GNU bug report logs - #77917
31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all warning levels

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Protesilaos Stavrou <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all warning levels
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2025 08:14:00 +0300

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Dear maintainers,

The *Warnings* buffer uses the same "stop" sign for "warning" and
"error" level warnings. This makes it hard to quickly scan the buffer
for actual errors.

I attach a patch that uses a different icon for "warning" than for
"error" or "emergency".

All the best,
Protesilaos (or simply "Prot")

[0001-Stop-using-the-stop-sign-for-all-warning-levels.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]

Message #8 received at 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Protesilaos Stavrou <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
Cc: 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77917: 31.0.50;
 [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all warning levels
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2025 11:29:16 +0300

> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2025 08:14:00 +0300
> From: Protesilaos Stavrou <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
> 
> The *Warnings* buffer uses the same "stop" sign for "warning" and
> "error" level warnings. This makes it hard to quickly scan the buffer
> for actual errors.

The sign is not for Warning or Error, it's for _disabling_ the
message.  That's why it's the same sign.

Why can't one search by using the text, not the sign?

> I attach a patch that uses a different icon for "warning" than for
> "error" or "emergency".

That's wrong, IMO, see above.

Message #11 received at 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Protesilaos Stavrou <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77917: 31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all
 warning levels
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2025 11:55:22 +0300

On 2025-04-19 11:29, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2025 08:14:00 +0300
>> From: Protesilaos Stavrou <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
>> 
>> The *Warnings* buffer uses the same "stop" sign for "warning" and
>> "error" level warnings. This makes it hard to quickly scan the buffer
>> for actual errors.
> 
> The sign is not for Warning or Error, it's for _disabling_ the
> message.  That's why it's the same sign.
> 
> Why can't one search by using the text, not the sign?
> 
>> I attach a patch that uses a different icon for "warning" than for
>> "error" or "emergency".
> 
> That's wrong, IMO, see above.

I see, thank you!

Message #14 received at 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Rudolf Adamkovič <rudolf <at> adamkovic.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Protesilaos Stavrou <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
Cc: 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77917: 31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all
 warning levels
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2025 01:33:08 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> The sign is not for Warning or Error, it's for _disabling_ the
> message.  That's why it's the same sign.

This will be confusing Emacs users *forever*, IMO.

You keep saying we should wait until people get used to these "buttons",
but that is not a good idea.  If nobody else, some new users will always
struggle, as the design of these buttons is inherently flawed.  I know
of no mature software that uses Emojis this way, which makes this UI not
discoverable.  We should *default* to text buttons, e.g.

  [Suppress], [Hide], or [Disable].

If someone likes emoticons better than text labels, it should be them to
customize.  We should *default* to standard, battle-proven, and thus
discoverable, UI elements.

Rudy
-- 
"One can begin to reason only when a clear picture has been formed in
the imagination."  --- Walter Warwick Sawyer, Mathematician's Delight,
1943

Rudolf Adamkovič <rudolf <at> adamkovic.org> [he/him]
http://adamkovic.org

Message #17 received at 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Rudolf Adamkovič <rudolf <at> adamkovic.org>
Cc: 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, prot <at> protesilaos.com
Subject: Re: bug#77917: 31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all
 warning levels
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2025 09:26:10 +0300

> From: Rudolf Adamkovič <rudolf <at> adamkovic.org>
> Cc: 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2025 01:33:08 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > The sign is not for Warning or Error, it's for _disabling_ the
> > message.  That's why it's the same sign.
> 
> This will be confusing Emacs users *forever*, IMO.
> 
> You keep saying we should wait until people get used to these "buttons",
> but that is not a good idea.

That's my opinion, yes.  It's based on a lot of gray hair with user
expectations.  But I also said that people should feel free to ignore
my opinion on this, if they are certain changing the appearance will
produce better results.  So I'm not sure why you are still arguing.

> We should *default* to text buttons, e.g.
> 
>   [Suppress], [Hide], or [Disable].

That still could confuse: suppress what? hide what?

Like I said: there's no clear winner here.

Message #20 received at 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Protesilaos Stavrou <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
Subject: Re: bug#77917: 31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all
 warning levels
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2025 09:10:01 +0300

>> The *Warnings* buffer uses the same "stop" sign for "warning" and
>> "error" level warnings. This makes it hard to quickly scan the buffer
>> for actual errors.
>
> The sign is not for Warning or Error, it's for _disabling_ the
> message.  That's why it's the same sign.

The icon at the beginning of a warning/error is very useful
to help separating one warning/error from another, especially
for many very long multi-line messages.  But the button for
disabling them like [Disable] could be added at the end of messages.

Message #23 received at 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Protesilaos Stavrou <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
Subject: Re: bug#77917: 31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all
 warning levels
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2025 06:45:02 +0000

Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> writes:

>> The sign is not for Warning or Error, it's for _disabling_ the
>> message.  That's why it's the same sign.
>
> The icon at the beginning of a warning/error is very useful
> to help separating one warning/error from another, especially
> for many very long multi-line messages.  But the button for
> disabling them like [Disable] could be added at the end of messages.

+1
I'd also like to add that it is important that [Disable] (or any other
text) is highlighted as a link. This really helps to figure out that one
can interact with that text. The existing "stop" sign lack such indication.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #26 received at 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, prot <at> protesilaos.com, juri <at> linkov.net
Subject: Re: bug#77917: 31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all
 warning levels
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2025 11:25:38 +0300

> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Protesilaos Stavrou
>  <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2025 06:45:02 +0000
> 
> Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> writes:
> 
> >> The sign is not for Warning or Error, it's for _disabling_ the
> >> message.  That's why it's the same sign.
> >
> > The icon at the beginning of a warning/error is very useful
> > to help separating one warning/error from another, especially
> > for many very long multi-line messages.  But the button for
> > disabling them like [Disable] could be added at the end of messages.
> 
> +1
> I'd also like to add that it is important that [Disable] (or any other
> text) is highlighted as a link. This really helps to figure out that one
> can interact with that text. The existing "stop" sign lack such indication.

Why link and not a button?  The latter would be more self-explanatory,
IMO.

Message #29 received at 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, prot <at> protesilaos.com, juri <at> linkov.net
Subject: Re: bug#77917: 31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all
 warning levels
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2025 08:32:56 +0000

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> +1
>> I'd also like to add that it is important that [Disable] (or any other
>> text) is highlighted as a link. This really helps to figure out that one
>> can interact with that text. The existing "stop" sign lack such indication.
>
> Why link and not a button?  The latter would be more self-explanatory,
> IMO.

Agree. I just recall it being a link in the past, before ⛔ was introduced.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #32 received at 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Visuwesh <visuweshm <at> gmail.com>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Protesilaos Stavrou <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
Subject: Re: bug#77917: 31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all
 warning levels
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2025 14:28:44 +0530

[ஞாயிறு ஏப்ரல் 20, 2025] Juri Linkov wrote:

>>> The *Warnings* buffer uses the same "stop" sign for "warning" and
>>> "error" level warnings. This makes it hard to quickly scan the buffer
>>> for actual errors.
>>
>> The sign is not for Warning or Error, it's for _disabling_ the
>> message.  That's why it's the same sign.
>
> The icon at the beginning of a warning/error is very useful
> to help separating one warning/error from another, especially
> for many very long multi-line messages.  But the button for
> disabling them like [Disable] could be added at the end of messages.

Is my memory failing me, or was there such a button before the entire
emoji thing was added?  I remember using said button to suppress
warnings that would show up in the early days of native compilation.
(This is how I learnt that the emoji could also be used to suppress
warning BTW).

Message #35 received at 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>, Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Protesilaos Stavrou <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
Subject: Re: bug#77917: 31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all
 warning levels
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2025 19:06:46 -0700

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net> writes:

> Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> writes:
>
>>> The sign is not for Warning or Error, it's for _disabling_ the
>>> message.  That's why it's the same sign.
>>
>> The icon at the beginning of a warning/error is very useful
>> to help separating one warning/error from another, especially
>> for many very long multi-line messages.  But the button for
>> disabling them like [Disable] could be added at the end of messages.
>
> +1
> I'd also like to add that it is important that [Disable] (or any other
> text) is highlighted as a link. This really helps to figure out that one
> can interact with that text. The existing "stop" sign lack such indication.

FWIW, I think changing the icon to something not meaning "stop" would be
better, and I'd prefer that the button looks like a regular text button.
I think this improvement is worth making now, and possibly even
backporting to emacs-30.  I consider this a usability bug.

I think if we want our users to get used to something like this, let's
at least make it not actively confusing.

My two cents.

Message #38 received at 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Rudolf Adamkovič <rudolf <at> adamkovic.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 77917 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Protesilaos Stavrou <prot <at> protesilaos.com>
Subject: Re: bug#77917: 31.0.50; [PATCH] Stop using the "stop" sign for all
 warning levels
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 04:30:25 +0200

Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> writes:

> The icon at the beginning of a warning/error is very useful
> to help separating one warning/error from another, especially
> for many very long multi-line messages.  But the button for
> disabling them like [Disable] could be added at the end of messages.

+1 [Disable], [Suppress], [Hide], or the like.

And as Ihor says, the button should be fontified as such.

Then, nobody will wonder what do to.

Rudy
-- 
"Simplicity is complexity resolved."
--- Constantin Brâncuși, 1876-1957

Rudolf Adamkovič <rudolf <at> adamkovic.org> [he/him]
http://adamkovic.org

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