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From: Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] A better name for the default branch
In-Reply-To: <87iko03uzg.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?=
=?utf-8?Q?=22's?= message of "Sun, 23 Mar 2025 11:24:35 +0100")
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Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2025 19:53:57 +0100
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Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN>,
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Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> writes:
> Hello,
>
> Leo Famulari <leo@HIDDEN> skribis:
>
>> I think I share Simon's point of view on this proposal. I'm basically
>> indifferent about the outcome of the proposal. I'd want to see a group
>> effort on enumerating, testing, and solving the technical challenges
>> before we make the change. There has been some discussion about that. I
>> think we should be careful about the technical stuff.
>
> I agree. It seems to me that the document proposes something doable and
> reasonable technically, but having more eyeballs would help find
> omissions or potential issues.
>
> FWIW I renamed the default branch of a few repositories over the past
> few years, notably Cuirass and Shepherd; it was rather friction-less but
> of course these are smaller repos with fewer contributors.
Coincidentally, guix-cuirass and shepherd are the only two repositories
I mirror that have the wrong default branch in my cgit instance. Now I
know why, I have probably started mirroring before this change was done
and have missed the announcement about the change. I should figure out
how to fix it...
Tomas
--=20
There are only two hard things in Computer Science:
cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors.
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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Sun, 23 Mar 2025 18:43:20 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.soverin.net; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=elenq.tech header.i=@elenq.tech header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=soverin1 header.b=i3BBsDOj; dkim-atps=neutral DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=elenq.tech; s=soverin1; t=1742755401; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=aukXaf5kAivj/XFvlxO/ntdGk6xTUWThQoEp41WMVbI=; b=i3BBsDOjna2TlZ8CX7vDtfHB0D6cIrPY6tpKA+04Q4cwnL5loy9U0sObPREUvAkYn5VyxN eeY6PBKBfRv4Bc4m6SGgrFzSn70/J1h6mLma5SggNF0KqO1J5CrOYAUb2Dp8ncd+G0qFeq V0tNR0GVVJRgso2EvjKKksnsfM5iNYgtMM322klKqF9i/Y9ALMtG+meoqFwJqn37IfToxd 7UYy8+A4pOow+nDwPFlAfzQowgl7imssvq9+AP4X/V6Y/n5yiL2/kRqQr0hg+s2nm1aT3g 4ifQeyvDtDbXJnHWDv5kZRreQe3zhMJImPEAEQGgkLobxV8LSAOt9e69TOlUJQ== X-CM-Envelope: MS4xfIMAh7S117ASTJyuGiBDQGI2UvW1U0FCZOnNpMRR5YvEAuAvQKctuoibSFNLgIQamg+yYjTk3Jfht58GmL8KijFmzS69soMpprmeLITLmoomVsnp3+UA Zohpz1LZh6rqYBdLtASgYUOfN/occif1BCWrk9Dv3gEX3+cbqSJJGLsI8gD//TvPN5hMbqzTS3j9E6F0JTO4cEBe1YfJBycjA2WE7aljl83oWtAz9pgIL5Pl eD7aO9ita3BaOny2l73r8KC7BbM1RinI6B3idyyKexU= X-CM-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=UsCZN/wB c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=67e05649 a=GfXQuWAYjYMZp4ahSyumlQ==:117 a=GfXQuWAYjYMZp4ahSyumlQ==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1oJP67jkp3AA:10 a=PjuYqXk4AAAA:8 a=b70gqUSrAAAA:8 a=08KIBUNhUCcKoSTSYI0A:9 a=3ZKOabzyN94A:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=ja02M9e7CsVl6cJUtNH0:22 a=yPy0HX4kI4LsAlP3oO-2:22 Message-ID: <8ecbe54e-f305-43ed-91c5-9f4608ac083a@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2025 19:43:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch To: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN>, Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>, =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> References: <d835c85c709a393309e6cad4ab065d039f1e08af.camel@HIDDEN> <f072096c292546c760d1342aa7d4f6c950027da9.camel@HIDDEN> <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> <87wmcm2sqc.fsf@HIDDEN> <49ba31a6-6f1d-4607-9169-95b7dc557cfb@HIDDEN> <871puq8hd8.fsf@HIDDEN> <738287cd-601e-482c-8af0-903381e38f3b@HIDDEN> <2445d6dff0a8edb8c00b30111a967c02c4da0987.camel@HIDDEN> Content-Language: en-US, es-ES, eu From: Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN> Autocrypt: addr=ekaitz@HIDDEN; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spampanel-Class: ham X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi On 2025-03-23 17:47, Liliana Marie Prikler wrote: >> The interesting way you are putting it is like you are trying to make >> me think my opinion or feelings are not that important, which is >> exactly my point against the change. I still didn't get any real >> person telling me they are hurt by the word 'master'. > What Simon is actually trying to achieve is to tell you that your > opinion is not *the only one* that matters. It may well be, that > everyone who thus far told you they are hurt by the word 'master' are > actually bots (beep boop) and/or engaging in US imperialism. But there > also exists a chance that you have thus far merely avoided – > deliberately or otherwise – any real person who could convince you that > it's hurtful. > Let's take a survey to get some actual numbers. According to [1], > master appears inoffensive to about 80% of people and offensive to less > than 10%, with the rest abstaining. Clearly, this must mean that > branch naming is a non-issue, right? Right? Sadly, it's not that > simple. For if you take a moment to consider that these people _are > real_ and they feel offended by the word master, perhaps there is > something offensive about it. This is not as a solid argument as you think. The survey was done years after the renaming campaign started, letting the idea of "master is bad" sink, the amount of people that took part is too low, and reddit is a biased community. Still, it only got a 10%. And the first comment in the thread, that has hundreds of upvotes says: "I am a black man and have no issue with the word "master" in the context of git branches. I am intelligent enough to know the difference between an electronic hierarchy and human suffrage and racism." On the other hand, the fact that some people is offended by something doesn't mean that thing is offensive. You can get offense on anything in the world, that doesn't mean you are right. Sadly, there's more than a 10% of population in the world (probably more around a 60% or so) that think trans people don't exist and are offended by them. Does that mean they are right? Does it mean we should please them, removing all references to trans people from the world? >> I'm "hurt" by this because this is the result of US American (moral) >> imperialism at work, and I reject it, as a citizen of the world. > Changes happen. Even if this were the result of US imperialism – which > for the record you keep postulating without evidence; at least as far > as I can see – you would have to find a way of dealing with it. Now, > you can choose to ignore that Git allows you to change the default > branch name and reject any proposal to do so, but I think not everyone > will do the same. I say it is related with the US because this originated on a campaign by an US corporation that exported the US thinking of trying to comfort others, censor swear words in tv and so on. I could talk for long about why that is related to their religion and so on... In any case, the point here is we should choose our fate. They imposed enough things on us, like the language, and we should now just apply this change because some US corporation lobbied for it and made some people think there was anything wrong with one specific word of the dictionary. You chose to follow them, and I chose to reject it. (Some had already shared their concerns about Guix's pronunciation, are we also open to change the project's name?) > As for only pleasing imaginary people, have you stopped to consider > that those in favour of the change could be real people and not > displeased by the change? Because it could just so happen to be that > some folks would prefer another name over master. Personally, I'm one > of them. I would feel quite happy with 'main' or 'trunk'; even > 'stable' if we could make that guarantee. Now, I am aware, that this > is all a preference and to an extent de gustibus, but I think we can > come to a shared preference that maximizes happiness and minimizes harm > for Guix contributors. I understand that you can *prefer* something else. I also prefer to talk in spanish and here we are. If I knew german, I would be happy to talk to you in german if we both agreed to it in those terms: preference. If you told me that speaking in any other language than german could offend people or hurt them I would reject your arguments, which is what I'm doing here. I don't care to use master, main, guix, or anything else. That's not the problem I'm pointing to. Maybe the GDC should be called: Let's change the branch name to something I like more. It would be fairer that way, but it may have more risk to be rejected. >> This discussion has been just some people agreeing and >> not explaining while they called others fascists or told them they >> SHOULD KNOW why we need to do this to become more inclusive. > Which of these mails [2,3] called others fascist? Do feel free to > point out ones that don't appear in either query and quote them. You told me to educate myself in "far-right dog-whistles" implying another person was using them, and thus implying they were far-right extremists. Maybe I took it too seriously. (Also that person had called the proposal "woke" and I don't like that framing either) >> I think it is my right (as it is of others) as part of the community >> to demand some explanation for the change, and for ANY change, the >> same way I would demand explanations for commits I don't understand. >> Isn't that my job here? > That ought to be covered in the Motivation of a GCD, no? I personally > feel motivated by it. You're free to feel differently, I have no > control over you. But I don't think it's fair to say there's no > explanation. Well, the explanation is quite vague, and does not include possible drawbacks like the social price we are paying for it. Some may think that's because you were wiling to pay it. In the document I read "may be perceived as harmful" or "that spring to mind more easily" but both are vague suggestions of a possible harm. Nothing that actually exists. Every word may be perceived as harmful. People that supports your proposal do it for preference, but not because they are actually hurt by the word "master". It is fine, though. >> In the end, this has been put as those who reject the change are >> against social justice, and that's not an acceptable way to propose >> anything because it eliminates any possibility for a debate and >> erases the chance of anyone to be against the change. Reducing the >> issue to "If you confront -> you are against social justice". > So, assuming that you are for social justice, but against this change, > do you think this change constitutes a social injustice? > Or; assuming you are against social justice, would you rather not be > perceived as such? I think, this original let's rename the branches idea gained traction in the last years because it creates some social division where people could just check the default branch name of software projects to see if they were more left or right leaning and I don't like that. That's why I don't like it being applied here. Oftentimes this kind of proposals are made to stretch the project's social structure and try to find holes. We did have a similar episode with a patch being sent to the CoC for good initial reasons but what happened to be a person that claimed that trans women could not be considered women. I didn't read his intentions very well at the beginning, but if I'm not mistaken, you did. I think your proposal here is also a stretch in the social dynamics of a very diverse project. >> 6. I think the initial goal for the proposal was actually to look for >> confrontation. > Believe it or not, I actually was not prepared for the backlash I > received. I actually thought this would be a straight-forward change > to implement given the values that folks here share, and I'm not happy > to be proven wrong on that. Well, what happened here is what triggered my reserves since the very beginning, and I think I told you in the previous thread. You underestimated how diverse Guix is. Guix has people from all over the globe, and it shouldn't surprise you that many people here were not affected by the original push for the branch rename as much as you were. When I took part in the discussion it wasn't only in my name. Surely I could be more precise on it, but I tried to make you understand that those things that we consider superobvious (master might be offensive -> we change it) might not be so obvious to others, and we might pay a social price for discussing them in the terms you did. In a previous email I asked what would happen if we started a discussion about putting a "free palestine" label in the Guix website. Many software projects did that (also with Ukranian flags). The problem here is also related with what Ludovic mentioned: he changed the branch name in the shepherd without any hassle. He surely could put the "free palestine" label in the Shepherd website easily. But Guix is a global project, and thinking such a proposal would not have any backlash is very naive. That's why I think we should refrain from trying this kind of "very obvious" changes that are really rooted in our political views. We might be asking for too much for such a diverse group of people. Best, Ekaitz > Cheers > > [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/dotnet/comments/wrci66/is_the_name_master_branch_offensive/ > [2] https://yhetil.org/guix-devel/?q=fascist+s%3Amain+s%3Abranch > [3] https://yhetil.org/guix-patches/?q=fascist+s%3A76407 >
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[85.127.114.32]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-43d4fceafacsm93051255e9.6.2025.03.23.09.47.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 23 Mar 2025 09:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2445d6dff0a8edb8c00b30111a967c02c4da0987.camel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch From: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> To: Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN>, Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2025 17:47:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: <738287cd-601e-482c-8af0-903381e38f3b@HIDDEN> References: <d835c85c709a393309e6cad4ab065d039f1e08af.camel@HIDDEN> <f072096c292546c760d1342aa7d4f6c950027da9.camel@HIDDEN> <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> <87wmcm2sqc.fsf@HIDDEN> <49ba31a6-6f1d-4607-9169-95b7dc557cfb@HIDDEN> <871puq8hd8.fsf@HIDDEN> <738287cd-601e-482c-8af0-903381e38f3b@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.54.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Am Freitag, dem 21.03.2025 um 21:16 +0100 schrieb Ekaitz Zarraga: > Reasons behind it don't convince me, meaning that for me it's a > useless change that only wants to make some imaginary people more > comfortable making some real people uncomfortable. In my view, it's > stupid. What makes you uncomfortable about the proposed name? Is there any proposed alternative that you would like to see instead? If not, would you like to suggest an alternative? > The interesting way you are putting it is like you are trying to make > me think my opinion or feelings are not that important, which is > exactly my point against the change. I still didn't get any real > person telling me they are hurt by the word 'master'. What Simon is actually trying to achieve is to tell you that your opinion is not *the only one* that matters. It may well be, that everyone who thus far told you they are hurt by the word 'master' are actually bots (beep boop) and/or engaging in US imperialism. But there also exists a chance that you have thus far merely avoided =E2=80=93 deliberately or otherwise =E2=80=93 any real person who could convince you = that it's hurtful. Let's take a survey to get some actual numbers. According to [1], master appears inoffensive to about 80% of people and offensive to less than 10%, with the rest abstaining. Clearly, this must mean that branch naming is a non-issue, right? Right? Sadly, it's not that simple. For if you take a moment to consider that these people _are real_ and they feel offended by the word master, perhaps there is something offensive about it. Now, if you look into the comments, you will find some more arguments defending various people's choices of a default branch name that apply to their personal projects and what not. Some of those may be relevant to Guix, some of those may be not. As for arguments that are important to the Guix project, I think these would be or have been brought up in the discussion. > I'm "hurt" by this because this is the result of US American (moral)=20 > imperialism at work, and I reject it, as a citizen of the world. Changes happen. Even if this were the result of US imperialism =E2=80=93 w= hich for the record you keep postulating without evidence; at least as far as I can see =E2=80=93 you would have to find a way of dealing with it. No= w, you can choose to ignore that Git allows you to change the default branch name and reject any proposal to do so, but I think not everyone will do the same. > In summary, looks like we are more open to change things to please=20 > imaginary people than pleasing, lets say, just me, a real person, > that is actually part of the project. If our goal was pleasing those > that are uncomfortable, that would be a real debate to have. I am not convinced, that I should please you, particularly, rather than anyone else who participated in this process. If you have a reason as to why your opinion should be given special weight, I would like to hear it. As for only pleasing imaginary people, have you stopped to consider that those in favour of the change could be real people and not displeased by the change? Because it could just so happen to be that some folks would prefer another name over master. Personally, I'm one of them. I would feel quite happy with 'main' or 'trunk'; even 'stable' if we could make that guarantee. Now, I am aware, that this is all a preference and to an extent de gustibus, but I think we can come to a shared preference that maximizes happiness and minimizes harm for Guix contributors. > This discussion has been just some people agreeing and=20 > not explaining while they called others fascists or told them they=20 > SHOULD KNOW why we need to do this to become more inclusive. Which of these mails [2,3] called others fascist? Do feel free to point out ones that don't appear in either query and quote them. > I think it is my right (as it is of others) as part of the community > to demand some explanation for the change, and for ANY change, the > same way I would demand explanations for commits I don't understand. > Isn't that my job here? That ought to be covered in the Motivation of a GCD, no? I personally feel motivated by it. You're free to feel differently, I have no control over you. But I don't think it's fair to say there's no explanation. > In the end, this has been put as those who reject the change are > against social justice, and that's not an acceptable way to propose > anything because it eliminates any possibility for a debate and > erases the chance of anyone to be against the change. Reducing the > issue to "If you confront -> you are against social justice". So, assuming that you are for social justice, but against this change, do you think this change constitutes a social injustice? Or; assuming you are against social justice, would you rather not be perceived as such? > 6. I think the initial goal for the proposal was actually to look for > confrontation. Believe it or not, I actually was not prepared for the backlash I received. I actually thought this would be a straight-forward change to implement given the values that folks here share, and I'm not happy to be proven wrong on that. Cheers [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/dotnet/comments/wrci66/is_the_name_master_bran= ch_offensive/ [2] https://yhetil.org/guix-devel/?q=3Dfascist+s%3Amain+s%3Abranch [3] https://yhetil.org/guix-patches/?q=3Dfascist+s%3A76407
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
Full text available.Received: (at 76407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Mar 2025 10:54:36 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 23 06:54:36 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47928 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1twIyR-0007bC-SI for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Mar 2025 06:54:36 -0400 Received: from hera.aquilenet.fr ([185.233.100.1]:55604) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1twIyP-0007a1-O7 for 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Mar 2025 06:54:34 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hera.aquilenet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF1E82E; Sun, 23 Mar 2025 11:54:26 +0100 (CET) Authentication-Results: hera.aquilenet.fr; none X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavis at hera.aquilenet.fr Received: from hera.aquilenet.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hera.aquilenet.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10024) with ESMTP id eagLWW6yqkYX; Sun, 23 Mar 2025 11:54:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from ribbon (91-160-117-201.subs.proxad.net [91.160.117.201]) by hera.aquilenet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1B0166D1; Sun, 23 Mar 2025 11:54:25 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> To: Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#76407: [GCD] A better name for the default branch In-Reply-To: <49ba31a6-6f1d-4607-9169-95b7dc557cfb@HIDDEN> (Ekaitz Zarraga's message of "Tue, 18 Mar 2025 18:25:55 +0100") References: <d835c85c709a393309e6cad4ab065d039f1e08af.camel@HIDDEN> <f072096c292546c760d1342aa7d4f6c950027da9.camel@HIDDEN> <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> <87wmcm2sqc.fsf@HIDDEN> <49ba31a6-6f1d-4607-9169-95b7dc557cfb@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2025 11:54:25 +0100 Message-ID: <8734f43tlq.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: EEF1E82E X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.10 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM(-3.00)[-1.000]; BAYES_HAM(-3.00)[99.99%]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVRCPT(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,debbugs.gnu.org] X-Rspamd-Action: no action X-Spamd-Bar: ------ X-Rspamd-Server: hera X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Egun on Ekaitz, Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN> skribis: > Also, what drains me from this is not only the fact that this is an > unreasonable change in many levels, but the fact that those who push > for it don't care about being reasonable but do care about winning and > labeling others as "far right". [=E2=80=A6] I haven=E2=80=99t read in detail the previous discussion on guix-devel that= you must be referring to, but derogatory comments like those you report could be a violation of the code of conduct. At any rate, that and the =E2=80=9Cus vs. them=E2=80=9D rhetoric (as in =E2= =80=9Cthose who push for it=E2=80=9D) is unhelpful and very different from how I think we like to work together here. Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99.
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
Full text available.Received: (at 76407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Mar 2025 10:24:48 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 23 06:24:48 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47781 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1twIVb-0005ds-Dr for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Mar 2025 06:24:48 -0400 Received: from hera.aquilenet.fr ([185.233.100.1]:56764) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1twIVY-0005cz-78 for 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Mar 2025 06:24:45 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hera.aquilenet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E24382E; Sun, 23 Mar 2025 11:24:37 +0100 (CET) Authentication-Results: hera.aquilenet.fr; none X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavis at hera.aquilenet.fr Received: from hera.aquilenet.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hera.aquilenet.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9AB_8rXhRZEr; Sun, 23 Mar 2025 11:24:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from ribbon (91-160-117-201.subs.proxad.net [91.160.117.201]) by hera.aquilenet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 84B37221; Sun, 23 Mar 2025 11:24:36 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> To: Leo Famulari <leo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#76407: [GCD] A better name for the default branch In-Reply-To: <Z95BAoXPTySMg6lx@HIDDEN> (Leo Famulari's message of "Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:48:02 -0400") References: <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> <87wmcm2sqc.fsf@HIDDEN> <49ba31a6-6f1d-4607-9169-95b7dc557cfb@HIDDEN> <871puq8hd8.fsf@HIDDEN> <738287cd-601e-482c-8af0-903381e38f3b@HIDDEN> <Z95BAoXPTySMg6lx@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2025 11:24:35 +0100 Message-ID: <87iko03uzg.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 8E24382E X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.89 / 15.00]; SPAM_FLAG(5.00)[]; BAYES_HAM(-3.00)[99.99%]; NEURAL_SPAM(2.99)[0.998]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-Spam-Level: **** X-Rspamd-Action: no action X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ X-Rspamd-Server: hera X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Leo Famulari <leo@HIDDEN> skribis: > I think I share Simon's point of view on this proposal. I'm basically > indifferent about the outcome of the proposal. I'd want to see a group > effort on enumerating, testing, and solving the technical challenges > before we make the change. There has been some discussion about that. I > think we should be careful about the technical stuff. I agree. It seems to me that the document proposes something doable and reasonable technically, but having more eyeballs would help find omissions or potential issues. FWIW I renamed the default branch of a few repositories over the past few years, notably Cuirass and Shepherd; it was rather friction-less but of course these are smaller repos with fewer contributors. > Guix team members are the constituents of the GCD process. If some of > them have objections to a proposal, that means there is work to do, from > all of us. Agreed. Ludo=E2=80=99.
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:48:02 -0400 From: Leo Famulari <leo@HIDDEN> To: Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch Message-ID: <Z95BAoXPTySMg6lx@HIDDEN> References: <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> <87wmcm2sqc.fsf@HIDDEN> <49ba31a6-6f1d-4607-9169-95b7dc557cfb@HIDDEN> <871puq8hd8.fsf@HIDDEN> <738287cd-601e-482c-8af0-903381e38f3b@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <738287cd-601e-482c-8af0-903381e38f3b@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) I think I share Simon's point of view on this proposal. I'm basically indifferent about the outcome of the proposal. I'd want to see a group effort on enumerating, testing, and solving the technical challenges before we make the change. There has been some discussion about that. I think we should be careful about the technical stuff. On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 09:16:35PM +0100, Ekaitz Zarraga wrote: > In summary, looks like we are more open to change things to please imaginary > people than pleasing, lets say, just me, a real person, that is actually > part of the project. After I read Ekaitz's message here, I went back and read the thread. As I read it, Ekaitz's message highlights that there has not been much consensus-building. I think that when there is disagreement about a GCD, there needs to be be active work to build a consensus that is enthusiastic --- not indifferent. I've been intimately involved in organizations that govern themselves with a structured consensus system like the GCD process, and it's work that requires a lot of energy and strong social skills. My experience made me think that the range of topics that can be successfully handled with consensus may be limited to that which pertains to the shared experience of the members. Else, the group may not be able to actually reach a consensus, and maybe it comes to a vote, or some people just accept a change indifferently or with calculated resignation. (Those can be okay outcomes too, IMO, even the last one. You can't always get what you want.) My point is that we all share an experience with Guix, computing, Git, etc, but not with English language or the English and American societies. Guix team members are the constituents of the GCD process. If some of them have objections to a proposal, that means there is work to do, from all of us. To quote the Decision Making section of the GCD text itself (GCD 001): ------ Contributors and even more so team members are expected to help build consensus. By using consensus, we are committed to finding solutions that everyone can live with. Thus, no decision is made against significant concerns; these concerns are actively resolved through counter proposals. A deliberating member disapproving a proposal bears a responsibility for finding alternatives, proposing ideas or code, or explaining the rationale for the status quo. To learn what consensus decision making means and understand its finer details, you are encouraged to read <https://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/consensus>. ------
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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Fri, 21 Mar 2025 20:16:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.soverin.net (smtp.soverin.net [10.10.4.100]) by soverin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4ZKDHS0HDfzFH; Fri, 21 Mar 2025 20:16:35 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.soverin.net; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=elenq.tech header.i=@elenq.tech header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=soverin1 header.b=yBmQNIFc; dkim-atps=neutral DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=elenq.tech; s=soverin1; t=1742588196; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=7LDlPYpqFDXkP+Cv2YMJE9mu0pbnjXr3FsVrIrap8uc=; b=yBmQNIFc/Uv2wFeCIsqc+3lQO06AMeFWgj6gS/yYAIe/kzDVkugTwpj1h0C3dtagNES/67 CYSadZvKbTtGnUe2cjBdPXfz+FGrHYvhfSCDR1CQZlwBAVM8YOBNJcsZzEyM8/d9vehCOC E1BHVBJt897mM0c1ww/B6SIWS65EWmlzl/o0yPgoELnNLjb2Ugy8GR8MiWRaTorPJjuPm1 qriuayXRM3KYCAV5winGuwGgyxY93+dV95UNE+U/y/F9L2VOhDGytsvfSLejX8sqz2agh1 io2foWlQiLvRECbNn2GemxpCFUJGXrm4vRf4RVRUFASHjToUMAL3GVB4UdK84w== X-CM-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=d/oPyQjE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=67ddc924 a=GfXQuWAYjYMZp4ahSyumlQ==:117 a=GfXQuWAYjYMZp4ahSyumlQ==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1oJP67jkp3AA:10 a=rOA8YBIX8kW-EediuYoA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=yPy0HX4kI4LsAlP3oO-2:22 X-CM-Envelope: MS4xfPzNpZHZxrptieaO4Zd5lznbbQDkRRw/kxWmoFwie4cK9ZxDj6d0B7PL4c6HwrW04jAMhvodWXaO8vTY+OlGBe/YhDEga4e74SuWrjmZRv7NCnc/Kqoa 95L3uiaOMQyP5pBGzoyMEX/mFsshW6fzmVznqzkz6sw9T0r6o7uumARFVu8WBvwm+Pzbik22eLwSOMcFkYleymWiu10TOOrUyl3jgqQCNAe1EtHQUtDsLxEy Message-ID: <738287cd-601e-482c-8af0-903381e38f3b@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 21:16:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch To: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> References: <d835c85c709a393309e6cad4ab065d039f1e08af.camel@HIDDEN> <f072096c292546c760d1342aa7d4f6c950027da9.camel@HIDDEN> <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> <87wmcm2sqc.fsf@HIDDEN> <49ba31a6-6f1d-4607-9169-95b7dc557cfb@HIDDEN> <871puq8hd8.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Language: en-US From: Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN> Autocrypt: addr=ekaitz@HIDDEN; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spampanel-Class: ham X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Simon, I know this change is going to happen regardless of what those who oppose it think. That's why I just say I'm not convinced. Reasons behind it don't convince me, meaning that for me it's a useless change that only wants to make some imaginary people more comfortable making some real people uncomfortable. In my view, it's stupid. The interesting way you are putting it is like you are trying to make me think my opinion or feelings are not that important, which is exactly my point against the change. I still didn't get any real person telling me they are hurt by the word 'master'. I'm "hurt" by this because this is the result of US American (moral) imperialism at work, and I reject it, as a citizen of the world. And following your points, my opinion does NOT have a value, but ARGUMENTS do (or should have). That's how I wish projects were handled. We cannot please everybody, what I argue here is we are selecting who we please, using poor arguments, and talking about imaginary people. In summary, looks like we are more open to change things to please imaginary people than pleasing, lets say, just me, a real person, that is actually part of the project. If our goal was pleasing those that are uncomfortable, that would be a real debate to have. That's never been the goal of any of this, and that also I reject. This conversation has been confrontational, specially by who opened it in the name of inclusion and "making people comfortable". If that was the real concern, this was a pretty poor way to do it. So, I also reject the way this has been conducted. I've also been pretty critical about moving to a forge, and I shared my concerns about it in the past. But the way the proposal has been conducted is not confrontational, and its arguments are solid. I can't do anything else than support that change. That's how things should be done. About cider and pintxos, I have some homemade cider I'd love to share with you anytime, if you come for a visit. About meaningless things, it's not that this "appears" to be meaningless, it's that nobody even bothered to make it even reasonable. If we are really proposing a change, let me do my part and demand proper justifications. This discussion has been just some people agreeing and not explaining while they called others fascists or told them they SHOULD KNOW why we need to do this to become more inclusive. I think it is my right (as it is of others) as part of the community to demand some explanation for the change, and for ANY change, the same way I would demand explanations for commits I don't understand. Isn't that my job here? In the end, this has been put as those who reject the change are against social justice, and that's not an acceptable way to propose anything because it eliminates any possibility for a debate and erases the chance of anyone to be against the change. Reducing the issue to "If you confront -> you are against social justice". This (by itself, regardless if the change is stupid or not) only fosters division in our community, and I have to reject that too. So, if you prefer: I'm AGAINST the change because: 1. I don't think the proposal allowed honest discussion, so it's biased. 2. I don't think the proposal has any base. 3. I don't think the change will make the project more inclusive, but may be counterproductive. 4. The change does minimal harm, but more than an absolute zero. 5. I think this change opens the door to similar proposals, which I don't think are positive for the community, specially if they are conducted like this one. 6. I think the initial goal for the proposal was actually to look for confrontation. Tl;dr: I do NOT consent. Maybe if this whole thing was done differently I would, and I'm still open to ARGUMENTS that change my mind. In any case, I believe it's going to be done, regardless of what I share here, and some people will start to look at me with different eyes because of this. Thanks, I suppose. Best, Ekaitz
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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From: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>
To: Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch
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Hi Ekaitz,
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 at 18:25, Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> I can live with it, but I'm not convinced.
On my side, I do not think in term of =E2=80=9Cbeing convinced=E2=80=9C. I=
nstead, I do
my best to think in term of =E2=80=9Cdo I consent?=E2=80=9D
We do not need to be convinced by something to consent about it, IMHO,
Here, I refrain to ask myself if the current proposal is a good strategy
for tackling what it attempts to fix =E2=80=93 obviously, I have a (strong)
opinion too! Yes, as a geek I have opinions on many topics. :-)
However, here I hide behind this position:
1. What does my own opinion value?
And
2. Does the change hurt my principles?
For instance, assume I would not be convinced by <proposal>, i.e., I
would consider some proposed strategy would change absolutely nothing
about whatever <issue>; assume my conviction of this proposed strategy
would appear to me as the null strategy of the void. And instead, my
conviction would be about doing X and Y and maybe <issue> would be
deeper than human scale. The question still reads:
a)=C2=A0Does the <proposal> hurt my principles? If no,
=20=20
b)=C2=A0does the <proposal> block my conviction about what we should do
instead?
Cheers,
simon
PS: On many other points, I partially agree and I refrain to engage a
discussion=E2=80=A6 because such discussion deserves pintxo and some ci=
der
your country have the secret. :-)
> I understand, but this way of thinking only encourages more
> decisions that many "can live with", but they are not meaningful.
Yes, being social implies we consent to decision that appears to us
meaningless. When playing =E2=80=9Cwhich superpower would you like to
have?=E2=80=9C, my answer is always: being able to see the world as oth=
er
see it, because I would help me to deal with all these decisions
that appear to me meaningless.
=20=20=20=20
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
Full text available.Received: (at 76407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Mar 2025 17:26:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 18 13:26:10 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42976 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tuahe-00040o-1J for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 13:26:10 -0400 Received: from dane.soverin.net ([2a10:de80:1:4092:b9e9:229e:0:1]:57857) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ekaitz@HIDDEN>) id 1tuahZ-0003zH-1h for 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 13:26:07 -0400 Received: from smtp.soverin.net (c04smtp-lb01.int.sover.in [10.10.4.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by dane.soverin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4ZHJdw4Wv6z103V; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:25:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.soverin.net (smtp.soverin.net [10.10.4.99]) by soverin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4ZHJdw226gz5C; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:25:56 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.soverin.net; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=elenq.tech header.i=@elenq.tech header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=soverin1 header.b=XjF/cTNG; dkim-atps=neutral DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=elenq.tech; s=soverin1; t=1742318756; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=6nZvWROca+WWIp4oOCWCwBiGngxi1uf/bc9vmlpLjrY=; b=XjF/cTNGj58eDvB+43Mp+gQLh/eIG/FOwO4iv34HilpCX0o1wRRNsHqPnHgb5QtIOBbLXO MRnqRT1Qh+5sT4IhGYhyDgnY+3CWeEa8SMwfss836CXZk/c6R0WWAyRnqKMC05PZhLqnif T3Ip6fKtn2eWGVPQZsTKLgbl1F1KbxV3zMxt+eUwedWl9d7LIPn5AmBgHXZGxrSd9KPPvC fWuzNtzdvupoF01yx0XS2lavhrfKSCpP83c4hsGqE+/0FIipNEBeTz3RBKntgEYz4S/vSj 77osURzM4EnS675wNj/SYUiJCthmaeTd8k7ClKAXnVQewpDFocmsNbMDHWn/hA== X-CM-Envelope: MS4xfGXqqg+vul2ZZK90dW5C0Zr6cyoXmqGrH6euA6z3ZDgWJUu4UWIfXCtqPXdk5IbKk0VipW9+WlQtiHG8Sabcdw+nLIIhWzJr/f27XME2wIGWvYmTdMq4 yMyoaE6iIFzqyjXDxMJWXMbOlFXJ8uxb0AvvnILYP1ozLjfd8gMTp4F8EUL+Ta6c9d+j7s8ikmJ7lrkCm3ziGV4FXfb81uuMrFv9INNI03Sz9Dw/TBJTFrZE X-CM-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=UsCZN/wB c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=67d9aca4 a=GfXQuWAYjYMZp4ahSyumlQ==:117 a=GfXQuWAYjYMZp4ahSyumlQ==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1oJP67jkp3AA:10 a=owB4t5Ae9MUhKxgGOTAA:9 a=3ZKOabzyN94A:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=yPy0HX4kI4LsAlP3oO-2:22 Message-ID: <49ba31a6-6f1d-4607-9169-95b7dc557cfb@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 18:25:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch To: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> References: <d835c85c709a393309e6cad4ab065d039f1e08af.camel@HIDDEN> <f072096c292546c760d1342aa7d4f6c950027da9.camel@HIDDEN> <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> <87wmcm2sqc.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Language: en-US, es-ES, eu From: Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN> Autocrypt: addr=ekaitz@HIDDEN; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spampanel-Class: ham X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Simon > Let me share my reasoning, FWIW. When discussing such topics where I > don’t really feel personally concerned, I do not try to rationalize and > I refrain to ask myself if it is founded or not – slippery slope toward > time vortex –, and instead, I try to focus on what the change costs me > and I ask to myself if I can or if I cannot live with this change. > > Somehow, whatever if I rationally consider the rename deeply ridiculous > or highly important, or something in the middle, instead I answer: Ok, > it costs me nothing and I can live with this rename. Then I scrutinize > the details using the same frame. :-) I understand, but this way of thinking only encourages more decisions that many "can live with", but they are not meaningful. Also, what drains me from this is not only the fact that this is an unreasonable change in many levels, but the fact that those who push for it don't care about being reasonable but do care about winning and labeling others as "far right". Because that's what all this is about. Making others look like they are worse human beings because they don't match the political agenda of some (the only one that is right!). And this is simply disgusting. I reject not only the debate itself, but also its reasons and the way it has been conducted. I think it has been unfair to those who don't like the change. Of course, I can live with this. Same way those who ask for the change can live with 'master' (and have been doing so for almost 15 years in this community). I wouldn't say anybody is unable to live with one or the other. So, what are we doing here? It's just image. It's the same if someone proposes to put a "Free Palestine" flag in the Guix website. It's going to be an extremely divisive decision, that for no reason we need to take or even debate[^1]. But just proposing it is free internet points for the one who does. (Note that anyone can live with a flag, as they are not hazardous) Guix already pretty clearly stated we are against any form of oppression (one of my points has always been that the word `master` by itself does not oppress anyone). What else do we need to do? But hey! Calling people this and that during the process is all in order to encourage inclusion and make a healthy community. I can live with it, but I'm not convinced. --- [^1]: Don't we all agree on that? Isn't it superobvious? 100% of the world population does! DISCLAIMER: The point is not to debate about any current political conflict, but the fact that none of them are universal. The one mentioned in this email is the best case I could find to illustrate the problem, for obvious reasons.
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[194.254.61.41]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-395c8975b83sm19198185f8f.52.2025.03.18.09.45.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 18 Mar 2025 09:45:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> To: Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN>, Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN>, Christopher Howard <christopher@HIDDEN>, Divya Ranjan <divya@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch In-Reply-To: <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> References: <d835c85c709a393309e6cad4ab065d039f1e08af.camel@HIDDEN> <f072096c292546c760d1342aa7d4f6c950027da9.camel@HIDDEN> <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:44:59 +0100 Message-ID: <87wmcm2sqc.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Epa Ekaitz! Hi Christopher, all, On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 at 11:48, Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN> wrote: > This debate is draining me, so consider me done here. [...] > I am not convinced. Personally, the only question I ask to myself is: Can I live with =E2=80=9Cmain=E2=80=9D as the branch name? Or cannot I live with it? Let me share my reasoning, FWIW. When discussing such topics where I don=E2=80=99t really feel personally concerned, I do not try to rationalize= and I refrain to ask myself if it is founded or not =E2=80=93 slippery slope to= ward time vortex =E2=80=93, and instead, I try to focus on what the change costs= me and I ask to myself if I can or if I cannot live with this change. Somehow, whatever if I rationally consider the rename deeply ridiculous or highly important, or something in the middle, instead I answer: Ok, it costs me nothing and I can live with this rename. Then I scrutinize the details using the same frame. :-) Cheers, simon PS: > Guix is a Catalan surname, maybe some of them are uncomfortable by its=20 > name, we should change it too! Ah I didn=E2=80=99t know=E2=80=A6 That=E2=80=99s why: https://img.over-blog.com/300x282/1/50/22/38/chats/chats2/Lepic-guix-100.JPG Raymond Guix is a painter in Paris. :-) Good to know.
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[71.244.152.222]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id af79cd13be357-7c47d66273bsm298943285a.69.2025.03.08.10.15.41 for <76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 08 Mar 2025 10:15:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 13:15:23 -0500 From: Aaron Covrig <aaron.covrig.us@HIDDEN> To: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Alternate name Message-ID: <20250308131523.36c4a966@mobile-dev> Organization: IEEE X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.3.0 (GTK 3.24.41; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/iG7I3_w1uhBb2=k8_Ey_Yoo"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --Sig_/iG7I3_w1uhBb2=k8_Ey_Yoo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not overly opinionated on this; although I would slightly prefer to keep as is for consistency (and that I feel most arguments of this sort are a bit contrived). If the name must be changed I'd vote against 'main' and go for something like 'stable' as I feel it describes the use case a bit better than 'main' does. The usage of 'main' to me can be slightly ambiguous as it raises the question, 'main of what?' vs 'stable' which indicates usage better IMO. v/r, Aaron Covrig --Sig_/iG7I3_w1uhBb2=k8_Ey_Yoo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYKAB0WIQSPXVwROJGaYSBOwhhfTkc5aZTD/QUCZ8yJOwAKCRBfTkc5aZTD /RuZAQCo328rJ+Dx59zPiCCrvHHkp7UVdJfXZnTUed6P1FRkFQD/SasJNtrftGat rYKvSffjia3Y2N1PjjH2hyfTz3eBfQw= =hR0l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/iG7I3_w1uhBb2=k8_Ey_Yoo--
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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By the time the switchover is done, my machine still has > =E2=80=98master=E2=80=99 in its =E2=80=98%default-guix-channel=E2=80=99 i= n its Guix. Thus, when I run > =E2=80=98guix pull=E2=80=99, I=E2=80=99ll end up pulling =E2=80=98master= =E2=80=99, which (the GCD does not > clarify this) will either fail because the branch has been removed > altogether, or will give me an old snapshot. After the end of the grace period, I propose to introduce a commit, thus to have master as a fork of main, and such commit would teach =E2=80=99update-cached-checkout=E2=80=99 to automatically switch. The only question is about dealing with authentication; well it requires a special care. But it appears to me doable since both master and main would be authenticated. > Thus, I think the GCD should propose to keep updating the =E2=80=98master= =E2=80=99 > branch as a mirror of =E2=80=98main=E2=80=99 for, say, a year (a cron job= can take care > of that). Even one year isn=E2=80=99t enough. ;-) I=E2=80=99m not sure to run =E2=80= =9Cguix pull=E2=80=9D once a year as root. And many irregular users will have an old snapshot. Just to me mention that new issues are still reported about v1.2.0 released=E2=80=A6 Sorry I=E2=80=99m too old to remember such ancient time.= ;-) Cheers, simon
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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So I am curious > whether there are any hard data on this topic. [...] > Since this GCD is all about feelings, let me point out that some people > do have negative feelings about the "main" as well. It is a politically > charged name, so I am not sure it satisfies the goal of "Guix > contributors, as a whole, feel comfortable with". Since this appears to me the premise for the rest, let be sure we have this premise. :-) 1. Can you live with =E2=80=9Cmain=E2=80=9D as the branch name? Or cannot you live with it? 2. The same question for these people. Let me share my opinion, FWIW. When discussing such topics where I don=E2=80=99t really feel personally concerned, I refrain to ask myself if = it is founded or not =E2=80=93 slippery slope =E2=80=93, and instead, I try to fo= cus on what the change costs me and I ask to myself if I can or if cannot live with this change. Somehow, whatever if I consider the rename deeply ridiculous or highly important or something in the middle, instead I answer: Ok, it costs me nothing and I can live with this rename. Then I scrutinize the details using the same frame. :-) Cheers, simon
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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From: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>
To: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN>, 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] A better name for the default branch
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Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2025 16:27:43 +0100
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Cc: Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli <GNUtoo@HIDDEN>
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Hi Liliana,
On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 at 20:56, Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@gmail.=
com> wrote:
>> Therefore, maybe we could imagine that the last commit pushed master
>> introduce a double pull.
>>=20
>> Assume I still run this 056910e and we are after the grace period.=C2=A0=
I
>> run =E2=80=9Cguix pull=E2=80=9D so it fetch the last commit of master.=
=C2=A0 Now, when I
>> run again =E2=80=9Cguix pull=E2=80=9D, I will get the last commit of mai=
n.=C2=A0 This
>> second pull could be transparent for me.
>
> I don't think we should do this for two reasons:
>
> First, the "double pull" commit would be introduced to master only,
> which would break authentication of the main branch pulled this way.
At this end of the grace period, you have a direct path from the HEAD of
=E2=80=99main=E2=80=99 to the authenticated commit. And you also have a di=
rect path
from the HEAD of =E2=80=99master=E2=80=99 to the authenticated commit.
Assuming, this commit with =E2=80=9Cdouble pull=E2=80=9D lives only in =E2=
=80=99master=E2=80=99 and
=E2=80=99master=E2=80=99 forks from =E2=80=99main=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 fork b=
ecause it holds the very commit.
I do not know the detail about switching from an authenticable branch to
another authenticable branch. Because indeed, the HEAD of both branches
=E2=80=99main=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=99master=E2=80=99 would not be in the sam=
e closure.
Hum, something I need to check for my understanding. :-)
> Second, we would have to break Guix itself to introduce arbitrary code
> execution for this particular code =F0=9F=98=89
Why? We only need to introduce a special case in
=E2=80=99update-cached-checkout=E2=80=99, no?
Somehow, we would have:
* main
| * master
|/
* End grace period
so we could have something like introduced in the =E2=80=99master=E2=80=99 =
branch.
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)
guix/git.scm | 2 +-
modified guix/git.scm
@@ -653,7 +653,7 @@ (define* (update-cached-checkout url
#:cleanup-period
%checkout-cache-cleanup-per=
iod)))
=20
- (values cache-directory (oid->string oid) relation)))))
+ (update-cached-checkout ... #:ref `(branch . "main") ...)))))
=20
(define* (latest-repository-commit store url
#:key
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
Well, modulo the former question about authentication. :-)
> Perhaps instead, we can on the Git side "redirect" the master branch to
> main. This would avoid the double pull, and it would be truly
> transparent. Perhaps the following sequence of commands would achieve
> just that. (CC'ing Denis for their expertise)
Yeah, who can more can less. :-)
> Am Mittwoch, dem 19.02.2025 um 02:12 +0100 schrieb Denis 'GNUtoo'
> Carikli:
>> $ git checkout origin/master -b temporary
>> $ git push origin HEAD:main
>> $ ssh root@server
>> $ cd /path/to/repository.git
>> $ git symbolic-ref HEAD refs/heads/main # Change the main branch
>> $ git symbolic-ref refs/heads/master refs/heads/main # Make master
>> point to main
>
>> This might avoid: Oops why don=E2=80=99t I get the last?=C2=A0 Because y=
ou=E2=80=99re
>> after the grace period. :-)
>>=20
>> I don=E2=80=99t know if my suggestion is worth.
>
> Fair point. Double-pulling is a source of annoyance in other package
> managers, so we should do our best not to make it affect too many
> users.
Assuming we are allowed to do that on the server hosting the Git
repository.
Cheers,
simon
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[85.127.114.32]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-43bd42c5ccesm28905615e9.19.2025.03.05.13.10.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 05 Mar 2025 13:10:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <0287032e89de1ed5f7a77416d5a338bcb78ef176.camel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#76407: [GCD] A better name for the default branch From: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> To: Ludovic =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Court=E8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2025 22:12:00 +0100 In-Reply-To: <8734g3ro8p.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> References: <b900cd17b88123af3ae95f4e7d572e540f86e879.camel@HIDDEN> <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> <87o6ys3eom.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <8fea9aa02c0dec4574686d636d92fd74997d2c85.camel@HIDDEN> <8734g3ro8p.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.54.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN>, 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, Am Montag, dem 24.02.2025 um 23:07 +0100 schrieb Ludovic Court=C3=A8s: > Perfect!=C2=A0 Since the notion of major/minor release is fuzzy in Guix, > I=E2=80=99d suggest something like: >=20 > =C2=A0 2. two or more releases were made in the meantime. Adopted. I also extended the grace periods to allow daemon idling for longer, and added a section regarding other channels. Cheers
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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From: Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>
To: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] A better name for the default branch
In-Reply-To: <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN>
(Liliana Marie Prikler's message of "Tue, 18 Feb 2025 23:14:29 +0100")
References: <b900cd17b88123af3ae95f4e7d572e540f86e879.camel@HIDDEN>
<79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN>
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--=-=-=
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Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> writes:
> Hi Guix,
>
> this patch introduces GCD 003 =E2=80=9CA better name for the default bran=
ch=E2=80=9D.
> I've taken the comments on guix-devel into account (most of them anyway)
> and updated the document accordingly. Note that references to GCD 002
> are made. That GCD was drafted earlier, but may or may not already be
> submitted by the time you read this. Do be patient :)
>
> Cheers
>
> ---
> 003-better-default-branch-name.md | 187 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 1 file changed, 187 insertions(+)
> create mode 100644 003-better-default-branch-name.md
>
> diff --git a/003-better-default-branch-name.md b/003-better-default-branc=
h-name.md
> new file mode 100644
> index 0000000..95952a5
> --- /dev/null
> +++ b/003-better-default-branch-name.md
> @@ -0,0 +1,187 @@
> +title: A better name for the default branch
> +id: 003
> +status: submitted
> +discussion: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/76407
> +authors: Liliana Marie Prikler
> +sponsors: Simon Tournier, Ian Eure, Vagrant Cascadian, Ludovic Court=C3=
=A8s
> +date: 2025-02-18
> +SPDX-License-Identifier: CC-BY-SA-4.0 OR GFDL-1.3-no-invariants-only
> +---
> +
> +# Summary
> +
> +Currently, much of Guix's development takes place on the =E2=80=9Cmaster=
=E2=80=9D
> +branch. This name is neither particularly meaningful nor inclusive;
> +choosing to use it may inadvertently alienate potential contributors.
> +To mitigate these effects, we should more clearly communicate, what the
> +default branch is all about.
> +
> +# Motivation
> +
> +It is well known, that Git works with whatever branch name one chooses.
> +However, for historical reasons, the default/initial/main branch for
> +development used to be =E2=80=9Cmaster=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 particularly i=
n 2012, when the first
> +commit to Guix was made.
> +
> +Recent versions of Git support arbitrary initial branches and the
> +default branch name is subject to change upstream, at least in part
> +because the current default =E2=80=94 =E2=80=9Cmaster=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94=
may be perceived as harmful.
> +While the intended meaning is something close to =E2=80=9Can original, f=
rom
> +which copies are made=E2=80=9D, there are several other meanings of the =
word
> +that spring to mind more easily, some of have a racist or sexist
> +connotation.
> +
> +One goal of the Guix community is to foster a healthy community around
> +the software we use. Using clear language that does not pertain to
> +harmful stereotypes is a key towards achieving this goal. Thus, as a
> +proactive step, we should rename the default branch.
Was there any study or statistics about this topic?
The two black people I have asked consider the whole "master -> main"
branch rename ridiculous, and me, descendant of people after who the
Slavery institute is named (Slavs), also do not care. So I am curious
whether there are any hard data on this topic.
> +
> +# Detailed Design
> +
> +This section explains the chosen solution among the available options,
> +the scope of the proposed migration, and a migration path.
> +
> +## Scope of this document
> +
> +This document discusses only to change the name of the default branch,
> +not to change the branching strategy. Such ideas, e.g. to have a
> +=E2=80=9Cstable=E2=80=9D branch containing only bug-fixes and well-teste=
d features
> +and an =E2=80=9Cunstable=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cexperimental=E2=80=9D bran=
ch would need to be discussed
> +in a separate document.
> +
> +## Choice of branch name
> +
> +In this section, we discuss potential branch names that have been
> +considered. The goal is to find a name that Guix contributors, as a
> +whole, feel comfortable with.
> +
> +While this GCD is still being reviewed, new suggestions may be added,
> +and benefits and drawbacks for each name discussed. Once this GCD is
> +accepted, these benefits and drawbacks shall be shortly summarized,
> +and a final decision with a short justification as the one at the end
> +of this section shall be the last paragraph of this section.
> +
> +- The currently used =E2=80=9Cmaster=E2=80=9D has more than ten differen=
t meanings,
> + some of them pertaining to slavery, others to dominance, and yet
> + others merely to skill and expertise. It is understandable that some
> + contributors would feel uncomfortable with this name, given that not
> + all uses are equally frequent.
> +
> +- The currently proposed alternative =E2=80=9Cmain=E2=80=9D has several =
meanings
> + relating to =E2=80=9Cimportance=E2=80=9D, the most obvious being =E2=
=80=9Cmost important=E2=80=9D.
Since this GCD is all about feelings, let me point out that some people
do have negative feelings about the "main" as well. It is a politically
charged name, so I am not sure it satisfies the goal of "Guix
contributors, as a whole, feel comfortable with".
> +
> +- Other alternatives would be =E2=80=9Ctrunk=E2=80=9D as a visual metaph=
or from
> + which =E2=80=9Cbranches=E2=80=9D spawn, and =E2=80=9Cbase=E2=80=9D wit=
h the same meaning.
> +
> +- =E2=80=9Cguix=E2=80=9D being the name of the project also serves as an=
option,
I like this one.
> + albeit one that is not clearly defined (are the other branches
> + not guix as well?)
But other branches are not Guix. If someone tells me "pull the latest
Guix", I would assume that means master branch (or whatever the new name
would be). I do not think anyone would go to the conclusion "oh, latest
Guix must mean rust-team branch, because it is also a Guix".
In my eyes other branches are not Guix, they are what Guix can become
one day.
> +
> +- Similar to =E2=80=9Cguix=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cdevelopment=E2=80=9D merel=
y signifies that some sort
> + of development happens on the branch; a fact that should hold for
> + most, if not all branches.
> +
> +We choose =E2=80=9Cmain=E2=80=9D simply because it is currently the expl=
icit initial
> +branch for a git checkout as per `git-fetch` in `(guix build git)`.
> +Another name could be chosen by any means that support achieving a
> +consensus, e.g. comments on this GCD or a popular vote.
> +
> +## Manual Updates
> +
> +Sections 19 (Security Updates) and 22 (Contributing) of the Guix manual
> +would need to be reworded to reflect the new default branch. Other
> +sections mentioning =E2=80=9Cmaster=E2=80=9D branches may be reworded at=
any time
> +regardless of this GCD. Some mentions of the word =E2=80=9Cmaster=E2=80=
=9D are tied to
> +particular services and thus subject to rewording only once upstream
> +adopts a different terminology.
> +
> +## Repository Update Path
> +
> +For a complete list of repositories associated with the Guix project,
> +see GCD 002 =E2=80=98Migrating repositories, issues, and patches to Code=
berg=E2=80=99.
> +Most repositories can rename their default branch with no issue
> +(see also Cost of Reverting below).
> +
> +For Guix itself, we would decide on a **flag day** 14 days after
> +acceptance of this GCD at the earliest, and 30 days at the latest.
> +On that day, the main development branch would become "main".
> +A commit would reflect that by updating:
> +
> + 1. the `branch` field in `.guix-channel`;
> + 2. the `branch` field of `%default-guix-channel` in `(guix channels)`;
> + 3. any other reference to the "master" branch of the Guix repository
> + that may appear in the repository (in particular the Manual Updates
> + above).
> +
> +Following this commit, an entry in `etc/news.scm` would explain the
> +migration. The `master` branch would then point at the commit of said
> +news entry, and would need to be updated only after said news are
> +translated into another language.
Just to make sure, the "update" here refers to syncing the master branch
to what main is? So the histories would not diverge, it is just the
master would be behind. Is that correct?
> The `master` branch may keep following
> +the `main` branch for a grace period of 30 days anyways.
> +
> +Even after the `master` branch no longer syncs up to main, it may be
> +important to still have it pointing at some commit. Old installation
> +media, handcrafted `channels.scm`, external documentation and scripts
> +may all still be referring to the `master` branch even long after the
> +rename (see also Cost of Reverting below). To ensure that these do
> +not fail immediately, the old branch shall not be deleted until
Is there a reason to delete it at all? It will not be prominently
displayed anywhere, it would not be updated anymore, so is there any
harm (even to those people who would supposedly get offended by the
current branch name) if it just stays there? Only place where it would
be visible is listing all remote branches, which seems... acceptable?
Having it will allow even old setups to update, at the cost of double
pull.
Or, pushing bit further, is there a reason to not keep it updated? So
that people just can pick branch they feel the most comfortable with?
> +
> +1. at least one year has passed since this GCD has been accepted, AND
> +2. enough Guix releases have been made in the meantime, meaning
> + a. at least one major release, OR
> + b. at least three minor releases.
Given our current release cadence, this basically means the branch stays
forever, so you just as well may say so.
One thing I am not sure about are Guix packages in distributions. For
example, I do not know whether Debian would update Guix to new version
in already released version. So if Trixie is released with current
1.4.0, and we than make a 3 minor releases and delete the master branch,
will Debian users still be able to pull? (I think we have Debian
developer taking care of Guix here on the list, so maybe he can chime
in.)
Not sure what other distributions package Guix, and whether you care
about them in general.
> +
> +## Continuous Integration
> +
> +The jobset for the `master` branch would be removed and a jobset for the
> +`main` branch with the highest priority and the same set of architectures
> +would be created.
> +
> +## Relation to other Guix Consensus Documents
> +
> +Since this change has the potential to affect users and contributors in
> +ways that will disrupt their workflow for some amount of time as they
> +reconfigure their local checkouts to point at the new branch, it should
> +best be adopted as the same time as other, similar changes. In particul=
ar,
> +an adoption at the same time as GCD 002 =E2=80=98Migrating repositories,=
issues,
> +and patches to Codeberg=E2=80=99 is desirable.
I am not sure how this plays together with the timeline set above ("14
days after acceptance of this GCD at the earliest, and 30 days at the
latest."). What if this GCD is voted on before the GCD 002? Would it
not make sense to rephrase it to something like "14 days after
acceptance of this GCD or 14 days after result of vote on GCD 002,
whichever happens later"?
> +
> +The repository update path in this GCD is only valid as long as it is
> +simultaneously upheld by other, similar GCDs. Again GCD 002 =E2=80=98Mi=
grating
> +repositories, issues, and patches to Codeberg=E2=80=99 needs to be consi=
dered as
> +a possibly simultaneous change. For the sake of clarity, the promises
> +made in the repository update path w.r.t. the availability of the old
> +branch shall not exceed those of any other accepted GCD and instead
> +be updated to match.
> +
> +## Cost of Reverting
> +
> +This change mostly affects contributors, who would have to run the follo=
wing
> +command once to pull from (and in the case of committers push to) the new
> +main branch:
> +
> + $ git branch --set-upstream-to <origin>/main
> +
> +Users of the `guix` CLI would be advised to run `guix pull` again to fet=
ch
> +the latest commit from the main branch. Users of old installation media
> +(e.g. disk images for version 1.4.0) would continue to use the "master" =
branch
> +and the default channel URL of said installation media until they run
> +`guix pull`. A new release may mitigate this annoyance somewhat.
These two paragraphs above seem to have no connection to "Cost of
Reverting".
> +
> +The main branch may be renamed to any other name (including "master") by
> +repeating the steps laid out in the Repository Update Path and
> +Continuous Integration above, using <name> instead of "main".
> +
> +# Drawbacks and Open Issues
One drawback that is missing here is the impact on scripting and tools
that people have on their machines. I have at least few scripts that
operate with origin/master that will need to be updated. I would not be
surprised if various crons that break will keep being discovered for
weeks or months after the rename.
It is valid to consider that an acceptable cost, but I think the general
fallout across the ecosystem should be recognized in this document, and
clearly declared as acceptable.
> +
> +There is an ongoing political debate as to whether the name =E2=80=9Cmas=
ter=E2=80=9D,
> +standing alone, should be considered harmful. Similar debates may
> +well surround other names given enough time and particular
> +circumstances. More generally, as language continues to evolve,
> +meanings that appear obvious today may no longer remain so in the
> +future.
> +
> +It is unclear, what effect, if any, the name of the default branch has
> +to contributor satisfaction.
In that case time spent debating this GCD and doing all the work it
would cause, would maybe be better spent on some outreach programs
and/or workshops for less fortunate people?
> The choice of a name may well appear
> +similar to choosing the colour of a bikeshed. What constitutes a
> +meaningful branch name will inevitably be a matter of opinion.
Have a nice day,
Tomas
=2D-=20
There are only two hard things in Computer Science:
cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors.
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guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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Note that references to GCD 002 > are made. That GCD was drafted earlier, but may or may not already be > submitted by the time you read this. Do be patient :) Thank you for this submission. I have yet to meet someone taking passive offense at the "master" branch but I do purposely mispronounce Guix from the project's pejorative. Perhaps I can offer that as a future GCD. And if we are to be offended, why whitewash history? We live privileged lives in the most privileged nations during the most privileged time in history. This is not the default state of the world, to die of old-age peacefully in one's sleep. All of our peoples were slaves, and all were slavers. More Europeans were trafficked to Africa in the Barbary slave trade than Africans to America in the North Atlantic slave trade. Only one of those two peoples survives. Can we find greater but narrower consensus around the practical motivation that 1) most users leave unchanged the git default "main", therefore "master" will become increasingly uncommon and unexpected, 2) the choice of "main" is masterfully similar when tab-completing or looking through a sorted list of refs, and 3) the move to Codeberg presents a hopefully rare opportunity combine disruptive changes? We do not need a comprehensive motivation if we can find consensus on the outcome. Greg
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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Tue, 25 Feb 2025 13:34:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 13:34:43 -0500 From: Leo Famulari <leo@HIDDEN> To: Roman Riabenko via Guix-patches via <guix-patches@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch Message-ID: <Z74NQ1wSjVq5YB1I@HIDDEN> References: <d835c85c709a393309e6cad4ab065d039f1e08af.camel@HIDDEN> <f072096c292546c760d1342aa7d4f6c950027da9.camel@HIDDEN> <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> <f78d40758e1838026fb3e796f037e917c26f761f.camel@HIDDEN> <20250221153520.20b99610afcdf7bea76e9c6e@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20250221153520.20b99610afcdf7bea76e9c6e@HIDDEN> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=202.12.124.144; envelope-from=leo@HIDDEN; helo=fout-b1-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 03:35:20PM +0200, Roman Riabenko via Guix-patches via wrote: > I would propose the word "release" instead. The word is already widely > used in guix to refer to published source code of stable versions of > software, so it should be easily recognisable and describe the purpose > of the branch accurately. This is the branch where the guix code is > realeased and where the guix releases are published. As I think your message highlights, it's not easy to come up with good names for things like this. And the harder you think about it, the harder it becomes. I think that most of the proposed names for this branch (master, main, trunk, base) are good enough. 'stable' and 'unstable' are too semantically specific to be accurate, and 'development' is too long :) But in my opinion, 'release' is not as good, because we already use the word "release" to mean something that's different from the 'master' branch. Although, our "releases" and our 'master' branch are both released upon the world with the suggestion that they should be used, unlike our other Git branches, so there is some similarity too.
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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Tue, 25 Feb 2025 13:34:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 13:34:43 -0500 From: Leo Famulari <leo@HIDDEN> To: Roman Riabenko via Guix-patches via <guix-patches@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch Message-ID: <Z74NQ1wSjVq5YB1I@HIDDEN> References: <d835c85c709a393309e6cad4ab065d039f1e08af.camel@HIDDEN> <f072096c292546c760d1342aa7d4f6c950027da9.camel@HIDDEN> <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> <f78d40758e1838026fb3e796f037e917c26f761f.camel@HIDDEN> <20250221153520.20b99610afcdf7bea76e9c6e@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20250221153520.20b99610afcdf7bea76e9c6e@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 03:35:20PM +0200, Roman Riabenko via Guix-patches via wrote: > I would propose the word "release" instead. The word is already widely > used in guix to refer to published source code of stable versions of > software, so it should be easily recognisable and describe the purpose > of the branch accurately. This is the branch where the guix code is > realeased and where the guix releases are published. As I think your message highlights, it's not easy to come up with good names for things like this. And the harder you think about it, the harder it becomes. I think that most of the proposed names for this branch (master, main, trunk, base) are good enough. 'stable' and 'unstable' are too semantically specific to be accurate, and 'development' is too long :) But in my opinion, 'release' is not as good, because we already use the word "release" to mean something that's different from the 'master' branch. Although, our "releases" and our 'master' branch are both released upon the world with the suggestion that they should be used, unlike our other Git branches, so there is some similarity too.
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
Full text available.Received: (at 76407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Feb 2025 22:07:16 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 24 17:07:16 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43205 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tmgbc-0006OZ-2Y for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Feb 2025 17:07:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51434) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1tmgbY-0006OC-Ec for 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Feb 2025 17:07:13 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1tmgbT-00066P-1t; Mon, 24 Feb 2025 17:07:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=9Xbbbp/isBdZxUSbJgp+kaxILulnU2QBAxcrwIg692M=; b=onvweor/eba5xSuO2gJI DuHLK/kX7zNoKGpyRK2mT52gPGh1wPx03i20CpvhNMiCJwjnfH6ixJfTurrxeqktvixqys7Tm9fCg E7m70Sm4G7TOv66eV+T57w+8KsTZ10EGsNdU+4lSWmg8s2VlPKM3BacjJgLCikGviiet1NUy5pS+e zXt0M36WCxXfai174PLOuKj1ccVQSgXINQdB0fuXaHFbRJKNrclwak38lvpt8YxdSQQzg3sbasIwl WYU777HWasNuJQx5xBCfy9Mw0zvrjfDnMZujf9IMElQWTkprxK7G9LGXTyxe8vWP+cQDA43z19qh6 xvvSr61UcnuJ1A==; From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> To: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#76407: [GCD] A better name for the default branch In-Reply-To: <8fea9aa02c0dec4574686d636d92fd74997d2c85.camel@HIDDEN> (Liliana Marie Prikler's message of "Sun, 23 Feb 2025 16:48:17 +0100") References: <b900cd17b88123af3ae95f4e7d572e540f86e879.camel@HIDDEN> <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> <87o6ys3eom.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <8fea9aa02c0dec4574686d636d92fd74997d2c85.camel@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 23:07:02 +0100 Message-ID: <8734g3ro8p.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hello, Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> skribis: > Actually, the GCD does specify this: Oh right, sorry. >> Even after the `master` branch no longer syncs up to main, it may be >> important to still have it pointing at some commit. Old installation >> media, handcrafted `channels.scm`, external documentation and scripts >> may all still be referring to the `master` branch even long after the >> rename (see also Cost of Reverting below). To ensure that these do >> not fail immediately, the old branch shall not be deleted until >>=20 >> 1. at least one year has passed since this GCD has been accepted, AND >> 2. enough Guix releases have been made in the meantime, meaning >> a. at least one major release, OR >> b. at least three minor releases. Perfect! Since the notion of major/minor release is fuzzy in Guix, I=E2=80= =99d suggest something like: 2. two or more releases were made in the meantime. >> > +## Choice of branch name >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m not convinced this section is necessary.=C2=A0 :-) > How do we achieve consensus on the proposed name itself, then? =E2=80=98main=E2=80=99 is an established and non-controversial name in this= context, which is why I thought we could omit the section. It=E2=80=99s no big deal though, we can keep it too. >> I don=E2=80=99t think this has to be simultaneous: both changes bring the >> potential for breakage if we=E2=80=99re not careful enough, but it=E2=80= =99s probably >> best to deal with a single class of breakage at a time. > Perhaps I am missing something crucial here, but IIUC most breakages > would result from the same record; with just one field between them.=20 > Since most configuration ends up being "fire and forget", reducing the > number of times they need to be edited sounds like a benefit to me. Hmm yes, maybe you=E2=80=99re right. The wording says =E2=80=9Cpossibly si= multaneous change=E2=80=9D so that leaves room. Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99.
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[85.127.114.32]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-38f258b439dsm28940633f8f.8.2025.02.23.07.47.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 23 Feb 2025 07:47:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8fea9aa02c0dec4574686d636d92fd74997d2c85.camel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#76407: [GCD] A better name for the default branch From: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> To: Ludovic =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Court=E8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2025 16:48:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87o6ys3eom.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> References: <b900cd17b88123af3ae95f4e7d572e540f86e879.camel@HIDDEN> <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> <87o6ys3eom.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.48.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Ludo=E2=80=99, Am Sonntag, dem 23.02.2025 um 15:42 +0100 schrieb Ludovic Court=C3=A8s: > Hi Liliana, >=20 > Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> skribis: >=20 > > +For Guix itself, we would decide on a **flag day** 14 days after > > +acceptance of this GCD at the earliest, and 30 days at the latest. > > +On that day, the main development branch would become "main". > > +A commit would reflect that by updating: > > + > > +=C2=A0 1. the `branch` field in `.guix-channel`; > > +=C2=A0 2. the `branch` field of `%default-guix-channel` in `(guix > > channels)`; > > +=C2=A0 3. any other reference to the "master" branch of the Guix > > repository > > +=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that may appear in the repository (in particu= lar the Manual > > Updates > > +=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 above). >=20 > Consider this scenario: I have a machine that I upgrade once every > two months.=C2=A0 By the time the switchover is done, my machine still ha= s > =E2=80=98master=E2=80=99 in its =E2=80=98%default-guix-channel=E2=80=99 i= n its Guix.=C2=A0 Thus, when I > run =E2=80=98guix pull=E2=80=99, I=E2=80=99ll end up pulling =E2=80=98mas= ter=E2=80=99, which (the GCD does > not clarify this) will either fail because the branch has been > removed altogether, or will give me an old snapshot. Actually, the GCD does specify this: > Even after the `master` branch no longer syncs up to main, it may be > important to still have it pointing at some commit. Old installation > media, handcrafted `channels.scm`, external documentation and scripts > may all still be referring to the `master` branch even long after the > rename (see also Cost of Reverting below). To ensure that these do > not fail immediately, the old branch shall not be deleted until >=20 > 1. at least one year has passed since this GCD has been accepted, AND > 2. enough Guix releases have been made in the meantime, meaning > a. at least one major release, OR > b. at least three minor releases. > Thus, I think the GCD should propose to keep updating the =E2=80=98master= =E2=80=99 > branch as a mirror of =E2=80=98main=E2=80=99 for, say, a year (a cron job= can take > care of that). Fair enough. Keeping it updated for one year and then phasing it out should give folks more time to adopt. > Also, instead of changing the =E2=80=98branch=E2=80=99 field, I would sug= gest > adopting and finalizing <https://issues.guix.gnu.org/49252> and > leaving =E2=80=98branch=E2=80=99 unset so that the server-side default br= anch is > taken. SGTM. > > +## Choice of branch name >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not convinced this section is necessary.=C2=A0 :-) How do we achieve consensus on the proposed name itself, then? > > +The repository update path in this GCD is only valid as long as it > > is > > +simultaneously upheld by other, similar GCDs.=C2=A0 Again GCD 002 > > =E2=80=98Migrating > > +repositories, issues, and patches to Codeberg=E2=80=99 needs to be > > considered as > > +a possibly simultaneous change. >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t think this has to be simultaneous: both changes bring the > potential for breakage if we=E2=80=99re not careful enough, but it=E2=80= =99s probably > best to deal with a single class of breakage at a time. Perhaps I am missing something crucial here, but IIUC most breakages would result from the same record; with just one field between them.=20 Since most configuration ends up being "fire and forget", reducing the number of times they need to be edited sounds like a benefit to me. > Also, perhaps clarify that this GCD is valid whether or not GCD 002 > is adopted. Sure. Cheers
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
Full text available.Received: (at 76407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Feb 2025 14:44:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 23 09:44:24 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60078 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tmDDU-0004kw-IH for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Feb 2025 09:44:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57266) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1tmDDS-0004kZ-A6 for 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Feb 2025 09:44:22 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1tmDDN-0006m9-0m; Sun, 23 Feb 2025 09:44:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=Fwf27XeRtxeHpcQ6OOwcDcd28b3FQkwt0FtYWoe78rc=; b=Bt+Vzsa6uJ8zHaGswHjM icS/MdRFYe9y1odGBuWApx2g5cfnsC0W7T8qUR31S3lIEyTexIYreucOG2ve4MocM34lzFS25+YtU sVhdPLxdpEQDiDaQIklJekI0J8c1QjDRZuI+cK4rO/+ZOW+vt58z7NmEBDGyvHiNicYqmzJ6rEh44 j5ZL5yprcKW27CactZlDzyHUjn5T+ALj/mT68yoabdNxCW9JxJp2+XGgwk6iynQ2q+eceYwKMOOlM jyClGY0g4jzlfgryQt/cx+w9Iqf4cwt2JlRc5rwPmBKSzjgGV50R3GG462pnEG5SBkzuS5ry6VfMQ DqxjkstKFLOlfg==; From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> To: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#76407: [GCD] A better name for the default branch In-Reply-To: <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> (Liliana Marie Prikler's message of "Tue, 18 Feb 2025 23:14:29 +0100") References: <b900cd17b88123af3ae95f4e7d572e540f86e879.camel@HIDDEN> <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2025 15:44:14 +0100 Message-ID: <87jz9g3em9.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> skribis: > + 1. the `branch` field in `.guix-channel`; I just realized: there=E2=80=99s no =E2=80=98branch=E2=80=99 field in =E2= =80=98.guix-channel=E2=80=99. Ludo=E2=80=99.
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
Full text available.Received: (at 76407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Feb 2025 14:43:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 23 09:43:30 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60073 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tmDCb-0004ir-La for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Feb 2025 09:43:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47122) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1tmDCV-0004iY-B8 for 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Feb 2025 09:43:26 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1tmDCO-0006hG-EU; Sun, 23 Feb 2025 09:43:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=uV/SyR0ty4ED3nT1DyIG5fI55I/5vtq/Hr9XFgT7EFg=; b=OvGbD5uK/py2iDMEPgMP KQlgGkbNXyQfzLa4p/HrcjlbXDDww5Q/kbYPHKmuz1QhSqcPGzMBk09LIm+/BvkOl8NKhuYdByoKY AjZBXPUPJFgwM1ZfhAiVgnrnHsvUdi2NDswNxcUXW5NlfGEoQ4x84TDu+zGhexNOcGNZ0sXHZ3Hcx QtuanTT3O9Cu00mFmkLfsFyCAKXpfvsxGalqPKkKaPuJTkEy+1zJciQkEepa6GlLkffAkBzqZ9pux SZR9/aBG6XnCx+HutqrJOcdS8XjUYy59x5eNZUjNpRd42pbuXg4rIIMoQDq48SR0pdDa6K09jHhY2 lPsr00mQisWNRA==; From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> To: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#76407: [GCD] A better name for the default branch In-Reply-To: <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> (Liliana Marie Prikler's message of "Tue, 18 Feb 2025 23:14:29 +0100") References: <b900cd17b88123af3ae95f4e7d572e540f86e879.camel@HIDDEN> <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2025 15:42:49 +0100 Message-ID: <87o6ys3eom.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hi Liliana, Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> skribis: > +For Guix itself, we would decide on a **flag day** 14 days after > +acceptance of this GCD at the earliest, and 30 days at the latest. > +On that day, the main development branch would become "main". > +A commit would reflect that by updating: > + > + 1. the `branch` field in `.guix-channel`; > + 2. the `branch` field of `%default-guix-channel` in `(guix channels)`; > + 3. any other reference to the "master" branch of the Guix repository > + that may appear in the repository (in particular the Manual Updates > + above). Consider this scenario: I have a machine that I upgrade once every two months. By the time the switchover is done, my machine still has =E2=80=98master=E2=80=99 in its =E2=80=98%default-guix-channel=E2=80=99 in = its Guix. Thus, when I run =E2=80=98guix pull=E2=80=99, I=E2=80=99ll end up pulling =E2=80=98master=E2= =80=99, which (the GCD does not clarify this) will either fail because the branch has been removed altogether, or will give me an old snapshot. Thus, I think the GCD should propose to keep updating the =E2=80=98master= =E2=80=99 branch as a mirror of =E2=80=98main=E2=80=99 for, say, a year (a cron job c= an take care of that). Also, instead of changing the =E2=80=98branch=E2=80=99 field, I would sugge= st adopting and finalizing <https://issues.guix.gnu.org/49252> and leaving =E2=80=98bra= nch=E2=80=99 unset so that the server-side default branch is taken. >+## Choice of branch name I=E2=80=99m not convinced this section is necessary. :-) > +The repository update path in this GCD is only valid as long as it is > +simultaneously upheld by other, similar GCDs. Again GCD 002 =E2=80=98Mi= grating > +repositories, issues, and patches to Codeberg=E2=80=99 needs to be consi= dered as > +a possibly simultaneous change. I don=E2=80=99t think this has to be simultaneous: both changes bring the potential for breakage if we=E2=80=99re not careful enough, but it=E2=80=99= s probably best to deal with a single class of breakage at a time. Also, perhaps clarify that this GCD is valid whether or not GCD 002 is adopted. Apart from that, it LGTM! Ludo=E2=80=99.
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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I believe I understand what it's trying to achieve (and believe it is worthwhile), but I struggled to understand how this would be technically achieved. Could you please share the technical details of this specific part? -- Suhail
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[85.127.114.32]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-38f259f8602sm24877252f8f.94.2025.02.21.11.55.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 21 Feb 2025 11:55:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <b52d4742266f6ace2d9eadf6490ed9a833434244.camel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] A better name for the default branch From: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> To: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>, 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 20:56:29 +0100 In-Reply-To: <875xl3rwn2.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <b900cd17b88123af3ae95f4e7d572e540f86e879.camel@HIDDEN> <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> <875xl3rwn2.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.48.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli <GNUtoo@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Am Freitag, dem 21.02.2025 um 19:16 +0100 schrieb Simon Tournier: > My current profile is: >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 $ guix describe > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Generation 8=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0Sep 09 2024 15:14:29=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(current) > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 guix 056910e > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reposi= tory URL: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 commit= : 056910ec864cb7cf3225a0c27679d94405db7dcd >=20 > And many people upgrade guix-daemon less than once a year. :-) >=20 > My point is: I=E2=80=99m not sure that a grace period of 30 days will be > enough considering the time to spread the word.=C2=A0 But, hey we need to > bound somewhere. :-) I put one month there as an optimistic estimate :) We do have to talk about all the numbers used there as to whether they are realistic, whether we should be keeping somethings for longer and whether we can keep them for longer. > Therefore, maybe we could imagine that the last commit pushed master > introduce a double pull. >=20 > Assume I still run this 056910e and we are after the grace period.=C2=A0 = I > run =E2=80=9Cguix pull=E2=80=9D so it fetch the last commit of master.=C2= =A0 Now, when I > run again =E2=80=9Cguix pull=E2=80=9D, I will get the last commit of main= .=C2=A0 This > second pull could be transparent for me. I don't think we should do this for two reasons: First, the "double pull" commit would be introduced to master only, which would break authentication of the main branch pulled this way. Second, we would have to break Guix itself to introduce arbitrary code execution for this particular code =F0=9F=98=89 Perhaps instead, we can on the Git side "redirect" the master branch to main. This would avoid the double pull, and it would be truly transparent. Perhaps the following sequence of commands would achieve just that. (CC'ing Denis for their expertise) Am Mittwoch, dem 19.02.2025 um 02:12 +0100 schrieb Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli: > $ git checkout origin/master -b temporary > $ git push origin HEAD:main > $ ssh root@server > $ cd /path/to/repository.git > $ git symbolic-ref HEAD refs/heads/main # Change the main branch > $ git symbolic-ref refs/heads/master refs/heads/main # Make master > point to main > This might avoid: Oops why don=E2=80=99t I get the last?=C2=A0 Because yo= u=E2=80=99re > after the grace period. :-) >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t know if my suggestion is worth. Fair point. Double-pulling is a source of annoyance in other package managers, so we should do our best not to make it affect too many users. Cheers
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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From: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>
To: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN>, 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] A better name for the default branch
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Hi,
On Tue, 18 Feb 2025 at 23:14, Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@gmail.=
com> wrote:
> +## Repository Update Path
> +
> +For a complete list of repositories associated with the Guix project,
> +see GCD 002 =E2=80=98Migrating repositories, issues, and patches to Code=
berg=E2=80=99.
> +Most repositories can rename their default branch with no issue
> +(see also Cost of Reverting below).
> +
> +For Guix itself, we would decide on a **flag day** 14 days after
> +acceptance of this GCD at the earliest, and 30 days at the latest.
> +On that day, the main development branch would become "main".
> +A commit would reflect that by updating:
> +
> + 1. the `branch` field in `.guix-channel`;
> + 2. the `branch` field of `%default-guix-channel` in `(guix channels)`;
> + 3. any other reference to the "master" branch of the Guix repository
> + that may appear in the repository (in particular the Manual Updates
> + above).
> +
> +Following this commit, an entry in `etc/news.scm` would explain the
> +migration. The `master` branch would then point at the commit of said
> +news entry, and would need to be updated only after said news are
> +translated into another language. The `master` branch may keep following
> +the `main` branch for a grace period of 30 days anyways.
> +
> +Even after the `master` branch no longer syncs up to main, it may be
> +important to still have it pointing at some commit. Old installation
> +media, handcrafted `channels.scm`, external documentation and scripts
> +may all still be referring to the `master` branch even long after the
> +rename (see also Cost of Reverting below). To ensure that these do
> +not fail immediately, the old branch shall not be deleted until
> +
> +1. at least one year has passed since this GCD has been accepted, AND
> +2. enough Guix releases have been made in the meantime, meaning
> + a. at least one major release, OR
> + b. at least three minor releases.
My current profile is:
$ guix describe
Generation 8 Sep 09 2024 15:14:29 (current)
guix 056910e
repository URL: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git
commit: 056910ec864cb7cf3225a0c27679d94405db7dcd
And many people upgrade guix-daemon less than once a year. :-)
My point is: I=E2=80=99m not sure that a grace period of 30 days will be en=
ough
considering the time to spread the word. But, hey we need to bound
somewhere. :-)
Therefore, maybe we could imagine that the last commit pushed master
introduce a double pull.
Assume I still run this 056910e and we are after the grace period. I
run =E2=80=9Cguix pull=E2=80=9D so it fetch the last commit of master. Now=
, when I run
again =E2=80=9Cguix pull=E2=80=9D, I will get the last commit of main. Thi=
s second pull
could be transparent for me.
In other words, I still run this 056910e and we are after the grace
period, then when running =E2=80=9Cguix pull=E2=80=9D, I automatically get =
the latest
up-to-date commit of main. Obviously, I pay the unavoidable price of a
first pull but under the hood pull.
This might avoid: Oops why don=E2=80=99t I get the last? Because you=E2=80=
=99re after
the grace period. :-)
I don=E2=80=99t know if my suggestion is worth.
Cheers,
simon
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
Full text available.Received: (at 76407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Feb 2025 13:35:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 21 08:35:37 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57129 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tlTBp-0004dU-0w for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Feb 2025 08:35:37 -0500 Received: from lab.riabenko.com ([185.143.146.30]:46258) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <roman@HIDDEN>) id 1tlTBk-0004cd-K4 for 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Feb 2025 08:35:34 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=riabenko.com; s=selector; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:References: In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Subject:To:From:Date:From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date :Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=VqaeVbMq+ZsOeyKw6+yK9Q1FdxJ2R9l7QZQviHE5/VU=; b=UOJ+EYewcYL0dyiTV1CMZMxQSI IxuxlgwteTxgFvNoq5y7EOhMGMdSr7KDIqFG1tBpP//4OEerAu54qLRikdVgZP5TSpmhDdTo/pxH7 QtJvHDUvNAh0CS4UjCB/Nnv8h7BmKnTq/thxia/wlEF5p/6a13jWVS/IObT/bB/f6VyHBtTHK4HDe OKVvVfvrsyhnFUutLCSd9VnugYoLx9BpaPysHW4JpGbLHnPJ/l78d3nqh6VxTBXozXi8OpPdONoN6 vvXLaSbkrEdg6RtZ87dFmMDbQ5l5216Ui9mmTX/ccovUziqC/VcfyqukGzA5LloANrcOnjvw5IsF+ QSqkck5w==; Received: from librecmc.lan ([192.168.10.1] helo=localhost) by lab.riabenko.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.98) (envelope-from <roman@HIDDEN>) id 1tlTBi-000000005hy-3mQP for 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Feb 2025 15:35:30 +0200 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 15:35:20 +0200 From: Roman Riabenko <roman@HIDDEN> To: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch Message-Id: <20250221153520.20b99610afcdf7bea76e9c6e@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <f78d40758e1838026fb3e796f037e917c26f761f.camel@HIDDEN> References: <d835c85c709a393309e6cad4ab065d039f1e08af.camel@HIDDEN> <f072096c292546c760d1342aa7d4f6c950027da9.camel@HIDDEN> <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> <f78d40758e1838026fb3e796f037e917c26f761f.camel@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA256"; boundary="Signature=_Fri__21_Feb_2025_15_35_20_+0200_Qy8YQFQicP4dLnnD" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --Signature=_Fri__21_Feb_2025_15_35_20_+0200_Qy8YQFQicP4dLnnD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello. Since guix-help was copied on this proposal, I would try to help too. The word "master" is a metaphor for a subordinate relation. It serves its technical purpose. It became a boilerplate. So, it is easily recognisable by sophisticated audience, which makes it difficult to argue that it is ambiguous for practical purposes. However, being boilerplate, it does not accurately describe the purpose of that git branch in guix. For instance, I am not convinced that other branches being "subordinate" to that branch in some way is its defining characteristic. I would argue that the word "main" is also irrelevant because it describes a relation of importance, which does not seem to be relevant to the development cycle, neither to building a community. So, the proposed change to "main" is suboptimal from my perspective. I would propose the word "release" instead. The word is already widely used in guix to refer to published source code of stable versions of software, so it should be easily recognisable and describe the purpose of the branch accurately. This is the branch where the guix code is realeased and where the guix releases are published. I would note that, as long as a better metaphor can be afforded and considering that the matter has already been considered important enough to bring it up, discussing the background of the proposal does not appear to be productive or relevant for arriving at a solution. Roman --Signature=_Fri__21_Feb_2025_15_35_20_+0200_Qy8YQFQicP4dLnnD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEbyuIUwJNVUrtp3hK60bLvjKDmmkFAme4gRgACgkQ60bLvjKD mml0yg/+JnHq0HYZUmnrVbU1mK95j98U+zxD3n74AGBBDc5fNVUMKg5M1cYpGBrM 1yJXtK0IN3Ee0F7yLy+Aw+hw2vygw77xwG5hMWtpydetWxF8yS5AaUCcutJWs0DJ S5XybjeutX0n2vJqDb9ECCsvZDggZ3PFSKJzCcyLDEPJ8I1v8S451LcMhMnd8H89 Ao0ggFMFAvT7M/ifIISAnP4etcIlh43oAI4NXoqwZJrTlqSV/XABON0AnSnbVUYR J8gY6Mi5UD1lMChIDvRhpMLlTu4pDZfgpnxN2qe9435FFE4szzNTcyCbctSigyGk sILOIu52/yQdxqlTtJ/ZS/G1RsIHwEfeEO+14ogn5RWNw9udFuDXMWB8GKcOT3Ue 5jxih3D+Ewa4M9vVk42wa1buTx+Uika2jtAofy2oKlhTU7dv1ccLNotL0ISCU0eX YOPLV4A5P5T4LXl8xEJ6VJzCSNVtnwMbQBCBBuuCWBXkfVS344FAZzx6QpXo6FEM /ar2cgJTezi9zWDjhd04G1M8SScEJVciCRG1P4LsTQoWUfhZbahM/tTHWEZtx85T Qc8rHLmg4uUgKMCrlgkhfO0HzdxvT8EtAhevZDCxFWzcjchcFOUDrIa9wYDD6yzS vQXtR0+IwK90irmPzVJYS7O1j61yCbFOLokBw7XMUu1foYZIPgw= =3lAh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Fri__21_Feb_2025_15_35_20_+0200_Qy8YQFQicP4dLnnD--
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[85.127.114.32]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a640c23a62f3a-abb97dea08fsm1013152366b.53.2025.02.21.04.56.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 21 Feb 2025 04:56:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f78d40758e1838026fb3e796f037e917c26f761f.camel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch From: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> To: Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN>, Christopher Howard <christopher@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 13:56:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> References: <d835c85c709a393309e6cad4ab065d039f1e08af.camel@HIDDEN> <f072096c292546c760d1342aa7d4f6c950027da9.camel@HIDDEN> <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> <547c549d-970e-4331-8944-dc7a79698426@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.48.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Am Freitag, dem 21.02.2025 um 11:48 +0100 schrieb Ekaitz Zarraga: > > Third, people who feel represented by this change have no > > obligation to tell you that in this level of detail.=C2=A0 In fact, > > given the attitudes of some people replying to this GCD, it would > > be wiser for them not to. >=20 > Saying "I support" is more than enough, but I would really want to > know if they actually exist, because I'd like to make sure we are > doing this for something. Given that I've received four sponsors over the course of a weekend, I'm not really concerned that this benefits no one. > I don't think it's infeasible. It is actually very feasible, you=20 > just need to change the branch name and push. Done. >=20 > The problem is that some people already shared their concern, while I > don't see any justification for the change that has the same weight. So you mean that people have non-technical concerns about the name of the default branch? I won't repeat your arguments, but yes, I understand that you want it to remain at "master". =20 I have listed some issues that this GCD does not address at the end of the document. To my knowledge, these are the points raised so far that it cannot address. If you would like me to add another that is within the scope of the document, do let me know. > I don't see any kind of internationalist approach here, we are just > swallowing whatever garbage an US company throws to us and tells us > is good. >=20 > This proposal is very US-centric, and goes according to their values, > and religion. That's why it became popular there. Even assuming that this is true, how is this any different from swallowing garbage, that some US entity told us 10 years ago is good (i.e. the status quo)? I also don't think there is a clear mapping between "thing happening in the USA/outside the USA" and "thing good/bad". The world is more complex than that, with some nuance to it. In any case, I think that the Guix community can =E2=80=93 using the recent= ly established process for doing so =E2=80=93 reach a consensus on what the na= me of the default branch shall be.=20 > I don't think Linus Torvalds called the branch "master" thinking > about slavery or as a way to shame people,=C2=A0 This is not about Linus' intentions. People can have opinions that differ from those of Linus Torvalds. > I don't think removing the word is really going to change anything.=C2=A0 Acknowledged. > But will do some (maybe little) damage in Guix, as some people > already discussed. What damage will it to, exactly? So far, I think the concerns are - a mild inconvenience to contributors checking out the new default branch - a mild inconvenience to channel authors, requiring them to explicitly state their default branch - an almost user-invisible change possibly causing them to run=20 `guix pull` twice on a particularly old checkout Perhaps, you also consider adoption of this change to result in reputational damage to Guix. If so, why? > If we need to make the life of a couple US-Americans a little bit=20 > uncomfortable in order to keep our software working as intended, so > be it. Do we need though? Or are you simply resisting change for the sake of doing so? Note that this assertion also contradicts the one you made earlier that this change can "easily be pushed and done". =20 > I am uncomfortable every time I need to speak in english here (a=20 > reminder of how the USA imperialism is forced upon me), and here we > are. Wir k=C3=B6nnen auch Deutsch miteinander reden, damit h=C3=A4tte ich kein Problem. > Consider me done here. Okay. Cheers
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spampanel-Class: ham X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, On 2025-02-21 09:57, Liliana Marie Prikler wrote: > (Moved discussion to bug number) > > Am Donnerstag, dem 20.02.2025 um 23:57 +0100 schrieb Ekaitz Zarraga: >> I don't find this dismissive. At all. I only see a person sharing his >> opinion, which, sadly, I think is pretty hard in this kind of >> subject. > Please educate yourself on right-wing dogwhistles then. I will quote > one for context: > > Am Dienstag, dem 18.02.2025 um 06:50 -0900 schrieb Christopher Howard: >> DEI proponents have a compulsive desire to eradicate from society and >> language anything that has some vague connection to what they find >> displeasing. Telling people to educate themselves could also be offensive and all, but you don't hesitate to do it. Do you actually care about being welcoming? Just food for thought. Listen, I don't give a shit about the political views of Christopher, or whatever you think about them. People has the right to be right-wingers, weather we like it or not. Just that is enough to discard somebody's opinion? Is that diversity? Doesn't "right-with dog-whistle" sound a little bit like "woke". To me, it does. Keep throwing names to the table, while nobody else in the world cares about your left vs right debate. We are making software for people. For all people that wants to use it. Bad news: many of them are right wingers. And some of them are between us. And I believe they are also welcome here, as long as they don't mistreat any other person (the same as the left wingers or the no-wingers). > Am Donnerstag, dem 20.02.2025 um 23:57 +0100 schrieb Ekaitz Zarraga: >> I made questions, and no one has give me an answer that is anything >> more than a feeling of something they don't suffer themselves. >> Nobody, specially not even a single black person, who were supposed >> to be the reason for all this, has ever told me this is something >> they feel represented with this change. > First, this is not just about black people, but any group of people > that feels uncomfortable with the term "master" being used in this > context. Uncomfortable? I am uncomfortable writing in english, as it is my third language. Should we change the language to spanish, my mother tongue? There's a lot of people in the basque community that get angry when a basque talks in spanish, so those are going to be uncomfortable... We should change to Basque! That will make everybody happy. The term "master" being used in this context does not have anything to do with anything that should make anyone uncomfortable. Isn't the word "git" itself way worse in that sense? Guix is a Catalan surname, maybe some of them are uncomfortable by its name, we should change it too! > Second, people can care about matters they are not personally affected > by. It's called having empathy. Well, people can also invent a problem, as I just did. That's not empathy. > Third, people who feel represented by this change have no obligation to > tell you that in this level of detail. In fact, given the attitudes of > some people replying to this GCD, it would be wiser for them not to. Saying "I support" is more than enough, but I would really want to know if they actually exist, because I'd like to make sure we are doing this for something. What do you think it's going to happen if they speak their truth? Are they going to be harassed? By who? The only thing I see here is people saying they don't like the change being mistreated as they were some kind of right wing scum. >> If a change is going to negatively affect the users of the software I >> make I need to justify it properly. >> >> Until this very moment, nobody did. Even if I am actually very >> concerned about human rights, I find the arguments exposed not only >> in this thread but also in the original Git branch naming discussion >> very poor. > I think you are — intentionally or otherwise — overestimating the > negative effects of the proposed change in order to construct a world > where it is infeasible. No, I don't think it's infeasible. It is actually very feasible, you just need to change the branch name and push. Done. The problem is that some people already shared their concern, while I don't see any justification for the change that has the same weight. >> More specifically in Guix, I'm still yet to find a good thing coming >> from this change, and there are many cons already. It's a net >> negative change from a technical perspective. > There is little technical debate to be had about this change being > feasible. Git supports named branches — it always has — and > sufficiently recent versions also support an initial branch that isn't > "master". > > There can be a discussion of what steps would need to be made in Guix > particularly to accommodate this change. This concerns locations in > the code and documentation that assume "master" to be the default name > of a Guix channel, particularly the default Guix channel (i.e. "guix"). > > The issue of what to name the default branch is entirely a > political/organizational one, one in which we cannot avoid showing the > colour of our hearts as we debate. I disagree. Very strongly. It's you, and those who think like you, who is charging this word with some political value it doesn't have. I am NOT in favor of slavery and I am NOT against making everybody's live easier. (and interestingly I'm probably in the same side of the political spectrum as you are). What I discuss here is that I don't think there is any kind of relation with changing this stupid word and making the world a better place. That doesn't show the color of my heart, because I'm just trying to be rational here. We serve the world. Our political views (or how you call them: the color of our heart) are very narrow. I don't see any kind of internationalist approach here, we are just swallowing whatever garbage an US company throws to us and tells us is good. This proposal is very US-centric, and goes according to their values, and religion. That's why it became popular there. Thankfully for many, the world is not the United States of America. In my view there's nothing shameful in words, even in the F word or in the N word. The wrong in is in the intention. The intention you have here Liliana is good. But I don't think Linus Torvalds called the branch "master" thinking about slavery or as a way to shame people, and I don't think removing the word is really going to change anything. But will do some (maybe little) damage in Guix, as some people already discussed. If we need to make the life of a couple US-Americans a little bit uncomfortable in order to keep our software working as intended, so be it. I am uncomfortable every time I need to speak in english here (a reminder of how the USA imperialism is forced upon me), and here we are. --- This debate is draining me, so consider me done here. In the end, you are trying to make this look like those who oppose the change are not welcoming neither empathetic, and that's bullshit. The funny thing of all this is that the times I have felt unwelcome, and I have been gaslighted in this community, and I have seen passive-aggressive answers was coming from you, Liliana, and I have been trying to avoid interacting with you for long because of it. I don't like this change, and I don't like to see that you are trying to make this whole thing look like we are bad people. I am not convinced.
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[85.127.114.32]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-38f258ccd95sm22809386f8f.25.2025.02.21.00.57.16 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 21 Feb 2025 00:57:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <d2db73de82bb7bb3a6589a4299287d02dc961c14.camel@HIDDEN> Subject: [bug#76407] [GCD] Rename the default branch From: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> To: Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@HIDDEN>, Vagrant Cascadian <vagrant@HIDDEN>, Christopher Howard <christopher@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 09:57:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> References: <d835c85c709a393309e6cad4ab065d039f1e08af.camel@HIDDEN> <f072096c292546c760d1342aa7d4f6c950027da9.camel@HIDDEN> <87seocwh1p.fsf@HIDDEN> <87msej45ha.fsf@HIDDEN> <87wmdk8fpd.fsf@wireframe> <c2532d09-e54b-49fe-9ace-dca55239f394@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.48.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) (Moved discussion to bug number) Am Donnerstag, dem 20.02.2025 um 23:57 +0100 schrieb Ekaitz Zarraga: > I don't find this dismissive. At all. I only see a person sharing his > opinion, which, sadly, I think is pretty hard in this kind of > subject. Please educate yourself on right-wing dogwhistles then. I will quote one for context: Am Dienstag, dem 18.02.2025 um 06:50 -0900 schrieb Christopher Howard: > DEI proponents have a compulsive desire to eradicate from society and > language anything that has some vague connection to what they find > displeasing. Am Donnerstag, dem 20.02.2025 um 23:57 +0100 schrieb Ekaitz Zarraga: > I made questions, and no one has give me an answer that is anything > more than a feeling of something they don't suffer themselves. > Nobody, specially not even a single black person, who were supposed > to be the reason for all this, has ever told me this is something > they feel represented with this change. First, this is not just about black people, but any group of people that feels uncomfortable with the term "master" being used in this context. Second, people can care about matters they are not personally affected by. It's called having empathy. Third, people who feel represented by this change have no obligation to tell you that in this level of detail. In fact, given the attitudes of some people replying to this GCD, it would be wiser for them not to. > If a change is going to negatively affect the users of the software I > make I need to justify it properly. >=20 > Until this very moment, nobody did. Even if I am actually very > concerned about human rights, I find the arguments exposed not only > in this thread but also in the original Git branch naming discussion > very poor. I think you are =E2=80=94 intentionally or otherwise =E2=80=94 overestimati= ng the negative effects of the proposed change in order to construct a world where it is infeasible. > [T]hose who oppose them have to justify them to death,=20 > while being respectful, but also carefully not to sound like Nazis to > them. Well, they could at least be courteous about it and not scream "DEI" and "woke" at a proposed change they do not like or something. =E2=80=BE\_(=E3=83=84)_/=E2=80=BE > More specifically in Guix, I'm still yet to find a good thing coming=20 > from this change, and there are many cons already. It's a net > negative change from a technical perspective. There is little technical debate to be had about this change being feasible. Git supports named branches =E2=80=94 it always has =E2=80=94 an= d sufficiently recent versions also support an initial branch that isn't "master". There can be a discussion of what steps would need to be made in Guix particularly to accommodate this change. This concerns locations in the code and documentation that assume "master" to be the default name of a Guix channel, particularly the default Guix channel (i.e. "guix"). The issue of what to name the default branch is entirely a political/organizational one, one in which we cannot avoid showing the colour of our hearts as we debate. Am Donnerstag, dem 20.02.2025 um 14:44 -0900 schrieb Christopher Howard: > Also, I think that the word "main" is just as bigoted and non- > inclusive as "master". I mean, what can be more demeaning than saying > that one branch is the "main" one and in some sense more important > than the others? Perhaps one branch being the "master record", the only trusted, authentic source, whereas all others =E2=80=94 particularly those that had changes applied to them =E2=80=94 are untrusted and/or inauthentic by distinction. In practice, the main branch requires certain guarantees that other branches do not: team branches can (and arguably should) routinely be rebased on the main branch. If the main branch were to be rebased, however, all users would receive an error upon pull. Cheers
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:58:28 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:58:10 +0000 From: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice <me@HIDDEN> To: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: [GCD] A better name for the default branch Message-ID: <CA3E79B7-498C-44E6-BD90-85E8531AABF5@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Autocrypt: addr=me@HIDDEN; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFVks2ABEACjGBPhWf/qx0L9OhEIrAFTimo5dHa1FLy0AHaHvxmwYSIdJmERYGiNle1rcOvw cFRtu8KJUsrs27Vgoso3qHJpghVitUUf0v3ZuXQT9kfuQLz1Y8pyMzHwVFMLiJVj4Z3y7CJk+xyZ cpSAMbyPINbFVEhsK+z+8ojVGuaiucZkib6b67ySG6Pp1bon8xVvosj71ZRjfXh1t4X8laWO7fQq itT9lmc6DxbE/4vIhR+Vb2MblaA+DyHoNHGGao89h4CO99lfzWzsux41DnEG9d317sJRQTig6Wja EKHXZRA9FbfogD4SDa2uQYCpTJpsVjAyZyu2fuJ+t0zJJ+Ai9qDY87P6hOyd+/n8Eh2Y4TbxJiDo XUT72XY/RfPH1qrMIP3EI/NNL4LQeGG1n+625k3OVWcRVXG2vRrB6qurLmGkLEmjXWCFD9cCRGfH LeajLm9sM+t/nZPZ3btetcmK9tM2EwivyLUNhrTk73UUnI4CSAzdO2cISqo9zSMtFgj2alqd2fOR s7CKfEn+5PquruDbp/Ej7dOOrjgWSCXLDDYXRrtaKrLz/dhqq5ftFYi9tUTTQecFotM08fPtu+Kw JMP2ySHCkUqp0GvrUCeSRPAJZsmJrd535y+LlRhnqb0mbG4dgMa8A6xhkFYugnqldy/q7kX1EmRI 686N7bA6fh1MCQARAQABtCRUb2JpYXMgR2VlcmluY2t4LVJpY2UgPG1lQHRvYmlhcy5ncj6JAlIE EwEKADwCHgECF4ACGQECGwMWIQT1vFU0w28Ah7OdNu8cncT+udt8SwUCXpe0rAYLCQgHCgQFFQoJ CAsFFgMCAQAACgkQHJ3E/rnbfEu5IhAAk+0BW/twLmx1xMmeXn+I7Ne6SG3++0TRBduEaGWV3n59 lX6XPZUQdAPpS4uy0H+c90Owkw+aWUEwfyOWphrxZRtR2cCOP/3Pxj3Vgtz5RkY4u27lMj15jqa/ p7l2l256ZKJOegr9TvOWtkhMp5lxeVHT6f/44Kv/r/8mMCgSnLXYrEWPE462xI+mIJOanHLJb6No f2xLRCvXoLLp7Yejjv1dwOO71R9PMRhtNy46pZM1ylQ++UTkeSocJw4aNtiu0DHOkX9AlNBkutIx x07RpO+MqJKlzzLeQiC/fE5+dR2itRONopwXAqN3MuT7MonQo5XifBn+VK8i9xZWTXZDkWItWtCC 8oIj4zwxwFWiTmMwwSbI3Wdd/11Zw3CLc4Gd0M6NVgvAnuErQXSgr4lrWhZcncvi4L6EJTc9AUSa 8UWPF+S9t+CHTukpJmcYnsccMkOBhT7OZlmWBsylrYK/JTRWqgWSHWdSKmOuLK+MGDneOZEHkEcf jeXRWvmG7MSU5tE/p7NDLIg9vkvhQV9b0q4OtY65uNWbRe2QRJaYMDcYUAeSZzivRa8VaoVen6tb FvH44zpCxubn23ABl9YIzwvJC++r+H2qLdLpy0cfITiZadZ74Ae0aosNw7XARS6OY+A03BfXyPiI 2oW0jf/PdH9sh2mQrQxIQJ5cZz6Z3X20MFRvYmlhcyBHZWVyaW5ja3gtUmljZSAodG9iaWFzLmdy KSA8bWVAdG9iaWFzLmdyPokCNgQwAQoAIBYhBPW8VTTDbwCHs5027xydxP6523xLBQJZUuJkAh0g AAoJEBydxP6523xLwEoP/iaVWdICefmaZ+bkdUg6hwTKxSPlYdLoaCxYI5V2NnZYXG0dy47E7WJP 4EmTDldcne4UG5NyCgXPSMZDNMqcddEMNbmlssTcLKyu6R/VvTcuL3pEhNoLzm9t2IHR/YGAHJIc pyfmJ3amGSlsbo6s6Vv+mbrJTRPIDpLUst/PDoGYihcSKTxoIw8RtNAy+FAliIdJ8ZuPA3BTxQei sQzgWJo68UInvnFp4juq0zupNDqKddemI8kZCRK/fFPBDD71nqiSJjx2tvbjkTiPU9gmTp7Nulgj ZATZIt0pUhn87w15ItzrsiEjTYCMTmHY5wnvyLarFKZLzQjgUJfsbv4WRJRnX0/EEJWMvMtSdtXL fjwTLrSGAr4vh13PMfE6uVkGkeCV/8BfGJqRE4zkI+QOVILw6VSAP6sdtGSGb52bcCuPj7p9zGIB IuKFudT+DzUb5uV2jbahSjJ8X4Ak/ruG2Hv3iICZawDpHV1JDNgY910KNi5T6gFrjFA2G6aiXDCO SlToLPnPBYH85UVOsp2VykE9AREKS7a7o76cibjwBNN+4xJqJRxhs9YH4JKzE3w/ptVnx49QFBGc pjPkzMTs7DtanD8iqL4J6afnycv9KqIlNJONaMHvzxeunV7QCsoF6DdusZJKFMexiDBaOFUmGFFS XfzK2oNjknx1QApyTPvhiQJpBBMBCgBTAhsvAh4BAheAAhkBBAsJCAcFFQoJCAsFFgMCAQASGGhr cDovL3BncC5taXQuZWR1FiEE9bxVNMNvAIeznTbvHJ3E/rnbfEsFAllS4TwFCRa6MNwACgkQHJ3E /rnbfEuMFg//csSmcerqM+h1jwlKPJ4UiLXj3kFxSuSr0DrJzgLIpjuMdB2bhJ3YZwJTrZI9P7DP v+ebTKoeCjxoi5zJcINakZ9/FBn3cOCsYmpdHdaOPm34pHh9c0y9+NAvGJvugBRWIWK3qYYJzjff YL1r5lGCM4FXuhTcjVTTs5iCvYlAhtnHEAM6+c+mftdwrCJaqCiz3G13OCtpujn8fOn/B2nv6ZdT hen3Xqh3xBU2PnxPhVtyOulsJ318SKbUAk0h3tbLLkzFIS+7XvpHuwB72NkZw233IAN1Uq/nmJK/ YIsi+icNGpI60+PnLFiqYrSmtD6BCf8pOPq+isscu5uTuhfHt8fjLZPiqyf12CLoNKIp94sUi/1n M75GKz9MPWs6vqosq+E1xs9wVBw0gwUluejWgg3mIE3754W6xQ6tnpspdrt+x5kykfPMD3r1T8uq +z4ZUtE3A6QIjjxzIN0Xk8ZpC5Mg3yUzhyM1qF4e8pM2U7/tJC9BO5CNWJmKBqmGZ5sYw85wjEZ+ WnfU770tgCGZjcjIYjqYuoCgHMd2J8pkXdf76CINWK4+fCoKHr/4kWfU3e8ikFStTBer/Bu5tXa5 RPh90F6l2DNRitUdv+7vAiFnAuP61ZSUSqRbOiE1SPTv4cGBOCgB7xIOU6+rKzlweR/vO0otLZc+ TyFnSKPrfzg= X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) There's a (broken) thread discussing this proposal on guix-devel@: <https://lists=2Egnu=2Eorg/archive/html/guix-devel/2025-02/msg00278=2Ehtml= > <https://lists=2Egnu=2Eorg/archive/html/guix-devel/2025-02/msg00357=2Ehtml= > I hope it continues here instead=2E Kind regards, T G-R Sent on the go=2E Excuse or enjoy my brevity=2E
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[85.127.114.32]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-38f258b4344sm21583708f8f.13.2025.02.20.10.23.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 20 Feb 2025 10:23:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <035d5bb2e0fe23419879b1566789d82eb604d887.camel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] A better name for the default branch From: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> To: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>, 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 19:23:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87frk8lea9.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <b900cd17b88123af3ae95f4e7d572e540f86e879.camel@HIDDEN> <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> <87frk8lea9.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.48.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: info-guix@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Am Donnerstag, dem 20.02.2025 um 18:25 +0100 schrieb Simon Tournier: > Hi Liliana, >=20 > A minor comment is to title: =E2=80=9CRename the default branch name=E2= =80=9C or > =E2=80=9CRename from master to main=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 And not use word as = =E2=80=9Cbetter=E2=80=9D. Okay. > Now, it=E2=80=99s submitted, I recommend to push this revision to a dedic= ated > branch, say =E2=80=99wip-default-branch-name=E2=80=99 directly to the GCD= s > repository. > [=E2=80=A6] > Feel free to just fetch and push if it appears to you fine. I fetched and updated; preserving history. > > +SPDX-License-Identifier: CC-BY-SA-4.0 OR GFDL-1.3-no-invariants- > > only >=20 > The recommendation is GFDL-1.3-no-invariants-or-later; see [1,2].=C2=A0 > And I think it would be better, no?=C2=A0 Maybe you have something > specific in mind? Nah, I just copied one of the outdated templates D: Cheers
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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From: Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>
To: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN>, 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] A better name for the default branch
In-Reply-To: <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN>
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<79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 18:25:02 +0100
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Hi Liliana,
A minor comment is to title: =E2=80=9CRename the default branch name=E2=80=
=9C or =E2=80=9CRename
from master to main=E2=80=9D. And not use word as =E2=80=9Cbetter=E2=80=9D.
The rest is logistical stuff, FWIW.
On Tue, 18 Feb 2025 at 23:14, Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@gmail.=
com> wrote:
> +status: submitted
> +discussion: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/76407
> +authors: Liliana Marie Prikler
> +sponsors: Simon Tournier, Ian Eure, Vagrant Cascadian, Ludovic Court=C3=
=A8s
> +date: 2025-02-18
Now, it=E2=80=99s submitted, I recommend to push this revision to a dedicat=
ed
branch, say =E2=80=99wip-default-branch-name=E2=80=99 directly to the GCDs =
repository.
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/guix-consensus-documents.git
Well, I did but instead of pushing to it, I only pushed to my personal
copy of the repository:
https://codeberg.org/zimoun/guix-consensus-documents/commits/branch/wip=
-default-branch-name
Feel free to just fetch and push if it appears to you fine.
Why? Based on the experience of 001, it can quickly become a mess. :-)
There is several revisions in different emails and all becomes harder
and harder to follow. Do I read the last revision? This one? And no
there is this yet another email? And that MUA screwed up the subject=E2=80=
=A6
etc. Hard to follow; especially for the ones who just want to read the
last current revision.
Moreover, it=E2=80=99s more comfortable to read a plain file than a diff, I=
MHO.
For example, one revision of 001:
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/guix-consensus-documents.git/tre=
e/0001-rfc-process.md?id=3D7da54b980efcd23ce662040b00712bd7fa76982e
(It perfectly works with Emacs browser EWW so it works for any browser. ;-))
Last, having all the revisions in a dedicated branch allows to easily
diff between each revision.
My 2 cents. :-)
> +SPDX-License-Identifier: CC-BY-SA-4.0 OR GFDL-1.3-no-invariants-only
The recommendation is GFDL-1.3-no-invariants-or-later; see [1,2]. And I
think it would be better, no? Maybe you have something specific in
mind?
1: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/guix-consensus-documents.git/tree=
/000-template.md?id=3Dc6a594ceb316e23bea975928eb2f40b7df450c94#n8
2: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/guix-consensus-documents.git/tree=
/001-gcd-process.md?id=3Dc6a594ceb316e23bea975928eb2f40b7df450c94#n8
Cheers,
simon
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[85.127.114.32]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-38f25a0fa1esm18385732f8f.100.2025.02.19.11.01.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 19 Feb 2025 11:01:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <64c4631029ff07927e3a1cb181be2ea05df8a03a.camel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] A better name for the default branch From: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> To: Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN>, 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 20:01:45 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87wmdlhmu4.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <b900cd17b88123af3ae95f4e7d572e540f86e879.camel@HIDDEN> <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> <87wmdlhmu4.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.48.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, Am Mittwoch, dem 19.02.2025 um 17:21 +0000 schrieb Christopher Baines: > > +=C2=A0 1. the `branch` field in `.guix-channel`; >=20 > This doesn't exist as far as I'm aware? >=20 > That record does have a url field, which is important as it means > that Guix can highlight when there is a mismatch between the URL > being used and the contents of the channel. >=20 > I think it's worth considering what a similar mechanism might look > like for branch names. Maybe Guix could have a notion of whether it's > using the "primary" branch for a channel (if you pull or time-machine > to a specific --branch, this is ignored), and that record could > contain the name of the primary branch, and then Guix could highlight > when the two differ. Nice catch. I did copy the wording from the Codeberg GCD, which talks about updating URL. If `branch` is not considered by .guix-channel, that's one field less to update. > That mechanism would allow for clearer messaging to users, since they > could see it again and again, rather than a news entry which would > usually only be shown once. >=20 > > (define-record-type* <channel> channel make-channel > > =C2=A0 channel? > > =C2=A0 (name=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 channel-name) > > =C2=A0 (url=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 channel-url) > > =C2=A0 (branch=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 channel-branch (default "master")) > > =C2=A0 (commit=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 channel-commit (default #f)) > > =C2=A0 (introduction channel-introduction (default #f)) > > =C2=A0 (location=C2=A0 channel-location > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 (default (current-source-location)) (innate))) >=20 > Is changing or removing the channel-branch default in the scope of > this GCD? I think channel-branch should reflect the new default. > I'm in two minds about this. It's just the default, so it's trivial > to change it for the default channel. But ignoring it doesn't seem > consistent with the rest of the proposal. >=20 > Additionally, if the guix channel changes, then this might encourage > people managing other channels to make similar changes, and I think > there might be different and potentially more serious technical > issues with managing that change. I think it would be sensible to > ensure there's a good path for channels in general to change branch > naming before making the switch for the Guix channel. Perhaps we could warn channel authors in advance that the default branch is subject to change and ask them to set "branch" explicitly. > > +Following this commit, an entry in `etc/news.scm` would explain > > the > > +migration.=C2=A0 The `master` branch would then point at the commit of > > said > > +news entry, and would need to be updated only after said news are > > +translated into another language. >=20 > In this scenario, assuming you're suggesting only pushing the news > entry related commits to "master", I think the branches diverging > would be problematic. The point here is that we don't have to keep master updated indefinitely, but it should point towards a commit that is also on main. Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli has another idea using symbolic references. > Assuming you're using the default channel configuration, if you pull > to one of these commits on "master", which isn't on the new master > branch, then I think the next time you go to pull, you'd hit the > downgrade protections (or at least you should do), since this is > exactly the kind of downgrade attack that it's trying to prevent > against. You'd be pulling a commit which isn't a descendant of the > commit you're currently on. See above. > ... >=20 > I also haven't even started to think about what implications this > would have for the services I'm involved with maintaining. The data > service instances and the bordeaux build coordinator all have current > and historic references to the "master" branch. In particular, the > data service goes beyond branches being pointers to commits and > records the state of branches over time. >=20 > It isn't immediately obvious to me how the data service could be > adapted to handle branches changing name to both capture that a > branch may have never actually pointed at a commit, but that commit > is in the history of the branch in the Git sense. I think with the > current behaviour, we'd have the history of the "master" branch > (unless that's deleted), and then separately the history for the new > master (not "master") branch, but that would start when that branch > was cteated, and the two histories would be separate from the view of > the data service, and this representation seems rather lacking. Good point, we should add a section talking about the Guix Data Service. Cheers
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
Full text available.Received: (at 76407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2025 17:21:48 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 19 12:21:47 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50593 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tknla-0005vL-FG for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2025 12:21:47 -0500 Received: from mira.cbaines.net ([2a01:7e00:e000:2f8:fd4d:b5c7:13fb:3d27]:41871) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mail@HIDDEN>) id 1tknlY-0005ux-1w for 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2025 12:21:45 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [IPv6:2a02:6b67:e390:8b00::2000]) by mira.cbaines.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E808127BBE2; Wed, 19 Feb 2025 17:21:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fang (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id eaedf0d3; Wed, 19 Feb 2025 17:21:41 +0000 (UTC) From: Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN> To: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: [bug#76407] [GCD] A better name for the default branch In-Reply-To: <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> (Liliana Marie Prikler's message of "Tue, 18 Feb 2025 23:14:29 +0100") References: <b900cd17b88123af3ae95f4e7d572e540f86e879.camel@HIDDEN> <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 17:21:39 +0000 Message-ID: <87wmdlhmu4.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 Cc: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> writes: > +## Manual Updates > + > +Sections 19 (Security Updates) and 22 (Contributing) of the Guix manual > +would need to be reworded to reflect the new default branch. Other > +sections mentioning =E2=80=9Cmaster=E2=80=9D branches may be reworded at= any time > +regardless of this GCD. Some mentions of the word =E2=80=9Cmaster=E2=80= =9D are tied to > +particular services and thus subject to rewording only once upstream > +adopts a different terminology. > + > +## Repository Update Path > + > +For a complete list of repositories associated with the Guix project, > +see GCD 002 =E2=80=98Migrating repositories, issues, and patches to Code= berg=E2=80=99. > +Most repositories can rename their default branch with no issue > +(see also Cost of Reverting below). > + > +For Guix itself, we would decide on a **flag day** 14 days after > +acceptance of this GCD at the earliest, and 30 days at the latest. > +On that day, the main development branch would become "main". > +A commit would reflect that by updating: > + > + 1. the `branch` field in `.guix-channel`; > + 2. the `branch` field of `%default-guix-channel` in `(guix channels)`; > + 3. any other reference to the "master" branch of the Guix repository > + that may appear in the repository (in particular the Manual Updates > + above). > + > +Following this commit, an entry in `etc/news.scm` would explain the > +migration. The `master` branch would then point at the commit of said > +news entry, and would need to be updated only after said news are > +translated into another language. The `master` branch may keep following > +the `main` branch for a grace period of 30 days anyways. > + > +Even after the `master` branch no longer syncs up to main, it may be > +important to still have it pointing at some commit. Old installation > +media, handcrafted `channels.scm`, external documentation and scripts > +may all still be referring to the `master` branch even long after the > +rename (see also Cost of Reverting below). To ensure that these do > +not fail immediately, the old branch shall not be deleted until > + > +1. at least one year has passed since this GCD has been accepted, AND > +2. enough Guix releases have been made in the meantime, meaning > + a. at least one major release, OR > + b. at least three minor releases. Thanks for writing this GCD up, I have other comments and thoughts, and while I'm not against changing the branch name in principle my main objection is this, I'm not sure we're technically ready (or at least in a good state) to change the branch name for the default Guix channel. > + 1. the `branch` field in `.guix-channel`; This doesn't exist as far as I'm aware? That record does have a url field, which is important as it means that Guix can highlight when there is a mismatch between the URL being used and the contents of the channel. I think it's worth considering what a similar mechanism might look like for branch names. Maybe Guix could have a notion of whether it's using the "primary" branch for a channel (if you pull or time-machine to a specific --branch, this is ignored), and that record could contain the name of the primary branch, and then Guix could highlight when the two differ. That mechanism would allow for clearer messaging to users, since they could see it again and again, rather than a news entry which would usually only be shown once. > (define-record-type* <channel> channel make-channel > channel? > (name channel-name) > (url channel-url) > (branch channel-branch (default "master")) > (commit channel-commit (default #f)) > (introduction channel-introduction (default #f)) > (location channel-location > (default (current-source-location)) (innate))) Is changing or removing the channel-branch default in the scope of this GCD? I'm in two minds about this. It's just the default, so it's trivial to change it for the default channel. But ignoring it doesn't seem consistent with the rest of the proposal. Additionally, if the guix channel changes, then this might encourage people managing other channels to make similar changes, and I think there might be different and potentially more serious technical issues with managing that change. I think it would be sensible to ensure there's a good path for channels in general to change branch naming before making the switch for the Guix channel. > +Following this commit, an entry in `etc/news.scm` would explain the > +migration. The `master` branch would then point at the commit of said > +news entry, and would need to be updated only after said news are > +translated into another language. In this scenario, assuming you're suggesting only pushing the news entry related commits to "master", I think the branches diverging would be problematic. Assuming you're using the default channel configuration, if you pull to one of these commits on "master", which isn't on the new master branch, then I think the next time you go to pull, you'd hit the downgrade protections (or at least you should do), since this is exactly the kind of downgrade attack that it's trying to prevent against. You'd be pulling a commit which isn't a descendant of the commit you're currently on. ... I also haven't even started to think about what implications this would have for the services I'm involved with maintaining. The data service instances and the bordeaux build coordinator all have current and historic references to the "master" branch. In particular, the data service goes beyond branches being pointers to commits and records the state of branches over time. It isn't immediately obvious to me how the data service could be adapted to handle branches changing name to both capture that a branch may have never actually pointed at a commit, but that commit is in the history of the branch in the Git sense. I think with the current behaviour, we'd have the history of the "master" branch (unless that's deleted), and then separately the history for the new master (not "master") branch, but that would start when that branch was cteated, and the two histories would be separate from the view of the data service, and this representation seems rather lacking. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKlBAEBCgCPFiEEPonu50WOcg2XVOCyXiijOwuE9XcFAme2EyNfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDNF ODlFRUU3NDU4RTcyMEQ5NzU0RTBCMjVFMjhBMzNCMEI4NEY1NzcRHG1haWxAY2Jh aW5lcy5uZXQACgkQXiijOwuE9XeeyQ/+M8Yj3zAXG3uAmOD3aC0nwPXWi3bVZXTD Sa1bHj6uXil1RpHKndDiMLFjxzb6pjmeJzTkDfKaXdFRlRtbxOYtFNF7hBT+ocCH TyInCDFmFlkX8vQa3kJIAzBqWwAYERQccQBvOA7J85u6/k69DClu8TKiilimaxfY hd0Xqv2tpv+LK755OSX17vZ7PY9kwGtCZGyyyzwfQ4XXuZpb0daCgg1fZ9CbKz7L bsokjYTGLp1r+3kH0OHspEpRJdfEhFXAkUlnPrQEcaUlJYNQzI9/zXX7DpV9hOd1 uT5Pzkv27qOIU3J2xxBK4e9uaCfqg6rMPGmE10kIf3i41HftydnDH6yx+oywVUzt lVVUu0tBYsgO7MkRQONnwyfwEp925EJIZ3pYQWuibo6B68wWPD7qASBuHPLDt/U6 C4hDvwNTgRFXm3mpSGm4bTVF/91QXcpyYX8pR2Z3u8Pm8kDYVdZielHrlSzIxl3o 0SfEoWSlcQtvvmE0VxepLe9GSC1a1BjcmXtV6FDkZo5Cizv7w08O86D7CGKSQ3vO IRRAOfnsH8Ax/gRdhyq1ivgrM7NhVfj1z/c6yxLl/ufpUTigRDp7sBeFusjzCfjN vqGjlAeZUPk3nWDaQDnbWlloxrwNn7yNI/6ERxhW1Bf3Wec78KjfRglLjmAuEQie CHYZtBNH/X0= =RZOY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--
guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[85.127.114.32]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-38f258b4491sm15813347f8f.7.2025.02.18.14.23.22 for <76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 18 Feb 2025 14:23:23 -0800 (PST) From: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> X-Debbugs-CC: info-guix@HIDDEN Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 23:14:29 +0100 Subject: [GCD] A better name for the default branch to: 76407 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: <79bad06a6410932dd6c7785256fd589cfaff40f6.camel@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76407 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Hi Guix, this patch introduces GCD 003 “A better name for the default branch”. I've taken the comments on guix-devel into account (most of them anyway) and updated the document accordingly. Note that references to GCD 002 are made. That GCD was drafted earlier, but may or may not already be submitted by the time you read this. Do be patient :) Cheers --- 003-better-default-branch-name.md | 187 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1 file changed, 187 insertions(+) create mode 100644 003-better-default-branch-name.md diff --git a/003-better-default-branch-name.md b/003-better-default-branch-name.md new file mode 100644 index 0000000..95952a5 --- /dev/null +++ b/003-better-default-branch-name.md @@ -0,0 +1,187 @@ +title: A better name for the default branch +id: 003 +status: submitted +discussion: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/76407 +authors: Liliana Marie Prikler +sponsors: Simon Tournier, Ian Eure, Vagrant Cascadian, Ludovic Courtès +date: 2025-02-18 +SPDX-License-Identifier: CC-BY-SA-4.0 OR GFDL-1.3-no-invariants-only +--- + +# Summary + +Currently, much of Guix's development takes place on the “master” +branch. This name is neither particularly meaningful nor inclusive; +choosing to use it may inadvertently alienate potential contributors. +To mitigate these effects, we should more clearly communicate, what the +default branch is all about. + +# Motivation + +It is well known, that Git works with whatever branch name one chooses. +However, for historical reasons, the default/initial/main branch for +development used to be “master” — particularly in 2012, when the first +commit to Guix was made. + +Recent versions of Git support arbitrary initial branches and the +default branch name is subject to change upstream, at least in part +because the current default — “master” — may be perceived as harmful. +While the intended meaning is something close to “an original, from +which copies are made”, there are several other meanings of the word +that spring to mind more easily, some of have a racist or sexist +connotation. + +One goal of the Guix community is to foster a healthy community around +the software we use. Using clear language that does not pertain to +harmful stereotypes is a key towards achieving this goal. Thus, as a +proactive step, we should rename the default branch. + +# Detailed Design + +This section explains the chosen solution among the available options, +the scope of the proposed migration, and a migration path. + +## Scope of this document + +This document discusses only to change the name of the default branch, +not to change the branching strategy. Such ideas, e.g. to have a +“stable” branch containing only bug-fixes and well-tested features +and an “unstable” or “experimental” branch would need to be discussed +in a separate document. + +## Choice of branch name + +In this section, we discuss potential branch names that have been +considered. The goal is to find a name that Guix contributors, as a +whole, feel comfortable with. + +While this GCD is still being reviewed, new suggestions may be added, +and benefits and drawbacks for each name discussed. Once this GCD is +accepted, these benefits and drawbacks shall be shortly summarized, +and a final decision with a short justification as the one at the end +of this section shall be the last paragraph of this section. + +- The currently used “master” has more than ten different meanings, + some of them pertaining to slavery, others to dominance, and yet + others merely to skill and expertise. It is understandable that some + contributors would feel uncomfortable with this name, given that not + all uses are equally frequent. + +- The currently proposed alternative “main” has several meanings + relating to “importance”, the most obvious being “most important”. + +- Other alternatives would be “trunk” as a visual metaphor from + which “branches” spawn, and “base” with the same meaning. + +- “guix” being the name of the project also serves as an option, + albeit one that is not clearly defined (are the other branches + not guix as well?) + +- Similar to “guix”, “development” merely signifies that some sort + of development happens on the branch; a fact that should hold for + most, if not all branches. + +We choose “main” simply because it is currently the explicit initial +branch for a git checkout as per `git-fetch` in `(guix build git)`. +Another name could be chosen by any means that support achieving a +consensus, e.g. comments on this GCD or a popular vote. + +## Manual Updates + +Sections 19 (Security Updates) and 22 (Contributing) of the Guix manual +would need to be reworded to reflect the new default branch. Other +sections mentioning “master” branches may be reworded at any time +regardless of this GCD. Some mentions of the word “master” are tied to +particular services and thus subject to rewording only once upstream +adopts a different terminology. + +## Repository Update Path + +For a complete list of repositories associated with the Guix project, +see GCD 002 ‘Migrating repositories, issues, and patches to Codeberg’. +Most repositories can rename their default branch with no issue +(see also Cost of Reverting below). + +For Guix itself, we would decide on a **flag day** 14 days after +acceptance of this GCD at the earliest, and 30 days at the latest. +On that day, the main development branch would become "main". +A commit would reflect that by updating: + + 1. the `branch` field in `.guix-channel`; + 2. the `branch` field of `%default-guix-channel` in `(guix channels)`; + 3. any other reference to the "master" branch of the Guix repository + that may appear in the repository (in particular the Manual Updates + above). + +Following this commit, an entry in `etc/news.scm` would explain the +migration. The `master` branch would then point at the commit of said +news entry, and would need to be updated only after said news are +translated into another language. The `master` branch may keep following +the `main` branch for a grace period of 30 days anyways. + +Even after the `master` branch no longer syncs up to main, it may be +important to still have it pointing at some commit. Old installation +media, handcrafted `channels.scm`, external documentation and scripts +may all still be referring to the `master` branch even long after the +rename (see also Cost of Reverting below). To ensure that these do +not fail immediately, the old branch shall not be deleted until + +1. at least one year has passed since this GCD has been accepted, AND +2. enough Guix releases have been made in the meantime, meaning + a. at least one major release, OR + b. at least three minor releases. + +## Continuous Integration + +The jobset for the `master` branch would be removed and a jobset for the +`main` branch with the highest priority and the same set of architectures +would be created. + +## Relation to other Guix Consensus Documents + +Since this change has the potential to affect users and contributors in +ways that will disrupt their workflow for some amount of time as they +reconfigure their local checkouts to point at the new branch, it should +best be adopted as the same time as other, similar changes. In particular, +an adoption at the same time as GCD 002 ‘Migrating repositories, issues, +and patches to Codeberg’ is desirable. + +The repository update path in this GCD is only valid as long as it is +simultaneously upheld by other, similar GCDs. Again GCD 002 ‘Migrating +repositories, issues, and patches to Codeberg’ needs to be considered as +a possibly simultaneous change. For the sake of clarity, the promises +made in the repository update path w.r.t. the availability of the old +branch shall not exceed those of any other accepted GCD and instead +be updated to match. + +## Cost of Reverting + +This change mostly affects contributors, who would have to run the following +command once to pull from (and in the case of committers push to) the new +main branch: + + $ git branch --set-upstream-to <origin>/main + +Users of the `guix` CLI would be advised to run `guix pull` again to fetch +the latest commit from the main branch. Users of old installation media +(e.g. disk images for version 1.4.0) would continue to use the "master" branch +and the default channel URL of said installation media until they run +`guix pull`. A new release may mitigate this annoyance somewhat. + +The main branch may be renamed to any other name (including "master") by +repeating the steps laid out in the Repository Update Path and +Continuous Integration above, using <name> instead of "main". + +# Drawbacks and Open Issues + +There is an ongoing political debate as to whether the name “master”, +standing alone, should be considered harmful. Similar debates may +well surround other names given enough time and particular +circumstances. More generally, as language continues to evolve, +meanings that appear obvious today may no longer remain so in the +future. + +It is unclear, what effect, if any, the name of the default branch has +to contributor satisfaction. The choice of a name may well appear +similar to choosing the colour of a bikeshed. What constitutes a +meaningful branch name will inevitably be a matter of opinion. -- 2.48.1
info-guix@HIDDEN, guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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[85.127.114.32]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-38f259f7998sm15854314f8f.82.2025.02.18.14.06.25 for <guix-patches@HIDDEN> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 18 Feb 2025 14:06:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <b900cd17b88123af3ae95f4e7d572e540f86e879.camel@HIDDEN> Subject: [GCD] A better name for the default branch From: Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> To: guix-patches@HIDDEN Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 23:07:07 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.48.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::341; envelope-from=liliana.prikler@HIDDEN; helo=mail-wm1-x341.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Girls do their best now and are preparing. Please watch warmly until it is ready.
Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN>:guix-patches@HIDDEN.
Full text available.guix-patches@HIDDEN:bug#76407; Package guix-patches.
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