GNU bug report logs - #76870
31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can write confusing warnings

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can write
 confusing warnings
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2025 16:45:27 +0100

* Original Reproducer

Start an Emacs session A with emacs -Q, start an Emacs server in that
with M-x server-start RET.

Now start another Emacs session B with emacs -Q and evaluate the
following with C-j in its *scratch* buffer:

  (require 'server)
  server

  (unload-feature 'server)
  nil

The call to `unload-feature' results in warnings:

  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to start the Emacs server.
  There is an existing Emacs server, named "server"
  To start the server in this Emacs process, stop the existing server or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.


* Simplified Reproducer

Start an Emacs session A with emacs -Q, start an Emacs server in that
with M-x server-start RET.

Now start another Emacs session B with emacs -Q and evaluate the
following with C-j in its *scratch* buffer:

  (require 'server)
  server

  (server-start t)
  nil

You get the same warnings as shown in the original reproducer.


* Analysis

According to the doc string and the implementation of `server-start', a
call

  (server-start t)

with non-nil argument LEAVE-DEAD should just stop a running server.  And
this also works perfectly well when the server is running locally in the
same Emacs session where `(server-start t)' gets executed.

However, if there is an external Emacs server running in an Emacs
session A, then `(server-start t)' from another session B obviously
cannot just stop that server.  However, the warning issued in session B
as quoted above mentions that the server cannot be *started*.

1. So I think in case of non-nil LEAVE-DEAD and a running external
   server, a more appropriate warning would be:

     ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop an external Emacs server.
     There is an existing Emacs server, named "server"
     Stop it either in its Emacs session or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.

2. However, one could also argue that, if there is no local server
   running, a call to `(server-start t)' should be completely silent.
   That is at least what `(server-start t)' does if there is no server
   (neither local nor external) running at all.

3. Or at least it should be silent if called from a non-interactive
   context as shown in the original reproducer.

4. Or at the very least it should be silent if called from
   `server-unload-function'.

Not sure what the "ideal" fix would be here, but I would be happy to
provide patches for any of the scenarios above.

Thanks!


In GNU Emacs 31.0.50 (build 22, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
 3.24.38, cairo version 1.16.0) of 2025-03-05 built on sappc2
Repository revision: e978737f57ef8447bba5796dd945ac185fcadffa
Repository branch: master
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Message #8 received at 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#76870: 31.0.50;
 server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can write confusing warnings
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2025 18:04:04 +0200

> Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2025 16:45:27 +0100
> From:  Jens Schmidt via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
> 
> * Simplified Reproducer
> 
> Start an Emacs session A with emacs -Q, start an Emacs server in that
> with M-x server-start RET.
> 
> Now start another Emacs session B with emacs -Q and evaluate the
> following with C-j in its *scratch* buffer:
> 
>   (require 'server)
>   server
> 
>   (server-start t)
>   nil
> 
> You get the same warnings as shown in the original reproducer.

What happens in this recipe is expected, and is not a bug.

> However, if there is an external Emacs server running in an Emacs
> session A, then `(server-start t)' from another session B obviously
> cannot just stop that server.  However, the warning issued in session B
> as quoted above mentions that the server cannot be *started*.

Which is the truth: server-start attempted to stop the (non-existent)
local server process, which silently succeeded, and then attempted to
start a new server process, which fails with the above message.

> 1. So I think in case of non-nil LEAVE-DEAD and a running external
>    server, a more appropriate warning would be:
> 
>      ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop an external Emacs server.
>      There is an existing Emacs server, named "server"
>      Stop it either in its Emacs session or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.

This doesn't seem to be very different from the current message.  I
don't think the "in its Emacs session" part is significantly more
clear than "stop the existing server".

> 2. However, one could also argue that, if there is no local server
>    running, a call to `(server-start t)' should be completely silent.
>    That is at least what `(server-start t)' does if there is no server
>    (neither local nor external) running at all.
> 
> 3. Or at least it should be silent if called from a non-interactive
>    context as shown in the original reproducer.
> 
> 4. Or at the very least it should be silent if called from
>    `server-unload-function'.

The only bug here is 4.  Unloading the server feature should not cause
this warning.  All the rest is the intended behavior.

Message #11 received at 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#76870: 31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can
 write confusing warnings
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 18:27:50 +0100

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On 2025-03-08  17:04, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2025 16:45:27 +0100
>> From:  Jens Schmidt via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
>>
>> 1. So I think in case of non-nil LEAVE-DEAD and a running external
>>    server, a more appropriate warning would be:
>>
>>      ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop an external Emacs server.
>>      There is an existing Emacs server, named "server"
>>      Stop it either in its Emacs session or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.
> 
> This doesn't seem to be very different from the current message.

Except that I use the word "stop" instead of "start" in its first
line...

Do we agree that the following are all equivalent in effect

  M-: (server-start t) RET

  C-u M-x server-start RET

  C-- M-x server-mode RET

and all should *stop* the server without restarting it?

If yes, then I find it confusing to read that Emacs could not
*start* the server in the resulting warning.

>> 4. Or at the very least it should be silent if called from
>>    `server-unload-function'.
> 
> The only bug here is 4.  Unloading the server feature should not cause
> this warning.  All the rest is the intended behavior.

How about the attached patch?  (Which I would extend if we find
an agreement for case 1. as well.)

[0001-Silently-stop-the-server-if-unloading-its-library.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]

Message #14 received at 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#76870: 31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can
 write confusing warnings
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2025 12:39:46 +0200

> Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 18:27:50 +0100
> Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
> 
> >>      ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop an external Emacs server.
> >>      There is an existing Emacs server, named "server"
> >>      Stop it either in its Emacs session or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.
> > 
> > This doesn't seem to be very different from the current message.
> 
> Except that I use the word "stop" instead of "start" in its first
> line...

But that is confusing.  This message is for the case when the user
wants to start a server; the fact that the previous one should be
stopped is a side effect.  So talking about "stopping" will confuse,
IMO.

> Do we agree that the following are all equivalent in effect
> 
>   M-: (server-start t) RET
> 
>   C-u M-x server-start RET
> 
>   C-- M-x server-mode RET
> 
> and all should *stop* the server without restarting it?

Yes.

> If yes, then I find it confusing to read that Emacs could not
> *start* the server in the resulting warning.

So you want to have an alternative message about stopping only?  That
could be a good idea, yes.

Message #17 received at 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#76870: 31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can
 write confusing warnings
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2025 20:46:27 +0100

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On 2025-03-09  11:39, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> If yes, then I find it confusing to read that Emacs could not
>> *start* the server in the resulting warning.
> 
> So you want to have an alternative message about stopping only?  That
> could be a good idea, yes.

Exactly.  The attached patch a) stops the server in a silent way from
function `server-unload-function' and b) extends function `server-start'
to issue the following messages if an external server is running:

M-x server-start RET

  [message unchanged compared to master]

  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to start the Emacs server.
  There is an existing Emacs server, named "server"
  To start the server in this Emacs process, stop the existing server or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.

C-u M-x server-start RET

  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop an external Emacs server.
  There is an existing Emacs server, named "server"
  Stop it either in its Emacs session or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.

Please let me know what you think.

Thanks

[0001-Improve-message-handling-on-server-stop.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]

Message #20 received at 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#76870: 31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can
 write confusing warnings
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2025 21:54:56 +0200

> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2025 20:46:27 +0100
> Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
> 
> 
> C-u M-x server-start RET
> 
>   ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop an external Emacs server.

How do you know it is an "external" server process?  Stopping the
server could fail for a variety of reasons, and I don't think we
should confuse the user with our guesses, except if we present that as
a guess.  So something like

  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop the server.
  The existing Emacs server, called "server", could not be stopped.
  (Perhaps it was run from a different Emacs session?)
  You can try stopping the server forcibly by calling M-x server-force-delete.

Message #23 received at 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#76870: 31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can
 write confusing warnings
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2025 22:18:08 +0100

On 2025-03-09  20:54, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> How do you know it is an "external" server process?

Because 

a) the only condition handled by the condition-case
   in `server-start´ (with and without my patch) is
   named `server-running-external';

b) the only body form of the condition-case that
   could signal something seems to be the call to
   `server-stop´;

c) `server-stop' only seems to signal one "explicit"
   signal, namely `server-running-external';

d) and that only if there is actually an external
   server process running.

Wouldn't that justify to tailor the error messages also
only to the "cannot stop external server" case?

Message #26 received at 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#76870: 31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can
 write confusing warnings
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2025 13:50:36 +0200

> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2025 22:18:08 +0100
> Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
> 
> On 2025-03-09  20:54, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > How do you know it is an "external" server process?
> 
> Because 
> 
> a) the only condition handled by the condition-case
>    in `server-start´ (with and without my patch) is
>    named `server-running-external';
> 
> b) the only body form of the condition-case that
>    could signal something seems to be the call to
>    `server-stop´;
> 
> c) `server-stop' only seems to signal one "explicit"
>    signal, namely `server-running-external';
> 
> d) and that only if there is actually an external
>    server process running.
> 
> Wouldn't that justify to tailor the error messages also
> only to the "cannot stop external server" case?

Maybe, but I still prefer not to second guess what exactly happens,
but just tell what we know.

Would you like submitting a patch with that nit taken care of?

Message #29 received at 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#76870: 31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can
 write confusing warnings
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2025 19:25:47 +0100

On 2025-03-15  12:50, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> Would you like submitting a patch with that nit taken care of?

Yes, but please let me clarify another nit first.  With your
proposal we would have error messages like this [comments and
empty lines by me]:

- For the stop-then-restart case:

  [message unchanged comapared to master]

  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to start the Emacs server.

  [the next line is actually generated from the caught error as `(cadr err)':]
  There is an existing Emacs server, named "server"
  To start the server in this Emacs process, stop the existing server or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.

- For the stop-only case:

  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop the server.

  [but "your" next line I cannot generate as `(cadr err)':]
  The existing Emacs server, called "server", could not be stopped.
  (Perhaps it was run from a different Emacs session?)
  You can try stopping the server forcibly by calling M-x server-force-delete.

However, I like "your" second line better than the existing one, to be
honest, and it would also fit the existing stop-then-restart case well.

So would you mind if I also changed function `server-stop' to always
signal according to your proposal:

  (signal 'server-running-external
          (list (format "The existing Emacs server, called \"%s\", could not be stopped."
                        server-name))))

and then use the `(cadr err)' for both cases?

(Sorry for asking, but I still routinely fail to predict your
reaction on my proposals ... :-)

Thanks.

Message #32 received at 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#76870: 31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can
 write confusing warnings
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2025 09:34:15 +0200

> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2025 19:25:47 +0100
> Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
> 
> On 2025-03-15  12:50, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > Would you like submitting a patch with that nit taken care of?
> 
> Yes, but please let me clarify another nit first.  With your
> proposal we would have error messages like this [comments and
> empty lines by me]:
> 
> - For the stop-then-restart case:
> 
>   [message unchanged comapared to master]
> 
>   ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to start the Emacs server.
> 
>   [the next line is actually generated from the caught error as `(cadr err)':]
>   There is an existing Emacs server, named "server"
>   To start the server in this Emacs process, stop the existing server or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.
> 
> - For the stop-only case:
> 
>   ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop the server.
> 
>   [but "your" next line I cannot generate as `(cadr err)':]
>   The existing Emacs server, called "server", could not be stopped.
>   (Perhaps it was run from a different Emacs session?)
>   You can try stopping the server forcibly by calling M-x server-force-delete.
> 
> However, I like "your" second line better than the existing one, to be
> honest, and it would also fit the existing stop-then-restart case well.
> 
> So would you mind if I also changed function `server-stop' to always
> signal according to your proposal:
> 
>   (signal 'server-running-external
>           (list (format "The existing Emacs server, called \"%s\", could not be stopped."
>                         server-name))))
> 
> and then use the `(cadr err)' for both cases?

Yes, that'd be good.

Message #35 received at 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#76870: 31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can
 write confusing warnings
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2025 16:22:08 +0100

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On 2025-03-16  08:34, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> So would you mind if I also changed function `server-stop' to always
>> signal according to your proposal:
>>
>>   (signal 'server-running-external
>>           (list (format "The existing Emacs server, called \"%s\", could not be stopped."
>>                         server-name))))
>>
>> and then use the `(cadr err)' for both cases?
> 
> Yes, that'd be good.

I have attached two versions of the patch: The first

  0001-Improve-message-handling-on-server-stop.patch

with the messages we have agreed upon so far:

 Restart-then-stop:

  1  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to start the Emacs server.
  2  The existing Emacs server, called "server", could not be stopped.
  3  To start the server in this Emacs process, stop the existing server or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.

 Stop-only:

  4  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop the server.
  5  The existing Emacs server, called "server", could not be stopped.
  6  (Perhaps it was run from a different Emacs session?)
  7  You can try stopping the server forcibly by calling M-x server-force-delete.

The second one

  0001-Improve-message-handling-on-server-stop-consistent.patch

fixes (IMO) two minor inconsistencies ("server" vs. "Emacs server"
in line 4, "Emacs process" vs. "Emacs session" in line 3):

 Restart-then-stop:

   1  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to start the Emacs server.
   2  The existing Emacs server, called "server", could not be stopped.
   3  To start the server in this Emacs session, stop the existing server or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.

 Stop-only:

   4  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop the Emacs server.
   5  The existing Emacs server, called "server", could not be stopped.
   6  (Perhaps it was run from a different Emacs session?)
   7  You can try stopping the server forcibly by calling M-x server-force-delet

If one of these is OK for you (I'd prefer the second one), please
go ahead and install them, otherwise please let me know what still
needs fixing.

Thanks!

[0001-Improve-message-handling-on-server-stop.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]

[0001-Improve-message-handling-on-server-stop-consistent.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]

Message #40 received at 76870-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
Cc: 76870-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#76870: 31.0.50; server-start with non-nil arg LEAVE-DEAD can
 write confusing warnings
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2025 13:45:40 +0300

> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2025 16:22:08 +0100
> Cc: 76870 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Jens Schmidt <jschmidt4gnu <at> vodafonemail.de>
> 
> On 2025-03-16  08:34, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> So would you mind if I also changed function `server-stop' to always
> >> signal according to your proposal:
> >>
> >>   (signal 'server-running-external
> >>           (list (format "The existing Emacs server, called \"%s\", could not be stopped."
> >>                         server-name))))
> >>
> >> and then use the `(cadr err)' for both cases?
> > 
> > Yes, that'd be good.
> 
> I have attached two versions of the patch: The first
> 
>   0001-Improve-message-handling-on-server-stop.patch
> 
> with the messages we have agreed upon so far:
> 
>  Restart-then-stop:
> 
>   1  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to start the Emacs server.
>   2  The existing Emacs server, called "server", could not be stopped.
>   3  To start the server in this Emacs process, stop the existing server or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.
> 
>  Stop-only:
> 
>   4  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop the server.
>   5  The existing Emacs server, called "server", could not be stopped.
>   6  (Perhaps it was run from a different Emacs session?)
>   7  You can try stopping the server forcibly by calling M-x server-force-delete.
> 
> The second one
> 
>   0001-Improve-message-handling-on-server-stop-consistent.patch
> 
> fixes (IMO) two minor inconsistencies ("server" vs. "Emacs server"
> in line 4, "Emacs process" vs. "Emacs session" in line 3):
> 
>  Restart-then-stop:
> 
>    1  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to start the Emacs server.
>    2  The existing Emacs server, called "server", could not be stopped.
>    3  To start the server in this Emacs session, stop the existing server or call M-x server-force-delete to forcibly disconnect it.
> 
>  Stop-only:
> 
>    4  ⛔ Warning (server): Unable to stop the Emacs server.
>    5  The existing Emacs server, called "server", could not be stopped.
>    6  (Perhaps it was run from a different Emacs session?)
>    7  You can try stopping the server forcibly by calling M-x server-force-delet
> 
> If one of these is OK for you (I'd prefer the second one), please
> go ahead and install them, otherwise please let me know what still
> needs fixing.

Thanks, I installed the second one on the master branch.

Closing.

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