2' Configured features: ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP XPM ZLIB (NATIVE_COMP present but libgccjit not available) Important settings: value of $LANG: ENU locale-coding-system: cp1252
Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#76055; Package emacs.
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