GNU logs - #78304, boring messages

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 07 May 2025 21:35:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B.17466536871611 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
To: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2025 17:34:33 -0400
Message-ID: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.215.233.18; envelope-from=sbaugh@HIDDEN;
 helo=mxout5.mail.janestreet.com
X-Spam_score_int: -43
X-Spam_score: -4.4
X-Spam_bar: ----
X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1,
 DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1,
 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001,
 RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001,
 SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
X-Spam_action: no action
X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/)


There are many useful things which can only be done by code in
early-init.el.  Such things can't be done by code on the command line,
because --eval runs after init.el has been loaded - much too late to,
for example, configure package.el or set initial frame parameters.

We should add an --early-eval argument to allow doing things which need
to run at early-init time on the command line.

I'm happy to add this if that sounds reasonable to others.

(One extremely hacky alternative is to use --init-directory to point the
user-emacs-directory to a directory which contains an early-init.el
file, then reset user-emacs-directory back to its normal value at the
start of that early-init.el.  But that's quite fragile and much harder)


In GNU Emacs 31.0.50 (build 38, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
 3.22.30, cairo version 1.15.12) of 2025-05-01 built on igm-qws-u22796a
Repository revision: fee7b40efadc3e3ebc62f1f845837cc97bd84606
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12011000
System Description: Rocky Linux 8.10 (Green Obsidian)

Configured using:
 'configure -C --with-gif=no'

Configured features:
CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GLIB GMP GNUTLS GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG LIBSELINUX
LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG
SECCOMP SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS X11 XDBE XIM
XINERAMA XINPUT2 XPM XRANDR GTK3 ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Fundamental

Minor modes in effect:
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  minibuffer-regexp-mode: t
  buffer-read-only: t
  line-number-mode: t
  indent-tabs-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr compile comint ansi-osc ansi-color ring emacsbug
lisp-mnt message mailcap yank-media puny dired dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml
mml-sec password-cache epa derived epg rfc6068 epg-config gnus-util
text-property-search time-date subr-x mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode
mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047
rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils comp-run bytecomp
byte-compile comp-common rx warnings icons cl-loaddefs cl-lib rmc
iso-transl tooltip cconv eldoc paren electric uniquify ediff-hook
vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel term/x-win x-win
term/common-win x-dnd touch-screen tool-bar dnd fontset image fringe
tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register
page tab-bar menu-bar regexp-opt rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu timer
select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax font-core
term/tty-colors frame minibuffer nadvice seq simple cl-generic
indonesian philippine cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese
tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek
romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese
composite emoji-zwj charscript charprop case-table epa-hook
jka-cmpr-hook help abbrev obarray oclosure cl-preloaded button loaddefs
theme-loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties
overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget keymap
hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind inotify
dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting cairo gtk
x-toolkit xinput2 x multi-tty move-toolbar make-network-process
tty-child-frames native-compile emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 89189 8663) (symbols 48 6857 0) (strings 32 24530 1634)
 (string-bytes 1 814844) (vectors 16 15667)
 (vector-slots 8 187526 6377) (floats 8 35 1) (intervals 56 408 19)
 (buffers 984 12))

Message sent:

Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#78304: Acknowledgement (31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the
 command line)
Message-ID: <handler.78304.B.17466536871611.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
X-Gnu-PR-Message: ack 78304
X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs
Reply-To: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Date: Wed, 07 May 2025 21:35:02 +0000

Thank you for filing a new bug report with debbugs.gnu.org.

This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message
has been received.

Your message is being forwarded to the package maintainers and other
interested parties for their attention; they will reply in due course.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN

If you wish to submit further information on this problem, please
send it to 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org.

Please do not send mail to help-debbugs@HIDDEN unless you wish
to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

--=20
78304: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D78304
GNU Bug Tracking System
Contact help-debbugs@HIDDEN with problems

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 08 May 2025 05:29:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.174668209518453 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Date: Thu, 08 May 2025 08:28:03 +0300
Message-Id: <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 (bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN)
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Precedence: list
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>

> Date: Wed, 07 May 2025 17:34:33 -0400
> From:  Spencer Baugh via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
> 
> 
> There are many useful things which can only be done by code in
> early-init.el.  Such things can't be done by code on the command line,
> because --eval runs after init.el has been loaded - much too late to,
> for example, configure package.el or set initial frame parameters.
> 
> We should add an --early-eval argument to allow doing things which need
> to run at early-init time on the command line.
> 
> I'm happy to add this if that sounds reasonable to others.
> 
> (One extremely hacky alternative is to use --init-directory to point the
> user-emacs-directory to a directory which contains an early-init.el
> file, then reset user-emacs-directory back to its normal value at the
> start of that early-init.el.  But that's quite fragile and much harder)

This is a slippery slope.  The initial stages of the startup are a
delicate process, basically a kind-of bootstrap, whereby Emacs needs
to initialize itself while taking into consideration the various
customizations which affect the initialization.  The startup.el code
is replete with evidence to that: for example, look how many times we
call startup--update-eln-cache, custom-reevaluate-setting and
frame-notice-user-settings.

We are already on this slippery slope, with early-init file, the
'--init-directory' option (which, btw, already shows its subtle
unexpected aspects), and other similar enhancements.  This causes
numerous bug reports and non-trivial maintenance burden, because
people rightfully expect these features to work as a naïve user would
expect, without understanding all the subtleties and problematic
nature of the startup process.

So I'm firmly against extending Emacs in these directions, because the
costs far outweigh the advantages, and because requests of this kind
usually serve a small number (as in 1) of users who have peculiar
desires, while all the rest are perfectly okay with what we already
have.

If you want this request to be considered seriously, please describe
the specific use cases where you think this is needed, and please
explain: why you couldn't do this using the existing facilities
(including early-init file), and how would the proposed changes serve
enough Emacs users to justify the maintenance costs.  Because
arguments of the kind "we should add --early-eval" are a huge
non-starter for me, since I have some idea how the command-line
arguments are processed in Emacs.

So, basically: thanks, but no, thanks.  However, I'm open to hear some
starking unexpected gap in our features that is entirely impossible to
solve unless we add something.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 08 May 2025 16:27:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.17467215939688 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 08 May
 2025 08:28:03 +0300")
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 08 May 2025 12:26:24 -0400
Message-ID: <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Precedence: list
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Date: Wed, 07 May 2025 17:34:33 -0400
>> From:  Spencer Baugh via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
>>=20
>>=20
>> There are many useful things which can only be done by code in
>> early-init.el.  Such things can't be done by code on the command line,
>> because --eval runs after init.el has been loaded - much too late to,
>> for example, configure package.el or set initial frame parameters.
>>=20
>> We should add an --early-eval argument to allow doing things which need
>> to run at early-init time on the command line.
>>=20
>> I'm happy to add this if that sounds reasonable to others.
>>=20
>> (One extremely hacky alternative is to use --init-directory to point the
>> user-emacs-directory to a directory which contains an early-init.el
>> file, then reset user-emacs-directory back to its normal value at the
>> start of that early-init.el.  But that's quite fragile and much harder)
>
> This is a slippery slope.  The initial stages of the startup are a
> delicate process, basically a kind-of bootstrap, whereby Emacs needs
> to initialize itself while taking into consideration the various
> customizations which affect the initialization.  The startup.el code
> is replete with evidence to that: for example, look how many times we
> call startup--update-eln-cache, custom-reevaluate-setting and
> frame-notice-user-settings.
>
> We are already on this slippery slope, with early-init file, the
> '--init-directory' option (which, btw, already shows its subtle
> unexpected aspects), and other similar enhancements.  This causes
> numerous bug reports and non-trivial maintenance burden, because
> people rightfully expect these features to work as a na=C3=AFve user would
> expect, without understanding all the subtleties and problematic
> nature of the startup process.
>
> So I'm firmly against extending Emacs in these directions, because the
> costs far outweigh the advantages, and because requests of this kind
> usually serve a small number (as in 1) of users who have peculiar
> desires, while all the rest are perfectly okay with what we already
> have.
>
> If you want this request to be considered seriously, please describe
> the specific use cases where you think this is needed, and please
> explain: why you couldn't do this using the existing facilities
> (including early-init file), and how would the proposed changes serve
> enough Emacs users to justify the maintenance costs.  Because
> arguments of the kind "we should add --early-eval" are a huge
> non-starter for me, since I have some idea how the command-line
> arguments are processed in Emacs.
>
> So, basically: thanks, but no, thanks.  However, I'm open to hear some
> starking unexpected gap in our features that is entirely impossible to
> solve unless we add something.

That is reasonable.

The general use case is configuring things which need to be set in
early-init.el while running "emacs -q".

Two concrete use cases I have that are prompting this idea:

- Working with the new load-path-filter-function variable discussed on
  emacs-devel.  Since it speeds up all subsequent loads, it needs to be
  set at early-init.el time to have maximum effect, but I want to also
  be able to use it with emacs -q.

- Context: I'm developing some scripts to run Emacs in a simple
  reduced-functionality mode, which provide access to just one buffer
  running in a specific major mode, with the goal of making Emacs
  features accessible to users who don't currently use Emacs.  For
  example, vc-dir is generally useful, so a script to open Emacs running
  vc-dir on its own.  (These scripts are similar to things like
  https://github.com/maio/smagit and
  https://github.com/alphapapa/magit.sh )

  These scripts run with -q, but I need to be able to configure things
  about the initial frame, which can only be done with early-init.el.

The workaround that occurs to me is to run emacs without -q, but instead
with an --init-directory that contains an early-init.el which does
whatever configurations I want, and then at the end does

(setq init-file-user nil
      user-emacs-directory (startup--xdg-or-homedot startup--xdg-config-hom=
e-emacs nil))

to obtain the same behavior as -q, and also reset user-emacs-directory
back to its normal value.  Of course, this is hacky and quite fragile...

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 08 May 2025 16:42:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.174672250013369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78304
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 78304-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B78304.174672250013369
          (code B ref 78304); Thu, 08 May 2025 16:42:01 +0000
Received: (at 78304) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2025 16:41:40 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59344 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1uD4JX-0003TX-1g
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 May 2025 12:41:39 -0400
Received: from mail-vs1-xe35.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::e35]:48207)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128)
 (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <shipmints@HIDDEN>)
 id 1uD4JT-0003T0-Oz
 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 May 2025 12:41:37 -0400
Received: by mail-vs1-xe35.google.com with SMTP id
 ada2fe7eead31-4c32d6ddd50so404111137.0
 for <78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 08 May 2025 09:41:35 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1746722490; x=1747327290; darn=debbugs.gnu.org;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
 bh=tMXOjH+1aJ+aGSkCLZFGM6AOD1nj6UGFBEYqtRmm+8s=;
 b=jqUXIN9t9Tv9vnTaL3g/YDuxiWrm+Ylk8kytOpDX2VckSJqZTnYrwx+jAPNKCdWp+i
 MkPZDUUdIdC0oWSPsmy4iqfRibvgz1k27nAaa61HXwxhvIJzDYFO2mWcs5bsm6PhtyZI
 IGP9yMpQaMYBf6WWQYF1qtjCH1Csdv62MZHvrSJ3inCRGKnFKvuHfgO5h4yJucrLzLKk
 kYyHyBGPfebqU2ceCOYgjs7/3gs3Kk09SKEDZf8cmPM6laxc5rpY3rCCEw7SPuIbfQc+
 EB4b/ZmzI6TB6NOsX5FHut3aOcM272s41LBkKS6cbqHBws0W857fUME6PxGyCIcgnaVD
 mgEA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1746722490; x=1747327290;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
 :reply-to;
 bh=tMXOjH+1aJ+aGSkCLZFGM6AOD1nj6UGFBEYqtRmm+8s=;
 b=HBBbRJOmIjYyHIzWHRes5K1IKUpcTcRkKEAPXEyZ8XcJF7s4IHjnr1pMNTBgd2S6Rz
 BcYKHL9PiPmTGsRwBAM7dMmeknY0fq9T0n49PcAZVS9anmhaELHaaJq3j8WwxhfxBojw
 IOCEiTYg5+xTCWdoTC4Xc8n23mKVrUe/NclNEvkyr1QnuRUXAdNBRupPZzX3IYLkQttu
 MAx5mLYCTM9zYLEVPrpU5/jhC7S5BSFoEifQsLYtcPElA8k3LPfsKEthUIDTyL6ZA4Jy
 gR/iAoNPx8l5wW9QAeBoeu/KYAt+i2wdkGmAWSC9O7Wriu1TPEvtpp4lm89jBxHkjT1G
 dFZg==
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1;
 AJvYcCWLC30nAbqfXBJKqBkDeru2sRKp9Hm3RwyRhIbQf82tfxCekXFjTq5fQbm4FgO6e/dUI8L9aQ==@debbugs.gnu.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwhOo0Qrt5/d00cSl7fIN4h68PHrmaTPSw5q7m2zI0CBFTMVBJc
 jWl3LY1KmdmW11nC1J/FFF63pEky7zSZCYf/srPslm+p5s/X5LU9pNbKzBVzDQoSCFTkve4JD1r
 DGBYCx4iMtXBlKalf/EsEto3V2fA=
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvZWG2qRRrvcL4y8AR22V62K+aLN5RibNdfaGuI9hhtSBBCCeQE+tcfD9WckaK
 z9B1dWZuwhjZeT7kP0yY2+WrShyq7RUXKEKF+6aqHmgGeVLJ+WMTq0LrTnkN3OjemQKBWL3LD6U
 AUpdBHhVERTwdxMk7VDN6qYA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGA/j/Ks8Re0blxyQ8Jaa4PS91P4EalRIiSfJ67AmoJbc4WUyx3MNWYRdFIVBiyYQ4WKH75GhKGsk/ZPj0fjQE=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:4b06:b0:4de:ec1d:a990 with SMTP id
 ada2fe7eead31-4deec1db38fmr624867137.14.1746722489706; Thu, 08 May 2025
 09:41:29 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 12:41:18 -0400
X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFtrZWyzfmGnwp0HxikJua95vtfdk1S_sQ34i589_nLB2NdR3_wgzIi0VjU
Message-ID: <CAN+1HbphAX_7p3VAuWy=dtFfZNYRcRfMab7uJ7GRY10hVL5BUw@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000852bb50634a28582"
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

--000000000000852bb50634a28582
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 12:27=E2=80=AFPM Spencer Baugh via Bug reports for G=
NU
Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> wrote:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> >> Date: Wed, 07 May 2025 17:34:33 -0400
> >> From:  Spencer Baugh via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
> >>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
> >>
> >>
> >> There are many useful things which can only be done by code in
> >> early-init.el.  Such things can't be done by code on the command line,
> >> because --eval runs after init.el has been loaded - much too late to,
> >> for example, configure package.el or set initial frame parameters.
> >>
> >> We should add an --early-eval argument to allow doing things which nee=
d
> >> to run at early-init time on the command line.
> >>
> >> I'm happy to add this if that sounds reasonable to others.
> >>
> >> (One extremely hacky alternative is to use --init-directory to point t=
he
> >> user-emacs-directory to a directory which contains an early-init.el
> >> file, then reset user-emacs-directory back to its normal value at the
> >> start of that early-init.el.  But that's quite fragile and much harder=
)
> >
> > This is a slippery slope.  The initial stages of the startup are a
> > delicate process, basically a kind-of bootstrap, whereby Emacs needs
> > to initialize itself while taking into consideration the various
> > customizations which affect the initialization.  The startup.el code
> > is replete with evidence to that: for example, look how many times we
> > call startup--update-eln-cache, custom-reevaluate-setting and
> > frame-notice-user-settings.
> >
> > We are already on this slippery slope, with early-init file, the
> > '--init-directory' option (which, btw, already shows its subtle
> > unexpected aspects), and other similar enhancements.  This causes
> > numerous bug reports and non-trivial maintenance burden, because
> > people rightfully expect these features to work as a na=C3=AFve user wo=
uld
> > expect, without understanding all the subtleties and problematic
> > nature of the startup process.
> >
> > So I'm firmly against extending Emacs in these directions, because the
> > costs far outweigh the advantages, and because requests of this kind
> > usually serve a small number (as in 1) of users who have peculiar
> > desires, while all the rest are perfectly okay with what we already
> > have.
> >
> > If you want this request to be considered seriously, please describe
> > the specific use cases where you think this is needed, and please
> > explain: why you couldn't do this using the existing facilities
> > (including early-init file), and how would the proposed changes serve
> > enough Emacs users to justify the maintenance costs.  Because
> > arguments of the kind "we should add --early-eval" are a huge
> > non-starter for me, since I have some idea how the command-line
> > arguments are processed in Emacs.
> >
> > So, basically: thanks, but no, thanks.  However, I'm open to hear some
> > starking unexpected gap in our features that is entirely impossible to
> > solve unless we add something.
>
> That is reasonable.
>
> The general use case is configuring things which need to be set in
> early-init.el while running "emacs -q".
>
> Two concrete use cases I have that are prompting this idea:
>
> - Working with the new load-path-filter-function variable discussed on
>   emacs-devel.  Since it speeds up all subsequent loads, it needs to be
>   set at early-init.el time to have maximum effect, but I want to also
>   be able to use it with emacs -q.
>
> - Context: I'm developing some scripts to run Emacs in a simple
>   reduced-functionality mode, which provide access to just one buffer
>   running in a specific major mode, with the goal of making Emacs
>   features accessible to users who don't currently use Emacs.  For
>   example, vc-dir is generally useful, so a script to open Emacs running
>   vc-dir on its own.  (These scripts are similar to things like
>   https://github.com/maio/smagit and
>   https://github.com/alphapapa/magit.sh )
>
>   These scripts run with -q, but I need to be able to configure things
>   about the initial frame, which can only be done with early-init.el.
>
> The workaround that occurs to me is to run emacs without -q, but instead
> with an --init-directory that contains an early-init.el which does
> whatever configurations I want, and then at the end does
>
> (setq init-file-user nil
>       user-emacs-directory (startup--xdg-or-homedot
> startup--xdg-config-home-emacs nil))
>
> to obtain the same behavior as -q, and also reset user-emacs-directory
> back to its normal value.  Of course, this is hacky and quite fragile...
>

Perhaps adding -qe which would load early-init.el but not init.el loaded
might do?  If -qe filename.el, it could load that file in place of
early-init.el?

--000000000000852bb50634a28582
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 12:27=E2=80=AFPM Spencer Baugh via Bug reports for G=
NU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bug-gn=
u-emacs@HIDDEN">bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" targ=
et=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; Date: Wed, 07 May 2025 17:34:33 -0400<br>
&gt;&gt; From:=C2=A0 Spencer Baugh via &quot;Bug reports for GNU Emacs,<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 the Swiss army knife of text editors&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; There are many useful things which can only be done by code in<br>
&gt;&gt; early-init.el.=C2=A0 Such things can&#39;t be done by code on the =
command line,<br>
&gt;&gt; because --eval runs after init.el has been loaded - much too late =
to,<br>
&gt;&gt; for example, configure package.el or set initial frame parameters.=
<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; We should add an --early-eval argument to allow doing things which=
 need<br>
&gt;&gt; to run at early-init time on the command line.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m happy to add this if that sounds reasonable to others.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; (One extremely hacky alternative is to use --init-directory to poi=
nt the<br>
&gt;&gt; user-emacs-directory to a directory which contains an early-init.e=
l<br>
&gt;&gt; file, then reset user-emacs-directory back to its normal value at =
the<br>
&gt;&gt; start of that early-init.el.=C2=A0 But that&#39;s quite fragile an=
d much harder)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This is a slippery slope.=C2=A0 The initial stages of the startup are =
a<br>
&gt; delicate process, basically a kind-of bootstrap, whereby Emacs needs<b=
r>
&gt; to initialize itself while taking into consideration the various<br>
&gt; customizations which affect the initialization.=C2=A0 The startup.el c=
ode<br>
&gt; is replete with evidence to that: for example, look how many times we<=
br>
&gt; call startup--update-eln-cache, custom-reevaluate-setting and<br>
&gt; frame-notice-user-settings.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We are already on this slippery slope, with early-init file, the<br>
&gt; &#39;--init-directory&#39; option (which, btw, already shows its subtl=
e<br>
&gt; unexpected aspects), and other similar enhancements.=C2=A0 This causes=
<br>
&gt; numerous bug reports and non-trivial maintenance burden, because<br>
&gt; people rightfully expect these features to work as a na=C3=AFve user w=
ould<br>
&gt; expect, without understanding all the subtleties and problematic<br>
&gt; nature of the startup process.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So I&#39;m firmly against extending Emacs in these directions, because=
 the<br>
&gt; costs far outweigh the advantages, and because requests of this kind<b=
r>
&gt; usually serve a small number (as in 1) of users who have peculiar<br>
&gt; desires, while all the rest are perfectly okay with what we already<br=
>
&gt; have.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If you want this request to be considered seriously, please describe<b=
r>
&gt; the specific use cases where you think this is needed, and please<br>
&gt; explain: why you couldn&#39;t do this using the existing facilities<br=
>
&gt; (including early-init file), and how would the proposed changes serve<=
br>
&gt; enough Emacs users to justify the maintenance costs.=C2=A0 Because<br>
&gt; arguments of the kind &quot;we should add --early-eval&quot; are a hug=
e<br>
&gt; non-starter for me, since I have some idea how the command-line<br>
&gt; arguments are processed in Emacs.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So, basically: thanks, but no, thanks.=C2=A0 However, I&#39;m open to =
hear some<br>
&gt; starking unexpected gap in our features that is entirely impossible to=
<br>
&gt; solve unless we add something.<br>
<br>
That is reasonable.<br>
<br>
The general use case is configuring things which need to be set in<br>
early-init.el while running &quot;emacs -q&quot;.<br>
<br>
Two concrete use cases I have that are prompting this idea:<br>
<br>
- Working with the new load-path-filter-function variable discussed on<br>
=C2=A0 emacs-devel.=C2=A0 Since it speeds up all subsequent loads, it needs=
 to be<br>
=C2=A0 set at early-init.el time to have maximum effect, but I want to also=
<br>
=C2=A0 be able to use it with emacs -q.<br>
<br>
- Context: I&#39;m developing some scripts to run Emacs in a simple<br>
=C2=A0 reduced-functionality mode, which provide access to just one buffer<=
br>
=C2=A0 running in a specific major mode, with the goal of making Emacs<br>
=C2=A0 features accessible to users who don&#39;t currently use Emacs.=C2=
=A0 For<br>
=C2=A0 example, vc-dir is generally useful, so a script to open Emacs runni=
ng<br>
=C2=A0 vc-dir on its own.=C2=A0 (These scripts are similar to things like<b=
r>
=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://github.com/maio/smagit" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://github.com/maio/smagit</a> and<br>
=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://github.com/alphapapa/magit.sh" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/alphapapa/magit.sh</a> )<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 These scripts run with -q, but I need to be able to configure things=
<br>
=C2=A0 about the initial frame, which can only be done with early-init.el.<=
br>
<br>
The workaround that occurs to me is to run emacs without -q, but instead<br=
>
with an --init-directory that contains an early-init.el which does<br>
whatever configurations I want, and then at the end does<br>
<br>
(setq init-file-user nil<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 user-emacs-directory (startup--xdg-or-homedot startup-=
-xdg-config-home-emacs nil))<br>
<br>
to obtain the same behavior as -q, and also reset user-emacs-directory<br>
back to its normal value.=C2=A0 Of course, this is hacky and quite fragile.=
..<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace">Perhaps adding -qe which would load early-init.el but n=
ot init.el loaded might do?=C2=A0 If -qe filename.el, it could load that fi=
le in place of early-init.el?<br></div></div></div>

--000000000000852bb50634a28582--

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 08 May 2025 19:02:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.174673087213464 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78304
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 78304-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B78304.174673087213464
          (code B ref 78304); Thu, 08 May 2025 19:02:02 +0000
Received: (at 78304) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2025 19:01:12 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60132 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1uD6UZ-0003Uu-4J
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 May 2025 15:01:12 -0400
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39424)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uD6UW-0003Ua-QE
 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 May 2025 15:01:09 -0400
Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e])
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1uD6UQ-0002WW-Od; Thu, 08 May 2025 15:01:02 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=M8R8xTeO/Wq6FlDfgzK+REjg77Jz0m/7OD8bbnJqbyY=; b=Jvx0FNxJQMnN
 0pbIxXh3hZ17ocF+gqHXntrELkun+ccoGGEryJpB8ZaYLqdW1CKGnXyRHuI6ppJjcuX1BUplpwjbj
 duW9fkMKlJyFiOUW82s3zNAzgGFpa4EHhYKc4CLtmYPeFivrUYeNM4i4lpAk1J1y1jWDi0YqVOYnn
 la+WfbOvyZ7mZDdS+DhjXKOUrVwrNBeDsZ0LnQ0c+jZ37FTtsJ38pmScdvd1/mq7KsgCgvF3Us8Gy
 T3m1PGQkKXBDeRM2yVVdh4/tXFyK6s/+ASFbg9MrgmeqfQT/olJKz9A6Etc6+9ayMd4hH609+mJzj
 45SgcE57I6Ztf3imo8tIzA==;
Date: Thu, 08 May 2025 22:01:00 +0300
Message-Id: <86zffnc4gj.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Spencer Baugh on
 Thu, 08 May 2025 12:26:24 -0400)
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 08 May 2025 12:26:24 -0400
> 
> The general use case is configuring things which need to be set in
> early-init.el while running "emacs -q".
> 
> Two concrete use cases I have that are prompting this idea:
> 
> - Working with the new load-path-filter-function variable discussed on
>   emacs-devel.  Since it speeds up all subsequent loads, it needs to be
>   set at early-init.el time to have maximum effect, but I want to also
>   be able to use it with emacs -q.
> 
> - Context: I'm developing some scripts to run Emacs in a simple
>   reduced-functionality mode, which provide access to just one buffer
>   running in a specific major mode, with the goal of making Emacs
>   features accessible to users who don't currently use Emacs.  For
>   example, vc-dir is generally useful, so a script to open Emacs running
>   vc-dir on its own.  (These scripts are similar to things like
>   https://github.com/maio/smagit and
>   https://github.com/alphapapa/magit.sh )
> 
>   These scripts run with -q, but I need to be able to configure things
>   about the initial frame, which can only be done with early-init.el.
> 
> The workaround that occurs to me is to run emacs without -q, but instead
> with an --init-directory that contains an early-init.el which does
> whatever configurations I want, and then at the end does
> 
> (setq init-file-user nil
>       user-emacs-directory (startup--xdg-or-homedot startup--xdg-config-home-emacs nil))
> 
> to obtain the same behavior as -q, and also reset user-emacs-directory
> back to its normal value.  Of course, this is hacky and quite fragile...

Why cannot you do whatever you need in the site-init file?

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 18:11:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.17471598314050 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78304
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 78304-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B78304.17471598314050
          (code B ref 78304); Tue, 13 May 2025 18:11:01 +0000
Received: (at 78304) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 May 2025 18:10:31 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33466 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1uEu5H-00013G-5t
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:31 -0400
Received: from mxout5.mail.janestreet.com ([64.215.233.18]:39675)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <sbaugh@HIDDEN>)
 id 1uEu5F-00012p-EO
 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:29 -0400
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <86zffnc4gj.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 08 May
 2025 22:01:00 +0300")
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <86zffnc4gj.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400
Message-ID: <ier7c2kwfe7.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=janestreet.com;
 s=waixah; t=1747159824;
 bh=UECAGBZ18ZiHudRDibSE6uDselTji6EpgeFmVwGaFPc=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date;
 b=uHVX9hIo65kw5brcIEnOyAoYRKAvWbJi8dDKJ50R+w/ebt+dRjrzC6wHU9xxSJZJY
 x5yb0/LlzJ3u2cFsQXmoDDI/c0s07HBkCAiVFKXKNB2WFEiGfmz3+sHfEOhawjdcFm
 s3TGVeHORNq0ur5PxsgF1nNpRX78XA74EhBmdKKvUKjwpj7lqW6jKgnA5fYSyyc4FH
 S0ogkZAlALPlTDaVXHTIemHbRml9zmWal925APaYI2Tx8l75o7JVhCqmP/oshh8atk
 ieZ4Fgtv6k7TLvmpQ/mnjUYXhHDd3onmi8jf/ELA5nmDNYA4UHp+QCM1C+E7lavRf0
 2GRjpvTm6pylQ==
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 08 May 2025 12:26:24 -0400
>> 
>> The general use case is configuring things which need to be set in
>> early-init.el while running "emacs -q".
>> 
>> Two concrete use cases I have that are prompting this idea:
>> 
>> - Working with the new load-path-filter-function variable discussed on
>>   emacs-devel.  Since it speeds up all subsequent loads, it needs to be
>>   set at early-init.el time to have maximum effect, but I want to also
>>   be able to use it with emacs -q.
>> 
>> - Context: I'm developing some scripts to run Emacs in a simple
>>   reduced-functionality mode, which provide access to just one buffer
>>   running in a specific major mode, with the goal of making Emacs
>>   features accessible to users who don't currently use Emacs.  For
>>   example, vc-dir is generally useful, so a script to open Emacs running
>>   vc-dir on its own.  (These scripts are similar to things like
>>   https://github.com/maio/smagit and
>>   https://github.com/alphapapa/magit.sh )
>> 
>>   These scripts run with -q, but I need to be able to configure things
>>   about the initial frame, which can only be done with early-init.el.
>> 
>> The workaround that occurs to me is to run emacs without -q, but instead
>> with an --init-directory that contains an early-init.el which does
>> whatever configurations I want, and then at the end does
>> 
>> (setq init-file-user nil
>>       user-emacs-directory (startup--xdg-or-homedot startup--xdg-config-home-emacs nil))
>> 
>> to obtain the same behavior as -q, and also reset user-emacs-directory
>> back to its normal value.  Of course, this is hacky and quite fragile...
>
> Why cannot you do whatever you need in the site-init file?

By that I assume you mean site-start.el, since AFAIK site-init.el is not
loaded at runtime, only at dump time.

As (info "(elisp) Startup Summary") describes, site-start.el is loaded
after package-activate-all is called and the initial frame is set up.
It is therefore loaded too late to configure these things.

(Sorry, accidentally sent my previous reply directly only to Eli)

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 18:17:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.17471601896432 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78304
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 78304-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B78304.17471601896432
          (code B ref 78304); Tue, 13 May 2025 18:17:01 +0000
Received: (at 78304) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 May 2025 18:16:29 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33514 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1uEuB3-0001ff-79
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2025 14:16:29 -0400
Received: from mxout5.mail.janestreet.com ([64.215.233.18]:41175)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <sbaugh@HIDDEN>)
 id 1uEuB0-0001eu-C9
 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 May 2025 14:16:27 -0400
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <CAN+1HbphAX_7p3VAuWy=dtFfZNYRcRfMab7uJ7GRY10hVL5BUw@HIDDEN>
 (Ship Mints's message of "Thu, 8 May 2025 12:41:18 -0400")
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CAN+1HbphAX_7p3VAuWy=dtFfZNYRcRfMab7uJ7GRY10hVL5BUw@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:16:20 -0400
Message-ID: <ier34d8wf4b.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=janestreet.com;
 s=waixah; t=1747160180;
 bh=UU6zH/5sd4F3V3zrZ/MKnokdu368CjJw0K7lJbQ8i7Q=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date;
 b=mjzTWCicE9uUSjvzoJdwUD5vwPXU+MmdvWjcZ3iby4YZC9+3DPdwoO2EopifF2csT
 ZOk2BtZGKY4mGNbYBCeHmimqMDUMNqWwlF6uWR3rXcfbwBm3Z0UIkJ08wp7QtA3BuE
 pPYbTzgFh187hk4rQBOe1hdZeck851uLfhfaSVgggEkLJCF0nVdG5zqLYtUhhS3NCu
 lJqtEcguLfyz0a8Kb715OnqWPypiA56mqhLVbrwZcPr0CYtnWMDK3ABLhacwj7jyS7
 wMXv5VhaxNnQNySQo9Q26E2mggb9ypcTksUsdCKOmnadPUN3NQdLvxZjR7GUM7r5X9
 2J2ZOLMC1ksig==
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> writes:
> Perhaps adding -qe which would load early-init.el but not init.el
> loaded might do?  If -qe filename.el, it could load that file in place
> of early-init.el?

Yes, something like that would work for me.  Though I would only ever
use the "-qe filename.el" mode.  I'm not sure there's much of a use case
for "-qe" alone, and it might confuse users.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:30:03 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.17472221911523 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78304
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 78304-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B78304.17472221911523
          (code B ref 78304); Wed, 14 May 2025 11:30:03 +0000
Received: (at 78304) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 May 2025 11:29:51 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40670 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1uFAJ4-0000OQ-Jk
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 07:29:51 -0400
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53762)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uFAJ1-0000Ng-Mz
 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 07:29:48 -0400
Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e])
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1uFAIv-0002Nw-IS; Wed, 14 May 2025 07:29:41 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=P5GonJNDDdnQeFVPtHBKH0THuAQxAYUQZK50Os/bGik=; b=c92uJx5YnVPf
 DSHlXzPqbXSV4HsITu6k5KDq0TQodM30GinbOwxHk56KAVqDQlSEHcteZg0gHqUTdxQkwNmupHCpB
 1EbBGIBpkrTAVqFjaPthxgrVz3VcShXN1HcOY5JfoozcL51bP86OllzYk6Y77bT4WG0bKGkd7R1b1
 KVbRaS0gR3IYxM/jjxn9/QMAm6H26pzbEsjEprhXBNw7PTd+URJkM/Fb5tTKrx8oqMvRkfVRZ3IUp
 lxd3Bh0dxS1rgfeVRmpbo8X683jmYQBsYLD1EmSvbnl8mteEdVAIC3shH5Vnj7TIa8uW4ZhVrlYBB
 V9RW7HPgiQ5f6L8eQ3uu/Q==;
Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 14:29:39 +0300
Message-Id: <86wmajzazg.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <ier7c2kwfe7.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Spencer Baugh on
 Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400)
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <86zffnc4gj.fsf@HIDDEN> <ier7c2kwfe7.fsf@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > Why cannot you do whatever you need in the site-init file?
> 
> By that I assume you mean site-start.el, since AFAIK site-init.el is not
> loaded at runtime, only at dump time.
> 
> As (info "(elisp) Startup Summary") describes, site-start.el is loaded
> after package-activate-all is called and the initial frame is set up.
> It is therefore loaded too late to configure these things.

That's easy to overcome: set package-enable-at-startup to a nil value
in early-init.el, then call package-activate-all in site-start file.

Does this solve the problem?

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 15:38:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.174723702832759 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78304
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 78304-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B78304.174723702832759
          (code B ref 78304); Wed, 14 May 2025 15:38:02 +0000
Received: (at 78304) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 May 2025 15:37:08 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44465 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1uFEAN-0008WI-D6
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 11:37:07 -0400
Received: from mxout1.mail.janestreet.com ([38.105.200.78]:33145)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <sbaugh@HIDDEN>)
 id 1uFEAF-0008Vb-0F
 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 11:37:03 -0400
Received: from mail-ed1-f69.google.com ([209.85.208.69])
 by mxgoog2.mail.janestreet.com with esmtps (TLS1.3:TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128)
 (Exim 4.98.2) id 1uFEA9-00000009mXr-2ZY1 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org;
 Wed, 14 May 2025 11:36:53 -0400
Received: by mail-ed1-f69.google.com with SMTP id
 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5fe6fb68b2fso3486842a12.3
 for <78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 14 May 2025 08:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=janestreet.com; s=google; t=1747237012; x=1747841812; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; 
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
 bh=8Wv0DbSambGK7ygsWfZrkW4LGan3qVxun3O7gBdP6T4=;
 b=WUnLtAv+xos2lTtMOuQycI0Ltmbixtba+7JQZhiTK8O9xRlRTiUhhBvFcrPm/U7Hpi
 h6M9D8wzeBccIW+gTP+3mZlwvFV2MNugWJNmXSqWZEWWOaRKt96Ja0j+rRLHRjcJQi1l
 p0Gv3q5Y6FrMSSX+cKORgLcwr4N3Yo2R1EZ34=
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=janestreet.com;
 s=waixah; t=1747237013;
 bh=8Wv0DbSambGK7ygsWfZrkW4LGan3qVxun3O7gBdP6T4=;
 h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc;
 b=2OjA5vki5ZT1BRk15bcCN86bGnfqHyjLdI53OedPorOj4A5T0v+gZqmAR0mbzTAgA
 bhTjyDctuGsqoch84wKv0W2CVhjy7DTdZXyqe6lr3OsqrRQCwLJPI3LlL1kEJXdk0I
 7p0Af93BZ7ARn5bvmVzzcSa4wH96cNl0qdPZjZexjTADsCbmdyYEeJjdBaWPzP3lY8
 RHkVAx46JJihRBrBIkgRsySJBpxvd8pXOt5ygpQb8pAQQjZBJqqadoXvP0PtAh4qgP
 pCXnXZ02gh37U5mNKRQLL4NKB3IhhIDJVjb+wLFlwNpNfcj+UHqLYryZ3Y9jBxmzd3
 49QqX+VL8Rjhg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1747237012; x=1747841812;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
 :reply-to;
 bh=8Wv0DbSambGK7ygsWfZrkW4LGan3qVxun3O7gBdP6T4=;
 b=iMcfxeuCem9ruVwnKqsbmhxZehHlkpy5eWY0v0jX+yZ/+eL61/u2S+jbxR6eJocetP
 oHGEuuBuRG87TTSDR1stixLtkcC6Gmf5KEVsRrREwJ5HNQ8dn5HiYI16QtacbkuELHWD
 hpz+qJ1qx28Nr/JWf27j1i5VSXfs4lQV10e+bos+RWh9VrYsxq1j9TIqOucJc8FYAHbx
 KwH7dRr03bIoCJ5CNlDOqhB78jrP8ZXIhbwLX9s0753IBkx+i04hg8Z8zdgi1rMfOU51
 d3sgznxHeV1iI3unGW1jkVeRFeEMNBQ602RXOHQnjfUMFQuUq9dC1dF49ECga3tLsoCk
 IepA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyUywYyu1H7uN/kU2Bz1+M1cKSahFCjIn76kx5aOJcB5mX6Oq+Y
 ohKgWJuLaAbw2fDYvvo8Y48fUau5WBE1aB0x/idXumbTLrWgcy0kOcyWMBbfUNq8RQHmWVZRy1b
 CpDjNTle+N++OlqjKQQqKpDrigRr1YWo1v6tSqB7knD9k41SiuL8bxRsoM2XFmlCwhsrZnbvLUg
 KLFU2WlAa2DkP5OT5rrIGtnZGhOQ==
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvB2YE70yem8sLs/6GYmjb2WNriO+c36R2ULqExnARDihqRtaLye8Plf6wehbi
 AFqPfLKTAWLEIhq7kYSrq2wrF+c9In7DyXYybummubK6cfM3/RTP6usuSmcuMnPMALc8M
X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:728a:b0:ad1:e672:271f with SMTP id
 a640c23a62f3a-ad4f711730emr425434266b.18.1747237012303; 
 Wed, 14 May 2025 08:36:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEbBI648+waf4oqrONa7kSMRBHIimh4PjV6zfJ6yTaI1rlcdiqo90jx+Sri+VJ1L6EaBHdEvhSub2dpoROTaag=
X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:728a:b0:ad1:e672:271f with SMTP id
 a640c23a62f3a-ad4f711730emr425431566b.18.1747237011851; Wed, 14 May 2025
 08:36:51 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <86zffnc4gj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <ier7c2kwfe7.fsf@HIDDEN> <86wmajzazg.fsf@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <86wmajzazg.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:36:40 -0400
X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFsqp1g3NDwwBPEnNAMn9blqOKbIj4UGzwtpMWiA-cKDfyh5VuWKJ7rEBZg
Message-ID: <CAO=BR8Nmrs3ScKWphiZDiHLZs+v_X9gqNNd-5jmAC1gRE=NmsA@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e254006351a5152"
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

--0000000000006e254006351a5152
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, May 14, 2025, 7:29=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400
> >
> > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >
> > > Why cannot you do whatever you need in the site-init file?
> >
> > By that I assume you mean site-start.el, since AFAIK site-init.el is no=
t
> > loaded at runtime, only at dump time.
> >
> > As (info "(elisp) Startup Summary") describes, site-start.el is loaded
> > after package-activate-all is called and the initial frame is set up.
> > It is therefore loaded too late to configure these things.
>
> That's easy to overcome: set package-enable-at-startup to a nil value
> in early-init.el, then call package-activate-all in site-start file.
>
> Does this solve the problem?
>

No, because as I said above, there's no way to combine this solution with
-q.

>

--0000000000006e254006351a5152
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_contai=
ner"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, May 14, 2025, 7:29=E2=80=
=AFAM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">&gt; From: Spencer Baugh &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sbaugh@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer">sbaugh@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"=
noreferrer">78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a><br>
&gt; Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" re=
l=3D"noreferrer">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; writes:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Why cannot you do whatever you need in the site-init file?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; By that I assume you mean site-start.el, since AFAIK site-init.el is n=
ot<br>
&gt; loaded at runtime, only at dump time.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; As (info &quot;(elisp) Startup Summary&quot;) describes, site-start.el=
 is loaded<br>
&gt; after package-activate-all is called and the initial frame is set up.<=
br>
&gt; It is therefore loaded too late to configure these things.<br>
<br>
That&#39;s easy to overcome: set package-enable-at-startup to a nil value<b=
r>
in early-init.el, then call package-activate-all in site-start file.<br>
<br>
Does this solve the problem?<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">No, because as I said above, there&#39;s no way=
 to combine this solution with -q.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--0000000000006e254006351a5152--

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 16:27:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.17472400139486 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78304
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 78304-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B78304.17472400139486
          (code B ref 78304); Wed, 14 May 2025 16:27:02 +0000
Received: (at 78304) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 May 2025 16:26:53 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44638 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1uFEwX-0002Sw-7A
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 12:26:53 -0400
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59544)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uFEwU-0002Sg-Bn
 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 12:26:51 -0400
Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e])
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1uFEwN-0001SN-Iv; Wed, 14 May 2025 12:26:44 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:
 Date; bh=duPnlj6AxWWnU/UVf5BbZtjWJgav2vO+7jxNqPz4Chk=; b=DF95zYMjyHwNCEiT7HPW
 fqIXWXHlOI8KBZSWElGqDtK2PI6xzFRsYd5GZWnXwOGNXu4tQg1zswjTYvnibLOIrMjOZ6U3x5ZST
 i1Fr5m6MsP4t0VkPxvxRMf7ZnCmElS8G9yNUtvDD1Bqtj86XzTCs5Xf2SVHiurZnssHwsLYvOeuv/
 wPdTXZdh2oSvmCNu/m6ZAW73CtZPorcYtsLny5880jRL4f/yEARwdp6PYt8EDrsvJ5nzxThvLwNO5
 /4VceUZJ4h7UYp56q6gpC2vln7paRRIeenRkyyikCFNpUX16SpXzXLiHToglBzA5W3BUrPtvYwg1J
 YtbrYa6ZTp+I4g==;
Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 19:26:35 +0300
Message-Id: <86msbfyx8k.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <CAO=BR8Nmrs3ScKWphiZDiHLZs+v_X9gqNNd-5jmAC1gRE=NmsA@HIDDEN>
 (message from Spencer Baugh on Wed, 14 May 2025 11:36:40 -0400)
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <86zffnc4gj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <ier7c2kwfe7.fsf@HIDDEN> <86wmajzazg.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CAO=BR8Nmrs3ScKWphiZDiHLZs+v_X9gqNNd-5jmAC1gRE=NmsA@HIDDEN>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:36:40 -0400
> Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 7:29 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> 
>  > From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>  > Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>  > Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400
>  > 
>  > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>  > 
>  > > Why cannot you do whatever you need in the site-init file?
>  > 
>  > By that I assume you mean site-start.el, since AFAIK site-init.el is not
>  > loaded at runtime, only at dump time.
>  > 
>  > As (info "(elisp) Startup Summary") describes, site-start.el is loaded
>  > after package-activate-all is called and the initial frame is set up.
>  > It is therefore loaded too late to configure these things.
> 
>  That's easy to overcome: set package-enable-at-startup to a nil value
>  in early-init.el, then call package-activate-all in site-start file.
> 
>  Does this solve the problem?
> 
> No, because as I said above, there's no way to combine this solution with -q.

I don't understand why.  The -q switch doesn't disable loading
site-start file.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 17:08:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.174724245719422 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78304
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 78304-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B78304.174724245719422
          (code B ref 78304); Wed, 14 May 2025 17:08:01 +0000
Received: (at 78304) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 May 2025 17:07:37 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44812 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1uFFZw-00053C-FW
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 13:07:36 -0400
Received: from mxout1.mail.janestreet.com ([38.105.200.78]:58669)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <sbaugh@HIDDEN>)
 id 1uFFZu-00052w-40
 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 13:07:34 -0400
Received: from mail-ej1-f71.google.com ([209.85.218.71])
 by mxgoog2.mail.janestreet.com with esmtps (TLS1.3:TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128)
 (Exim 4.98.2) id 1uFFZo-00000009xXF-3Ju3 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org;
 Wed, 14 May 2025 13:07:28 -0400
Received: by mail-ej1-f71.google.com with SMTP id
 a640c23a62f3a-ad22aaa20f7so2397766b.3
 for <78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 14 May 2025 10:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=janestreet.com; s=google; t=1747242447; x=1747847247; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; 
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
 bh=nEQhV/WqSuufYylqdDe07GC+RUEI2Ov43HMszQVIXyk=;
 b=SzDtSxWmRat2Y4hfidSyyQnV91FZ5vTmXAI4G2FJUEgpBczUWXU5Rd0WYQ9b9WXAYq
 2KFU6UlsIsJa99w5uuGDwVkTvxl5hF3hz2LUU+6bwYjUykK2RdSVpAQaRu4dVoXQTJRX
 h3iUksNKRGn9X14qRdbDtE8cTRdno90cMzGO0=
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=janestreet.com;
 s=waixah; t=1747242448;
 bh=nEQhV/WqSuufYylqdDe07GC+RUEI2Ov43HMszQVIXyk=;
 h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc;
 b=x4UhwHGXFuNutWARs5fMyjmUS/7LQMqZR5CD1pO+lFcaC0C5SNVBbpJ4Icy3wuEN7
 s0Opm10vjOJCeDPFNOaDv82rvDWOdMA+dWJi81pjWjFRJg11QJ0p2F+ETgnTTXsipK
 hj8TeOtNZhGkyM7LcD6ziqx3hupxXsyeRaN5i37FHKargE3QSolrhGZVkg5dt9Mz/2
 jW/02Ku8+xa6BWQxslJ6+7MbDJvVUdWd70wInlraYZQPyKUSglwtZHfAzrp8oDKRxD
 73Qj352duDP50/3MC7ZYBU19LH8jQDKEoR6XQdkVGPOOrrbhqxBOsTGCC+4OgTOP+D
 4OPUNA9hs/0rw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1747242447; x=1747847247;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
 :reply-to;
 bh=nEQhV/WqSuufYylqdDe07GC+RUEI2Ov43HMszQVIXyk=;
 b=iGViyGJj/8+AB2ci58lDRzymTrnWUbARUcxQLhxahhOpF0F2BMp3HWaZZYZYjObR8N
 xlb1rit+H6B+hYSTF0JTQxYmktua6jPgpIO2JdBAbj6TIm3c/C1OKFzS8tTksfJyJdVo
 YVSQ9VuCedMyDuO8LGhLQLtJnWfvFyRaE9A7+/roLd6XkDgmSQc83Bi5t9aPmIaBdItj
 PYMCutyW+LOFU9wmghmMhmQGnwHu3TpgmkZKVmgtlS5zD5QgcldnpfLeSRIQDWafWgCe
 pwQ5TP9YWyNhq3PJLO7QJD4gFs9z76A2VgGi2UXsPOEdRk4OOMlt8d5k7sBcIIk6VlEn
 r10Q==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw2sD28UcYcvEKGbHyFqqlxT9byq/SoGbkUSy+0zwOIxl79a6V4
 Br1hz3QunRPiIceJY58isfNdO28ddG0/2NxIJ8YkYKVy40/InGbXJRq9t4wmGey3LftRZFnZY8e
 91FOkHcIwWGkYQzPlI+IXZCmFasRwITmWoCnq9B5EaSEfcW0f8YuJsQaEMGCe8NIjNvbHTINmOd
 +PSKuwKs1rgRhHHW5gfKrOJuqluQ==
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnct4CFgn9Z7zSA3g84Juj/HRr9EamXCCcARPP9KBkkiBLr61VEkrLz4Wr99C1I+
 PD1db3X5RCnQsNgwY3j6X9PCTwczCt6ermvnqTkM1Tm+XgXVwQ1EzhScG2rmVWh4tvMSO
X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:9488:b0:ad4:e065:9403 with SMTP id
 a640c23a62f3a-ad4f7178e95mr463823666b.28.1747242447397; 
 Wed, 14 May 2025 10:07:27 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH9SR3YBkG3FY4bM6Ehbz3DtCDE3O0G0CijoqPogsF5PuxRbiIPDPJXI7rb70OXM2qxBeU1n3osNKBFt+XRybQ=
X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:9488:b0:ad4:e065:9403 with SMTP id
 a640c23a62f3a-ad4f7178e95mr463818166b.28.1747242446865; Wed, 14 May 2025
 10:07:26 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <86zffnc4gj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <ier7c2kwfe7.fsf@HIDDEN> <86wmajzazg.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CAO=BR8Nmrs3ScKWphiZDiHLZs+v_X9gqNNd-5jmAC1gRE=NmsA@HIDDEN>
 <86msbfyx8k.fsf@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <86msbfyx8k.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 13:07:16 -0400
X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFsde5RtkbInO4V5z9yITHO6V0U4K0nH_veReXPF6KuntZ-R25LPcuWx5zk
Message-ID: <CAO=BR8Nfmcsjn0eTQev+9ssmWoQDDAn+g_6-zO1J=uAJDLsQjw@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000061e17806351b95ac"
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

--00000000000061e17806351b95ac
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, May 14, 2025, 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:36:40 -0400
> > Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > On Wed, May 14, 2025, 7:29=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrot=
e:
> >
> >  > From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >  > Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >  > Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400
> >  >
> >  > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >  >
> >  > > Why cannot you do whatever you need in the site-init file?
> >  >
> >  > By that I assume you mean site-start.el, since AFAIK site-init.el is
> not
> >  > loaded at runtime, only at dump time.
> >  >
> >  > As (info "(elisp) Startup Summary") describes, site-start.el is load=
ed
> >  > after package-activate-all is called and the initial frame is set up=
.
> >  > It is therefore loaded too late to configure these things.
> >
> >  That's easy to overcome: set package-enable-at-startup to a nil value
> >  in early-init.el, then call package-activate-all in site-start file.
> >
> >  Does this solve the problem?
> >
> > No, because as I said above, there's no way to combine this solution
> with -q.
>
> I don't understand why.  The -q switch doesn't disable loading
> site-start file.
>

It disables loading early-init.el.

>

--00000000000061e17806351b95ac
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_contai=
ner"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, May 14, 2025, 12:26=E2=
=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">&gt; From: Spencer Baug=
h &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sbaugh@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer">sbaugh@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:36:40 -0400<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"=
noreferrer">78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Wed, May 14, 2025, 7:29=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; From: Spencer Baugh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sbaugh@janestreet=
.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">sbaugh@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk" rel=3D"noreferrer">78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D=
"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; writes:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; &gt; Why cannot you do whatever you need in the site-init f=
ile?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; By that I assume you mean site-start.el, since AFAIK site-i=
nit.el is not<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; loaded at runtime, only at dump time.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; As (info &quot;(elisp) Startup Summary&quot;) describes, si=
te-start.el is loaded<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; after package-activate-all is called and the initial frame =
is set up.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; It is therefore loaded too late to configure these things.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 That&#39;s easy to overcome: set package-enable-at-startup to a =
nil value<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 in early-init.el, then call package-activate-all in site-start f=
ile.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 Does this solve the problem?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; No, because as I said above, there&#39;s no way to combine this soluti=
on with -q.<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t understand why.=C2=A0 The -q switch doesn&#39;t disable loading=
<br>
site-start file.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">It disables loading early-init.el.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--00000000000061e17806351b95ac--

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 17:36:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.17472441243630 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78304
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 78304-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B78304.17472441243630
          (code B ref 78304); Wed, 14 May 2025 17:36:01 +0000
Received: (at 78304) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 May 2025 17:35:24 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44894 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1uFG0p-0000wU-DU
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 13:35:23 -0400
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36020)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uFG0m-0000wD-BA
 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 13:35:20 -0400
Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e])
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1uFG0g-0003M3-K6; Wed, 14 May 2025 13:35:14 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:
 Date; bh=vYWrxgcRFsoEzzuXJaTyoFAei/3aHKPqw2WsC66qnBM=; b=ha3YQk/FtHLOuujYstOu
 RH7zi9Y3XQheq8TVljztWEocPJowQcrsGvZExcVUZwxr+UCHlWvUCAW8tnGCFHfujwpdv888OWELB
 4JNU4e8mpVoUCC+ljHXMXczyn+ufmuOTBaqlEBiEtIYKD0kkPCMutAJ/zI34PR3G8+lKMOoK0tDY+
 kZt3iF4R/VVGwVnXpPUwPXsKs5WC5VJmtJqJnEYcGzrFatMwJokr4xKreY5Ixdnjf3kRGLucgmHeY
 k+FV7uw3Dy8w6Vb33Db5WZ1pyTaNuwxjql21HEsh9Zt1aYiQb6rWXwnNa+oo9/4ggQswKFnaeFKlr
 NgnBN/XQKdKj0g==;
Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 20:35:12 +0300
Message-Id: <86ldqzyu27.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <CAO=BR8Nfmcsjn0eTQev+9ssmWoQDDAn+g_6-zO1J=uAJDLsQjw@HIDDEN>
 (message from Spencer Baugh on Wed, 14 May 2025 13:07:16 -0400)
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <86zffnc4gj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <ier7c2kwfe7.fsf@HIDDEN> <86wmajzazg.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CAO=BR8Nmrs3ScKWphiZDiHLZs+v_X9gqNNd-5jmAC1gRE=NmsA@HIDDEN>
 <86msbfyx8k.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CAO=BR8Nfmcsjn0eTQev+9ssmWoQDDAn+g_6-zO1J=uAJDLsQjw@HIDDEN>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 13:07:16 -0400
> Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 12:26 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> 
>  > From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>  > Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:36:40 -0400
>  > Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>  > 
>  > On Wed, May 14, 2025, 7:29 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>  > 
>  >  > From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>  >  > Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>  >  > Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400
>  >  > 
>  >  > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>  >  > 
>  >  > > Why cannot you do whatever you need in the site-init file?
>  >  > 
>  >  > By that I assume you mean site-start.el, since AFAIK site-init.el is not
>  >  > loaded at runtime, only at dump time.
>  >  > 
>  >  > As (info "(elisp) Startup Summary") describes, site-start.el is loaded
>  >  > after package-activate-all is called and the initial frame is set up.
>  >  > It is therefore loaded too late to configure these things.
>  > 
>  >  That's easy to overcome: set package-enable-at-startup to a nil value
>  >  in early-init.el, then call package-activate-all in site-start file.
>  > 
>  >  Does this solve the problem?
>  > 
>  > No, because as I said above, there's no way to combine this solution with -q.
> 
>  I don't understand why.  The -q switch doesn't disable loading
>  site-start file.
> 
> It disables loading early-init.el.

And why is that a problem in this case?

IOW, you seem to be describing several different situations, but each
one of them might need a slightly different solution.  E.g., you never
explained why you want to do whatever you need to do in "emacs -q".

Given all these undisclosed details and rationales, it is hard to have
a useful and efficient discussion.  I almost feel like the rules of
the game change with each new message, and no matter what I suggest,
it will be rejected because the target keeps moving.  Just look back
at the discussion history:

 . you said you want something done under -q, so I suggested
   site-start
 . you then bring up package initialization, which was never
   mentioned before
 . I suggest to delay package initialization, but then it turns out
   you want to load early-init, and now I don't understand why you
   mentioned -q in the first place

So now I'm completely confused regarding what are you trying to solve
and why.  May I suggest to describe the problem(s) in more detail?

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 17:57:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.17472453837814 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78304
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 78304-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B78304.17472453837814
          (code B ref 78304); Wed, 14 May 2025 17:57:02 +0000
Received: (at 78304) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 May 2025 17:56:23 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45040 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1uFGL9-00021r-5t
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 13:56:23 -0400
Received: from mxout5.mail.janestreet.com ([64.215.233.18]:53515)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <sbaugh@HIDDEN>)
 id 1uFGL0-0001zy-AA
 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 13:56:14 -0400
From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <86ldqzyu27.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 14 May
 2025 20:35:12 +0300")
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <86zffnc4gj.fsf@HIDDEN> <ier7c2kwfe7.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <86wmajzazg.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CAO=BR8Nmrs3ScKWphiZDiHLZs+v_X9gqNNd-5jmAC1gRE=NmsA@HIDDEN>
 <86msbfyx8k.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CAO=BR8Nfmcsjn0eTQev+9ssmWoQDDAn+g_6-zO1J=uAJDLsQjw@HIDDEN>
 <86ldqzyu27.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 13:56:08 -0400
Message-ID: <ierzfffuldz.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=janestreet.com;
 s=waixah; t=1747245369;
 bh=R8y7O6EIACQGj7IxYgsweHHYCefe4eIfprTunHiz9pE=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date;
 b=ayQ6SvM0ujMIcvRw7eaMF1AB74Y2CIWyfP+kZWyubPXYV+FENzqm01B3/ZQg80J0a
 oINkEXH4cqndS3WEbizSGT39vAelcyuafjgNEPoaEBFy5ttAJb/vXoxCkXrvG1vwJO
 sQ/yg7jWdCBVwBtUwKiWTYtft5BAaNmwRS2njtiNgi+QJRtdlaL9ncmEmkMtd2+CNt
 HKwhwM2wWWfK2Jn5J4PLJUFbzWTLPI7yz/e8Z+TWU8Soumoh9RhggBXyTWSHTN/as7
 JOD8ldtGm9VR9+exb/YenlfJSb8IFPee+XyVm5iBE7jKgaMrtUT045Y9T9JmTFsKIt
 G/KjqgXTqXHdA==
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 13:07:16 -0400
>> Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>=20
>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrot=
e:
>>=20
>>  > From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>>  > Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:36:40 -0400
>>  > Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>  >=20
>>  > On Wed, May 14, 2025, 7:29=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:
>>  >=20
>>  >  > From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
>>  >  > Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>  >  > Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400
>>  >  >=20
>>  >  > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>>  >  >=20
>>  >  > > Why cannot you do whatever you need in the site-init file?
>>  >  >=20
>>  >  > By that I assume you mean site-start.el, since AFAIK site-init.el =
is not
>>  >  > loaded at runtime, only at dump time.
>>  >  >=20
>>  >  > As (info "(elisp) Startup Summary") describes, site-start.el is lo=
aded
>>  >  > after package-activate-all is called and the initial frame is set =
up.
>>  >  > It is therefore loaded too late to configure these things.
>>  >=20
>>  >  That's easy to overcome: set package-enable-at-startup to a nil value
>>  >  in early-init.el, then call package-activate-all in site-start file.
>>  >=20
>>  >  Does this solve the problem?
>>  >=20
>>  > No, because as I said above, there's no way to combine this solution =
with -q.
>>=20
>>  I don't understand why.  The -q switch doesn't disable loading
>>  site-start file.
>>=20
>> It disables loading early-init.el.
>
> And why is that a problem in this case?
>
> IOW, you seem to be describing several different situations, but each
> one of them might need a slightly different solution.  E.g., you never
> explained why you want to do whatever you need to do in "emacs -q".
>
> Given all these undisclosed details and rationales, it is hard to have
> a useful and efficient discussion.  I almost feel like the rules of
> the game change with each new message, and no matter what I suggest,
> it will be rejected because the target keeps moving.  Just look back
> at the discussion history:
>
>  . you said you want something done under -q, so I suggested
>    site-start
>  . you then bring up package initialization, which was never
>    mentioned before
>  . I suggest to delay package initialization, but then it turns out
>    you want to load early-init, and now I don't understand why you
>    mentioned -q in the first place
>
> So now I'm completely confused regarding what are you trying to solve
> and why.  May I suggest to describe the problem(s) in more detail?

My apologies.  To clarify:

- I want to run with -q for the usual reasons of ignoring the user's
  early-init.el and init.el.

- While running with -q, I want to do things which can only be done with
  early-init.el, like configuring package initialization,
  load-path-filter-function, or the initial frame parameters.

More simply the problem is:

- I don't want to load the user's early-init.el

- But there are certain things which can only be done via early-init.el

How about this variation on your idea: what if we added a
site-early-start.el which is loaded just before early-init.el, mirroring
how site-start.el is loaded just before init.el?  That would be really
useful for my site in general, for more than just this issue, because it
would allow new kinds of site-wide configuration that is currently
impossible.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#78304: 31.0.50; Support --early-eval on the command line
Resent-From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 18:01:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.78304.B78304.17472456538938 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78304
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 78304-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B78304.17472456538938
          (code B ref 78304); Wed, 14 May 2025 18:01:01 +0000
Received: (at 78304) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 May 2025 18:00:53 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45086 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1uFGPV-0002K5-0W
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 14:00:53 -0400
Received: from mail-ua1-x930.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::930]:48637)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128)
 (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <shipmints@HIDDEN>)
 id 1uFGPS-0002Jk-3s
 for 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 May 2025 14:00:51 -0400
Received: by mail-ua1-x930.google.com with SMTP id
 a1e0cc1a2514c-87bd83c63f3so8476241.1
 for <78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 14 May 2025 11:00:50 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1747245644; x=1747850444; darn=debbugs.gnu.org;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
 bh=0Uyi0+GTwagDYayRWzsPtMLCGbS/Y8Eg0/saYesauww=;
 b=Ot+sgF6QNIJ2a8jdA5Z/T5fuiwPquzTiTvF1OYhXYcNo3BJYwXDtpyP3Q/hIWo82Rg
 WvSFeazp2PracIEHaaFIqgvDPxRKmhNEsngofs3QCVg7DWFUq8JxmnGkVSdE48Lj1IVZ
 SJwo22ujvA50mdBOlow9+KqDpzV/t/4yTznqKGwydvfz1d4xP3k7k6iv96ztIKsniO4k
 ioItZuuH0qnM1cDY/wLM12k7x6e0heJjbJgL1cfq0ZbtCtzIAQpvfY8WshqY3jeHl7TL
 8udBaX5SVCvmlZdg2Jh61gLqe0eAKJAem4ZoiCy2rv9VdeqYoMGGjvNXy5sQRgr71jX8
 wVHQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1747245644; x=1747850444;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
 :reply-to;
 bh=0Uyi0+GTwagDYayRWzsPtMLCGbS/Y8Eg0/saYesauww=;
 b=O8C7VLwnu4j37vNjqmi8TxoF6hK0CpSMn2vSuRdxSqaEjEf3mRsEY2/PEmV2qG7Wt6
 mh/3kMDwrlphkfhR6mlBB9NJcx9FKT2+pJXrZshTcADOfkMjWJ2oFPulBvHt+/obZdcf
 bSZ07CP2xm07IuAqRPoLuCE4wTlIWDo3o+P++0eOmkueZdTbEg/MrgLlMKVqyneKThla
 v6QB9GeacASzujeXj+sFyUvjyVkxVI3Kh94c1/uV2uzZDsfzIHPz1d6FGuUM0Sv4+/w1
 sIrmAp9HjIGvI6Sdlqc3aA6GwCkZf8OO8i5N/IydlwGdX7b+NXGuk0p2/g0FoBNpJtfn
 7DNQ==
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1;
 AJvYcCWPwOVFYwVUbs26iJftiCPiDMn0ExRv3fSpQP6x5+T9Hz9+bgIDNnMAeBmxOQN91Az9T8dT8A==@debbugs.gnu.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YygcpLpNVKj8kxtqoDhPWJLXyj5NlEDaIXQeRElAeHe3jnPQSHI
 WOI8SORfWUy1/jScxSXqRvMN/bwrCKSi+uSQYkbs7a1GIL26pLhD9VuCpqoGwmxxYprtGPOxh8V
 Byo4TcXdelPX7Sfn7GZaW8kh6ipdhXA==
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnct/AIGhytQ7XqGB1o3hPIoW90Kl05Bz9RGPY8PZ4bZ+UQsGn3ouUzrmafjOkS9
 UaBkd8WRidYBX1TDyX47TYKCgPl/fPmv0aJKBzxZJ1aMZysTs3yraOBO+T2uCxCd9b1mXN15lvu
 IYpFc7ox/izxWMsRNzv7qvQvBTTPgQ3Dxq
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHiDyNOPCiJYRktacvNEPdX7LiT3YBsGKDCRwu05aXQp/fNwqDPO1vfiFEEeKLbSRnpEY3nyL/WDUJ+lexSFrs=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:4b18:b0:4cb:5d6c:9943 with SMTP id
 ada2fe7eead31-4df7dce7ef5mr4539219137.12.1747245643968; Wed, 14 May 2025
 11:00:43 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <ierv7qc85qu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixvfz8c.fsf@HIDDEN> <iero6w3yspb.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <86zffnc4gj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <ier7c2kwfe7.fsf@HIDDEN> <86wmajzazg.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CAO=BR8Nmrs3ScKWphiZDiHLZs+v_X9gqNNd-5jmAC1gRE=NmsA@HIDDEN>
 <86msbfyx8k.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <CAO=BR8Nfmcsjn0eTQev+9ssmWoQDDAn+g_6-zO1J=uAJDLsQjw@HIDDEN>
 <86ldqzyu27.fsf@HIDDEN> <ierzfffuldz.fsf@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <ierzfffuldz.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 14:00:32 -0400
X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFv0BlY9g7MiaBSgqN3CZRNFIE1mbGfr16LkjsBXtDrN2So8V1JOZDzi59k
Message-ID: <CAN+1HbqGcw3vLwC+3F-_Xut7Fx0irjUs74mFQvryOHpNjssLeQ@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f1b94106351c53af"
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

--000000000000f1b94106351c53af
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 1:57=E2=80=AFPM Spencer Baugh via Bug reports for G=
NU
Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> wrote:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> >> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >> Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 13:07:16 -0400
> >> Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:
> >>
> >>  > From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >>  > Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:36:40 -0400
> >>  > Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >>  >
> >>  > On Wed, May 14, 2025, 7:29=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> =
wrote:
> >>  >
> >>  >  > From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh@HIDDEN>
> >>  >  > Cc: 78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >>  >  > Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400
> >>  >  >
> >>  >  > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >>  >  >
> >>  >  > > Why cannot you do whatever you need in the site-init file?
> >>  >  >
> >>  >  > By that I assume you mean site-start.el, since AFAIK site-init.e=
l
> is not
> >>  >  > loaded at runtime, only at dump time.
> >>  >  >
> >>  >  > As (info "(elisp) Startup Summary") describes, site-start.el is
> loaded
> >>  >  > after package-activate-all is called and the initial frame is se=
t
> up.
> >>  >  > It is therefore loaded too late to configure these things.
> >>  >
> >>  >  That's easy to overcome: set package-enable-at-startup to a nil
> value
> >>  >  in early-init.el, then call package-activate-all in site-start fil=
e.
> >>  >
> >>  >  Does this solve the problem?
> >>  >
> >>  > No, because as I said above, there's no way to combine this solutio=
n
> with -q.
> >>
> >>  I don't understand why.  The -q switch doesn't disable loading
> >>  site-start file.
> >>
> >> It disables loading early-init.el.
> >
> > And why is that a problem in this case?
> >
> > IOW, you seem to be describing several different situations, but each
> > one of them might need a slightly different solution.  E.g., you never
> > explained why you want to do whatever you need to do in "emacs -q".
> >
> > Given all these undisclosed details and rationales, it is hard to have
> > a useful and efficient discussion.  I almost feel like the rules of
> > the game change with each new message, and no matter what I suggest,
> > it will be rejected because the target keeps moving.  Just look back
> > at the discussion history:
> >
> >  . you said you want something done under -q, so I suggested
> >    site-start
> >  . you then bring up package initialization, which was never
> >    mentioned before
> >  . I suggest to delay package initialization, but then it turns out
> >    you want to load early-init, and now I don't understand why you
> >    mentioned -q in the first place
> >
> > So now I'm completely confused regarding what are you trying to solve
> > and why.  May I suggest to describe the problem(s) in more detail?
>
> My apologies.  To clarify:
>
> - I want to run with -q for the usual reasons of ignoring the user's
>   early-init.el and init.el.
>
> - While running with -q, I want to do things which can only be done with
>   early-init.el, like configuring package initialization,
>   load-path-filter-function, or the initial frame parameters.
>
> More simply the problem is:
>
> - I don't want to load the user's early-init.el
>
> - But there are certain things which can only be done via early-init.el
>
> How about this variation on your idea: what if we added a
> site-early-start.el which is loaded just before early-init.el, mirroring
> how site-start.el is loaded just before init.el?  That would be really
> useful for my site in general, for more than just this issue, because it
> would allow new kinds of site-wide configuration that is currently
> impossible.
>

That's good.  Wouldn't you want both that and a command-line option like
-qe so that you can do this via the command line to aid testing and also
provide Emacs programs that don't rely on site-early-init.el?

--000000000000f1b94106351c53af
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 1:57=E2=80=AFPM Spencer Baugh via Bug reports for G=
NU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bug-gn=
u-emacs@HIDDEN">bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" targ=
et=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Spencer Baugh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sbaugh@HIDDEN" t=
arget=3D"_blank">sbaugh@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 13:07:16 -0400<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank">783=
04 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, May 14, 2025, 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; From: Spencer Baugh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sbaugh@janest=
reet.com" target=3D"_blank">sbaugh@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:36:40 -0400<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"=
_blank">78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; On Wed, May 14, 2025, 7:29=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; From: Spencer Baugh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sb=
augh@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">sbaugh@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">78304 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 14:10:24 -0400<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@gnu=
.org" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; writes:<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; &gt; Why cannot you do whatever you need in =
the site-init file?<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; By that I assume you mean site-start.el, sin=
ce AFAIK site-init.el is not<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; loaded at runtime, only at dump time.<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; As (info &quot;(elisp) Startup Summary&quot;=
) describes, site-start.el is loaded<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; after package-activate-all is called and the=
 initial frame is set up.<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 &gt; It is therefore loaded too late to configure=
 these things.<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 That&#39;s easy to overcome: set package-enable-a=
t-startup to a nil value<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 in early-init.el, then call package-activate-all =
in site-start file.<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 Does this solve the problem?<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 &gt; No, because as I said above, there&#39;s no way to comb=
ine this solution with -q.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 I don&#39;t understand why.=C2=A0 The -q switch doesn&#39;t =
disable loading<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 site-start file.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; It disables loading early-init.el.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; And why is that a problem in this case?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; IOW, you seem to be describing several different situations, but each<=
br>
&gt; one of them might need a slightly different solution.=C2=A0 E.g., you =
never<br>
&gt; explained why you want to do whatever you need to do in &quot;emacs -q=
&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Given all these undisclosed details and rationales, it is hard to have=
<br>
&gt; a useful and efficient discussion.=C2=A0 I almost feel like the rules =
of<br>
&gt; the game change with each new message, and no matter what I suggest,<b=
r>
&gt; it will be rejected because the target keeps moving.=C2=A0 Just look b=
ack<br>
&gt; at the discussion history:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 . you said you want something done under -q, so I suggested<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 site-start<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 . you then bring up package initialization, which was never<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mentioned before<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 . I suggest to delay package initialization, but then it turns o=
ut<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 you want to load early-init, and now I don&#39;t understa=
nd why you<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mentioned -q in the first place<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So now I&#39;m completely confused regarding what are you trying to so=
lve<br>
&gt; and why.=C2=A0 May I suggest to describe the problem(s) in more detail=
?<br>
<br>
My apologies.=C2=A0 To clarify:<br>
<br>
- I want to run with -q for the usual reasons of ignoring the user&#39;s<br=
>
=C2=A0 early-init.el and init.el.<br>
<br>
- While running with -q, I want to do things which can only be done with<br=
>
=C2=A0 early-init.el, like configuring package initialization,<br>
=C2=A0 load-path-filter-function, or the initial frame parameters.<br>
<br>
More simply the problem is:<br>
<br>
- I don&#39;t want to load the user&#39;s early-init.el<br>
<br>
- But there are certain things which can only be done via early-init.el<br>
<br>
How about this variation on your idea: what if we added a<br>
site-early-start.el which is loaded just before early-init.el, mirroring<br=
>
how site-start.el is loaded just before init.el?=C2=A0 That would be really=
<br>
useful for my site in general, for more than just this issue, because it<br=
>
would allow new kinds of site-wide configuration that is currently<br>
impossible.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:monospace">That&#39;s good.=C2=A0 Wouldn&#39;t you want b=
oth that and a command-line option like -qe so that you can do this via the=
 command line to aid testing and also provide Emacs programs that don&#39;t=
 rely on site-early-init.el?</div></div></div>

--000000000000f1b94106351c53af--

Last modified: Wed, 14 May 2025 18:15:02 UTC

GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.