GNU bug report logs - #76998
Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new instance on login

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Package: guix; Severity: important; Reported by: dannym@HIDDEN; merged with #67863, #74912; dated Thu, 13 Mar 2025 19:11:02 UTC; Maintainer for guix is bug-guix@HIDDEN.

Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs@HIDDEN> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <871prjcn80.fsf@HIDDEN> (Danny Milosavljevic's
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Hi Danny,

We can do both:

  1. Have =E2=80=98shepherd=E2=80=99 stop itself if its socket is removed (=
for user
     shepherd), or recreate the socket (for PID 1).

  2. Change elogind to potentially allow user shepherd to outlive user
     sessions.

From the Shepherd=E2=80=99s viewpoint, #1 seems to be the safe thing to do.
From the Guix Home viewpoint, #2 would be nice.

How does that sound?

Thanks,
Ludo=E2=80=99.

Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#76998; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <871prjcn80.fsf@HIDDEN> (Danny Milosavljevic's
 message of "Tue, 17 Jun 2025 00:53:35 +0200")
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Hi Danny,

We can do both:

  1. Have =E2=80=98shepherd=E2=80=99 stop itself if its socket is removed (=
for user
     shepherd), or recreate the socket (for PID 1).

  2. Change elogind to potentially allow user shepherd to outlive user
     sessions.

From the Shepherd=E2=80=99s viewpoint, #1 seems to be the safe thing to do.
From the Guix Home viewpoint, #2 would be nice.

How does that sound?

Thanks,
Ludo=E2=80=99.

Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#76998; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <87qzzjddd5.fsf@HIDDEN> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s=22'?=
 =?utf-8?Q?s?= message of "Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:28:54 +0200")
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Hi Ludo,

First, I apologize for the tone back that day.  Sorry!

Hmm, I think using inotify is nice, but I don't think it's guaranteed to block the deletion of the socket (and thus the dismantling of the entire user scope) on a notification.  That doesn't have to be bad--but it means that whatever stopping of user services shepherd does are in parallel to (and possibly later than!) the cleanup elogind and/or systemd does.  elogind/systemd could totally (and probably do!) remove the floor from the underneath shepherd while it's still busy stopping services (and syncing user service stuff to disk etc).

I don't see obvious actionable downsides, but some potential for stuff going wrong.

Frankly, this is some really weird patchwork GNU/Linux is doing there.  There's a reason systemd is the service manager integrating almost everything slightly (in different cooperating processes, though) and it's not just because they are weird.

But I'd say for now we can totally do the inotify thing and handle problems as they arise.

That said, patching elogind (for example just the herd stop root thing) would be easy enough too--but wouldn't help on other distros.

Maybe we can future-proof shepherd a bit (if we don't already): If we wanted to change the mechanism later (to elogind, or to whatever) in the future it it could get hairy to decide who's responsible for stopping shepherd now.  So we should definitely figure out if we are already stopping shepherd--and not begin stopping shepherd again while we are busy stopping shepherd :)

As for gnupg, it's a lot easier to stop gnupg since it isn't responsible for stopping like half the machine in an orderly fashion, than it is shepherd. :)

Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#76998; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <87qzzjddd5.fsf@HIDDEN> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s=22'?=
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Hi Ludo,

First, I apologize for the tone back that day.  Sorry!

Hmm, I think using inotify is nice, but I don't think it's guaranteed to block the deletion of the socket (and thus the dismantling of the entire user scope) on a notification.  That doesn't have to be bad--but it means that whatever stopping of user services shepherd does are in parallel to (and possibly later than!) the cleanup elogind and/or systemd does.  elogind/systemd could totally (and probably do!) remove the floor from the underneath shepherd while it's still busy stopping services (and syncing user service stuff to disk etc).

I don't see obvious actionable downsides, but some potential for stuff going wrong.

Frankly, this is some really weird patchwork GNU/Linux is doing there.  There's a reason systemd is the service manager integrating almost everything slightly (in different cooperating processes, though) and it's not just because they are weird.

But I'd say for now we can totally do the inotify thing and handle problems as they arise.

That said, patching elogind (for example just the herd stop root thing) would be easy enough too--but wouldn't help on other distros.

Maybe we can future-proof shepherd a bit (if we don't already): If we wanted to change the mechanism later (to elogind, or to whatever) in the future it it could get hairy to decide who's responsible for stopping shepherd now.  So we should definitely figure out if we are already stopping shepherd--and not begin stopping shepherd again while we are busy stopping shepherd :)

As for gnupg, it's a lot easier to stop gnupg since it isn't responsible for stopping like half the machine in an orderly fashion, than it is shepherd. :)

Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#76998; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <87wm9dazse.fsf@HIDDEN> (Tomas Volf's message of "Sun, 15
 Jun 2025 15:40:33 +0200")
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Hi,

Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz> writes:

> Well, since you have mentioned the GnuPG as an example, we could just
> mirror what it does, and what I have suggested before.
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> $ mkdir /tmp/xxx && cd /tmp/xxx
> $ guix shell -u test -C findutils gnupg coreutils bash procps -- env HOME=
=3D/tmp/xxx GNUPGHOME=3D/tmp/xxx bash
> test@xx ~ [env]$ gpg-agent --daemon
> gpg-agent[2]: directory '/tmp/xxx/private-keys-v1.d' created
> gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 started
> test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
> /run/user
> /run/user/1000
> /run/user/1000/gnupg
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.ssh
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.browser
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.extra
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent
> test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
> USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
> test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
> test         3  0.0  0.0   5516  2400 ?        Ss   13:32   0:00 gpg-agen=
t --daemon
> test         5  0.0  0.0   5224  3852 ?        R+   13:32   0:00 ps aux
> test@xx ~ [env]$ rm -r /run/user/1000/gnupg
> gpg-agent[3]: socket file has been removed - shutting down
> gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 stopped
> test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
> /run/user
> /run/user/1000
> test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
> USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
> test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
> test         8  0.0  0.0   5224  3776 ?        R+   13:33   0:00 ps aux
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> So my suggestion is that when the socket is deleted, the shepherd
> process stops itself.

Brilliant!

The only downside is that it=E2=80=99ll be a bit of work (using inotify on =
Linux
and some other method elsewhere, presumably polling) but it definitely
sounds like a good plan.

I can look into it later it nobody beats me at it.

Ludo=E2=80=99.

Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#76998; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <87wm9dazse.fsf@HIDDEN> (Tomas Volf's message of "Sun, 15
 Jun 2025 15:40:33 +0200")
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Hi,

Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz> writes:

> Well, since you have mentioned the GnuPG as an example, we could just
> mirror what it does, and what I have suggested before.
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> $ mkdir /tmp/xxx && cd /tmp/xxx
> $ guix shell -u test -C findutils gnupg coreutils bash procps -- env HOME=
=3D/tmp/xxx GNUPGHOME=3D/tmp/xxx bash
> test@xx ~ [env]$ gpg-agent --daemon
> gpg-agent[2]: directory '/tmp/xxx/private-keys-v1.d' created
> gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 started
> test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
> /run/user
> /run/user/1000
> /run/user/1000/gnupg
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.ssh
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.browser
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.extra
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent
> test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
> USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
> test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
> test         3  0.0  0.0   5516  2400 ?        Ss   13:32   0:00 gpg-agen=
t --daemon
> test         5  0.0  0.0   5224  3852 ?        R+   13:32   0:00 ps aux
> test@xx ~ [env]$ rm -r /run/user/1000/gnupg
> gpg-agent[3]: socket file has been removed - shutting down
> gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 stopped
> test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
> /run/user
> /run/user/1000
> test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
> USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
> test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
> test         8  0.0  0.0   5224  3776 ?        R+   13:33   0:00 ps aux
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> So my suggestion is that when the socket is deleted, the shepherd
> process stops itself.

Brilliant!

The only downside is that it=E2=80=99ll be a bit of work (using inotify on =
Linux
and some other method elsewhere, presumably polling) but it definitely
sounds like a good plan.

I can look into it later it nobody beats me at it.

Ludo=E2=80=99.

Notification sent to Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <87wm9dazse.fsf@HIDDEN> (Tomas Volf's message of "Sun, 15
 Jun 2025 15:40:33 +0200")
References: <CAJqVjv_yNT19Svyd_xNVduNduuwZoWRrcGYRuQJ6=g4cmWDSaQ@HIDDEN>
 <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN> <871prm3tgi.fsf_-_@HIDDEN>
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Cc: 74912 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>, Daniel Littlewood <dan@HIDDEN>,
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Hi,

Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz> writes:

> Well, since you have mentioned the GnuPG as an example, we could just
> mirror what it does, and what I have suggested before.
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> $ mkdir /tmp/xxx && cd /tmp/xxx
> $ guix shell -u test -C findutils gnupg coreutils bash procps -- env HOME=
=3D/tmp/xxx GNUPGHOME=3D/tmp/xxx bash
> test@xx ~ [env]$ gpg-agent --daemon
> gpg-agent[2]: directory '/tmp/xxx/private-keys-v1.d' created
> gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 started
> test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
> /run/user
> /run/user/1000
> /run/user/1000/gnupg
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.ssh
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.browser
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.extra
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent
> test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
> USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
> test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
> test         3  0.0  0.0   5516  2400 ?        Ss   13:32   0:00 gpg-agen=
t --daemon
> test         5  0.0  0.0   5224  3852 ?        R+   13:32   0:00 ps aux
> test@xx ~ [env]$ rm -r /run/user/1000/gnupg
> gpg-agent[3]: socket file has been removed - shutting down
> gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 stopped
> test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
> /run/user
> /run/user/1000
> test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
> USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
> test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
> test         8  0.0  0.0   5224  3776 ?        R+   13:33   0:00 ps aux
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> So my suggestion is that when the socket is deleted, the shepherd
> process stops itself.

Brilliant!

The only downside is that it=E2=80=99ll be a bit of work (using inotify on =
Linux
and some other method elsewhere, presumably polling) but it definitely
sounds like a good plan.

I can look into it later it nobody beats me at it.

Ludo=E2=80=99.

Notification sent to xeji@HIDDEN:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <87wm9dazse.fsf@HIDDEN> (Tomas Volf's message of "Sun, 15
 Jun 2025 15:40:33 +0200")
References: <CAJqVjv_yNT19Svyd_xNVduNduuwZoWRrcGYRuQJ6=g4cmWDSaQ@HIDDEN>
 <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN> <871prm3tgi.fsf_-_@HIDDEN>
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Cc: 74912 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>, Daniel Littlewood <dan@HIDDEN>,
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Hi,

Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz> writes:

> Well, since you have mentioned the GnuPG as an example, we could just
> mirror what it does, and what I have suggested before.
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> $ mkdir /tmp/xxx && cd /tmp/xxx
> $ guix shell -u test -C findutils gnupg coreutils bash procps -- env HOME=
=3D/tmp/xxx GNUPGHOME=3D/tmp/xxx bash
> test@xx ~ [env]$ gpg-agent --daemon
> gpg-agent[2]: directory '/tmp/xxx/private-keys-v1.d' created
> gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 started
> test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
> /run/user
> /run/user/1000
> /run/user/1000/gnupg
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.ssh
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.browser
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.extra
> /run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent
> test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
> USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
> test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
> test         3  0.0  0.0   5516  2400 ?        Ss   13:32   0:00 gpg-agen=
t --daemon
> test         5  0.0  0.0   5224  3852 ?        R+   13:32   0:00 ps aux
> test@xx ~ [env]$ rm -r /run/user/1000/gnupg
> gpg-agent[3]: socket file has been removed - shutting down
> gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 stopped
> test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
> /run/user
> /run/user/1000
> test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
> USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
> test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
> test         8  0.0  0.0   5224  3776 ?        R+   13:33   0:00 ps aux
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> So my suggestion is that when the socket is deleted, the shepherd
> process stops itself.

Brilliant!

The only downside is that it=E2=80=99ll be a bit of work (using inotify on =
Linux
and some other method elsewhere, presumably polling) but it definitely
sounds like a good plan.

I can look into it later it nobody beats me at it.

Ludo=E2=80=99.

Notification sent to dannym@HIDDEN:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs@HIDDEN> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <871prm3tgi.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?=
 =?utf-8?Q?=22's?= message of "Sat, 14 Jun 2025 23:26:53 +0200")
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Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 15:40:33 +0200
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Hello :)

Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> writes:

>> In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix =
the problem:
>> It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running i=
n parallel.
>> It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.
>
> Yes.  It just occurred to me that we probably just got it wrong from the
> start: =E2=80=98XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=E2=80=99 (/run/user/$UID) is specified as=
 having limited
> lifetime.  Quoth
> <https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/>:
>
>   The lifetime of the directory MUST be bound to the user being logged
>   in.  It MUST be created when the user first logs in and if the user
>   fully logs out the directory MUST be removed.
>
> So it was probably a bad idea in the first place for shepherd to store
> its socket in /run/user/$UID (even more so that this directory doesn=E2=
=80=99t
> exist on systems without elogind/systemd).  GnuPG avoids
> $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for exactly this reason (there=E2=80=99s a comment in
> =E2=80=98homedir.c=E2=80=99).

Minor correction here.  Looking at the source code, GnuPG avoids the
XDG_RUNTIME_DIR environment variable, but it still tries to use the
/run/user/$UID directory, if it exists.

> So, what can we do?
>
> In the Shepherd 1.1, we could default to $XDG_STATE_HOME instead; we
> probably shouldn=E2=80=99t change that in 1.0.x.

Not sure here, the specification says the following about this location:

> The $XDG_STATE_HOME contains state data that *should persist between
> (application) restarts*, but that is not important or portable enough
> to the user that it should be stored in $XDG_DATA_HOME.

So... control socket does not seem to fit that description.

> Any other idea?

Well, since you have mentioned the GnuPG as an example, we could just
mirror what it does, and what I have suggested before.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
$ mkdir /tmp/xxx && cd /tmp/xxx
$ guix shell -u test -C findutils gnupg coreutils bash procps -- env HOME=
=3D/tmp/xxx GNUPGHOME=3D/tmp/xxx bash
test@xx ~ [env]$ gpg-agent --daemon
gpg-agent[2]: directory '/tmp/xxx/private-keys-v1.d' created
gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 started
test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
/run/user
/run/user/1000
/run/user/1000/gnupg
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.ssh
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.browser
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.extra
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent
test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
test         3  0.0  0.0   5516  2400 ?        Ss   13:32   0:00 gpg-agent =
--daemon
test         5  0.0  0.0   5224  3852 ?        R+   13:32   0:00 ps aux
test@xx ~ [env]$ rm -r /run/user/1000/gnupg
gpg-agent[3]: socket file has been removed - shutting down
gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 stopped
test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
/run/user
/run/user/1000
test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
test         8  0.0  0.0   5224  3776 ?        R+   13:33   0:00 ps aux
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

So my suggestion is that when the socket is deleted, the shepherd
process stops itself.

Tomas

--=20
There are only two hard things in Computer Science:
cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors.

Notification sent to Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <871prm3tgi.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?=
 =?utf-8?Q?=22's?= message of "Sat, 14 Jun 2025 23:26:53 +0200")
References: <CAJqVjv_yNT19Svyd_xNVduNduuwZoWRrcGYRuQJ6=g4cmWDSaQ@HIDDEN>
 <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN> <871prm3tgi.fsf_-_@HIDDEN>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 15:40:33 +0200
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Cc: 74912 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>, Daniel Littlewood <dan@HIDDEN>,
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Hello :)

Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> writes:

>> In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix =
the problem:
>> It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running i=
n parallel.
>> It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.
>
> Yes.  It just occurred to me that we probably just got it wrong from the
> start: =E2=80=98XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=E2=80=99 (/run/user/$UID) is specified as=
 having limited
> lifetime.  Quoth
> <https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/>:
>
>   The lifetime of the directory MUST be bound to the user being logged
>   in.  It MUST be created when the user first logs in and if the user
>   fully logs out the directory MUST be removed.
>
> So it was probably a bad idea in the first place for shepherd to store
> its socket in /run/user/$UID (even more so that this directory doesn=E2=
=80=99t
> exist on systems without elogind/systemd).  GnuPG avoids
> $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for exactly this reason (there=E2=80=99s a comment in
> =E2=80=98homedir.c=E2=80=99).

Minor correction here.  Looking at the source code, GnuPG avoids the
XDG_RUNTIME_DIR environment variable, but it still tries to use the
/run/user/$UID directory, if it exists.

> So, what can we do?
>
> In the Shepherd 1.1, we could default to $XDG_STATE_HOME instead; we
> probably shouldn=E2=80=99t change that in 1.0.x.

Not sure here, the specification says the following about this location:

> The $XDG_STATE_HOME contains state data that *should persist between
> (application) restarts*, but that is not important or portable enough
> to the user that it should be stored in $XDG_DATA_HOME.

So... control socket does not seem to fit that description.

> Any other idea?

Well, since you have mentioned the GnuPG as an example, we could just
mirror what it does, and what I have suggested before.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
$ mkdir /tmp/xxx && cd /tmp/xxx
$ guix shell -u test -C findutils gnupg coreutils bash procps -- env HOME=
=3D/tmp/xxx GNUPGHOME=3D/tmp/xxx bash
test@xx ~ [env]$ gpg-agent --daemon
gpg-agent[2]: directory '/tmp/xxx/private-keys-v1.d' created
gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 started
test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
/run/user
/run/user/1000
/run/user/1000/gnupg
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.ssh
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.browser
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.extra
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent
test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
test         3  0.0  0.0   5516  2400 ?        Ss   13:32   0:00 gpg-agent =
--daemon
test         5  0.0  0.0   5224  3852 ?        R+   13:32   0:00 ps aux
test@xx ~ [env]$ rm -r /run/user/1000/gnupg
gpg-agent[3]: socket file has been removed - shutting down
gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 stopped
test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
/run/user
/run/user/1000
test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
test         8  0.0  0.0   5224  3776 ?        R+   13:33   0:00 ps aux
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

So my suggestion is that when the socket is deleted, the shepherd
process stops itself.

Tomas

--=20
There are only two hard things in Computer Science:
cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors.

Notification sent to xeji@HIDDEN:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <871prm3tgi.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?=
 =?utf-8?Q?=22's?= message of "Sat, 14 Jun 2025 23:26:53 +0200")
References: <CAJqVjv_yNT19Svyd_xNVduNduuwZoWRrcGYRuQJ6=g4cmWDSaQ@HIDDEN>
 <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN> <871prm3tgi.fsf_-_@HIDDEN>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 15:40:33 +0200
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Cc: 74912 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>, Daniel Littlewood <dan@HIDDEN>,
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Hello :)

Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> writes:

>> In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix =
the problem:
>> It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running i=
n parallel.
>> It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.
>
> Yes.  It just occurred to me that we probably just got it wrong from the
> start: =E2=80=98XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=E2=80=99 (/run/user/$UID) is specified as=
 having limited
> lifetime.  Quoth
> <https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/>:
>
>   The lifetime of the directory MUST be bound to the user being logged
>   in.  It MUST be created when the user first logs in and if the user
>   fully logs out the directory MUST be removed.
>
> So it was probably a bad idea in the first place for shepherd to store
> its socket in /run/user/$UID (even more so that this directory doesn=E2=
=80=99t
> exist on systems without elogind/systemd).  GnuPG avoids
> $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for exactly this reason (there=E2=80=99s a comment in
> =E2=80=98homedir.c=E2=80=99).

Minor correction here.  Looking at the source code, GnuPG avoids the
XDG_RUNTIME_DIR environment variable, but it still tries to use the
/run/user/$UID directory, if it exists.

> So, what can we do?
>
> In the Shepherd 1.1, we could default to $XDG_STATE_HOME instead; we
> probably shouldn=E2=80=99t change that in 1.0.x.

Not sure here, the specification says the following about this location:

> The $XDG_STATE_HOME contains state data that *should persist between
> (application) restarts*, but that is not important or portable enough
> to the user that it should be stored in $XDG_DATA_HOME.

So... control socket does not seem to fit that description.

> Any other idea?

Well, since you have mentioned the GnuPG as an example, we could just
mirror what it does, and what I have suggested before.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
$ mkdir /tmp/xxx && cd /tmp/xxx
$ guix shell -u test -C findutils gnupg coreutils bash procps -- env HOME=
=3D/tmp/xxx GNUPGHOME=3D/tmp/xxx bash
test@xx ~ [env]$ gpg-agent --daemon
gpg-agent[2]: directory '/tmp/xxx/private-keys-v1.d' created
gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 started
test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
/run/user
/run/user/1000
/run/user/1000/gnupg
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.ssh
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.browser
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.extra
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent
test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
test         3  0.0  0.0   5516  2400 ?        Ss   13:32   0:00 gpg-agent =
--daemon
test         5  0.0  0.0   5224  3852 ?        R+   13:32   0:00 ps aux
test@xx ~ [env]$ rm -r /run/user/1000/gnupg
gpg-agent[3]: socket file has been removed - shutting down
gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 stopped
test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
/run/user
/run/user/1000
test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
test         8  0.0  0.0   5224  3776 ?        R+   13:33   0:00 ps aux
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

So my suggestion is that when the socket is deleted, the shepherd
process stops itself.

Tomas

--=20
There are only two hard things in Computer Science:
cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors.

Notification sent to dannym@HIDDEN:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <871prm3tgi.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?=
 =?utf-8?Q?=22's?= message of "Sat, 14 Jun 2025 23:26:53 +0200")
References: <CAJqVjv_yNT19Svyd_xNVduNduuwZoWRrcGYRuQJ6=g4cmWDSaQ@HIDDEN>
 <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN> <871prm3tgi.fsf_-_@HIDDEN>
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 15:40:33 +0200
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Cc: 74912 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>, Daniel Littlewood <dan@HIDDEN>,
 Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
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Hello :)

Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> writes:

>> In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix =
the problem:
>> It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running i=
n parallel.
>> It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.
>
> Yes.  It just occurred to me that we probably just got it wrong from the
> start: =E2=80=98XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=E2=80=99 (/run/user/$UID) is specified as=
 having limited
> lifetime.  Quoth
> <https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/>:
>
>   The lifetime of the directory MUST be bound to the user being logged
>   in.  It MUST be created when the user first logs in and if the user
>   fully logs out the directory MUST be removed.
>
> So it was probably a bad idea in the first place for shepherd to store
> its socket in /run/user/$UID (even more so that this directory doesn=E2=
=80=99t
> exist on systems without elogind/systemd).  GnuPG avoids
> $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for exactly this reason (there=E2=80=99s a comment in
> =E2=80=98homedir.c=E2=80=99).

Minor correction here.  Looking at the source code, GnuPG avoids the
XDG_RUNTIME_DIR environment variable, but it still tries to use the
/run/user/$UID directory, if it exists.

> So, what can we do?
>
> In the Shepherd 1.1, we could default to $XDG_STATE_HOME instead; we
> probably shouldn=E2=80=99t change that in 1.0.x.

Not sure here, the specification says the following about this location:

> The $XDG_STATE_HOME contains state data that *should persist between
> (application) restarts*, but that is not important or portable enough
> to the user that it should be stored in $XDG_DATA_HOME.

So... control socket does not seem to fit that description.

> Any other idea?

Well, since you have mentioned the GnuPG as an example, we could just
mirror what it does, and what I have suggested before.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
$ mkdir /tmp/xxx && cd /tmp/xxx
$ guix shell -u test -C findutils gnupg coreutils bash procps -- env HOME=
=3D/tmp/xxx GNUPGHOME=3D/tmp/xxx bash
test@xx ~ [env]$ gpg-agent --daemon
gpg-agent[2]: directory '/tmp/xxx/private-keys-v1.d' created
gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 started
test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
/run/user
/run/user/1000
/run/user/1000/gnupg
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.ssh
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.browser
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent.extra
/run/user/1000/gnupg/d.j1yiifhhjrep9xunazyff54c/S.gpg-agent
test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
test         3  0.0  0.0   5516  2400 ?        Ss   13:32   0:00 gpg-agent =
--daemon
test         5  0.0  0.0   5224  3852 ?        R+   13:32   0:00 ps aux
test@xx ~ [env]$ rm -r /run/user/1000/gnupg
gpg-agent[3]: socket file has been removed - shutting down
gpg-agent[3]: gpg-agent (GnuPG) 2.4.7 stopped
test@xx ~ [env]$ find /run/user
/run/user
/run/user/1000
test@xx ~ [env]$ ps aux
USER       PID %CPU %MEM    VSZ   RSS TTY      STAT START   TIME COMMAND
test         1  0.0  0.0   5136  4068 ?        S    13:32   0:00 bash
test         8  0.0  0.0   5224  3776 ?        R+   13:33   0:00 ps aux
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

So my suggestion is that when the socket is deleted, the shepherd
process stops itself.

Tomas

--=20
There are only two hard things in Computer Science:
cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors.

Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#76998; Package guix. Full text available.

Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs@HIDDEN> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

Received: (at 76998-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Jun 2025 21:27:18 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 14 17:27:18 2025
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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN> (Danny Milosavljevic's
 message of "Sun, 18 May 2025 14:30:49 +0200")
References: <CAJqVjv_yNT19Svyd_xNVduNduuwZoWRrcGYRuQJ6=g4cmWDSaQ@HIDDEN>
 <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2025 23:26:53 +0200
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Cc: 74912 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>,
 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>,
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Hi Danny,

Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN> writes:

> It's good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in
> shepherd.  It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without
> explanation, then now it's back again (now in a very convoluted but
> safer way).  This shouldn't have been removed in the first place.
> It's EXTREMELY dangerous to have multiple parallel shepherds for the
> same user (automated backup service destroying backups etc).  Please,
> let's not remove it ever again.

If you=E2=80=99re referring to 649a98a6697d358a53eccc45b387e5130278b5ec (8 =
years
ago), I believe it wasn=E2=80=99t doing just that due to lingering.

(Aside: I think the tone of this paragraph is uncalled for.)

> In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix t=
he problem:
> It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running in=
 parallel.
> It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.

Yes.  It just occurred to me that we probably just got it wrong from the
start: =E2=80=98XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=E2=80=99 (/run/user/$UID) is specified as h=
aving limited
lifetime.  Quoth
<https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/>:

  The lifetime of the directory MUST be bound to the user being logged
  in.  It MUST be created when the user first logs in and if the user
  fully logs out the directory MUST be removed.

So it was probably a bad idea in the first place for shepherd to store
its socket in /run/user/$UID (even more so that this directory doesn=E2=80=
=99t
exist on systems without elogind/systemd).  GnuPG avoids
$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for exactly this reason (there=E2=80=99s a comment in
=E2=80=98homedir.c=E2=80=99).

So, what can we do?

In the Shepherd 1.1, we could default to $XDG_STATE_HOME instead; we
probably shouldn=E2=80=99t change that in 1.0.x.

Any other idea?

Thanks,
Ludo=E2=80=99.

Notification sent to Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN> (Danny Milosavljevic's
 message of "Sun, 18 May 2025 14:30:49 +0200")
References: <CAJqVjv_yNT19Svyd_xNVduNduuwZoWRrcGYRuQJ6=g4cmWDSaQ@HIDDEN>
 <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2025 23:26:53 +0200
Message-ID: <871prm3tgi.fsf_-_@HIDDEN>
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Cc: 74912 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Tomas Volf <~@wolfsden.cz>,
 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>,
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Hi Danny,

Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN> writes:

> It's good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in
> shepherd.  It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without
> explanation, then now it's back again (now in a very convoluted but
> safer way).  This shouldn't have been removed in the first place.
> It's EXTREMELY dangerous to have multiple parallel shepherds for the
> same user (automated backup service destroying backups etc).  Please,
> let's not remove it ever again.

If you=E2=80=99re referring to 649a98a6697d358a53eccc45b387e5130278b5ec (8 =
years
ago), I believe it wasn=E2=80=99t doing just that due to lingering.

(Aside: I think the tone of this paragraph is uncalled for.)

> In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix t=
he problem:
> It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running in=
 parallel.
> It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.

Yes.  It just occurred to me that we probably just got it wrong from the
start: =E2=80=98XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=E2=80=99 (/run/user/$UID) is specified as h=
aving limited
lifetime.  Quoth
<https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/>:

  The lifetime of the directory MUST be bound to the user being logged
  in.  It MUST be created when the user first logs in and if the user
  fully logs out the directory MUST be removed.

So it was probably a bad idea in the first place for shepherd to store
its socket in /run/user/$UID (even more so that this directory doesn=E2=80=
=99t
exist on systems without elogind/systemd).  GnuPG avoids
$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for exactly this reason (there=E2=80=99s a comment in
=E2=80=98homedir.c=E2=80=99).

So, what can we do?

In the Shepherd 1.1, we could default to $XDG_STATE_HOME instead; we
probably shouldn=E2=80=99t change that in 1.0.x.

Any other idea?

Thanks,
Ludo=E2=80=99.

Notification sent to xeji@HIDDEN:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN> (Danny Milosavljevic's
 message of "Sun, 18 May 2025 14:30:49 +0200")
References: <CAJqVjv_yNT19Svyd_xNVduNduuwZoWRrcGYRuQJ6=g4cmWDSaQ@HIDDEN>
 <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2025 23:26:53 +0200
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Hi Danny,

Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN> writes:

> It's good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in
> shepherd.  It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without
> explanation, then now it's back again (now in a very convoluted but
> safer way).  This shouldn't have been removed in the first place.
> It's EXTREMELY dangerous to have multiple parallel shepherds for the
> same user (automated backup service destroying backups etc).  Please,
> let's not remove it ever again.

If you=E2=80=99re referring to 649a98a6697d358a53eccc45b387e5130278b5ec (8 =
years
ago), I believe it wasn=E2=80=99t doing just that due to lingering.

(Aside: I think the tone of this paragraph is uncalled for.)

> In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix t=
he problem:
> It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running in=
 parallel.
> It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.

Yes.  It just occurred to me that we probably just got it wrong from the
start: =E2=80=98XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=E2=80=99 (/run/user/$UID) is specified as h=
aving limited
lifetime.  Quoth
<https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/>:

  The lifetime of the directory MUST be bound to the user being logged
  in.  It MUST be created when the user first logs in and if the user
  fully logs out the directory MUST be removed.

So it was probably a bad idea in the first place for shepherd to store
its socket in /run/user/$UID (even more so that this directory doesn=E2=80=
=99t
exist on systems without elogind/systemd).  GnuPG avoids
$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for exactly this reason (there=E2=80=99s a comment in
=E2=80=98homedir.c=E2=80=99).

So, what can we do?

In the Shepherd 1.1, we could default to $XDG_STATE_HOME instead; we
probably shouldn=E2=80=99t change that in 1.0.x.

Any other idea?

Thanks,
Ludo=E2=80=99.

Notification sent to dannym@HIDDEN:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <87bjrqt81y.fsf@HIDDEN> (Danny Milosavljevic's
 message of "Sun, 18 May 2025 14:30:49 +0200")
References: <CAJqVjv_yNT19Svyd_xNVduNduuwZoWRrcGYRuQJ6=g4cmWDSaQ@HIDDEN>
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Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2025 23:26:53 +0200
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Hi Danny,

Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN> writes:

> It's good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in
> shepherd.  It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without
> explanation, then now it's back again (now in a very convoluted but
> safer way).  This shouldn't have been removed in the first place.
> It's EXTREMELY dangerous to have multiple parallel shepherds for the
> same user (automated backup service destroying backups etc).  Please,
> let's not remove it ever again.

If you=E2=80=99re referring to 649a98a6697d358a53eccc45b387e5130278b5ec (8 =
years
ago), I believe it wasn=E2=80=99t doing just that due to lingering.

(Aside: I think the tone of this paragraph is uncalled for.)

> In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix t=
he problem:
> It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running in=
 parallel.
> It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.

Yes.  It just occurred to me that we probably just got it wrong from the
start: =E2=80=98XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=E2=80=99 (/run/user/$UID) is specified as h=
aving limited
lifetime.  Quoth
<https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/>:

  The lifetime of the directory MUST be bound to the user being logged
  in.  It MUST be created when the user first logs in and if the user
  fully logs out the directory MUST be removed.

So it was probably a bad idea in the first place for shepherd to store
its socket in /run/user/$UID (even more so that this directory doesn=E2=80=
=99t
exist on systems without elogind/systemd).  GnuPG avoids
$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for exactly this reason (there=E2=80=99s a comment in
=E2=80=98homedir.c=E2=80=99).

So, what can we do?

In the Shepherd 1.1, we could default to $XDG_STATE_HOME instead; we
probably shouldn=E2=80=99t change that in 1.0.x.

Any other idea?

Thanks,
Ludo=E2=80=99.

Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#76998; Package guix. Full text available.

Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs@HIDDEN> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#74912: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout,
 starts new instance on login
User-Agent: mu4e 1.12.9; emacs 29.4
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 14:30:49 +0200
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 Content preview:  Hi Ludo, That is not a fix. It's a workaround for now. It's
 good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepherd.
 It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, then now
 it's back again (now in a very convoluted but [...] 
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 Content preview:  Hi Ludo, That is not a fix. It's a workaround for now. It's
    good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepherd.
   It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, then now
    it's back again (now in a very convoluted but [...] 
 
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                             manager

--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ludo,

That is not a fix.  It's a workaround for now.

It's good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepher=
d.  It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, the=
n now it's back again (now in a very convoluted but safer way).  This shoul=
dn't have been removed in the first place.  It's EXTREMELY dangerous to hav=
e multiple parallel shepherds for the same user (automated backup service d=
estroying backups etc).  Please, let's not remove it ever again.

In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix the=
 problem:
It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running in p=
arallel.
It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.

Why close this bug report before elogind is patched and before ~/.bash_logo=
ut is generated in guix home?  That makes no sense.

Also, I don't understand why this is so broken for so long.  Isn't Guix use=
d in HPC?
Doesn't HPC need support for multiple sessions for the same user on day one?

My untested elogind patch that invokes shepherd root stop is attached.  Rea=
ding the elogind source code, especially what they patched out and what the=
y added themselves, makes me despair.  Why is it so terrible?  That all use=
d to be fine! :P

Even my patch is not great.  A service manager's job is to manage services.=
  PID 1 is the main service manager.  It should manage services.  One of th=
ose services should be the user's shepherd, which should be managed by PID =
1 shepherd and not weirdly attached to an already-running session (WTF!) of=
 the user by this:

~$ cat ~/.profile
HOME_ENVIRONMENT=3D$HOME/.guix-home
. $HOME_ENVIRONMENT/setup-environment
$HOME_ENVIRONMENT/on-first-login
unset HOME_ENVIRONMENT

In my opinion, no one but the service manager should manage services.  Does=
 ~/.profile look like a service manager?  No :P

I understand that we want to support this on non-guix-system stuff.  But th=
e default should be a systemd user service to run the user shepherd.  If th=
e user absolutely wants to do a workaround like ~/.profile above, fine, the=
y can.  But let's not do that by default.

The problems with my elogind patch are the following:
- What if "herd stop root -s ..." hangs?  Then elogind hangs forever?  No o=
ne can log in or out anymore?=C2=A0 That's not okay.  Therefore, I don't wa=
it.  Now user processes can have the floor upon they are walking removed on=
 user stop, while they still need it :P
- When can /run/user/1000 be deleted?  There's a weird GC mechanism in elog=
ind for that, and my patch says it can be deleted before waiting on the res=
ult of herd stop (see above why).  If I DID wait on the result of herd stop=
, I could wait indefinitely--which is not okay.  I think elogind uses signa=
lfd, so I can't waitpid in a random spot either, or wait until waitpid retu=
rned.  I think the user shepherd knows when to delete /run/user/1000--and n=
o one else.  But if user shepherd crashes, it won't delete /run/user/1000 a=
nd we want it to be able to start again even when /run/user/1000 is still t=
here.  Hence complicated shepherd fix in 1.0.4 is useful.
- There is tool_fork_pid and sleep_fork_pid in elogind which is not a queue=
.  And, again, that is trying to be a service manager.  What if those scrip=
ts hang?  What if they DON'T hang?  Similar questions as before.  Separate =
the concerns already :P

Personally, I'd also like something that, if all sessions of user x are clo=
sed, it kills all remaining processes of that effective user id.  elogind h=
as a setting KillUserProcesses that--despite the name--kills (WHICH!?) proc=
esses when a SESSION (of 42 sessions of that user :P) is closed.  Who wants=
 THAT?  And even if someone does: how would THAT be implemented?

elogind is like containers never happened.  It's so weird.

I think to fix this problem for good, first there needs to be a system diag=
ram created on how this is supposed to work.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=ELOGIND.patch
Content-Description: elogind patch for shepherd

License: elogind's license
Author: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Date: 2025-05-18

diff -ru orig/18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c 18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c
--- orig/18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c	2025-05-10 13:54:28.999814332 +0200
+++ 18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c	2025-05-10 15:48:33.872775240 +0200
@@ -2,6 +2,7 @@
 
 #include <errno.h>
 #include <unistd.h>
+#include <spawn.h>
 
 #include "alloc-util.h"
 //#include "bus-common-errors.h"
@@ -17,6 +18,7 @@
 #include "format-util.h"
 #include "fs-util.h"
 #include "hashmap.h"
+#include "string-util.h"
 // #include "label-util.h"
 #include "limits-util.h"
 #include "logind-dbus.h"
@@ -506,24 +508,45 @@
         return 0;
 }
 
-#if 0 /// elogind does not support user services and systemd units
 static void user_stop_service(User *u, bool force) {
-        _cleanup_(sd_bus_error_free) sd_bus_error error = SD_BUS_ERROR_NULL;
-        int r;
-
-        assert(u);
-        assert(u->service);
-
-        /* The reverse of user_start_service(). Note that we only stop user@HIDDEN here, and let StopWhenUnneeded=
-         * deal with the slice and the user-runtime-dir@.service instance. */
-
-        u->service_job = mfree(u->service_job);
-
-        r = manager_stop_unit(u->manager, u->service, force ? "replace" : "fail", &error, &u->service_job);
-        if (r < 0)
-                log_warning_errno(r, "Failed to stop user service '%s', ignoring: %s", u->service, bus_error_message(&error, r));
+	assert(u);
+	if (u->runtime_path != NULL) {
+		pid_t pid;
+		/* TODO: maybe just /run/booted-system/profile/bin/pkill -u u->user_record->uid ;
+		TODO: maybe just loginctl kill-user x; maybe that's us.
+		That eventually calls user_kill, which elogind patched to not kill the user
+		service or, really, do anything useful.
+		u->slice would be the unit name if it worked.
+		Note: u->user_record->kill_processes is for sessions, not users.
+		See also user_unit_active. */
+		const char *executable = "/run/booted-system/profile/bin/herd";
+		char* socket_path_arg = strjoina(u->runtime_path, "/shepherd/socket");
+		char *argv[] = {
+			(char *) executable,
+			"stop",
+			"root",
+			"-s",
+			socket_path_arg,
+			NULL,
+		};
+		int spawn_status = posix_spawn(&pid, executable, NULL, NULL, argv, environ);
+		if (spawn_status != 0) {
+			log_error_errno(spawn_status, "Failed to invoke %s: %m", executable);
+		} else {
+			if (u->manager != NULL) {
+				/* TODO: Do we overwrite someone here? */
+				u->manager->tool_fork_pid = pid;
+				/* elogind_sigchld_handler unsets it.  Not sure how we'd notice.
+				Note: elogind patched out the service_job handling which means
+				that user_may_gc will return true as soon as u->stopping == true
+				instead of checking whether the user service is still running. */
+			} else {
+				/* ??? */
+			}
+		}
+	}
+	user_add_to_gc_queue(u);
 }
-#endif // 0
 
 int user_stop(User *u, bool force) {
         int r = 0;
@@ -552,11 +575,7 @@
                         r = k;
         }
 
-#if 0 /// elogind does not support service or slice jobs...
         user_stop_service(u, force);
-#else // 0
-        user_add_to_gc_queue(u);
-#endif // 0
 
         u->stopping = true;
 

--=-=-=--

Notification sent to Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#74912: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout,
 starts new instance on login
User-Agent: mu4e 1.12.9; emacs 29.4
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 14:30:49 +0200
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 Content preview:  Hi Ludo, That is not a fix. It's a workaround for now. It's
 good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepherd.
 It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, then now
 it's back again (now in a very convoluted but [...] 
 Content analysis details:   (3.6 points, 10.0 required)
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 Content preview:  Hi Ludo, That is not a fix. It's a workaround for now. It's
    good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepherd.
   It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, then now
    it's back again (now in a very convoluted but [...] 
 
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ludo,

That is not a fix.  It's a workaround for now.

It's good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepher=
d.  It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, the=
n now it's back again (now in a very convoluted but safer way).  This shoul=
dn't have been removed in the first place.  It's EXTREMELY dangerous to hav=
e multiple parallel shepherds for the same user (automated backup service d=
estroying backups etc).  Please, let's not remove it ever again.

In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix the=
 problem:
It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running in p=
arallel.
It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.

Why close this bug report before elogind is patched and before ~/.bash_logo=
ut is generated in guix home?  That makes no sense.

Also, I don't understand why this is so broken for so long.  Isn't Guix use=
d in HPC?
Doesn't HPC need support for multiple sessions for the same user on day one?

My untested elogind patch that invokes shepherd root stop is attached.  Rea=
ding the elogind source code, especially what they patched out and what the=
y added themselves, makes me despair.  Why is it so terrible?  That all use=
d to be fine! :P

Even my patch is not great.  A service manager's job is to manage services.=
  PID 1 is the main service manager.  It should manage services.  One of th=
ose services should be the user's shepherd, which should be managed by PID =
1 shepherd and not weirdly attached to an already-running session (WTF!) of=
 the user by this:

~$ cat ~/.profile
HOME_ENVIRONMENT=3D$HOME/.guix-home
. $HOME_ENVIRONMENT/setup-environment
$HOME_ENVIRONMENT/on-first-login
unset HOME_ENVIRONMENT

In my opinion, no one but the service manager should manage services.  Does=
 ~/.profile look like a service manager?  No :P

I understand that we want to support this on non-guix-system stuff.  But th=
e default should be a systemd user service to run the user shepherd.  If th=
e user absolutely wants to do a workaround like ~/.profile above, fine, the=
y can.  But let's not do that by default.

The problems with my elogind patch are the following:
- What if "herd stop root -s ..." hangs?  Then elogind hangs forever?  No o=
ne can log in or out anymore?=C2=A0 That's not okay.  Therefore, I don't wa=
it.  Now user processes can have the floor upon they are walking removed on=
 user stop, while they still need it :P
- When can /run/user/1000 be deleted?  There's a weird GC mechanism in elog=
ind for that, and my patch says it can be deleted before waiting on the res=
ult of herd stop (see above why).  If I DID wait on the result of herd stop=
, I could wait indefinitely--which is not okay.  I think elogind uses signa=
lfd, so I can't waitpid in a random spot either, or wait until waitpid retu=
rned.  I think the user shepherd knows when to delete /run/user/1000--and n=
o one else.  But if user shepherd crashes, it won't delete /run/user/1000 a=
nd we want it to be able to start again even when /run/user/1000 is still t=
here.  Hence complicated shepherd fix in 1.0.4 is useful.
- There is tool_fork_pid and sleep_fork_pid in elogind which is not a queue=
.  And, again, that is trying to be a service manager.  What if those scrip=
ts hang?  What if they DON'T hang?  Similar questions as before.  Separate =
the concerns already :P

Personally, I'd also like something that, if all sessions of user x are clo=
sed, it kills all remaining processes of that effective user id.  elogind h=
as a setting KillUserProcesses that--despite the name--kills (WHICH!?) proc=
esses when a SESSION (of 42 sessions of that user :P) is closed.  Who wants=
 THAT?  And even if someone does: how would THAT be implemented?

elogind is like containers never happened.  It's so weird.

I think to fix this problem for good, first there needs to be a system diag=
ram created on how this is supposed to work.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=ELOGIND.patch
Content-Description: elogind patch for shepherd

License: elogind's license
Author: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Date: 2025-05-18

diff -ru orig/18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c 18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c
--- orig/18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c	2025-05-10 13:54:28.999814332 +0200
+++ 18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c	2025-05-10 15:48:33.872775240 +0200
@@ -2,6 +2,7 @@
 
 #include <errno.h>
 #include <unistd.h>
+#include <spawn.h>
 
 #include "alloc-util.h"
 //#include "bus-common-errors.h"
@@ -17,6 +18,7 @@
 #include "format-util.h"
 #include "fs-util.h"
 #include "hashmap.h"
+#include "string-util.h"
 // #include "label-util.h"
 #include "limits-util.h"
 #include "logind-dbus.h"
@@ -506,24 +508,45 @@
         return 0;
 }
 
-#if 0 /// elogind does not support user services and systemd units
 static void user_stop_service(User *u, bool force) {
-        _cleanup_(sd_bus_error_free) sd_bus_error error = SD_BUS_ERROR_NULL;
-        int r;
-
-        assert(u);
-        assert(u->service);
-
-        /* The reverse of user_start_service(). Note that we only stop user@HIDDEN here, and let StopWhenUnneeded=
-         * deal with the slice and the user-runtime-dir@.service instance. */
-
-        u->service_job = mfree(u->service_job);
-
-        r = manager_stop_unit(u->manager, u->service, force ? "replace" : "fail", &error, &u->service_job);
-        if (r < 0)
-                log_warning_errno(r, "Failed to stop user service '%s', ignoring: %s", u->service, bus_error_message(&error, r));
+	assert(u);
+	if (u->runtime_path != NULL) {
+		pid_t pid;
+		/* TODO: maybe just /run/booted-system/profile/bin/pkill -u u->user_record->uid ;
+		TODO: maybe just loginctl kill-user x; maybe that's us.
+		That eventually calls user_kill, which elogind patched to not kill the user
+		service or, really, do anything useful.
+		u->slice would be the unit name if it worked.
+		Note: u->user_record->kill_processes is for sessions, not users.
+		See also user_unit_active. */
+		const char *executable = "/run/booted-system/profile/bin/herd";
+		char* socket_path_arg = strjoina(u->runtime_path, "/shepherd/socket");
+		char *argv[] = {
+			(char *) executable,
+			"stop",
+			"root",
+			"-s",
+			socket_path_arg,
+			NULL,
+		};
+		int spawn_status = posix_spawn(&pid, executable, NULL, NULL, argv, environ);
+		if (spawn_status != 0) {
+			log_error_errno(spawn_status, "Failed to invoke %s: %m", executable);
+		} else {
+			if (u->manager != NULL) {
+				/* TODO: Do we overwrite someone here? */
+				u->manager->tool_fork_pid = pid;
+				/* elogind_sigchld_handler unsets it.  Not sure how we'd notice.
+				Note: elogind patched out the service_job handling which means
+				that user_may_gc will return true as soon as u->stopping == true
+				instead of checking whether the user service is still running. */
+			} else {
+				/* ??? */
+			}
+		}
+	}
+	user_add_to_gc_queue(u);
 }
-#endif // 0
 
 int user_stop(User *u, bool force) {
         int r = 0;
@@ -552,11 +575,7 @@
                         r = k;
         }
 
-#if 0 /// elogind does not support service or slice jobs...
         user_stop_service(u, force);
-#else // 0
-        user_add_to_gc_queue(u);
-#endif // 0
 
         u->stopping = true;
 

--=-=-=--

Notification sent to xeji@HIDDEN:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#74912: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout,
 starts new instance on login
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 Content preview:  Hi Ludo, That is not a fix. It's a workaround for now. It's
 good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepherd.
 It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, then now
 it's back again (now in a very convoluted but [...] 
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 Content preview:  Hi Ludo, That is not a fix. It's a workaround for now. It's
    good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepherd.
   It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, then now
    it's back again (now in a very convoluted but [...] 
 
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ludo,

That is not a fix.  It's a workaround for now.

It's good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepher=
d.  It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, the=
n now it's back again (now in a very convoluted but safer way).  This shoul=
dn't have been removed in the first place.  It's EXTREMELY dangerous to hav=
e multiple parallel shepherds for the same user (automated backup service d=
estroying backups etc).  Please, let's not remove it ever again.

In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix the=
 problem:
It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running in p=
arallel.
It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.

Why close this bug report before elogind is patched and before ~/.bash_logo=
ut is generated in guix home?  That makes no sense.

Also, I don't understand why this is so broken for so long.  Isn't Guix use=
d in HPC?
Doesn't HPC need support for multiple sessions for the same user on day one?

My untested elogind patch that invokes shepherd root stop is attached.  Rea=
ding the elogind source code, especially what they patched out and what the=
y added themselves, makes me despair.  Why is it so terrible?  That all use=
d to be fine! :P

Even my patch is not great.  A service manager's job is to manage services.=
  PID 1 is the main service manager.  It should manage services.  One of th=
ose services should be the user's shepherd, which should be managed by PID =
1 shepherd and not weirdly attached to an already-running session (WTF!) of=
 the user by this:

~$ cat ~/.profile
HOME_ENVIRONMENT=3D$HOME/.guix-home
. $HOME_ENVIRONMENT/setup-environment
$HOME_ENVIRONMENT/on-first-login
unset HOME_ENVIRONMENT

In my opinion, no one but the service manager should manage services.  Does=
 ~/.profile look like a service manager?  No :P

I understand that we want to support this on non-guix-system stuff.  But th=
e default should be a systemd user service to run the user shepherd.  If th=
e user absolutely wants to do a workaround like ~/.profile above, fine, the=
y can.  But let's not do that by default.

The problems with my elogind patch are the following:
- What if "herd stop root -s ..." hangs?  Then elogind hangs forever?  No o=
ne can log in or out anymore?=C2=A0 That's not okay.  Therefore, I don't wa=
it.  Now user processes can have the floor upon they are walking removed on=
 user stop, while they still need it :P
- When can /run/user/1000 be deleted?  There's a weird GC mechanism in elog=
ind for that, and my patch says it can be deleted before waiting on the res=
ult of herd stop (see above why).  If I DID wait on the result of herd stop=
, I could wait indefinitely--which is not okay.  I think elogind uses signa=
lfd, so I can't waitpid in a random spot either, or wait until waitpid retu=
rned.  I think the user shepherd knows when to delete /run/user/1000--and n=
o one else.  But if user shepherd crashes, it won't delete /run/user/1000 a=
nd we want it to be able to start again even when /run/user/1000 is still t=
here.  Hence complicated shepherd fix in 1.0.4 is useful.
- There is tool_fork_pid and sleep_fork_pid in elogind which is not a queue=
.  And, again, that is trying to be a service manager.  What if those scrip=
ts hang?  What if they DON'T hang?  Similar questions as before.  Separate =
the concerns already :P

Personally, I'd also like something that, if all sessions of user x are clo=
sed, it kills all remaining processes of that effective user id.  elogind h=
as a setting KillUserProcesses that--despite the name--kills (WHICH!?) proc=
esses when a SESSION (of 42 sessions of that user :P) is closed.  Who wants=
 THAT?  And even if someone does: how would THAT be implemented?

elogind is like containers never happened.  It's so weird.

I think to fix this problem for good, first there needs to be a system diag=
ram created on how this is supposed to work.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=ELOGIND.patch
Content-Description: elogind patch for shepherd

License: elogind's license
Author: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Date: 2025-05-18

diff -ru orig/18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c 18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c
--- orig/18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c	2025-05-10 13:54:28.999814332 +0200
+++ 18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c	2025-05-10 15:48:33.872775240 +0200
@@ -2,6 +2,7 @@
 
 #include <errno.h>
 #include <unistd.h>
+#include <spawn.h>
 
 #include "alloc-util.h"
 //#include "bus-common-errors.h"
@@ -17,6 +18,7 @@
 #include "format-util.h"
 #include "fs-util.h"
 #include "hashmap.h"
+#include "string-util.h"
 // #include "label-util.h"
 #include "limits-util.h"
 #include "logind-dbus.h"
@@ -506,24 +508,45 @@
         return 0;
 }
 
-#if 0 /// elogind does not support user services and systemd units
 static void user_stop_service(User *u, bool force) {
-        _cleanup_(sd_bus_error_free) sd_bus_error error = SD_BUS_ERROR_NULL;
-        int r;
-
-        assert(u);
-        assert(u->service);
-
-        /* The reverse of user_start_service(). Note that we only stop user@HIDDEN here, and let StopWhenUnneeded=
-         * deal with the slice and the user-runtime-dir@.service instance. */
-
-        u->service_job = mfree(u->service_job);
-
-        r = manager_stop_unit(u->manager, u->service, force ? "replace" : "fail", &error, &u->service_job);
-        if (r < 0)
-                log_warning_errno(r, "Failed to stop user service '%s', ignoring: %s", u->service, bus_error_message(&error, r));
+	assert(u);
+	if (u->runtime_path != NULL) {
+		pid_t pid;
+		/* TODO: maybe just /run/booted-system/profile/bin/pkill -u u->user_record->uid ;
+		TODO: maybe just loginctl kill-user x; maybe that's us.
+		That eventually calls user_kill, which elogind patched to not kill the user
+		service or, really, do anything useful.
+		u->slice would be the unit name if it worked.
+		Note: u->user_record->kill_processes is for sessions, not users.
+		See also user_unit_active. */
+		const char *executable = "/run/booted-system/profile/bin/herd";
+		char* socket_path_arg = strjoina(u->runtime_path, "/shepherd/socket");
+		char *argv[] = {
+			(char *) executable,
+			"stop",
+			"root",
+			"-s",
+			socket_path_arg,
+			NULL,
+		};
+		int spawn_status = posix_spawn(&pid, executable, NULL, NULL, argv, environ);
+		if (spawn_status != 0) {
+			log_error_errno(spawn_status, "Failed to invoke %s: %m", executable);
+		} else {
+			if (u->manager != NULL) {
+				/* TODO: Do we overwrite someone here? */
+				u->manager->tool_fork_pid = pid;
+				/* elogind_sigchld_handler unsets it.  Not sure how we'd notice.
+				Note: elogind patched out the service_job handling which means
+				that user_may_gc will return true as soon as u->stopping == true
+				instead of checking whether the user service is still running. */
+			} else {
+				/* ??? */
+			}
+		}
+	}
+	user_add_to_gc_queue(u);
 }
-#endif // 0
 
 int user_stop(User *u, bool force) {
         int r = 0;
@@ -552,11 +575,7 @@
                         r = k;
         }
 
-#if 0 /// elogind does not support service or slice jobs...
         user_stop_service(u, force);
-#else // 0
-        user_add_to_gc_queue(u);
-#endif // 0
 
         u->stopping = true;
 

--=-=-=--

Notification sent to dannym@HIDDEN:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#74912: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout,
 starts new instance on login
User-Agent: mu4e 1.12.9; emacs 29.4
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 14:30:49 +0200
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 Content preview:  Hi Ludo, That is not a fix. It's a workaround for now. It's
 good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepherd.
 It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, then now
 it's back again (now in a very convoluted but [...] 
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 Content preview:  Hi Ludo, That is not a fix. It's a workaround for now. It's
    good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepherd.
   It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, then now
    it's back again (now in a very convoluted but [...] 
 
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                             manager

--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ludo,

That is not a fix.  It's a workaround for now.

It's good that the "is a shepherd already running" check is back in shepher=
d.  It was in shepherd years ago, then got removed without explanation, the=
n now it's back again (now in a very convoluted but safer way).  This shoul=
dn't have been removed in the first place.  It's EXTREMELY dangerous to hav=
e multiple parallel shepherds for the same user (automated backup service d=
estroying backups etc).  Please, let's not remove it ever again.

In any case, what shepherd 1.0.4 does is stop the bleeding, but not fix the=
 problem:
It prevents two (or 100) user shepherds for the same user from running in p=
arallel.
It does not stop shepherd when a user closed all their sessions.

Why close this bug report before elogind is patched and before ~/.bash_logo=
ut is generated in guix home?  That makes no sense.

Also, I don't understand why this is so broken for so long.  Isn't Guix use=
d in HPC?
Doesn't HPC need support for multiple sessions for the same user on day one?

My untested elogind patch that invokes shepherd root stop is attached.  Rea=
ding the elogind source code, especially what they patched out and what the=
y added themselves, makes me despair.  Why is it so terrible?  That all use=
d to be fine! :P

Even my patch is not great.  A service manager's job is to manage services.=
  PID 1 is the main service manager.  It should manage services.  One of th=
ose services should be the user's shepherd, which should be managed by PID =
1 shepherd and not weirdly attached to an already-running session (WTF!) of=
 the user by this:

~$ cat ~/.profile
HOME_ENVIRONMENT=3D$HOME/.guix-home
. $HOME_ENVIRONMENT/setup-environment
$HOME_ENVIRONMENT/on-first-login
unset HOME_ENVIRONMENT

In my opinion, no one but the service manager should manage services.  Does=
 ~/.profile look like a service manager?  No :P

I understand that we want to support this on non-guix-system stuff.  But th=
e default should be a systemd user service to run the user shepherd.  If th=
e user absolutely wants to do a workaround like ~/.profile above, fine, the=
y can.  But let's not do that by default.

The problems with my elogind patch are the following:
- What if "herd stop root -s ..." hangs?  Then elogind hangs forever?  No o=
ne can log in or out anymore?=C2=A0 That's not okay.  Therefore, I don't wa=
it.  Now user processes can have the floor upon they are walking removed on=
 user stop, while they still need it :P
- When can /run/user/1000 be deleted?  There's a weird GC mechanism in elog=
ind for that, and my patch says it can be deleted before waiting on the res=
ult of herd stop (see above why).  If I DID wait on the result of herd stop=
, I could wait indefinitely--which is not okay.  I think elogind uses signa=
lfd, so I can't waitpid in a random spot either, or wait until waitpid retu=
rned.  I think the user shepherd knows when to delete /run/user/1000--and n=
o one else.  But if user shepherd crashes, it won't delete /run/user/1000 a=
nd we want it to be able to start again even when /run/user/1000 is still t=
here.  Hence complicated shepherd fix in 1.0.4 is useful.
- There is tool_fork_pid and sleep_fork_pid in elogind which is not a queue=
.  And, again, that is trying to be a service manager.  What if those scrip=
ts hang?  What if they DON'T hang?  Similar questions as before.  Separate =
the concerns already :P

Personally, I'd also like something that, if all sessions of user x are clo=
sed, it kills all remaining processes of that effective user id.  elogind h=
as a setting KillUserProcesses that--despite the name--kills (WHICH!?) proc=
esses when a SESSION (of 42 sessions of that user :P) is closed.  Who wants=
 THAT?  And even if someone does: how would THAT be implemented?

elogind is like containers never happened.  It's so weird.

I think to fix this problem for good, first there needs to be a system diag=
ram created on how this is supposed to work.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=ELOGIND.patch
Content-Description: elogind patch for shepherd

License: elogind's license
Author: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Date: 2025-05-18

diff -ru orig/18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c 18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c
--- orig/18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c	2025-05-10 13:54:28.999814332 +0200
+++ 18rk21n7l3yniy1rvlcdnwgnnvafivf0-elogind-255.17-checkout/src/login/logind-user.c	2025-05-10 15:48:33.872775240 +0200
@@ -2,6 +2,7 @@
 
 #include <errno.h>
 #include <unistd.h>
+#include <spawn.h>
 
 #include "alloc-util.h"
 //#include "bus-common-errors.h"
@@ -17,6 +18,7 @@
 #include "format-util.h"
 #include "fs-util.h"
 #include "hashmap.h"
+#include "string-util.h"
 // #include "label-util.h"
 #include "limits-util.h"
 #include "logind-dbus.h"
@@ -506,24 +508,45 @@
         return 0;
 }
 
-#if 0 /// elogind does not support user services and systemd units
 static void user_stop_service(User *u, bool force) {
-        _cleanup_(sd_bus_error_free) sd_bus_error error = SD_BUS_ERROR_NULL;
-        int r;
-
-        assert(u);
-        assert(u->service);
-
-        /* The reverse of user_start_service(). Note that we only stop user@HIDDEN here, and let StopWhenUnneeded=
-         * deal with the slice and the user-runtime-dir@.service instance. */
-
-        u->service_job = mfree(u->service_job);
-
-        r = manager_stop_unit(u->manager, u->service, force ? "replace" : "fail", &error, &u->service_job);
-        if (r < 0)
-                log_warning_errno(r, "Failed to stop user service '%s', ignoring: %s", u->service, bus_error_message(&error, r));
+	assert(u);
+	if (u->runtime_path != NULL) {
+		pid_t pid;
+		/* TODO: maybe just /run/booted-system/profile/bin/pkill -u u->user_record->uid ;
+		TODO: maybe just loginctl kill-user x; maybe that's us.
+		That eventually calls user_kill, which elogind patched to not kill the user
+		service or, really, do anything useful.
+		u->slice would be the unit name if it worked.
+		Note: u->user_record->kill_processes is for sessions, not users.
+		See also user_unit_active. */
+		const char *executable = "/run/booted-system/profile/bin/herd";
+		char* socket_path_arg = strjoina(u->runtime_path, "/shepherd/socket");
+		char *argv[] = {
+			(char *) executable,
+			"stop",
+			"root",
+			"-s",
+			socket_path_arg,
+			NULL,
+		};
+		int spawn_status = posix_spawn(&pid, executable, NULL, NULL, argv, environ);
+		if (spawn_status != 0) {
+			log_error_errno(spawn_status, "Failed to invoke %s: %m", executable);
+		} else {
+			if (u->manager != NULL) {
+				/* TODO: Do we overwrite someone here? */
+				u->manager->tool_fork_pid = pid;
+				/* elogind_sigchld_handler unsets it.  Not sure how we'd notice.
+				Note: elogind patched out the service_job handling which means
+				that user_may_gc will return true as soon as u->stopping == true
+				instead of checking whether the user service is still running. */
+			} else {
+				/* ??? */
+			}
+		}
+	}
+	user_add_to_gc_queue(u);
 }
-#endif // 0
 
 int user_stop(User *u, bool force) {
         int r = 0;
@@ -552,11 +575,7 @@
                         r = k;
         }
 
-#if 0 /// elogind does not support service or slice jobs...
         user_stop_service(u, force);
-#else // 0
-        user_add_to_gc_queue(u);
-#endif // 0
 
         u->stopping = true;
 

--=-=-=--

Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#76998; Package guix. Full text available.

Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs@HIDDEN> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <874iyrkvx7.fsf@HIDDEN> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s=22'?=
 =?utf-8?Q?s?= message of "Mon, 14 Apr 2025 10:08:04 +0200")
References: <871pukdlyo.fsf@HIDDEN> <874iyrkvx7.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 18:06:11 +0200
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Hi,

Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> writes:

> So shepherd will now refuse to start when it determines that an instance
> is already listening on its socket:
>
>   https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/shepherd.git/commit/?id=3D787d5a33aea=
061b5052faa0863c96be722440ce3

This commit is in 1.0.4.  Closing!

Ludo=E2=80=99.

Notification sent to Jake <jforst.mailman@HIDDEN>:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <874iyrkvx7.fsf@HIDDEN> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s=22'?=
 =?utf-8?Q?s?= message of "Mon, 14 Apr 2025 10:08:04 +0200")
References: <871pukdlyo.fsf@HIDDEN> <874iyrkvx7.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 18:06:11 +0200
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Hi,

Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> writes:

> So shepherd will now refuse to start when it determines that an instance
> is already listening on its socket:
>
>   https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/shepherd.git/commit/?id=3D787d5a33aea=
061b5052faa0863c96be722440ce3

This commit is in 1.0.4.  Closing!

Ludo=E2=80=99.

Notification sent to xeji@HIDDEN:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 76998-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>
To: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#76998: Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new
 instance on login
In-Reply-To: <874iyrkvx7.fsf@HIDDEN> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s=22'?=
 =?utf-8?Q?s?= message of "Mon, 14 Apr 2025 10:08:04 +0200")
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Hi,

Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> writes:

> So shepherd will now refuse to start when it determines that an instance
> is already listening on its socket:
>
>   https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/shepherd.git/commit/?id=3D787d5a33aea=
061b5052faa0863c96be722440ce3

This commit is in 1.0.4.  Closing!

Ludo=E2=80=99.

Notification sent to dannym@HIDDEN:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.

Reply sent to Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Changed bug title to 'Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new instance on login' from 'user shepherd stays around with some zombies' Request was from Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

Merged 67863 74912 76998. Request was from Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

Severity set to 'important' from 'normal' Request was from Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

Message received at 76998 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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Subject: Re: bug#76998: user shepherd stays around with some zombies
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--000000000000bac56706304120fc
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Is this the same as
https://issues.guix.gnu.org/74912
?

Jake

On Fri, 14 Mar 2025 at 5:41=E2=80=AFam, <dannym@HIDDEN> wrot=
e:

> Steps to reproduce:
>
> 1. Log into the console using your regular user
> 2. Log into GUI using your regular user
> 3. Log out of GUI
> 4. Switch to logged-in console
> 5. Run "px --tree" there
> 6. Observe the following:
>
> shepherd(1)
>    accounts-daemon(1110)
>    avahi-daemon:(2443)
>      avahi-daemon:(2446)
>    bluetoothd(1026)
>    colord(25587)
>    cupsd(2440)
>    dbus-daemon(769)
>    dnsmasq(1845)
>      dnsmasq(1846)
>    earlyoom(744)
>    elogind(1024)
>    gdm(1038)
>    guix-daemon(740)
>    libvirtd(1023)
>    login(26536)
>      -bash(6739)
>    mcron(747)
>    mingetty... (5=C3=97)
>    ModemManager(1276)
>    NetworkManager(1256)
>    nginx:(797)
>      nginx:(798)
>    nscd(2177)
>    polkitd(1231)
>    postgres(852)
>      postgres:... (6=C3=97)
>    rasdaemon(796)
>    rpc.idmapd(2447)
>    rpc.mountd(2501)
>    rpc.statd(2444)
>    rpcbind(2441)
>    shepherd(6395) <--- also dannym
>      [dbus-daemon](6397)
>      [ssh-agent](6444)
>      [xdg-permission-](6411)
>      wireplumber(6399)
>    shepherd(26114) <--- dannym
>      dbus-daemon(6881)
>      pipewire(6882)
>      pipewire-pulse(6883)
>      ssh-agent(6880)
>      wireplumber(6888)
>      xdg-permission-store(7259)
>    udevd(330)
>    upowerd(1025)
>    virtlogd(742)
>    wpa_supplicant(1045)
>
> Those "[...]" with brackets mean that these processes were not reaped
> (so is defunct).
>
> What the hell?
>
> $ guix describe
> Generation 194  Mar 13 2025 19:11:33    (current)
>    guix 678b3dd
>      repository URL: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git
>      branch: master
>      commit: 678b3dddfe442e643fe5cff7730d4f9690c3e2c2
>
>
>
>

--000000000000bac56706304120fc
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Is this the same as=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><a href=
=3D"https://issues.guix.gnu.org/74912">https://issues.guix.gnu.org/74912</a=
><br>?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Jake</div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quot=
e_container" dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 14 =
Mar 2025 at 5:41=E2=80=AFam, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dannym@friendly-machines=
.com">dannym@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;b=
order-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"=
>Steps to reproduce:<br>
<br>
1. Log into the console using your regular user<br>
2. Log into GUI using your regular user<br>
3. Log out of GUI<br>
4. Switch to logged-in console<br>
5. Run &quot;px --tree&quot; there<br>
6. Observe the following:<br>
<br>
shepherd(1)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0accounts-daemon(1110)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0avahi-daemon:(2443)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0avahi-daemon:(2446)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0bluetoothd(1026)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0colord(25587)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0cupsd(2440)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0dbus-daemon(769)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0dnsmasq(1845)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dnsmasq(1846)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0earlyoom(744)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0elogind(1024)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0gdm(1038)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0guix-daemon(740)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0libvirtd(1023)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0login(26536)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-bash(6739)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mcron(747)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mingetty... (5=C3=97)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ModemManager(1276)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0NetworkManager(1256)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nginx:(797)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0nginx:(798)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nscd(2177)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0polkitd(1231)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0postgres(852)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0postgres:... (6=C3=97)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0rasdaemon(796)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0rpc.idmapd(2447)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0rpc.mountd(2501)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0rpc.statd(2444)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0rpcbind(2441)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0shepherd(6395) &lt;--- also dannym<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[dbus-daemon](6397)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[ssh-agent](6444)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[xdg-permission-](6411)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wireplumber(6399)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0shepherd(26114) &lt;--- dannym<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dbus-daemon(6881)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pipewire(6882)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pipewire-pulse(6883)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ssh-agent(6880)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wireplumber(6888)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0xdg-permission-store(7259)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0udevd(330)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0upowerd(1025)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtlogd(742)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0wpa_supplicant(1045)<br>
<br>
Those &quot;[...]&quot; with brackets mean that these processes were not re=
aped <br>
(so is defunct).<br>
<br>
What the hell?<br>
<br>
$ guix describe<br>
Generation 194=C2=A0 Mar 13 2025 19:11:33=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (current)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0guix 678b3dd<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0repository URL: <a href=3D"https://git.savannah.gnu.org=
/git/guix.git" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://git.savannah.gn=
u.org/git/guix.git</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0branch: master<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0commit: 678b3dddfe442e643fe5cff7730d4f9690c3e2c2<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000bac56706304120fc--

Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#76998; Package guix. Full text available.

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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 20:10:36 +0100
From: dannym@HIDDEN
To: Bug Guix <bug-guix@HIDDEN>
Subject: user shepherd stays around with some zombies
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Steps to reproduce:

1. Log into the console using your regular user
2. Log into GUI using your regular user
3. Log out of GUI
4. Switch to logged-in console
5. Run "px --tree" there
6. Observe the following:

shepherd(1)
   accounts-daemon(1110)
   avahi-daemon:(2443)
     avahi-daemon:(2446)
   bluetoothd(1026)
   colord(25587)
   cupsd(2440)
   dbus-daemon(769)
   dnsmasq(1845)
     dnsmasq(1846)
   earlyoom(744)
   elogind(1024)
   gdm(1038)
   guix-daemon(740)
   libvirtd(1023)
   login(26536)
     -bash(6739)
   mcron(747)
   mingetty... (5×)
   ModemManager(1276)
   NetworkManager(1256)
   nginx:(797)
     nginx:(798)
   nscd(2177)
   polkitd(1231)
   postgres(852)
     postgres:... (6×)
   rasdaemon(796)
   rpc.idmapd(2447)
   rpc.mountd(2501)
   rpc.statd(2444)
   rpcbind(2441)
   shepherd(6395) <--- also dannym
     [dbus-daemon](6397)
     [ssh-agent](6444)
     [xdg-permission-](6411)
     wireplumber(6399)
   shepherd(26114) <--- dannym
     dbus-daemon(6881)
     pipewire(6882)
     pipewire-pulse(6883)
     ssh-agent(6880)
     wireplumber(6888)
     xdg-permission-store(7259)
   udevd(330)
   upowerd(1025)
   virtlogd(742)
   wpa_supplicant(1045)

Those "[...]" with brackets mean that these processes were not reaped 
(so is defunct).

What the hell?

$ guix describe
Generation 194	Mar 13 2025 19:11:33	(current)
   guix 678b3dd
     repository URL: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git
     branch: master
     commit: 678b3dddfe442e643fe5cff7730d4f9690c3e2c2

Acknowledgement sent to dannym@HIDDEN:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-guix@HIDDEN. Full text available.

Report forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#76998; Package guix. Full text available.

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Last modified: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:00:02 UTC

GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.

GNU bug report logs - #76998 Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new instance on login

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GNU bug report logs - #76998
Guix Home leaves user shepherd on logout, starts new instance on login