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Subject: bug#77122: [PATCH] project--find-in-directory resolves symlinks
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This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share resolved
directory locations.  This has bothered me for a while, so here we go.

-Stephane

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospac=
e">This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share resolved=
 directory locations.=C2=A0 This has bothered me for a while, so here we go=
.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">-Stepha=
ne</div></div>

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From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#77122: Acknowledgement ([PATCH] project--find-in-directory
 resolves symlinks)
Message-ID: <handler.77122.B.174240334420551.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
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Subject: bug#77122: [PATCH] project--find-in-directory resolves symlinks
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On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 12:57=E2=80=AFPM Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> w=
rote:

> This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share resolved
> directory locations.  This has bothered me for a while, so here we go.
>

FWIW, I consider this a bug and would like to see this in Emacs 30.2.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 12:57=E2=80=AFPM Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
hipmints@HIDDEN">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:monospace"=
>This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share resolved d=
irectory locations.=C2=A0 This has bothered me for a while, so here we go.<=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:monospace">FWIW, I consider this a bug and would like to se=
e this in Emacs 30.2.</div></div></div>

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Subject: bug#77122: [PATCH] project--find-in-directory resolves symlinks
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 12:55:09 -0400
> 
> This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share resolved directory locations.  This has
> bothered me for a while, so here we go.
> 
> From 074905ff365c6bcd7cbcf72e0158ae9db0908a20 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: shipmints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 12:50:28 -0400
> Subject: [PATCH] project--find-in-directory resolves symlinks (bug#xxx)
> 
> This avoids duplicate projects that share resolved directory locations.
> 
> * lisp/progmodes/project.el (project--find-in-directory): Invoke
> 'project-find-functions' on 'file-truename' resolved dir.
> ---
>  lisp/progmodes/project.el | 4 ++++
>  1 file changed, 4 insertions(+)
> 
> diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/project.el b/lisp/progmodes/project.el
> index 4eac541167a..45f5328f6be 100644
> --- a/lisp/progmodes/project.el
> +++ b/lisp/progmodes/project.el
> @@ -251,6 +251,10 @@ project-current
>      pr))
>  
>  (defun project--find-in-directory (dir)
> +  "Invoke `project-find-functions' for DIR.
> +DIR is resolved to its true name, 'chasing' symbolic links, to avoid
> +duplicate projects that share resolved directory locations."
> +  (setq dir (file-truename dir))

That's not necessarily what the user will want, since it changes the
name of the file (and potentially its directory as well).  If the file
or the directory have some "magical" name that matters, this will
backfire.

I think it is better to detect the fact that two directories point to
the same place via symlinks (e.g., with file-equal-p), and avoid
duplication in that case, but without actually substituting the file's
name by its truename.

But of course the final word is for Dmitry.

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> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 13:04:32 -0400
> 
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 12:57 PM Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> wrote:
> 
>  This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share resolved directory locations.  This has
>  bothered me for a while, so here we go.
> 
> FWIW, I consider this a bug and would like to see this in Emacs 30.2.

Let's first discuss how to fix the original problem.  If it turns out
that the best fix is what you proposed (and I explained why I'm not
sure it is), then it's unlikely to be in Emacs 30.2 because it changes
behavior as a side effect of the fix, and that change could cause more
serious problems.

Thanks.

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On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 1:10=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 12:55:09 -0400
> >
> > This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share resolve=
d
> directory locations.  This has
> > bothered me for a while, so here we go.
> >
> > From 074905ff365c6bcd7cbcf72e0158ae9db0908a20 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> > From: shipmints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 12:50:28 -0400
> > Subject: [PATCH] project--find-in-directory resolves symlinks (bug#xxx)
> >
> > This avoids duplicate projects that share resolved directory locations.
> >
> > * lisp/progmodes/project.el (project--find-in-directory): Invoke
> > 'project-find-functions' on 'file-truename' resolved dir.
> > ---
> >  lisp/progmodes/project.el | 4 ++++
> >  1 file changed, 4 insertions(+)
> >
> > diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/project.el b/lisp/progmodes/project.el
> > index 4eac541167a..45f5328f6be 100644
> > --- a/lisp/progmodes/project.el
> > +++ b/lisp/progmodes/project.el
> > @@ -251,6 +251,10 @@ project-current
> >      pr))
> >
> >  (defun project--find-in-directory (dir)
> > +  "Invoke `project-find-functions' for DIR.
> > +DIR is resolved to its true name, 'chasing' symbolic links, to avoid
> > +duplicate projects that share resolved directory locations."
> > +  (setq dir (file-truename dir))
>
> That's not necessarily what the user will want, since it changes the
> name of the file (and potentially its directory as well).  If the file
> or the directory have some "magical" name that matters, this will
> backfire.
>
> I think it is better to detect the fact that two directories point to
> the same place via symlinks (e.g., with file-equal-p), and avoid
> duplication in that case, but without actually substituting the file's
> name by its truename.
>
> But of course the final word is for Dmitry.
>

I expect that (project-current) whether invoked when default-directory
points to a symlinked project or not, returns the same thing.  It's an
opaque value to users?

--0000000000009d0eea0630b5379f
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 1:10=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN"=
 target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 12:55:09 -0400<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share resolv=
ed directory locations.=C2=A0 This has<br>
&gt; bothered me for a while, so here we go.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; From 074905ff365c6bcd7cbcf72e0158ae9db0908a20 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001=
<br>
&gt; From: shipmints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN" target=3D"_=
blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 12:50:28 -0400<br>
&gt; Subject: [PATCH] project--find-in-directory resolves symlinks (bug#xxx=
)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This avoids duplicate projects that share resolved directory locations=
.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; * lisp/progmodes/project.el (project--find-in-directory): Invoke<br>
&gt; &#39;project-find-functions&#39; on &#39;file-truename&#39; resolved d=
ir.<br>
&gt; ---<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 lisp/progmodes/project.el | 4 ++++<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/project.el b/lisp/progmodes/project.el<br>
&gt; index 4eac541167a..45f5328f6be 100644<br>
&gt; --- a/lisp/progmodes/project.el<br>
&gt; +++ b/lisp/progmodes/project.el<br>
&gt; @@ -251,6 +251,10 @@ project-current<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pr))<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 (defun project--find-in-directory (dir)<br>
&gt; +=C2=A0 &quot;Invoke `project-find-functions&#39; for DIR.<br>
&gt; +DIR is resolved to its true name, &#39;chasing&#39; symbolic links, t=
o avoid<br>
&gt; +duplicate projects that share resolved directory locations.&quot;<br>
&gt; +=C2=A0 (setq dir (file-truename dir))<br>
<br>
That&#39;s not necessarily what the user will want, since it changes the<br=
>
name of the file (and potentially its directory as well).=C2=A0 If the file=
<br>
or the directory have some &quot;magical&quot; name that matters, this will=
<br>
backfire.<br>
<br>
I think it is better to detect the fact that two directories point to<br>
the same place via symlinks (e.g., with file-equal-p), and avoid<br>
duplication in that case, but without actually substituting the file&#39;s<=
br>
name by its truename.<br>
<br>
But of course the final word is for Dmitry.<br></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">I expect that =
(project-current) whether invoked when default-directory points to a symlin=
ked project or not, returns the same thing.=C2=A0 It&#39;s an opaque value =
to users?</div></div></div>

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Hi!

On 19/03/2025 18:55, Ship Mints wrote:
> This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share resolved 
> directory locations.  This has bothered me for a while, so here we go.

Could you describe the reasons why your setup is the way it is?

Personally, I've never used symlinks at this level, and if I did, I'm 
not sure I would see the problem with project-root returning different 
strings for those.

What exactly is the problem? Having the "same" project multiple times in 
project history?

I can name a couple of (probably minor) downsides:

* The project detection would be slower (more disk I/O).
* project-root would more often return a string that is not a parent 
directory of default-directory. Some code out there probably 
soft-depends on that.

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--00000000000047875a0630c44f71
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On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 10:15=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:

> Hi!
>
> On 19/03/2025 18:55, Ship Mints wrote:
> > This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share resolve=
d
> > directory locations.  This has bothered me for a while, so here we go.
>
> Could you describe the reasons why your setup is the way it is?
>

Many of us here do the same out of habit and convenience to normalize our
own directory trees as an overlay on the varied-structured work we need to
deal with.

Personally, I've never used symlinks at this level, and if I did, I'm
> not sure I would see the problem with project-root returning different
> strings for those.
>

> What exactly is the problem? Having the "same" project multiple times in
> project history?
>

If one loads two files from the same project but one via the symlinked
path, and another via the natural path (often, an underlying tool will
choose natural while Emacs chooses default-directory), and one has tools
that compare project-likeness between/among buffers, they report different
projects.  That's misleading and annoying.

> I can name a couple of (probably minor) downsides:
>
> * The project detection would be slower (more disk I/O).
> * project-root would more often return a string that is not a parent
> directory of default-directory. Some code out there probably
> soft-depends on that.
>

I've been running with the following for a while and haven't found any
issues yet, hence the patch to help others with similar situations.

  (defun my/project--find-in-directory-advice (args)
    (cons (file-truename (car args)) (cdr args)))
  (advice-add #'project--find-in-directory :filter-args
#'my/project--find-in-directory-advice)

We can make this a user option nil (default), t (always), 'inhibit-remote
so the user can avoid hammering remote connections.  If we could normalize
at a lower level and still retain the symmetry between default-directory
and a normalized project object, that would suggest caches like the one in
project-try-vc have to cache more than one project directory form.  Doesn't
seem worth the complexity?

-Stephane

--00000000000047875a0630c44f71
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 10:15=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:dmitry@HIDDEN">dmitry@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex">Hi!<br>
<br>
On 19/03/2025 18:55, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
&gt; This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share resolv=
ed <br>
&gt; directory locations.=C2=A0 This has bothered me for a while, so here w=
e go.<br>
<br>
Could you describe the reasons why your setup is the way it is?<br></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
monospace">Many of us here do the same out of habit and convenience to norm=
alize our own directory trees as an overlay on the varied-structured work w=
e need to deal with.</div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex">
Personally, I&#39;ve never used symlinks at this level, and if I did, I&#39=
;m <br>
not sure I would see the problem with project-root returning different <br>
strings for those.<br></blockquote><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex">
What exactly is the problem? Having the &quot;same&quot; project multiple t=
imes in <br>
project history?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">If one loads two files from the=
 same project but one via the symlinked path, and another via the natural p=
ath (often, an underlying tool will choose natural while Emacs chooses defa=
ult-directory), and one has tools that compare project-likeness between/amo=
ng buffers, they report different projects.=C2=A0 That&#39;s misleading=C2=
=A0and annoying.</div></div><div></div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I can name a couple of (probably minor) downsides:<br>
<br>
* The project detection would be slower (more disk I/O).<br>
* project-root would more often return a string that is not a parent <br>
directory of default-directory. Some code out there probably <br>
soft-depends on that.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">I&#39;ve been running with the =
following for a while and haven&#39;t found any issues yet,=C2=A0hence the =
patch to help others with similar situations.</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:monospace">=C2=A0 (defun my/project--find-in-director=
y-advice (args)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (cons (file-truename (car args)) (cdr args=
)))<br>=C2=A0 (advice-add #&#39;project--find-in-directory :filter-args #&#=
39;my/project--find-in-directory-advice)<br></div><br></div><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">We can make this a user =
option nil (default), t (always), &#39;inhibit-remote so the=C2=A0user can =
avoid hammering remote connections.=C2=A0 If we could normalize at a lower =
level and still retain the symmetry between default-directory and a normali=
zed project object, that would suggest caches like the one in project-try-v=
c have to cache more than one project directory form.=C2=A0 Doesn&#39;t see=
m worth the complexity?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
monospace">-Stephane</div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div>

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Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN> writes:

> Hi!
>
> On 19/03/2025 18:55, Ship Mints wrote:
>> This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share
>> resolved directory locations.=C2=A0 This has bothered me for a while, so
>> here we go.
>
> Could you describe the reasons why your setup is the way it is?
>
> Personally, I've never used symlinks at this level, and if I did, I'm
> not sure I would see the problem with project-root returning different
> strings for those.
>
> What exactly is the problem? Having the "same" project multiple times
> in project history?
>
> I can name a couple of (probably minor) downsides:
>
> * The project detection would be slower (more disk I/O).
> * project-root would more often return a string that is not a parent
>   directory of default-directory. Some code out there probably
>   soft-depends on that.

FWIW, I sometimes symlink convenient names to inconvenient ones, and it
would be a shame to use the inconvenient names due to excessive
symlink chasing. (Other packages aren't great about this.) Can't people
who want symlink chasing add something to project-find-functions?

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On Sat, Mar 22, 2025 at 9:47=E2=80=AFPM Daniel Colascione <dancol@HIDDEN=
g> wrote:

> Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > On 19/03/2025 18:55, Ship Mints wrote:
> >> This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share
> >> resolved directory locations.  This has bothered me for a while, so
> >> here we go.
> >
> > Could you describe the reasons why your setup is the way it is?
> >
> > Personally, I've never used symlinks at this level, and if I did, I'm
> > not sure I would see the problem with project-root returning different
> > strings for those.
> >
> > What exactly is the problem? Having the "same" project multiple times
> > in project history?
> >
> > I can name a couple of (probably minor) downsides:
> >
> > * The project detection would be slower (more disk I/O).
> > * project-root would more often return a string that is not a parent
> >   directory of default-directory. Some code out there probably
> >   soft-depends on that.
>
> FWIW, I sometimes symlink convenient names to inconvenient ones, and it
> would be a shame to use the inconvenient names due to excessive
> symlink chasing. (Other packages aren't great about this.) Can't people
> who want symlink chasing add something to project-find-functions?
>

Yeah, good question.  "Can't people" applies pretty much to every feature
and option added to Emacs that people can do themselves including
overriding functions wholesale.  The bigger picture, to me, is that if we
add options to do things like this for our users, then we can help more of
them, we can refine implementations at deeper levels should we need to, we
can prompt people to think more considerately about their working
environments.  Perhaps some never considered using symlinks as vanity paths
and they'll have the choice to treat project objects among those
paths canonically.

Since I suggested it be optional, it would be off by default, right?  If
you think you'd want to canonicalize paths to project roots in some places
and not others, perhaps we could contrive a project sentinel file ala
.project-notruename.el/d or .project-config.el/d, and for people that want
to do things in code, a list project can consult.

--0000000000004372340631143cec
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Sat, Mar 22, 2025 at 9:47=E2=80=AFPM Daniel Colascione &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dancol@HIDDEN">dancol@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex">Dmitry Gutov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN=
" target=3D"_blank">dmitry@HIDDEN</a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
&gt; Hi!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 19/03/2025 18:55, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; This avoids duplicate projects accessed via symlinks that share<br=
>
&gt;&gt; resolved directory locations.=C2=A0 This has bothered me for a whi=
le, so<br>
&gt;&gt; here we go.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Could you describe the reasons why your setup is the way it is?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Personally, I&#39;ve never used symlinks at this level, and if I did, =
I&#39;m<br>
&gt; not sure I would see the problem with project-root returning different=
<br>
&gt; strings for those.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; What exactly is the problem? Having the &quot;same&quot; project multi=
ple times<br>
&gt; in project history?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I can name a couple of (probably minor) downsides:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; * The project detection would be slower (more disk I/O).<br>
&gt; * project-root would more often return a string that is not a parent<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0directory of default-directory. Some code out there probab=
ly<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0soft-depends on that.<br>
<br>
FWIW, I sometimes symlink convenient names to inconvenient ones, and it<br>
would be a shame to use the inconvenient names due to excessive<br>
symlink chasing. (Other packages aren&#39;t great about this.) Can&#39;t pe=
ople<br>
who want symlink chasing add something to project-find-functions?<br></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil=
y:monospace">Yeah, good question.=C2=A0 &quot;Can&#39;t people&quot; applie=
s pretty much to every feature and option added to Emacs that people can do=
 themselves including overriding functions wholesale.=C2=A0 The bigger pict=
ure, to me, is that if we add options to do things like this for our=C2=A0u=
sers, then we can help more of them, we can refine implementations at deepe=
r levels should we need to, we can prompt people to think more consideratel=
y about their working environments.=C2=A0 Perhaps some never considered usi=
ng symlinks as vanity paths and they&#39;ll have the choice to treat projec=
t objects among those paths=C2=A0canonically.</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:monospace">Since I suggested it be optional, it would=
 be off by default,=C2=A0right?=C2=A0 If you think you&#39;d want to canoni=
calize paths to project roots in some places and not others, perhaps we cou=
ld contrive a project sentinel file ala .project-notruename.el/d or .projec=
t-config.el/d, and for people that want to do things in code, a list projec=
t can consult.</div></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div>

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> Cc: 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN>
> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 06:40:29 -0400
> 
> Since I suggested it be optional, it would be off by default, right?  If you think you'd want to canonicalize
> paths to project roots in some places and not others, perhaps we could contrive a project sentinel file ala .
> project-notruename.el/d or .project-config.el/d, and for people that want to do things in code, a list project
> can consult.

AFAIR, you didn't respond to my suggest to try a different solution.
Namely, instead of changing the file name by resolving links,
something that could cause problems for some people, how about using
file-equal-p to avoid duplication of projects in these cases?  If my
proposal makes sense, it will allow use to avoid duplication without
changing the file names, because symlinks will be chased internally,
only where we decide whether two projects are different or not.

This is better than having an optional behavior, because inevitably
someone will want to use this option, but also wouldn't like his/her
project directories appear under their resolved names, and then we are
back at the same problem.

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On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 9:03=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > Cc: 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN>
> > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 06:40:29 -0400
> >
> > Since I suggested it be optional, it would be off by default, right?  I=
f
> you think you'd want to canonicalize
> > paths to project roots in some places and not others, perhaps we could
> contrive a project sentinel file ala .
> > project-notruename.el/d or .project-config.el/d, and for people that
> want to do things in code, a list project
> > can consult.
>
> AFAIR, you didn't respond to my suggest to try a different solution.
> Namely, instead of changing the file name by resolving links,
> something that could cause problems for some people, how about using
> file-equal-p to avoid duplication of projects in these cases?  If my
> proposal makes sense, it will allow use to avoid duplication without
> changing the file names, because symlinks will be chased internally,
> only where we decide whether two projects are different or not.
>
> This is better than having an optional behavior, because inevitably
> someone will want to use this option, but also wouldn't like his/her
> project directories appear under their resolved names, and then we are
> back at the same problem.
>

I did consider it.  The most popular project objects, project-vc, and
transient are defined as (list 'vc vcbackend dir) and (cons 'transient
dir), respectively and vc objects are cached.  If we don't canonicalize the
dir name, we can't find the vc cache entry if a probe is attempted from
another dir, even if that dir morally is equivalent.  One can't change the
embedded dir on the way out of without creating two objects, one with the
first location to create the cache entry, and a second from an equivalent
convenience dir.

I'm curious to hear more about why people would object to (project-root
project-obj) being canonicalized.  I don't think many people ever manually
enter project dirs.  The persisted known projects, I'd think, would also
benefit from no duplicates.

If you see the place in project.el where file-equal-p helps, I'll happily
hack on it.

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=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, Dmitry Gutov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@gu=
tov.dev" target=3D"_blank">dmitry@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN" target=3D"=
_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 06:40:29 -0400<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Since I suggested it be optional, it would be off by default, right?=
=C2=A0 If you think you&#39;d want to canonicalize<br>
&gt; paths to project roots in some places and not others, perhaps we could=
 contrive a project sentinel file ala .<br>
&gt; project-notruename.el/d or .project-config.el/d, and for people that w=
ant to do things in code, a list project<br>
&gt; can consult.<br>
<br>
AFAIR, you didn&#39;t respond to my suggest to try a different solution.<br=
>
Namely, instead of changing the file name by resolving links,<br>
something that could cause problems for some people, how about using<br>
file-equal-p to avoid duplication of projects in these cases?=C2=A0 If my<b=
r>
proposal makes sense, it will allow use to avoid duplication without<br>
changing the file names, because symlinks will be chased internally,<br>
only where we decide whether two projects are different or not.<br>
<br>
This is better than having an optional behavior, because inevitably<br>
someone will want to use this option, but also wouldn&#39;t like his/her<br=
>
project directories appear under their resolved names, and then we are<br>
back at the same problem.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">I did consider it.=C2=A0 The mos=
t popular project objects, project-vc, and transient are defined as (list &=
#39;vc vcbackend dir) and (cons &#39;transient dir), respectively and vc ob=
jects are cached.=C2=A0 If we don&#39;t canonicalize the dir name, we can&#=
39;t find the vc cache entry if a probe is attempted from another dir, even=
 if that dir morally=C2=A0is=C2=A0equivalent.=C2=A0 One can&#39;t change th=
e embedded dir on the way out of without creating two objects, one with the=
 first location to create the cache entry, and a second from an equivalent =
convenience dir.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:mon=
ospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospa=
ce">I&#39;m curious to hear more about why people would object to (project-=
root project-obj) being canonicalized.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think many people =
ever manually enter project dirs.=C2=A0 The persisted known projects, I&#39=
;d think, would also benefit from no duplicates.</div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:monospace">If you see the place in project.el=C2=
=A0where file-equal-p helps, I&#39;ll happily hack on it.=C2=A0</div></div>=
</div>

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> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 11:15:20 -0400
> Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 9:03 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> 
>  AFAIR, you didn't respond to my suggest to try a different solution.
>  Namely, instead of changing the file name by resolving links,
>  something that could cause problems for some people, how about using
>  file-equal-p to avoid duplication of projects in these cases?  If my
>  proposal makes sense, it will allow use to avoid duplication without
>  changing the file names, because symlinks will be chased internally,
>  only where we decide whether two projects are different or not.
> 
>  This is better than having an optional behavior, because inevitably
>  someone will want to use this option, but also wouldn't like his/her
>  project directories appear under their resolved names, and then we are
>  back at the same problem.
> 
> I did consider it.  The most popular project objects, project-vc, and transient are defined as (list 'vc
> vcbackend dir) and (cons 'transient dir), respectively and vc objects are cached.  If we don't canonicalize the
> dir name, we can't find the vc cache entry if a probe is attempted from another dir, even if that dir morally is
> equivalent.

Why can't we? what precludes that?

> If you see the place in project.el where file-equal-p helps, I'll happily hack on it. 

I'm sorry, I cannot afford looking through the project.el code to find
this.  But if the problem is that directories or files don't compare
equal, the file-equal-p is the way to go, so I don't understand why
the places where we do the comparison should be hard to find for
someone who knows their way in project.el's code and/or has enough
time to dig.

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On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 2:24=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 11:15:20 -0400
> > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 9:03=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:
> >
> >  AFAIR, you didn't respond to my suggest to try a different solution.
> >  Namely, instead of changing the file name by resolving links,
> >  something that could cause problems for some people, how about using
> >  file-equal-p to avoid duplication of projects in these cases?  If my
> >  proposal makes sense, it will allow use to avoid duplication without
> >  changing the file names, because symlinks will be chased internally,
> >  only where we decide whether two projects are different or not.
> >
> >  This is better than having an optional behavior, because inevitably
> >  someone will want to use this option, but also wouldn't like his/her
> >  project directories appear under their resolved names, and then we are
> >  back at the same problem.
> >
> > I did consider it.  The most popular project objects, project-vc, and
> transient are defined as (list 'vc
> > vcbackend dir) and (cons 'transient dir), respectively and vc objects
> are cached.  If we don't canonicalize the
> > dir name, we can't find the vc cache entry if a probe is attempted from
> another dir, even if that dir morally is
> > equivalent.
>
> Why can't we? what precludes that?
>

Nothing.  Just a matter of programming, as always.  We need to restructure
some of project.el to make this work well.  I'll have a deeper look/think.

> If you see the place in project.el where file-equal-p helps, I'll happily
> hack on it.
>
> I'm sorry, I cannot afford looking through the project.el code to find
> this.  But if the problem is that directories or files don't compare
> equal, the file-equal-p is the way to go, so I don't understand why
> the places where we do the comparison should be hard to find for
> someone who knows their way in project.el's code and/or has enough
> time to dig.
>

You don't have to look.  The issue is that no directories are explicitly
compared.  You just have to humor that it's a bit evil that a
singular project approached from different places produces two different
project objects.

-Stephane

--000000000000f704c406311b9fd8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 2:24=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN"=
 target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 11:15:20 -0400<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dancol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">dancol@danc=
ol.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank">7712=
2 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank=
">dmitry@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 9:03=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 AFAIR, you didn&#39;t respond to my suggest to try a different s=
olution.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 Namely, instead of changing the file name by resolving links,<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 something that could cause problems for some people, how about u=
sing<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 file-equal-p to avoid duplication of projects in these cases?=C2=
=A0 If my<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 proposal makes sense, it will allow use to avoid duplication wit=
hout<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 changing the file names, because symlinks will be chased interna=
lly,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 only where we decide whether two projects are different or not.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 This is better than having an optional behavior, because inevita=
bly<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 someone will want to use this option, but also wouldn&#39;t like=
 his/her<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 project directories appear under their resolved names, and then =
we are<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 back at the same problem.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I did consider it.=C2=A0 The most popular project objects, project-vc,=
 and transient are defined as (list &#39;vc<br>
&gt; vcbackend dir) and (cons &#39;transient dir), respectively and vc obje=
cts are cached.=C2=A0 If we don&#39;t canonicalize the<br>
&gt; dir name, we can&#39;t find the vc cache entry if a probe is attempted=
 from another dir, even if that dir morally is<br>
&gt; equivalent.<br>
<br>
Why can&#39;t we? what precludes that?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">Nothing.=C2=A0=
 Just a matter of programming, as always.=C2=A0 We need to restructure some=
 of project.el to make this work well.=C2=A0 I&#39;ll have a deeper look/th=
ink.</div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex">
&gt; If you see the place in project.el where file-equal-p helps, I&#39;ll =
happily hack on it. <br>
<br>
I&#39;m sorry, I cannot afford looking through the project.el code to find<=
br>
this.=C2=A0 But if the problem is that directories or files don&#39;t compa=
re<br>
equal, the file-equal-p is the way to go, so I don&#39;t understand why<br>
the places where we do the comparison should be hard to find for<br>
someone who knows their way in project.el&#39;s code and/or has enough<br>
time to dig.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:monospace">You don&#39;t have to look.=C2=A0 The is=
sue is that no directories are explicitly compared.=C2=A0 You just have to =
humor that it&#39;s a bit evil that a singular=C2=A0project=C2=A0approached=
 from different places produces two different project=C2=A0objects.</div></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">-Stephane</div=
></div></div>

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> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:29:26 -0400
> Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> 
>  > If you see the place in project.el where file-equal-p helps, I'll happily hack on it. 
> 
>  I'm sorry, I cannot afford looking through the project.el code to find
>  this.  But if the problem is that directories or files don't compare
>  equal, the file-equal-p is the way to go, so I don't understand why
>  the places where we do the comparison should be hard to find for
>  someone who knows their way in project.el's code and/or has enough
>  time to dig.
> 
> You don't have to look.  The issue is that no directories are explicitly compared.  You just have to humor
> that it's a bit evil that a singular project approached from different places produces two different project
> objects.

I'm confused: how does project.el know it's the same or a different
project, without comparing?

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On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 3:34=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:29:26 -0400
> > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> >
> >  > If you see the place in project.el where file-equal-p helps, I'll
> happily hack on it.
> >
> >  I'm sorry, I cannot afford looking through the project.el code to find
> >  this.  But if the problem is that directories or files don't compare
> >  equal, the file-equal-p is the way to go, so I don't understand why
> >  the places where we do the comparison should be hard to find for
> >  someone who knows their way in project.el's code and/or has enough
> >  time to dig.
> >
> > You don't have to look.  The issue is that no directories are explicitl=
y
> compared.  You just have to humor
> > that it's a bit evil that a singular project approached from different
> places produces two different project
> > objects.
>
> I'm confused: how does project.el know it's the same or a different
> project, without comparing?
>

It looks for root markers in/below the specified directory such as .git for
project-vc.  Once found, it records a project object in a cache based on
the dir it originally searched.  If approached from another directory, it
repeats the process naively.  That's what using the canonical name solved
for--that all searches use the same key.  The resulting "issue" would be
that calling (project-root project-object) might return a directory
different than default-directory for a particular buffer.  It wouldn't be a
misrepresentation.

--000000000000f10e4f06311bc3b1
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 3:34=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN"=
 target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:29:26 -0400<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dancol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">dancol@danc=
ol.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank">7712=
2 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank=
">dmitry@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; If you see the place in project.el where file-equal-p helps=
, I&#39;ll happily hack on it. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 I&#39;m sorry, I cannot afford looking through the project.el co=
de to find<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 this.=C2=A0 But if the problem is that directories or files don&=
#39;t compare<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 equal, the file-equal-p is the way to go, so I don&#39;t underst=
and why<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 the places where we do the comparison should be hard to find for=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 someone who knows their way in project.el&#39;s code and/or has =
enough<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 time to dig.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; You don&#39;t have to look.=C2=A0 The issue is that no directories are=
 explicitly compared.=C2=A0 You just have to humor<br>
&gt; that it&#39;s a bit evil that a singular project approached from diffe=
rent places produces two different project<br>
&gt; objects.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m confused: how does project.el know it&#39;s the same or a different=
<br>
project, without comparing?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">It looks for root markers in/b=
elow the specified directory such as .git for project-vc.=C2=A0 Once found,=
 it records a project object in a cache based on the dir it originally sear=
ched.=C2=A0 If approached from another directory, it repeats the process na=
ively.=C2=A0 That&#39;s what using the canonical name solved for--that all =
searches use the same key.=C2=A0 The resulting &quot;issue&quot; would be t=
hat calling (project-root project-object) might return a directory differen=
t than default-directory for a particular buffer.=C2=A0 It wouldn&#39;t be =
a misrepresentation.</div></div></div>

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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 22:05:06 +0200
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:39:30 -0400
> Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 3:34 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> 
>  > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
>  > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:29:26 -0400
>  > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
>  > 
>  >  > If you see the place in project.el where file-equal-p helps, I'll happily hack on it. 
>  > 
>  >  I'm sorry, I cannot afford looking through the project.el code to find
>  >  this.  But if the problem is that directories or files don't compare
>  >  equal, the file-equal-p is the way to go, so I don't understand why
>  >  the places where we do the comparison should be hard to find for
>  >  someone who knows their way in project.el's code and/or has enough
>  >  time to dig.
>  > 
>  > You don't have to look.  The issue is that no directories are explicitly compared.  You just have to
>  humor
>  > that it's a bit evil that a singular project approached from different places produces two different
>  project
>  > objects.
> 
>  I'm confused: how does project.el know it's the same or a different
>  project, without comparing?
> 
> It looks for root markers in/below the specified directory such as .git for project-vc.  Once found, it records a
> project object in a cache based on the dir it originally searched.  If approached from another directory, it
> repeats the process naively.

In this description, the directory appears twice.  Assuming that the
project object either records the directory or the cache uses the
directory as the key, using file-equal-p should solve the problem, AFAIU.

> That's what using the canonical name solved for--that all searches use the
> same key.

You can use the same key when searching without canonicalizing, can't you?

> The resulting "issue" would be that calling (project-root project-object) might return a directory
> different than default-directory for a particular buffer.  It wouldn't be a misrepresentation.

As this discussion shows, it might well be a "misrepresentation" in
some cases.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:39:30 -0400
> > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 3:34=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:
> >
> >  > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> >  > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:29:26 -0400
> >  > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> >  >
> >  >  > If you see the place in project.el where file-equal-p helps, I'll
> happily hack on it.
> >  >
> >  >  I'm sorry, I cannot afford looking through the project.el code to
> find
> >  >  this.  But if the problem is that directories or files don't compar=
e
> >  >  equal, the file-equal-p is the way to go, so I don't understand why
> >  >  the places where we do the comparison should be hard to find for
> >  >  someone who knows their way in project.el's code and/or has enough
> >  >  time to dig.
> >  >
> >  > You don't have to look.  The issue is that no directories are
> explicitly compared.  You just have to
> >  humor
> >  > that it's a bit evil that a singular project approached from
> different places produces two different
> >  project
> >  > objects.
> >
> >  I'm confused: how does project.el know it's the same or a different
> >  project, without comparing?
> >
> > It looks for root markers in/below the specified directory such as .git
> for project-vc.  Once found, it records a
> > project object in a cache based on the dir it originally searched.  If
> approached from another directory, it
> > repeats the process naively.
>
> In this description, the directory appears twice.  Assuming that the
> project object either records the directory or the cache uses the
> directory as the key, using file-equal-p should solve the problem, AFAIU.
>
> > That's what using the canonical name solved for--that all searches use
> the
> > same key.
>
> You can use the same key when searching without canonicalizing, can't you=
?
>
> > The resulting "issue" would be that calling (project-root
> project-object) might return a directory
> > different than default-directory for a particular buffer.  It wouldn't
> be a misrepresentation.
>
> As this discussion shows, it might well be a "misrepresentation" in
> some cases.
>

Maybe unexpected but not a misrepresentation.

In any case, the project object returned must be equivalent for both
directories passed in and that's not how project.el is structured.  Using
file-equal-p or any other method to find an "equivalent" project object but
substitute the "expected" directory results in two objects that don't
compare as equal and that's a misrepresentation IMO.

--000000000000b9926106311c4362
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN"=
 target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:39:30 -0400<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dancol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">dancol@danc=
ol.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank">7712=
2 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank=
">dmitry@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 3:34=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN"=
 target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:29:26 -0400<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dancol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">=
dancol@HIDDEN</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_=
blank">77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN" targe=
t=3D"_blank">dmitry@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; If you see the place in project.el where file-eq=
ual-p helps, I&#39;ll happily hack on it. <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 I&#39;m sorry, I cannot afford looking through the pr=
oject.el code to find<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 this.=C2=A0 But if the problem is that directories or=
 files don&#39;t compare<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 equal, the file-equal-p is the way to go, so I don&#3=
9;t understand why<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 the places where we do the comparison should be hard =
to find for<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 someone who knows their way in project.el&#39;s code =
and/or has enough<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 time to dig.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; You don&#39;t have to look.=C2=A0 The issue is that no dire=
ctories are explicitly compared.=C2=A0 You just have to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 humor<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; that it&#39;s a bit evil that a singular project approached=
 from different places produces two different<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 project<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; objects.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 I&#39;m confused: how does project.el know it&#39;s the same or =
a different<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 project, without comparing?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It looks for root markers in/below the specified directory such as .gi=
t for project-vc.=C2=A0 Once found, it records a<br>
&gt; project object in a cache based on the dir it originally searched.=C2=
=A0 If approached from another directory, it<br>
&gt; repeats the process naively.<br>
<br>
In this description, the directory appears twice.=C2=A0 Assuming that the<b=
r>
project object either records the directory or the cache uses the<br>
directory as the key, using file-equal-p should solve the problem, AFAIU.<b=
r>
<br>
&gt; That&#39;s what using the canonical name solved for--that all searches=
 use the<br>
&gt; same key.<br>
<br>
You can use the same key when searching without canonicalizing, can&#39;t y=
ou?<br>
<br>
&gt; The resulting &quot;issue&quot; would be that calling (project-root pr=
oject-object) might return a directory<br>
&gt; different than default-directory for a particular buffer.=C2=A0 It wou=
ldn&#39;t be a misrepresentation.<br>
<br>
As this discussion shows, it might well be a &quot;misrepresentation&quot; =
in<br>
some cases.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:monospace">Maybe unexpected but not a misrepresentation.<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">In any case, =
the project object returned must be equivalent for both directories passed =
in and that&#39;s not how project.el is structured.=C2=A0 Using file-equal-=
p or any other method to find an &quot;equivalent&quot; project object but =
substitute the &quot;expected&quot; directory results in two objects that d=
on&#39;t compare as equal and that&#39;s a misrepresentation IMO.</div></di=
v></div>

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--0000000000004d834e06311c69bd
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On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 4:15=E2=80=AFPM Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:

> On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrot=
e:
>
>> > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
>> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:39:30 -0400
>> > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 3:34=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> w=
rote:
>> >
>> >  > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
>> >  > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:29:26 -0400
>> >  > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
>> >  >
>> >  >  > If you see the place in project.el where file-equal-p helps, I'l=
l
>> happily hack on it.
>> >  >
>> >  >  I'm sorry, I cannot afford looking through the project.el code to
>> find
>> >  >  this.  But if the problem is that directories or files don't compa=
re
>> >  >  equal, the file-equal-p is the way to go, so I don't understand wh=
y
>> >  >  the places where we do the comparison should be hard to find for
>> >  >  someone who knows their way in project.el's code and/or has enough
>> >  >  time to dig.
>> >  >
>> >  > You don't have to look.  The issue is that no directories are
>> explicitly compared.  You just have to
>> >  humor
>> >  > that it's a bit evil that a singular project approached from
>> different places produces two different
>> >  project
>> >  > objects.
>> >
>> >  I'm confused: how does project.el know it's the same or a different
>> >  project, without comparing?
>> >
>> > It looks for root markers in/below the specified directory such as .gi=
t
>> for project-vc.  Once found, it records a
>> > project object in a cache based on the dir it originally searched.  If
>> approached from another directory, it
>> > repeats the process naively.
>>
>> In this description, the directory appears twice.  Assuming that the
>> project object either records the directory or the cache uses the
>> directory as the key, using file-equal-p should solve the problem, AFAIU=
.
>>
>> > That's what using the canonical name solved for--that all searches use
>> the
>> > same key.
>>
>> You can use the same key when searching without canonicalizing, can't yo=
u?
>>
>> > The resulting "issue" would be that calling (project-root
>> project-object) might return a directory
>> > different than default-directory for a particular buffer.  It wouldn't
>> be a misrepresentation.
>>
>> As this discussion shows, it might well be a "misrepresentation" in
>> some cases.
>>
>
> Maybe unexpected but not a misrepresentation.
>
> In any case, the project object returned must be equivalent for both
> directories passed in and that's not how project.el is structured.  Using
> file-equal-p or any other method to find an "equivalent" project object b=
ut
> substitute the "expected" directory results in two objects that don't
> compare as equal and that's a misrepresentation IMO.
>

To concretely demonstrate the differences, the function project-name will
return different results for each project object based on buffers loaded
from different paths, despite the projects being equivalent.

project-name is defined as:

(file-name-nondirectory (directory-file-name (project-root project)))

If the root directory is determined to be different, the objects return
different names (and different roots).

--0000000000004d834e06311c69bd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 4:15=E2=80=AFPM Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sh=
ipmints@HIDDEN">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On =
Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:el=
iz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN" target=
=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:39:30 -0400<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dancol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">dancol@danc=
ol.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank">7712=
2 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank=
">dmitry@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 3:34=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN"=
 target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:29:26 -0400<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dancol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">=
dancol@HIDDEN</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_=
blank">77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN" targe=
t=3D"_blank">dmitry@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; If you see the place in project.el where file-eq=
ual-p helps, I&#39;ll happily hack on it. <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 I&#39;m sorry, I cannot afford looking through the pr=
oject.el code to find<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 this.=C2=A0 But if the problem is that directories or=
 files don&#39;t compare<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 equal, the file-equal-p is the way to go, so I don&#3=
9;t understand why<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 the places where we do the comparison should be hard =
to find for<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 someone who knows their way in project.el&#39;s code =
and/or has enough<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 time to dig.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; You don&#39;t have to look.=C2=A0 The issue is that no dire=
ctories are explicitly compared.=C2=A0 You just have to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 humor<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; that it&#39;s a bit evil that a singular project approached=
 from different places produces two different<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 project<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; objects.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 I&#39;m confused: how does project.el know it&#39;s the same or =
a different<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 project, without comparing?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It looks for root markers in/below the specified directory such as .gi=
t for project-vc.=C2=A0 Once found, it records a<br>
&gt; project object in a cache based on the dir it originally searched.=C2=
=A0 If approached from another directory, it<br>
&gt; repeats the process naively.<br>
<br>
In this description, the directory appears twice.=C2=A0 Assuming that the<b=
r>
project object either records the directory or the cache uses the<br>
directory as the key, using file-equal-p should solve the problem, AFAIU.<b=
r>
<br>
&gt; That&#39;s what using the canonical name solved for--that all searches=
 use the<br>
&gt; same key.<br>
<br>
You can use the same key when searching without canonicalizing, can&#39;t y=
ou?<br>
<br>
&gt; The resulting &quot;issue&quot; would be that calling (project-root pr=
oject-object) might return a directory<br>
&gt; different than default-directory for a particular buffer.=C2=A0 It wou=
ldn&#39;t be a misrepresentation.<br>
<br>
As this discussion shows, it might well be a &quot;misrepresentation&quot; =
in<br>
some cases.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:monosp=
ace">Maybe unexpected but not a misrepresentation.</div><div style=3D"font-=
family:monospace"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:monospace">In any cas=
e, the project object returned must be equivalent for both directories pass=
ed in and that&#39;s not how project.el is structured.=C2=A0 Using file-equ=
al-p or any other method to find an &quot;equivalent&quot; project object b=
ut substitute the &quot;expected&quot; directory results in two objects tha=
t don&#39;t compare as equal and that&#39;s a misrepresentation IMO.</div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:monospace">To concretely demonstrate the differences, the f=
unction project-name will return different results for each project object =
based on buffers loaded from different paths, despite the projects being eq=
uivalent.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"=
><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">pro=
ject-name is defined as:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:monospace">(file-name-nondirectory (directory-file-name (project-root proj=
ect)))</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">If the=
 root directory is determined to be different, the objects return different=
 names (and different roots).</div></div></div>

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On 24/03/2025 17:15, Ship Mints wrote:
> I'm curious to hear more about why people would object to (project-root 
> project-obj) being canonicalized.  I don't think many people ever 
> manually enter project dirs.  The persisted known projects, I'd think, 
> would also benefit from no duplicates.

I wonder if you yourself would prefer for all buffer-file-name values, 
and default-directory values, to be canonicalized as well.

The same reasoning would seem to apply to them too anyway.

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--00000000000084938a0631288c2a
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On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 10:16=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:

> On 24/03/2025 17:15, Ship Mints wrote:
> > I'm curious to hear more about why people would object to (project-root
> > project-obj) being canonicalized.  I don't think many people ever
> > manually enter project dirs.  The persisted known projects, I'd think,
> > would also benefit from no duplicates.
>
> I wonder if you yourself would prefer for all buffer-file-name values,
> and default-directory values, to be canonicalized as well.
>
> The same reasoning would seem to apply to them too anyway.
>

Ochen funny. I'll submit a separate patch for that one day (sarcasm doesn't
work in email, sorry).

In the meantime, I maintain my view that project.el needs to report uniform
project names and roots for identical projects approached from different
places, even if optional.

I just took a look at projectile.el, which I'd never looked at before
because I prefer using/improving core features.  It has a longer user
history to see what they've experienced (and it looks like some of
project.el's approach is copied almost verbatim e.g., the implementation of
project-name).  projectile seems to both have users that want symlink
chasing and those that don't (looks like ClearCase users--but out of
necessity not desire?).  As those concerns seem to be project dependent, we
could an option that is a list of paths or matchers to include/exclude from
chasing, and also a project root semaphore file or project config as I
suggested in another message in this thread.

I'd enable chasing as my default, opt out in a specific project should I
ever have one that needs it rather than the other way around, and enjoy
project-name and project-root uniformity.

-Stephane

--00000000000084938a0631288c2a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 10:16=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:dmitry@HIDDEN">dmitry@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex">On 24/03/2025 17:15, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
&gt; I&#39;m curious to hear more about why people would object to (project=
-root <br>
&gt; project-obj) being canonicalized.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think many people =
ever <br>
&gt; manually enter project dirs.=C2=A0 The persisted known projects, I&#39=
;d think, <br>
&gt; would also benefit from no duplicates.<br>
<br>
I wonder if you yourself would prefer for all buffer-file-name values, <br>
and default-directory values, to be canonicalized as well.<br>
<br>
The same reasoning would seem to apply to them too anyway.<br></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"=
>Ochen funny. I&#39;ll submit a separate patch for that one day (sarcasm do=
esn&#39;t work in email, sorry).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace">In the meantime, I maintain my view that project.el nee=
ds to report uniform project names and roots for identical projects approac=
hed from different places, even if optional.</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:monospace">I just took a look at projectile.el, which =
I&#39;d never looked at before because I prefer using/improving core featur=
es.=C2=A0 It has a longer user history to see what they&#39;ve experienced =
(and it looks like some of project.el&#39;s approach is copied almost verba=
tim e.g., the implementation of project-name).=C2=A0 projectile seems to bo=
th have users that want symlink chasing and those that don&#39;t (looks lik=
e ClearCase users--but out of necessity not desire?).=C2=A0 As those concer=
ns seem to be project dependent, we could an option that is a list of paths=
 or matchers to include/exclude from chasing, and also a project root semap=
hore file or project config as I suggested in another message in this threa=
d.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">I&#39;d en=
able chasing as my default, opt out in a specific project should I ever hav=
e one that needs it rather than the other way around, and enjoy project-nam=
e and project-root uniformity.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:monospace">-Stephane</div></div></div>

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> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 16:15:14 -0400
> Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> 
>  As this discussion shows, it might well be a "misrepresentation" in
>  some cases.
> 
> Maybe unexpected but not a misrepresentation.
> 
> In any case, the project object returned must be equivalent for both directories passed in and that's not how
> project.el is structured.  Using file-equal-p or any other method to find an "equivalent" project object but
> substitute the "expected" directory results in two objects that don't compare as equal and that's a
> misrepresentation IMO.

Thus my suggestion to make those objects 'equal', even if they aren't
'eq'.

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> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 16:25:44 -0400
> Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> 
> To concretely demonstrate the differences, the function project-name will return different results for each
> project object based on buffers loaded from different paths, despite the projects being equivalent.
> 
> project-name is defined as:
> 
> (file-name-nondirectory (directory-file-name (project-root project)))
> 
> If the root directory is determined to be different, the objects return different names (and different roots).

Unless I'm misunderstanding what Daniel wrote, the above is actually a
feature from his POV.

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--000000000000265842063129d418
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:17=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 16:25:44 -0400
> > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> >
> > To concretely demonstrate the differences, the function project-name
> will return different results for each
> > project object based on buffers loaded from different paths, despite th=
e
> projects being equivalent.
> >
> > project-name is defined as:
> >
> > (file-name-nondirectory (directory-file-name (project-root project)))
> >
> > If the root directory is determined to be different, the objects return
> different names (and different roots).
>
> Unless I'm misunderstanding what Daniel wrote, the above is actually a
> feature from his POV.
>

Indeed, it might be, but I'm curious what tooling he's using that depends
on project-root not being "absolute" so to speak, and relative to his
ambient default-directory.

--000000000000265842063129d418
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:17=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN"=
 target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 16:25:44 -0400<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dancol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">dancol@danc=
ol.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank">7712=
2 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank=
">dmitry@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; To concretely demonstrate the differences, the function project-name w=
ill return different results for each<br>
&gt; project object based on buffers loaded from different paths, despite t=
he projects being equivalent.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; project-name is defined as:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; (file-name-nondirectory (directory-file-name (project-root project)))<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If the root directory is determined to be different, the objects retur=
n different names (and different roots).<br>
<br>
Unless I&#39;m misunderstanding what Daniel wrote, the above is actually a<=
br>
feature from his POV.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:monospace">Indeed, it might be, but I&#39;m cur=
ious what tooling he&#39;s using that depends on project-root not being &qu=
ot;absolute&quot; so to speak, and relative to his ambient default-director=
y.</div></div></div>

--000000000000265842063129d418--

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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2025 08:27:45 -0400
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On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:15=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 16:15:14 -0400
> > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> >
> >  As this discussion shows, it might well be a "misrepresentation" in
> >  some cases.
> >
> > Maybe unexpected but not a misrepresentation.
> >
> > In any case, the project object returned must be equivalent for both
> directories passed in and that's not how
> > project.el is structured.  Using file-equal-p or any other method to
> find an "equivalent" project object but
> > substitute the "expected" directory results in two objects that don't
> compare as equal and that's a
> > misrepresentation IMO.
>
> Thus my suggestion to make those objects 'equal', even if they aren't
> 'eq'.
>

I hear you, 100%.  But I don't see a place to perform that comparison given
the current implementation.

--000000000000b737e2063129d94a
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:15=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN"=
 target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 16:15:14 -0400<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dancol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">dancol@danc=
ol.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank">7712=
2 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank=
">dmitry@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 As this discussion shows, it might well be a &quot;misrepresenta=
tion&quot; in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 some cases.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Maybe unexpected but not a misrepresentation.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In any case, the project object returned must be equivalent for both d=
irectories passed in and that&#39;s not how<br>
&gt; project.el is structured.=C2=A0 Using file-equal-p or any other method=
 to find an &quot;equivalent&quot; project object but<br>
&gt; substitute the &quot;expected&quot; directory results in two objects t=
hat don&#39;t compare as equal and that&#39;s a<br>
&gt; misrepresentation IMO.<br>
<br>
Thus my suggestion to make those objects &#39;equal&#39;, even if they aren=
&#39;t<br>
&#39;eq&#39;.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:monospace">I hear you, 100%.=C2=A0 But I don&#39;t see =
a place to perform that comparison given the current implementation.</div><=
/div></div>

--000000000000b737e2063129d94a--

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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2025 08:30:19 -0400
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On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:27=E2=80=AFAM Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:

> On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:15=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrot=
e:
>
>> > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
>> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 16:15:14 -0400
>> > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
>> >
>> >  As this discussion shows, it might well be a "misrepresentation" in
>> >  some cases.
>> >
>> > Maybe unexpected but not a misrepresentation.
>> >
>> > In any case, the project object returned must be equivalent for both
>> directories passed in and that's not how
>> > project.el is structured.  Using file-equal-p or any other method to
>> find an "equivalent" project object but
>> > substitute the "expected" directory results in two objects that don't
>> compare as equal and that's a
>> > misrepresentation IMO.
>>
>> Thus my suggestion to make those objects 'equal', even if they aren't
>> 'eq'.
>>
>
> I hear you, 100%.  But I don't see a place to perform that comparison
> given the current implementation.
>

I'll give you a concrete example I've been playing with.  I keep my Emacs
init files in a git repo.  I put the repo in ~/proj/emacs.d.  In my home
directory, I ln -s ~/proj/emacs.d .emacs.d.  In this set up, project-name
reports "emacs.d" when default-directory is relative to ~/proj/emacs.d and
".emacs.d" when relative to my home directory.  It's the same project and I
expect the name to be the same.  Also for project-root, as I've said.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:27=E2=80=AFAM Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sh=
ipmints@HIDDEN">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On =
Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:15=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:el=
iz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN" target=
=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 16:15:14 -0400<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dancol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">dancol@danc=
ol.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank">7712=
2 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank=
">dmitry@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 As this discussion shows, it might well be a &quot;misrepresenta=
tion&quot; in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 some cases.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Maybe unexpected but not a misrepresentation.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In any case, the project object returned must be equivalent for both d=
irectories passed in and that&#39;s not how<br>
&gt; project.el is structured.=C2=A0 Using file-equal-p or any other method=
 to find an &quot;equivalent&quot; project object but<br>
&gt; substitute the &quot;expected&quot; directory results in two objects t=
hat don&#39;t compare as equal and that&#39;s a<br>
&gt; misrepresentation IMO.<br>
<br>
Thus my suggestion to make those objects &#39;equal&#39;, even if they aren=
&#39;t<br>
&#39;eq&#39;.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:mono=
space">I hear you, 100%.=C2=A0 But I don&#39;t see a place to perform that =
comparison given the current implementation.</div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"=
>I&#39;ll give you a concrete example I&#39;ve been playing with.=C2=A0 I k=
eep my Emacs init files in a git repo.=C2=A0 I put the repo in ~/proj/emacs=
.d.=C2=A0 In my home directory, I ln -s ~/proj/emacs.d .emacs.d.=C2=A0 In t=
his set up, project-name reports &quot;emacs.d&quot; when default-directory=
 is relative to ~/proj/emacs.d and &quot;.emacs.d&quot; when relative to my=
 home directory.=C2=A0 It&#39;s the same project and I expect the name to b=
e the same.=C2=A0 Also for project-root, as I&#39;ve said.</div></div></div=
>

--000000000000e9492a063129e2e4--

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On March 25, 2025 6:54:34 AM EDT, Ship Mints <shipmints@gmail=2Ecom> wrote=
:
>On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 10:16=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@gutov=2Edev=
> wrote:
>
>> On 24/03/2025 17:15, Ship Mints wrote:
>> > I'm curious to hear more about why people would object to (project-ro=
ot
>> > project-obj) being canonicalized=2E  I don't think many people ever
>> > manually enter project dirs=2E  The persisted known projects, I'd thi=
nk,
>> > would also benefit from no duplicates=2E
>>
>> I wonder if you yourself would prefer for all buffer-file-name values,
>> and default-directory values, to be canonicalized as well=2E
>>
>> The same reasoning would seem to apply to them too anyway=2E
>>
>
>Ochen funny=2E I'll submit a separate patch for that one day (sarcasm doe=
sn't
>work in email, sorry)=2E
>
>In the meantime, I maintain my view that project=2Eel needs to report uni=
form
>project names and roots for identical projects approached from different
>places, even if optional=2E
>
>I just took a look at projectile=2Eel, which I'd never looked at before
>because I prefer using/improving core features=2E  It has a longer user
>history to see what they've experienced (and it looks like some of
>project=2Eel's approach is copied almost verbatim e=2Eg=2E, the implement=
ation of
>project-name)=2E  projectile seems to both have users that want symlink
>chasing and those that don't (looks like ClearCase users--but out of
>necessity not desire?)=2E  As those concerns seem to be project dependent=
, we
>could an option that is a list of paths or matchers to include/exclude fr=
om
>chasing, and also a project root semaphore file or project config as I
>suggested in another message in this thread=2E
>
>I'd enable chasing as my default, opt out in a specific project should I
>ever have one that needs it rather than the other way around, and enjoy
>project-name and project-root uniformity=2E
>
>-Stephane

Eli is right=2E You want either global path normalization or you don't=2E =
Doing it peacemeal at the project level might satisfy some small immediate =
need, but it won't solve the whole problem and will inevitably cause downst=
ream problems due to the incoherence=2E

Also, it's just not universally true that I want to regard the "real" vers=
ion of something as its realpath=2E People use symlinks differently=2E In a=
 world in which we had ubiquitous unprivileged bind mounts *and* symlinks, =
the realpath as identity concept might be more powerful, but we don't=2E

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
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--0000000000008accb406312a52c2
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On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:54=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Colascione <dancol@HIDDEN=
g> wrote:

>
>
> On March 25, 2025 6:54:34 AM EDT, Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> wrote:
> >On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 10:16=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN>=
 wrote:
> >
> >> On 24/03/2025 17:15, Ship Mints wrote:
> >> > I'm curious to hear more about why people would object to
> (project-root
> >> > project-obj) being canonicalized.  I don't think many people ever
> >> > manually enter project dirs.  The persisted known projects, I'd thin=
k,
> >> > would also benefit from no duplicates.
> >>
> >> I wonder if you yourself would prefer for all buffer-file-name values,
> >> and default-directory values, to be canonicalized as well.
> >>
> >> The same reasoning would seem to apply to them too anyway.
> >>
> >
> >Ochen funny. I'll submit a separate patch for that one day (sarcasm
> doesn't
> >work in email, sorry).
> >
> >In the meantime, I maintain my view that project.el needs to report
> uniform
> >project names and roots for identical projects approached from different
> >places, even if optional.
> >
> >I just took a look at projectile.el, which I'd never looked at before
> >because I prefer using/improving core features.  It has a longer user
> >history to see what they've experienced (and it looks like some of
> >project.el's approach is copied almost verbatim e.g., the implementation
> of
> >project-name).  projectile seems to both have users that want symlink
> >chasing and those that don't (looks like ClearCase users--but out of
> >necessity not desire?).  As those concerns seem to be project dependent,
> we
> >could an option that is a list of paths or matchers to include/exclude
> from
> >chasing, and also a project root semaphore file or project config as I
> >suggested in another message in this thread.
> >
> >I'd enable chasing as my default, opt out in a specific project should I
> >ever have one that needs it rather than the other way around, and enjoy
> >project-name and project-root uniformity.
> >
> >-Stephane
>
> Eli is right. You want either global path normalization or you don't.
> Doing it peacemeal at the project level might satisfy some small immediat=
e
> need, but it won't solve the whole problem and will inevitably cause
> downstream problems due to the incoherence.
>
> Also, it's just not universally true that I want to regard the "real"
> version of something as its realpath. People use symlinks differently. In=
 a
> world in which we had ubiquitous unprivileged bind mounts *and* symlinks,
> the realpath as identity concept might be more powerful, but we don't.
>

Again...I'm not saying universally, I'm saying optionally, and preferably
flexibly optional.

--0000000000008accb406312a52c2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:54=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Colascione &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dancol@HIDDEN">dancol@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On March 25, 2025 6:54:34 AM EDT, Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmint=
s@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 10:16=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dmitry@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">dmitry@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 24/03/2025 17:15, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I&#39;m curious to hear more about why people would object to=
 (project-root<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; project-obj) being canonicalized.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think man=
y people ever<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; manually enter project dirs.=C2=A0 The persisted known projec=
ts, I&#39;d think,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; would also benefit from no duplicates.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I wonder if you yourself would prefer for all buffer-file-name val=
ues,<br>
&gt;&gt; and default-directory values, to be canonicalized as well.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The same reasoning would seem to apply to them too anyway.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Ochen funny. I&#39;ll submit a separate patch for that one day (sarcasm=
 doesn&#39;t<br>
&gt;work in email, sorry).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;In the meantime, I maintain my view that project.el needs to report uni=
form<br>
&gt;project names and roots for identical projects approached from differen=
t<br>
&gt;places, even if optional.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I just took a look at projectile.el, which I&#39;d never looked at befo=
re<br>
&gt;because I prefer using/improving core features.=C2=A0 It has a longer u=
ser<br>
&gt;history to see what they&#39;ve experienced (and it looks like some of<=
br>
&gt;project.el&#39;s approach is copied almost verbatim e.g., the implement=
ation of<br>
&gt;project-name).=C2=A0 projectile seems to both have users that want syml=
ink<br>
&gt;chasing and those that don&#39;t (looks like ClearCase users--but out o=
f<br>
&gt;necessity not desire?).=C2=A0 As those concerns seem to be project depe=
ndent, we<br>
&gt;could an option that is a list of paths or matchers to include/exclude =
from<br>
&gt;chasing, and also a project root semaphore file or project config as I<=
br>
&gt;suggested in another message in this thread.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I&#39;d enable chasing as my default, opt out in a specific project sho=
uld I<br>
&gt;ever have one that needs it rather than the other way around, and enjoy=
<br>
&gt;project-name and project-root uniformity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;-Stephane<br>
<br>
Eli is right. You want either global path normalization or you don&#39;t. D=
oing it peacemeal at the project level might satisfy some small immediate n=
eed, but it won&#39;t solve the whole problem and will inevitably cause dow=
nstream problems due to the incoherence.<br>
<br>
Also, it&#39;s just not universally true that I want to regard the &quot;re=
al&quot; version of something as its realpath. People use symlinks differen=
tly. In a world in which we had ubiquitous unprivileged bind mounts *and* s=
ymlinks, the realpath as identity concept might be more powerful, but we do=
n&#39;t.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:monospace">Again...I&#39;m not saying universally, I&#39;m =
saying=C2=A0optionally, and preferably flexibly optional.</div></div></div>

--0000000000008accb406312a52c2--

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On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 9:01=E2=80=AFAM Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:

> On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:54=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Colascione <dancol@dancol.=
org>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On March 25, 2025 6:54:34 AM EDT, Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> wrote=
:
>> >On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 10:16=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN=
> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 24/03/2025 17:15, Ship Mints wrote:
>> >> > I'm curious to hear more about why people would object to
>> (project-root
>> >> > project-obj) being canonicalized.  I don't think many people ever
>> >> > manually enter project dirs.  The persisted known projects, I'd
>> think,
>> >> > would also benefit from no duplicates.
>> >>
>> >> I wonder if you yourself would prefer for all buffer-file-name values=
,
>> >> and default-directory values, to be canonicalized as well.
>> >>
>> >> The same reasoning would seem to apply to them too anyway.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Ochen funny. I'll submit a separate patch for that one day (sarcasm
>> doesn't
>> >work in email, sorry).
>> >
>> >In the meantime, I maintain my view that project.el needs to report
>> uniform
>> >project names and roots for identical projects approached from differen=
t
>> >places, even if optional.
>> >
>> >I just took a look at projectile.el, which I'd never looked at before
>> >because I prefer using/improving core features.  It has a longer user
>> >history to see what they've experienced (and it looks like some of
>> >project.el's approach is copied almost verbatim e.g., the implementatio=
n
>> of
>> >project-name).  projectile seems to both have users that want symlink
>> >chasing and those that don't (looks like ClearCase users--but out of
>> >necessity not desire?).  As those concerns seem to be project dependent=
,
>> we
>> >could an option that is a list of paths or matchers to include/exclude
>> from
>> >chasing, and also a project root semaphore file or project config as I
>> >suggested in another message in this thread.
>> >
>> >I'd enable chasing as my default, opt out in a specific project should =
I
>> >ever have one that needs it rather than the other way around, and enjoy
>> >project-name and project-root uniformity.
>> >
>> >-Stephane
>>
>> Eli is right. You want either global path normalization or you don't.
>> Doing it peacemeal at the project level might satisfy some small immedia=
te
>> need, but it won't solve the whole problem and will inevitably cause
>> downstream problems due to the incoherence.
>>
>> Also, it's just not universally true that I want to regard the "real"
>> version of something as its realpath. People use symlinks differently. I=
n a
>> world in which we had ubiquitous unprivileged bind mounts *and* symlinks=
,
>> the realpath as identity concept might be more powerful, but we don't.
>>
>
> Again...I'm not saying universally, I'm saying optionally, and preferably
> flexibly optional.
>

I just got bitten by project-buffers not reporting all the buffers
"strictly" related to the project because project.el thinks there are two
different projects.  I can't imagine that me and the colleagues of mine
that use convenience symlinks are the only ones to see these kinds of
inconsistencies.  Just thought I'd leave a concrete example in this thread.

I've turned my advice back on to force truename canonicalization for the
time being.

--0000000000001c993206312c9170
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 9:01=E2=80=AFAM Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sh=
ipmints@HIDDEN">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On =
Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:54=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Colascione &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:dancol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">dancol@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</sp=
an></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On March 25, 2025 6:54:34 AM EDT, Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmint=
s@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 10:16=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dmitry@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">dmitry@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 24/03/2025 17:15, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I&#39;m curious to hear more about why people would object to=
 (project-root<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; project-obj) being canonicalized.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think man=
y people ever<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; manually enter project dirs.=C2=A0 The persisted known projec=
ts, I&#39;d think,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; would also benefit from no duplicates.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I wonder if you yourself would prefer for all buffer-file-name val=
ues,<br>
&gt;&gt; and default-directory values, to be canonicalized as well.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The same reasoning would seem to apply to them too anyway.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Ochen funny. I&#39;ll submit a separate patch for that one day (sarcasm=
 doesn&#39;t<br>
&gt;work in email, sorry).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;In the meantime, I maintain my view that project.el needs to report uni=
form<br>
&gt;project names and roots for identical projects approached from differen=
t<br>
&gt;places, even if optional.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I just took a look at projectile.el, which I&#39;d never looked at befo=
re<br>
&gt;because I prefer using/improving core features.=C2=A0 It has a longer u=
ser<br>
&gt;history to see what they&#39;ve experienced (and it looks like some of<=
br>
&gt;project.el&#39;s approach is copied almost verbatim e.g., the implement=
ation of<br>
&gt;project-name).=C2=A0 projectile seems to both have users that want syml=
ink<br>
&gt;chasing and those that don&#39;t (looks like ClearCase users--but out o=
f<br>
&gt;necessity not desire?).=C2=A0 As those concerns seem to be project depe=
ndent, we<br>
&gt;could an option that is a list of paths or matchers to include/exclude =
from<br>
&gt;chasing, and also a project root semaphore file or project config as I<=
br>
&gt;suggested in another message in this thread.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I&#39;d enable chasing as my default, opt out in a specific project sho=
uld I<br>
&gt;ever have one that needs it rather than the other way around, and enjoy=
<br>
&gt;project-name and project-root uniformity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;-Stephane<br>
<br>
Eli is right. You want either global path normalization or you don&#39;t. D=
oing it peacemeal at the project level might satisfy some small immediate n=
eed, but it won&#39;t solve the whole problem and will inevitably cause dow=
nstream problems due to the incoherence.<br>
<br>
Also, it&#39;s just not universally true that I want to regard the &quot;re=
al&quot; version of something as its realpath. People use symlinks differen=
tly. In a world in which we had ubiquitous unprivileged bind mounts *and* s=
ymlinks, the realpath as identity concept might be more powerful, but we do=
n&#39;t.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:monospace=
">Again...I&#39;m not saying universally, I&#39;m saying=C2=A0optionally, a=
nd preferably flexibly optional.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">I just got =
bitten by project-buffers not reporting all the buffers &quot;strictly&quot=
; related to the project because project.el=C2=A0thinks there are two diffe=
rent projects.=C2=A0 I can&#39;t imagine that me and the colleagues of mine=
 that use convenience symlinks are the only ones to see these kinds of inco=
nsistencies.=C2=A0 Just thought I&#39;d leave a concrete example in this th=
read.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">I&#39;v=
e turned my advice back on to force truename=C2=A0canonicalization for the =
time being.</div></div></div>

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Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> writes:

> On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:17=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrot=
e:
>
>> > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
>> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 16:25:44 -0400
>> > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
>> >
>> > To concretely demonstrate the differences, the function project-name
>> will return different results for each
>> > project object based on buffers loaded from different paths, despite t=
he
>> projects being equivalent.
>> >
>> > project-name is defined as:
>> >
>> > (file-name-nondirectory (directory-file-name (project-root project)))
>> >
>> > If the root directory is determined to be different, the objects return
>> different names (and different roots).
>>
>> Unless I'm misunderstanding what Daniel wrote, the above is actually a
>> feature from his POV.
>>
>
> Indeed, it might be, but I'm curious what tooling he's using that depends
> on project-root not being "absolute" so to speak, and relative to his
> ambient default-directory.

=F0=9F=A7=A0.

If I have a project under ~/foo/bar/qux/blah and I want to symlink to it
from ~/blah, and I specifically find-file ~/blah/something.txt, then I
want my project to be ~/blah-related, not ~/foo/bar/qux/blah!
The difference matters for things like project-shell.

Isn't the feature you really want a hypothetical
find-file-resolves-symlinks flag that has find-file find the absolute
version of anything visited?  Some people sincerely want this behavior.
Then you'd always be "in" your truename directory in the first place
(modulo other entry points like dired, which you could similarly
modify).

For my use case, I'd actually like to tweak file-truename to report
anything under ~/foo/bar/qux/blah as being under ~/blah, but that's a
separate and low-priority subject.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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--000000000000d1115906312f4e73
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 2:54=E2=80=AFPM Daniel Colascione <dancol@HIDDEN=
g> wrote:

> Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:17=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:
> >
> >> > From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> >> > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 16:25:44 -0400
> >> > Cc: dancol@HIDDEN, 77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmitry@HIDDEN
> >> >
> >> > To concretely demonstrate the differences, the function project-name
> >> will return different results for each
> >> > project object based on buffers loaded from different paths, despite
> the
> >> projects being equivalent.
> >> >
> >> > project-name is defined as:
> >> >
> >> > (file-name-nondirectory (directory-file-name (project-root project))=
)
> >> >
> >> > If the root directory is determined to be different, the objects
> return
> >> different names (and different roots).
> >>
> >> Unless I'm misunderstanding what Daniel wrote, the above is actually a
> >> feature from his POV.
> >>
> >
> > Indeed, it might be, but I'm curious what tooling he's using that depen=
ds
> > on project-root not being "absolute" so to speak, and relative to his
> > ambient default-directory.
>
> =F0=9F=A7=A0.
>
> If I have a project under ~/foo/bar/qux/blah and I want to symlink to it
> from ~/blah, and I specifically find-file ~/blah/something.txt, then I
> want my project to be ~/blah-related, not ~/foo/bar/qux/blah!
> The difference matters for things like project-shell.
>
> Isn't the feature you really want a hypothetical
> find-file-resolves-symlinks flag that has find-file find the absolute
> version of anything visited?  Some people sincerely want this behavior.
> Then you'd always be "in" your truename directory in the first place
> (modulo other entry points like dired, which you could similarly
> modify).
>
> For my use case, I'd actually like to tweak file-truename to report
> anything under ~/foo/bar/qux/blah as being under ~/blah, but that's a
> separate and low-priority subject.
>

That, too, but this all started when I got sufficiently frustrated that
project-name doesn't match for both real and symlinked directory avenues.
Making project-root's match, solves a bunch of other things where
implementations of code, including project-buffers, rely on project-root.

--000000000000d1115906312f4e73
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 2:54=E2=80=AFPM Daniel Colascione &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dancol@HIDDEN">dancol@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex">Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN=
m" target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
&gt; On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 8:17=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN" t=
arget=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 16:25:44 -0400<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dancol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">da=
ncol@HIDDEN</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">77122 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN" target=
=3D"_blank">dmitry@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; To concretely demonstrate the differences, the function proje=
ct-name<br>
&gt;&gt; will return different results for each<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; project object based on buffers loaded from different paths, =
despite the<br>
&gt;&gt; projects being equivalent.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; project-name is defined as:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; (file-name-nondirectory (directory-file-name (project-root pr=
oject)))<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; If the root directory is determined to be different, the obje=
cts return<br>
&gt;&gt; different names (and different roots).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Unless I&#39;m misunderstanding what Daniel wrote, the above is ac=
tually a<br>
&gt;&gt; feature from his POV.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Indeed, it might be, but I&#39;m curious what tooling he&#39;s using t=
hat depends<br>
&gt; on project-root not being &quot;absolute&quot; so to speak, and relati=
ve to his<br>
&gt; ambient default-directory.<br>
<br>
=F0=9F=A7=A0.<br>
<br>
If I have a project under ~/foo/bar/qux/blah and I want to symlink to it<br=
>
from ~/blah, and I specifically find-file ~/blah/something.txt, then I<br>
want my project to be ~/blah-related, not ~/foo/bar/qux/blah!<br>
The difference matters for things like project-shell.<br>
<br>
Isn&#39;t the feature you really want a hypothetical<br>
find-file-resolves-symlinks flag that has find-file find the absolute<br>
version of anything visited?=C2=A0 Some people sincerely want this behavior=
.<br>
Then you&#39;d always be &quot;in&quot; your truename directory in the firs=
t place<br>
(modulo other entry points like dired, which you could similarly<br>
modify).<br>
<br>
For my use case, I&#39;d actually like to tweak file-truename to report<br>
anything under ~/foo/bar/qux/blah as being under ~/blah, but that&#39;s a<b=
r>
separate and low-priority subject.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">That, too, but this all=
 started when I got sufficiently frustrated that project-name doesn&#39;t m=
atch for both real and symlinked directory avenues.=C2=A0 Making project-ro=
ot&#39;s match, solves a bunch of other things where implementations of cod=
e, including project-buffers, rely on project-root.</div></div></div>

--000000000000d1115906312f4e73--

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On 25/03/2025 12:54, Ship Mints wrote:

> Ochen funny. I'll submit a separate patch for that one day (sarcasm 
> doesn't work in email, sorry).

I was not making a joke. Wouldn't it be easier, for your purposes, if 
symlinks were followed right away?

> In the meantime, I maintain my view that project.el needs to report 
> uniform project names and roots for identical projects approached from 
> different places, even if optional.
> 
> I just took a look at projectile.el, which I'd never looked at before 
> because I prefer using/improving core features.  It has a longer user 
> history to see what they've experienced (and it looks like some of 
> project.el's approach is copied almost verbatim e.g., the implementation 
> of project-name).  projectile seems to both have users that want symlink 
> chasing and those that don't (looks like ClearCase users--but out of 
> necessity not desire?).

Does it have that decision configurable as well? Could you point to the 
user option, or whatever else it has for that purpose?

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On 25/03/2025 17:42, Ship Mints wrote:
> I just got bitten by project-buffers not reporting all the buffers 
> "strictly" related to the project because project.el thinks there are 
> two different projects.  I can't imagine that me and the colleagues of 
> mine that use convenience symlinks are the only ones to see these kinds 
> of inconsistencies.  Just thought I'd leave a concrete example in this 
> thread.

Thanks for the example.

> I've turned my advice back on to force truename canonicalization for the 
> time being.

Does that change really help?

In my testing, what it results in, is showing only the buffers belonging 
to the "canonical" project, both when project-switch-buffer is called 
when in it, or when inside a "symlinked" version. Buffers visited from 
the "symlinked" project are not suggested in completion anymore.

When reproducing, try using find-file (C-x C-f) to open the buffers.

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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2025 07:48:41 -0400
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On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 11:11=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:

> On 25/03/2025 17:42, Ship Mints wrote:
> > I just got bitten by project-buffers not reporting all the buffers
> > "strictly" related to the project because project.el thinks there are
> > two different projects.  I can't imagine that me and the colleagues of
> > mine that use convenience symlinks are the only ones to see these kinds
> > of inconsistencies.  Just thought I'd leave a concrete example in this
> > thread.
>
> Thanks for the example.
>
> > I've turned my advice back on to force truename canonicalization for th=
e
> > time being.
>
> Does that change really help?
>

It does for unifying project-name and project-root.

In my testing, what it results in, is showing only the buffers belonging
> to the "canonical" project, both when project-switch-buffer is called
> when in it, or when inside a "symlinked" version. Buffers visited from
> the "symlinked" project are not suggested in completion anymore.
>
> When reproducing, try using find-file (C-x C-f) to open the buffers.
>

Yes, indeed, project-buffers also needs some help.

Thanks for the continuing discussion.

WRT projectile, having only eyeballed the code (I haven't used it), it
seems truename use is not optional.  It looks like
projectile-project-buffer-p is defined in terms of truename
https://github.com/bbatsov/projectile/blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa26=
07d6fe93/projectile.el#L1775,
project-root
caches the truename (but I see a bug in the code which doesn't normalize
dir on the way in so users likely get odd results)
https://github.com/bbatsov/projectile/blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa26=
07d6fe93/projectile.el#L1385,
the file cache is in terms of truename
https://github.com/bbatsov/projectile/blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa26=
07d6fe93/projectile.el#L1262
.

--000000000000d5450606313d6b7d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 11:11=E2=80=AFPM Dmitry Gutov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:dmitry@HIDDEN">dmitry@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex">On 25/03/2025 17:42, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
&gt; I just got bitten by project-buffers not reporting all the buffers <br=
>
&gt; &quot;strictly&quot; related to the project because project.el=C2=A0th=
inks there are <br>
&gt; two different projects.=C2=A0 I can&#39;t imagine that me and the coll=
eagues of <br>
&gt; mine that use convenience symlinks are the only ones to see these kind=
s <br>
&gt; of inconsistencies.=C2=A0 Just thought I&#39;d leave a concrete exampl=
e in this <br>
&gt; thread.<br>
<br>
Thanks for the example.<br>
<br>
&gt; I&#39;ve turned my advice back on to force truename=C2=A0canonicalizat=
ion for the <br>
&gt; time being.<br>
<br>
Does that change really help?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">It does for unifying project=
-name and project-root.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:monospace"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
In my testing, what it results in, is showing only the buffers belonging <b=
r>
to the &quot;canonical&quot; project, both when project-switch-buffer is ca=
lled <br>
when in it, or when inside a &quot;symlinked&quot; version. Buffers visited=
 from <br>
the &quot;symlinked&quot; project are not suggested in completion anymore.<=
br>
<br>
When reproducing, try using find-file (C-x C-f) to open the buffers.<br></b=
lockquote><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></span></div><div>=
<span style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:monospace">Yes, indeed,=C2=A0</span>project-buffers also ne=
ed<span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">s</span>=C2=
=A0<span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"></span>s<s=
pan class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">ome=C2=A0help.<=
/span></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monosp=
ace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"=
>Thanks for the continuing discussion.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:monospace">WRT projectile, having only eyeballed the code (=
I haven&#39;t used it), it seems truename use is not optional.=C2=A0 It loo=
ks like projectile-project-buffer-p is defined in terms of truename=C2=A0<a=
 href=3D"https://github.com/bbatsov/projectile/blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24=
b7ba5aa2607d6fe93/projectile.el#L1775">https://github.com/bbatsov/projectil=
e/blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa2607d6fe93/projectile.el#L1775</a>,=C2=
=A0project-root caches the truename (but I see a bug in the code which does=
n&#39;t normalize dir on the way in so users likely get odd results) <a hre=
f=3D"https://github.com/bbatsov/projectile/blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba=
5aa2607d6fe93/projectile.el#L1385">https://github.com/bbatsov/projectile/bl=
ob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa2607d6fe93/projectile.el#L1385</a>, the fi=
le cache is in terms of truename=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/bbatsov=
/projectile/blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa2607d6fe93/projectile.el#L12=
62">https://github.com/bbatsov/projectile/blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5=
aa2607d6fe93/projectile.el#L1262</a>.=C2=A0<a href=3D"/"></a></div></div></=
div>

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On 26/03/2025 13:48, Ship Mints wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 25, 2025 at 11:11 PM Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN 
> <mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN>> wrote:
> 
>     On 25/03/2025 17:42, Ship Mints wrote:
>      > I just got bitten by project-buffers not reporting all the buffers
>      > "strictly" related to the project because project.el thinks there
>     are
>      > two different projects.  I can't imagine that me and the
>     colleagues of
>      > mine that use convenience symlinks are the only ones to see these
>     kinds
>      > of inconsistencies.  Just thought I'd leave a concrete example in
>     this
>      > thread.
> 
>     Thanks for the example.
> 
>      > I've turned my advice back on to force truename canonicalization
>     for the
>      > time being.
> 
>     Does that change really help?
> 
> 
> It does for unifying project-name and project-root.

Do they have corresponding scenarios that cause confusion?

>     In my testing, what it results in, is showing only the buffers
>     belonging
>     to the "canonical" project, both when project-switch-buffer is called
>     when in it, or when inside a "symlinked" version. Buffers visited from
>     the "symlinked" project are not suggested in completion anymore.
> 
>     When reproducing, try using find-file (C-x C-f) to open the buffers.
> 
> 
> Yes, indeed, project-buffers also needs some help.

We could add a user option for project-buffers specifically, as one 
approach.

> Thanks for the continuing discussion.
> 
> WRT projectile, having only eyeballed the code (I haven't used it), it 
> seems truename use is not optional.  It looks like projectile-project- 
> buffer-p is defined in terms of truename https://github.com/bbatsov/ 
> projectile/blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa2607d6fe93/ 
> projectile.el#L1775 <https://github.com/bbatsov/projectile/ 
> blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa2607d6fe93/ 
> projectile.el#L1775>, project-root caches the truename (but I see a bug 
> in the code which doesn't normalize dir on the way in so users likely 
> get odd results) https://github.com/bbatsov/projectile/ 
> blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa2607d6fe93/projectile.el#L1385 
> <https://github.com/bbatsov/projectile/ 
> blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa2607d6fe93/projectile.el#L1385>, the 
> file cache is in terms of truename https://github.com/bbatsov/ 
> projectile/blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa2607d6fe93/ 
> projectile.el#L1262 <https://github.com/bbatsov/projectile/ 
> blob/55db082cdf7b849335ccf24b7ba5aa2607d6fe93/projectile.el#L1262>. </>

I wonder how it affects Projectile's performance over Tramp.

Last modified: Wed, 26 Mar 2025 13:15:01 UTC

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