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Ordinary users of all stripes are encouraged > > to file bug reports and enhancement requests. They shouldn't > > need to access texi sources or be familiar with diffs or > > patches. Especially for doc changes. Just tossing them a > > patch discourages such participation. > > > > I write technical docs. There's no way we would expect our > > reviewers to fiddle with source input (XML) to the doc process > > or diffs/patches, even though they're all competent software > > people. Reviewing doc is about reading text, and preferably > > doing so in context. > > > > Think about this: Surely you didn't _write_ your improved > > text in the form of a diff. You wrote it as ordinary text, > > and you probably did so reading the surrounding context as > > ordinary text. And even if you didn't, mere mortals would. >=20 > Of course I didn't write the diff by hand, but I did make changes > directly in the .texi file and then the easiest and quickest way (for > me) to see the changes in context, and present them to others, is to > generate a diff. To extract plain text out that is an added burden for > me (granted, probably in most cases only a small one). But I shouldn't > have presumed to judge what is burdensome for others. Too burdensome for me, to deal with the diff. And I don't want to have to track down the current doc state that it applies against, and use the patch to create the new doc state from that, to be reviewed.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
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From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#78021: 30.1; Unclear sentence in (emacs)Matching
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Content preview: (Sorry for the delayed reply.) On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 11:29:15
+0300 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Stephen Berman >> Cc: eliz@HIDDEN,
drew.adams@HIDDEN
>> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 15:48:54 +0200 >> >> I've attached a patch for
emacs-30 and have several remarks concerning >> it. First, [...]
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Content preview: (Sorry for the delayed reply.) On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 11:29:15
+0300 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Stephen Berman >> Cc: eliz@HIDDEN, drew.adams@HIDDEN
>> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 15:48:54 +0200 >> >> I've attached a patch for
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--=-=-=
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(Sorry for the delayed reply.)
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 11:29:15 +0300 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>> From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: eliz@HIDDEN, drew.adams@HIDDEN
>> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 15:48:54 +0200
>>=20
>> I've attached a patch for emacs-30 and have several remarks concerning
>> it. First, regarding my first point above, since the parent node
>> already says "The major mode controls which delimiters are significant
>> [...]", I now think there is no need to reiterate it here.
>
> I think it is still a good idea to mention that. The manual is not
> always read in the logical order of the chapters and sections. In
> fact, in most cases people are supposed to use Info-index to land
> directly on this text and read it without reading the parent section.
[...]
Thanks for you're detailed critique of my patch; I agree with almost all
of your points, and in the attached patch tried to take them into
account. I also spent some time trying to better understand the effect
of the user options mentioned in this node (there are other user options
in electric-pair.el but they require writing Lisp, which I suppose is
why weren't documented in the Emacs manual, and I don't think they
should be added). This has resulted in (I hope) more accurate and
clearer, but also longer, descriptions. If you find them too long or
still not clear enough, I welcome suggestions to improve them. For this
reason I haven't yet tried to improve the doc strings of the options,
and would also welcome suggestions for these (in particular, for the
first line of each option).
Steve Berman
--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: attachment
Content-Description: programs.texi patch
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
diff --git a/doc/emacs/programs.texi b/doc/emacs/programs.texi
index 820a772104e..7cd57584061 100644
=2D-- a/doc/emacs/programs.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/programs.texi
@@ -1063,52 +1063,96 @@ Matching
@cindex Electric Pair mode
@cindex inserting matching parentheses
@findex electric-pair-mode
- Electric Pair mode, a global minor mode, provides a way to easily
-insert matching delimiters: parentheses, braces, brackets, etc.
-Whenever you insert an opening delimiter, the matching closing delimiter
-is automatically inserted as well, leaving point between the two.
-However, if you insert a closing delimiter where one already exists
-(probably a mistake, since typing the opening delimiter inserted the
-closing one for you), Emacs simply moves point to after the closing
-delimiter, skipping the insertion. If the region is active
-(@pxref{Mark}), insertion of a delimiter operates on the region: the
-characters in the region are enclosed in a pair of matching delimiters,
-leaving point after the delimiter you typed. If you provide a prefix
-argument when inserting a delimiter, the numeric value of that prefix
-argument specifies the number of pairs to insert.
-
-These variables control additional features of Electric Pair mode:
+ Electric Pair mode is a minor mode that provides a way to easily
+insert pairs of matching delimiters: parentheses, braces, brackets,
+quotes, etc. (what counts as matching delimiters depends on the major
+mode). To toggle Electric Pair mode globally, type @kbd{M-x
+electric-pair-mode}. To toggle it only in the current buffer, type
+@kbd{M-x electric-pair-local-mode}.
+
+ When this mode is enabled, typing an opening delimiter inserts both
+that character and, immediately following it, the matching closing
+delimiter, leaving point between the two. This makes it unnecessary to
+type a matching closing delimiter in most cases. If you type one
+nonetheless, Emacs simply inserts that character, unless point is
+immediately before a closing delimiter of the same type; in that case,
+point moves to immediately after the closing delimiter and no additional
+closing delimiter is inserted. Thus, typing the sequence <opening
+delimiter>, <matching closing delimiter> is a perhaps more convenient
+alternative to the sequence <opening delimiter>, @kbd{C-f}.
+
+ With an active region (@pxref{Mark}), Electric Pair mode operates
+differently: inserting either an opening or a closing delimiter encloses
+the characters in the region within the resulting pair of matching
+delimiters, leaving point after the delimiter you typed (this
+facilitates continuing to type either before the text following the
+opening delimiter or after the closing delimiter).
+
+ There are several user options for modifying the behavior of Electric
+Pair mode:
=20
@itemize @bullet
@item
@vindex electric-pair-preserve-balance
-@code{electric-pair-preserve-balance}, when non-@code{nil}, makes the
-default pairing logic balance out the number of opening and closing
-delimiters.
+@code{electric-pair-preserve-balance}, when non-@code{nil} (the
+default), makes typing a delimiter preserve the balance between opening
+and closing delimiters. Thus, if there is an unmatched closing
+delimiter of the same type later in the buffer, then only the opening
+delimiter gets inserted (and not a matching closing delimiter
+immediately following it); likewise, if there is an unmatched opening
+delimiter, then typing a closing delimiter of the same type later in the
+buffer inserts this character even when the following character is
+another closing delimiter of the same type.
+
+ When set to @code{nil}, typing an opening delimiter inserts only this
+character, but only when point is either immediately before or
+immediately after an opening delimiter of the same type, or immediately
+before a letter or digit; in all other positions inserting an opening
+delimiter automatically inserts a matching closing delimiter immediately
+following it, even if there is an unmatched closing delimiter of the
+same type later in the buffer. And typing a closing delimiter
+immediately before another closing delimiter of the same type does not
+insert that character but moves point as described above, even when
+there is an unmatched opening delimiter of the same type earlier in the
+buffer.
+
+ With an active region, the effect of inserting a delimiter is as
+described above regardless of the value of this variable.
=20
@item
@vindex electric-pair-delete-adjacent-pairs
-@code{electric-pair-delete-adjacent-pairs}, when non-@code{nil}, makes
-backspacing between two adjacent delimiters also automatically delete
-the closing delimiter.
+@code{electric-pair-delete-adjacent-pairs}, when non-@code{nil} (the
+default), makes deleting an opening delimiter by typing the @key{DEL}
+key (which is normally the @key{BACKSPACE} key) automatically also
+delete an immediately following closing delimiter (but not if there are
+any characters---including just whitespace---between the matching
+delimiters). When set to @code{nil}, typing @key{BACKSPACE} deletes
+only the opening delimiter. (Typing @key{BACKSPACE} to delete a closing
+delimiter always deletes only this character.)
=20
@item
@vindex electric-pair-open-newline-between-pairs
-@code{electric-pair-open-newline-between-pairs}, when non-@code{nil},
-makes inserting a newline between two adjacent pairs also
-automatically open an extra newline after point.
+When @code{electric-pair-open-newline-between-pairs} is non-@code{nil}
+(the default) and point is between an opening delimiter and an
+immediately following closing delimiter, then typing a newline
+automatically inserts an extra newline after point (possibly indenting
+the empty line point is on, depending on the major mode). When set to
+@code{nil}, typing a newline insert only one newline before point, as
+usual.
=20
@item
@vindex electric-pair-skip-whitespace
-@code{electric-pair-skip-whitespace}, when non-@code{nil}, causes the min=
or
-mode to skip whitespace forward before deciding whether to skip over
-the closing delimiter.
+When @code{electric-pair-skip-whitespace} has its default non-@code{nil}
+value and point is separated from a closing delimiter only by
+whitespace, then typing a closing delimiter of the same type does not
+insert that character but instead moves point to immediately after the
+already present closing delimiter. You can also set this option to
+additionally delete any white space that point moves over. When set to
+@code{nil}, typing a closing delimiter simply inserts that character
+(thus making the following closing delimiter of the same type
+unbalanced).
@end itemize
=20
-To toggle Electric Pair mode, type @kbd{M-x electric-pair-mode}. To
-toggle the mode in a single buffer, use @kbd{M-x
-electric-pair-local-mode}.
-
@node Comments
@section Manipulating Comments
@cindex comments
--=-=-=--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
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From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#78021: 30.1; Unclear sentence in
(emacs)Matching
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Content preview: (Sorry for the delayed reply.) On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 20:23:34
+0000 Drew Adams wrote: >> > Not clear enough: >> > "with only white space
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Content preview: (Sorry for the delayed reply.) On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 20:23:34
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(Sorry for the delayed reply.)
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 20:23:34 +0000 Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> wrot=
e:
>> > Not clear enough:
>> > "with only white space between the delimiters".
>> > Only whitespace between which delimiters? There are
>> > presumably at least 3 delimiters in this scenario, one
>> > opening and two closing.
>>=20
>> The scenario is like this: "some text ( ) more text", and the user
>> types ")" somewhere between the pair of parens. If you can think of a
>> clearer way of describing this just as briefly, I would be grateful (El=
i
>> requested that the node should not become much longer).
>>=20
>> > Not clear enough:
>> > "to after the closing delimiter".
>> > Which closing delimiter?
>>=20
>> The one in the text scenario given above, which is the only actual
>> closing delimiter character in the text -- the "other closing delimiter=
"
>> is still just the key being typed, but the character is not inserted (a=
s
>> the description says). Here, too, I would welcome a clearer but just a=
s
>> brief description.
>>=20
>> > Immediately after it?
>> > If not, where after it?
>>=20
>> Yes, immediately or directly after it. Perhaps adding one of those
>> words would be acceptable.
>
> Quite complicated. Maybe should include an illustration.
>
> However, if you try to insert a closing delimiter between
> a matching pair of the same type, which are not separated
> or are separated only by whitespace, then there's no
> insertion and point is moved immediately after the closing
> delimiter. For example, if you try to insert `)' at | then
> for `(|)' the result is `()|', and for `( | )' the
> result is `( )|'.
>
> Or maybe:
>
> However, if only whitespace (or nothing) is delimited, and
> you try to insert a closing delimiter of the same type
> between the delimiters, it's not inserted. Instead, point
> is put immediately after the closing delimiter. For example...=20
>
> But a reasonable question is why? Why is that the chosen
> behavior? And why is delimited whitespace special here?
> Explaining _why_ would itself take readers a long way toward
> understanding _what_ the behavior is. IOW, start by saying
> what the problem is that this behavior tries to solve.
Thanks for the suggestions, which in principle I agree with. However,
this is starting to sound like a project more appropriate for a separate
Info manual for Electric Pair mode, which I don't want to undertake,
because I have neither enough familiarity with the code nor the time to
familiarize myself with it and then satisfactorily document it. I'm
already finding it hard than I thought it would be to make the necessary
relatively small doc changes suitable for the Emacs manual.
[...]
>> > Thanks for working on this. And thank you for
>> > providing the proposed text (for the part concerning
>> > this bug). When reviewing doc changes we shouldn't
>> > have to decipher a diff or apply it.
>>=20
>> Since dealing with diffs is standard fare here, and they are generally
>> required by those who decide whether to accept the changes, and those
>> who install the changes to the source repository, I don't think it's
>> unduly burdensome on other interested participants to expect them to be
>> able to deal with them too.
>
> I do think so. Ordinary users of all stripes are encouraged
> to file bug reports and enhancement requests. They shouldn't
> need to access texi sources or be familiar with diffs or
> patches. Especially for doc changes. Just tossing them a
> patch discourages such participation.
>
> I write technical docs. There's no way we would expect our
> reviewers to fiddle with source input (XML) to the doc process
> or diffs/patches, even though they're all competent software
> people. Reviewing doc is about reading text, and preferably
> doing so in context.
>
> Think about this: Surely you didn't _write_ your improved
> text in the form of a diff. You wrote it as ordinary text,
> and you probably did so reading the surrounding context as
> ordinary text. And even if you didn't, mere mortals would.
Of course I didn't write the diff by hand, but I did make changes
directly in the .texi file and then the easiest and quickest way (for
me) to see the changes in context, and present them to others, is to
generate a diff. To extract plain text out that is an added burden for
me (granted, probably in most cases only a small one). But I shouldn't
have presumed to judge what is burdensome for others.
Steve Berman
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87ldro73nd.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Stephen Berman on Fri, 25
Apr 2025 15:48:54 +0200)
Subject: Re: bug#78021: 30.1; Unclear sentence in (emacs)Matching
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> From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>
> Cc: eliz@HIDDEN, drew.adams@HIDDEN
> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 15:48:54 +0200
>
> I've attached a patch for emacs-30 and have several remarks concerning
> it. First, regarding my first point above, since the parent node
> already says "The major mode controls which delimiters are significant
> [...]", I now think there is no need to reiterate it here.
I think it is still a good idea to mention that. The manual is not
always read in the logical order of the chapters and sections. In
fact, in most cases people are supposed to use Info-index to land
directly on this text and read it without reading the parent section.
> Second, in the first paragraphs of the patch I've tried to describe the
> default behavior concisely and completely; however, the sentence about
> the numeric prefix argument, which evidently comes from the
> documentation in master, is not suitable for emacs-30: the use of the
> prefix argument was added (together with its documentation) as a result
> of bug#72437 only to master. If my doc changes for emacs-30 are
> acceptable, they should be added to master as well, but not merged,
> because of the prefix argument doc. But in addition, in testing the use
> of the prefix argument I've encountered what seems like buggy behavior,
> one instance of which I pointed out above; I'm still investigating this
> and plan to file a bug report about it. A doc patch for master should
> await the outcome of that.
You could either (a) install different changes on each branch, with
"Do not merge" in the log message of emacs-30 commit; or (b) install
only the change for emacs-30, wait for it to be merged, then install
followup changes on master.
> Third, concerning the user options, I think it's better not to use the
> phrase "when non-‘nil’", which is in all cases the default value: for
> electric-pair-preserve-balance, the behavior with that value was already
> described, so it's better (and more parsimonious) to focus on the
> behavior with the non-default value here; and for the other three
> options a user-defined function is also allowed as value, which of
> course is non-nil, but I don't think documenting this value is
> appropriate for the Emacs manual, so I think it's better just to say "by
> default".
The usual style in these cases is to describe the default behavior and
then tell what will happen if the value is customized to nil. If the
default behavior was already described, you can describe only the
non-default one.
> + Electric Pair mode is a minor mode that provides a way to easily
> +insert matching delimiters: parentheses, braces, brackets, quotes, etc.
> +To toggle Electric Pair mode globally, type @kbd{M-x
> +electric-pair-mode}. To toggle it only in the current buffer, type
> +@kbd{M-x electric-pair-local-mode}.
> +
> + When this mode is enabled and you type an opening delimiter, then by
> +default the matching closing delimiter is normally automatically
> +inserted as well, leaving point between the two. However, if there is
> +an unmatched closing delimiter later in the buffer, then by default
> +typing an opening delimiter inserts just that character, in order to
> +balance opening and closing delimiters.
The repetition of "by default", let alone with "normally" in the same
sentence, gets in the way, and IMO adds no useful information. I
suggest to drop those redundant words.
> + This makes it unnecessary to type a closing delimiter, and doing so
> +normally simply inserts that character.
This sounds like a contradiction to me. Would the below be accurate:
This makes it unnecessary to type a closing delimiter in most
cases. (If you type it nonetheless, Emacs simply inserts that
character.)
> However, if you type a closing
> +delimiter at a buffer position between matching delimiters of the same
> +type with only white space between the delimiters, then by default Emacs
> +simply moves point to after the closing delimiter and does not insert
> +another one.
The "only white space" part is inaccurate, and only happens when
electric-pair-skip-whitespace is non-nil. I think this subtle aspect
is best described where electric-pair-skip-whitespace is documented.
Here, I would only describe the behavior when inserting a closing
delimiter where there is one already.
> +@code{electric-pair-preserve-balance}, when set to @code{nil}, makes
> +typing an opening delimiter insert only that character, thus overriding
> +the default pairing logic of balancing the number of opening and closing
> +delimiters.
This sounds like disabling the main effect of the mode. Is that
really correct? If not, then the "default pairing logic of balancing
the number of opening and closing delimiters" should be described
first, to explain what does this option disable, exactly.
> @vindex electric-pair-delete-adjacent-pairs
> -@code{electric-pair-delete-adjacent-pairs}, when non-@code{nil}, makes
> -backspacing between two adjacent delimiters also automatically delete
> -the closing delimiter.
> +@code{electric-pair-delete-adjacent-pairs}, by default, makes
> +backspacing between two adjacent delimiters delete not only the opening
> +delimiter but also the closing delimiter.
First, "backspacing" is an unfortunate wording, because someone might
interpret it as typing C-b. I believe the intent is to deleting by
DEL instead. Second, in my testing typing DEL on the opening
delimiter removes the closing delimiter only if there's _nothing_
between them. If that is why you mean by "between two adjacent
delimiters", it should be clarified, because I didn't interpret it
that way. And third, since this is the default behavior, documenting
this option should tell what happens in the non-default case.
> @vindex electric-pair-open-newline-between-pairs
> -@code{electric-pair-open-newline-between-pairs}, when non-@code{nil},
> -makes inserting a newline between two adjacent pairs also
> -automatically open an extra newline after point.
> +@code{electric-pair-open-newline-between-pairs}, by default, makes
> +inserting a newline between two adjacent pairs also automatically open
> +an extra newline after point.
Some modes customize the default value of this option (for example, it
is nil in *scratch*), so "by default" is not accurate in this case.
Also, the same issue about "between two adjacent delimiters" happens
here as well: the additional newline is inserted only if there's
_nothing_ between the delimiters, not even white space. And finally,
"open an extra newline" is confusing; I would instead say "inserts one
extra newline after point, moving the closing delimiter to a new line".
> @vindex electric-pair-skip-whitespace
> -@code{electric-pair-skip-whitespace}, when non-@code{nil}, causes the minor
> -mode to skip whitespace forward before deciding whether to skip over
> -the closing delimiter.
> +@code{electric-pair-skip-whitespace}, by default, makes typing a closing
> +delimiter between matching delimiters of the same type behave as
> +described above.
The description of the default behavior is redundant and is best
omitted.
> You can set this option to additionally delete any
> +white space skipped over.
This "skipping over" part is "out of the blue": it is completely
unclear what it alludes to. This should be explained before
describing the effect of the variable.
> You can also set it not to skip over the
> +following closing delimiter but simply insert a closing delimiter at
> +point (thus making the following delimiter unbalanced).
And here, it is unclear what does skipping whitespace have to do with
insertion of the closing delimiter.
Btw, I think the doc strings of these options need clarifications.
They make very little sense to me when I read them.
Thanks.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
To: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#78021: 30.1; Unclear sentence in
(emacs)Matching
Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#78021: 30.1; Unclear sentence in
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> > Not clear enough:
> > "with only white space between the delimiters".
> > Only whitespace between which delimiters? There are
> > presumably at least 3 delimiters in this scenario, one
> > opening and two closing.
>=20
> The scenario is like this: "some text ( ) more text", and the user
> types ")" somewhere between the pair of parens. If you can think of a
> clearer way of describing this just as briefly, I would be grateful (Eli
> requested that the node should not become much longer).
>=20
> > Not clear enough:
> > "to after the closing delimiter".
> > Which closing delimiter?
>=20
> The one in the text scenario given above, which is the only actual
> closing delimiter character in the text -- the "other closing delimiter"
> is still just the key being typed, but the character is not inserted (as
> the description says). Here, too, I would welcome a clearer but just as
> brief description.
>=20
> > Immediately after it?
> > If not, where after it?
>=20
> Yes, immediately or directly after it. Perhaps adding one of those
> words would be acceptable.
Quite complicated. Maybe should include an illustration.
However, if you try to insert a closing delimiter between
a matching pair of the same type, which are not separated
or are separated only by whitespace, then there's no
insertion and point is moved immediately after the closing
delimiter. For example, if you try to insert `)' at | then
for `(|)' the result is `()|', and for `( | )' the
result is `( )|'.
Or maybe:
However, if only whitespace (or nothing) is delimited, and
you try to insert a closing delimiter of the same type
between the delimiters, it's not inserted. Instead, point
is put immediately after the closing delimiter. For example...=20
But a reasonable question is why? Why is that the chosen
behavior? And why is delimited whitespace special here?
Explaining _why_ would itself take readers a long way toward
understanding _what_ the behavior is. IOW, start by saying
what the problem is that this behavior tries to solve.
> > And please change the name of the node (the name
> > used by `g' etc.) from just "Matching" to something
> > else, preferably something that indicates it's
> > about matching delimiters. That too is part of
> > this bug/enhancement request.
>=20
> Making such a change is the maintainers' prerogative; the (cogent)
> argument against such a change is that, being a long-standing node name,
> changing it could well break references in external info files or other
> formats derived from them, like web pages.
If that's a concern then the old node name could presumably
still be respected for a while, as an (unadvertised) alias.
But yes, it would have been better to think more about the
node name at the outset. The key terms in this are "paired"
and "delimiters".
There can be different ways that a pair of delimiters match
each other. What's important is that there's some way that
they're defined as a matching _pair_.
And an ordered pair, at that. `(' matches `)' that follows
it, but it doesn't match `)' that precedes it, etc. (Dunno
what the case is for bidirectional text.)
Matching isn't even a great term to introduce for this, IMO.
In one sense `)' matches `)'; in another sense `)' matches `('.
> > Thanks for working on this. And thank you for
> > providing the proposed text (for the part concerning
> > this bug). When reviewing doc changes we shouldn't
> > have to decipher a diff or apply it.
>=20
> Since dealing with diffs is standard fare here, and they are generally
> required by those who decide whether to accept the changes, and those
> who install the changes to the source repository, I don't think it's
> unduly burdensome on other interested participants to expect them to be
> able to deal with them too.
I do think so. Ordinary users of all stripes are encouraged
to file bug reports and enhancement requests. They shouldn't
need to access texi sources or be familiar with diffs or
patches. Especially for doc changes. Just tossing them a
patch discourages such participation.
I write technical docs. There's no way we would expect our
reviewers to fiddle with source input (XML) to the doc process
or diffs/patches, even though they're all competent software
people. Reviewing doc is about reading text, and preferably
doing so in context.
Think about this: Surely you didn't _write_ your improved
text in the form of a diff. You wrote it as ordinary text,
and you probably did so reading the surrounding context as
ordinary text. And even if you didn't, mere mortals would.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 78021) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2025 19:16:58 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 25 15:16:58 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53205 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1u8OXh-0000kk-T1 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2025 15:16:58 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:57889) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>) id 1u8OXe-0000kP-9y for 78021 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2025 15:16:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.net; s=s31663417; t=1745608607; x=1746213407; i=stephen.berman@HIDDEN; bh=YZk2iyvfUSNEsOl8hZwTc55vmmbV/C+mOeObOfOmD/M=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: 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<drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 21:31:22 +0300 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: >> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> >> CC: "eliz@HIDDEN" <eliz@HIDDEN> >> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 15:51:31 +0000 >>=20 >> I don't have Eli's fix, to compare, and I can't >> follow your diff wrt the text I see in Emacs 30, >> so I can't tell what, in your suggested text, you >> think actually responds to _this_ bug, which I >> filed. >>=20 >> This bug is only about this existing text, which >> I can't fathom (and "places" should be "place"): >>=20 >> "Conversely, when you insert a closing delimiter >> over an existing one, no insertion takes places, >> and that position is simply skipped over." >>=20 >> (And the node-name abbreviation shouldn't just be >> "Matching". There are lots of kinds of matching >> in Emacs; please don't hijack that term for this.) >>=20 >> If you fix this bug, then fine. But please make >> your other changes independently of this bug fix. >> Or at least make very clear what part of your fix >> actually corresponds to fixing this bug. Thx. > > The original bug was already fixed. Stephen reopened it, but the > changes he suggests to install have nothing to do with the original > report. I respectfully disagree, and in my first reply to Drew tried to explain why I felt it was legitimate to add to this bug. But if you want a new bug report for my proposed changes, then I'll make one and close this one again. Steve Berman
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
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From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#78021: 30.1; Unclear sentence in
(emacs)Matching
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On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 17:05:19 +0000 Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> wrot=
e:
>> > This bug is only about this existing text, which
>> > I can't fathom (and "places" should be "place"):
>> >
>> > "Conversely, when you insert a closing delimiter
>> > over an existing one, no insertion takes places,
>> > and that position is simply skipped over."
>> >
>> > (And the node-name abbreviation shouldn't just be
>> > "Matching". There are lots of kinds of matching
>> > in Emacs; please don't hijack that term for this.)
>> >
>> > If you fix this bug, then fine. But please make
>> > your other changes independently of this bug fix.
>> > Or at least make very clear what part of your fix
>> > actually corresponds to fixing this bug. Thx.
>>=20
>> Here is Eli's clarification of the bit you found wanting:
>>=20
>> "However, if you insert a closing delimiter where one already exists
>> (probably a mistake, since typing the opening delimiter inserted the
>> closing one for you), Emacs simply moves point to after the closing
>> delimiter, skipping the insertion."
>>=20
>> And here is my reformulation, which includes a more complete descriptio=
n
>> of the behavior, which I think is needed to understand the
>> functionality:
>>=20
>> "However, if you type a closing delimiter at a buffer position
>> between matching delimiters of the same type with only white space
>> between the delimiters, then by default Emacs simply moves point to
>> after the closing delimiter and does not insert another one."
>
> "Matching" delimiters implies matching delimiters of
> the same type, no?
Yes, but the point is that matching delimiters must also be of the same
type as the closing delimiter that is typed in the region that the
matching delimiters surround; e.g., if you type ")", the matching
delimiters must "(" and ")", not "[" and "]".
> Not clear enough:
>
> "with only white space between the delimiters".
> Only whitespace between which delimiters? There are=20
> presumably at least 3 delimiters in this scenario, one
> opening and two closing.
The scenario is like this: "some text ( ) more text", and the user
types ")" somewhere between the pair of parens. If you can think of a
clearer way of describing this just as briefly, I would be grateful (Eli
requested that the node should not become much longer).
> Not clear enough:
>
> "to after the closing delimiter".
> Which closing delimiter?
The one in the text scenario given above, which is the only actual
closing delimiter character in the text -- the "other closing delimiter"
is still just the key being typed, but the character is not inserted (as
the description says). Here, too, I would welcome a clearer but just as
brief description.
> Immediately after it?
> If not, where after it?
Yes, immediately or directly after it. Perhaps adding one of those
words would be acceptable.
>> But I also made numerous other changes in this documentation, for
>> reasons I listed in my emacs-devel post, which is included in the post
>> you replied to and should be readable at the URL I provided above.
>> Admittedly, my other changes widen the scope of your bug report, but I
>> took that to be legitimate, since it's still about clarifying the
>> documentation of Electric Pair mode. If you disagree, then I apologize
>> for hijacking your bug report (though I don't see it that way), but at
>> this point I would rather not open a new bug report and repeat
>> everything there; I hope you can accept that.
>
> I don't intend to review all of your proposed text.
> I'll review the text that fixes the bug I filed.
>
> And please change the name of the node (the name
> used by `g' etc.) from just "Matching" to something
> else, preferably something that indicates it's
> about matching delimiters. That too is part of
> this bug/enhancement request.
Making such a change is the maintainers' prerogative; the (cogent)
argument against such a change is that, being a long-standing node name,
changing it could well break references in external info files or other
formats derived from them, like web pages.
> Thanks for working on this. And thank you for
> providing the proposed text (for the part concerning
> this bug). When reviewing doc changes we shouldn't
> have to decipher a diff or apply it.
Since dealing with diffs is standard fare here, and they are generally
required by those who decide whether to accept the changes, and those
who install the changes to the source repository, I don't think it's
unduly burdensome on other interested participants to expect them to be
able to deal with them too.
Steve Berman
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 78021) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2025 18:31:46 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 25 14:31:46 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52826 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1u8Npy-0005dV-3Z for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2025 14:31:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54074) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1u8Npv-0005dG-CU for 78021 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 Apr 2025 14:31:43 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1u8Npp-00058L-6W; Fri, 25 Apr 2025 14:31:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=cKT4sr5cHwqguCY2Hdvp/qFW2kgSGF1u7XeoOcCyjnw=; b=WqNntFB2YVkh 2BSe7Crp8xHgpVIa3B0acrb32mYh/pvemdAXmoVAb1QV5N6FoMmidRvQ4ZKf/++qTe3UxyGVkyKS9 ocaObDeO0r3d10uh9QJECng8HjOZyaIJpxULYnuep42O1Xn85M+8jRt4j2nfXOw+kJbQws/umMh/V AdECImTG2L7RqdHlSDgg8lvYXTurM8/nwYZGc1FgDSbJNJec1wV8Z28Mga2+tktQ0eBeoPxMMgcSr o9lvs8TEXvRP6w1HO9kMAubW7aERUbfaBl8wUTypzekiENNEDg5T/vSavukvcGULrj2fFvhsuQjj0 AAxJ5wYqmb8CHruaKfjoxw==; Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 21:31:22 +0300 Message-Id: <86r01gw0sl.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB5232CF28E551FCEC4364B1B8F3842@HIDDEN> (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 25 Apr 2025 15:51:31 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#78021: 30.1; Unclear sentence in (emacs)Matching References: <DS7PR10MB5232E5F21321C3DE85A4B7E5F3BA2@HIDDEN> <868qnqylg0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ldro73nd.fsf@HIDDEN> <DS7PR10MB5232CF28E551FCEC4364B1B8F3842@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78021 Cc: 78021 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stephen.berman@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > CC: "eliz@HIDDEN" <eliz@HIDDEN> > Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 15:51:31 +0000 > > I don't have Eli's fix, to compare, and I can't > follow your diff wrt the text I see in Emacs 30, > so I can't tell what, in your suggested text, you > think actually responds to _this_ bug, which I > filed. > > This bug is only about this existing text, which > I can't fathom (and "places" should be "place"): > > "Conversely, when you insert a closing delimiter > over an existing one, no insertion takes places, > and that position is simply skipped over." > > (And the node-name abbreviation shouldn't just be > "Matching". There are lots of kinds of matching > in Emacs; please don't hijack that term for this.) > > If you fix this bug, then fine. But please make > your other changes independently of this bug fix. > Or at least make very clear what part of your fix > actually corresponds to fixing this bug. Thx. The original bug was already fixed. Stephen reopened it, but the changes he suggests to install have nothing to do with the original report.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
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There are lots of kinds of matching > > in Emacs; please don't hijack that term for this.) > > > > If you fix this bug, then fine. But please make > > your other changes independently of this bug fix. > > Or at least make very clear what part of your fix > > actually corresponds to fixing this bug. Thx. >=20 > Here is Eli's clarification of the bit you found wanting: >=20 > "However, if you insert a closing delimiter where one already exists > (probably a mistake, since typing the opening delimiter inserted the > closing one for you), Emacs simply moves point to after the closing > delimiter, skipping the insertion." >=20 > And here is my reformulation, which includes a more complete description > of the behavior, which I think is needed to understand the > functionality: >=20 > "However, if you type a closing delimiter at a buffer position > between matching delimiters of the same type with only white space > between the delimiters, then by default Emacs simply moves point to > after the closing delimiter and does not insert another one." "Matching" delimiters implies matching delimiters of the same type, no? Not clear enough: "with only white space between the delimiters". Only whitespace between which delimiters? There are=20 presumably at least 3 delimiters in this scenario, one opening and two closing. Not clear enough: "to after the closing delimiter". Which closing delimiter? Immediately after it? If not, where after it? > But I also made numerous other changes in this documentation, for > reasons I listed in my emacs-devel post, which is included in the post > you replied to and should be readable at the URL I provided above. > Admittedly, my other changes widen the scope of your bug report, but I > took that to be legitimate, since it's still about clarifying the > documentation of Electric Pair mode. If you disagree, then I apologize > for hijacking your bug report (though I don't see it that way), but at > this point I would rather not open a new bug report and repeat > everything there; I hope you can accept that. I don't intend to review all of your proposed text. I'll review the text that fixes the bug I filed. And please change the name of the node (the name used by `g' etc.) from just "Matching" to something else, preferably something that indicates it's about matching delimiters. That too is part of this bug/enhancement request. Thanks for working on this. And thank you for providing the proposed text (for the part concerning this bug). When reviewing doc changes we shouldn't have to decipher a diff or apply it.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
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<78021 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 15:51:31 +0000 Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> wrot= e: > I don't have Eli's fix, to compare,=20 I included the diff of his fix in my post, so I wonder why you can't see it there; I also see it in the mailing list archive: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2025-04/msg01589.html But I will quote from his fix below for your convenience. > and I can't > follow your diff wrt the text I see in Emacs 30, This is because my diff was against the current emacs-30 branch, which contains Eli's changes. But again, you should be able to see his diff at the above URL (and in my post). > so I can't tell what, in your suggested text, you > think actually responds to _this_ bug, which I > filed. > > This bug is only about this existing text, which > I can't fathom (and "places" should be "place"): > > "Conversely, when you insert a closing delimiter > over an existing one, no insertion takes places, > and that position is simply skipped over." > > (And the node-name abbreviation shouldn't just be > "Matching". There are lots of kinds of matching > in Emacs; please don't hijack that term for this.) > > If you fix this bug, then fine. But please make > your other changes independently of this bug fix. > Or at least make very clear what part of your fix > actually corresponds to fixing this bug. Thx. Here is Eli's clarification of the bit you found wanting: "However, if you insert a closing delimiter where one already exists (probably a mistake, since typing the opening delimiter inserted the closing one for you), Emacs simply moves point to after the closing delimiter, skipping the insertion." And here is my reformulation, which includes a more complete description of the behavior, which I think is needed to understand the functionality: "However, if you type a closing delimiter at a buffer position between matching delimiters of the same type with only white space between the delimiters, then by default Emacs simply moves point to after the closing delimiter and does not insert another one." But I also made numerous other changes in this documentation, for reasons I listed in my emacs-devel post, which is included in the post you replied to and should be readable at the URL I provided above. Admittedly, my other changes widen the scope of your bug report, but I took that to be legitimate, since it's still about clarifying the documentation of Electric Pair mode. If you disagree, then I apologize for hijacking your bug report (though I don't see it that way), but at this point I would rather not open a new bug report and repeat everything there; I hope you can accept that. Steve Berman
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
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From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>
To: 78021 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#78021: 30.1; Unclear sentence in (emacs)Matching
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--=-=-=
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reopen 78021
thanks
(In light of the posts related to this bug on emacs-devel, included
below for convenience, I've reopened this bug and am following up here.)
On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 18:30:37 +0300 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>> From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2025 16:15:16 +0200
>>=20
>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 05:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:
>>=20
>> > branch: emacs-30
>> > commit a975232c0fd7bbcce39f904518bd068a879ea4f0
>> > Author: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
>> > Commit: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
>> >
>> > ; * doc/emacs/programs.texi (Matching): Fix wording (bug#78021).
>> > ---
>> > doc/emacs/programs.texi | 25 ++++++++++++++-----------
>> > 1 file changed, 14 insertions(+), 11 deletions(-)
>> >
>> > diff --git a/doc/emacs/programs.texi b/doc/emacs/programs.texi
>> > index e155092676b..820a772104e 100644
>> > --- a/doc/emacs/programs.texi
>> > +++ b/doc/emacs/programs.texi
>> > @@ -960,11 +960,11 @@ argument specifies the number of levels to go do=
wn.
>> >=20=20
>> > @node Matching
>> > @subsection Matching Parentheses
>> > -@cindex matching parentheses
>> > +@cindex matching, parentheses and other paired delimiters
>> > @cindex parentheses, displaying matches
>> >=20=20
>> > - Emacs has a number of @dfn{parenthesis matching} features, which
>> > -make it easy to see how and whether parentheses (or other delimiters)
>> > + Emacs has a number of @dfn{parenthesis matching} features, which ma=
ke
>> > +it easy to see how and whether parentheses (or other paired delimiter=
s)
>> > match up.
>> >=20=20
>> > Whenever you type a self-inserting character that is a closing
>> > @@ -1065,14 +1065,17 @@ nonblank line.
>> > @findex electric-pair-mode
>> > Electric Pair mode, a global minor mode, provides a way to easily
>> > insert matching delimiters: parentheses, braces, brackets, etc.
>> > -Whenever you insert an opening delimiter, the matching closing
>> > -delimiter is automatically inserted as well, leaving point between the
>> > -two. Conversely, when you insert a closing delimiter over an existing
>> > -one, no insertion takes places, and that position is simply skipped
>> > -over. If the region is active (@pxref{Mark}), insertion of a
>> > -delimiter operates on the region: the characters in the region are
>> > -enclosed in a pair of matching delimiters, leaving point after the
>> > -delimiter you typed.
>> > +Whenever you insert an opening delimiter, the matching closing delimi=
ter
>> > +is automatically inserted as well, leaving point between the two.
>> > +However, if you insert a closing delimiter where one already exists
>> > +(probably a mistake, since typing the opening delimiter inserted the
>> > +closing one for you), Emacs simply moves point to after the closing
>> > +delimiter, skipping the insertion. If the region is active
>> > +(@pxref{Mark}), insertion of a delimiter operates on the region: the
>> > +characters in the region are enclosed in a pair of matching delimiter=
s,
>> > +leaving point after the delimiter you typed. If you provide a prefix
>> > +argument when inserting a delimiter, the numeric value of that prefix
>> > +argument specifies the number of pairs to insert.
>> >=20=20
>> > These variables control additional features of Electric Pair mode:
>>=20=20=20
>> I think the documentation of Electric Pair mode (both before and after
>> the change), is incomplete or inaccurate in several respects:
>>=20
>> - What counts as paired delimiters can vary with the mode (e.g.,
>> emacs-lisp-mode includes ` and ', and latex-mode includes $).
>>=20
>> - Whether typing an opening delimiter automatically inserts the matching
>> closing delimiter depends both on the presence or absence of a
>> following unmatched closing delimiter as well as on the value of
>> electric-pair-preserve-balance.
>>=20
>> - Unless the region is active (see below), typing a closing delimiter
>> anywere (not just where a closing delimiter already is) does not
>> insert the matching opening delimiter but is just like typing a
>> non-delimiter self-inserting character.
>>=20
>> - With a numeric prefix argument N, typing an opening delimiter normally
>> (but see below) inserts N nested (not sequential) paired delimiters
>> and leaves point directly after the innermost opening delimiter, while
>> typing a closing delimiter inserts N nested paired delimiters only
>> with an active region, leaving point directly after the outermost
>> closing delimiter. If there is an unmatched closing delimiter, then
>> typing the opening delimiter with a numeric prefix argument inserts
>> just N copies of the opening delimiter, not N nested paired delimiters
>> (even if electric-pair-preserve-balance is non-nil, which might be
>> considered a bug).
>>=20
>> - The user option electric-pair-preserve-balance only affects the
>> behavior of opening delimiters (I haven't yet tested the other
>> Electric Pair mode user options).
>>=20
>> Should the documentation be amended accordingly?
>
> I think so, but please try to be as concise as possible, and secondary
> details could be omitted entirely. I wouldn't want to have this node
> bloated too much because of this minor feature.
>
> For example, your first point could be addressed by adding just this:
>
> What counts as paired delimiters depends on the major mode.
>
> Thanks.
I've attached a patch for emacs-30 and have several remarks concerning
it. First, regarding my first point above, since the parent node
already says "The major mode controls which delimiters are significant
[...]", I now think there is no need to reiterate it here.
Second, in the first paragraphs of the patch I've tried to describe the
default behavior concisely and completely; however, the sentence about
the numeric prefix argument, which evidently comes from the
documentation in master, is not suitable for emacs-30: the use of the
prefix argument was added (together with its documentation) as a result
of bug#72437 only to master. If my doc changes for emacs-30 are
acceptable, they should be added to master as well, but not merged,
because of the prefix argument doc. But in addition, in testing the use
of the prefix argument I've encountered what seems like buggy behavior,
one instance of which I pointed out above; I'm still investigating this
and plan to file a bug report about it. A doc patch for master should
await the outcome of that.
Third, concerning the user options, I think it's better not to use the
phrase "when non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99", which is in all cases the default =
value: for
electric-pair-preserve-balance, the behavior with that value was already
described, so it's better (and more parsimonious) to focus on the
behavior with the non-default value here; and for the other three
options a user-defined function is also allowed as value, which of
course is non-nil, but I don't think documenting this value is
appropriate for the Emacs manual, so I think it's better just to say "by
default".
Finally, in the description of electric-pair-preserve-balance the
penultimate parenthetical sentence seems like a rather shamefaced
admission of a bug. Indeed, it does strike me as a bug, and I have a
simple fix that makes setting this option to nil have the same effect
with an active region as without, according to my initial testing. I
will file a bug report and include the patch. If the maintainers agree
that this is a bug and that the patch fixes it, then the parenthetical
sentence can be removed. But whether that goes only for master or also
for emacs-30 is also for the maintainers to decide.
Steve Berman
--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: attachment
Content-Description: electric pair mode doc patch
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
diff --git a/doc/emacs/programs.texi b/doc/emacs/programs.texi
index 820a772104e..ff8cf904915 100644
=2D-- a/doc/emacs/programs.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/programs.texi
@@ -1063,52 +1063,65 @@ Matching
@cindex Electric Pair mode
@cindex inserting matching parentheses
@findex electric-pair-mode
- Electric Pair mode, a global minor mode, provides a way to easily
-insert matching delimiters: parentheses, braces, brackets, etc.
-Whenever you insert an opening delimiter, the matching closing delimiter
-is automatically inserted as well, leaving point between the two.
-However, if you insert a closing delimiter where one already exists
-(probably a mistake, since typing the opening delimiter inserted the
-closing one for you), Emacs simply moves point to after the closing
-delimiter, skipping the insertion. If the region is active
-(@pxref{Mark}), insertion of a delimiter operates on the region: the
-characters in the region are enclosed in a pair of matching delimiters,
-leaving point after the delimiter you typed. If you provide a prefix
-argument when inserting a delimiter, the numeric value of that prefix
-argument specifies the number of pairs to insert.
-
-These variables control additional features of Electric Pair mode:
+ Electric Pair mode is a minor mode that provides a way to easily
+insert matching delimiters: parentheses, braces, brackets, quotes, etc.
+To toggle Electric Pair mode globally, type @kbd{M-x
+electric-pair-mode}. To toggle it only in the current buffer, type
+@kbd{M-x electric-pair-local-mode}.
+
+ When this mode is enabled and you type an opening delimiter, then by
+default the matching closing delimiter is normally automatically
+inserted as well, leaving point between the two. However, if there is
+an unmatched closing delimiter later in the buffer, then by default
+typing an opening delimiter inserts just that character, in order to
+balance opening and closing delimiters.
+
+ This makes it unnecessary to type a closing delimiter, and doing so
+normally simply inserts that character. However, if you type a closing
+delimiter at a buffer position between matching delimiters of the same
+type with only white space between the delimiters, then by default Emacs
+simply moves point to after the closing delimiter and does not insert
+another one.
+
+ If the region is active (@pxref{Mark}), inserting either an opening or
+a closing delimiter encloses the characters in the region within the
+resulting pair of matching delimiters, leaving point after the delimiter
+you typed.
+
+ There are several user options for changing the default behavior of
+Electric Pair mode:
=20
@itemize @bullet
@item
@vindex electric-pair-preserve-balance
-@code{electric-pair-preserve-balance}, when non-@code{nil}, makes the
-default pairing logic balance out the number of opening and closing
-delimiters.
+@code{electric-pair-preserve-balance}, when set to @code{nil}, makes
+typing an opening delimiter insert only that character, thus overriding
+the default pairing logic of balancing the number of opening and closing
+delimiters. (However, if the region is active, setting this option to
+@code{nil} has no effect.) The default is non-@code{nil} (on).
=20
@item
@vindex electric-pair-delete-adjacent-pairs
-@code{electric-pair-delete-adjacent-pairs}, when non-@code{nil}, makes
-backspacing between two adjacent delimiters also automatically delete
-the closing delimiter.
+@code{electric-pair-delete-adjacent-pairs}, by default, makes
+backspacing between two adjacent delimiters delete not only the opening
+delimiter but also the closing delimiter.
=20
@item
@vindex electric-pair-open-newline-between-pairs
-@code{electric-pair-open-newline-between-pairs}, when non-@code{nil},
-makes inserting a newline between two adjacent pairs also
-automatically open an extra newline after point.
+@code{electric-pair-open-newline-between-pairs}, by default, makes
+inserting a newline between two adjacent pairs also automatically open
+an extra newline after point.
=20
@item
@vindex electric-pair-skip-whitespace
-@code{electric-pair-skip-whitespace}, when non-@code{nil}, causes the min=
or
-mode to skip whitespace forward before deciding whether to skip over
-the closing delimiter.
+@code{electric-pair-skip-whitespace}, by default, makes typing a closing
+delimiter between matching delimiters of the same type behave as
+described above. You can set this option to additionally delete any
+white space skipped over. You can also set it not to skip over the
+following closing delimiter but simply insert a closing delimiter at
+point (thus making the following delimiter unbalanced).
@end itemize
=20
-To toggle Electric Pair mode, type @kbd{M-x electric-pair-mode}. To
-toggle the mode in a single buffer, use @kbd{M-x
-electric-pair-local-mode}.
-
@node Comments
@section Manipulating Comments
@cindex comments
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 78021-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2025 09:10:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 24 05:10:24 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35909 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1u7sbA-0007mU-3X for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2025 05:10:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60582) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1u7sb6-0007lx-OG for 78021-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2025 05:10:21 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1u7sb0-0006jH-QT; Thu, 24 Apr 2025 05:10:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=BmcPAbCY6k1r7/2cUxUzhi4pLLloc3gt1NEr9Ovntts=; b=OFXlf05Dms5I 3gseeLThyuIVepFoMVCAd+Ca6fdduIAJp8NI+4J6L1x7/DdoYFHKoV7rzZO/N08/fej90XUsyLS4n D3xD1VkIjNAPo4zpRkxup3VSDx3Pocn8AN4V46lSg13DIvG2VxR7b3P+XvzTdis9rcS2+GWWcXDZ1 4mvzyN87U18eDn1o6Bf4LIZbrbjOWQMO6N0c1AdQO+vT+H81asjyhzAh0rBhqdRtSAuI9WfiUaqQ7 cte7xi98JXqnLreF0AdBbNXKe5KONAtgQN7crh+bAfwMJ60/44EuIIGX4worPkkwdwYeIvwRnTYcF uKK4NrrjBrdFfEw5ZpqcEQ==; Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2025 12:10:07 +0300 Message-Id: <868qnqylg0.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <DS7PR10MB5232E5F21321C3DE85A4B7E5F3BA2@HIDDEN> (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN) Subject: Re: bug#78021: 30.1; Unclear sentence in (emacs)Matching References: <DS7PR10MB5232E5F21321C3DE85A4B7E5F3BA2@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78021-done Cc: 78021-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2025 22:42:49 +0000 > From: Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> > > In (emacs)Matching (not a great name for the node abbreviation, BTW), > this sentence is unclear: > > "Conversely, when you insert a closing delimiter over an existing one, > No insertion takes places, and that position is simply skipped over." > > What does it mean to insert a closing delimiter "over an existing one"? > No idea what this is trying to say, or why it's deemed the "converse" of > what happens when you insert an opening delimiter. > > Presumably it should include something about what happens to the > "existing" closing delimiter, and something about point, if it hopes to > convey the converse behavior. Thanks, I've fixed the wording on the emacs-30 branch.
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envelope-from=drew.adams@HIDDEN; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) In (emacs)Matching (not a great name for the node abbreviation, BTW), this sentence is unclear: "Conversely, when you insert a closing delimiter over an existing one, No insertion takes places, and that position is simply skipped over." What does it mean to insert a closing delimiter "over an existing one"? No idea what this is trying to say, or why it's deemed the "converse" of what happens when you insert an opening delimiter. Presumably it should include something about what happens to the "existing" closing delimiter, and something about point, if it hopes to convey the converse behavior. In GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 2, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2025-02-23 built on AVALON Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.26100 System Description: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (v10.0.2009.26100.3775) Configured using: 'configure --with-modules --without-dbus --with-native-compilation=3Daot --without-compress-install --with-tree-sitter CFLAGS=3D-O2 prefix=3D/g/rel/install/emacs-30.1' Configured features: ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP XPM ZLIB (NATIVE_COMP present but libgccjit not available) Important settings: value of $LANG: ENU locale-coding-system: cp1252
Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78021; Package emacs.
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Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
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