Received: (at 78340) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2025 13:53:14 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 12 09:53:14 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51621 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1uETak-0006RR-6B for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2025 09:53:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35988) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uETah-0006R6-1u for 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2025 09:53:11 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uETab-00031t-Mz; Mon, 12 May 2025 09:53:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=gIWOeya0AWbBqs9thlCcNXuJ9bbFDFRL+Ox6OTkW2Ow=; b=SWkNCRJ/Jm1f yaltbR+fUhlv4zvmc/JyramgBTceO6oQtedVUsOQWvCWB6WJKmQJD31P9VK7t6mXr7SMbwRHClg4x uoMLMwllMLNRrFCVc9On+33YEA/jQvk+Zzr7N/l9qfvCKxCuyhVnslNmRpznoHynBIfy9HrkrOYZQ V0+zEtaCSGXeYQEHyLY7wvMsRIkDYhTFbAgbl2A3KKXl88d+hjtH18bfQztP8+rXS+FUX6nvrM/ZJ ANmsIU51ktbbnOgLC4YFdjZfwCMTfCu1DRUgMfUJXmdjO2Hbs6ef2hb0I0hilPUEesseKnW5m+WT/ 8ujcM2+jz8XVZnCxdZcMSg==; Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 16:53:01 +0300 Message-Id: <86h61q6ima.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAM=F=bDKNW42YEE5GgqqYh5QjnBMLOhjwYHoOK1ijQFMt2JkFA@HIDDEN> (message from Lynn Winebarger on Mon, 12 May 2025 09:42:06 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#78340: [PATCH] New option for comp *.eln file name by the file timestamp of *.el References: <TYCPR01MB10004CCA1C51688FA14DF0167FB8AA@HIDDEN> <864ixtc5gw.fsf@HIDDEN> <yp1zffi5g7b.fsf@HIDDEN> <86plge6o0z.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM=F=bAsPT_+EVW-TmSRjfrp4vM9d4_0SVgmL5753xAwR7L5Fg@HIDDEN> <86o6vy6n4u.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM=F=bCVja0MSVo5QS7Y4v4V-Gpu3zJ8j0wi26WgQ+BVHzR76A@HIDDEN> <86jz6m6jjr.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM=F=bDKNW42YEE5GgqqYh5QjnBMLOhjwYHoOK1ijQFMt2JkFA@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78340 Cc: sunlin7@HIDDEN, acorallo@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN> > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 09:42:06 -0400 > Cc: acorallo@HIDDEN, sunlin7@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > I don't really follow the logic on why the content hash of the current > source is required to keep emacs from *crashing*, as opposed to just > being inconsistent with the current source. How else can you make sure the native code is safe to run? E.g., what if the code calls primitives that don't exist in Emacs, or their signature is different? > That state of affairs has always been considered acceptable for byte > compiled libraries. It was a requirement to prevent crashing a session due to loading incompatible native code, because loading byte-code doesn't crash. > So, instead of checking file times, why not just put the content hash > in the .elc, and if loading the elc would be acceptable (determined by > file times), then use the value from the elc file (stored in the > comment block at the start so the Fread procedure is not required). I don't see how the time stamp of the .elc file is more reliable than of the .el file.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78340 Cc: sunlin7@HIDDEN, acorallo@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:42=E2=80=AFAM Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN= > wrote: > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:33=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrot= e: > > > > > From: Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN> > > > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 09:07:06 -0400 > > > Cc: acorallo@HIDDEN, sunlin7@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 8:16=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> = wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN> > > > > > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 08:02:56 -0400 > > > > > Cc: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>, sunlin7@HIDDEN, 78340= @debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > > > > > > If he has that many packages, his load path has hundreds of entri= es, and any preloaded library will look in > > > > > every one before finding it in the last entry ... > > > > > > > > Maybe so, but that's a separate problem. The patch submitted in th= is > > > > bug was to shortcut the hashing of the source *.el files, not to av= oid > > > > searching the extra directories. > > > > > > > > If the number of directories is the issue, then my suggestion is no= t > > > > to compile packages AOT, which AFAIU will cause all the *.eln files= to > > > > be written to a single subdirectory of the eln-cache (after > > > > compiling them the first time each one is loaded). But that is a > > > > separate issue which IMO should be discussed with Stefan and Philip= , > > > > because it's related to how third-party packages are installed and > > > > compiled. > > > > > > It's not the AOT that's the issue, it's the search for the source fil= e > > > to compute the content hash. > > > > Then the time I measured includes that, for the preloaded packages. > > That's true - he's only seeing a 20% speedup. > > I don't really follow the logic on why the content hash of the current > source is required to keep emacs from *crashing*, as opposed to just > being inconsistent with the current source. That state of affairs has > always been considered acceptable for byte compiled libraries. > So, instead of checking file times, why not just put the content hash > in the .elc, and if loading the elc would be acceptable (determined by > file times), then use the value from the elc file (stored in the > comment block at the start so the Fread procedure is not required). Or, for system-installed libraries, treat them like doc strings and store them in a file in the etc subdirectory? Those are not mutually exclusive. The first would apply to all .elns, while the second would skip the whole locate-file procedure for system libraries (if the eln is in the system directory as well). Lynn
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78340 Cc: sunlin7@HIDDEN, acorallo@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:33=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > From: Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN> > > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 09:07:06 -0400 > > Cc: acorallo@HIDDEN, sunlin7@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 8:16=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wr= ote: > > > > > > > From: Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN> > > > > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 08:02:56 -0400 > > > > Cc: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>, sunlin7@HIDDEN, 78340@d= ebbugs.gnu.org > > > > > > > > If he has that many packages, his load path has hundreds of entries= , and any preloaded library will look in > > > > every one before finding it in the last entry ... > > > > > > Maybe so, but that's a separate problem. The patch submitted in this > > > bug was to shortcut the hashing of the source *.el files, not to avoi= d > > > searching the extra directories. > > > > > > If the number of directories is the issue, then my suggestion is not > > > to compile packages AOT, which AFAIU will cause all the *.eln files t= o > > > be written to a single subdirectory of the eln-cache (after > > > compiling them the first time each one is loaded). But that is a > > > separate issue which IMO should be discussed with Stefan and Philip, > > > because it's related to how third-party packages are installed and > > > compiled. > > > > It's not the AOT that's the issue, it's the search for the source file > > to compute the content hash. > > Then the time I measured includes that, for the preloaded packages. That's true - he's only seeing a 20% speedup. I don't really follow the logic on why the content hash of the current source is required to keep emacs from *crashing*, as opposed to just being inconsistent with the current source. That state of affairs has always been considered acceptable for byte compiled libraries. So, instead of checking file times, why not just put the content hash in the .elc, and if loading the elc would be acceptable (determined by file times), then use the value from the elc file (stored in the comment block at the start so the Fread procedure is not required). Lynn
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
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boundary="000000000000f75a2c0634f0254b" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78340 Cc: sunlin7@HIDDEN, acorallo@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000f75a2c0634f0254b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 12, 2025, 9:07=E2=80=AFAM Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN> = wrote: > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 8:16=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrot= e: > > > > > From: Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN> > > > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 08:02:56 -0400 > > > Cc: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>, sunlin7@HIDDEN, > 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > > If he has that many packages, his load path has hundreds of entries, > and any preloaded library will look in > > > every one before finding it in the last entry ... > > > > Maybe so, but that's a separate problem. The patch submitted in this > > bug was to shortcut the hashing of the source *.el files, not to avoid > > searching the extra directories. > > > > If the number of directories is the issue, then my suggestion is not > > to compile packages AOT, which AFAIU will cause all the *.eln files to > > be written to a single subdirectory of the eln-cache (after > > compiling them the first time each one is loaded). But that is a > > separate issue which IMO should be discussed with Stefan and Philip, > > because it's related to how third-party packages are installed and > > compiled. > > It's not the AOT that's the issue, it's the search for the source file > to compute the content hash. But otherwise, you're right, it's a > general issue with package management. > That being said, a profile of the startup (without the patch) would be the best way to tell where the issue is. Probably should have led with that. Lynn --000000000000f75a2c0634f0254b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div><p dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, May 12, 2025, 9:07=E2=80=AFAM= Lynn Winebarger <<a href=3D"mailto:owinebar@HIDDEN">owinebar@HIDDEN= om</a>> wrote:</p><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><bloc= kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:= 1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 8:16= =E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_bl= ank" rel=3D"noreferrer">eliz@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > > From: Lynn Winebarger <<a href=3D"mailto:owinebar@HIDDEN" t= arget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">owinebar@HIDDEN</a>><br> > > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 08:02:56 -0400<br> > > Cc: Andrea Corallo <<a href=3D"mailto:acorallo@HIDDEN" target= =3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">acorallo@HIDDEN</a>>, <a href=3D"mailto:= sunlin7@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">sunlin7@HIDDEN= om</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"n= oreferrer">78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a><br> > ><br> > > If he has that many packages, his load path has hundreds of entri= es, and any preloaded library will look in<br> > > every one before finding it in the last entry ...<br> ><br> > Maybe so, but that's a separate problem.=C2=A0 The patch submitted= in this<br> > bug was to shortcut the hashing of the source *.el files, not to avoid= <br> > searching the extra directories.<br> ><br> > If the number of directories is the issue, then my suggestion is not<b= r> > to compile packages AOT, which AFAIU will cause all the *.eln files to= <br> > be written to a single subdirectory of the eln-cache (after<br> > compiling them the first time each one is loaded).=C2=A0 But that is a= <br> > separate issue which IMO should be discussed with Stefan and Philip,<b= r> > because it's related to how third-party packages are installed and= <br> > compiled.<br> <br> It's not the AOT that's the issue, it's the search for the sour= ce file<br> to compute the content hash.=C2=A0 But otherwise, you're right, it'= s a<br> general issue with package management.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir= =3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">That being said, a profile of the sta= rtup (without the patch) would be the best way to tell where the issue is.<= /div><div dir=3D"auto">Probably should have led with that.</div><div dir=3D= "auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Lynn</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d= iv dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquot= e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s= olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote></div></div></div> --000000000000f75a2c0634f0254b--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78340 Cc: sunlin7@HIDDEN, acorallo@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 8:16=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > From: Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN> > > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 08:02:56 -0400 > > Cc: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>, sunlin7@HIDDEN, 78340@debbu= gs.gnu.org > > > > If he has that many packages, his load path has hundreds of entries, an= d any preloaded library will look in > > every one before finding it in the last entry ... > > Maybe so, but that's a separate problem. The patch submitted in this > bug was to shortcut the hashing of the source *.el files, not to avoid > searching the extra directories. > > If the number of directories is the issue, then my suggestion is not > to compile packages AOT, which AFAIU will cause all the *.eln files to > be written to a single subdirectory of the eln-cache (after > compiling them the first time each one is loaded). But that is a > separate issue which IMO should be discussed with Stefan and Philip, > because it's related to how third-party packages are installed and > compiled. It's not the AOT that's the issue, it's the search for the source file to compute the content hash. But otherwise, you're right, it's a general issue with package management. Lynn
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 78340) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2025 12:16:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 12 08:16:17 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51051 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1uES4v-0000xZ-EX for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2025 08:16:17 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38064) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uES4m-0000x1-NP for 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2025 08:16:12 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uES4c-0001wz-Oh; Mon, 12 May 2025 08:16:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=oQbhsrS7eGy8n1ZtjCWzaiIjYWKyyDwSkXlZYptWgkY=; b=l+DeAxfVsIqX n7ce2jPPL+0NpNQY+aKwJG3oJkYisJkoNssghV1+ZIFvxtBXn5UPqDrxItvoSYOIMXYRpwCQx0eSv 13V1aQ4gsVzoYKFjUITw0qqjpIw2qOjsHLNKXGFNY6/hbhIJ9HcuYgeClBkO4wVVu7OG2qAa566px FEQblRA/uv7GxbndNVwqrejZ7lQqEv5p3TLpZOx8DEhW1BJAK/4dTnTJR0I9F7wrozb1Zk0YJ1Mef UWRz/SB5YTJDfRdYlFH0T+LK+yZh/j+hYaicqTpiB0kBSpfsltsyhL/m7hluxhJX3jvUjdKj8HFV6 7Op4bFBrKTRTGzutmwSVzw==; Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 15:15:29 +0300 Message-Id: <86o6vy6n4u.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAM=F=bAsPT_+EVW-TmSRjfrp4vM9d4_0SVgmL5753xAwR7L5Fg@HIDDEN> (message from Lynn Winebarger on Mon, 12 May 2025 08:02:56 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#78340: [PATCH] New option for comp *.eln file name by the file timestamp of *.el References: <TYCPR01MB10004CCA1C51688FA14DF0167FB8AA@HIDDEN> <864ixtc5gw.fsf@HIDDEN> <yp1zffi5g7b.fsf@HIDDEN> <86plge6o0z.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAM=F=bAsPT_+EVW-TmSRjfrp4vM9d4_0SVgmL5753xAwR7L5Fg@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78340 Cc: sunlin7@HIDDEN, acorallo@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@HIDDEN> > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 08:02:56 -0400 > Cc: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>, sunlin7@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > If he has that many packages, his load path has hundreds of entries, and any preloaded library will look in > every one before finding it in the last entry ... Maybe so, but that's a separate problem. The patch submitted in this bug was to shortcut the hashing of the source *.el files, not to avoid searching the extra directories. If the number of directories is the issue, then my suggestion is not to compile packages AOT, which AFAIU will cause all the *.eln files to be written to a single subdirectory of the eln-cache (after compiling them the first time each one is loaded). But that is a separate issue which IMO should be discussed with Stefan and Philip, because it's related to how third-party packages are installed and compiled.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
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On Mon, May 12, 2025, 7:57=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote: > > From: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN> > > Cc: Lin Sun <sunlin7@HIDDEN>, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 05:30:32 -0400 > > > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > > > Anyway, unless Andrea (CC'ed) enthusiastically embraces this, > > > > I don't "enthusiastically embrace" this :). > > > > I share all the concerns you have listed, the hash system was > > constructed exactly to rely on something more robust than timestamps. > > Thanks, I presumed you'd think that. > > > I'm no Windows expert, why do why see such a performance hit on this > > system? > > Disk I/O is slower, so loading hundreds of packages at startup (which > is what the OP does, AFAIU) takes time. > > On my MS-Windows system, the following command > > time emacs -Q --eval "(progn (message \"foo\") (kill-emacs))" > > reports the following times: > > real 00h00m00.149s > user 00h00m00.109s > sys 00h00m00.031s > > This loads the *.eln files for all the preloaded Lisp packages. In my > case, there are 162 *.eln files loaded by the above command. I don't > know how many *.eln files does the OP have that are loaded at startup, > but even 1500 of them should load in, like, 1.5 sec, which should be > still okay for startup (that is supposed to be a rare event). > > So I personally don't see this as a serious problem, but maybe I'm > missing something. > > > > --0000000000006e463d0634ef192c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <p dir=3D"ltr">If he has that many packages, his load path has hundreds of = entries, and any preloaded library will look in every one before finding it= in the last entry ...</p> <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class= =3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, May 12, 2025, 7:57=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <<a = href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquo= te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so= lid;padding-left:1ex">> From: Andrea Corallo <<a href=3D"mailto:acora= llo@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">acorallo@HIDDEN</a>><= br> > Cc: Lin Sun <<a href=3D"mailto:sunlin7@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blan= k" rel=3D"noreferrer">sunlin7@HIDDEN</a>>,=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:= 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">78340@HIDDEN= nu.org</a><br> > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 05:30:32 -0400<br> > <br> > Eli Zaretskii <<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" re= l=3D"noreferrer">eliz@HIDDEN</a>> writes:<br> > <br> > > Anyway, unless Andrea (CC'ed) enthusiastically embraces this,= <br> > <br> > I don't "enthusiastically embrace" this :).<br> > <br> > I share all the concerns you have listed, the hash system was<br> > constructed exactly to rely on something more robust than timestamps.<= br> <br> Thanks, I presumed you'd think that.<br> <br> > I'm no Windows expert, why do why see such a performance hit on th= is<br> > system?<br> <br> Disk I/O is slower, so loading hundreds of packages at startup (which<br> is what the OP does, AFAIU) takes time.<br> <br> On my MS-Windows system, the following command<br> <br> =C2=A0 time emacs -Q --eval "(progn (message \"foo\") (kill-= emacs))"<br> <br> reports the following times:<br> <br> =C2=A0 real=C2=A0 =C2=A0 00h00m00.149s<br> =C2=A0 user=C2=A0 =C2=A0 00h00m00.109s<br> =C2=A0 sys=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000h00m00.031s<br> <br> This loads the *.eln files for all the preloaded Lisp packages.=C2=A0 In my= <br> case, there are 162 *.eln files loaded by the above command.=C2=A0 I don= 9;t<br> know how many *.eln files does the OP have that are loaded at startup,<br> but even 1500 of them should load in, like, 1.5 sec, which should be<br> still okay for startup (that is supposed to be a rare event).<br> <br> So I personally don't see this as a serious problem, but maybe I'm<= br> missing something.<br> <br> <br> <br> </blockquote></div> --0000000000006e463d0634ef192c--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 78340) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2025 11:56:31 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 12 07:56:31 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50930 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1uERln-0008IA-26 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2025 07:56:31 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33416) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uERlk-0008Hc-5l for 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2025 07:56:28 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uERld-0007js-La; Mon, 12 May 2025 07:56:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=LfZEIC8T4kVtOUa3fuJi/z/8oNHCi4ocvP4BBjQ9fok=; b=qhLQWHA6Y/+B WOcabvFnKY23rrrs2fay+E11b8ufEiTKH073hIF2kjNhdcOjx3+ktmx2Z9ne0+MQJ6J33qutRkqYp 2kmNDS4zZ8RcOAaTXQe7t8o22qIV/eOjtVUem9FsPxMX61rYRq069oiCGHt+xhYOP+MTIUErCvOvE iuSouJ0Q4F9B2mM2LFF5eSzYcC0fGLArx25IF6uvEAhfOoBfH7FjfTaWWSTfnKxDfQ9RK0WHnfzfq G5DK2zHzvSpkSB/9BMTsCtufdmTOBFixWo1dbWGDPZbPE5aOvNI1WjZhWzJj/K4mvO3VvL+WfOpE4 yjHb0JqyBLQ1shWEm8NEmA==; Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 14:56:12 +0300 Message-Id: <86plge6o0z.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <yp1zffi5g7b.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Andrea Corallo on Mon, 12 May 2025 05:30:32 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#78340: [PATCH] New option for comp *.eln file name by the file timestamp of *.el References: <TYCPR01MB10004CCA1C51688FA14DF0167FB8AA@HIDDEN> <864ixtc5gw.fsf@HIDDEN> <yp1zffi5g7b.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78340 Cc: sunlin7@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN> > Cc: Lin Sun <sunlin7@HIDDEN>, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 05:30:32 -0400 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > Anyway, unless Andrea (CC'ed) enthusiastically embraces this, > > I don't "enthusiastically embrace" this :). > > I share all the concerns you have listed, the hash system was > constructed exactly to rely on something more robust than timestamps. Thanks, I presumed you'd think that. > I'm no Windows expert, why do why see such a performance hit on this > system? Disk I/O is slower, so loading hundreds of packages at startup (which is what the OP does, AFAIU) takes time. On my MS-Windows system, the following command time emacs -Q --eval "(progn (message \"foo\") (kill-emacs))" reports the following times: real 00h00m00.149s user 00h00m00.109s sys 00h00m00.031s This loads the *.eln files for all the preloaded Lisp packages. In my case, there are 162 *.eln files loaded by the above command. I don't know how many *.eln files does the OP have that are loaded at startup, but even 1500 of them should load in, like, 1.5 sec, which should be still okay for startup (that is supposed to be a rare event). So I personally don't see this as a serious problem, but maybe I'm missing something.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 78340) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2025 09:30:44 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 12 05:30:44 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50229 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1uEPUi-000603-1w for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2025 05:30:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38886) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <acorallo@HIDDEN>) id 1uEPUf-0005ze-Gx for 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 May 2025 05:30:42 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <acorallo@HIDDEN>) id 1uEPUY-0007MR-8p; Mon, 12 May 2025 05:30:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=yBB7n/fPWuQ0ru+yZkAXb4wGTG7QoD4Iq6hplPzPkUI=; b=XCjXb3ARciSDtnuVcBp4 gOr4uqoPYuYBCBg1uZXiIq/OabXIk+kCg58QnVjG2+Q7hIOIbcpNsOHwZ2IuhvufkxyK0/u3/PR5M In6Zykk4mzCjIGHW4Te6xvrbIE7pLjJv8hT0ltafeFW13Zndm+SdzRLPjRhRqHiYGDTKuoiwsLOjE f+3GPN3Ud3TzmX+oBPQ9WrGVctNf525CuKF0us2HiKp2U47kuSGq3ytGq/bmEi9gY8ysTb/QXXvfI hgAtozR+72tc6decq8qCsR6WtZLaFBAKBpH9BX62gWS1/91mkenTINbGL0Tu1nSWS3ZJJxCgQEjAg MvVzurf9ycTq3Q==; Received: from acorallo by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <acorallo@HIDDEN>) id 1uEPUW-0007nM-Uk; Mon, 12 May 2025 05:30:33 -0400 From: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#78340: [PATCH] New option for comp *.eln file name by the file timestamp of *.el In-Reply-To: <864ixtc5gw.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 10 May 2025 10:03:43 +0300") References: <TYCPR01MB10004CCA1C51688FA14DF0167FB8AA@HIDDEN> <864ixtc5gw.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 05:30:32 -0400 Message-ID: <yp1zffi5g7b.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78340 Cc: Lin Sun <sunlin7@HIDDEN>, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> From: Lin Sun <sunlin7@HIDDEN> >> Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 00:07:52 +0000 >> >> Currently Emacs with native comp will comp .eln file name by the >> full context of the .el or .el.gz file in function >> "comp-el-to-eln-rel-filename". >> For example, emacs startup will require the simple.elc, then have to read full of simple.el.gz to calculate the name simple-X-Y.eln. >> >> That's slow on Windows. >> >> This patch introduced a new option "fts" (file time stamp) for >> "--with-native-compile", it will let the function >> "comp-el-to-eln-rel-filename" to get the .eln name by reading the >> .el/.el.gz file timestamp, make emacs faster on Windows. On my >> Windows testing env, the Emacs startup up time was reduced from 8s >> to 6.5s with 386 packages, speedup ~20%. > > Is this with a cold disk cache or a warm disk cache? IOW, if you > start Emacs, then kill the Emacs session, and then start it again, do > you still measure 8 sec or do you measure a significantly shorter > time? > > Also, is your anti-virus software configured to ignore *.eln files in > the directories where you install them? The *.eln files are DLLs as > far as Windows is concerned, so it's executable code, and anti-virus > software will therefore generally scan them when accessed or loaded, > which could significantly slow down loading. > > Anyway, unless Andrea (CC'ed) enthusiastically embraces this, I don't "enthusiastically embrace" this :). I share all the concerns you have listed, the hash system was constructed exactly to rely on something more robust than timestamps. I'm no Windows expert, why do why see such a performance hit on this system? Andrea
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 78340) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 May 2025 15:46:27 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 10 11:46:27 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48379 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1uDmPD-0000vU-AI for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 May 2025 11:46:27 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51104) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uDmPA-0000vA-HG for 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 May 2025 11:46:25 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1uDmP5-0005Ir-8M; Sat, 10 May 2025 11:46:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=SAYWJk66jXZ5WelGdpiUuaP4oELDAk+/phJnZUqchTA=; b=WuDE+ILNOgWFowXokL3Y Hlq2dXNgJKhRJ4bA2id5XzBWMgRfaLzNVrX8HcgfIR0kSyNcULENeQlQ9IeoxLhqUSBAAOUQRrkTL K3jfhCgSg55vWw27GNEiN///Ah5+maQHVHQFIsCOQTjVXNqzyPLX1IzProHECWok4cHqk49moEIDd sCnnpRDewtrG10OKttkJLK81OVDQzJdrjXQJK9TsNYu1TxNHLjBxMEaXUwdEey9Uiofa+C2w5LAac 9TzO8hdZXuXloP1QQlCP1j8w4a/dOXSQG0yjvY8iWfVpDro+xOB6IecYnZAd4pDySrp5A04azqdKU aZXrU7y4gk2WZw==; Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 18:46:15 +0300 Message-Id: <86tt5s8o54.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lin Sun <sunlin7@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <TYCPR01MB10004E508BF65E0C9550342CBFB95A@HIDDEN> (message from Lin Sun on Sat, 10 May 2025 15:28:15 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#78340: [PATCH] New option for comp *.eln file name by the file timestamp of *.el References: <TYCPR01MB10004CCA1C51688FA14DF0167FB8AA@HIDDEN> <864ixtc5gw.fsf@HIDDEN> <TYCPR01MB10004E508BF65E0C9550342CBFB95A@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78340 Cc: acorallo@HIDDEN, 78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lin Sun <sunlin7@HIDDEN> > CC: "78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 15:28:15 +0000 > > > Also, is your anti-virus software configured to ignore *.eln files in > > the directories where you install them? The *.eln files are DLLs as > > far as Windows is concerned, so it's executable code, and anti-virus > > software will therefore generally scan them when accessed or loaded, > > which could significantly slow down loading. > > I tested on same environment, with this patch it will speedup Emacs loading files. I asked specifically about anti-virus: did you try to configure it so as not to scan the *.eln files? > > . it is easy to "fake" file's time using 'touch' 'cp -p' and similar > > techniques; in fact, the Emacs "make install" uses that > > . on a modern system, it is quite possible to have a newer file have > > the same time stamp as an older file, due to relatively low > > resolution of file time stamps > > . Emacs on MS-Windows has a 1-sec granularity of file time stamps, > > which makes the above even worse > > > > All of the above means that using the file time stamps risks loading > > incorrect *.eln files, which could crash Emacs. So up front, I don't > > think we should have this feature, on Windows or elsewhere. > > The .eln file is named in filename-X-Y.eln format, timestamp change maybe lead that Emacs can not find the .eln file, then Emacs will use the .elc/.el file, still works. I'm actually bothered by the false-positive case: when the time stamp matches, but the file is wrong. These 2 hashes are there for a very good reason: loading an incompatible file could cause fatal failures and loss of data and edits. > This option gives Emacs user a chance to build a faster Emacs on their local, especially for Emacs on Windows. And it's not a default option, won't bother the user who don't build the Emacs themself. Sorry, I don't think it's right to add options that could risk crashing Emacs. What kind of project are we if we add such options, even if they are off by default? So let's wait for Andrea to provide his opinion on this.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: sct-15-20-7719-20-msonline-outlook-15995.templateTenant X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYCPR01MB10004.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 97b53944-fab4-4fc1-263b-08dd8fd74899 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 May 2025 15:28:15.5085 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TY3PR01MB9810 X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78340 Cc: "78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <78340 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) From:=A0Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>=0A= Sent:=A0Saturday, May 10, 2025 07:03 AM=0A= > Is this with a cold disk cache or a warm disk cache?=A0 IOW, if you=0A= > start Emacs, then kill the Emacs session, and then start it again, do=0A= > you still measure 8 sec or do you measure a significantly shorter time?= =0A= =0A= It's an average time, I run it on same environment ~5 times then cal the va= lue. =0A= =0A= > Also, is your anti-virus software configured to ignore *.eln files in=0A= > the directories where you install them?=A0 The *.eln files are DLLs as=0A= > far as Windows is concerned, so it's executable code, and anti-virus=0A= > software will therefore generally scan them when accessed or loaded,=0A= > which could significantly slow down loading.=0A= =0A= I tested on same environment, with this patch it will speedup Emacs loading= files.=0A= =0A= > Anyway, unless Andrea (CC'ed) enthusiastically embraces this, I don't=0A= > think it's correct to install this feature.=A0 Time stamps are too=0A= > unreliable for this job:=0A= > =0A= >=A0 . it is easy to "fake" file's time using 'touch' 'cp -p' and similar= =0A= >=A0=A0=A0 techniques; in fact, the Emacs "make install" uses that=0A= >=A0 . on a modern system, it is quite possible to have a newer file have= =0A= >=A0=A0=A0 the same time stamp as an older file, due to relatively low=0A= >=A0=A0=A0 resolution of file time stamps=0A= >=A0 . Emacs on MS-Windows has a 1-sec granularity of file time stamps,=0A= >=A0=A0=A0 which makes the above even worse=0A= >=0A= > All of the above means that using the file time stamps risks loading=0A= > incorrect *.eln files, which could crash Emacs.=A0 So up front, I don't= =0A= > think we should have this feature, on Windows or elsewhere.=0A= =0A= The .eln file is named in filename-X-Y.eln format, timestamp change maybe l= ead that Emacs can not find the .eln file, then Emacs will use the .elc/.el= file, still works.=0A= =0A= All these won't compare to a malicious user compiling a .so/.dll file and r= eplacing an exists .eln, reading full content to calculate the file name wo= n't stop that risk.=0A= =0A= This option gives Emacs user a chance to build a faster Emacs on their loca= l, especially for Emacs on Windows. And it's not a default option, won't bo= ther the user who don't build the Emacs themself.=0A=
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
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Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 10:03:43 +0300
Message-Id: <864ixtc5gw.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Lin Sun <sunlin7@HIDDEN>, Andrea Corallo <acorallo@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <TYCPR01MB10004CCA1C51688FA14DF0167FB8AA@HIDDEN>
(message from Lin Sun on Sat, 10 May 2025 00:07:52 +0000)
Subject: Re: bug#78340: [PATCH] New option for comp *.eln file name by the file
timestamp of *.el
References: <TYCPR01MB10004CCA1C51688FA14DF0167FB8AA@HIDDEN>
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> From: Lin Sun <sunlin7@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 00:07:52 +0000
>
> Currently Emacs with native comp will comp .eln file name by the full context of the .el or .el.gz file in function "comp-el-to-eln-rel-filename".
> For example, emacs startup will require the simple.elc, then have to read full of simple.el.gz to calculate the name simple-X-Y.eln.
>
> That's slow on Windows.
>
> This patch introduced a new option "fts" (file time stamp) for "--with-native-compile", it will let the function "comp-el-to-eln-rel-filename" to get the .eln name by reading the .el/.el.gz file timestamp, make emacs faster on Windows. On my Windows testing env, the Emacs startup up time was reduced from 8s to 6.5s with 386 packages, speedup ~20%.
Is this with a cold disk cache or a warm disk cache? IOW, if you
start Emacs, then kill the Emacs session, and then start it again, do
you still measure 8 sec or do you measure a significantly shorter
time?
Also, is your anti-virus software configured to ignore *.eln files in
the directories where you install them? The *.eln files are DLLs as
far as Windows is concerned, so it's executable code, and anti-virus
software will therefore generally scan them when accessed or loaded,
which could significantly slow down loading.
Anyway, unless Andrea (CC'ed) enthusiastically embraces this, I don't
think it's correct to install this feature. Time stamps are too
unreliable for this job:
. it is easy to "fake" file's time using 'touch' 'cp -p' and similar
techniques; in fact, the Emacs "make install" uses that
. on a modern system, it is quite possible to have a newer file have
the same time stamp as an older file, due to relatively low
resolution of file time stamps
. Emacs on MS-Windows has a 1-sec granularity of file time stamps,
which makes the above even worse
All of the above means that using the file time stamps risks loading
incorrect *.eln files, which could crash Emacs. So up front, I don't
think we should have this feature, on Windows or elsewhere.
Thanks.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi, Currently Emacs with native comp will comp .eln file name by the full context of the .el or .el.gz file in function "comp-el-to-eln-rel-filename". For example, emacs startup will require the simple.el [...] Content analysis details: (1.2 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.9 SPF_FAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (fail) [SPF failed: Please see http://www.openspf.org/Why?s=mfrom; id=sunlin7%40hotmail.com; ip=2001%3A470%3A142%3A%3A17; r=debbugs.gnu.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (sunlin7[at]hotmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.2 FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT Envelope-from freemail username ends in digit (sunlin7[at]hotmail.com) -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [2001:470:142:0:0:0:0:17 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 0.0 SPOOFED_FREEMAIL No description available. X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) --_002_TYCPR01MB10004CCA1C51688FA14DF0167FB8AATYCPR01MB10004jp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=0A= =0A= Currently Emacs with native comp will comp .eln file name by the full conte= xt of the .el or .el.gz file in function "comp-el-to-eln-rel-filename".=0A= For example, emacs startup will require the simple.elc, then have to read f= ull of simple.el.gz to calculate the name simple-X-Y.eln. =0A= =0A= That's slow on Windows.=0A= =0A= This patch introduced a new option "fts" (file time stamp) for "--with-nati= ve-compile", it will let the function "comp-el-to-eln-rel-filename" to get = the .eln name by reading the .el/.el.gz file timestamp, make emacs faster o= n Windows. On my Windows testing env, the Emacs startup up time was reduce= d from 8s to 6.5s with 386 packages, speedup ~20%.=0A= =0A= The option can be combined with the exists option "aot", like "--with-nativ= e-compile=3Daot,fts".=0A= =0A= This patch is safe for Emacs Windows release, which building with native co= mpile enabled, but does not ship the libgccjit.dll. So the shipped *.eln is= like constant files, user won't be able to recompile one; then this patch = is safe for the scenario. =0A= =0A= Please help review this new option. Thanks=0A= =0A= Best Regards=0A= Lin= --_002_TYCPR01MB10004CCA1C51688FA14DF0167FB8AATYCPR01MB10004jp_ Content-Type: text/x-patch; name="0001-New-option-for-comp-.eln-file-name-by-the-file-times.patch" Content-Description: 0001-New-option-for-comp-.eln-file-name-by-the-file-times.patch Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-New-option-for-comp-.eln-file-name-by-the-file-times.patch"; size=3996; creation-date="Sat, 10 May 2025 00:07:12 GMT"; modification-date="Sat, 10 May 2025 00:07:12 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSBhODk4YTNjMmNmZWM4NTdhNjc3ZWY1NGZkNGM0ZTQ5ZTRlYzZiYWNiIE1vbiBTZXAgMTcg MDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBMaW4gU3VuIDxzdW5saW43QGhvdG1haWwuY29tPgpEYXRlOiBN b24sIDUgTWF5IDIwMjUgMDY6MzA6MDIgKzAwMDAKU3ViamVjdDogW1BBVENIXSBOZXcgb3B0aW9u IGZvciBjb21wICouZWxuIGZpbGUgbmFtZSBieSB0aGUgZmlsZSB0aW1lc3RhbXAgb2YKICouZWwK CiogY29uZmlndXJlLmFjOiBOZXcgb3B0aW9uICJmdHMiIGZvciBuYXRpdmUgY29tcGlsYXRpb24K KiBzcmMvY29tcC5jOiBIYXNoIHRoZSBmaWxlIHRpbWUgc3RhbXAgaW5zdGVhZCBvZiBmaWxlIGZ1 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Lin Sun <sunlin7@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#78340; Package emacs.
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