GNU bug report logs - #76313
New function `replace-region`

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Package: emacs; Reported by: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>; Keywords: patch; dated Sat, 15 Feb 2025 22:19:02 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

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From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
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References: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org> <865xl8blam.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> I'm saying that the documentation aspect of this is not the real
> problem.  Once we agree on the code and API changes, updating the
> documentation is a no-brainer, and I don't expect it to trigger an
> argument.
>
> The problem here is how to provide the functionality without
> complicating Emacs with yet another API, where we already have two.

OK, thanks.  That makes it more clear to me what you're saying.

I don't have any better solution to propose than:

    a) Obsoleting `replace-buffer-contents`.

    b) Renaming `replace-region-contents` to `replace-region-carefully`.

I think both of these would make sense independently of `replace-region`.
How about we move ahead with those, and then revisit the situation once
that is done?
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2025 10:48:59 +0200
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
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 (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 7 Mar 2025 20:23:09 +0000)
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
References: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org> <86h64sbw57.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
> Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2025 20:23:09 +0000
> Cc: 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN, tsdh@HIDDEN
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > but it doesn't solve the problem, either: the
> > other APIs still exist, so the potential confusion what to use when is
> > still there.  I very much doubt that you will be able to catch all the
> > subtleties in our documentation to avoid the confusion, but feel free
> > to try convincing me otherwise.
> 
> I don't fully understand what exactly you are asking for here.  Would
> you like me to propose a documentation patch on top of Stefan Monnier's
> patch?
> 
> I don't know if this is sufficient, but I suggest putting
> `replace-region` at the top of (info "(elisp) Replacing").  I don't
> think it will be very hard to explain the specialized nature of a
> renamed `replace-region-carefully`.  It's doable even if we don't rename
> it, I think, although the `replace-region-contents` name is a fair bit
> less self-explanatory.
> 
> I'm sure that we can come up with good documentation if we collaborate
> to make it so; we usually do.

I'm saying that the documentation aspect of this is not the real
problem.  Once we agree on the code and API changes, updating the
documentation is a no-brainer, and I don't expect it to trigger an
argument.

The problem here is how to provide the functionality without
complicating Emacs with yet another API, where we already have two.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> To make things even clearer, we could consider renaming
>> `replace-region-contents` to `carefully-replace-region`, or something
>> along those lines.  Its docstring and manual entry should emphasize it's
>> specialized nature.  Then, we have only one API that we really recommend
>> for this, plus the specialized function for the rare cases when you
>> really need it.
>
> I'm not opposed to renaming too much (although it does have its
> non-negligible price),

Fully agreed.  It's more painful to rename things that are used often,
of course.

> but it doesn't solve the problem, either: the
> other APIs still exist, so the potential confusion what to use when is
> still there.  I very much doubt that you will be able to catch all the
> subtleties in our documentation to avoid the confusion, but feel free
> to try convincing me otherwise.

I don't fully understand what exactly you are asking for here.  Would
you like me to propose a documentation patch on top of Stefan Monnier's
patch?

I don't know if this is sufficient, but I suggest putting
`replace-region` at the top of (info "(elisp) Replacing").  I don't
think it will be very hard to explain the specialized nature of a
renamed `replace-region-carefully`.  It's doable even if we don't rename
it, I think, although the `replace-region-contents` name is a fair bit
less self-explanatory.

I'm sure that we can come up with good documentation if we collaborate
to make it so; we usually do.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2025 10:47:40 +0200
Message-Id: <861pvao89f.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmneyHrb9GAK4MxeK1RPtSJa3P1W2wtNL=OuwJHJRudnow@HIDDEN>
 (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 5 Mar 2025 11:28:42 -0800)
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
References: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org> <86mselbsbi.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv1pvx5mtw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86h64sbw57.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2025 11:28:42 -0800
> Cc: monnier@HIDDEN, 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, tsdh@HIDDEN
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >> FWIW, I think that I'd personally rather see another function than
> >> complicating the `replace-region` interface just for this.
> >
> > And I'm of the directly opposite opinion.  I think having 2 APIs for
> > this is too much; adding a 3rd is overboard.
> >
> > I proposed some ways to avoid adding yet another API.  Yes, they are
> > less than ideal, but then we don't develop Emacs from scratch here, so
> > compromises are unavoidable.  (And it bothers me that two of the most
> > prolific Emacs contributors don't see t5he terrible downsides of
> > exponential explosion in the number of Emacs functions and variables.)
> 
> My proposal is to obsolete `replace-buffer-contents`, as per Stefan
> Monnier's suggestion.[1]

Why would we obsolete a function that is used in half a dozen places
in our own sources?

And anyway, obsoleting a function doesn't remove it from Emacs until
many years in the future.

> Adding `replace-region` would then bring us up to 2 APIs.  This is the
> same as what we have now.

This trick doesn't solve my problem, sorry.

> To make things even clearer, we could consider renaming
> `replace-region-contents` to `carefully-replace-region`, or something
> along those lines.  Its docstring and manual entry should emphasize it's
> specialized nature.  Then, we have only one API that we really recommend
> for this, plus the specialized function for the rare cases when you
> really need it.

I'm not opposed to renaming too much (although it does have its
non-negligible price), but it doesn't solve the problem, either: the
other APIs still exist, so the potential confusion what to use when is
still there.  I very much doubt that you will be able to catch all the
subtleties in our documentation to avoid the confusion, but feel free
to try convincing me otherwise.

> (BTW, since `replace-region-contents` is currently unused in our tree,
> maybe we don't even need it.  OTOH, if we rename it, it shouldn't hurt
> to leave it alone, in case it will be needed again in the future.)

OTOH, my suggestion to extend replace-buffer-contents instead was
rejected by Stefan Monnier more strongly than the suggestion to extend
replace-region-contents.  So it sounds like Stefan favors
replace-region-contents.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.
Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs@HIDDEN> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
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References: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org> <86mselbsbi.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv1pvx5mtw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86h64sbw57.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvzfik398m.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <865xl8blam.fsf@HIDDEN>
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 <jwvpljf1jh5.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86msej8du2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvtt8ryyzl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86a5aj82zq.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvtt8rxbnr.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86h64q6t87.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwveczuugkw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmm_wYVQRMk83EJww9mTbboCcyTTc-bVVbog9SNeN0d05A@HIDDEN>
 <87r03tw121.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmn_G9DZjk_cjzPOtAr9wpQQ6tUVVjp3fBnetyT8cGahfA@HIDDEN>
 <jwvpljbguqm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2025 19:58:05 -0800
>> Cc: Philipp Stephani <phst@HIDDEN>, 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
>> 	Tassilo Horn <tsdh@HIDDEN>
>>
>> FWIW, I think that I'd personally rather see another function than
>> complicating the `replace-region` interface just for this.
>
> And I'm of the directly opposite opinion.  I think having 2 APIs for
> this is too much; adding a 3rd is overboard.
>
> I proposed some ways to avoid adding yet another API.  Yes, they are
> less than ideal, but then we don't develop Emacs from scratch here, so
> compromises are unavoidable.  (And it bothers me that two of the most
> prolific Emacs contributors don't see t5he terrible downsides of
> exponential explosion in the number of Emacs functions and variables.)

My proposal is to obsolete `replace-buffer-contents`, as per Stefan
Monnier's suggestion.[1]  This is orthogonal to adding `replace-region`,
but means that we only have one API.

Adding `replace-region` would then bring us up to 2 APIs.  This is the
same as what we have now.

To make things even clearer, we could consider renaming
`replace-region-contents` to `carefully-replace-region`, or something
along those lines.  Its docstring and manual entry should emphasize it's
specialized nature.  Then, we have only one API that we really recommend
for this, plus the specialized function for the rare cases when you
really need it.

(BTW, since `replace-region-contents` is currently unused in our tree,
maybe we don't even need it.  OTOH, if we rename it, it shouldn't hurt
to leave it alone, in case it will be needed again in the future.)

Footnotes:
[1]  https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=76313#76
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwvv7snzhms.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
 Monnier on Wed, 05 Mar 2025 09:21:51 -0500)
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
References: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org>
 <jwvr03xzuvz.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86mselbsbi.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv1pvx5mtw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86h64sbw57.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvzfik398m.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <865xl8blam.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy0y49w9z.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86ldu3a18y.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvpljf1jh5.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86msej8du2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvtt8ryyzl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86a5aj82zq.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvtt8rxbnr.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86h64q6t87.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwveczuugkw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmm_wYVQRMk83EJww9mTbboCcyTTc-bVVbog9SNeN0d05A@HIDDEN>
 <87r03tw121.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmn_G9DZjk_cjzPOtAr9wpQQ6tUVVjp3fBnetyT8cGahfA@HIDDEN>
 <jwvpljbguqm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmnL1VaEh+hdMjY6fPXOQDhOw6b9QP0ySY9K9Q_C5YwdGA@HIDDEN>
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Philipp Stephani <phst@HIDDEN>,  76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  Eli
>  Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  Tassilo Horn <tsdh@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2025 09:21:51 -0500
> 
> >> I think it's hard to fix the problems of `replace-buffer-contents` in
> >> a backward incompatible way, so I suggest we "standardize" on
> >> `replace-region-contents` instead where we replace its REPLACE-FN
> >> argument with a REPLACE argument which can be either a string, or a
> >> buffer, or a function (this latter one could be deprecated, but we'd
> >> keep it for backward compatibility).
> >> This is backward-compatible, so we would obsolete only `replace-buffer-contents`.
> > This is orthogonal to `replace-region`, is it not?
> 
> Mostly.  And that's the point: to try and allow forward progress while
> we try and resolve the remaining disagreement.
> 
> > It sounds to me like a good change, in any case.
> 
> Eli?

I don't think I understand what is the question I'm being asked here.

If the suggestion is to extend replace-region-contents, then you will
recall that this was your first proposal, with which I agreed in
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=76313#14, and again in
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=76313#29, but you then
said in https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=76313#32 you
didn't like that?
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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References: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org>
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 <jwv1pvx5mtw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86h64sbw57.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvzfik398m.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <865xl8blam.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy0y49w9z.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86ldu3a18y.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvpljf1jh5.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86msej8du2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvtt8ryyzl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86a5aj82zq.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvtt8rxbnr.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86h64q6t87.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwveczuugkw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmm_wYVQRMk83EJww9mTbboCcyTTc-bVVbog9SNeN0d05A@HIDDEN>
 <87r03tw121.fsf@HIDDEN>
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>> I think it's hard to fix the problems of `replace-buffer-contents` in
>> a backward incompatible way, so I suggest we "standardize" on
>> `replace-region-contents` instead where we replace its REPLACE-FN
>> argument with a REPLACE argument which can be either a string, or a
>> buffer, or a function (this latter one could be deprecated, but we'd
>> keep it for backward compatibility).
>> This is backward-compatible, so we would obsolete only `replace-buffer-contents`.
> This is orthogonal to `replace-region`, is it not?

Mostly.  And that's the point: to try and allow forward progress while
we try and resolve the remaining disagreement.

> It sounds to me like a good change, in any case.

Eli?


        Stefan
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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 (message from Stefan Kangas on Tue, 4 Mar 2025 19:58:05 -0800)
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2025 19:58:05 -0800
> Cc: Philipp Stephani <phst@HIDDEN>, 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 
> 	Tassilo Horn <tsdh@HIDDEN>
> 
> FWIW, I think that I'd personally rather see another function than
> complicating the `replace-region` interface just for this.

And I'm of the directly opposite opinion.  I think having 2 APIs for
this is too much; adding a 3rd is overboard.

I proposed some ways to avoid adding yet another API.  Yes, they are
less than ideal, but then we don't develop Emacs from scratch here, so
compromises are unavoidable.  (And it bothers me that two of the most
prolific Emacs contributors don't see t5he terrible downsides of
exponential explosion in the number of Emacs functions and variables.)
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
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References: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org> <86seoecung.fsf@HIDDEN>
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 <jwvzfik398m.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <865xl8blam.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy0y49w9z.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86ldu3a18y.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvpljf1jh5.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86msej8du2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvtt8ryyzl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86a5aj82zq.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvtt8rxbnr.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <86h64q6t87.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwveczuugkw.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmm_wYVQRMk83EJww9mTbboCcyTTc-bVVbog9SNeN0d05A@HIDDEN>
 <87r03tw121.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CADwFkmn_G9DZjk_cjzPOtAr9wpQQ6tUVVjp3fBnetyT8cGahfA@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:

> I suggest we start by merging `replace-region-contents` and `replace-buff=
er-contents`.
> The downsides I see of each interface is:
>
> - `replace-region-contents` takes a REPLACE-FN whereas
>   it's often easier to compute the replacement beforehand.
> - `replace-buffer-contents` operates only on the "whole"
>   buffer, so requires the use of narrowing if we need something else.
> - `replace-buffer-contents` can't accept a string as the replacement
>   because it already takes a string to mean the name of a buffer.

I'll add that MAX-SECS and MAX-COSTS is a significant complication in
the interfaces of both functions.  I think this is because they were
neither designed as nor intended to be low-level operations.  This is
the main reason why I think `replace-region` is still needed, though I
also agree with the above points.

See also Bug#71370, where we are struggling to justify the obsoletion of
the generalized variable `buffer-substring`, because we do not have
anything to replace it with.  According to the statistics posted there
by Andrea, that is the most popular generalized variable by far, so
there are clearly more than a few users that want something like it.

> I think it's hard to fix the problems of `replace-buffer-contents` in
> a backward incompatible way, so I suggest we "standardize" on
> `replace-region-contents` instead where we replace its REPLACE-FN
> argument with a REPLACE argument which can be either a string, or a
> buffer, or a function (this latter one could be deprecated, but we'd
> keep it for backward compatibility).
>
> This is backward-compatible, so we would obsolete only `replace-buffer-co=
ntents`.

This is orthogonal to `replace-region`, is it not?  It sounds to me like
a good change, in any case.

> Compared to my notion of ideal this would still have three problems:
>
> - It's much slower than insert+delete-region, so it's not a replacement
>   for the function I proposed.  We could add a "fast" option to it, but
>   this fast option (which would presumably be the most common use case)
>   would require every caller to pass an extra argument, which
>   would be inconvenient (would encourage people to use the expensive
>   code without being aware of the risk).
> - It lacks an option to `insert-and-inherit` (needed by
>   `minibuffer--replace`).  We could add one more optional arg for it.
>   It would be kind of "far" (after MAX-SECS MAX-COSTS), so it's not
>   ideal, but it's not the end of the world.
> - It still uses this MAX-COSTS argument which noone seems to understand.
>
> BTW, the code of `replace-buffer-contents` does:
>
>        del_range (...);
>        Finsert_buffer_substring (...);
>
> This means that As it currently stands, when there is no similarity
> between the before and after contents, `replace-buffer-contents`
> preserves markers less carefully than the `replace-region` code
> I sent =F0=9F=99=81.
>
> The above would be better replaced by a call to a simple&fast
> `replace-region`, tho contrary to the one I sent, that one needs to take
> its replacement text from a region of a buffer rather than from
> a string.  I guess we could let the STRING (aka REPLACE) arg of
> `replace-region` be a triplet (BUFFER FROM TO), or we could add another
> function of the form
>
>     (replace-region-from-buffer BEG END
>                                 BUFFER BUFFER-BEG BUFFER-END
>                                 &optional INHERIT)
>
> or require the use of narrowing in the source buffer to implicitly pass
> the bounds.

FWIW, I think that I'd personally rather see another function than
complicating the `replace-region` interface just for this.  OTOH, if
it's needed only here perhaps we could just inline it.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmn_G9DZjk_cjzPOtAr9wpQQ6tUVVjp3fBnetyT8cGahfA@HIDDEN>
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References: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org> <86seoecung.fsf@HIDDEN>
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>>> The `replace-region-contents' function builds on that, and similarly
>>> has a complicated calling convention.  I think it should similarly be
>>> renamed to highlight its specialized nature.
>>
>> Fine with me but we have to consider that it's already used in the wild.
>> I remember submitting patches to at least restclient.el (which only uses
>> it through json-pretty-print-buffer so wouldn't be affected by renaming)
>> and hindent.el, see
>> https://github.com/mihaimaruseac/hindent/blob/master/elisp/hindent.el#L2=
20.
>> Maybe there are other callers in third-party packages.
>
> We could just leave the old names as aliases, so nothing should break.
> Anyways, it's not highly important to rename it, I just think that it
> might help clarify its intended use.

I suggest we start by merging `replace-region-contents` and `replace-buffer=
-contents`.
The downsides I see of each interface is:

- `replace-region-contents` takes a REPLACE-FN whereas
  it's often easier to compute the replacement beforehand.
- `replace-buffer-contents` operates only on the "whole"
  buffer, so requires the use of narrowing if we need something else.
- `replace-buffer-contents` can't accept a string as the replacement
  because it already takes a string to mean the name of a buffer.

I think it's hard to fix the problems of `replace-buffer-contents`
in a backward incompatible way, so I suggest we "standardize" on
`replace-region-contents` instead where we replace its REPLACE-FN argument
with a REPLACE argument which can be either a string, or a buffer, or
a function (this latter one could be deprecated, but we'd keep it for
backward compatibility).

This is backward-compatible, so we would obsolete only `replace-buffer-cont=
ents`.

Compared to my notion of ideal this would still have three problems:

- It's much slower than insert+delete-region, so it's not a replacement
  for the function I proposed.  We could add a "fast" option to it, but
  this fast option (which would presumably be the most common use case)
  would require every caller to pass an extra argument, which
  would be inconvenient (would encourage people to use the expensive
  code without being aware of the risk).
- It lacks an option to `insert-and-inherit` (needed by
  `minibuffer--replace`).  We could add one more optional arg for it.
  It would be kind of "far" (after MAX-SECS MAX-COSTS), so it's not
  ideal, but it's not the end of the world.
- It still uses this MAX-COSTS argument which noone seems to understand.

BTW, the code of `replace-buffer-contents` does:

       del_range (...);
       Finsert_buffer_substring (...);

This means that As it currently stands, when there is no similarity
between the before and after contents, `replace-buffer-contents`
preserves markers less carefully than the `replace-region` code
I sent =F0=9F=99=81.

The above would be better replaced by a call to a simple&fast
`replace-region`, tho contrary to the one I sent, that one needs to take
its replacement text from a region of a buffer rather than from
a string.  I guess we could let the STRING (aka REPLACE) arg of
`replace-region` be a triplet (BUFFER FROM TO), or we could add another
function of the form

    (replace-region-from-buffer BEG END
                                BUFFER BUFFER-BEG BUFFER-END
                                &optional INHERIT)

or require the use of narrowing in the source buffer to implicitly pass
the bounds.


        Stefan
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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Tassilo Horn <tsdh@HIDDEN> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>>> The benefits of supporting the `replace-region-contents` API are much
>>> smaller than the "sounded minor" annoyances we'd have to pay for the
>>> rest of Emacs's future.
>>
>> AFAIU, the `replace-buffer-contents` API exists because:
>>
>>> There are many tools (e.g. auto-formatters) that take buffer
>>> contents, reformat them, and write the reformatted output somewhere.
>>> However, there is no good way how to apply the modified output to the
>>> source buffer.  The naive way (erasing and re-inserting the buffer
>>> contents) loses point and markers.  Therefore there should be a
>>> function (e.g. `replace-buffer-contents') that calculates a minimal
>>> diff between the old and the new contents and uses editing operations
>>> (insert, delete, etc.) to apply the diff.  Ideally this would be done
>>> without any external tools (e.g. 'diff').
>>   https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=25355
>
> That's true.  I use it frequently (through json-pretty-print-buffer) to
> format minimized JSON replies from REST-APIs.  It would be a bummer if
> point moved to the end of the buffer contents after formatting.  But it
> can be unbearable slow if the region is very large and the replacement
> text differs a lot from the current text.  That's why it has these
> strange MAX-SECS and MAX-COSTS arguments.
>
>> This sounds quite specialized to my mind, and the API is also quite
>> complicated.  I think it's a fine addition for this use case, but I'd
>> suggest renaming it to something that highlights its specialized
>> nature.
>>
>> The `replace-region-contents' function builds on that, and similarly
>> has a complicated calling convention.  I think it should similarly be
>> renamed to highlight its specialized nature.
>
> Fine with me but we have to consider that it's already used in the wild.
> I remember submitting patches to at least restclient.el (which only uses
> it through json-pretty-print-buffer so wouldn't be affected by renaming)
> and hindent.el, see
> https://github.com/mihaimaruseac/hindent/blob/master/elisp/hindent.el#L220.
> Maybe there are other callers in third-party packages.

We could just leave the old names as aliases, so nothing should break.
Anyways, it's not highly important to rename it, I just think that it
might help clarify its intended use.

>> Meanwhile, according to what we have learned in Bug#71370, many users
>> are currently using this:
>>
>>     (setf (buffer-substring START END) "foo")
>
> That's actually quite elegant (although it gives an obsolecence
> warning).  It never occured to me that (buffer-substring START END) was
> a generalized variable.

I think the main "problem" is that ELisp programmers are more used to
functions than generalized variables, so some people (like you and me
probably) are less used to them.  I also wasn't aware of this until we
decided to obsolete it a few years ago.

>> I think this shows the need for a more low-level operation, and
>> `replace-region` seems to fit this use case exactly.  So I would be in
>> favor of installing it.
>
> IMHO, it should at least reference replace-region-contents from its
> docstring and explain the difference (and vice-versa).

Fully agreed.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Feedback-ID: ib2b94485:Fastmail
From: Tassilo Horn <tsdh@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN> writes:

>> The benefits of supporting the `replace-region-contents` API are much
>> smaller than the "sounded minor" annoyances we'd have to pay for the
>> rest of Emacs's future.
>
> AFAIU, the `replace-buffer-contents` API exists because:
>
>> There are many tools (e.g. auto-formatters) that take buffer
>> contents, reformat them, and write the reformatted output somewhere.
>> However, there is no good way how to apply the modified output to the
>> source buffer.  The naive way (erasing and re-inserting the buffer
>> contents) loses point and markers.  Therefore there should be a
>> function (e.g. `replace-buffer-contents') that calculates a minimal
>> diff between the old and the new contents and uses editing operations
>> (insert, delete, etc.) to apply the diff.  Ideally this would be done
>> without any external tools (e.g. 'diff').
>   https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=25355

That's true.  I use it frequently (through json-pretty-print-buffer) to
format minimized JSON replies from REST-APIs.  It would be a bummer if
point moved to the end of the buffer contents after formatting.  But it
can be unbearable slow if the region is very large and the replacement
text differs a lot from the current text.  That's why it has these
strange MAX-SECS and MAX-COSTS arguments.

> This sounds quite specialized to my mind, and the API is also quite
> complicated.  I think it's a fine addition for this use case, but I'd
> suggest renaming it to something that highlights its specialized
> nature.
>
> The `replace-region-contents' function builds on that, and similarly
> has a complicated calling convention.  I think it should similarly be
> renamed to highlight its specialized nature.

Fine with me but we have to consider that it's already used in the wild.
I remember submitting patches to at least restclient.el (which only uses
it through json-pretty-print-buffer so wouldn't be affected by renaming)
and hindent.el, see
https://github.com/mihaimaruseac/hindent/blob/master/elisp/hindent.el#L220.
Maybe there are other callers in third-party packages.

> Meanwhile, according to what we have learned in Bug#71370, many users
> are currently using this:
>
>     (setf (buffer-substring START END) "foo")

That's actually quite elegant (although it gives an obsolecence
warning).  It never occured to me that (buffer-substring START END) was
a generalized variable.

> I think this shows the need for a more low-level operation, and
> `replace-region` seems to fit this use case exactly.  So I would be in
> favor of installing it.

IMHO, it should at least reference replace-region-contents from its
docstring and explain the difference (and vice-versa).

Bye,
Tassilo
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of
text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:

>> It's up to you, but I still think that by a relatively simple and
>> backward-compatible change to the API of replace-region-contents we
>> could have a new mode of that function which would do what you wanted.
>> I still don't understand why you rejected that, the reasons you gave
>> sounded minor to me, certainly not important enough to throw in the
>> towel.
>
> The benefits of supporting the `replace-region-contents` API are much
> smaller than the "sounded minor" annoyances we'd have to pay for the
> rest of Emacs's future.

AFAIU, the `replace-buffer-contents` API exists because:

> There are many tools (e.g. auto-formatters) that take buffer contents,
> reformat them, and write the reformatted output somewhere.  However,
> there is no good way how to apply the modified output to the source
> buffer.  The naive way (erasing and re-inserting the buffer contents)
> loses point and markers.  Therefore there should be a function
> (e.g. `replace-buffer-contents') that calculates a minimal diff between
> the old and the new contents and uses editing operations (insert,
> delete, etc.) to apply the diff.  Ideally this would be done without any
> external tools (e.g. 'diff').
  https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=25355

This sounds quite specialized to my mind, and the API is also quite
complicated.  I think it's a fine addition for this use case, but I'd
suggest renaming it to something that highlights its specialized nature.

The `replace-region-contents' function builds on that, and similarly has
a complicated calling convention.  I think it should similarly be
renamed to highlight its specialized nature.

Meanwhile, according to what we have learned in Bug#71370, many users
are currently using this:

    (setf (buffer-substring START END) "foo")

I think this shows the need for a more low-level operation, and
`replace-region` seems to fit this use case exactly.  So I would be in
favor of installing it.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
In-Reply-To: <86h64q6t87.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 19 Feb
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References: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org> <86seoecung.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> It's up to you, but I still think that by a relatively simple and
> backward-compatible change to the API of replace-region-contents we
> could have a new mode of that function which would do what you wanted.
> I still don't understand why you rejected that, the reasons you gave
> sounded minor to me, certainly not important enough to throw in the
> towel.

The benefits of supporting the `replace-region-contents` API are much
smaller than the "sounded minor" annoyances we'd have to pay for the
rest of Emacs's future.

And really, this whole discussion has been much too frustrating, for
such a trivial function which everyone can feel free to reinvent badly in
their own code.


        Stefan
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 13:59:04 +0200
Message-Id: <86h64q6t87.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwvtt8rxbnr.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
 Monnier on Tue, 18 Feb 2025 15:04:22 -0500)
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 76313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 15:04:22 -0500
> 
> > So basically, you reject every attempt to compromise that I could come
> > up with, and keep pressing for your original proposal, whose downsides
> > I prefer not to sustain.  Are you really saying that your way is the
> > only way? why?
> 
> Never mind,

It's up to you, but I still think that by a relatively simple and
backward-compatible change to the API of replace-region-contents we
could have a new mode of that function which would do what you wanted.
I still don't understand why you rejected that, the reasons you gave
sounded minor to me, certainly not important enough to throw in the
towel.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
In-Reply-To: <86a5aj82zq.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 18 Feb
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> So basically, you reject every attempt to compromise that I could come
> up with, and keep pressing for your original proposal, whose downsides
> I prefer not to sustain.  Are you really saying that your way is the
> only way? why?

Never mind,


        Stefan
Notification sent to Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.
Reply sent to Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 21:30:33 +0200
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In-Reply-To: <jwvtt8ryyzl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 12:01:38 -0500
> 
> >> `replace-region-contents` is a bad API
> > Why is it bad?
> 
> - REPLACE-FN is never useful, it's always just as easy (and marginally
>   more efficient) to compute the replacement beforehand.
> - It defaults to being expensive, whereas most potential users of
>   `replace-region` currently use insert+delete-region and thus would
>   need to pass an extra "cheaply" argument for fear of being impacted by
>   a slowdown.
> - MAX-COSTS is ill-defined.
> 
> Also, personally I must say that I'd be happier calling `replace-region`
> than `replace-region-contents`, just because it's shorter.
> 
> Given that `replace-region-contents` is fairly new and very little used,
> I don't see much gain in trying to fit within its API.

So basically, you reject every attempt to compromise that I could come
up with, and keep pressing for your original proposal, whose downsides
I prefer not to sustain.  Are you really saying that your way is the
only way? why?
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
In-Reply-To: <86msej8du2.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 18 Feb
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>> `replace-region-contents` is a bad API
> Why is it bad?

- REPLACE-FN is never useful, it's always just as easy (and marginally
  more efficient) to compute the replacement beforehand.
- It defaults to being expensive, whereas most potential users of
  `replace-region` currently use insert+delete-region and thus would
  need to pass an extra "cheaply" argument for fear of being impacted by
  a slowdown.
- MAX-COSTS is ill-defined.

Also, personally I must say that I'd be happier calling `replace-region`
than `replace-region-contents`, just because it's shorter.

Given that `replace-region-contents` is fairly new and very little used,
I don't see much gain in trying to fit within its API.


        Stefan
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwvpljf1jh5.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 08:30:16 -0500
> 
> >  (replace-buffer-contents SOURCE &optional MAX-SECS MAX-COSTS CHEAP-AND-RECKLESS)
> 
> Hmm... I don't think people will be happy to replace their
> 
>     (insert foo)
>     (delete-region from to)
> 
> with
> 
>     (save-restriction
>       (narrow-to-region from to)
>       (replace-buffer-contents foo nil nil 'cheap))
> 
> Without mentioning that it would be a backward-incompatible change because
> currently `replace-buffer-contents` considers a string argument as the
> name of a buffer.

Then how about reimplementing replace-region-contents in C, and making
a similar change (an additional optional arg) to it instead?

> `replace-region-contents` is a bad API

Why is it bad?
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
In-Reply-To: <86ldu3a18y.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 18 Feb
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>  (replace-buffer-contents SOURCE &optional MAX-SECS MAX-COSTS CHEAP-AND-RECKLESS)

Hmm... I don't think people will be happy to replace their

    (insert foo)
    (delete-region from to)

with

    (save-restriction
      (narrow-to-region from to)
      (replace-buffer-contents foo nil nil 'cheap))

Without mentioning that it would be a backward-incompatible change because
currently `replace-buffer-contents` considers a string argument as the
name of a buffer.

> where, if CHEAP-AND-RECKLESS is non-nil, we call replace_region
> disregarding what will that do to markers and overlays?  If you want
> to support INHERIT, CHEAP-AND-RECKLESS could be also non-nil and non-t
> to indicate that.

FWIW, `minibuffer--replace` seems to want INHERIT at the same time as
"fancy".  Tho I must admit that I can't remember why I needed
INHERIT there.  Maybe because of insertion in a field?

> I can live with that; at least we stay with the
> same 2 APIs, of which one is implemented on top of the other.

`replace-region-contents` is a bad API (the REPLACE-FN part is a bad
idea, all the callers I could find would be better served if they could
pass a string instead): we should obsolete it.


        Stefan
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 22:38:22 -0500
> 
> Stefan Monnier [2025-02-17 15:55:04] wrote:
> > I just want a simple function which does the same as
> > `insert+delete-region`, just as efficiently, without having to think
> > about which way is best (should I delete first, or insert first?
> > If I insert first, should I insert at FROM, or at TO, or in the
> > middle?  You can find pretty much all variations out there, several
> > times with comments showing that the coders did have to waste time
> > thinking about it).
> 
> IOW, just like `oddp/evenp` saves coders the trouble of wondering
> whether to implement it using `%` or `logand` or whatnot.

Assuming that people will know what is "odd" and what is "even" better
and easier than they know their mathematical definitions...
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwvy0y49w9z.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
 Monnier on Mon, 17 Feb 2025 15:55:04 -0500)
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 15:55:04 -0500
> 
> >> So does that mean you're OK with my new `replace-region`, and that
> >> I should open a new bug-report with a proposal for how to merge
> >> `replace-region-contents` and `replace-buffer-contents`?
> >> 
> >> Or something else?
> >
> > You suggested to merge replace-region-contents with
> > replace-buffer-contents when replace-region was not on the table at
> > all.  I'm still not sure we want a 3rd API for this purpose.
> 
> I just want a simple function which does the same as
> `insert+delete-region`, just as efficiently, without having to think
> about which way is best (should I delete first, or insert first?
> If I insert first, should I insert at FROM, or at TO, or in the
> middle?  You can find pretty much all variations out there, several
> times with comments showing that the coders did have to waste time
> thinking about it).

How come we never needed it until now, even though insdel.c can
replace buffer text since day one?  And are you sure that the way you
implement it by calling replace_region, this will produce exactly the
variation that everyone wants?

I thought at some point you suggested allowing to extend the
REPLACE-FN argument of replace-region-contents to be a string, and I
agreed to that (had the same idea, actually, while reading your OP).
But now you are going back to basically your original proposal? why?

> `replace-buffer/region-contents` is not a valid answer because it's
> a lot more costly.  Do you want me to merge them all into a single
> monster `replace-region` function and mark the other two as obsolete:

No, but how about

 (replace-buffer-contents SOURCE &optional MAX-SECS MAX-COSTS CHEAP-AND-RECKLESS)

where, if CHEAP-AND-RECKLESS is non-nil, we call replace_region
disregarding what will that do to markers and overlays?  If you want
to support INHERIT, CHEAP-AND-RECKLESS could be also non-nil and non-t
to indicate that.  I can live with that; at least we stay with the
same 2 APIs, of which one is implemented on top of the other.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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Stefan Monnier [2025-02-17 15:55:04] wrote:
> I just want a simple function which does the same as
> `insert+delete-region`, just as efficiently, without having to think
> about which way is best (should I delete first, or insert first?
> If I insert first, should I insert at FROM, or at TO, or in the
> middle?  You can find pretty much all variations out there, several
> times with comments showing that the coders did have to waste time
> thinking about it).

IOW, just like `oddp/evenp` saves coders the trouble of wondering
whether to implement it using `%` or `logand` or whatnot.


        Stefan
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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>> So does that mean you're OK with my new `replace-region`, and that
>> I should open a new bug-report with a proposal for how to merge
>> `replace-region-contents` and `replace-buffer-contents`?
>> 
>> Or something else?
>
> You suggested to merge replace-region-contents with
> replace-buffer-contents when replace-region was not on the table at
> all.  I'm still not sure we want a 3rd API for this purpose.

I just want a simple function which does the same as
`insert+delete-region`, just as efficiently, without having to think
about which way is best (should I delete first, or insert first?
If I insert first, should I insert at FROM, or at TO, or in the
middle?  You can find pretty much all variations out there, several
times with comments showing that the coders did have to waste time
thinking about it).

`replace-buffer/region-contents` is not a valid answer because it's
a lot more costly.  Do you want me to merge them all into a single
monster `replace-region` function and mark the other two as obsolete:

    (replace-region FROM TO REPLACEMENT &optional INHERIT CAREFULLY)

- REPLACEMENT can be a string or a buffer object (not a buffer name!).
  I'd drop support for `replace-region-contents`s function
  because one can just as easily run the function before calling
  `replace-region(-contents)` (which may also save us from building
  a closure).
-  INHERIT would specify whether to "insert-and-inherit" (used by
  `minibuffer--replace`).
- CAREFULLY if non-nil requests a costly replacement which minimizes
  impact on markers and such.  It can be a symbol or a list (MAX-SECS
  MAX-COSTS), tho I hate that ill-defined MAX-COSTS thingy, so if we
  could replace it with something better defined that would be sweet.
- I'd make it return nil since it seems that the return value of
  `replace-buffer-contents` is not used anywhere (well, except in
  `files-tests-revert-buffer-with-fine-grain` where we could replace it
  with a test that some marker was indeed properly preserved rather
  than blindly believing the return value of `revert-buffer-with-fine-grain`).

I can do that.


        Stefan
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 10:03:26 -0500
> 
> >> >> I'm not sure it'd be a good idea, tho: `replace-region-contents` is
> >> >> a "heavy" operation, involving narrowing and another buffer, whereas
> >> >> `replace-region` is meant to be a low-level operation (if we implement
> >> >> it in C, we could arguably use it as *the* low-level operation and
> >> >> define `insert` and `delete-region` on top of it).
> >> >
> >> > On the downside, we already have 2 APIs for this, so having a 3rd one
> >> > will only make the confusion more prominent.
> >> 
> >> We could start by merging `replace-region-contents` and
> >> `replace-buffer-contents`.
> >
> > Fine by me, thanks.
> 
> So does that mean you're OK with my new `replace-region`, and that
> I should open a new bug-report with a proposal for how to merge
> `replace-region-contents` and `replace-buffer-contents`?
> 
> Or something else?

You suggested to merge replace-region-contents with
replace-buffer-contents when replace-region was not on the table at
all.  I'm still not sure we want a 3rd API for this purpose.
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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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>> >> I'm not sure it'd be a good idea, tho: `replace-region-contents` is
>> >> a "heavy" operation, involving narrowing and another buffer, whereas
>> >> `replace-region` is meant to be a low-level operation (if we implement
>> >> it in C, we could arguably use it as *the* low-level operation and
>> >> define `insert` and `delete-region` on top of it).
>> >
>> > On the downside, we already have 2 APIs for this, so having a 3rd one
>> > will only make the confusion more prominent.
>> 
>> We could start by merging `replace-region-contents` and
>> `replace-buffer-contents`.
>
> Fine by me, thanks.

So does that mean you're OK with my new `replace-region`, and that
I should open a new bug-report with a proposal for how to merge
`replace-region-contents` and `replace-buffer-contents`?

Or something else?


        Stefan
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Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2025 21:45:03 -0500
> 
> >> I'm not sure it'd be a good idea, tho: `replace-region-contents` is
> >> a "heavy" operation, involving narrowing and another buffer, whereas
> >> `replace-region` is meant to be a low-level operation (if we implement
> >> it in C, we could arguably use it as *the* low-level operation and
> >> define `insert` and `delete-region` on top of it).
> >
> > On the downside, we already have 2 APIs for this, so having a 3rd one
> > will only make the confusion more prominent.
> 
> We could start by merging `replace-region-contents` and
> `replace-buffer-contents`.

Fine by me, thanks.
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To: 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

> So I suggest the patch below.  Comments?  Objections?

Here's a better implementation, in C.
One advantage is that it runs the `after/before-change-functions` only once.
Also, I made it take an optional `inherit` argument so it can do the
same as `insert-and-inherit` (as is used in `minibuffer--replace`).
This version does not move point to the end of the new text.


        Stefan

--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-diff
Content-Disposition: inline; filename=replace-region.patch

diff --git a/src/editfns.c b/src/editfns.c
index f9258392146..c86d0b890a2 100644
--- a/src/editfns.c
+++ b/src/editfns.c
@@ -2654,6 +2654,22 @@ DEFUN ("delete-and-extract-region", Fdelete_and_extract_region,
     return empty_unibyte_string;
   return del_range_1 (XFIXNUM (start), XFIXNUM (end), 1, 1);
 }
+
+DEFUN ("replace-region", Freplace_region, Sreplace_region, 3, 4, 0,
+       doc: /* Replace region FROM..TO with STRING.
+Does not move point, like `delete-region' but unlike `insert'.
+If optional arg INHERIT, then text properties are inherited from
+context like `insert-and-inherit'.  */)
+  (Lisp_Object from, Lisp_Object to, Lisp_Object string, Lisp_Object inherit)
+{
+  validate_region (&from, &to);
+  CHECK_STRING (string);
+  /* SET_PT (XFIXNUM (to)); */
+  replace_range (XFIXNUM (from), XFIXNUM (to), string,
+		 /* FIXME: Should we update search regs?  */
+		 true, !NILP (inherit), true, false, false);
+  return Qnil;
+}
 
 /* Alist of buffers in which labeled restrictions are used.  The car
    of each list element is a buffer, the cdr is a list of triplets
@@ -4929,6 +4945,7 @@ syms_of_editfns (void)
   defsubr (&Stranslate_region_internal);
   defsubr (&Sdelete_region);
   defsubr (&Sdelete_and_extract_region);
+  defsubr (&Sreplace_region);
   defsubr (&Swiden);
   defsubr (&Snarrow_to_region);
   defsubr (&Sinternal__labeled_narrow_to_region);
diff --git a/test/src/editfns-tests.el b/test/src/editfns-tests.el
index 8d4e7bc48fa..1b0fe30f8ce 100644
--- a/test/src/editfns-tests.el
+++ b/test/src/editfns-tests.el
@@ -305,6 +305,29 @@ replace-buffer-contents-bug31837
   (should (equal (buffer-substring-no-properties (point-min) (point-max))
                  (concat (string (char-from-name "SMILE")) "1234"))))
 
+(ert-deftest editfns-tests--replace-region ()
+  (with-temp-buffer
+    (insert "here is some text")
+    (let ((m5n (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 5)))
+          (m5a (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 5) t))
+          (m6n (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 6)))
+          (m6a (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 6) t))
+          (m7n (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 7)))
+          (m7a (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 7) t)))
+      (replace-region (+ (point-min) 5) (+ (point-min) 7) "was")
+      (should (equal (buffer-string) "here was some text"))
+      (should (equal (point) (point-max)))
+      ;; Markers before the replaced text stay before.
+      (should (= m5n (+ (point-min) 5)))
+      (should (= m5a (+ (point-min) 5)))
+      ;; Markers in the replaced text can end up at either end, depending
+      ;; on whether they're advance-after-insert or not.
+      (should (= m6n (+ (point-min) 5)))
+      (should (<= (+ (point-min) 5) m6a (+ (point-min) 8)))
+      ;; Markers after the replaced text stay after.
+      (should (= m7n (+ (point-min) 8)))
+      (should (= m7a (+ (point-min) 8))))))
+
 (ert-deftest delete-region-undo-markers-1 ()
   "Make sure we don't end up with freed markers reachable from Lisp."
   ;; https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=30931#40

--=-=-=--
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
In-Reply-To: <86mselbsbi.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 16 Feb
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References: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org> <86seoecung.fsf@HIDDEN>
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>> I'm not sure it'd be a good idea, tho: `replace-region-contents` is
>> a "heavy" operation, involving narrowing and another buffer, whereas
>> `replace-region` is meant to be a low-level operation (if we implement
>> it in C, we could arguably use it as *the* low-level operation and
>> define `insert` and `delete-region` on top of it).
>
> On the downside, we already have 2 APIs for this, so having a 3rd one
> will only make the confusion more prominent.

We could start by merging `replace-region-contents` and
`replace-buffer-contents`.
[ We should also improve their docstrings to give some hint about what
  kind of "diff" they're able to find.  E.g. do they use char/word/line
  granularity?  ]

> Who, apart of you and maybe me, will know or remember that those two
> are "heavy" whereas the 3rd one isn't,

Indeed, their name should be upfront about it.
I'd have expected a name like `replace-region-carefully`.

> And how to apply that knowledge to any concrete use case?

Apparently current callers don't have much difficulty choosing between
insert+delete-region and `replace-region-contents`, so I'm not
too worried.
I think the complexity of the API described in the docstring does the
trick to make sure people use the more expensive ones only when they
care enough about the difference.

> Also, if someone wants a "simple" implementation that doesn't care
> about being destructive and clobbering markers, properties, etc., why
> can't they indeed do the delete-region + insert dance?

They can.  But using the new `replace-region` is simpler for them, with
the side benefit that it will behave (slightly) better.
That's kind of the point of `replace-region`: to be a no-brainer
replacement for insert+delete-region.


        Stefan
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2025 21:30:41 +0200
Message-Id: <86mselbsbi.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwvr03xzuvz.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
 Monnier on Sun, 16 Feb 2025 12:17:04 -0500)
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
References: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org> <86seoecung.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvr03xzuvz.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2025 12:17:04 -0500
> 
> >> So I suggest the patch below.  Comments?  Objections?
> > What's wrong with replace-buffer-contents or replace-region-contents?
> 
> Yeah, I'm not super happy about that situation, but here are my reasons:
> 
> - On the API side: They're inconvenient replacements because they require
>   either changing the narrowing or wrapping the replacement string into
>   a closure.  Not the end of the world, but AFAICT, `replace-region` is
>   a quite common operation (the patch I sent only replaces a couple of
>   use-cases, but I know there are much more).
> 
> - On the implementation side: They are significantly more expensive (fancier).
> 
> Maybe we should merge some of them.  E.g. we could merge my
> proposed `replace-region` with `replace-region-contents` as follow:
> 
> - Allow REPLACE-FN to be a string rather than a function.

I immediately thought of this extension when I saw your proposal.

> I'm not sure it'd be a good idea, tho: `replace-region-contents` is
> a "heavy" operation, involving narrowing and another buffer, whereas
> `replace-region` is meant to be a low-level operation (if we implement
> it in C, we could arguably use it as *the* low-level operation and
> define `insert` and `delete-region` on top of it).

On the downside, we already have 2 APIs for this, so having a 3rd one
will only make the confusion more prominent.  Who, apart of you and
maybe me, will know or remember that those two are "heavy" whereas the
3rd one isn't, especially given that replace-buffer-contents is
implemented in C?  And how to apply that knowledge to any concrete use
case?

Also, if someone wants a "simple" implementation that doesn't care
about being destructive and clobbering markers, properties, etc., why
can't they indeed do the delete-region + insert dance?
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
In-Reply-To: <86seoecung.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 16 Feb
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>> So I suggest the patch below.  Comments?  Objections?
> What's wrong with replace-buffer-contents or replace-region-contents?

Yeah, I'm not super happy about that situation, but here are my reasons:

- On the API side: They're inconvenient replacements because they require
  either changing the narrowing or wrapping the replacement string into
  a closure.  Not the end of the world, but AFAICT, `replace-region` is
  a quite common operation (the patch I sent only replaces a couple of
  use-cases, but I know there are much more).

- On the implementation side: They are significantly more expensive (fancier).

Maybe we should merge some of them.  E.g. we could merge my
proposed `replace-region` with `replace-region-contents` as follow:

- Allow REPLACE-FN to be a string rather than a function.
- If MAX-SECS/COSTS are both nil, then use the cheap implementation.
  I.e. only do the fancy diffing when one of MAX-SECS/COSTS is specified
  (could allow a `t` value to mean "do it the fancy way with default
  settings").

I'm not sure it'd be a good idea, tho: `replace-region-contents` is
a "heavy" operation, involving narrowing and another buffer, whereas
`replace-region` is meant to be a low-level operation (if we implement
it in C, we could arguably use it as *the* low-level operation and
define `insert` and `delete-region` on top of it).


        Stefan
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 76313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN)
Subject: Re: bug#76313: New function `replace-region`
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> Cc: monnier@HIDDEN
> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 17:18:15 -0500
> From:  Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
> 
> We often need to replace a chunk of buffer text with something else.
> It is easy enough to do with `insert` + `delete-region`, but that
> has suboptimal behavior w.r.t markers, so rather than let coders
> reinvent a slightly-better replacement I propose we add a dedicated
> function for it.
> 
> So I suggest the patch below.  Comments?  Objections?

What's wrong with replace-buffer-contents or replace-region-contents?
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: New function `replace-region`
Message-ID: <jwv4j0u50tn.fsf-monnier+@gnu.org>
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

Tags: patch

We often need to replace a chunk of buffer text with something else.
It is easy enough to do with `insert` + `delete-region`, but that
has suboptimal behavior w.r.t markers, so rather than let coders
reinvent a slightly-better replacement I propose we add a dedicated
function for it.

So I suggest the patch below.  Comments?  Objections?


        Stefan

--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/patch
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=replace-region.patch

diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index 6d934b2029c..189ee92dac8 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -1265,6 +1265,9 @@ restore the old behavior, you can set 'eshell-pwd-convert-function' to
 
 * Lisp Changes in Emacs 31.1
 
+** New function 'replace-region'.
+Acts like delete-region+insert, but preserves markers more carefully.
+
 ** Time & Date
 
 +++
diff --git a/lisp/language/japan-util.el b/lisp/language/japan-util.el
index c61e98c8fca..2be202ce5fe 100644
--- a/lisp/language/japan-util.el
+++ b/lisp/language/japan-util.el
@@ -215,11 +215,7 @@ japanese-zenkaku
     (or (get-char-code-property obj 'jisx0208)
 	obj)))
 
-(defun japanese-replace-region (from to string)
-  "Replace the region specified by FROM and TO to STRING."
-  (goto-char from)
-  (insert string)
-  (delete-char (- to from)))
+(define-obsolete-function-alias 'japanese-replace-region #'replace-region "31")
 
 ;;;###autoload
 (defun japanese-katakana-region (from to &optional hankaku)
diff --git a/lisp/minibuffer.el b/lisp/minibuffer.el
index 19b78173792..dc436bf65fa 100644
--- a/lisp/minibuffer.el
+++ b/lisp/minibuffer.el
@@ -1421,6 +1421,7 @@ completion--replace
       (setq end (- end suffix-len))
       (setq newtext (substring newtext 0 (- suffix-len))))
     (goto-char beg)
+    ;; FIXME: Use `replace-region'?
     (let ((length (- end beg)))         ;Read `end' before we insert the text.
       (insert-and-inherit newtext)
       (delete-region (point) (+ (point) length)))
diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake-proc.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake-proc.el
index df6571311e4..0da85e1c053 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake-proc.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake-proc.el
@@ -331,7 +331,7 @@ flymake-proc--find-possible-master-files
       (setq dirs (cdr dirs)))
     (when files
       (let ((flymake-proc--included-file-name (file-name-nondirectory file-name)))
-	(setq files (sort files 'flymake-proc--master-file-compare))))
+	(setq files (sort files #'flymake-proc--master-file-compare))))
     (flymake-log 3 "found %d possible master file(s)" (length files))
     files))
 
@@ -407,9 +407,10 @@ flymake-proc--check-patch-master-file-buffer
                   ;;  replace-match is not used here as it fails in
                   ;; XEmacs with 'last match not a buffer' error as
                   ;; check-includes calls replace-in-string
-                  (flymake-proc--replace-region
-                   match-beg match-end
-                   (file-name-nondirectory patched-source-file-name))))
+                  (save-excursion
+                    (replace-region
+                     match-beg match-end
+                     (file-name-nondirectory patched-source-file-name)))))
               (forward-line 1)))
           (when found
             (flymake-proc--save-buffer-in-file patched-master-file-name)))
@@ -424,11 +425,9 @@ flymake-proc--check-patch-master-file-buffer
 ;;; XXX: remove
 (defun flymake-proc--replace-region (beg end rep)
   "Replace text in BUFFER in region (BEG END) with REP."
+  (declare (obsolete replace-region "31"))
   (save-excursion
-    (goto-char end)
-    ;; Insert before deleting, so as to better preserve markers's positions.
-    (insert rep)
-    (delete-region beg end)))
+    (replace-region beg end rep)))
 
 (defun flymake-proc--read-file-to-temp-buffer (file-name)
   "Insert contents of FILE-NAME into newly created temp buffer."
diff --git a/lisp/subr.el b/lisp/subr.el
index 77e909d1bf6..267ae741052 100644
--- a/lisp/subr.el
+++ b/lisp/subr.el
@@ -4680,6 +4680,24 @@ insert-into-buffer
     (with-current-buffer buffer
       (insert-buffer-substring current start end))))
 
+(defun replace-region (from to string)
+  "Replace text in buffer between FROM and TO with STRING.
+Moves point to the end of STRING."
+  (let ((to (+ to 0)))             ;Convert to integer if it's a marker.
+    (goto-char to)
+    (if (= from to)
+        (insert string)
+      ;; FIXME: Arguably, move-after-insertion markers found inside the
+      ;; FROM..TO region should be moved to the new end of the region
+      ;; rather than to the beginning.
+      ;; FIXME: We should call the before/after-change-functions only once
+      ;; (the best way to do that is probably to move it to `insdel.c').
+      ;; FIXME: Should we be careful to notice when a prefix/suffix of STRING
+      ;; is already a prefix/suffix of the FROM..TO region and refrain
+      ;; from touching it?
+      (insert-before-markers string)
+      (delete-region from to))))
+
 (defun replace-string-in-region (string replacement &optional start end)
   "Replace STRING with REPLACEMENT in the region from START to END.
 The number of replaced occurrences are returned, or nil if STRING
@@ -4703,8 +4721,7 @@ replace-string-in-region
       (let ((matches 0)
             (case-fold-search nil))
         (while (search-forward string nil t)
-          (delete-region (match-beginning 0) (match-end 0))
-          (insert replacement)
+          (replace-region (match-beginning 0) (match-end 0) replacement)
           (setq matches (1+ matches)))
         (and (not (zerop matches))
              matches)))))
diff --git a/test/lisp/subr-tests.el b/test/lisp/subr-tests.el
index 5b17c598efa..642071f825b 100644
--- a/test/lisp/subr-tests.el
+++ b/test/lisp/subr-tests.el
@@ -996,6 +996,29 @@ test-buffer-local-boundp
     (should-not (buffer-local-boundp 'test-not-boundp buf))
     (should (buffer-local-boundp 'test-global-boundp buf))))
 
+(ert-deftest subr-tests--replace-region ()
+  (with-temp-buffer
+    (insert "here is some text")
+    (let ((m5n (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 5)))
+          (m5a (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 5) t))
+          (m6n (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 6)))
+          (m6a (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 6) t))
+          (m7n (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 7)))
+          (m7a (copy-marker (+ (point-min) 7) t)))
+      (replace-region (+ (point-min) 5) (+ (point-min) 7) "was")
+      (should (equal (buffer-string) "here was some text"))
+      (should (equal (point) (+ (point-min) 8)))
+      ;; Markers before the replaced text stay before.
+      (should (= m5n (+ (point-min) 5)))
+      (should (= m5a (+ (point-min) 5)))
+      ;; Markers in the replaced text can end up at either end, depending
+      ;; on whether they're advance-after-insert or not.
+      (should (= m6n (+ (point-min) 5)))
+      (should (<= (+ (point-min) 5) m6a (+ (point-min) 8)))
+      ;; Markers after the replaced text stay after.
+      (should (= m7n (+ (point-min) 8)))
+      (should (= m7a (+ (point-min) 8))))))
+
 (ert-deftest test-replace-string-in-region ()
   (with-temp-buffer
     (insert "foo bar zot foobar")

--=-=-=--
Acknowledgement sent to Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to monnier@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to monnier@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#76313; Package emacs. Full text available.
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