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Subject: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are erroneously using margins
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Content-Type: text/plain


The addition of margin-based flymake indicators in Emacs 30 (for use in
terminal frames) also led to a regression: the margin-based indicators
are uglier and should not be used when not necessary, but the code for
determining the default for flymake-indicator-type was wrong and caused
margin indicators to be used sometimes on graphical frames.

The simplest fix, suitable for backporting, is to always default to
fringes.

Please apply the attached patch and backport to Emacs 30.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename=0001-flymake-default-to-displaying-indicators-on-fringes.patch

From 252dd491890323710782d22483bd9cedb9d5b90c Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 11:07:41 -0400
Subject: [PATCH] flymake: default to displaying indicators on fringes

Checking (display-graphic-p) at load time is not a correct way to
determine what kind of indicators to use.  This led to a regression in
Emacs 30, where we used the uglier margin indicators even while on
graphical frames if flymake was loaded before any graphical frame was
created.  For example, users of the emacs daemon who load flymake in
their init.el.

We can re-add this as a per-frame check later.

* lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type): Default to fringes.
---
 lisp/progmodes/flymake.el | 4 +---
 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 3 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index f8a294908ba..29bc3dacdba 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,9 +185,7 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
 
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if (display-graphic-p)
-                                      'fringes
-                                    'margins)
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
 
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
-- 
2.39.3


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To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#77313: Acknowledgement (30.1.50; Regression: flymake
 indicators are erroneously using margins)
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Subject: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are erroneously using margins
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> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 11:13:44 -0400
> From:  Spencer Baugh via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
> 
> The addition of margin-based flymake indicators in Emacs 30 (for use in
> terminal frames) also led to a regression: the margin-based indicators
> are uglier and should not be used when not necessary, but the code for
> determining the default for flymake-indicator-type was wrong and caused
> margin indicators to be used sometimes on graphical frames.

Please tell how that could or did happen.

> The simplest fix, suitable for backporting, is to always default to
> fringes.

Which means there will be no indicators on TTY frames, right?

If you don't like the default for a user option, you can easily
customize it locally.  But why make that change for everyone?  Options
are options so that they could be easily adapted to local needs.

At this point, I see no evidence that any change is needed.  But maybe
if you tell more about the problems you encountered, I will change my
mind.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are erroneously using margins
Resent-From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 11:13:44 -0400
>> From:  Spencer Baugh via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
>> 
>> The addition of margin-based flymake indicators in Emacs 30 (for use in
>> terminal frames) also led to a regression: the margin-based indicators
>> are uglier and should not be used when not necessary, but the code for
>> determining the default for flymake-indicator-type was wrong and caused
>> margin indicators to be used sometimes on graphical frames.
>
> Please tell how that could or did happen.

e.g.:

1. emacs --daemon -l flymake
2. emacsclient -c somefile.el -f flymake-mode
   (opening a graphical frame)

In Emacs 29, this uses fringes for the indicators.

In Emacs 30, this uses margins, which is a substantial regression.

>> The simplest fix, suitable for backporting, is to always default to
>> fringes.
>
> Which means there will be no indicators on TTY frames, right?

There were never indicators in TTY frames in Emacs 29.

In Emacs 30, there will also be no indicators on TTY frames if, for
example, the user does:

1. emacs (opening a graphical Emacs)
2. (require 'flymake)
   The default of flymake-indicator-type is now 'fringes, since display-graphic-p is true.
3. emacsclient -t
   No indicators.

> If you don't like the default for a user option, you can easily
> customize it locally.  But why make that change for everyone?  Options
> are options so that they could be easily adapted to local needs.

Because it's a regression from Emacs 29.

Keep in mind I was the one who, while reviewing the flymake patch adding
margins, suggested that TTY frames automatically default to using
margins.  This code exists because I requested it.  I sadly did not
realize that the behavior was implemented with a buggy default value for
flymake-indicator-type, nor was it caught before release; I only just
now have received direct user complaints about the regression.

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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 12:28:39 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 11:13:44 -0400
> >> From:  Spencer Baugh via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
> >>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
> >> 
> >> The addition of margin-based flymake indicators in Emacs 30 (for use in
> >> terminal frames) also led to a regression: the margin-based indicators
> >> are uglier and should not be used when not necessary, but the code for
> >> determining the default for flymake-indicator-type was wrong and caused
> >> margin indicators to be used sometimes on graphical frames.
> >
> > Please tell how that could or did happen.
> 
> e.g.:
> 
> 1. emacs --daemon -l flymake
> 2. emacsclient -c somefile.el -f flymake-mode
>    (opening a graphical frame)

You can reset the option in after-make-frame-functions.

The daemon is known to be tricky in turning on GUI features; many of
them need to be (re)initialized in after-make-frame-functions.  That
doesn't mean we will be turning off all the features that cater to
text-only frames due to those complications.

> >> The simplest fix, suitable for backporting, is to always default to
> >> fringes.
> >
> > Which means there will be no indicators on TTY frames, right?
> 
> There were never indicators in TTY frames in Emacs 29.

Yes, and Emacs 30 attempted to improve the situation.  Going back is a
step in the wrong direction.

> In Emacs 30, there will also be no indicators on TTY frames if, for
> example, the user does:
> 
> 1. emacs (opening a graphical Emacs)
> 2. (require 'flymake)
>    The default of flymake-indicator-type is now 'fringes, since display-graphic-p is true.
> 3. emacsclient -t
>    No indicators.

I'm okay with making this smarter, but I object to making it dumber.

> > If you don't like the default for a user option, you can easily
> > customize it locally.  But why make that change for everyone?  Options
> > are options so that they could be easily adapted to local needs.
> 
> Because it's a regression from Emacs 29.

Only in certain situations.  The most popular situation where the
users get a TTY frame is when they invoke "emacs -nw", and there we
have an improvement, as intended.

> Keep in mind I was the one who, while reviewing the flymake patch adding
> margins, suggested that TTY frames automatically default to using
> margins.  This code exists because I requested it.  I sadly did not
> realize that the behavior was implemented with a buggy default value for
> flymake-indicator-type, nor was it caught before release; I only just
> now have received direct user complaints about the regression.

That's fine.  We all make mistakes.  But the way to correct those
mistakes is not to go back, it's to go forward.

So I urge you to work on a fix which doesn't disable the indicators in
"emacs -nw", but instead attempts to detect the situations you
describe above and adapt the indicator style to them.

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> Keep in mind I was the one who, while reviewing the flymake patch adding
>> margins, suggested that TTY frames automatically default to using
>> margins.  This code exists because I requested it.  I sadly did not
>> realize that the behavior was implemented with a buggy default value for
>> flymake-indicator-type, nor was it caught before release; I only just
>> now have received direct user complaints about the regression.
>
> That's fine.  We all make mistakes.  But the way to correct those
> mistakes is not to go back, it's to go forward.
>
> So I urge you to work on a fix which doesn't disable the indicators in
> "emacs -nw", but instead attempts to detect the situations you
> describe above and adapt the indicator style to them.

If you insist, I will develop such a fix.  It will be more complex.  But
can we please nevertheless backport it to Emacs 30?  I really want this
regression to be fixed in Emacs 30.2; I've gotten multiple user
complaints about it.

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Subject: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are erroneously using margins
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 12:57:32 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >> Keep in mind I was the one who, while reviewing the flymake patch adding
> >> margins, suggested that TTY frames automatically default to using
> >> margins.  This code exists because I requested it.  I sadly did not
> >> realize that the behavior was implemented with a buggy default value for
> >> flymake-indicator-type, nor was it caught before release; I only just
> >> now have received direct user complaints about the regression.
> >
> > That's fine.  We all make mistakes.  But the way to correct those
> > mistakes is not to go back, it's to go forward.
> >
> > So I urge you to work on a fix which doesn't disable the indicators in
> > "emacs -nw", but instead attempts to detect the situations you
> > describe above and adapt the indicator style to them.
> 
> If you insist, I will develop such a fix.  It will be more complex.  But
> can we please nevertheless backport it to Emacs 30?  I really want this
> regression to be fixed in Emacs 30.2; I've gotten multiple user
> complaints about it.

I'm reluctant to "fix" this by reverting a useful improvement.  So
let's first see the proper solution, which solves the problem for
daemon sessions without reintroducing the problem for -nw sessions,
and let's take it from there.

Thanks.

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>>> Keep in mind I was the one who, while reviewing the flymake patch adding
>>> margins, suggested that TTY frames automatically default to using
>>> margins.  This code exists because I requested it.  I sadly did not
>>> realize that the behavior was implemented with a buggy default value for
>>> flymake-indicator-type, nor was it caught before release; I only just
>>> now have received direct user complaints about the regression.
>>
>> That's fine.  We all make mistakes.  But the way to correct those
>> mistakes is not to go back, it's to go forward.
>>
>> So I urge you to work on a fix which doesn't disable the indicators in
>> "emacs -nw", but instead attempts to detect the situations you
>> describe above and adapt the indicator style to them.
>
> If you insist, I will develop such a fix.  It will be more complex.  But
> can we please nevertheless backport it to Emacs 30?  I really want this
> regression to be fixed in Emacs 30.2; I've gotten multiple user
> complaints about it.

There are many improvements developed in Emacs 31 for flymake margins
in bug#75841 and bug#76254.  But maybe better indeed to change
the default in Emacs 30.2 (with no merge to master).

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>>>> Keep in mind I was the one who, while reviewing the flymake patch adding
>>>> margins, suggested that TTY frames automatically default to using
>>>> margins.  This code exists because I requested it.  I sadly did not
>>>> realize that the behavior was implemented with a buggy default value for
>>>> flymake-indicator-type, nor was it caught before release; I only just
>>>> now have received direct user complaints about the regression.
>>>
>>> That's fine.  We all make mistakes.  But the way to correct those
>>> mistakes is not to go back, it's to go forward.
>>>
>>> So I urge you to work on a fix which doesn't disable the indicators in
>>> "emacs -nw", but instead attempts to detect the situations you
>>> describe above and adapt the indicator style to them.
>>
>> If you insist, I will develop such a fix.  It will be more complex.  But
>> can we please nevertheless backport it to Emacs 30?  I really want this
>> regression to be fixed in Emacs 30.2; I've gotten multiple user
>> complaints about it.
>
> There are many improvements developed in Emacs 31 for flymake margins
> in bug#75841 and bug#76254.  But maybe better indeed to change
> the default in Emacs 30.2 (with no merge to master).

Yes, that's what I was suggesting, not merging to master.

Anyway, how about this patch, which changes the default so that the
fringe vs margin decision is made in a per-frame way?

(Opinions welcome on what to name the new default for
flymake-indicator-type)


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename=0001-flymake-default-to-deciding-indicator-type-per-buffe.patch

From b64253c0f56e3f15f2807654baad462379d1a052 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 16:32:59 -0400
Subject: [PATCH] flymake: default to deciding indicator type per-buffer

Previously, flymake-indicator-type defaults to either fringes or
margins.  But fringes should be used on graphical frames, and
margins on TTY frames, so a single global default is incorrect.
Instead, it should be decided on a per-frame basis.

Now flymake-indicator-type defaults to 'fringes-per-frame, which
uses fringes on (buffers in) graphical frames, margins on
(buffers in) terminal frames.

* lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type): Set to
fringes-per-frame.  (bug#77313)
(flymake--use-fringes-p, flymake--use-margins-p): Add.
(flymake--resize-margins): Check flymake--use-margins-p.
(flymake--highlight-line): Check flymake--use-fringes-p and
flymake--use-margins.
---
 lisp/progmodes/flymake.el | 26 ++++++++++++++++++--------
 1 file changed, 18 insertions(+), 8 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 75ba3efeb65..06001abe156 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,9 +185,7 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
 
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if (display-graphic-p)
-                                      'fringes
-                                    'margins)
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes-per-frame
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
 
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
@@ -199,8 +197,10 @@ flymake-indicator-type
 
 See Info node `Fringes' and Info node `(elisp)Display Margins'."
   :version "30.1"
-  :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
-                 (const :tag "Use Margins "margins)
+  :type '(choice (const :tag "Use fringes on graphical, margins on TTY frames"
+                        fringes-per-frame)
+                 (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
+                 (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
                  (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))
 
 (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
@@ -777,10 +777,20 @@ flymake--indicator-overlay-spec
                       `(:inherit (,indicator-cdr
                                   default)))))))))
 
+(defun flymake--use-fringes-p ()
+  (cl-case flymake-indicator-type
+    (fringes t)
+    ((nil margins) nil)
+    (fringes-per-frame (display-graphic-p))
+    (t t)))
+
+(defun flymake--use-margins-p ()
+  (not (flymake--use-fringes-p)))
+
 (defun flymake--resize-margins (&optional orig-width)
   "Resize current window margins according to `flymake-margin-indicator-position'.
 Return to original margin width if ORIG-WIDTH is non-nil."
-  (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
+  (when (and (flymake--use-margins-p)
              flymake-autoresize-margins)
     (cond
      ((and orig-width flymake--original-margin-width)
@@ -945,9 +955,9 @@ flymake--highlight-line
         (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec
          (flymake--lookup-type-property
           type
-          (cond ((eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)
+          (cond ((flymake--use-fringes-p)
                  'flymake-bitmap)
-                ((eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
+                ((flymake--use-margins-p)
                  'flymake-margin-string))
           (alist-get 'bitmap (alist-get type ; backward compat
                                         flymake-diagnostic-types-alist)))))
-- 
2.39.3


--=-=-=--

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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <ier7c4afc1j.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Spencer Baugh on
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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 16:34:16 -0400
> 
> Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > There are many improvements developed in Emacs 31 for flymake margins
> > in bug#75841 and bug#76254.  But maybe better indeed to change
> > the default in Emacs 30.2 (with no merge to master).
> 
> Yes, that's what I was suggesting, not merging to master.

You are saying that this problem doesn't exist on master?  If so,
perhaps we should consider backporting some of the changes on master
to emacs-30 (if that's feasible)?

> Anyway, how about this patch, which changes the default so that the
> fringe vs margin decision is made in a per-frame way?

I think it's the correct direction, but wouldn't it be easier to make
this a frame parameter instead?  Then the defcustom could be nil by
default, and if it's non-nil, it would override the frame parameter.
The bonus will be that users will be able to define different styles
even for frames of the same type.  Another bonus is that the
frame-parameter machinery is well-tested, so the change will be a
low-risk one.

WDYT?

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 16:34:16 -0400
>> 
>> Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:
>> 
>> > There are many improvements developed in Emacs 31 for flymake margins
>> > in bug#75841 and bug#76254.  But maybe better indeed to change
>> > the default in Emacs 30.2 (with no merge to master).
>> 
>> Yes, that's what I was suggesting, not merging to master.
>
> You are saying that this problem doesn't exist on master?  If so,
> perhaps we should consider backporting some of the changes on master
> to emacs-30 (if that's feasible)?

No, it does exist on master.  I was thinking of having a more
sophisticated fix for master which makes the margin vs fringe
autodetection work reliably.  But for emacs-30 we'd do the simpler thing
of defaulting to 'fringe, to preserve the behavior that was in Emasc 29.

>> Anyway, how about this patch, which changes the default so that the
>> fringe vs margin decision is made in a per-frame way?
>
> I think it's the correct direction, but wouldn't it be easier to make
> this a frame parameter instead?  Then the defcustom could be nil by
> default, and if it's non-nil, it would override the frame parameter.
> The bonus will be that users will be able to define different styles
> even for frames of the same type.  Another bonus is that the
> frame-parameter machinery is well-tested, so the change will be a
> low-risk one.
>
> WDYT?

Note that a nil value for the defcustom is already interpreted as
meaning "show no indicators".

As for adding a frame parameter: that's a good idea, but I think we'd
still want to behave correctly if the frame parameter isn't set.  In the
case where the frame parameter isn't set, I think we'd have the same
logic that exists in my patch right now, where we decide margin vs
fringe based on (display-graphic-p).

So, adding a frame parameter would be useful, but it could be done
later, purely additively.  Which is nice because it keeps this patch
small and more plausible to backport to emacs-30, if we need to do that.

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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 12:53:11 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > I think it's the correct direction, but wouldn't it be easier to make
> > this a frame parameter instead?  Then the defcustom could be nil by
> > default, and if it's non-nil, it would override the frame parameter.
> > The bonus will be that users will be able to define different styles
> > even for frames of the same type.  Another bonus is that the
> > frame-parameter machinery is well-tested, so the change will be a
> > low-risk one.
> >
> > WDYT?
> 
> Note that a nil value for the defcustom is already interpreted as
> meaning "show no indicators".
> 
> As for adding a frame parameter: that's a good idea, but I think we'd
> still want to behave correctly if the frame parameter isn't set.  In the
> case where the frame parameter isn't set, I think we'd have the same
> logic that exists in my patch right now, where we decide margin vs
> fringe based on (display-graphic-p).

Maybe.  Or maybe we should leave the defcustom in its current simple
form.  Because if the default is to have the frame parameter, then
what the defcustom does is much less important.

> So, adding a frame parameter would be useful, but it could be done
> later, purely additively.

I think it should be the main solution for emacs-30, not the backup or
future extension.  Why not?

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
>> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 12:53:11 -0400
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> 
>> > I think it's the correct direction, but wouldn't it be easier to make
>> > this a frame parameter instead?  Then the defcustom could be nil by
>> > default, and if it's non-nil, it would override the frame parameter.
>> > The bonus will be that users will be able to define different styles
>> > even for frames of the same type.  Another bonus is that the
>> > frame-parameter machinery is well-tested, so the change will be a
>> > low-risk one.
>> >
>> > WDYT?
>> 
>> Note that a nil value for the defcustom is already interpreted as
>> meaning "show no indicators".
>> 
>> As for adding a frame parameter: that's a good idea, but I think we'd
>> still want to behave correctly if the frame parameter isn't set.  In the
>> case where the frame parameter isn't set, I think we'd have the same
>> logic that exists in my patch right now, where we decide margin vs
>> fringe based on (display-graphic-p).
>
> Maybe.  Or maybe we should leave the defcustom in its current simple
> form.  Because if the default is to have the frame parameter, then
> what the defcustom does is much less important.

How would we achieve "the default is to have the frame parameter"?  How
would we make sure that the frame parameter exists on frames which were
created before flymake.el is loaded, for example?

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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2025 18:21:38 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> >> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 12:53:11 -0400
> >> 
> >> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >> 
> >> > I think it's the correct direction, but wouldn't it be easier to make
> >> > this a frame parameter instead?  Then the defcustom could be nil by
> >> > default, and if it's non-nil, it would override the frame parameter.
> >> > The bonus will be that users will be able to define different styles
> >> > even for frames of the same type.  Another bonus is that the
> >> > frame-parameter machinery is well-tested, so the change will be a
> >> > low-risk one.
> >> >
> >> > WDYT?
> >> 
> >> Note that a nil value for the defcustom is already interpreted as
> >> meaning "show no indicators".
> >> 
> >> As for adding a frame parameter: that's a good idea, but I think we'd
> >> still want to behave correctly if the frame parameter isn't set.  In the
> >> case where the frame parameter isn't set, I think we'd have the same
> >> logic that exists in my patch right now, where we decide margin vs
> >> fringe based on (display-graphic-p).
> >
> > Maybe.  Or maybe we should leave the defcustom in its current simple
> > form.  Because if the default is to have the frame parameter, then
> > what the defcustom does is much less important.
> 
> How would we achieve "the default is to have the frame parameter"?  How
> would we make sure that the frame parameter exists on frames which were
> created before flymake.el is loaded, for example?

There are several possible way that come to mind.  For example, the
first time Flymake is activated in a frame that doesn't have this
parameter, it (Flymake) will set the parameter with the default value
for the frame type.  Another possibility is to inject the parameter by
default in the respective frame-creation functions.  And there are
probably more ways.  If you evaluate (frame-parameters) in "emacs -Q",
you will see quite a few parameters there already, so evidently we
have a means of pulling that trick.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
>> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2025 18:21:38 -0400
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> 
>> >> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> >> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
>> >> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 12:53:11 -0400
>> >> 
>> >> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> >> 
>> >> > I think it's the correct direction, but wouldn't it be easier to make
>> >> > this a frame parameter instead?  Then the defcustom could be nil by
>> >> > default, and if it's non-nil, it would override the frame parameter.
>> >> > The bonus will be that users will be able to define different styles
>> >> > even for frames of the same type.  Another bonus is that the
>> >> > frame-parameter machinery is well-tested, so the change will be a
>> >> > low-risk one.
>> >> >
>> >> > WDYT?
>> >> 
>> >> Note that a nil value for the defcustom is already interpreted as
>> >> meaning "show no indicators".
>> >> 
>> >> As for adding a frame parameter: that's a good idea, but I think we'd
>> >> still want to behave correctly if the frame parameter isn't set.  In the
>> >> case where the frame parameter isn't set, I think we'd have the same
>> >> logic that exists in my patch right now, where we decide margin vs
>> >> fringe based on (display-graphic-p).
>> >
>> > Maybe.  Or maybe we should leave the defcustom in its current simple
>> > form.  Because if the default is to have the frame parameter, then
>> > what the defcustom does is much less important.
>> 
>> How would we achieve "the default is to have the frame parameter"?  How
>> would we make sure that the frame parameter exists on frames which were
>> created before flymake.el is loaded, for example?
>
> There are several possible way that come to mind.  For example, the
> first time Flymake is activated in a frame that doesn't have this
> parameter, it (Flymake) will set the parameter with the default value
> for the frame type.

Yes, and presumably the default value for the frame type would be
user-configurable via a defcustom, which would have the same logic that
exists in my patch right now, where we can either:

- always use margins
- always use fringes
- decide margins vs fringes based on (display-graphic-p)

So again, we can't leave the defcustom in its current simple state.

> Another possibility is to inject the parameter by default in the
> respective frame-creation functions.

So frame.el and x-win.el (and others) will mention "flymake-indicators"?
That seems like a bad idea.

> And there are probably more ways.  If you evaluate n(frame-parameters)
> in "emacs -Q", you will see quite a few parameters there already, so
> evidently we have a means of pulling that trick.

I don't see any members of (frame-parameters) which wouldn't be OK with
a default of nil.

This seems substantially more complicated than just using the current
simple defcustom.  For another thing, we don't have any customize
support for frame-parameters.  I don't think we should do this, at least
not until some user actually requests it.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Here's an updated version of my previous patch which avoids the need for
a new variant in the defcustom.  When flymake-indicator-type is set to
fringes and we're on a text frame, we simply fall back to using margins.
That allows it to be set to fringes by default without losing
functionality for text terminals; this is how this should have been
implemented originally.

Can we make progress on at least installing this on master, so we can
test it before backporting it to Emacs 30.2?


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename=0001-flymake-fall-back-to-margins-on-text-terminals.patch

From d6122447985b9f1f20b86c3ea714cc447eedcf39 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2025 08:43:37 -0400
Subject: [PATCH] flymake: fall back to margins on text terminals

Previously, flymake-indicator-type defaulted to either fringes
or margins.  But fringes should be used on graphical frames, and
margins on TTY frames.  So default to fringes instead, and
simply fall back to margins automatically on text frames.

* lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type): Set to
fringes.  (bug#77313)
(flymake--use-fringes-p, flymake--use-margins-p): Add.
(flymake--resize-margins): Check flymake--use-margins-p.
(flymake--highlight-line): Check flymake--use-fringes-p and
flymake--use-margins.
---
 lisp/progmodes/flymake.el | 28 ++++++++++++++++++++--------
 1 file changed, 20 insertions(+), 8 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 6cc7e1f7a79..4b40f9b9c31 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,22 +185,22 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
 
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if (display-graphic-p)
-                                      'fringes
-                                    'margins)
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
 
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
-fringes (use fringes) or margins (use margins)
+`fringes' (use fringes) or `margins' (use margins)
 
 Difference between fringes and margin is that fringes support displaying
 bitmaps on graphical displays and margins display text in a blank area
 from current buffer that works in both graphical and text displays.
+Thus, even when `fringes' is selected, margins will still be used on
+text displays.
 
 See Info node `Fringes' and Info node `(elisp)Display Margins'."
   :version "30.1"
   :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
-                 (const :tag "Use Margins "margins)
+                 (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
                  (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))
 
 (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
@@ -752,9 +752,9 @@ flymake--indicator-overlay-spec
   "Return INDICATOR as propertized string to use in error indicators."
   (let* ((indicator (flymake--lookup-type-property
                      type
-                     (cond ((eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)
+                     (cond ((flymake--use-fringes-p)
                             'flymake-bitmap)
-                           ((eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
+                           ((flymake--use-margins-p)
                             'flymake-margin-string))
                      (alist-get 'bitmap (alist-get type ; backward compat
                                                    flymake-diagnostic-types-alist))))
@@ -784,10 +784,22 @@ flymake--indicator-overlay-spec
                                              (format "<%s> <mouse-1>" flymake-margin-indicator-position)
                                              #'flymake-show-buffer-diagnostics-at-event-line))))))))
 
+(defun flymake--use-fringes-p ()
+  (cl-case flymake-indicator-type
+    (fringes (display-graphic-p))
+    ((nil margins) nil)
+    (t t)))
+
+(defun flymake--use-margins-p ()
+  (cl-case flymake-indicator-type
+    (fringes (not (display-graphic-p)))
+    (margins t)
+    (t nil)))
+
 (defun flymake--resize-margins (&optional orig-width)
   "Resize current window margins according to `flymake-margin-indicator-position'.
 Return to original margin width if ORIG-WIDTH is non-nil."
-  (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
+  (when (and (flymake--use-margins-p)
              flymake-autoresize-margins)
     (cond
      ((and orig-width flymake--original-margin-width)
-- 
2.39.3


--=-=-=--

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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2025 08:46:17 -0400
> 
> Here's an updated version of my previous patch which avoids the need for
> a new variant in the defcustom.  When flymake-indicator-type is set to
> fringes and we're on a text frame, we simply fall back to using margins.
> That allows it to be set to fringes by default without losing
> functionality for text terminals; this is how this should have been
> implemented originally.

I think we should also fall back on using margins if the fringes are
disabled on GUI frames.
> -(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if (display-graphic-p)
> -                                      'fringes
> -                                    'margins)
> +(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
>    "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
>  
>  The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
> -fringes (use fringes) or margins (use margins)
> +`fringes' (use fringes) or `margins' (use margins)
>  
>  Difference between fringes and margin is that fringes support displaying
>  bitmaps on graphical displays and margins display text in a blank area
>  from current buffer that works in both graphical and text displays.
> +Thus, even when `fringes' is selected, margins will still be used on
> +text displays.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"...and also when fringes are disabled."

>  
>  See Info node `Fringes' and Info node `(elisp)Display Margins'."
>    :version "30.1"

The :version should change, since the default value changes.

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
>> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2025 08:46:17 -0400
>> 
>> Here's an updated version of my previous patch which avoids the need for
>> a new variant in the defcustom.  When flymake-indicator-type is set to
>> fringes and we're on a text frame, we simply fall back to using margins.
>> That allows it to be set to fringes by default without losing
>> functionality for text terminals; this is how this should have been
>> implemented originally.
>
> I think we should also fall back on using margins if the fringes are
> disabled on GUI frames.

Disabled how?  I don't see a way to disable the fringe.  Do you mean
when the fringe width is set to 0?  So are you suggesting we should call
window-fringes and check the width of the fringe we're going to use?  I
can do that, just want to confirm.

>> -(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if (display-graphic-p)
>> -                                      'fringes
>> -                                    'margins)
>> +(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
>>    "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
>>  
>>  The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
>> -fringes (use fringes) or margins (use margins)
>> +`fringes' (use fringes) or `margins' (use margins)
>>  
>>  Difference between fringes and margin is that fringes support displaying
>>  bitmaps on graphical displays and margins display text in a blank area
>>  from current buffer that works in both graphical and text displays.
>> +Thus, even when `fringes' is selected, margins will still be used on
>> +text displays.
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> "...and also when fringes are disabled."
>
>>  
>>  See Info node `Fringes' and Info node `(elisp)Display Margins'."
>>    :version "30.1"
>
> The :version should change, since the default value changes.

Will update these in the next version.

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN> writes:
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>>> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>>> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
>>> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2025 08:46:17 -0400
>>> 
>>> Here's an updated version of my previous patch which avoids the need for
>>> a new variant in the defcustom.  When flymake-indicator-type is set to
>>> fringes and we're on a text frame, we simply fall back to using margins.
>>> That allows it to be set to fringes by default without losing
>>> functionality for text terminals; this is how this should have been
>>> implemented originally.
>>
>> I think we should also fall back on using margins if the fringes are
>> disabled on GUI frames.
>
> Disabled how?  I don't see a way to disable the fringe.  Do you mean
> when the fringe width is set to 0?  So are you suggesting we should call
> window-fringes and check the width of the fringe we're going to use?  I
> can do that, just want to confirm.

Assuming that's what you mean, here's the updated patch.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename=0001-flymake-fall-back-to-margins-on-text-terminals.patch

From 555ebfec9641d535778dfc6295f4accb70557721 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2025 08:43:37 -0400
Subject: [PATCH] flymake: fall back to margins on text terminals

Previously, flymake-indicator-type defaulted to either fringes
or margins.  But fringes should be used on graphical frames, and
margins on TTY frames.  So default to fringes instead, and
simply fall back to margins automatically on text frames.

* lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type): Set to
fringes.  (bug#77313)
(flymake-mode): Fallback to margins if there's no fringes.
---
 lisp/progmodes/flymake.el | 20 ++++++++++++++------
 1 file changed, 14 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 6cc7e1f7a79..7340fed9be4 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,22 +185,23 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
 
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if (display-graphic-p)
-                                      'fringes
-                                    'margins)
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
 
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
-fringes (use fringes) or margins (use margins)
+the symbol `fringes' (use fringes) or the symbol `margins' (use
+margins).
 
 Difference between fringes and margin is that fringes support displaying
 bitmaps on graphical displays and margins display text in a blank area
 from current buffer that works in both graphical and text displays.
+Thus, even when `fringes' is selected, margins will still be used on
+text displays and also when fringes are disabled.
 
 See Info node `Fringes' and Info node `(elisp)Display Margins'."
-  :version "30.1"
+  :version "31.1"
   :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
-                 (const :tag "Use Margins "margins)
+                 (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
                  (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))
 
 (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
@@ -1439,6 +1440,13 @@ flymake-mode
     (add-hook 'kill-buffer-hook 'flymake-kill-buffer-hook nil t)
     (add-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t t)
 
+    (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)
+               (not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+                      (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
+                      (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))))
+      ;; There are no fringes in the buffer, fallback to margins.
+      (setq-local flymake-indicator-type 'margins))
+
     ;; AutoResize margins.
     (flymake--resize-margins)
 
-- 
2.39.3


--=-=-=--

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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2025 10:56:20 -0400
> 
> Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN> writes:
> > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >
> >> I think we should also fall back on using margins if the fringes are
> >> disabled on GUI frames.
> >
> > Disabled how?  I don't see a way to disable the fringe.  Do you mean
> > when the fringe width is set to 0?  So are you suggesting we should call
> > window-fringes and check the width of the fringe we're going to use?  I
> > can do that, just want to confirm.
> 
> Assuming that's what you mean, here's the updated patch.

Yes, that's what I meant.

> >From 555ebfec9641d535778dfc6295f4accb70557721 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2025 08:43:37 -0400
> Subject: [PATCH] flymake: fall back to margins on text terminals
> 
> Previously, flymake-indicator-type defaulted to either fringes
> or margins.  But fringes should be used on graphical frames, and
> margins on TTY frames.  So default to fringes instead, and
> simply fall back to margins automatically on text frames.

The above needs to be updated to mention the disabled fringes.

> * lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type): Set to
> fringes.  (bug#77313)
> (flymake-mode): Fallback to margins if there's no fringes.

This needs a NEWS entry, but other than that it LGTM.  Let's wait for
a couple of days to let others a chance to comment.

Thanks.

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2025 08:43:37 -0400
>> Subject: [PATCH] flymake: fall back to margins on text terminals
>> 
>> Previously, flymake-indicator-type defaulted to either fringes
>> or margins.  But fringes should be used on graphical frames, and
>> margins on TTY frames.  So default to fringes instead, and
>> simply fall back to margins automatically on text frames.
>
> The above needs to be updated to mention the disabled fringes.

Updated.

>> * lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type): Set to
>> fringes.  (bug#77313)
>> (flymake-mode): Fallback to margins if there's no fringes.
>
> This needs a NEWS entry, but other than that it LGTM.  Let's wait for
> a couple of days to let others a chance to comment.

Added a NEWS entry.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename=0001-flymake-fall-back-to-margins-on-text-terminals.patch

From 792d90c4f01a6b054a4a05ae7dc2598716def7ea Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2025 08:43:37 -0400
Subject: [PATCH] flymake: fall back to margins on text terminals

Previously, flymake-indicator-type defaulted to either fringes
or margins.  But fringes should be used on graphical frames, and
margins on TTY frames.  So default to fringes instead, and
simply fall back to margins automatically on text frames.

* lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type): Set to
fringes.  (bug#77313)
(flymake-mode): Fallback to margins if there's no fringes.
* doc/misc/flymake.texi (Customizable variables): Mention
fallback behavior.
* etc/NEWS: Announce fallback behavior.
---
 doc/misc/flymake.texi     |  3 +++
 etc/NEWS                  |  8 ++++++++
 lisp/progmodes/flymake.el | 20 ++++++++++++++------
 3 files changed, 25 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/misc/flymake.texi b/doc/misc/flymake.texi
index 54835767928..668a72b4cd1 100644
--- a/doc/misc/flymake.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/flymake.texi
@@ -313,6 +313,9 @@ Customizable variables
 errors or warnings.
 Depending on your preference, this can either use @code{fringes} or
 @code{margins} for indicating errors.
+If set to @code{fringes} (the default), it will automatically fall back
+to using margins in windows or frames without fringes, such as text
+terminals.
 
 @item flymake-error-bitmap
 A bitmap used in the fringe to mark lines for which an error has
diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index b2286236d57..123a04527c4 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -1720,6 +1720,14 @@ change their face if the current line exceeds the 'fill-column'.  The
 new face 'display-fill-column-indicator-warning-face' is used to
 highlight the fill-column indicators.  By default this is disabled.
 
+---
+** Flymake
+
+*** Windows without fringes now automatically use margin indicators
+When flymake-indicator-type is set to 'fringes', as is now the default,
+flymake will automatically fall back to using margin indicators in
+windows without fringes, including any window in a text terminal.
+
 
 * New Modes and Packages in Emacs 31.1
 
diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 6cc7e1f7a79..7340fed9be4 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,22 +185,23 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
 
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if (display-graphic-p)
-                                      'fringes
-                                    'margins)
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
 
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
-fringes (use fringes) or margins (use margins)
+the symbol `fringes' (use fringes) or the symbol `margins' (use
+margins).
 
 Difference between fringes and margin is that fringes support displaying
 bitmaps on graphical displays and margins display text in a blank area
 from current buffer that works in both graphical and text displays.
+Thus, even when `fringes' is selected, margins will still be used on
+text displays and also when fringes are disabled.
 
 See Info node `Fringes' and Info node `(elisp)Display Margins'."
-  :version "30.1"
+  :version "31.1"
   :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
-                 (const :tag "Use Margins "margins)
+                 (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
                  (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))
 
 (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
@@ -1439,6 +1440,13 @@ flymake-mode
     (add-hook 'kill-buffer-hook 'flymake-kill-buffer-hook nil t)
     (add-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t t)
 
+    (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)
+               (not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+                      (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
+                      (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))))
+      ;; There are no fringes in the buffer, fallback to margins.
+      (setq-local flymake-indicator-type 'margins))
+
     ;; AutoResize margins.
     (flymake--resize-margins)
 
-- 
2.39.3


--=-=-=--

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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2025 17:50:38 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2025 08:43:37 -0400
> >> Subject: [PATCH] flymake: fall back to margins on text terminals
> >> 
> >> Previously, flymake-indicator-type defaulted to either fringes
> >> or margins.  But fringes should be used on graphical frames, and
> >> margins on TTY frames.  So default to fringes instead, and
> >> simply fall back to margins automatically on text frames.
> >
> > The above needs to be updated to mention the disabled fringes.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> >> * lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type): Set to
> >> fringes.  (bug#77313)
> >> (flymake-mode): Fallback to margins if there's no fringes.
> >
> > This needs a NEWS entry, but other than that it LGTM.  Let's wait for
> > a couple of days to let others a chance to comment.
> 
> Added a NEWS entry.

Thanks, installed on master.

Should we now close this bug?

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On Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:13=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> Thanks, installed on master.
>
> Should we now close this bug?
>

No, we need to backport it to Emacs 30.2 to fix the regression.

>

--0000000000006970bc06329353ec
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_contai=
ner"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:13=E2=80=
=AFAM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thanks, installed on maste=
r.<br>
<br>
Should we now close this bug?<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">No, we need to backport it to Emacs 30.2 to fi=
x the regression.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_qu=
ote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--0000000000006970bc06329353ec--

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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2025 07:43:11 -0400
> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> 
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:13 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> 
>  Thanks, installed on master.
> 
>  Should we now close this bug?
> 
> No, we need to backport it to Emacs 30.2 to fix the regression.

OK, but it cannot be cherry-picked as is, because it includes a NEWS
entry.  So the fix for emacs-30, when we decide to install it, will
need to be a separate commit.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2025 07:43:11 -0400
>> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
>>=20
>> On Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:13=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>=20
>>  Thanks, installed on master.
>>=20
>>  Should we now close this bug?
>>=20
>> No, we need to backport it to Emacs 30.2 to fix the regression.
>
> OK, but it cannot be cherry-picked as is, because it includes a NEWS
> entry.  So the fix for emacs-30, when we decide to install it, will
> need to be a separate commit.

OK, here is a version ready for backporting to emacs-30, with a NEWS
entry appropriate for 30.2.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename=0001-flymake-fall-back-to-margins-on-text-terminals.patch

From 1031bf89a5444ad225b1ef1af64bbb32a2a7512a Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2025 08:43:37 -0400
Subject: [PATCH] flymake: fall back to margins on text terminals

Previously, flymake-indicator-type defaulted to either fringes
or margins.  But fringes should be used on graphical frames, and
margins on TTY frames.  So default to fringes instead, and
simply fall back to margins automatically on text frames.

* lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type): Set to
fringes.  (bug#77313)
(flymake-mode): Fallback to margins if there's no fringes.
* doc/misc/flymake.texi (Customizable variables): Mention
fallback behavior.
* etc/NEWS: Announce fallback behavior.
---
 doc/misc/flymake.texi     |  3 +++
 etc/NEWS                  |  7 +++++++
 lisp/progmodes/flymake.el | 20 ++++++++++++++------
 3 files changed, 24 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/misc/flymake.texi b/doc/misc/flymake.texi
index 54835767928..668a72b4cd1 100644
--- a/doc/misc/flymake.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/flymake.texi
@@ -313,6 +313,9 @@ Customizable variables
 errors or warnings.
 Depending on your preference, this can either use @code{fringes} or
 @code{margins} for indicating errors.
+If set to @code{fringes} (the default), it will automatically fall back
+to using margins in windows or frames without fringes, such as text
+terminals.
 
 @item flymake-error-bitmap
 A bitmap used in the fringe to mark lines for which an error has
diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index dfe4c65f1dd..1915c3170a7 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -30,6 +30,13 @@ with a prefix argument or by typing 'C-u C-h C-n'.
 
 * Changes in Specialized Modes and Packages in Emacs 30.2
 
+** Flymake
+
+*** Windows without fringes now automatically use margin indicators
+When flymake-indicator-type is set to 'fringes', as is now the default,
+flymake will automatically fall back to using margin indicators in
+windows without fringes, including any window in a text terminal.
+
 
 * New Modes and Packages in Emacs 30.2
 
diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index f8a294908ba..08e96565229 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,22 +185,23 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
 
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if (display-graphic-p)
-                                      'fringes
-                                    'margins)
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
 
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
-fringes (use fringes) or margins (use margins)
+the symbol `fringes' (use fringes) or the symbol `margins' (use
+margins).
 
 Difference between fringes and margin is that fringes support displaying
 bitmaps on graphical displays and margins display text in a blank area
 from current buffer that works in both graphical and text displays.
+Thus, even when `fringes' is selected, margins will still be used on
+text displays and also when fringes are disabled.
 
 See Info node `Fringes' and Info node `(elisp)Display Margins'."
-  :version "30.1"
+  :version "31.1"
   :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
-                 (const :tag "Use Margins "margins)
+                 (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
                  (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))
 
 (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
@@ -1393,6 +1394,13 @@ flymake-mode
     (add-hook 'kill-buffer-hook 'flymake-kill-buffer-hook nil t)
     (add-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t t)
 
+    (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)
+               (not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+                      (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
+                      (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))))
+      ;; There are no fringes in the buffer, fallback to margins.
+      (setq-local flymake-indicator-type 'margins))
+
     ;; AutoResize margins.
     (flymake--resize-margins)
 
-- 
2.39.3


--=-=-=--

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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2025 13:57:03 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2025 07:43:11 -0400
> >> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> >> 
> >> On Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:13 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> >> 
> >>  Thanks, installed on master.
> >> 
> >>  Should we now close this bug?
> >> 
> >> No, we need to backport it to Emacs 30.2 to fix the regression.
> >
> > OK, but it cannot be cherry-picked as is, because it includes a NEWS
> > entry.  So the fix for emacs-30, when we decide to install it, will
> > need to be a separate commit.
> 
> OK, here is a version ready for backporting to emacs-30, with a NEWS
> entry appropriate for 30.2.

I don't understand: this seems to be identical to the commit on
master.  Did you show a wrong patch?

What I had in mind was a change only to flymake.el, with "Do not
merge" in the commit log message, since you say this is basically a
bugfix.  I see no reason to announce this in NEWS, let alone with an
entry that is identical to what we have on master.

What am I missing?

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
>> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2025 13:57:03 -0400
>>=20
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> >> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> >> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2025 07:43:11 -0400
>> >> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
>> >>=20
>> >> On Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:13=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:
>> >>=20
>> >>  Thanks, installed on master.
>> >>=20
>> >>  Should we now close this bug?
>> >>=20
>> >> No, we need to backport it to Emacs 30.2 to fix the regression.
>> >
>> > OK, but it cannot be cherry-picked as is, because it includes a NEWS
>> > entry.  So the fix for emacs-30, when we decide to install it, will
>> > need to be a separate commit.
>>=20
>> OK, here is a version ready for backporting to emacs-30, with a NEWS
>> entry appropriate for 30.2.
>
> I don't understand: this seems to be identical to the commit on
> master.  Did you show a wrong patch?
>
> What I had in mind was a change only to flymake.el, with "Do not
> merge" in the commit log message, since you say this is basically a
> bugfix.  I see no reason to announce this in NEWS, let alone with an
> entry that is identical to what we have on master.

I see, that makes sense.  OK, here's a patch like that.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename=0001-Backport-fix-flymake-margin-indicator-fallback-logic.patch

From b111266fdc8411f0852088d9eaec22042e841a04 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 16:22:08 -0400
Subject: [PATCH] Backport: fix flymake margin indicator fallback logic

Backport 861e7f8b60e4bf076bf5991d25a22b3a012746bd to fix bug#77313, so
that fringe indicators are once again reliably the default on frames
that support them.

Do not merge to master.

* lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type)
(flymake-mode): Fix margin fallback behavior.
---
 lisp/progmodes/flymake.el | 20 ++++++++++++++------
 1 file changed, 14 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index f8a294908ba..a9e15fbbb12 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,22 +185,23 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
 
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if (display-graphic-p)
-                                      'fringes
-                                    'margins)
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
 
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
-fringes (use fringes) or margins (use margins)
+the symbol `fringes' (use fringes) or the symbol `margins' (use
+margins).
 
 Difference between fringes and margin is that fringes support displaying
 bitmaps on graphical displays and margins display text in a blank area
 from current buffer that works in both graphical and text displays.
+Thus, even when `fringes' is selected, margins will still be used on
+text displays and also when fringes are disabled.
 
 See Info node `Fringes' and Info node `(elisp)Display Margins'."
-  :version "30.1"
+  :version "30.2"
   :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
-                 (const :tag "Use Margins "margins)
+                 (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
                  (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))
 
 (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
@@ -1393,6 +1394,13 @@ flymake-mode
     (add-hook 'kill-buffer-hook 'flymake-kill-buffer-hook nil t)
     (add-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t t)
 
+    (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)
+               (not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+                      (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
+                      (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))))
+      ;; There are no fringes in the buffer, fallback to margins.
+      (setq-local flymake-indicator-type 'margins))
+
     ;; AutoResize margins.
     (flymake--resize-margins)
 
-- 
2.39.3


--=-=-=--

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


The addition of margin-based flymake indicators in Emacs 30 (for use in
terminal frames) also led to a regression: the margin-based indicators
are uglier and should not be used when not necessary, but the code for
determining the default for flymake-indicator-type was wrong and caused
margin indicators to be used sometimes on graphical frames.

The simplest fix, suitable for backporting, is to always default to
fringes.

Please apply the attached patch and backport to Emacs 30.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename=0001-flymake-default-to-displaying-indicators-on-fringes.patch

From 252dd491890323710782d22483bd9cedb9d5b90c Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 11:07:41 -0400
Subject: [PATCH] flymake: default to displaying indicators on fringes

Checking (display-graphic-p) at load time is not a correct way to
determine what kind of indicators to use.  This led to a regression in
Emacs 30, where we used the uglier margin indicators even while on
graphical frames if flymake was loaded before any graphical frame was
created.  For example, users of the emacs daemon who load flymake in
their init.el.

We can re-add this as a per-frame check later.

* lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type): Default to fringes.
---
 lisp/progmodes/flymake.el | 4 +---
 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 3 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index f8a294908ba..29bc3dacdba 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,9 +185,7 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
 
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if (display-graphic-p)
-                                      'fringes
-                                    'margins)
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
 
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
-- 
2.39.3


--=-=-=--



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Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2025 17:39:08 +0300
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <ier34e68rlf.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Spencer Baugh on
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Subject: Re: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are
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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 16:23:40 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> >> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2025 13:57:03 -0400
> >> 
> >> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >> >> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >> >> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2025 07:43:11 -0400
> >> >> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> >> >> 
> >> >> On Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:13 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> >> >> 
> >> >>  Thanks, installed on master.
> >> >> 
> >> >>  Should we now close this bug?
> >> >> 
> >> >> No, we need to backport it to Emacs 30.2 to fix the regression.
> >> >
> >> > OK, but it cannot be cherry-picked as is, because it includes a NEWS
> >> > entry.  So the fix for emacs-30, when we decide to install it, will
> >> > need to be a separate commit.
> >> 
> >> OK, here is a version ready for backporting to emacs-30, with a NEWS
> >> entry appropriate for 30.2.
> >
> > I don't understand: this seems to be identical to the commit on
> > master.  Did you show a wrong patch?
> >
> > What I had in mind was a change only to flymake.el, with "Do not
> > merge" in the commit log message, since you say this is basically a
> > bugfix.  I see no reason to announce this in NEWS, let alone with an
> > entry that is identical to what we have on master.
> 
> I see, that makes sense.  OK, here's a patch like that.

Thanks, installed on emacs-30, and closing the bug.


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To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#77313: closed (Re: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake
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Your bug report

#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are erroneously using margi=
ns

which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed.

The explanation is attached below, along with your original report.
If you require more details, please reply to 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org.

--=20
77313: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D77313
GNU Bug Tracking System
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To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 16:23:40 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> >> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2025 13:57:03 -0400
> >> 
> >> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >> >> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >> >> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2025 07:43:11 -0400
> >> >> Cc: 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> >> >> 
> >> >> On Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 7:13 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> >> >> 
> >> >>  Thanks, installed on master.
> >> >> 
> >> >>  Should we now close this bug?
> >> >> 
> >> >> No, we need to backport it to Emacs 30.2 to fix the regression.
> >> >
> >> > OK, but it cannot be cherry-picked as is, because it includes a NEWS
> >> > entry.  So the fix for emacs-30, when we decide to install it, will
> >> > need to be a separate commit.
> >> 
> >> OK, here is a version ready for backporting to emacs-30, with a NEWS
> >> entry appropriate for 30.2.
> >
> > I don't understand: this seems to be identical to the commit on
> > master.  Did you show a wrong patch?
> >
> > What I had in mind was a change only to flymake.el, with "Do not
> > merge" in the commit log message, since you say this is basically a
> > bugfix.  I see no reason to announce this in NEWS, let alone with an
> > entry that is identical to what we have on master.
> 
> I see, that makes sense.  OK, here's a patch like that.

Thanks, installed on emacs-30, and closing the bug.


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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


The addition of margin-based flymake indicators in Emacs 30 (for use in
terminal frames) also led to a regression: the margin-based indicators
are uglier and should not be used when not necessary, but the code for
determining the default for flymake-indicator-type was wrong and caused
margin indicators to be used sometimes on graphical frames.

The simplest fix, suitable for backporting, is to always default to
fringes.

Please apply the attached patch and backport to Emacs 30.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename=0001-flymake-default-to-displaying-indicators-on-fringes.patch

From 252dd491890323710782d22483bd9cedb9d5b90c Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 11:07:41 -0400
Subject: [PATCH] flymake: default to displaying indicators on fringes

Checking (display-graphic-p) at load time is not a correct way to
determine what kind of indicators to use.  This led to a regression in
Emacs 30, where we used the uglier margin indicators even while on
graphical frames if flymake was loaded before any graphical frame was
created.  For example, users of the emacs daemon who load flymake in
their init.el.

We can re-add this as a per-frame check later.

* lisp/progmodes/flymake.el (flymake-indicator-type): Default to fringes.
---
 lisp/progmodes/flymake.el | 4 +---
 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 3 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index f8a294908ba..29bc3dacdba 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,9 +185,7 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
 
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if (display-graphic-p)
-                                      'fringes
-                                    'margins)
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
 
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
-- 
2.39.3


--=-=-=--



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--0000000000008ee7c3064084f19b
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unarchive 77313
thanks

I noticed that the bug was archived so probably no-one is reading the
messages
but me and Spencer.

Let's hope this unarchives it.

On Mon, Sep 29, 2025 at 4:36=E2=80=AFPM Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@g=
mail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Something doesn't add up.  If I run this one-liner with an emacs 30, I
get an error indication regardless of TTY or GUI emacs:
>
>    emacs -Q -nw -f flymake-mode --eval '(insert "\nboo!")'
>    emacs -Q        -f flymake-mode --eval '(insert "\nboo!")'
>
> If I do the same after your commit (and I add `--eval (setq
trusted-content :all)` for demo purposes) I only see the indicator in the
second case.
>
> So what am I missing??  What version are you using?
>
>> I agree that avoiding regressions should take priority.  That's why I
made this commit, because the existing fallback logic caused regressions,
by breaking the indicators on graphical displays.
> Perhaps in some corner cases, but what I'm showing you above isn't a
corner case.  It's the most common use case for Flymake, turning it on.

--0000000000008ee7c3064084f19b
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<div dir=3D"ltr">unarchive 77313<br>thanks<br><br>I noticed that the bug wa=
s archived so probably no-one is reading the messages <br>but me and Spence=
r.<br><br>Let&#39;s hope this unarchives it.<br><br>On Mon, Sep 29, 2025 at=
 4:36=E2=80=AFPM Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:joaotavora@gma=
il.com">joaotavora@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Somethi=
ng doesn&#39;t add up.=C2=A0 If I run this one-liner with an emacs 30, I ge=
t an error indication regardless of TTY or GUI emacs:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0emacs -Q -nw -f flymake-mode --eval &#39;(insert &quot;\nboo!&quo=
t;)&#39; <br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0emacs -Q =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-f flyma=
ke-mode --eval &#39;(insert &quot;\nboo!&quot;)&#39;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; If I d=
o the same after your commit (and I add `--eval (setq trusted-content :all)=
` for demo purposes) I only see the indicator in the second case.<br>&gt;<b=
r>&gt; So what am I missing??=C2=A0 What version are you using?<br>&gt; =C2=
=A0<br>&gt;&gt; I agree that avoiding regressions should take priority.=C2=
=A0 That&#39;s why I made this commit, because the existing fallback logic =
caused regressions, by breaking the indicators on graphical displays.<br>&g=
t; Perhaps in some corner cases, but what I&#39;m showing you above isn&#39=
;t a corner case.=C2=A0 It&#39;s the most common use case for Flymake, turn=
ing it on.<br><br></div>

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Once again, just in case the previous mail also didn't make its way to the
bug thread,
here's a summary.

Spencer's commit in the context of this bug#77313 made it so that Flymake
margin indicators for TTY emacs no longer appear without explicit
customization by the user.

I gather this was done to cover off some situation where the calculation
of the default value of a customization interface was being done
incorrectly.

According to my testing:

* in Emacs 30 both these invocations immediately show indicators:

emacs -Q -nw -f flymake-mode --eval '(insert "\nboo!")'  # (TTY Emacs)
emacs -Q        -f flymake-mode --eval '(insert "\nboo!")' # (window-system
emacs)

* in Emacs 31 *only* the second one shows indicators:

emacs -Q -nw --eval (setq trusted-content :all) -f flymake-mode --eval
'(insert "\nboo!")'  # (TTY Emacs)
emacs -Q        --eval (setq trusted-content :all) -f flymake-mode --eval
'(insert "\nboo!")' # (window-system emacs)

(the "trusted-content" thing is unrelated to this report)

Anyway, I think this is a regression. If there was a bug to fix in a corner
case,
it should not be fixed at the expense of the introduction of another bug
in a much more common use case.

Jo=C3=A3o

On Mon, Oct 6, 2025 at 11:27=E2=80=AFPM Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@g=
mail.com> wrote:

> unarchive 77313
> thanks
>
> I noticed that the bug was archived so probably no-one is reading the
> messages
> but me and Spencer.
>
> Let's hope this unarchives it.
>
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2025 at 4:36=E2=80=AFPM Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora=
@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Something doesn't add up.  If I run this one-liner with an emacs 30, I
> get an error indication regardless of TTY or GUI emacs:
> >
> >    emacs -Q -nw -f flymake-mode --eval '(insert "\nboo!")'
> >    emacs -Q        -f flymake-mode --eval '(insert "\nboo!")'
> >
> > If I do the same after your commit (and I add `--eval (setq
> trusted-content :all)` for demo purposes) I only see the indicator in the
> second case.
> >
> > So what am I missing??  What version are you using?
> >
> >> I agree that avoiding regressions should take priority.  That's why I
> made this commit, because the existing fallback logic caused regressions,
> by breaking the indicators on graphical displays.
> > Perhaps in some corner cases, but what I'm showing you above isn't a
> corner case.  It's the most common use case for Flymake, turning it on.
>
>

--=20
Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora

--0000000000005c42c1064085048b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Once again, just in case the previous mail also didn&=
#39;t make its way to the bug thread,</div><div>here&#39;s a summary.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Spencer&#39;s commit in the context of this bug#77313 m=
ade it so that Flymake=C2=A0</div><div>margin indicators for TTY emacs no l=
onger appear without explicit=C2=A0</div><div>customization by the user.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>I gather this was done to cover off some situation w=
here the calculation</div><div>of the default value of a customization inte=
rface was being done incorrectly.</div><div><br></div><div>According to my =
testing:</div><div><br></div><div>* in Emacs 30 both these invocations imme=
diately show indicators:</div><div><br></div><div><div>emacs -Q -nw -f flym=
ake-mode --eval &#39;(insert &quot;\nboo!&quot;)&#39;=C2=A0 # (TTY Emacs)</=
div><div>emacs -Q=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -f flymake-mode --eval &#39;(i=
nsert &quot;\nboo!&quot;)&#39; # (window-system emacs)</div><div><br></div>=
<div>* in Emacs 31 *only* the second one shows indicators:</div></div><div>=
<div><br></div><div><div>emacs -Q -nw=C2=A0--eval (setq trusted-content :al=
l) -f flymake-mode --eval &#39;(insert &quot;\nboo!&quot;)&#39;=C2=A0 # (TT=
Y Emacs)</div><div>emacs -Q=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0--eval (setq tr=
usted-content :all) -f flymake-mode --eval &#39;(insert &quot;\nboo!&quot;)=
&#39; # (window-system emacs)</div><div><br></div><div>(the &quot;trusted-c=
ontent&quot; thing is unrelated to this report)</div><div><br></div><div>An=
yway, I think this is a regression. If there was a bug to fix in a corner c=
ase,=C2=A0</div><div>it should not be fixed at the expense of the introduct=
ion of another bug=C2=A0</div><div>in a much more common use case.</div><di=
v><br></div><div></div><div>Jo=C3=A3o</div></div></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr=
">On Mon, Oct 6, 2025 at 11:27=E2=80=AFPM Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:joaotavora@HIDDEN">joaotavora@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">unarc=
hive 77313<br>thanks<br><br>I noticed that the bug was archived so probably=
 no-one is reading the messages <br>but me and Spencer.<br><br>Let&#39;s ho=
pe this unarchives it.<br><br>On Mon, Sep 29, 2025 at 4:36=E2=80=AFPM Jo=C3=
=A3o T=C3=A1vora &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:joaotavora@HIDDEN" target=3D"_bla=
nk">joaotavora@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Something d=
oesn&#39;t add up.=C2=A0 If I run this one-liner with an emacs 30, I get an=
 error indication regardless of TTY or GUI emacs:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0emacs -Q -nw -f flymake-mode --eval &#39;(insert &quot;\nboo!&quot;)&=
#39; <br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0emacs -Q =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-f flymake-m=
ode --eval &#39;(insert &quot;\nboo!&quot;)&#39;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; If I do th=
e same after your commit (and I add `--eval (setq trusted-content :all)` fo=
r demo purposes) I only see the indicator in the second case.<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t; So what am I missing??=C2=A0 What version are you using?<br>&gt; =C2=A0<=
br>&gt;&gt; I agree that avoiding regressions should take priority.=C2=A0 T=
hat&#39;s why I made this commit, because the existing fallback logic cause=
d regressions, by breaking the indicators on graphical displays.<br>&gt; Pe=
rhaps in some corner cases, but what I&#39;m showing you above isn&#39;t a =
corner case.=C2=A0 It&#39;s the most common use case for Flymake, turning i=
t on.<br><br></div>
</blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><br><span class=3D"gmail_si=
gnature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">Jo=
=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora</div>

--0000000000005c42c1064085048b--

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> Spencer's commit in the context of this bug#77313 made it so that Flymake 
> margin indicators for TTY emacs no longer appear without explicit 
> customization by the user.
>
> I gather this was done to cover off some situation where the calculation
> of the default value of a customization interface was being done
> incorrectly.

The problem is that it's impossible to cover 100% of use cases.

For example, such case when flymake-mode is enabled in a buffer
on a graphical display with fridges, then the same buffer is displayed
on a TTY frame - all indicators will disappear.

Therefore some compromise is unavoidable.

I recommend to push Spencer's patch that introduces the value
'fringes-per-frame' for 'flymake-indicator-type'.  Only better
would be to check it in 'flymake-mode' like in the patch
with 'window-fringes' that was reverted.

Another improvement for that patch would be to support
a predicate function for 'flymake-indicator-type'.
Then if someone needs to additionally check for 'window-fringes'
it will be possible to do this in a custom function.

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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Spencer's commit in the context of this bug#77313 made it so that Flymake 
>> margin indicators for TTY emacs no longer appear without explicit 
>> customization by the user.
>>
>> I gather this was done to cover off some situation where the calculation
>> of the default value of a customization interface was being done
>> incorrectly.
>
> The problem is that it's impossible to cover 100% of use cases.
>
> For example, such case when flymake-mode is enabled in a buffer
> on a graphical display with fridges, then the same buffer is displayed
> on a TTY frame - all indicators will disappear.
>
> Therefore some compromise is unavoidable.

Yes.

Specifically, I think what we need is some way to have "per-window" text
displayed in the margins.

Then flymake could add text to the margins which is only displayed in
windows in terminal frames.  And also only widen the margins in such
frames, too.

I'm not sure if this is possible right now, though.  Maybe this needs an
enhancement to the low-level display of margins?

If we did that, then we could wrap it in some new higher-level functions
for managing margins.  This would also be useful for diff-hl (cc'd
Dmitry) which also started off only supporting fringes and recently
added support for margins for the sake of tty frames, and probably will
run into the same issues that flymake did.

> I recommend to push Spencer's patch that introduces the value
> 'fringes-per-frame' for 'flymake-indicator-type'.  Only better
> would be to check it in 'flymake-mode' like in the patch
> with 'window-fringes' that was reverted.

Do you mean the one which check display-graphic-p?  Yes, I think
checking display-graphic-p in flymake-mode would lead to OK results
(better than the reverted patch which checks window-fringes, which very
often doesn't work since it depends on the selected window).  It still
unfortunately depends on the selected frame, so is broken during daemon
startup or when a terminal frame is opened for a multi-frame Emacs.

> Another improvement for that patch would be to support
> a predicate function for 'flymake-indicator-type'.
> Then if someone needs to additionally check for 'window-fringes'
> it will be possible to do this in a custom function.

Eh... such a predicate is basically impossible to write correctly, so I
think that's not necessary.  Really we should just get it right in core
Emacs.

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> Cc: dmitry@HIDDEN,
>  Jo�o T�vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>,
>  77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2025 13:45:47 -0400
> From:  Spencer Baugh via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
> 
> Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >> Spencer's commit in the context of this bug#77313 made it so that Flymake 
> >> margin indicators for TTY emacs no longer appear without explicit 
> >> customization by the user.
> >>
> >> I gather this was done to cover off some situation where the calculation
> >> of the default value of a customization interface was being done
> >> incorrectly.
> >
> > The problem is that it's impossible to cover 100% of use cases.
> >
> > For example, such case when flymake-mode is enabled in a buffer
> > on a graphical display with fridges, then the same buffer is displayed
> > on a TTY frame - all indicators will disappear.
> >
> > Therefore some compromise is unavoidable.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Specifically, I think what we need is some way to have "per-window" text
> displayed in the margins.

Can Flymake use per-window overlays?  Then each window could have the
margin display specific to that window.

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> Cc: dmitry@HIDDEN,
>  Jo�o T�vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>,
>  77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2025 13:45:47 -0400
> From:  Spencer Baugh via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
> 
> > I recommend to push Spencer's patch that introduces the value
> > 'fringes-per-frame' for 'flymake-indicator-type'.  Only better
> > would be to check it in 'flymake-mode' like in the patch
> > with 'window-fringes' that was reverted.
> 
> Do you mean the one which check display-graphic-p?  Yes, I think
> checking display-graphic-p in flymake-mode would lead to OK results
> (better than the reverted patch which checks window-fringes, which very
> often doesn't work since it depends on the selected window).  It still
> unfortunately depends on the selected frame, so is broken during daemon
> startup or when a terminal frame is opened for a multi-frame Emacs.

The function display-graphic-p accepts an argument, which could be a
frame.  So it is not limited to the selected frame.

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>> Specifically, I think what we need is some way to have "per-window" text
>> displayed in the margins.
>>
>> Then flymake could add text to the margins which is only displayed in
>> windows in terminal frames.  And also only widen the margins in such
>> frames, too.
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is possible right now, though.  Maybe this needs an
>> enhancement to the low-level display of margins?
>
> Can Flymake use per-window overlays?  Then each window could have the
> margin display specific to that window.

Adding per-window overlays will limit usability of Flymake that will
hide indicators in the same buffer displayed in other windows.

While as the same time it doesn't solve the original problem
because after hiding margin indicators on a graphical display,
it can't automatically enable fringe indicators.

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> From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>,  dmitry@HIDDEN,
>   joaotavora@HIDDEN,  77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2025 09:49:57 +0300
> 
> >> Specifically, I think what we need is some way to have "per-window" text
> >> displayed in the margins.
> >>
> >> Then flymake could add text to the margins which is only displayed in
> >> windows in terminal frames.  And also only widen the margins in such
> >> frames, too.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure if this is possible right now, though.  Maybe this needs an
> >> enhancement to the low-level display of margins?
> >
> > Can Flymake use per-window overlays?  Then each window could have the
> > margin display specific to that window.
> 
> Adding per-window overlays will limit usability of Flymake that will
> hide indicators in the same buffer displayed in other windows.

No, it will need that Flymake defines a (possibly) slightly different
overlay for each window of those which display a buffer.

> While as the same time it doesn't solve the original problem
> because after hiding margin indicators on a graphical display,
> it can't automatically enable fringe indicators.

Sorry, I don't think I understand the scenario.  Can you describe this
in more detail?  Why would hiding margin indicators require
automatically enabling fringe indicators?

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On Wed, Oct 8, 2025, 17:10 Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> wrote:

> I gather this was done to cover off some situation where the calculation
> > of the default value of a customization interface was being done
> > incorrectly.
>
> The problem is that it's impossible to cover 100% of use cases.
>

Fair enough. Then we should think about what percentage we want to cover,
or what areas. Currently the "launch TTY Emacs, then enable Flymake" use
case is 0% covered which I think is pretty bad. Not only what, it's very
surprising regression  to Emacs 30.1, a released version.

I recommend to push Spencer's patch that introduces the value
> 'fringes-per-frame' for 'flymake-indicator-type'.  Only better
> would be to check it in 'flymake-mode' like in the patch
> with 'window-fringes' that was reverted.
>

Fine with me as long as it re-enables the above use case (and doesn't
blatantly break another basic use case).

Other more esoteric use cases, such as starting headless then making a TTY
frame, then a windowed frame, etc, can afford to be "buggy", if indeed it
is impossible to have 100% accuracy. That's where the compromise should
happen. It should not happen in the most basic of cases, even less so when
regressive behaviour is at stake.

Let's have the very first frame created make the decision, for example,
_regardless_ of whether Flymake was loaded or enabled when that happened.
This will cover 95% of cases, I estimate.

Jo=C3=A3o

--0000000000003e2e9b0640b55d04
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto">On Wed, Oct 8, 2025, 17=
:10 Juri Linkov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:juri@HIDDEN">juri@HIDDEN</a>&=
gt; wrote:</div><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container" dir=3D"auto"><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
&gt; I gather this was done to cover off some situation where the calculati=
on<br>
&gt; of the default value of a customization interface was being done<br>
&gt; incorrectly.<br>
<br>
The problem is that it&#39;s impossible to cover 100% of use cases.<br></bl=
ockquote></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Fair enough. T=
hen we should think about what percentage we want to cover, or what areas. =
Currently the &quot;launch TTY Emacs, then enable Flymake&quot; use case is=
 0% covered which I think is pretty bad. Not only what, it&#39;s very surpr=
ising regression=C2=A0 to Emacs 30.1, a released version.</div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container" dir=3D"aut=
o"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I recommend to push Spencer&#39;s patch that introduces the value<br>
&#39;fringes-per-frame&#39; for &#39;flymake-indicator-type&#39;.=C2=A0 Onl=
y better<br>
would be to check it in &#39;flymake-mode&#39; like in the patch<br>
with &#39;window-fringes&#39; that was reverted.<br></blockquote></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Fine =
with me as long as it re-enables the above use case (and doesn&#39;t blatan=
tly break another basic use case).</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">Other more esoteric use cases, such as starting headless then ma=
king a TTY frame, then a windowed frame, etc, can afford to be &quot;buggy&=
quot;, if indeed it is impossible to have 100% accuracy. That&#39;s where t=
he compromise should happen. It should not happen in the most basic of case=
s, even less so when regressive behaviour is at stake.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Let&#39;s have the very first frame created =
make the decision, for example, _regardless_ of whether Flymake was loaded =
or enabled when that happened. This will cover 95% of cases, I estimate.</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Jo=C3=A3o</div></div>

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>> > Can Flymake use per-window overlays?  Then each window could have the
>> > margin display specific to that window.
>> 
>> Adding per-window overlays will limit usability of Flymake that will
>> hide indicators in the same buffer displayed in other windows.
>
> No, it will need that Flymake defines a (possibly) slightly different
> overlay for each window of those which display a buffer.

For example, the user splits the selected window, so that
two windows are displaying the same buffer.  How can
Flymake define a different overlay for the new window?

>> While as the same time it doesn't solve the original problem
>> because after hiding margin indicators on a graphical display,
>> it can't automatically enable fringe indicators.
>
> Sorry, I don't think I understand the scenario.  Can you describe this
> in more detail?  Why would hiding margin indicators require
> automatically enabling fringe indicators?

For example, the user enables flymake-mode on a TTY frame,
then opens the same buffer on a graphical frame.
How can the existing buffer switch from displaying
the indicators in margins to displaying the indicators
in fringes?

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From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>>> > Can Flymake use per-window overlays?  Then each window could have the
>>> > margin display specific to that window.
>>> 
>>> Adding per-window overlays will limit usability of Flymake that will
>>> hide indicators in the same buffer displayed in other windows.
>>
>> No, it will need that Flymake defines a (possibly) slightly different
>> overlay for each window of those which display a buffer.
>
> For example, the user splits the selected window, so that
> two windows are displaying the same buffer.  How can
> Flymake define a different overlay for the new window?

Yes, this is the core question.

>>> While as the same time it doesn't solve the original problem
>>> because after hiding margin indicators on a graphical display,
>>> it can't automatically enable fringe indicators.
>>
>> Sorry, I don't think I understand the scenario.  Can you describe this
>> in more detail?  Why would hiding margin indicators require
>> automatically enabling fringe indicators?
>
> For example, the user enables flymake-mode on a TTY frame,
> then opens the same buffer on a graphical frame.
> How can the existing buffer switch from displaying
> the indicators in margins to displaying the indicators
> in fringes?

This part is actually not so hard.  The problem has two halves:

A. in a graphical frame, we want to display indicators in fringes
B. in a graphical frame, we want to not display indicators in margins

A is actually easy: we can simply unconditionally have fringe indicators
in all frames, because fringes aren't displayed anyway in TTY frames.
No need to turn fringe indicators on and off.

B is the harder one.  Not sure how to do it, but perhaps there's a
solution with overlay tricks.

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Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:

> On Wed, Oct 8, 2025, 17:10 Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>  > I gather this was done to cover off some situation where the calculati=
on
>  > of the default value of a customization interface was being done
>  > incorrectly.
>
>  The problem is that it's impossible to cover 100% of use cases.
>
> Fair enough. Then we should think about what percentage we want to cover,=
 or what areas. Currently the "launch TTY Emacs, then
> enable Flymake" use case is 0% covered which I think is pretty bad. Not o=
nly what, it's very surprising regression  to Emacs 30.1, a
> released version.
>
>  I recommend to push Spencer's patch that introduces the value
>  'fringes-per-frame' for 'flymake-indicator-type'.  Only better
>  would be to check it in 'flymake-mode' like in the patch
>  with 'window-fringes' that was reverted.
>
> Fine with me as long as it re-enables the above use case (and doesn't bla=
tantly break another basic use case).
>
> Other more esoteric use cases, such as starting headless then making a TT=
Y frame, then a windowed frame, etc, can afford to be
> "buggy", if indeed it is impossible to have 100% accuracy. That's where t=
he compromise should happen. It should not happen in the
> most basic of cases, even less so when regressive behaviour is at stake.
>
> Let's have the very first frame created make the decision, for example, _=
regardless_ of whether Flymake was loaded or enabled
> when that happened. This will cover 95% of cases, I estimate.

Alas, that fails if the user uses "emacs --daemon" and graphical frames,
because the first (pseudo-)frame created is non-graphical.  I think that
is a pretty common configuration.

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On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 9:12=E2=80=AFPM Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN=
> wrote:

>
> > Let's have the very first frame created make the decision, for example,
> _regardless_ of whether Flymake was loaded or enabled
> > when that happened. This will cover 95% of cases, I estimate.
>
> Alas, that fails if the user uses "emacs --daemon" and graphical frames,
> because the first (pseudo-)frame created is non-graphical.  I think that
> is a pretty common configuration.
>

I use that setup! No idea what a pseudo-frame is, but see the patch
after my sig. It works how I envisioned it for these 4 cases.

emacs -Q -nw
emacs -Q
emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -c
emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -tty

I'm sure you guys can implement something better as long as
you know where you want to draw the unavoidable (according
to you) compromise.  I think the first ever frame the user sees is
a good such place. There are others more sophisticated, probably.
The current situation, OTOH, is a bit untenable IMO.

Jo=C3=A3o

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 8b6d477c385..80a5beeeead 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,7 +185,7 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
  (const right-fringe)
  (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))

-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if window-system 'fringes 'margins)
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.

 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
@@ -202,6 +202,18 @@ flymake-indicator-type
                  (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
                  (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))

+
+;;;###autoload
+(progn
+  (defun flymake--set-flymake-indicator-type (frame)
+    (setq flymake-indicator-type
+          (if (alist-get 'tty (frame-parameters frame))
+              'margins 'fringes))
+    (remove-hook 'after-make-frame-functions
+                 'flymake--set-flymake-indicator-type))
+  (add-hook 'after-make-frame-functions
+            'flymake--set-flymake-indicator-type))
+
 (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
   '((error "!!" compilation-error)
     (warning "!" compilation-warning)

--00000000000041c4210640c12153
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 9:12=E2=80=AFPM Sp=
encer Baugh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sbaugh@HIDDEN">sbaugh@janestreet.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
&gt; Let&#39;s have the very first frame created make the decision, for exa=
mple, _regardless_ of whether Flymake was loaded or enabled<br>
&gt; when that happened. This will cover 95% of cases, I estimate.<br>
<br>
Alas, that fails if the user uses &quot;emacs --daemon&quot; and graphical =
frames,<br>
because the first (pseudo-)frame created is non-graphical.=C2=A0 I think th=
at<br>
is a pretty common configuration.<br>
</blockquote></div><div><br></div><div></div><div></div><div>I use that set=
up! No idea what a pseudo-frame is, but see the patch=C2=A0</div><div>after=
 my sig. It works how I envisioned it for these 4 cases.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>emacs -Q -nw</div><div>emacs -Q</div><div>emacs -Q --daemon, followe=
d by a first emacsclient -c</div><div>emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a firs=
t emacsclient -tty</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m sure you guys can imple=
ment something better as long as</div><div>you know where you want to draw =
the unavoidable (according</div><div>to you) compromise.=C2=A0 I think the =
first ever frame the user sees is=C2=A0</div><div>a=C2=A0good such place. T=
here are others more sophisticated, probably.</div><div>The current=C2=A0si=
tuation, OTOH, is a bit untenable IMO.</div><div><br></div><div>Jo=C3=A3o</=
div><div><br>diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymak=
e.el<br>index 8b6d477c385..80a5beeeead 100644<br>--- a/lisp/progmodes/flyma=
ke.el<br>+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el<br>@@ -185,7 +185,7 @@ flymake-fri=
nge-indicator-position<br>=C2=A0		 (const right-fringe)<br>=C2=A0		 (const =
:tag &quot;No fringe indicators&quot; nil)))<br>=C2=A0<br>-(defcustom flyma=
ke-indicator-type &#39;fringes<br>+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type (if wi=
ndow-system &#39;fringes &#39;margins)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;Indicate which=
 indicator type to use for display errors.<br>=C2=A0<br>=C2=A0The value can=
 be nil (don&#39;t indicate errors but just highlight them),<br>@@ -202,6 +=
202,18 @@ flymake-indicator-type<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (const :tag &quot;Use Margins&quot; margins)<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (const :tag =
&quot;No indicators&quot; nil)))<br>=C2=A0<br>+<br>+;;;###autoload<br>+(pro=
gn<br>+ =C2=A0(defun flymake--set-flymake-indicator-type (frame)<br>+ =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0(setq flymake-indicator-type<br>+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0(if (alist-get &#39;tty (frame-parameters frame))<br>+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&#39;margins &#39;fringes))<br>+ =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0(remove-hook &#39;after-make-frame-functions<br>+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &#39;flymake--set-flymake-indicator-type=
))<br>+ =C2=A0(add-hook &#39;after-make-frame-functions<br>+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&#39;flymake--set-flymake-indicator-type))<br>+<=
br>=C2=A0(defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&#39;(=
(error &quot;!!&quot; compilation-error)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(warning &q=
uot;!&quot; compilation-warning)</div></div>

--00000000000041c4210640c12153--

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> From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> Cc: sbaugh@HIDDEN,  dmitry@HIDDEN,  joaotavora@HIDDEN,
>   77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2025 19:46:11 +0300
> 
> >> > Can Flymake use per-window overlays?  Then each window could have the
> >> > margin display specific to that window.
> >> 
> >> Adding per-window overlays will limit usability of Flymake that will
> >> hide indicators in the same buffer displayed in other windows.
> >
> > No, it will need that Flymake defines a (possibly) slightly different
> > overlay for each window of those which display a buffer.
> 
> For example, the user splits the selected window, so that
> two windows are displaying the same buffer.  How can
> Flymake define a different overlay for the new window?

Flymake will need to go over the overlays and add an identical overlay
with the new window's ID.  This processing will have to be done in one
of the hooks described in "Window Hooks" node of the ELisp manual.

> >> While as the same time it doesn't solve the original problem
> >> because after hiding margin indicators on a graphical display,
> >> it can't automatically enable fringe indicators.
> >
> > Sorry, I don't think I understand the scenario.  Can you describe this
> > in more detail?  Why would hiding margin indicators require
> > automatically enabling fringe indicators?
> 
> For example, the user enables flymake-mode on a TTY frame,
> then opens the same buffer on a graphical frame.
> How can the existing buffer switch from displaying
> the indicators in margins to displaying the indicators
> in fringes?

When the buffer is shown in any window it wasn't before, the
corresponding window hook will need to run Flymake function which adds
overlays specific to that window, and that will take the GUI/TTY
nature of the window into account.

Deletion of windows will need to delete the overlays specific to those
windows.

Yes, this makes the processing more expensive, and will increase the
number of overlays in buffers shown in many windows.  But I see no
other way of doing TRT in this case.

The only alternative is to disable the indicators if the fringes are
not available on the frame or window.  If we don't mind punting like
that, we could go this easier way.  This means we will show the fringe
indicators only in GUI windows that have the fringes; users who want
the indicators in all windows will have to customize the option to use
the margin, and we will then use the margin in all windows.  If the
user customizes to use the fringe, the indicator will simply not be
shown in windows without fringes.  We will need to carefully consider
the default value if we decide to do it this way, and probably use the
margin as the default.

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>>     Alas, that fails if the user uses "emacs --daemon" and graphical
>>     frames,
>>     because the first (pseudo-)frame created is non-graphical.  I think
>>     that
>>     is a pretty common configuration.
>
> I use that setup! No idea what a pseudo-frame is,

The daemon's initial frame is a virtual pseudo-frame
that is not displayed anywhere.  Usually it can be detected as

  (and (daemonp) (not (frame-parameter nil 'client)))

> but see the patch after my sig.
> It works how I envisioned it for these 4 cases.
>
> emacs -Q -nw
> emacs -Q
> emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -c
> emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -tty
>
> I'm sure you guys can implement something better as long as
> you know where you want to draw the unavoidable (according
> to you) compromise.  I think the first ever frame the user sees is 
> a good such place. There are others more sophisticated, probably.
> The current situation, OTOH, is a bit untenable IMO.

I think using 'after-make-frame-functions' is a good compromise.
Maybe better to add this hook only after the first activation of
'flymake-mode'.  And on the first activation it could also check
the selected frame as well.

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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 10:35:43 +0300
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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> Cc: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>, 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 09:31:23 +0300
> 
> >>     Alas, that fails if the user uses "emacs --daemon" and graphical
> >>     frames,
> >>     because the first (pseudo-)frame created is non-graphical.  I think
> >>     that
> >>     is a pretty common configuration.
> >
> > I use that setup! No idea what a pseudo-frame is,
> 
> The daemon's initial frame is a virtual pseudo-frame
> that is not displayed anywhere.  Usually it can be detected as
> 
>   (and (daemonp) (not (frame-parameter nil 'client)))
> 
> > but see the patch after my sig.
> > It works how I envisioned it for these 4 cases.
> >
> > emacs -Q -nw
> > emacs -Q
> > emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -c
> > emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -tty
> >
> > I'm sure you guys can implement something better as long as
> > you know where you want to draw the unavoidable (according
> > to you) compromise.  I think the first ever frame the user sees is 
> > a good such place. There are others more sophisticated, probably.
> > The current situation, OTOH, is a bit untenable IMO.
> 
> I think using 'after-make-frame-functions' is a good compromise.
> Maybe better to add this hook only after the first activation of
> 'flymake-mode'.  And on the first activation it could also check
> the selected frame as well.

Note that there's also server-after-make-frame-hook, which is specific
to client frames.

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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

> The daemon's initial frame is a virtual pseudo-frame
> that is not displayed anywhere.  Usually it can be detected as
>
>   (and (daemonp) (not (frame-parameter nil 'client)))

Thanks.  It doesn't seem to run the after-make-frame-functions though,
so it doesn't matter.

>
>> but see the patch after my sig.
>> It works how I envisioned it for these 4 cases.
>>
>> emacs -Q -nw
>> emacs -Q
>> emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -c
>> emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -tty
>>
>> I'm sure you guys can implement something better as long as
>> you know where you want to draw the unavoidable (according
>> to you) compromise.  I think the first ever frame the user sees is=20
>> a good such place. There are others more sophisticated, probably.
>> The current situation, OTOH, is a bit untenable IMO.
>
> I think using 'after-make-frame-functions' is a good compromise.
> Maybe better to add this hook only after the first activation of
> 'flymake-mode'.  And on the first activation it could also check
> the selected frame as well.

Could be.  It's slightly more subtlety for the user to reason about, as
the criteria would become somewhat more complicated, but again it would
serve 95% of use cases.  And the patch would become simpler (no
autoloads needed, I think).

So go ahead,
Jo=C3=A3o

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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:
>> but see the patch after my sig.
>> It works how I envisioned it for these 4 cases.
>>
>> emacs -Q -nw
>> emacs -Q
>> emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -c
>> emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -tty
>>
>> I'm sure you guys can implement something better as long as
>> you know where you want to draw the unavoidable (according
>> to you) compromise.  I think the first ever frame the user sees is 
>> a good such place. There are others more sophisticated, probably.
>> The current situation, OTOH, is a bit untenable IMO.
>
> I think using 'after-make-frame-functions' is a good compromise.
> Maybe better to add this hook only after the first activation of
> 'flymake-mode'.  And on the first activation it could also check
> the selected frame as well.

If the user's config opens a buffer with flymake-mode before the first
real frame is created, that won't work :(

(That was the cause of a specific bug report I received)

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From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <86o6qf8e2h.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 10 Oct
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: sbaugh@HIDDEN,  dmitry@HIDDEN,  joaotavora@HIDDEN,
>>   77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2025 19:46:11 +0300
>> 
>> >> > Can Flymake use per-window overlays?  Then each window could have the
>> >> > margin display specific to that window.
>> >> 
>> >> Adding per-window overlays will limit usability of Flymake that will
>> >> hide indicators in the same buffer displayed in other windows.
>> >
>> > No, it will need that Flymake defines a (possibly) slightly different
>> > overlay for each window of those which display a buffer.
>> 
>> For example, the user splits the selected window, so that
>> two windows are displaying the same buffer.  How can
>> Flymake define a different overlay for the new window?
>
> Flymake will need to go over the overlays and add an identical overlay
> with the new window's ID.  This processing will have to be done in one
> of the hooks described in "Window Hooks" node of the ELisp manual.

I guess with window-buffer-change-functions?

This would be much faster and less complex if the 'window overlay
property could be a list.  Or better yet, a symbol containing a list.
Then we would not need to make new overlays when a new window displays
the buffer: we would just need to add the new window to the list.

Is that a feature we could add?  It seems like it would be something
generally useful.

>> >> While as the same time it doesn't solve the original problem
>> >> because after hiding margin indicators on a graphical display,
>> >> it can't automatically enable fringe indicators.
>> >
>> > Sorry, I don't think I understand the scenario.  Can you describe this
>> > in more detail?  Why would hiding margin indicators require
>> > automatically enabling fringe indicators?
>> 
>> For example, the user enables flymake-mode on a TTY frame,
>> then opens the same buffer on a graphical frame.
>> How can the existing buffer switch from displaying
>> the indicators in margins to displaying the indicators
>> in fringes?
>
> When the buffer is shown in any window it wasn't before, the
> corresponding window hook will need to run Flymake function which adds
> overlays specific to that window, and that will take the GUI/TTY
> nature of the window into account.

Again with window-buffer-change-functions, I suppose.

> Deletion of windows will need to delete the overlays specific to those
> windows.

What hook would be used for that?  Obviously
window-configuration-change-hook could do it, but is there a better one?

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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
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Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN> writes:

> Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:
>>> but see the patch after my sig.
>>> It works how I envisioned it for these 4 cases.
>>>
>>> emacs -Q -nw
>>> emacs -Q
>>> emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -c
>>> emacs -Q --daemon, followed by a first emacsclient -tty
>>>
>>> I'm sure you guys can implement something better as long as
>>> you know where you want to draw the unavoidable (according
>>> to you) compromise.  I think the first ever frame the user sees is=20
>>> a good such place. There are others more sophisticated, probably.
>>> The current situation, OTOH, is a bit untenable IMO.
>>
>> I think using 'after-make-frame-functions' is a good compromise.
>> Maybe better to add this hook only after the first activation of
>> 'flymake-mode'.  And on the first activation it could also check
>> the selected frame as well.
>
> If the user's config opens a buffer with flymake-mode before the first
> real frame is created, that won't work :(
>
> (That was the cause of a specific bug report I received)

OK, I think I understand.  One first thing to say is that a config that
non-interactively makes use of Flymake, a visual an interactive
diagnostic annotation tool, is likely just wrong.  Or, at very least,
its existence should not preside over any decisions to introduce
regressions (and I say that knowing perfectly well _my_ config has
plenty of hacks).

Secondly, it's impossible to know the future.  I.e. it's impossible to
know the type of frame that will be created in the future.  But that
need only potentially break the buffers where you or the user have
already started a Flymake annotation process.  For all all other
buffers, both my patch and Juri's vapourware/idealized patch should be
more than fine.

Finally, if you really, really, really want to appease that user's use
case, you can just cleverly not take any decisions until you actually
need to, i.e. until the frame IS created.  For that effect, you may
notice that Flymake actually already has code, in flymake-start, to
defer the actual diagnostic annotation process until certain conditions
are met.  And one of that conditions happens to involve
'window-configuration-change-hooks', as has been suggested here already
(by Juri?).

It's true, it wasn't designed with this particular use case in mind (but
not far off either, consult the regional Git history if you're
interested).  Also, it doesn't understand the "pseudo-frames" I've just
learned about, but it's very easy to introduce that as Yuri suggested,
and I did.  See the patch after my sig.  As far as I can see, it does
exactly what you want and it undoes the regression.

Jo=C3=A3o

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 7426824e60a..717959c2f4c 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -870,6 +870,17 @@ flymake--indicator-overlay-spec
                                             #'flymake-show-buffer-diagnost=
ics)
                                            map))))))))
=20
+(defun flymake--use-margins-maybe ()
+  "Super-special heuristic to guess margins instead of fringes." ; bug#773=
13
+  (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)
+             (not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+                    (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
+                    (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))))
+    ;; There are no fringes in the buffer, fallback to margins
+    ;; and auto-resize
+    (setq-local flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
+    (flymake--resize-margins)))
+
 (defun flymake--resize-margins (&optional orig-width)
   "Resize current window margins according to `flymake-margin-indicator-po=
sition'.
 Return to original margin width if ORIG-WIDTH is non-nil."
@@ -1366,8 +1377,10 @@ flymake-start
                     deferred))
         (buffer (current-buffer)))
     (cl-labels
-        ((start-post-command
-          ()
+        ((visible-p ()
+           (and (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))
+                (not (null (frame-parameter nil 'client)))))
+         (start-post-command ()
           (remove-hook 'post-command-hook #'start-post-command
                        nil)
           ;; The buffer may have disappeared already, e.g. because of
@@ -1375,28 +1388,24 @@ flymake-start
           (when (buffer-live-p buffer)
             (with-current-buffer buffer
               (flymake-start (remove 'post-command deferred) force))))
-         (start-on-display
-          ()
+         (start-on-display ()
           (remove-hook 'window-configuration-change-hook #'start-on-display
                        'local)
-          (flymake-start (remove 'on-display deferred) force)))
+          ;; Double check that buffer is actually visible (bug#77313)
+          (flymake-start (if (visible-p) (remove 'on-display deferred) def=
erred)
+                         force)))
       (cond ((and (memq 'post-command deferred)
                   this-command)
              (add-hook 'post-command-hook
                        #'start-post-command
                        'append nil))
             ((and (memq 'on-display deferred)
-                  (not (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))))
+                  (not (visible-p)))
              (add-hook 'window-configuration-change-hook
                        #'start-on-display
                        'append 'local))
             (flymake-mode
-             (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)
-                        (not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
-                               (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
-                               (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes))=
)))))
-               ;; There are no fringes in the buffer, fallback to margins.
-               (setq-local flymake-indicator-type 'margins))
+             (flymake--use-margins-maybe)
              (setq flymake-check-start-time (float-time))
              (let ((backend-args
                     (and

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> +        ((visible-p ()
> +           (and (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))
> +                (not (null (frame-parameter nil 'client)))))

Shouldn't this rather be

           ((visible-p ()
              (and (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))
                   (or (not (daemonp))
                       (not (null (frame-parameter nil 'client))))))

i.e. to accept all frames except the daemon's initial frame.

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> Yes, this makes the processing more expensive, and will increase the
> number of overlays in buffers shown in many windows.  But I see no
> other way of doing TRT in this case.

When we will implement margin columns in shared margins, then we could
just remove the margin column dedicated to the flymake indicators
when fringes are used.

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> From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> Cc: sbaugh@HIDDEN,  joaotavora@HIDDEN,  77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>   dmitry@HIDDEN
> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 18:01:09 +0300
> 
> > Yes, this makes the processing more expensive, and will increase the
> > number of overlays in buffers shown in many windows.  But I see no
> > other way of doing TRT in this case.
> 
> When we will implement margin columns in shared margins, then we could
> just remove the margin column dedicated to the flymake indicators
> when fringes are used.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how will this help having the
indicators shown in all relevant windows, when some of those windows
could be on GUI frames and some on TTY frames?

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On Mon, Oct 13, 2025, 16:02 Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > +        ((visible-p ()
> > +           (and (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))
> > +                (not (null (frame-parameter nil 'client)))))
>
> Shouldn't this rather be
>
>            ((visible-p ()
>               (and (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))
>                    (or (not (daemonp))
>                        (not (null (frame-parameter nil 'client))))))
>
> i.e. to accept all frames except the daemon's initial frame.
>

Yeah maybe. Though I don't think it matters in practice, at least didn't in
my testing. But it makes sense.

--000000000000b9203206410ce88e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
 gmail_quote_container" dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">=
On Mon, Oct 13, 2025, 16:02 Juri Linkov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:juri@HIDDEN=
et">juri@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">&gt; +=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ((visible-p ()<br>
&gt; +=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(and (get-buffer-window (cur=
rent-buffer))<br>
&gt; +=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (not (null (f=
rame-parameter nil &#39;client)))))<br>
<br>
Shouldn&#39;t this rather be<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0((visible-p ()<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (and (get-buffer-window (c=
urrent-buffer))<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or (n=
ot (daemonp))<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0(not (null (frame-parameter nil &#39;client))))))<br>
<br>
i.e. to accept all frames except the daemon&#39;s initial frame.<br></block=
quote></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yeah maybe. Thoug=
h I don&#39;t think it matters in practice, at least didn&#39;t in my testi=
ng. But it makes sense.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container" dir=3D"aut=
o"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div>

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On Mon, Oct 13, 2025, 16:31 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: sbaugh@HIDDEN,  joaotavora@HIDDEN,  77313@HIDDEN=
g
> ,
> >   dmitry@HIDDEN
> > Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 18:01:09 +0300
> >
> > > Yes, this makes the processing more expensive, and will increase the
> > > number of overlays in buffers shown in many windows.  But I see no
> > > other way of doing TRT in this case.
> >
> > When we will implement margin columns in shared margins, then we could
> > just remove the margin column dedicated to the flymake indicators
> > when fringes are used.
>
> Maybe I'm missing something, but how will this help having the
> indicators shown in all relevant windows, when some of those windows
> could be on GUI frames and some on TTY frames?
>

Not sure that is what anyone is looking for (maybe it is), but showing the
indicators in different bits of the window depending on the type of frame
that window is on, while theoretically nice, is waaay too much engineering
and overcomplicating in my opinion, especially if Flymake is the only
motivation.

We need to cover the common use casesb before the esoteric ones.

Right now there is a regression and a loss of indicators for TTY users.
Spencer, any objections that I install the patch that addresses this (and
doesn't break the daemon+fringes)?

Jo=C3=A3o

>

--000000000000b9b03006410d0ab2
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">On Mon, Oct 13, 2025, 16:31 Eli Zaretsk=
ii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container" dir=3D"auto"><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">&gt; From: Juri Linkov &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:juri@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">juri@HIDDEN</=
a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:sbaugh@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"=
noreferrer">sbaugh@HIDDEN</a>,=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:joaotavora@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">joaotavora@HIDDEN</a>,=C2=
=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noref=
errer">77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:dmitry@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">dmitry@HIDDEN</a><br>
&gt; Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 18:01:09 +0300<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Yes, this makes the processing more expensive, and will increase =
the<br>
&gt; &gt; number of overlays in buffers shown in many windows.=C2=A0 But I =
see no<br>
&gt; &gt; other way of doing TRT in this case.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; When we will implement margin columns in shared margins, then we could=
<br>
&gt; just remove the margin column dedicated to the flymake indicators<br>
&gt; when fringes are used.<br>
<br>
Maybe I&#39;m missing something, but how will this help having the<br>
indicators shown in all relevant windows, when some of those windows<br>
could be on GUI frames and some on TTY frames?<br></blockquote></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Not sure that is what anyone is loo=
king for (maybe it is), but showing the indicators in different bits of the=
 window depending on the type of frame that window is on, while theoretical=
ly nice, is waaay too much engineering and overcomplicating in my opinion, =
especially if Flymake is the only motivation.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">We need to cover the common use casesb before the eso=
teric ones.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Right =
now there is a regression and a loss of indicators for TTY users. Spencer, =
any objections that I install the patch that addresses this (and doesn&#39;=
t break the daemon+fringes)?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto">Jo=C3=A3o</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container" dir=3D=
"auto"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
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Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:

> On Mon, Oct 13, 2025, 16:31 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>  > From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
>  > Cc: sbaugh@HIDDEN,  joaotavora@HIDDEN,  77313@HIDDEN=
rg,
>  >   dmitry@HIDDEN
>  > Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 18:01:09 +0300
>  >=20
>  > > Yes, this makes the processing more expensive, and will increase the
>  > > number of overlays in buffers shown in many windows.  But I see no
>  > > other way of doing TRT in this case.
>  >=20
>  > When we will implement margin columns in shared margins, then we could
>  > just remove the margin column dedicated to the flymake indicators
>  > when fringes are used.
>
>  Maybe I'm missing something, but how will this help having the
>  indicators shown in all relevant windows, when some of those windows
>  could be on GUI frames and some on TTY frames?
>
> Not sure that is what anyone is looking for (maybe it is), but showing th=
e indicators in different bits of the window depending on
> the type of frame that window is on, while theoretically nice, is waaay t=
oo much engineering and overcomplicating in my opinion,
> especially if Flymake is the only motivation.
>
> We need to cover the common use casesb before the esoteric ones.=20
>
> Right now there is a regression and a loss of indicators for TTY users. S=
pencer, any objections that I install the patch that
> addresses this (and doesn't break the daemon+fringes)?

I do object.  The current state on master is not so problematic as to
require an urgent change.  TTY users had no way to get flymake
indicators for many years, the fact that they merely need to enable them
explicitly is not so terrible.  We can afford to spend time discussing
whether a better solution is possible.

Especially because the same issue affects other packages, e.g. diff-hl,
as I mentioned.  A flymake-specific hack does nothing to help solve the
general problem.

Also, in your patch, flymake--use-margins-maybe calls (window-fringes),
assuming that the current buffer is displayed in the selected window.
That's not always the case, I think, since flymake-start can be called
with nil DEFERRED.

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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
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Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Right now there is a regression and a loss of indicators for TTY
>> users. Spencer, any objections that I install the patch that
>> addresses this (and doesn't break the daemon+fringes)?
> I do object.  The current state on master is not so problematic as to
> require an urgent change.  TTY users had no way to get flymake
> indicators for many years, the fact that they merely need to enable them
> explicitly is not so terrible.

These arguments are not very strong because they apply equally to your
decision this summer to break TTY users.

The daemon + fringe + config_that_runs_flymake users you're protecting
could also have tweaked their customization (or at least Flymake could
have very easily been changed to allow that explicit tweaking to take
place).

> We can afford to spend time discussing whether a better solution is
> possible.

Of course, I applaud that discusison, I just can't take part in it.
I'll be very happy if some very elegant solution is found and won't
stand in the way.

Unfortunately, as it stands, there is a regression for 30.1 TTY Emacs
users.  So let's fix that (AND fix your case) while the discussion is
being had.

In my shop, we use TTY Eglot/Emacs over ssh exclusively (no X servers
allowed in those!).  So while I don't want to make life difficult for
you and your users, I hope you understand that having to explain to my
users why indicators are gone all of a sudden is not good.

> Especially because the same issue affects other packages, e.g. diff-hl,
> as I mentioned.  A flymake-specific hack does nothing to help solve the
> general problem.

It's not a hack.  Flymake has had code to defer display decisions to the
last possible moment for many years.  It's much better here than in
flymake-mode.

> Also, in your patch, flymake--use-margins-maybe calls (window-fringes),
> assuming that the current buffer is displayed in the selected window.
> That's not always the case, I think, since flymake-start can be called
> with nil DEFERRED.

OK, though I don't understand that that would be problem, I've tweaked
the patch so that window-margins can only be called on the window found
to be displaying the buffer about to be annotated.

So, I've tested this in the four main cases:

emacs -Q '(setq trusted-content :all)' --eval '(insert "\nboo!")' -f flymak=
e-mode
emacs -Q -nw '(setq trusted-content :all)' --eval '(insert "\nboo!")' -f fl=
ymake-mode
emacs -Q --daemon ... -f flymake-mode + tty client
emacs -Q --daemon ... -f flymake-mode + graphical client

Please review the patch after my sig again,
Jo=C3=A3o

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 8b6d477c385..c3faa7a81c8 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -870,6 +870,17 @@ flymake--indicator-overlay-spec
                                             #'flymake-show-buffer-diagnost=
ics)
                                            map))))))))
=20
+(defun flymake--use-margins-maybe (window)
+  "Super-special heuristic to guess margins instead of fringes." ; bug#773=
13
+  (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)
+             (not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+                    (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes window))))
+                    (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes window)))))))
+    ;; There are no fringes in the buffer, fallback to margins
+    ;; and auto-resize
+    (setq-local flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
+    (flymake--resize-margins)))
+
 (defun flymake--resize-margins (&optional orig-width)
   "Resize current window margins according to `flymake-margin-indicator-po=
sition'.
 Return to original margin width if ORIG-WIDTH is non-nil."
@@ -1366,8 +1377,11 @@ flymake-start
                     deferred))
         (buffer (current-buffer)))
     (cl-labels
-        ((start-post-command
-          ()
+        ((visible-buffer-window ()
+           (and (or (not (daemonp))
+                    (not (null (frame-parameter nil 'client))))
+                (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))))
+         (start-post-command ()
           (remove-hook 'post-command-hook #'start-post-command
                        nil)
           ;; The buffer may have disappeared already, e.g. because of
@@ -1375,22 +1389,24 @@ flymake-start
           (when (buffer-live-p buffer)
             (with-current-buffer buffer
               (flymake-start (remove 'post-command deferred) force))))
-         (start-on-display
-          ()
+         (start-on-display ()
           (remove-hook 'window-configuration-change-hook #'start-on-display
                        'local)
-          (flymake-start (remove 'on-display deferred) force)))
+          ;; Double check that buffer is actually visible (bug#77313)
+          (flymake-start (if (visible-buffer-window) (remove 'on-display d=
eferred)) force)))
       (cond ((and (memq 'post-command deferred)
                   this-command)
              (add-hook 'post-command-hook
                        #'start-post-command
                        'append nil))
             ((and (memq 'on-display deferred)
-                  (not (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))))
+                  (not (visible-buffer-window)))
              (add-hook 'window-configuration-change-hook
                        #'start-on-display
                        'append 'local))
             (flymake-mode
+             (when-let* ((w (visible-buffer-window)))
+               (flymake--use-margins-maybe w))
              (setq flymake-check-start-time (float-time))
              (let ((backend-args
                     (and

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> Especially because the same issue affects other packages, e.g. diff-hl,
> as I mentioned.  A flymake-specific hack does nothing to help solve the
> general problem.

Agreed that we need to find a general solution.  For example,
in 'hs-minor-mode' we have a new option 'hs-indicator-type' that can
be either 'fringe' or 'margin', with the default value set to 'fringe'.

And the fallback from 'fringe' or 'margin' depending on
(display-graphic-p) is performed in 'hs-minor-mode'.

Maybe this should be sufficient for modes that support both
indicator types.

Also the patch proposed by Jo�o should be fine for flymake
since it just postpones displaying the indicators until
the buffer's window becomes visible.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Especially because the same issue affects other packages, e.g. diff-hl,
>> as I mentioned.  A flymake-specific hack does nothing to help solve the
>> general problem.
>
> Agreed that we need to find a general solution.  For example,
> in 'hs-minor-mode' we have a new option 'hs-indicator-type' that can
> be either 'fringe' or 'margin', with the default value set to 'fringe'.

Yes, very similar.  The code looks pretty similar in fact, I'm guessing
it was mostly copied from flymake.  This really suggests we should have
a library for this...

> And the fallback from 'fringe' or 'margin' depending on
> (display-graphic-p) is performed in 'hs-minor-mode'.

Oh no, we should definitely fix that before Emacs 31 is released!  That
will cause the exact same bugs as with flymake.

> Maybe this should be sufficient for modes that support both
> indicator types.

display-graphic-p is somewhat better, but we should just do the proper fix.

What about my suggestion of a 'window overlay property which points to a
symbol containing a list of windows?  If we had that, I think we'd have
a very complete solution, which could also be used by hs-minor-mode.

And that solution can be wrapped up in a library used by hideshow,
flymake, and diff-hl.

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On 09/10/2025 09:49, Juri Linkov wrote:
>>> Specifically, I think what we need is some way to have "per-window" text
>>> displayed in the margins.
>>>
>>> Then flymake could add text to the margins which is only displayed in
>>> windows in terminal frames.  And also only widen the margins in such
>>> frames, too.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if this is possible right now, though.  Maybe this needs an
>>> enhancement to the low-level display of margins?
>> Can Flymake use per-window overlays?  Then each window could have the
>> margin display specific to that window.
> Adding per-window overlays will limit usability of Flymake that will
> hide indicators in the same buffer displayed in other windows.
> 
> While as the same time it doesn't solve the original problem
> because after hiding margin indicators on a graphical display,
> it can't automatically enable fringe indicators.

Perhaps we could use the

   (when condition . spec)

form of the display spec? Then it would take two overlays, though, which 
would provide specs for graphic and non-graphic.

If the conditions are evaluated repeatedly when displaying the same 
buffer in different windows, could be fine. There is a minor issue, 
though, that when condition evaluates to nil, the " " string used as a 
based becomes the overlay's display value. Maybe we could do something 
about that.

In diff-hl, code would look something like this:

diff --git a/diff-hl.el b/diff-hl.el
index 778d8fd..7a62fd2 100644
--- a/diff-hl.el
+++ b/diff-hl.el
@@ -351,9 +351,12 @@ It can be a relative expression as well, such as 
\"HEAD^\" with Git, or
      (unless val
        (let* ((face-sym (funcall diff-hl-fringe-face-function type pos))
               (bmp-sym (funcall diff-hl-fringe-bmp-function type pos)))
-        (setq val (propertize " " 'display `((,(intern (format 
"%s-fringe" side))
-                                              ,bmp-sym ,face-sym))))
+        (setq val (propertize " " 'display `((when (display-graphic-p)
+                                               .
+                                               (,(intern (format 
"%s-fringe" side))
+                                                ,bmp-sym ,face-sym)))))
          (puthash key val diff-hl-spec-cache)))
+
      val))

  (defun diff-hl-fringe-face-from-type (type _pos)

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

> What about my suggestion of a 'window overlay property which points to a
> symbol containing a list of windows?  If we had that, I think we'd have
> a very complete solution, which could also be used by hs-minor-mode.

I tried to implement this feature with the patch attached below.

But unfortunately, it can't be used for flymake because it requires
duplicating all overlays, but flymake depends on the 1:1 mapping
between errors and overlays.

To keep the existing design with one overlay per error
we need to invent another way to add fringe/margin indicators
conditionally.

For example, to add a predicate to the fringe/margin spec like this:

  #("!" 0 1
    (display
     (left-fringe flymake-double-exclamation-mark compilation-error PREDICATE)))
  #("!" 0 1
    (display
     ((margin left-margin PREDICATE)
      #("‼" 0 1

on the same overlay.

Or like Dmitry proposed to add a condition to the display spec.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-diff
Content-Disposition: inline; filename=flymake-fallback-to-margins.patch

diff --git a/doc/lispref/display.texi b/doc/lispref/display.texi
index 9e83e4a9bcc..1c5f137bb0d 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/display.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/display.texi
@@ -1888,7 +1888,9 @@ Overlay Properties
 @kindex window @r{(overlay property)}
 @item window
 If the @code{window} property is non-@code{nil}, then the overlay
-applies only on that window.
+applies only on that window.  When the @code{window} property
+is a symbol bound to a variable with a list, then the overlay
+applies only on windows from this list.
 
 @kindex category @r{(overlay property)}
 @item category
diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 88ebf1ccd97..360154670ab 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,7 +185,7 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
 
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fallback-to-margins
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
 
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
@@ -200,6 +200,7 @@ flymake-indicator-type
   :version "31.1"
   :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
                  (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
+                 (const :tag "Fallback to margins" fallback-to-margins)
                  (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))
 
 (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
@@ -897,6 +898,18 @@ flymake--resize-margins
             (set-window-buffer x (window-buffer x)))
           (get-buffer-window-list nil nil 'visible))))
 
+(defvar-local flymake-margin-windows nil)
+
+(defun flymake-window-buffer-change (w)
+  (when (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+          (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
+          (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))
+    (unless flymake-margin-windows
+      (let ((flymake-indicator-type 'margins))
+        (flymake--resize-margins)))
+    (unless (memq w flymake-margin-windows)
+      (setq flymake-margin-windows (cons w flymake-margin-windows)))))
+
 (defun flymake--equal-diagnostic-p (a b)
   "Tell if A and B are equivalent `flymake--diag' objects."
   (or (eq a b)
@@ -1012,7 +1034,16 @@ flymake--highlight-line
                   (overlay-put ov prop (flymake--lookup-type-property
                                         type prop value)))))
       (default-maybe 'face 'flymake-error)
-      (default-maybe 'before-string (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type))
+      (default-maybe 'before-string
+                     (let ((flymake-indicator-type
+                            (if (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fallback-to-margins)
+                                'fringes
+                              flymake-indicator-type)))
+                       (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type)))
+      (when (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fallback-to-margins)
+        (default-maybe 'window 'flymake-margin-windows)
+        (default-maybe 'after-string (let ((flymake-indicator-type 'margins))
+                                       (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type))))
       ;; (default-maybe 'after-string
       ;;                (flymake--diag-text diagnostic))
       (default-maybe 'help-echo
@@ -1507,6 +1538,8 @@ flymake-mode
     (add-hook 'after-save-hook 'flymake-after-save-hook nil t)
     (add-hook 'kill-buffer-hook 'flymake-kill-buffer-hook nil t)
     (add-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t t)
+    (when (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fallback-to-margins)
+      (add-hook 'window-buffer-change-functions 'flymake-window-buffer-change nil t))
 
     ;; AutoResize margins.
     (flymake--resize-margins)
@@ -1526,6 +1559,7 @@ flymake-mode
     (remove-hook 'kill-buffer-hook 'flymake-kill-buffer-hook t)
     ;;+(remove-hook 'find-file-hook (function flymake-find-file-hook) t)
     (remove-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t)
+    (remove-hook 'window-buffer-change-functions 'flymake-window-buffer-change t)
 
     ;; return margin to original size
     (flymake--resize-margins t)
diff --git a/src/buffer.c b/src/buffer.c
index e44b6daf587..22dd3f894ff 100644
--- a/src/buffer.c
+++ b/src/buffer.c
@@ -3463,9 +3463,8 @@ overlay_strings (ptrdiff_t pos, struct window *w, unsigned char **pstr)
 
       if (endpos != pos && startpos != pos)
 	continue;
-      Lisp_Object window = Foverlay_get (overlay, Qwindow);
-      if (WINDOWP (window) && XWINDOW (window) != w)
-	continue;
+      if (! overlay_matches_window (w, overlay))
+        continue;
       Lisp_Object str;
       /* FIXME: Are we really sure that `record_overlay_string` can
          never cause a non-local exit?  */
diff --git a/src/window.h b/src/window.h
index 2266fc7814c..ccc3e20dfea 100644
--- a/src/window.h
+++ b/src/window.h
@@ -1257,8 +1257,30 @@ output_cursor_to (struct window *w, int vpos, int hpos, int y, int x)
 overlay_matches_window (const struct window *w, Lisp_Object ov)
 {
   eassert (OVERLAYP (ov));
-  Lisp_Object  window = Foverlay_get (ov, Qwindow);
-  return (! WINDOWP (window) || XWINDOW (window) == w);
+
+  Lisp_Object window = Foverlay_get (ov, Qwindow);
+  if (WINDOWP (window) && XWINDOW (window) != w)
+    return false;
+
+  /* The property `window' can also be a symbol
+     whose value is a list of windows. */
+  if (SYMBOLP (window) && !NILP (window) && !NILP (Fboundp (window)))
+    {
+      window = Fsymbol_value (window);
+      if (CONSP (window))
+	{
+	  FOR_EACH_TAIL (window)
+	    {
+	      Lisp_Object tem = XCAR (window);
+	      if (WINDOWP (tem) && XWINDOW (tem) == w)
+		return true;
+	    }
+	}
+
+      return false;
+    }
+
+  return true;
 }
 
 INLINE_HEADER_END
diff --git a/src/xdisp.c b/src/xdisp.c
index aef40c38e54..ccc31e56994 100644
--- a/src/xdisp.c
+++ b/src/xdisp.c
@@ -7036,9 +7036,8 @@ #define RECORD_OVERLAY_STRING(OVERLAY, STRING, AFTER_P)			\
         continue;
 
       /* Skip this overlay if it doesn't apply to IT->w.  */
-      Lisp_Object window = Foverlay_get (overlay, Qwindow);
-      if (WINDOWP (window) && XWINDOW (window) != it->w)
-        continue;
+      if (! overlay_matches_window (it->w, overlay))
+	continue;
 
       /* If the text ``under'' the overlay is invisible, both before-
 	 and after-strings from this overlay are visible; start and
@@ -7476,8 +7475,7 @@ strings_with_newlines (ptrdiff_t startpos, ptrdiff_t endpos, struct window *w)
       eassert (OVERLAYP (overlay));
 
       /* Skip this overlay if it doesn't apply to our window.  */
-      Lisp_Object window = Foverlay_get (overlay, Qwindow);
-      if (WINDOWP (window) && XWINDOW (window) != w)
+      if (! overlay_matches_window (w, overlay))
 	continue;
 
       ptrdiff_t ostart = node->begin;

--=-=-=--

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Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN> writes:

> On 09/10/2025 09:49, Juri Linkov wrote:
>>>> Specifically, I think what we need is some way to have "per-window" text
>>>> displayed in the margins.
>>>>
>>>> Then flymake could add text to the margins which is only displayed in
>>>> windows in terminal frames.  And also only widen the margins in such
>>>> frames, too.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if this is possible right now, though.  Maybe this needs an
>>>> enhancement to the low-level display of margins?
>>> Can Flymake use per-window overlays?  Then each window could have the
>>> margin display specific to that window.
>> Adding per-window overlays will limit usability of Flymake that will
>> hide indicators in the same buffer displayed in other windows.
>> While as the same time it doesn't solve the original problem
>> because after hiding margin indicators on a graphical display,
>> it can't automatically enable fringe indicators.
>
> Perhaps we could use the
>
>   (when condition . spec)
>
> form of the display spec? Then it would take two overlays, though,
> which would provide specs for graphic and non-graphic.

Great idea.

It looks like having a list of conditions also works, e.g.

(propertize "foo" 'display
  '((when (not (display-graphic-p)) . "tty")
    (when (display-graphic-p) . "gui")))

successfully shows "tty" when the buffer is displayed in a tty frame,
and "gui" when displayed in a graphical frame.

So we don't need two overlays, just one would work, with this method.

Though, when the buffer is displayed in both frames at the same time,
what's displayed depends on the frame which was last interacted-with
(and therefore last redisplayed).

That's a little ugly.  It looks like having two overlays instead avoids
that problem, so maybe we would want to do that.

> If the conditions are evaluated repeatedly when displaying the same
> buffer in different windows, could be fine. There is a minor issue,
> though, that when condition evaluates to nil, the " " string used as a
> based becomes the overlay's display value. Maybe we could do something
> about that.

Ah, you're right.  And an empty string doesn't work:

(overlay-put (make-overlay 1 10 (current-buffer)) 'before-string (propertize "" 'display "foo"))

This just displays nothing, because of course an empty string can't have
text properties.

So, I guess, maybe we could just put the display properties on an empty
overlay?

(overlay-put (make-overlay 1 1 (current-buffer)) 'display "foo")

Alas, that also displays nothing.  Perhaps that's something we could
change, though?

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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>,  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
>    joaotavora@HIDDEN,  77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 13:31:40 -0400
> 
> (overlay-put (make-overlay 1 1 (current-buffer)) 'display "foo")
> 
> Alas, that also displays nothing.  Perhaps that's something we could
> change, though?

I think you need to make this overlay's property be before-string, and
place the display property on that string.

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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>> What about my suggestion of a 'window overlay property which points to a
>> symbol containing a list of windows?  If we had that, I think we'd have
>> a very complete solution, which could also be used by hs-minor-mode.
>
> I tried to implement this feature with the patch attached below.

Nice!

> But unfortunately, it can't be used for flymake because it requires
> duplicating all overlays, but flymake depends on the 1:1 mapping
> between errors and overlays.

Oh, right... we still need two different overlays to use this approach,
one for GUI and one for TTY.

flymake could be refactored to do that, though it would be a bit
annoying...

> To keep the existing design with one overlay per error
> we need to invent another way to add fringe/margin indicators
> conditionally.
>
> For example, to add a predicate to the fringe/margin spec like this:
>
>   #("!" 0 1
>     (display
>      (left-fringe flymake-double-exclamation-mark compilation-error PREDI=
CATE)))
>   #("!" 0 1
>     (display
>      ((margin left-margin PREDICATE)
>       #("=E2=80=BC" 0 1
>
> on the same overlay.
>
> Or like Dmitry proposed to add a condition to the display spec.

Oh, so we'd have two different strings with different text properties,
concatenated together?

With the conditional display spec approach, it would be like this:

(insert (concat
         (propertize "x" 'display '((when (not (display-graphic-p)) . "tty"=
)))
         (propertize "y" 'display '((when (display-graphic-p) . "gui")))))

This unfortunately still has the issue I mentioned in reply to Dmitry:
when you switch between frames, the appearance switches back and forth
in *all* frames.  I guess this is just due to details of the redisplay
machinery?  I suspect this would probably also be the case if we added a
new kind of PREDICATE on fringes and margins, as you suggest.

The 'window overlay property doesn't have this issue:

  (let ((ov (make-overlay 1 10)))
    (overlay-put ov 'window my-tty-window)
    (overlay-put ov 'display "tty"))
  (let ((ov (make-overlay 1 10)))
    (overlay-put ov 'window my-gui-window)
    (overlay-put ov 'display "gui"))

It also doesn't have the issue that Dmitry mentioned, where the
"carrier" string for the display properties needs to be non-empty, and
therefore will display on the other type of frame.  The "!" never
displays with these overlays:

(let ((ov (make-overlay 1 10)))
  (overlay-put ov 'window my-tty-window)
  (overlay-put ov 'before-string (propertize "!" 'display "tty")))
(let ((ov (make-overlay 1 10)))
  (overlay-put ov 'window my-gui-window)
  (overlay-put ov 'before-string (propertize "!" 'display "gui")))

So window-specific overlays seem great (when coupled with your patch
adding the ability to have a list of windows rather than just one), they
just require refactoring flymake to support multiple overlays.

Maybe refactoring flymake to duplicate the overlays is just the right
thing to do?

Pros:
- It works.

Cons:

- It's slightly complicated.

- It makes flymake performance slightly worse.

- It's less flexible.  If we wanted a third different kind of display
  later, and then we'd need to have three overlays for each diagnostic.
=20=20
Overall though, I think probably duplicating the overlays is the right
thing to do.

I'll wait for others to chime in though before I work on that, because
this still requires Juri's C changes to support a list of windows in the
window property.

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> (insert (concat
>          (propertize "x" 'display '((when (not (display-graphic-p)) . "tty")))
>          (propertize "y" 'display '((when (display-graphic-p) . "gui")))))
>
> This unfortunately still has the issue I mentioned in reply to Dmitry:
> when you switch between frames, the appearance switches back and forth
> in *all* frames.  I guess this is just due to details of the redisplay
> machinery?

This is very strange, even separate conditions
on 'before-string' and 'after-string' can't display
their values independently on graphical and tty frames:

  (let ((o (make-overlay (pos-bol) (1+ (pos-bol)))))
    (overlay-put
     o 'before-string
     (propertize
      "!" 'display
      '((when (display-graphic-p) .
              (left-fringe flymake-double-exclamation-mark error)))))
    (overlay-put
     o 'after-string
     (propertize
      "?" 'display
      `((when (not (display-graphic-p)) .
              ((margin left-margin)
               ,(propertize ">" 'face 'error)))))))

They exhibit the same behavior that you described where the last frame wins,
and both frames show the same indicator in the margin.

> I suspect this would probably also be the case if we added a
> new kind of PREDICATE on fringes and margins, as you suggest.

Yes, very likely, since even the above case doesn't work as expected.

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Subject: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are erroneously using margins
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 22:22:59 +0300
Message-Id: <86frbkc6lo.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87ldlcggvo.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Juri Linkov on
 Wed, 15 Oct 2025 21:27:23 +0300)
References: <CALDnm52wZ5W-7QfnWv9OuRAjsoeGHiMoDLQv9Ymd-7oL2ag1nA@HIDDEN>
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 <ier5xchjq4u.fsf@HIDDEN> <878qhcjeua.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <iery0pchwel.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ldlcggvo.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN>,  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
>   João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>,
>   77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 21:27:23 +0300
> 
> > (insert (concat
> >          (propertize "x" 'display '((when (not (display-graphic-p)) . "tty")))
> >          (propertize "y" 'display '((when (display-graphic-p) . "gui")))))
> >
> > This unfortunately still has the issue I mentioned in reply to Dmitry:
> > when you switch between frames, the appearance switches back and forth
> > in *all* frames.  I guess this is just due to details of the redisplay
> > machinery?
> 
> This is very strange, even separate conditions
> on 'before-string' and 'after-string' can't display
> their values independently on graphical and tty frames:
> 
>   (let ((o (make-overlay (pos-bol) (1+ (pos-bol)))))
>     (overlay-put
>      o 'before-string
>      (propertize
>       "!" 'display
>       '((when (display-graphic-p) .
>               (left-fringe flymake-double-exclamation-mark error)))))
>     (overlay-put
>      o 'after-string
>      (propertize
>       "?" 'display
>       `((when (not (display-graphic-p)) .
>               ((margin left-margin)
>                ,(propertize ">" 'face 'error)))))))
> 
> They exhibit the same behavior that you described where the last frame wins,
> and both frames show the same indicator in the margin.

I think this is a manifestation of the caveat described in the last
paragraph of "Other Display Specs".

How about the following idea:

  . the overlay specifies indications both for the fringe and for the
    margin, like this:

     (let ((o (make-overlay 72 73)))
       (overlay-put
	o 'before-string
	(propertize
	 "!" 'display
	 '(left-fringe flymake-double-exclamation-mark error)))
       (overlay-put
	o 'after-string
	(propertize
	 "?" 'display
	 `((margin left-margin) ,(propertize ">" 'face 'error)))))

   . on GUI frames, we force the margin width to zero
   . on TTY frames, we force the margin to a positive value

Then on GUI frames, we will only see the fringe indicators, and on TTY
frames only the margin indicators.

(There's also the case of a GUI frame without fringes, but it could be
handled as if it were a TTY frame.)

WDYT?

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are erroneously using margins
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From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <86frbkc6lo.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 15 Oct
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References: <CALDnm52wZ5W-7QfnWv9OuRAjsoeGHiMoDLQv9Ymd-7oL2ag1nA@HIDDEN>
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 <87v7kpfls0.fsf@HIDDEN> <ierfrbt8eyc.fsf_-_@HIDDEN>
 <86v7koaaja.fsf@HIDDEN> <87347sh85u.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <86bjmga4gd.fsf@HIDDEN> <878qhkaur0.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <86o6qf8e2h.fsf@HIDDEN> <871pn67uak.fsf@HIDDEN>
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 <ier8qheka2m.fsf@HIDDEN> <87cy6ppdbj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <ier5xchjq4u.fsf@HIDDEN> <878qhcjeua.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <iery0pchwel.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ldlcggvo.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 16:02:34 -0400
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN>,  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
>>   Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>,
>>   77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 21:27:23 +0300
>>=20
>> > (insert (concat
>> >          (propertize "x" 'display '((when (not (display-graphic-p)) . =
"tty")))
>> >          (propertize "y" 'display '((when (display-graphic-p) . "gui")=
))))
>> >
>> > This unfortunately still has the issue I mentioned in reply to Dmitry:
>> > when you switch between frames, the appearance switches back and forth
>> > in *all* frames.  I guess this is just due to details of the redisplay
>> > machinery?
>>=20
>> This is very strange, even separate conditions
>> on 'before-string' and 'after-string' can't display
>> their values independently on graphical and tty frames:
>>=20
>>   (let ((o (make-overlay (pos-bol) (1+ (pos-bol)))))
>>     (overlay-put
>>      o 'before-string
>>      (propertize
>>       "!" 'display
>>       '((when (display-graphic-p) .
>>               (left-fringe flymake-double-exclamation-mark error)))))
>>     (overlay-put
>>      o 'after-string
>>      (propertize
>>       "?" 'display
>>       `((when (not (display-graphic-p)) .
>>               ((margin left-margin)
>>                ,(propertize ">" 'face 'error)))))))
>>=20
>> They exhibit the same behavior that you described where the last frame w=
ins,
>> and both frames show the same indicator in the margin.
>
> I think this is a manifestation of the caveat described in the last
> paragraph of "Other Display Specs".
>
> How about the following idea:
>
>   . the overlay specifies indications both for the fringe and for the
>     margin, like this:
>
>      (let ((o (make-overlay 72 73)))
>        (overlay-put
> 	o 'before-string
> 	(propertize
> 	 "!" 'display
> 	 '(left-fringe flymake-double-exclamation-mark error)))
>        (overlay-put
> 	o 'after-string
> 	(propertize
> 	 "?" 'display
> 	 `((margin left-margin) ,(propertize ">" 'face 'error)))))
>
>    . on GUI frames, we force the margin width to zero
>    . on TTY frames, we force the margin to a positive value
>
> Then on GUI frames, we will only see the fringe indicators, and on TTY
> frames only the margin indicators.
>
> (There's also the case of a GUI frame without fringes, but it could be
> handled as if it were a TTY frame.)
>
> WDYT?

Good idea, that seems to work in my testing.

One issue, though, is bad interactions with other packages which want to
use the margin.

Namely: if some package wants to use the margin in a GUI frame, then
either we force the margin width to zero and break that package, or we
let the other package set a non-zero margin width and then our margin
indicators show up.

Maybe there's some other way we could hide the margin indicators on GUI
frames, other than just setting the margin width to 0?

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Subject: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are erroneously using margins
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On 15/10/2025 20:31, Spencer Baugh wrote:

>> Perhaps we could use the
>>
>>    (when condition . spec)
>>
>> form of the display spec? Then it would take two overlays, though,
>> which would provide specs for graphic and non-graphic.
> 
> Great idea.
> 
> It looks like having a list of conditions also works, e.g.
> 
> (propertize "foo" 'display
>    '((when (not (display-graphic-p)) . "tty")
>      (when (display-graphic-p) . "gui")))
> 
> successfully shows "tty" when the buffer is displayed in a tty frame,
> and "gui" when displayed in a graphical frame.

Huh, it hadn't occurred to me to try a list. When the conditions are 
exhaustive, the " " thing can be a non-issue.

> So we don't need two overlays, just one would work, with this method.
> 
> Though, when the buffer is displayed in both frames at the same time,
> what's displayed depends on the frame which was last interacted-with
> (and therefore last redisplayed).

Personally, that sounds like a rare configuration, an even when that 
happens the user would probably continue to work on the buffer in the 
same frame (rather than switching back and forth), so they won't 
experience most of the downside.

So I would choose it as the "worse is better" kind of solution.

> That's a little ugly.  It looks like having two overlays instead avoids
> that problem, so maybe we would want to do that.

Maybe we could later alter the engine somehow to evaluate the conditions 
in all frames or something. I've no idea sure how difficult that is.

>> If the conditions are evaluated repeatedly when displaying the same
>> buffer in different windows, could be fine. There is a minor issue,
>> though, that when condition evaluates to nil, the " " string used as a
>> based becomes the overlay's display value. Maybe we could do something
>> about that.
> 
> Ah, you're right.  And an empty string doesn't work:
> 
> (overlay-put (make-overlay 1 10 (current-buffer)) 'before-string (propertize "" 'display "foo"))
> 
> This just displays nothing, because of course an empty string can't have
> text properties.

Right.

> So, I guess, maybe we could just put the display properties on an empty
> overlay?
> 
> (overlay-put (make-overlay 1 1 (current-buffer)) 'display "foo")
> 
> Alas, that also displays nothing.  Perhaps that's something we could
> change, though?

IIUC this will not help because the fringe spec needs to be in a 
'display' property on some string.

Here's also an example from the manual, which should have been shorter 
if putting a fringe spec on an overlay directly worked fine:

   (overlay-put
    (make-overlay (point) (point))
    'before-string (propertize
                    "x" 'display
                    `(left-fringe right-arrow warning)))

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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>,  joaotavora@HIDDEN,
>    77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  dmitry@HIDDEN
> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 16:02:34 -0400
> 
> >   . the overlay specifies indications both for the fringe and for the
> >     margin, like this:
> >
> >      (let ((o (make-overlay 72 73)))
> >        (overlay-put
> > 	o 'before-string
> > 	(propertize
> > 	 "!" 'display
> > 	 '(left-fringe flymake-double-exclamation-mark error)))
> >        (overlay-put
> > 	o 'after-string
> > 	(propertize
> > 	 "?" 'display
> > 	 `((margin left-margin) ,(propertize ">" 'face 'error)))))
> >
> >    . on GUI frames, we force the margin width to zero
> >    . on TTY frames, we force the margin to a positive value
> >
> > Then on GUI frames, we will only see the fringe indicators, and on TTY
> > frames only the margin indicators.
> >
> > (There's also the case of a GUI frame without fringes, but it could be
> > handled as if it were a TTY frame.)
> >
> > WDYT?
> 
> Good idea, that seems to work in my testing.
> 
> One issue, though, is bad interactions with other packages which want to
> use the margin.
> 
> Namely: if some package wants to use the margin in a GUI frame, then
> either we force the margin width to zero and break that package, or we
> let the other package set a non-zero margin width and then our margin
> indicators show up.

Which packages that could be turned ON together with Flymake are
those?  How much of the margin space do they use when turned ON?

> Maybe there's some other way we could hide the margin indicators on GUI
> frames, other than just setting the margin width to 0?

Make the indicator string wider than the margin, by prepending leading
spaces and the indicator character at its end?

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> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 02:50:59 +0300
> Cc: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
>  joaotavora@HIDDEN, 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN>
> 
> Maybe we could later alter the engine somehow to evaluate the conditions 
> in all frames or something. I've no idea sure how difficult that is.

See the last paragraph of "Other Display Specs": this non-evaluation
is inherent to the display code, since it only examines the parts of
text where it has some reason to believe that changes were made.
Changes that affect conditions of display specs are not considered.

> > So, I guess, maybe we could just put the display properties on an empty
> > overlay?
> > 
> > (overlay-put (make-overlay 1 1 (current-buffer)) 'display "foo")
> > 
> > Alas, that also displays nothing.  Perhaps that's something we could
> > change, though?
> 
> IIUC this will not help because the fringe spec needs to be in a 
> 'display' property on some string.
> 
> Here's also an example from the manual, which should have been shorter 
> if putting a fringe spec on an overlay directly worked fine:
> 
>    (overlay-put
>     (make-overlay (point) (point))
>     'before-string (propertize
>                     "x" 'display
>                     `(left-fringe right-arrow warning)))

An overlay _can_ have a 'display' property directly on it, but it must
"cover" some text to have any effect.  An "empty" overlay with a
'display' spec will not do anything because there are no characters to
be replaced on display with what the spec says.  "Empty" overlays can
only have any effect if they specify before-string or after-string.

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>> One issue, though, is bad interactions with other packages which want to
>> use the margin.
>> 
>> Namely: if some package wants to use the margin in a GUI frame, then
>> either we force the margin width to zero and break that package, or we
>> let the other package set a non-zero margin width and then our margin
>> indicators show up.
>
> Which packages that could be turned ON together with Flymake are
> those?  How much of the margin space do they use when turned ON?

For example, outline-minor-mode and hs-minor-mode
that both require one column in margins.

>> Maybe there's some other way we could hide the margin indicators on GUI
>> frames, other than just setting the margin width to 0?
>
> Make the indicator string wider than the margin, by prepending leading
> spaces and the indicator character at its end?

Then how to make it shorter when need to show the indicator?

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> From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>,  joaotavora@HIDDEN,
>   77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  dmitry@HIDDEN
> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 09:53:39 +0300
> 
> >> Maybe there's some other way we could hide the margin indicators on GUI
> >> frames, other than just setting the margin width to 0?
> >
> > Make the indicator string wider than the margin, by prepending leading
> > spaces and the indicator character at its end?
> 
> Then how to make it shorter when need to show the indicator?

On GUI frames, we never need to show it in the margin, right?

So, if we expect, say, 2 columns be taken by outline-minor-mode and
hs-minor-mode, make the margin indicator of Flymake 3-column wide.

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On 16/10/2025 08:33, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 02:50:59 +0300
>> Cc: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
>>   joaotavora@HIDDEN, 77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> From: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN>
>>
>> Maybe we could later alter the engine somehow to evaluate the conditions
>> in all frames or something. I've no idea sure how difficult that is.
> 
> See the last paragraph of "Other Display Specs": this non-evaluation
> is inherent to the display code, since it only examines the parts of
> text where it has some reason to believe that changes were made.
> Changes that affect conditions of display specs are not considered.

I mean yes, the current behavior is fair and compliant.

Graphical/non-graphical terminals are fairly different, so it might make 
sense to redo some checks between terminals anyway.

>>> So, I guess, maybe we could just put the display properties on an empty
>>> overlay?
>>>
>>> (overlay-put (make-overlay 1 1 (current-buffer)) 'display "foo")
>>>
>>> Alas, that also displays nothing.  Perhaps that's something we could
>>> change, though?
>>
>> IIUC this will not help because the fringe spec needs to be in a
>> 'display' property on some string.
>>
>> Here's also an example from the manual, which should have been shorter
>> if putting a fringe spec on an overlay directly worked fine:
>>
>>     (overlay-put
>>      (make-overlay (point) (point))
>>      'before-string (propertize
>>                      "x" 'display
>>                      `(left-fringe right-arrow warning)))
> 
> An overlay _can_ have a 'display' property directly on it, but it must
> "cover" some text to have any effect.  An "empty" overlay with a
> 'display' spec will not do anything because there are no characters to
> be replaced on display with what the spec says.  "Empty" overlays can
> only have any effect if they specify before-string or after-string.

And if the overlay covers any text, then it would hide the corresponding 
characters, creating visible glitches.

What we could do is, uh, maybe a new overlay property which would work 
on overlays of 0 length, and would have the same possible values as the 
current display specs (though not all of them might make sense).

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 14:27:54 +0300
> Cc: sbaugh@HIDDEN, juri@HIDDEN, joaotavora@HIDDEN,
>  77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN>
> 
> > An overlay _can_ have a 'display' property directly on it, but it must
> > "cover" some text to have any effect.  An "empty" overlay with a
> > 'display' spec will not do anything because there are no characters to
> > be replaced on display with what the spec says.  "Empty" overlays can
> > only have any effect if they specify before-string or after-string.
> 
> And if the overlay covers any text, then it would hide the corresponding 
> characters, creating visible glitches.

Yes, like 'display' property of this kind always does.

> What we could do is, uh, maybe a new overlay property which would work 
> on overlays of 0 length, and would have the same possible values as the 
> current display specs (though not all of them might make sense).

If we are going to make changes to display code, I'd rather support a
special kind of fringe spec which would automatically switch to using
the margin if the fringe is not available.  That's be easier to use
and will probably be welcome in more applications.  Patches welcome.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> If we are going to make changes to display code, I'd rather support a
> special kind of fringe spec which would automatically switch to using
> the margin if the fringe is not available.  That's be easier to use
> and will probably be welcome in more applications.  Patches welcome.

Something like that would be ideal, if we can decide on a way to do it.

I think what would be best is not falling back to the margin, but some
new "text fringe" which is a better match to the behavior of the
currently-existing bitmap fringe.

- the text fringe is mutually exclusive with the current bitmap fringe:
  only one of them is ever displayed in any window

- like the current bitmap fringe, and unlike the margin, the text fringe
  would only show one fringe spec at a time rather than combining them

- The default size of the text fringe would be 0, but flymake (or other
  applications) could set it to a non-zero size.  This would only affect
  windows which don't have bitmap fringes.  Since the text and bitmap
  fringes are mutually exclusive, flymake would simply enable the text
  fringe unconditionally in flymake-mode or flymake-start: no need to
  check if we're on a GUI frame.

- Fringe specs would have a new optional element at the end of the list
  which specifies the text to show in the text fringe.

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On 16/10/2025 16:01, Spencer Baugh wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> If we are going to make changes to display code, I'd rather support a
>> special kind of fringe spec which would automatically switch to using
>> the margin if the fringe is not available.  That's be easier to use
>> and will probably be welcome in more applications.  Patches welcome.
> 
> Something like that would be ideal, if we can decide on a way to do it.
> 
> I think what would be best is not falling back to the margin, but some
> new "text fringe" which is a better match to the behavior of the
> currently-existing bitmap fringe.
> 
> - the text fringe is mutually exclusive with the current bitmap fringe:
>    only one of them is ever displayed in any window
> 
> - like the current bitmap fringe, and unlike the margin, the text fringe
>    would only show one fringe spec at a time rather than combining them

Don't we want to be able to combine the markers from different sources? 
Like from diff-hl and flymake, say.

> - The default size of the text fringe would be 0, but flymake (or other
>    applications) could set it to a non-zero size.  This would only affect
>    windows which don't have bitmap fringes.  Since the text and bitmap
>    fringes are mutually exclusive, flymake would simply enable the text
>    fringe unconditionally in flymake-mode or flymake-start: no need to
>    check if we're on a GUI frame.

It would be nice to have the text fringe automagically resize when there 
is something to show, instead of having each package decide that it 
needs to enlarge it (and to which size).

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> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN>,  joaotavora@HIDDEN,
>    77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  juri@HIDDEN
> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 09:01:48 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> > If we are going to make changes to display code, I'd rather support a
> > special kind of fringe spec which would automatically switch to using
> > the margin if the fringe is not available.  That's be easier to use
> > and will probably be welcome in more applications.  Patches welcome.
> 
> Something like that would be ideal, if we can decide on a way to do it.
> 
> I think what would be best is not falling back to the margin, but some
> new "text fringe" which is a better match to the behavior of the
> currently-existing bitmap fringe.

That can also be done, but is much more complex and harder, and will
require more invasive changes in the display code.

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Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN> writes:

> On 16/10/2025 16:01, Spencer Baugh wrote:
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>>> If we are going to make changes to display code, I'd rather support a
>>> special kind of fringe spec which would automatically switch to using
>>> the margin if the fringe is not available.  That's be easier to use
>>> and will probably be welcome in more applications.  Patches welcome.
>> Something like that would be ideal, if we can decide on a way to do
>> it.
>> I think what would be best is not falling back to the margin, but
>> some
>> new "text fringe" which is a better match to the behavior of the
>> currently-existing bitmap fringe.
>> - the text fringe is mutually exclusive with the current bitmap
>> fringe:
>>    only one of them is ever displayed in any window
>> - like the current bitmap fringe, and unlike the margin, the text
>> fringe
>>    would only show one fringe spec at a time rather than combining them
>
> Don't we want to be able to combine the markers from different
> sources? Like from diff-hl and flymake, say.

Certainly, but there's no support for combining markers from different
sources for bitmap fringes, right?  And I'm not sure how we ever would
support it.  Which suggests we shouldn't support it for text fringes.

Though, if anyone has a clever idea for combining multiple fringe
bitmaps, it's worth talking about before deciding on this as the model
for text fringes.

>> - The default size of the text fringe would be 0, but flymake (or other
>>    applications) could set it to a non-zero size.  This would only affect
>>    windows which don't have bitmap fringes.  Since the text and bitmap
>>    fringes are mutually exclusive, flymake would simply enable the text
>>    fringe unconditionally in flymake-mode or flymake-start: no need to
>>    check if we're on a GUI frame.
>
> It would be nice to have the text fringe automagically resize when
> there is something to show, instead of having each package decide that
> it needs to enlarge it (and to which size).

I was initially thinking that, but I suspect the straightforward way to
do that in the display engine would be based on the display properties
which are currently on-screen.  Which in turn means that if you scroll
away from a diagnostic, the text fringe would resize back to 0, which
would be annoying, I think.

At the very least, if there were no overlays in the buffer with
diagnostics, the text fringe would be resized back to 0, and resized to
non-zero the first time an overlay is inserted, which seems like it
would be annoying as flymake clears and reinserts diagnostics.

So I think we may indeed just need to have applications explicitly
enable the text fringe, just like they need to resize the margin.  It's
annoying, but it's less bad than the margin case since we don't need to
accomodate multiple different identifiers showing up in the text fringe,
and resizing it to the sum of the lengths of all of those.

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

> On GUI frames, we never need to show it in the margin, right?
>
> So, if we expect, say, 2 columns be taken by outline-minor-mode and
> hs-minor-mode, make the margin indicator of Flymake 3-column wide.

Here is the patch that shows the margins only on a tty frame
or on a graphical frame without fringes.  It keeps all existing
margins enabled by outline-minor-mode and hs-minor-mode.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-diff
Content-Disposition: inline; filename=flymake-autoresize-margins.patch

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 88ebf1ccd97..735c37f020f 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -319,11 +320,6 @@ flymake-timer
 (defvar-local flymake-check-start-time nil
   "Time at which syntax check was started.")
 
-(defvar-local flymake--original-margin-width nil
-  "Store original margin width.
-Used by `flymake--resize-margins' for restoring original margin width
-when flymake is turned off.")
-
 (defun flymake--log-1 (level sublog msg &rest args)
   "Do actual work for `flymake-log'."
   (let (;; never popup the log buffer
@@ -874,17 +870,15 @@ flymake--indicator-overlay-spec
                                             #'flymake-show-buffer-diagnostics)
                                            map))))))))
 
-(defun flymake--resize-margins (&optional orig-width)
-  "Resize current window margins according to `flymake-margin-indicator-position'.
-Return to original margin width if ORIG-WIDTH is non-nil."
-  (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
-             flymake-autoresize-margins)
-    (cond
-     ((and orig-width flymake--original-margin-width)
-      (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
-          (setq left-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width)
-        (setq right-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width)))
-     (t
+(defun flymake--resize-margins (window)
+  "Resize current window margins according to `flymake-margin-indicator-position'."
+  (if (and flymake-mode
+           flymake-autoresize-margins
+           (or (eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
+               (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes-margins)
+                    (not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+                           (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
+                           (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))))))
       (let* ((indicators
               (mapcar (lambda (sym)
                         (let ((ind (get sym 'flymake-margin-string)))
@@ -895,15 +889,15 @@ flymake--resize-margins
                           (car ind)))
                       '(flymake-error flymake-warning flymake-note)))
              (width (apply #'max (mapcar #'string-width indicators))))
-        (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
-            (setq flymake--original-margin-width left-margin-width
-                  left-margin-width width)
-          (setq flymake--original-margin-width right-margin-width
-                right-margin-width width)))))
-    ;; Apply margin to all windows available.
-    (mapc (lambda (x)
-            (set-window-buffer x (window-buffer x)))
-          (get-buffer-window-list nil nil 'visible))))
+        (set-window-margins
+         window
+         (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
+             (+ width left-margin-width)
+           left-margin-width)
+         (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'right-margin)
+             (+ width right-margin-width)
+           right-margin-width)))
+    (set-window-margins window left-margin-width right-margin-width)))
 
 (defun flymake--equal-diagnostic-p (a b)
   "Tell if A and B are equivalent `flymake--diag' objects."
@@ -1509,7 +1521,9 @@ flymake-mode
     (add-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t t)
 
     ;; AutoResize margins.
-    (flymake--resize-margins)
+    (when flymake-autoresize-margins
+      (mapc #'flymake--resize-margins (get-buffer-window-list nil nil t))
+      (add-hook 'window-buffer-change-functions #'flymake--resize-margins nil t))
 
     ;; We can't just `clrhash' `flymake--state': there may be in
     ;; in-transit requests from other backends if `flymake-mode' was
@@ -1528,7 +1542,9 @@ flymake-mode
     (remove-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t)
 
     ;; return margin to original size
-    (flymake--resize-margins t)
+    (when flymake-autoresize-margins
+      (mapc #'flymake--resize-margins (get-buffer-window-list nil nil t)))
+    (remove-hook 'window-buffer-change-functions #'flymake--resize-margins t)
 
     (when flymake-timer
       (cancel-timer flymake-timer)

--=-=-=--

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

>> So we don't need two overlays, just one would work, with this method.
>> Though, when the buffer is displayed in both frames at the same time,
>> what's displayed depends on the frame which was last interacted-with
>> (and therefore last redisplayed).
>
> Personally, that sounds like a rare configuration, an even when that
> happens the user would probably continue to work on the buffer in the same
> frame (rather than switching back and forth), so they won't experience most
> of the downside.

I agree that it's a very rare situation when someone would prefer
looking at the same buffer in two side-by-side graphical and tty frames.
If we don't need to support such configurations, then below is the best
possible patch with constraints imposed currently by the display engine.

>> That's a little ugly.  It looks like having two overlays instead avoids
>> that problem, so maybe we would want to do that.
>
> Maybe we could later alter the engine somehow to evaluate the conditions in
> all frames or something. I've no idea sure how difficult that is.

I have some ideas for a less invasive refactoring of flymake
to use multiple overlays per indicator if needed.

But first let's see if Spencer agrees to the following patch:


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-diff
Content-Disposition: inline; filename=fringes-margins.patch

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 88ebf1ccd97..735c37f020f 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,7 +185,7 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
 
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes-margins
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
 
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
@@ -200,6 +200,7 @@ flymake-indicator-type
   :version "31.1"
   :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
                  (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
+                 (const :tag "Use both with fallback" fringes-margins)
                  (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))
 
 (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
@@ -1012,7 +1006,25 @@ flymake--highlight-line
                   (overlay-put ov prop (flymake--lookup-type-property
                                         type prop value)))))
       (default-maybe 'face 'flymake-error)
-      (default-maybe 'before-string (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type))
+      (default-maybe 'before-string
+                     (if (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes-margins)
+                         (propertize
+                          "!" 'display
+                          `((when (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+                                    (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
+                                    (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))
+                              . ,(get-text-property
+                                  0 'display
+                                  (let ((flymake-indicator-type 'fringes))
+                                    (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type))))
+                            (when (not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+                                         (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
+                                         (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes))))))
+                              . ,(get-text-property
+                                  0 'display
+                                  (let ((flymake-indicator-type 'margins))
+                                    (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type))))))
+                       (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type)))
       ;; (default-maybe 'after-string
       ;;                (flymake--diag-text diagnostic))
       (default-maybe 'help-echo

--=-=-=--

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Subject: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are erroneously using margins
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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:
>>> So we don't need two overlays, just one would work, with this method.
>>> Though, when the buffer is displayed in both frames at the same time,
>>> what's displayed depends on the frame which was last interacted-with
>>> (and therefore last redisplayed).
>>
>> Personally, that sounds like a rare configuration, an even when that
>> happens the user would probably continue to work on the buffer in the same
>> frame (rather than switching back and forth), so they won't experience most
>> of the downside.
>
> I agree that it's a very rare situation when someone would prefer
> looking at the same buffer in two side-by-side graphical and tty frames.
> If we don't need to support such configurations, then below is the best
> possible patch with constraints imposed currently by the display engine.

Yeah, fair enough.  That isn't a very important case at all, so this is
a pretty good solution.

>>> That's a little ugly.  It looks like having two overlays instead avoids
>>> that problem, so maybe we would want to do that.
>>
>> Maybe we could later alter the engine somehow to evaluate the conditions in
>> all frames or something. I've no idea sure how difficult that is.
>
> I have some ideas for a less invasive refactoring of flymake
> to use multiple overlays per indicator if needed.
>
> But first let's see if Spencer agrees to the following patch:

The basic approach seems reasonable to me.

> diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
> index 88ebf1ccd97..735c37f020f 100644
> --- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
> +++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
> @@ -185,7 +185,7 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
>  		 (const right-fringe)
>  		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
>  
> -(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
> +(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes-margins
>    "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
>  
>  The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
> @@ -200,6 +200,7 @@ flymake-indicator-type
>    :version "31.1"
>    :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
>                   (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
> +                 (const :tag "Use both with fallback" fringes-margins)
>                   (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))
>  
>  (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
> @@ -1012,7 +1006,25 @@ flymake--highlight-line
>                    (overlay-put ov prop (flymake--lookup-type-property
>                                          type prop value)))))
>        (default-maybe 'face 'flymake-error)
> -      (default-maybe 'before-string (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type))
> +      (default-maybe 'before-string
> +                     (if (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes-margins)
> +                         (propertize
> +                          "!" 'display
> +                          `((when (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
> +                                    (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
> +                                    (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))
> +                              . ,(get-text-property
> +                                  0 'display
> +                                  (let ((flymake-indicator-type 'fringes))
> +                                    (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type))))
> +                            (when (not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
> +                                         (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
> +                                         (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes))))))

I think probably we should extract this out to a function to avoid
duplicating it:

  (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
   (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
   (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))

Especially because I think this cl-case won't get macro-expanded when
embedded like this, so I guess we'd be doing that at runtime, every time
we check the condition...

Or alternatively: perhaps we should check
flymake-fringe-indicator-position outside the display condition itself?
There's no need to check flymake-fringe-indicator-position every time
the display condition is re-evaluated, it is just less performant.

So in that case this would look more like:

(let ((use-fringe-condition
       (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
         (left-fringe '(< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
         (right-fringe '(< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))))
 ...
 `((when ,use-fringe-condition ...)
   (when (not ,use-fringe-condition) ...)))

Does that seem reasonable?

> +                              . ,(get-text-property
> +                                  0 'display
> +                                  (let ((flymake-indicator-type 'margins))
> +                                    (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type))))))
> +                       (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type)))
>        ;; (default-maybe 'after-string
>        ;;                (flymake--diag-text diagnostic))
>        (default-maybe 'help-echo

We still will also need an enhancement of flymake--resize-margins to
only resize margins in windows that need it, right?  Which probably
needs a window-buffer-change-functions hook?

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From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
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 <86v7koaaja.fsf@HIDDEN> <87347sh85u.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>> On GUI frames, we never need to show it in the margin, right?
>>
>> So, if we expect, say, 2 columns be taken by outline-minor-mode and
>> hs-minor-mode, make the margin indicator of Flymake 3-column wide.
>
> Here is the patch that shows the margins only on a tty frame
> or on a graphical frame without fringes.  It keeps all existing
> margins enabled by outline-minor-mode and hs-minor-mode.

Thanks, this seems right to me.

> diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
> index 88ebf1ccd97..735c37f020f 100644
> --- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
> +++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
> @@ -319,11 +320,6 @@ flymake-timer
>  (defvar-local flymake-check-start-time nil
>    "Time at which syntax check was started.")
>  
> -(defvar-local flymake--original-margin-width nil
> -  "Store original margin width.
> -Used by `flymake--resize-margins' for restoring original margin width
> -when flymake is turned off.")
> -
>  (defun flymake--log-1 (level sublog msg &rest args)
>    "Do actual work for `flymake-log'."
>    (let (;; never popup the log buffer
> @@ -874,17 +870,15 @@ flymake--indicator-overlay-spec
>                                              #'flymake-show-buffer-diagnostics)
>                                             map))))))))
>  
> -(defun flymake--resize-margins (&optional orig-width)
> -  "Resize current window margins according to `flymake-margin-indicator-position'.
> -Return to original margin width if ORIG-WIDTH is non-nil."
> -  (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
> -             flymake-autoresize-margins)
> -    (cond
> -     ((and orig-width flymake--original-margin-width)
> -      (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
> -          (setq left-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width)
> -        (setq right-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width)))
> -     (t
> +(defun flymake--resize-margins (window)
> +  "Resize current window margins according to `flymake-margin-indicator-position'."
> +  (if (and flymake-mode
> +           flymake-autoresize-margins
> +           (or (eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
> +               (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes-margins)
> +                    (not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
> +                           (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
> +                           (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))))))
>        (let* ((indicators
>                (mapcar (lambda (sym)
>                          (let ((ind (get sym 'flymake-margin-string)))
> @@ -895,15 +889,15 @@ flymake--resize-margins
>                            (car ind)))
>                        '(flymake-error flymake-warning flymake-note)))
>               (width (apply #'max (mapcar #'string-width indicators))))
> -        (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
> -            (setq flymake--original-margin-width left-margin-width
> -                  left-margin-width width)
> -          (setq flymake--original-margin-width right-margin-width
> -                right-margin-width width)))))
> -    ;; Apply margin to all windows available.
> -    (mapc (lambda (x)
> -            (set-window-buffer x (window-buffer x)))
> -          (get-buffer-window-list nil nil 'visible))))
> +        (set-window-margins
> +         window
> +         (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
> +             (+ width left-margin-width)
> +           left-margin-width)
> +         (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'right-margin)
> +             (+ width right-margin-width)
> +           right-margin-width)))
> +    (set-window-margins window left-margin-width right-margin-width)))

Hm... should we instead just substract our added margin width from the
current margin width, in the else case?

Otherwise, if there's two packages that both use the same approach of
only adjusting the window margin width, then when one of those packages
is turned off it will reset the window margins to match the buffer-local
margin width.  Which will undo the other package's modification of the
window margin width.

>  
>  (defun flymake--equal-diagnostic-p (a b)
>    "Tell if A and B are equivalent `flymake--diag' objects."
> @@ -1509,7 +1521,9 @@ flymake-mode
>      (add-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t t)
>  
>      ;; AutoResize margins.
> -    (flymake--resize-margins)
> +    (when flymake-autoresize-margins
> +      (mapc #'flymake--resize-margins (get-buffer-window-list nil nil t))
> +      (add-hook 'window-buffer-change-functions #'flymake--resize-margins nil t))
>  
>      ;; We can't just `clrhash' `flymake--state': there may be in
>      ;; in-transit requests from other backends if `flymake-mode' was
> @@ -1528,7 +1542,9 @@ flymake-mode
>      (remove-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t)
>  
>      ;; return margin to original size
> -    (flymake--resize-margins t)
> +    (when flymake-autoresize-margins
> +      (mapc #'flymake--resize-margins (get-buffer-window-list nil nil t)))
> +    (remove-hook 'window-buffer-change-functions #'flymake--resize-margins t)
>  
>      (when flymake-timer
>        (cancel-timer flymake-timer)

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> I think probably we should extract this out to a function to avoid
> duplicating it:
>
>   (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
>    (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
>    (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))
>
> Especially because I think this cl-case won't get macro-expanded when
> embedded like this, so I guess we'd be doing that at runtime, every time
> we check the condition...
>
> Or alternatively: perhaps we should check
> flymake-fringe-indicator-position outside the display condition itself?
> There's no need to check flymake-fringe-indicator-position every time
> the display condition is re-evaluated, it is just less performant.
>
> So in that case this would look more like:
>
> (let ((use-fringe-condition
>        (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
>          (left-fringe '(< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
>          (right-fringe '(< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))))
>  ...
>  `((when ,use-fringe-condition ...)
>    (when (not ,use-fringe-condition) ...)))
>
> Does that seem reasonable?

It would be interesting to achieve maximum optimization.
We could definitely rely on 'flymake-fringe-indicator-position'
being constant within the same flymake highlighting.

But the call to 'window-fringes' probably should be performed
on every redisplay to be able to catch the moment when fringes
become unavailable.

>> +                              . ,(get-text-property
>> +                                  0 'display
>> +                                  (let ((flymake-indicator-type 'margins))
>> +                                    (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type))))))
>> +                       (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type)))
>>        ;; (default-maybe 'after-string
>>        ;;                (flymake--diag-text diagnostic))
>>        (default-maybe 'help-echo
>
> We still will also need an enhancement of flymake--resize-margins to
> only resize margins in windows that need it, right?  Which probably
> needs a window-buffer-change-functions hook?

Yes, both patches are related.

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>> +        (set-window-margins
>> +         window
>> +         (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
>> +             (+ width left-margin-width)
>> +           left-margin-width)
>> +         (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'right-margin)
>> +             (+ width right-margin-width)
>> +           right-margin-width)))
>> +    (set-window-margins window left-margin-width right-margin-width)))
>
> Hm... should we instead just substract our added margin width from the
> current margin width, in the else case?
>
> Otherwise, if there's two packages that both use the same approach of
> only adjusting the window margin width, then when one of those packages
> is turned off it will reset the window margins to match the buffer-local
> margin width.  Which will undo the other package's modification of the
> window margin width.

Other packages like outline-minor-mode set the buffer-local variable
'left-margin-width'.  So the 'else' case just sets the window margins
back to the value of 'left-margin-width' that is either 0 by default,
and a positive number set by other packages.

But flymake needs to update the window margins directly by adding its
own width, since it's called from the hook 'window-buffer-change-functions'
and should react to the window changes.  Only this logic can handle
such case that a tty window should resize the window margins,
whereas a graphical windows with fringes will keep the default
margin width set by other packages via the buffer-local variable
'left-margin-width'.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>>> +        (set-window-margins
>>> +         window
>>> +         (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
>>> +             (+ width left-margin-width)
>>> +           left-margin-width)
>>> +         (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'right-margin)
>>> +             (+ width right-margin-width)
>>> +           right-margin-width)))
>>> +    (set-window-margins window left-margin-width right-margin-width)))
>>
>> Hm... should we instead just substract our added margin width from the
>> current margin width, in the else case?
>>
>> Otherwise, if there's two packages that both use the same approach of
>> only adjusting the window margin width, then when one of those packages
>> is turned off it will reset the window margins to match the buffer-local
>> margin width.  Which will undo the other package's modification of the
>> window margin width.
>
> Other packages like outline-minor-mode set the buffer-local variable
> 'left-margin-width'.  So the 'else' case just sets the window margins
> back to the value of 'left-margin-width' that is either 0 by default,
> and a positive number set by other packages.
>
> But flymake needs to update the window margins directly by adding its
> own width, since it's called from the hook 'window-buffer-change-functions'
> and should react to the window changes.  Only this logic can handle
> such case that a tty window should resize the window margins,
> whereas a graphical windows with fringes will keep the default
> margin width set by other packages via the buffer-local variable
> 'left-margin-width'.

But what about other packages which also want to use margins only in tty
windows, like hideshow or diff-hl?

They won't be setting left-margin-width, they will (presumably) also be
setting the window margin width in a hook on
window-buffer-change-functions, with basically identical logic.

If flymake resets the window margin width to left-margin-width, won't it
break these other packages?

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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>> I think probably we should extract this out to a function to avoid
>> duplicating it:
>>
>>   (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
>>    (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
>>    (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))
>>
>> Especially because I think this cl-case won't get macro-expanded when
>> embedded like this, so I guess we'd be doing that at runtime, every time
>> we check the condition...
>>
>> Or alternatively: perhaps we should check
>> flymake-fringe-indicator-position outside the display condition itself?
>> There's no need to check flymake-fringe-indicator-position every time
>> the display condition is re-evaluated, it is just less performant.
>>
>> So in that case this would look more like:
>>
>> (let ((use-fringe-condition
>>        (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
>>          (left-fringe '(< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes))))
>>          (right-fringe '(< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes)))))))
>>  ...
>>  `((when ,use-fringe-condition ...)
>>    (when (not ,use-fringe-condition) ...)))
>>
>> Does that seem reasonable?
>
> It would be interesting to achieve maximum optimization.
> We could definitely rely on 'flymake-fringe-indicator-position'
> being constant within the same flymake highlighting.
>
> But the call to 'window-fringes' probably should be performed
> on every redisplay to be able to catch the moment when fringes
> become unavailable.

Agreed.

>>> +                              . ,(get-text-property
>>> +                                  0 'display
>>> +                                  (let ((flymake-indicator-type 'margins))
>>> +                                    (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type))))))
>>> +                       (flymake--indicator-overlay-spec type)))
>>>        ;; (default-maybe 'after-string
>>>        ;;                (flymake--diag-text diagnostic))
>>>        (default-maybe 'help-echo
>>
>> We still will also need an enhancement of flymake--resize-margins to
>> only resize margins in windows that need it, right?  Which probably
>> needs a window-buffer-change-functions hook?
>
> Yes, both patches are related.

Right, makes sense, just didn't notice the other one at first.

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From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <iercy6mitzk.fsf@HIDDEN>
Organization: LINKOV.NET
References: <CALDnm52wZ5W-7QfnWv9OuRAjsoeGHiMoDLQv9Ymd-7oL2ag1nA@HIDDEN>
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> But what about other packages which also want to use margins only in tty
> windows, like hideshow or diff-hl?
>
> They won't be setting left-margin-width, they will (presumably) also be
> setting the window margin width in a hook on
> window-buffer-change-functions, with basically identical logic.
>
> If flymake resets the window margin width to left-margin-width, won't it
> break these other packages?

There is currently no way for two packages to update the window margin
because it's not known whether the current window margin was set
from the variable left-margin-width or explicitly by calling
set-window-margins from another package.

So we need to design a new feature.  For example, we could add
a new hook-like variable that contains a list of functions added
by different packages.  Each function returns the margin width required
by each package.  Then their sum is set as the window margin width.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>> But what about other packages which also want to use margins only in tty
>> windows, like hideshow or diff-hl?
>>
>> They won't be setting left-margin-width, they will (presumably) also be
>> setting the window margin width in a hook on
>> window-buffer-change-functions, with basically identical logic.
>>
>> If flymake resets the window margin width to left-margin-width, won't it
>> break these other packages?
>
> There is currently no way for two packages to update the window margin
> because it's not known whether the current window margin was set
> from the variable left-margin-width or explicitly by calling
> set-window-margins from another package.
>
> So we need to design a new feature.  For example, we could add
> a new hook-like variable that contains a list of functions added
> by different packages.  Each function returns the margin width required
> by each package.  Then their sum is set as the window margin width.

Yes, I was thinking we might want something like that.  Maybe called
window-margin-functions.

That design sounds good to me, but maybe others have objections.

How would {left,right}-margin-width be incorporated into
window-margin-functions?  Perhaps window-margin-functions could have a
default value of '(buffer-margin-width), where buffer-margin-width is a
function which returns (cons left-margin-width right-margin-width).

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Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN> writes:

> That design sounds good to me, but maybe others have objections.

I think I've seen about two handful of ideas pop up in this thread in
the last few days, some more promising than others, but all interesting.
I think this is great.  It's somewhat flattering to see a piece of
software I (re)wrote from scratch be the target of so much creativity
(pardon the pretension!).

The one thing I haven't seen is a patch that unbreak the current broken
state of lisp/progmodes/flymake.el for TTY users.

From a brief read, I thought that patch by Juri Linkov that make
flymake-indicator-type be 'fringes-margin' by default and does the
decision in flymake--highlight-line would fix the problem, but I've just
tried and it doesn't.  Maybe that patch isn't finished??=20=20

It fails for this basic case

   emacs -Q -nw --eval '(setq trusted-content :all)' --eval '(insert "\nboo=
!")' -f flymake-mode

This shows an indicator in the margin for Emacs 30, but not in master.

Otherwise it looks like a perfectly valid idea to do it there, and I
encourage you to push it.  Maybe I'll try my hand at tweaking it.

Now, I might be wrong, but reading some of the messages and proposals,
at least one or two seems to be glossing over one very important and
basic fact, which is that Flymake (like ElDoc, Eglot, and many others)
is a GNU ELPA :core package.  It has a "Package-Requires: Emacs 26.1"
header.

This has some implications:

* If a version Flymake 1.4.2 were cut today the problem would
  automatically affect all users using Flymake 1.4.1.

* You can certainly bump that "Package-Requires"to 27 or 28 if it's
  useful, but even then it means any idea that relies on adding new
  machinery to the core must also take into account that that flymake.el
  will routinely be loaded in Emacsen that don't posess that machinery.
  The usual solution here is to add compatibility shims, if expressions,
  compat.el, or ponder carefully whether you cannot really make do with
  the longstanding bits of machinery from older versions and whether the
  complexity is worth it at all.

* This goes for C or Elisp machinery.  C is much more problematic.  For
  new bits of Elisp-only library, a newlib.el can be made a :core
  package itself and require whichever Emacs version Flymake also
  requires.

So again, I'm flattered that you are having so many ideas, but please
consider pushing either my patch which unambigously improves the current
situation.  Or some other patch (I suggest a variation on Juri's) that
does the same (and hopefully is simple enough in nature to follow the
above hard requirement).

Jo=C3=A3o

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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
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Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:

> encourage you to push it.  Maybe I'll try my hand at tweaking it.

I tried to do this and made some progress (also cleaning up the code).
But it still needs the conditional "just-in-time" margin resize code if
it's to pass the "daemon + config that runs flymake + graphical client"
case.

I attach an improved version of my earlier patch with Juri's idea of a
new value for 'flymake-indicator-type' (which I called 'auto' instead of
'fringes-margins', but I don't care that much).  I also cleaned up the
code and some existing documentation.

Installing this patch does not in any way end to your discussion about
more elegant alternatives.  I think Eli's idea of a display spec that
does the right thing the most promising (but it will have to be
special-cased so Flymake can work with older Emacsen).

Jo=C3=A3o

diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 8b6d477c385..da2bf9638d3 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,21 +185,24 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
=20
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'auto
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
=20
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
-the symbol `fringes' (use fringes) or the symbol `margins' (use
-margins).
+the symbol `fringes' (use fringes), the symbol `margins' (use margins),
+or the symbol `auto' to automatically guess.
=20
 Difference between fringes and margin is that fringes support displaying
 bitmaps on graphical displays and margins display text in a blank area
 from current buffer that works in both graphical and text displays.
+When margins are selected, Flymake may need to resize them for each
+buffer.  See `flymake-autoresize-margins'.
=20
 See Info node `Fringes' and Info node `(elisp)Display Margins'."
   :version "31.1"
   :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
                  (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
+                 (const :tag "Guess" auto)
                  (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))
=20
 (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
@@ -222,7 +225,7 @@ flymake-margin-indicators-string
                        (face :tag "Face"))))
=20
 (defcustom flymake-autoresize-margins t
-  "If non-nil, automatically resize margin-width calling `flymake--resize-=
margins'.
+  "If non-nil, automatically resize margin-width.
=20
 Only relevant if `flymake-indicator-type' is set to margins."
   :version "30.1"
@@ -833,7 +836,8 @@ flymake--severity
                                  (warning-numeric-level :error)))
=20
 (defun flymake--indicator-overlay-spec (type)
-  "Return INDICATOR as propertized string to use in error indicators."
+  "Return propertized string for an overlay's `before-string'.
+The overlay will represent a diagnostic of type TYPE."
   (let* ((indicator (flymake--lookup-type-property
                      type
                      (cond ((eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)
@@ -870,26 +874,35 @@ flymake--indicator-overlay-spec
                                             #'flymake-show-buffer-diagnost=
ics)
                                            map))))))))
=20
-(defun flymake--resize-margins (&optional orig-width)
-  "Resize current window margins according to `flymake-margin-indicator-po=
sition'.
-Return to original margin width if ORIG-WIDTH is non-nil."
-  (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
-             flymake-autoresize-margins)
-    (cond
-     ((and orig-width flymake--original-margin-width)
-      (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
-          (setq left-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width)
-        (setq right-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width)))
-     (t
-      (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
-          (setq flymake--original-margin-width left-margin-width
-		left-margin-width 2)
-        (setq flymake--original-margin-width right-margin-width
-	      right-margin-width 2))))
-    ;; Apply margin to all windows available.
-    (mapc (lambda (x)
-            (set-window-buffer x (window-buffer x)))
-          (get-buffer-window-list nil nil 'visible))))
+(defun flymake--use-margins-maybe (window)
+  "Super-special heuristic to guess margins instead of fringes." ; bug#773=
13
+  (when (eq flymake-indicator-type 'auto)
+    (cond ((not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+                 (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes window))))
+                 (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes window))))))
+           ;; No fringes in window, fallback to margins and auto-resize
+           (setq-local flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
+           (when flymake-autoresize-margins
+             (flymake--resize-margins)))
+          (t
+           ;; suitable fringes, locally set the decision
+           (setq-local flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)))))
+
+(defun flymake--restore-margins ()
+  (when flymake--original-margin-width
+    (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
+        (setq left-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width)
+      (setq right-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width))))
+
+(defun flymake--resize-margins ()
+  (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
+      (setq flymake--original-margin-width left-margin-width
+            left-margin-width 2)
+    (setq flymake--original-margin-width right-margin-width
+          right-margin-width 2))
+  (mapc (lambda (x)
+          (set-window-buffer x (window-buffer x)))
+        (get-buffer-window-list nil nil 'visible)))
=20
 (defun flymake--equal-diagnostic-p (a b)
   "Tell if A and B are equivalent `flymake--diag' objects."
@@ -1366,8 +1379,11 @@ flymake-start
                     deferred))
         (buffer (current-buffer)))
     (cl-labels
-        ((start-post-command
-          ()
+        ((visible-buffer-window ()
+           (and (or (not (daemonp))
+                    (not (null (frame-parameter nil 'client))))
+                (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))))
+         (start-post-command ()
           (remove-hook 'post-command-hook #'start-post-command
                        nil)
           ;; The buffer may have disappeared already, e.g. because of
@@ -1375,22 +1391,26 @@ flymake-start
           (when (buffer-live-p buffer)
             (with-current-buffer buffer
               (flymake-start (remove 'post-command deferred) force))))
-         (start-on-display
-          ()
+         (start-on-display ()
           (remove-hook 'window-configuration-change-hook #'start-on-display
                        'local)
-          (flymake-start (remove 'on-display deferred) force)))
+          ;; Double check that buffer is actually visible (bug#77313)
+          (if (visible-buffer-window)
+              (setq deferred (remove 'on-display deferred)))
+          (flymake-start deferred force)))
       (cond ((and (memq 'post-command deferred)
                   this-command)
              (add-hook 'post-command-hook
                        #'start-post-command
                        'append nil))
             ((and (memq 'on-display deferred)
-                  (not (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))))
+                  (not (visible-buffer-window)))
              (add-hook 'window-configuration-change-hook
                        #'start-on-display
                        'append 'local))
             (flymake-mode
+             (when-let* ((w (visible-buffer-window)))
+               (flymake--use-margins-maybe w))
              (setq flymake-check-start-time (float-time))
              (let ((backend-args
                     (and
@@ -1494,8 +1514,9 @@ flymake-mode
     (add-hook 'kill-buffer-hook 'flymake-kill-buffer-hook nil t)
     (add-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t t)
=20
-    ;; AutoResize margins.
-    (flymake--resize-margins)
+    ;; Maybe auto-resize margins
+    (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins) flymake-autoresize-mar=
gins)
+      (flymake--resize-margins))
=20
     ;; We can't just `clrhash' `flymake--state': there may be in
     ;; in-transit requests from other backends if `flymake-mode' was
@@ -1513,8 +1534,8 @@ flymake-mode
     ;;+(remove-hook 'find-file-hook (function flymake-find-file-hook) t)
     (remove-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t)
=20
-    ;; return margin to original size
-    (flymake--resize-margins t)
+    ;; return any resized margin to original size
+    (flymake--restore-margins)
=20
     (when flymake-timer
       (cancel-timer flymake-timer)
diff --git a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
index 8b6d477c385..da2bf9638d3 100644
--- a/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
+++ b/lisp/progmodes/flymake.el
@@ -185,21 +185,24 @@ flymake-fringe-indicator-position
 		 (const right-fringe)
 		 (const :tag "No fringe indicators" nil)))
=20
-(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'fringes
+(defcustom flymake-indicator-type 'auto
   "Indicate which indicator type to use for display errors.
=20
 The value can be nil (don't indicate errors but just highlight them),
-the symbol `fringes' (use fringes) or the symbol `margins' (use
-margins).
+the symbol `fringes' (use fringes), the symbol `margins' (use margins),
+or the symbol `auto' to automatically guess.
=20
 Difference between fringes and margin is that fringes support displaying
 bitmaps on graphical displays and margins display text in a blank area
 from current buffer that works in both graphical and text displays.
+When margins are selected, Flymake may need to resize them for each
+buffer.  See `flymake-autoresize-margins'.
=20
 See Info node `Fringes' and Info node `(elisp)Display Margins'."
   :version "31.1"
   :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
                  (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
+                 (const :tag "Guess" auto)
                  (const :tag "No indicators" nil)))
=20
 (defcustom flymake-margin-indicators-string
@@ -222,7 +225,7 @@ flymake-margin-indicators-string
                        (face :tag "Face"))))
=20
 (defcustom flymake-autoresize-margins t
-  "If non-nil, automatically resize margin-width calling `flymake--resize-=
margins'.
+  "If non-nil, automatically resize margin-width.
=20
 Only relevant if `flymake-indicator-type' is set to margins."
   :version "30.1"
@@ -833,7 +836,8 @@ flymake--severity
                                  (warning-numeric-level :error)))
=20
 (defun flymake--indicator-overlay-spec (type)
-  "Return INDICATOR as propertized string to use in error indicators."
+  "Return propertized string for an overlay's `before-string'.
+The overlay will represent a diagnostic of type TYPE."
   (let* ((indicator (flymake--lookup-type-property
                      type
                      (cond ((eq flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)
@@ -870,26 +874,35 @@ flymake--indicator-overlay-spec
                                             #'flymake-show-buffer-diagnost=
ics)
                                            map))))))))
=20
-(defun flymake--resize-margins (&optional orig-width)
-  "Resize current window margins according to `flymake-margin-indicator-po=
sition'.
-Return to original margin width if ORIG-WIDTH is non-nil."
-  (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
-             flymake-autoresize-margins)
-    (cond
-     ((and orig-width flymake--original-margin-width)
-      (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
-          (setq left-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width)
-        (setq right-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width)))
-     (t
-      (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
-          (setq flymake--original-margin-width left-margin-width
-		left-margin-width 2)
-        (setq flymake--original-margin-width right-margin-width
-	      right-margin-width 2))))
-    ;; Apply margin to all windows available.
-    (mapc (lambda (x)
-            (set-window-buffer x (window-buffer x)))
-          (get-buffer-window-list nil nil 'visible))))
+(defun flymake--use-margins-maybe (window)
+  "Super-special heuristic to guess margins instead of fringes." ; bug#773=
13
+  (when (eq flymake-indicator-type 'auto)
+    (cond ((not (cl-case flymake-fringe-indicator-position
+                 (left-fringe (< 0 (nth 0 (window-fringes window))))
+                 (right-fringe (< 0 (nth 1 (window-fringes window))))))
+           ;; No fringes in window, fallback to margins and auto-resize
+           (setq-local flymake-indicator-type 'margins)
+           (when flymake-autoresize-margins
+             (flymake--resize-margins)))
+          (t
+           ;; suitable fringes, locally set the decision
+           (setq-local flymake-indicator-type 'fringes)))))
+
+(defun flymake--restore-margins ()
+  (when flymake--original-margin-width
+    (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
+        (setq left-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width)
+      (setq right-margin-width flymake--original-margin-width))))
+
+(defun flymake--resize-margins ()
+  (if (eq flymake-margin-indicator-position 'left-margin)
+      (setq flymake--original-margin-width left-margin-width
+            left-margin-width 2)
+    (setq flymake--original-margin-width right-margin-width
+          right-margin-width 2))
+  (mapc (lambda (x)
+          (set-window-buffer x (window-buffer x)))
+        (get-buffer-window-list nil nil 'visible)))
=20
 (defun flymake--equal-diagnostic-p (a b)
   "Tell if A and B are equivalent `flymake--diag' objects."
@@ -1366,8 +1379,11 @@ flymake-start
                     deferred))
         (buffer (current-buffer)))
     (cl-labels
-        ((start-post-command
-          ()
+        ((visible-buffer-window ()
+           (and (or (not (daemonp))
+                    (not (null (frame-parameter nil 'client))))
+                (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))))
+         (start-post-command ()
           (remove-hook 'post-command-hook #'start-post-command
                        nil)
           ;; The buffer may have disappeared already, e.g. because of
@@ -1375,22 +1391,26 @@ flymake-start
           (when (buffer-live-p buffer)
             (with-current-buffer buffer
               (flymake-start (remove 'post-command deferred) force))))
-         (start-on-display
-          ()
+         (start-on-display ()
           (remove-hook 'window-configuration-change-hook #'start-on-display
                        'local)
-          (flymake-start (remove 'on-display deferred) force)))
+          ;; Double check that buffer is actually visible (bug#77313)
+          (if (visible-buffer-window)
+              (setq deferred (remove 'on-display deferred)))
+          (flymake-start deferred force)))
       (cond ((and (memq 'post-command deferred)
                   this-command)
              (add-hook 'post-command-hook
                        #'start-post-command
                        'append nil))
             ((and (memq 'on-display deferred)
-                  (not (get-buffer-window (current-buffer))))
+                  (not (visible-buffer-window)))
              (add-hook 'window-configuration-change-hook
                        #'start-on-display
                        'append 'local))
             (flymake-mode
+             (when-let* ((w (visible-buffer-window)))
+               (flymake--use-margins-maybe w))
              (setq flymake-check-start-time (float-time))
              (let ((backend-args
                     (and
@@ -1494,8 +1514,9 @@ flymake-mode
     (add-hook 'kill-buffer-hook 'flymake-kill-buffer-hook nil t)
     (add-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t t)
=20
-    ;; AutoResize margins.
-    (flymake--resize-margins)
+    ;; Maybe auto-resize margins
+    (when (and (eq flymake-indicator-type 'margins) flymake-autoresize-mar=
gins)
+      (flymake--resize-margins))
=20
     ;; We can't just `clrhash' `flymake--state': there may be in
     ;; in-transit requests from other backends if `flymake-mode' was
@@ -1513,8 +1534,8 @@ flymake-mode
     ;;+(remove-hook 'find-file-hook (function flymake-find-file-hook) t)
     (remove-hook 'eldoc-documentation-functions 'flymake-eldoc-function t)
=20
-    ;; return margin to original size
-    (flymake--resize-margins t)
+    ;; return any resized margin to original size
+    (flymake--restore-margins)
=20
     (when flymake-timer
       (cancel-timer flymake-timer)

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On 16/10/2025 21:25, Spencer Baugh wrote:
> But what about other packages which also want to use margins only in tty
> windows, like hideshow or diff-hl?
> 
> They won't be setting left-margin-width, they will (presumably) also be
> setting the window margin width in a hook on
> window-buffer-change-functions, with basically identical logic.
> 
> If flymake resets the window margin width to left-margin-width, won't it
> break these other packages?

FWIW, diff-hl sets left-margin-width and follows that with a 
'set-window-buffer' call, for the value to take effect.

That happens in "regular" code, not in window-buffer-change-functions.

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On 16/10/2025 16:57, Spencer Baugh wrote:
> Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
>> On 16/10/2025 16:01, Spencer Baugh wrote:
>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>>>> If we are going to make changes to display code, I'd rather support a
>>>> special kind of fringe spec which would automatically switch to using
>>>> the margin if the fringe is not available.  That's be easier to use
>>>> and will probably be welcome in more applications.  Patches welcome.
>>> Something like that would be ideal, if we can decide on a way to do
>>> it.
>>> I think what would be best is not falling back to the margin, but
>>> some
>>> new "text fringe" which is a better match to the behavior of the
>>> currently-existing bitmap fringe.
>>> - the text fringe is mutually exclusive with the current bitmap
>>> fringe:
>>>     only one of them is ever displayed in any window
>>> - like the current bitmap fringe, and unlike the margin, the text
>>> fringe
>>>     would only show one fringe spec at a time rather than combining them
>>
>> Don't we want to be able to combine the markers from different
>> sources? Like from diff-hl and flymake, say.
> 
> Certainly, but there's no support for combining markers from different
> sources for bitmap fringes, right?  And I'm not sure how we ever would
> support it.  Which suggests we shouldn't support it for text fringes.

I don't know if it's a rendering limitation, or just something we never 
got around to. I remember people also dreaming about svg pictures on 
fringes, those could be the highest fidelity look, but also likely 
incompatible with more toolkits.

Depends on the overall investment one could put into the feature.

> Though, if anyone has a clever idea for combining multiple fringe
> bitmaps, it's worth talking about before deciding on this as the model
> for text fringes.

If the resulting bitmap is allowed to have multiple colors, even simple 
overlaying would suffice, perhaps with priority. E.g. diff-hl bitmaps 
are usually larger and flat, better as a background, whereas flymake's 
bitmaps are smaller and have distinct figures.

So if the latter could be painted on top of the former, it would create 
a recognizable combination. One would have to be able to indicate 
somehow, though, that only one bitmap's background color should be used.

A combination could also be overlaying with a small right-down offset, 
but one would need to fiddle and see how it looks.

Or we extend the fringe's width X times and just paint bitmaps side by 
side. Still depends on the use of multiple colors.

>>> - The default size of the text fringe would be 0, but flymake (or other
>>>     applications) could set it to a non-zero size.  This would only affect
>>>     windows which don't have bitmap fringes.  Since the text and bitmap
>>>     fringes are mutually exclusive, flymake would simply enable the text
>>>     fringe unconditionally in flymake-mode or flymake-start: no need to
>>>     check if we're on a GUI frame.
>>
>> It would be nice to have the text fringe automagically resize when
>> there is something to show, instead of having each package decide that
>> it needs to enlarge it (and to which size).
> 
> I was initially thinking that, but I suspect the straightforward way to
> do that in the display engine would be based on the display properties
> which are currently on-screen.  Which in turn means that if you scroll
> away from a diagnostic, the text fringe would resize back to 0, which
> would be annoying, I think.

Yeah, either on screen, or globally in the buffer.

But if the list of markers inside the buffer could be updated 
asynchronously, and not just in after-save-hook (like it mostly happens 
with diff-hl), that horizontal jump could be annoying.

Still, we could have a buffer-local registry where each package would 
note how much space it needs, and the "registry" would allocate a 
margin, or "advanced fringe", of corresponding total width.

Still would be better than having every package decide on the final 
value of the width.

> At the very least, if there were no overlays in the buffer with
> diagnostics, the text fringe would be resized back to 0, and resized to
> non-zero the first time an overlay is inserted, which seems like it
> would be annoying as flymake clears and reinserts diagnostics.

If it didn't happen asynchronously, could be fine, actually. But with 
async, maybe not.

> So I think we may indeed just need to have applications explicitly
> enable the text fringe, just like they need to resize the margin.  It's
> annoying, but it's less bad than the margin case since we don't need to
> accomodate multiple different identifiers showing up in the text fringe,
> and resizing it to the sum of the lengths of all of those.

If packages need to enable the text fringe, they will probably need to 
disable it as well, when the mode is disabled, and here again we have 
the possibility of stepping on each other's toes...

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> From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>,  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
>   joaotavora@HIDDEN,  77313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 18:22:23 +0300
> 
> @@ -200,6 +200,7 @@ flymake-indicator-type
>    :version "31.1"
>    :type '(choice (const :tag "Use Fringes" fringes)
>                   (const :tag "Use Margins" margins)
> +                 (const :tag "Use both with fallback" fringes-margins)

I think a better tag here is "Use fringes if possible, otherwise
margins".

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> From a brief read, I thought that patch by Juri Linkov that make
> flymake-indicator-type be 'fringes-margin' by default and does the
> decision in flymake--highlight-line would fix the problem, but I've just
> tried and it doesn't.  Maybe that patch isn't finished??  
>
> It fails for this basic case
>
>    emacs -Q -nw --eval '(setq trusted-content :all)' --eval '(insert "\nboo!")' -f flymake-mode
>
> This shows an indicator in the margin for Emacs 30, but not in master.

Because it requires the second patch with 'window-buffer-change-functions'
that I sent earlier.

> Otherwise it looks like a perfectly valid idea to do it there, and I
> encourage you to push it.  Maybe I'll try my hand at tweaking it.

Ok, will push after doing more optimizations, and after finishing
the second patch with 'window-buffer-change-functions'.

> Now, I might be wrong, but reading some of the messages and proposals,
> at least one or two seems to be glossing over one very important and
> basic fact, which is that Flymake (like ElDoc, Eglot, and many others)
> is a GNU ELPA :core package.  It has a "Package-Requires: Emacs 26.1"
> header.

So there is no way for packages to share the margins in older Emacs versions.

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>> But what about other packages which also want to use margins only in tty
>> windows, like hideshow or diff-hl?
>> They won't be setting left-margin-width, they will (presumably) also be
>> setting the window margin width in a hook on
>> window-buffer-change-functions, with basically identical logic.
>> If flymake resets the window margin width to left-margin-width, won't it
>> break these other packages?
>
> FWIW, diff-hl sets left-margin-width and follows that with
> a 'set-window-buffer' call, for the value to take effect.

It should be sufficient to call just

  (set-window-margins nil left-margin-width right-margin-width)

> That happens in "regular" code, not in window-buffer-change-functions.

We could create a new minor mode that updates margin widths depending
on the display capabilities.  But probably it would be simpler just
to require from the packages to add one hook with a new function:

  (add-hook 'window-buffer-change-functions #'update-window-margins nil t)

that will set 'left-margin-width' to the sum of widths required
by all active packages.

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From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2025 09:44:07 +0300
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>> So we need to design a new feature.  For example, we could add
>> a new hook-like variable that contains a list of functions added
>> by different packages.  Each function returns the margin width required
>> by each package.  Then their sum is set as the window margin width.
>
> Yes, I was thinking we might want something like that.  Maybe called
> window-margin-functions.
>
> That design sounds good to me, but maybe others have objections.
>
> How would {left,right}-margin-width be incorporated into
> window-margin-functions?  Perhaps window-margin-functions could have a
> default value of '(buffer-margin-width), where buffer-margin-width is a
> function which returns (cons left-margin-width right-margin-width).

I now think that a new function update-window-margins that will call
the hook window-margin-functions should update the value of
left-margin-width and right-margin-width, and then just do

  (set-window-margins nil left-margin-width right-margin-width)

with updated values.

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X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are erroneously using margins
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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>>> So we need to design a new feature.  For example, we could add
>>> a new hook-like variable that contains a list of functions added
>>> by different packages.  Each function returns the margin width required
>>> by each package.  Then their sum is set as the window margin width.
>>
>> Yes, I was thinking we might want something like that.  Maybe called
>> window-margin-functions.
>>
>> That design sounds good to me, but maybe others have objections.
>>
>> How would {left,right}-margin-width be incorporated into
>> window-margin-functions?  Perhaps window-margin-functions could have a
>> default value of '(buffer-margin-width), where buffer-margin-width is a
>> function which returns (cons left-margin-width right-margin-width).
>
> I now think that a new function update-window-margins that will call
> the hook window-margin-functions should update the value of
> left-margin-width and right-margin-width, and then just do
>
>   (set-window-margins nil left-margin-width right-margin-width)
>
> with updated values.

But setting left-margin-width means the margins will be the same in all
windows.  We want margins to be different between graphical and TTY
windows.

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On 17/10/2025 09:32, Juri Linkov wrote:
>>> But what about other packages which also want to use margins only in tty
>>> windows, like hideshow or diff-hl?
>>> They won't be setting left-margin-width, they will (presumably) also be
>>> setting the window margin width in a hook on
>>> window-buffer-change-functions, with basically identical logic.
>>> If flymake resets the window margin width to left-margin-width, won't it
>>> break these other packages?
>>
>> FWIW, diff-hl sets left-margin-width and follows that with
>> a 'set-window-buffer' call, for the value to take effect.
> 
> It should be sufficient to call just
> 
>    (set-window-margins nil left-margin-width right-margin-width)

Probably. I'm not sure if it's significantly faster than just calling 
'set-window-buffer', though.

>> That happens in "regular" code, not in window-buffer-change-functions.
> 
> We could create a new minor mode that updates margin widths depending
> on the display capabilities.  But probably it would be simpler just
> to require from the packages to add one hook with a new function:
> 
>    (add-hook 'window-buffer-change-functions #'update-window-margins nil t)
> 
> that will set 'left-margin-width' to the sum of widths required
> by all active packages.

Either way it seems like a centralized setting is needed, so that 
'update-window-margins' could be written for that purpose.

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> Otherwise it looks like a perfectly valid idea to do it there, and I
> encourage you to push it.  Maybe I'll try my hand at tweaking it.

Ok, the minimal patch that supports all 4 cases is pushed now.

It uses the '(when CONDITION . SPEC)' display condition added in Emacs 21,
so no problem with backward-compatibility.

But the hook 'window-buffer-change-functions' was added in Emacs 27,
so let's add it with compatibility shims later, after implementing a new
hook 'window-margin-functions' that will also require compatibility shims.

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>>>> So we need to design a new feature.  For example, we could add
>>>> a new hook-like variable that contains a list of functions added
>>>> by different packages.  Each function returns the margin width required
>>>> by each package.  Then their sum is set as the window margin width.
>>>
>>> Yes, I was thinking we might want something like that.  Maybe called
>>> window-margin-functions.
>>>
>>> That design sounds good to me, but maybe others have objections.
>>>
>>> How would {left,right}-margin-width be incorporated into
>>> window-margin-functions?  Perhaps window-margin-functions could have a
>>> default value of '(buffer-margin-width), where buffer-margin-width is a
>>> function which returns (cons left-margin-width right-margin-width).
>>
>> I now think that a new function update-window-margins that will call
>> the hook window-margin-functions should update the value of
>> left-margin-width and right-margin-width, and then just do
>>
>>   (set-window-margins nil left-margin-width right-margin-width)
>>
>> with updated values.
>
> But setting left-margin-width means the margins will be the same in all
> windows.  We want margins to be different between graphical and TTY
> windows.

I thought that maybe we should have two hooks: one for packages that
set only the variable left-margin-width and don't need to fall back
from fringes to margins, and another hook for packages that need
to update window margins dynamically depending on the presence
of fringes.

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Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2025 20:59:42 +0100
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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Otherwise it looks like a perfectly valid idea to do it there, and I
>> encourage you to push it.  Maybe I'll try my hand at tweaking it.
>
> Ok, the minimal patch that supports all 4 cases is pushed now.

I've tested this version: one of the test cases is still problematic.
Test case 1 fails: it shows the indicator but in the margins, not in the
fringes.

To understand what I mean by test case 1, let's review.  This assumes
you're on something similar to an GNU/Linux machine (like ArchLinux),
but you can craft equivalent test steps for other systems.

- test case 1

  kill any emacs daemons

    pkill -f 'emacs.*daemon=3Dtest'

  start a new daemon

    emacs -Q --daemon=3Dtest e--eval '(setq trusted-content :all)' --eval '=
(insert "\nboo!")' -f flymake-mode

  follow up with

    emacsclient -c -s /var/run/user/1000/emacs/test .

  After switching to the *scratch* buffer, you should see an error
  indicator in the fringe and no margins.

- test case 2

  kill any emacs daemons

    pkill -f 'emacs.*daemon=3Dtest'

  start a new daemon

    emacs -Q --daemon=3Dtest e--eval '(setq trusted-content :all)' --eval '=
(insert "\nboo!")' -f flymake-mode

  followed by

    emacsclient -tty -s /var/run/user/1000/emacs/test .

  After switching to the *scratch* buffer, you should see an error
  indicator in the margin (and no fringes, because TTY)

- test case 3

    emacs -Q --eval '(setq trusted-content :all)' --eval '(insert "\nboo!")=
' -f flymake-mode

  Should show a graphical frame with an error indicator in the fringe
  (and no margins)

- test case 4

    emacs -Q -nw --eval '(setq trusted-content :all)' --eval '(insert "\nbo=
o!")' -f flymake-mode

  Should show a graphical frame with an error indicator in the margin
  (and no fringes)

> But the hook 'window-buffer-change-functions' was added in Emacs 27,
> so let's add it with compatibility shims later, after implementing a new
> hook 'window-margin-functions' that will also require compatibility
> shims.

This is not a problem if Spencer is OK with bumping Package-Requires to
27.1.  I am.  And Eglot's Package-Requires must also be bumped.  And
etc/EGLOT-NEWS must be changed to reflect that.  Another thing to do is
to review after this bump if there are any useless compatibility shims
left after that bump.

Jo=C3=A3o

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Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:

> Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>>> Otherwise it looks like a perfectly valid idea to do it there, and I
>>> encourage you to push it.  Maybe I'll try my hand at tweaking it.
>>
>> Ok, the minimal patch that supports all 4 cases is pushed now.
>
> I've tested this version: one of the test cases is still problematic.
> Test case 1 fails: it shows the indicator but in the margins, not in the
> fringes.

Hi Juri.  I fixed this and reworked your code.  It keeps the same ideas
but you'll find it easier to read (there's a net loss of some 9 loc).

The only functional difference is the fix, which was done -- as I had
explained earlier -- by leveraging the only mechanism supported by Emacs
26 and flymake.el to take action when the buffer is known to be
displayed.  The mechanism is window-configuration-change-hook and the
action -- in this case -- is to auto-show the margins.  If you're unsure
how this works visit the commit 11b37b4a9f3a032 of October 2017.

I also cut down on code duplication (see new helpers flymake--bs-display
and flymake--suitably-fringed-p) and fixed a non-related visibility bug
related to daemons (if the daemon-loaded config visits many flymake-able
buffers using desktop-mode, it would probably lead to trouble).

If you still want to iterate new ideas on this, go ahead, but remember
the "Package-Requires" caveats I explained before.  It could be wise to
ask on emacs-devel if it's OK to break flymake.el ELPA for Emacs 26.

Jo=C3=A3o

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>> I've tested this version: one of the test cases is still problematic.
>> Test case 1 fails: it shows the indicator but in the margins, not in the
>> fringes.

This is expected since we can't use 'window-buffer-change-functions'
added in Emacs 27.

> I fixed this and reworked your code.  It keeps the same ideas
> but you'll find it easier to read (there's a net loss of some 9 loc).
>
> The only functional difference is the fix, which was done -- as I had
> explained earlier -- by leveraging the only mechanism supported by Emacs
> 26 and flymake.el to take action when the buffer is known to be
> displayed.  The mechanism is window-configuration-change-hook and the
> action -- in this case -- is to auto-show the margins.

Thanks, it's nice that you made it work even for Emacs 26.

> I also cut down on code duplication (see new helpers flymake--bs-display
> and flymake--suitably-fringed-p) and fixed a non-related visibility bug
> related to daemons (if the daemon-loaded config visits many flymake-able
> buffers using desktop-mode, it would probably lead to trouble).

I wonder why you removed the optimization that avoided 'cl-case' in the
display spec?  Couldn't we assume that 'flymake-fringe-indicator-position'
is constant during one flymake session?

> If you still want to iterate new ideas on this, go ahead, but remember
> the "Package-Requires" caveats I explained before.  It could be wise to
> ask on emacs-devel if it's OK to break flymake.el ELPA for Emacs 26.

We are going to add a new hook 'window-margin-functions', so the only
additional change we will need to do in Flymake is to set up this hook
to support sharing the margins between different packages in Emacs 31
and later versions.

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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

> This is expected since we can't use 'window-buffer-change-functions'
> added in Emacs 27.

Ah.

> Thanks, it's nice that you made it work even for Emacs 26.

Yes.

>> I also cut down on code duplication (see new helpers flymake--bs-display
>> and flymake--suitably-fringed-p) and fixed a non-related visibility bug
>> related to daemons (if the daemon-loaded config visits many flymake-able
>> buffers using desktop-mode, it would probably lead to trouble).
>
> I wonder why you removed the optimization that avoided 'cl-case' in the
> display spec?  Couldn't we assume that 'flymake-fringe-indicator-position'
> is constant during one flymake session?

We don't even have to assume that, it just has to be constant across one
`flymake-start' cycle.  So no problem there.

I just didn't realize it was an optimization.  We can restore it, but I
tend to think having the code refactored in `suitably-fringed-p` is
better. Not sure saving a `cl-case` will make a tremendous difference.
If it does, we might as well also store in some buffer
`flymake--fringe-index`

What _would_ probably make a difference is to avoid the '(when CONDITION
. DISPLAY)' altogether and record in a variable the decision to use or
not use fringes in 'flymake-start' invocation (which is where the
suitability of fringes is first evaluated).  Earlier patches did that
and it's trivial to do now, if we want.

What would be lost?  In my testing and opinion, not much.  The current
scheme only has any effect when two frames, one tty and one graphical
have windows showing the same buffer, started in this order.  Then, the
graphical window will show both fringes and margins. If, like me you
have X-windows "mouse focus" then, depending on which frame has focus
from the OS, the indicator will appear and disappear from the tty
frame. :-) In the graphical frame it will hop from fringe to margin as
you give it focus and take it away.

>> If you still want to iterate new ideas on this, go ahead, but remember
>> the "Package-Requires" caveats I explained before.  It could be wise to
>> ask on emacs-devel if it's OK to break flymake.el ELPA for Emacs 26.
>
> We are going to add a new hook 'window-margin-functions', so the only
> additional change we will need to do in Flymake is to set up this hook
> to support sharing the margins between different packages in Emacs 31
> and later versions.

That's fine as long as you special case it.  Though if you're going to
do that, I tend to think Eli's idea of a new spec that will choose
between fringes and margins in the display code (and even potentially
make space like display-line-numbers-mode) is better and more elegant.

Jo=C3=A3o

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Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:

>>>>> So we need to design a new feature.  For example, we could add
>>>>> a new hook-like variable that contains a list of functions added
>>>>> by different packages.  Each function returns the margin width required
>>>>> by each package.  Then their sum is set as the window margin width.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I was thinking we might want something like that.  Maybe called
>>>> window-margin-functions.
>>>>
>>>> That design sounds good to me, but maybe others have objections.
>>>>
>>>> How would {left,right}-margin-width be incorporated into
>>>> window-margin-functions?  Perhaps window-margin-functions could have a
>>>> default value of '(buffer-margin-width), where buffer-margin-width is a
>>>> function which returns (cons left-margin-width right-margin-width).
>>>
>>> I now think that a new function update-window-margins that will call
>>> the hook window-margin-functions should update the value of
>>> left-margin-width and right-margin-width, and then just do
>>>
>>>   (set-window-margins nil left-margin-width right-margin-width)
>>>
>>> with updated values.
>>
>> But setting left-margin-width means the margins will be the same in all
>> windows.  We want margins to be different between graphical and TTY
>> windows.
>
> I thought that maybe we should have two hooks: one for packages that
> set only the variable left-margin-width and don't need to fall back
> from fringes to margins, and another hook for packages that need
> to update window margins dynamically depending on the presence
> of fringes.

Would that just be for the sake of compatibility?  The first hook would
just be used on Emacs <31?

Because otherwise I don't understand why we'd have two hooks, the second
hook seems strictly more powerful while being not much harder to use.

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Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:
> Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> This is expected since we can't use 'window-buffer-change-functions'
>> added in Emacs 27.
>
> Ah.
>
>> Thanks, it's nice that you made it work even for Emacs 26.
>
> Yes.
>
>>> I also cut down on code duplication (see new helpers flymake--bs-display
>>> and flymake--suitably-fringed-p) and fixed a non-related visibility bug
>>> related to daemons (if the daemon-loaded config visits many flymake-able
>>> buffers using desktop-mode, it would probably lead to trouble).
>>
>> I wonder why you removed the optimization that avoided 'cl-case' in the
>> display spec?  Couldn't we assume that 'flymake-fringe-indicator-positio=
n'
>> is constant during one flymake session?
>
> We don't even have to assume that, it just has to be constant across one
> `flymake-start' cycle.  So no problem there.
>
> I just didn't realize it was an optimization.  We can restore it, but I
> tend to think having the code refactored in `suitably-fringed-p` is
> better. Not sure saving a `cl-case` will make a tremendous difference.
> If it does, we might as well also store in some buffer
> `flymake--fringe-index`
>
> What _would_ probably make a difference is to avoid the '(when CONDITION
> . DISPLAY)' altogether and record in a variable the decision to use or
> not use fringes in 'flymake-start' invocation (which is where the
> suitability of fringes is first evaluated).  Earlier patches did that
> and it's trivial to do now, if we want.
>
> What would be lost?  In my testing and opinion, not much.  The current
> scheme only has any effect when two frames, one tty and one graphical
> have windows showing the same buffer, started in this order.  Then, the
> graphical window will show both fringes and margins. If, like me you
> have X-windows "mouse focus" then, depending on which frame has focus
> from the OS, the indicator will appear and disappear from the tty
> frame. :-) In the graphical frame it will hop from fringe to margin as
> you give it focus and take it away.
>
>>> If you still want to iterate new ideas on this, go ahead, but remember
>>> the "Package-Requires" caveats I explained before.  It could be wise to
>>> ask on emacs-devel if it's OK to break flymake.el ELPA for Emacs 26.
>>
>> We are going to add a new hook 'window-margin-functions', so the only
>> additional change we will need to do in Flymake is to set up this hook
>> to support sharing the margins between different packages in Emacs 31
>> and later versions.
>
> That's fine as long as you special case it.  Though if you're going to
> do that, I tend to think Eli's idea of a new spec that will choose
> between fringes and margins in the display code (and even potentially
> make space like display-line-numbers-mode) is better and more elegant.

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Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:
>>> I also cut down on code duplication (see new helpers flymake--bs-display
>>> and flymake--suitably-fringed-p) and fixed a non-related visibility bug
>>> related to daemons (if the daemon-loaded config visits many flymake-able
>>> buffers using desktop-mode, it would probably lead to trouble).
>>
>> I wonder why you removed the optimization that avoided 'cl-case' in the
>> display spec?  Couldn't we assume that 'flymake-fringe-indicator-positio=
n'
>> is constant during one flymake session?
>
> We don't even have to assume that, it just has to be constant across one
> `flymake-start' cycle.  So no problem there.
>
> I just didn't realize it was an optimization.  We can restore it, but I
> tend to think having the code refactored in `suitably-fringed-p` is
> better. Not sure saving a `cl-case` will make a tremendous difference.
> If it does, we might as well also store in some buffer
> `flymake--fringe-index`
>
> What _would_ probably make a difference is to avoid the '(when CONDITION
> . DISPLAY)' altogether and record in a variable the decision to use or
> not use fringes in 'flymake-start' invocation (which is where the
> suitability of fringes is first evaluated).  Earlier patches did that
> and it's trivial to do now, if we want.

Would making that decision at the time flymake-start is called, work for
buffers that are created or reverted while not displayed in a window?  I
don't think it would.

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On Mon, Oct 20, 2025 at 6:57=E2=80=AFPM Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN=
m> wrote:

>
> > What _would_ probably make a difference is to avoid the '(when CONDITIO=
N
> > . DISPLAY)' altogether and record in a variable the decision to use or
> > not use fringes in 'flymake-start' invocation (which is where the
> > suitability of fringes is first evaluated).  Earlier patches did that
> > and it's trivial to do now, if we want.
>
> Would making that decision at the time flymake-start is called, work for
> buffers that are created or reverted while not displayed in a window?  I
> don't think it would.
>

Can you describe a case of such a creation (or reversion) that I can
follow along and experiment with?  I don't understand what use case
you are referring to.

I think that is best, but I can add that the idea of flymake-start (which
goes back to a very early bug report around 2017) is that when called
on a buffer that is *not* displayed, it doesn't do anything except arrange
for a future asynchronous call to itself to happen later on at a time that
the buffer *is* displayed. This has worked fine for many years. Interactive
calls always happen with a displayed buffer.  Non-interactive calls to
flymake-start are controlled by Flymake itself, which doesn't mind the
deferral
(Flymake is primarily async anyway).

There might be edge cases, of course, and some of them can be fixed
(support for daemon-loaded buffers was missing, for example).

Jo=C3=A3o

--000000000000039dce06419af2b9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Oct 20, 2025 at 6:57=E2=80=AFPM S=
pencer Baugh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sbaugh@HIDDEN">sbaugh@janestreet=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
&gt; What _would_ probably make a difference is to avoid the &#39;(when CON=
DITION<br>
&gt; . DISPLAY)&#39; altogether and record in a variable the decision to us=
e or<br>
&gt; not use fringes in &#39;flymake-start&#39; invocation (which is where =
the<br>
&gt; suitability of fringes is first evaluated).=C2=A0 Earlier patches did =
that<br>
&gt; and it&#39;s trivial to do now, if we want.<br>
<br>
Would making that decision at the time flymake-start is called, work for<br=
>
buffers that are created or reverted while not displayed in a window?=C2=A0=
 I<br>
don&#39;t think it would.<br>
</blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>Can you describe a case of such a cr=
eation (or reversion) that I can</div><div>follow along and experiment with=
?=C2=A0 I don&#39;t understand what use case</div><div>you are referring to=
.</div><div><br></div><div>I think that is best, but I can add that the ide=
a of flymake-start (which</div><div>goes back to a very early bug report ar=
ound 2017) is that when called</div><div>on a buffer that is *not* displaye=
d, it doesn&#39;t do anything except arrange</div><div>for a future asynchr=
onous call to itself to happen later on at a time that</div><div>the buffer=
 *is* displayed. This has worked fine for many years. Interactive=C2=A0</di=
v><div>calls always happen with a displayed buffer.=C2=A0 Non-interactive c=
alls to=C2=A0</div><div>flymake-start are controlled by Flymake itself, whi=
ch doesn&#39;t mind the deferral</div><div>(Flymake is primarily async anyw=
ay).</div><div><br></div><div>There might be edge cases, of course, and som=
e of them can be fixed</div><div>(support for daemon-loaded buffers was mis=
sing, for example).</div><div><br></div><div>Jo=C3=A3o</div></div>

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>>>>>> So we need to design a new feature.  For example, we could add
>>>>>> a new hook-like variable that contains a list of functions added
>>>>>> by different packages.  Each function returns the margin width required
>>>>>> by each package.  Then their sum is set as the window margin width.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I was thinking we might want something like that.  Maybe called
>>>>> window-margin-functions.
>>>>>
>>>>> That design sounds good to me, but maybe others have objections.
>>>>>
>>>>> How would {left,right}-margin-width be incorporated into
>>>>> window-margin-functions?  Perhaps window-margin-functions could have a
>>>>> default value of '(buffer-margin-width), where buffer-margin-width is a
>>>>> function which returns (cons left-margin-width right-margin-width).
>>>>
>>>> I now think that a new function update-window-margins that will call
>>>> the hook window-margin-functions should update the value of
>>>> left-margin-width and right-margin-width, and then just do
>>>>
>>>>   (set-window-margins nil left-margin-width right-margin-width)
>>>>
>>>> with updated values.
>>>
>>> But setting left-margin-width means the margins will be the same in all
>>> windows.  We want margins to be different between graphical and TTY
>>> windows.
>>
>> I thought that maybe we should have two hooks: one for packages that
>> set only the variable left-margin-width and don't need to fall back
>> from fringes to margins, and another hook for packages that need
>> to update window margins dynamically depending on the presence
>> of fringes.
>
> Would that just be for the sake of compatibility?  The first hook would
> just be used on Emacs <31?
>
> Because otherwise I don't understand why we'd have two hooks, the second
> hook seems strictly more powerful while being not much harder to use.

On emacs-devel I posted a patch that implements a single hook
'window-margin-functions' that consistently incorporates
'left-margin-width' and 'right-margin-width'.

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Subject: bug#77313: 30.1.50; Regression: flymake indicators are erroneously using margins
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Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:

> On Mon, Oct 20, 2025 at 6:57=E2=80=AFPM Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@janestreet.=
com> wrote:
>
>  > What _would_ probably make a difference is to avoid the '(when CONDITI=
ON
>  > . DISPLAY)' altogether and record in a variable the decision to use or
>  > not use fringes in 'flymake-start' invocation (which is where the
>  > suitability of fringes is first evaluated).  Earlier patches did that
>  > and it's trivial to do now, if we want.
>
>  Would making that decision at the time flymake-start is called, work for
>  buffers that are created or reverted while not displayed in a window?  I
>  don't think it would.
>
> Can you describe a case of such a creation (or reversion) that I can
> follow along and experiment with?  I don't understand what use case
> you are referring to.
>
> I think that is best, but I can add that the idea of flymake-start (which
> goes back to a very early bug report around 2017) is that when called
> on a buffer that is *not* displayed, it doesn't do anything except arrange
> for a future asynchronous call to itself to happen later on at a time that
> the buffer *is* displayed. This has worked fine for many years. Interacti=
ve=20
> calls always happen with a displayed buffer.  Non-interactive calls to=20
> flymake-start are controlled by Flymake itself, which doesn't mind the de=
ferral
> (Flymake is primarily async anyway).
>
> There might be edge cases, of course, and some of them can be fixed
> (support for daemon-loaded buffers was missing, for example).

Ah, I think you're right, with your recent changes indeed such buffers
should work fine.

(It would be nice if we had tests for these things...)

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On Mon, Oct 20, 2025 at 8:37=E2=80=AFPM Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN=
m> wrote:

>
> Ah, I think you're right, with your recent changes indeed such buffers
> should work fine.
>

Great.

(It would be nice if we had tests for these things...)
>

Robustly testing async code with display effects in non-interactive
settings is very hard to do, if not impossible, last I checked. JS-based
web development faced similar difficulties in the past, though
nowadays there are things like Puppeteer or Playwright based on headless
browsers to plug that gap.  Not  sure something like that exists for Emacs.
Best we can do is write down the Emacs -Q steps that a human can reliably
and efficiently follow, likeI did some messages ago.

Jo=C3=A3o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Oct 20, 2025 at 8:37=E2=80=AFPM S=
pencer Baugh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sbaugh@HIDDEN">sbaugh@janestreet=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Ah, I think you&#39;re right, with your recent changes indeed such buffers<=
br>
should work fine.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Great.=C2=A0</div><di=
v><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
(It would be nice if we had tests for these things...)<br></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div>Robustly testing async code with display effects in non-int=
eractive=C2=A0</div><div>settings is very hard to do, if not impossible, la=
st I checked. JS-based</div><div>web development faced similar difficulties=
 in the past, though</div><div>nowadays there are things like Puppeteer or =
Playwright based on headless=C2=A0</div><div>browsers to plug that gap.=C2=
=A0 Not=C2=A0 sure something like that exists for Emacs.=C2=A0</div><div>Be=
st we=C2=A0can do is write down the Emacs -Q steps that a human can reliabl=
y=C2=A0</div><div>and efficiently follow,=C2=A0likeI did some messages ago.=
</div><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">Jo=C3=A3o</div><=
/div>

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Last modified: Mon, 20 Oct 2025 20:45:01 UTC

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