Mats Lidell <matsl@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
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From: Mats Lidell <matsl@HIDDEN>
To: Cena Mayo <cenazoic@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#78436: Koutliner M-x hyperbole k o vs C-h h k o error
messaging
In-Reply-To: <CAACLqcSsTGA7-ZJiq4QZBs8OxZq5XM2niYp56BXf6nn0PwLRPA@HIDDEN>
References: <CAACLqcSsTGA7-ZJiq4QZBs8OxZq5XM2niYp56BXf6nn0PwLRPA@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 10:32:25 +0200
Message-ID: <87wmai5l5y.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> Cena Mayo writes:
> This is another instance where I'm just doing it wrong, but noting as a p=
ossible ...I don't know what the right word is - usability issue, maybe? U=
X?=20
> Something along those lines.
>
> Using: GNU Emacs 31.0.50 (build 1, aarch64-apple-darwin23.6.0, NS appkit=
-2487.70 Version 14.7.5 (Build 23H527)) of 2025-05-13
>
> GNU Hyperbole 9.0.2pre (downloaded today)
> =3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> In this case, attempting to perform Koutliner actions while the *scratch*=
buffer is active:
>
> a) M-x hyperbole, k, o =3D>=20
>
> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "(kotl-mode:is-p): =E2=80=99*scratch=
*=E2=80=99 is not a valid Hyperbole koutline")
> error("(kotl-mode:is-p): '*scratch*' is not a valid Hyperbole kou=
tline")
> hypb:error("(kotl-mode:is-p): '%s' is not a valid Hyperbole koutl=
ine" #<buffer *scratch*>)
> kotl-mode:is-p()
> kotl-mode:show-all()
> kotl-mode:overview(nil)
> funcall-interactively(kotl-mode:overview nil)
> hui:menu-act(hyperbole nil nil nil)
> hyperbole(nil nil nil nil)
> funcall-interactively(hyperbole nil nil nil nil)
> command-execute(hyperbole record)
> execute-extended-command(nil "hyperbole" "hyperbole")
> funcall-interactively(execute-extended-command nil "hyperbole" "h=
yperbole")
> command-execute(execute-extended-command)
>
> However,=20
>
> b) C-h h, k, o =3D>=20
> reports "hypb:error: (kotl-mode:is-p): =E2=80=99*scratch*=E2=80=99 is no=
t a valid Hyperbole koutline" in echo.=20
>
> At the point I got these messages I was following along with the Info man=
ual (2.1 Invocation) and just randomly selected K , O to see what it did. =
I
> hadn't yet read the bit about o(vervw) "Show[ing] first line of each cell=
", (9.1 Koutliner Menu Commands) so fair enough, I tried to perform an ill=
egal
> action (attempted that action in a non-Koutliner buffer).=20=20
>
> Further confusion was had when I ran the commands in a .kotl buffer and i=
t (appropriately, although I didn't realize it at the time) showed me the f=
irst line
> of each cell. I assumed most of my existing text had been deleted, so I=
tried a C-/ to undo.=20
>
> That sent a rather inscrutable "Changes to be undone are outside visible =
portion of buffer" message. That error seems to be caused by attempting to
> undo a narrowed region. Which, unbeknownst to me, was turned on. (Clear=
as day, there was 'Narrow' in my mode-line.) So I followed the advice in t=
he
> linked thread and invoked M-x widen.
>
> Great, everything returned! (I eventually figured out that C-h h k a wou=
ld do it too). But M-x widen also inserted this at the bottom of my .kotl=
buffer:
>
> "ben" ;; kvspec:current
> 1 ;; id-counter
> alpha ;; label-type
> 4 ;; label-min-width
> ". " ;; label-separator
> 3 ;; level-indent
>
> ;; depth-first kcell attributes
> [[0
> (creator "cena@byzantium" create-time "20250514:19:33:49" id-counter 1)]
> [1
> (creator "cena@byzantium" create-time "20250514:19:33:49")]]
>
> (C-h h k a did not insert the above).=20=20
>
> I ASSume it's something to do with the cell properties, but I didn't make=
any changes there - this is all from a fresh install and just typing in a =
.kotl file
> using whatever the default settings are, then running commands.
>
> Best,
> Cena Mayo
Thanks for the report and for trying out koutliner.
As you figured out the overview action is only valid for a kotline. Hence t=
here is an error message when that is applied to another type of buffer. I =
suppose what this is telling us is that a more user friendly message could =
be displayed in this case.
For the narrowing issue. A koutline is not a text format but a binary forma=
t. Narrowing is used to hide parts of the buffer that is not meant for the =
user to edit directly. And if you do edit that the koutline might be broken=
. Se be careful. The take away is that we need to see if we can turn the er=
ror message into something that makes more sense for a koutline user.
Again, thanks for the report.
%% Mats
bug-hyperbole@HIDDEN:bug#78436; Package hyperbole.
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Subject: Koutliner M-x hyperbole k o vs C-h h k o error messaging
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Content preview: This is another instance where I'm just doing it wrong, but
noting as a possible ...I don't know what the right word is - usability issue,
maybe? UX? Something along those lines. Using: GNU Emacs 31.0.50 (build 1,
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This is another instance where I'm just doing it wrong, but noting as a
possible ...I don't know what the right word is - usability issue, maybe?
UX? Something along those lines.
Using: GNU Emacs 31.0.50 (build 1, aarch64-apple-darwin23.6.0, NS
appkit-2487.70 Version 14.7.5 (Build 23H527)) of 2025-05-13
GNU Hyperbole 9.0.2pre (downloaded today)
=3D=3D=3D=3D
In this case, attempting to perform Koutliner actions while the *scratch*
buffer is active:
a) *M-x hyperbole, k, o* =3D>
Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "(kotl-mode:is-p): =E2=80=99*scratch*=
=E2=80=99 is not
a valid Hyperbole koutline")
error("(kotl-mode:is-p): '*scratch*' is not a valid Hyperbole
koutline")
hypb:error("(kotl-mode:is-p): '%s' is not a valid Hyperbole
koutline" #<buffer *scratch*>)
kotl-mode:is-p()
kotl-mode:show-all()
kotl-mode:overview(nil)
funcall-interactively(kotl-mode:overview nil)
hui:menu-act(hyperbole nil nil nil)
hyperbole(nil nil nil nil)
funcall-interactively(hyperbole nil nil nil nil)
command-execute(hyperbole record)
execute-extended-command(nil "hyperbole" "hyperbole")
funcall-interactively(execute-extended-command nil "hyperbole"
"hyperbole")
command-execute(execute-extended-command)
However,
b) *C-h h, k, o *=3D>
reports "hypb:error: (kotl-mode:is-p): =E2=80=99*scratch*=E2=80=99 is not =
a valid
Hyperbole koutline" in echo.
At the point I got these messages I was following along with the Info
manual (2.1 Invocation) and just randomly selected K , O to see what it
did. I hadn't yet read the bit about o(vervw) "Show[ing] first line of
each cell", (9.1 Koutliner Menu Commands) so fair enough, I tried to
perform an illegal action (attempted that action in a non-Koutliner
buffer).
Further confusion was had when I ran the commands in a .kotl buffer and it
(appropriately, although I didn't realize it at the time) showed me the
first line of each cell. I assumed most of my existing text had been
deleted, so I tried a *C-/ *to undo.
That sent a rather inscrutable "Changes to be undone are outside visible
portion of buffer" message. That error seems to be caused by attempting
to undo a narrowed region
<https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2014-04/msg00324.html>*.
*Which, unbeknownst to me, was turned on. (Clear as day, there was
'Narrow' in my mode-line.) So I followed the advice in the linked thread
and invoked *M-x widen.*
Great, everything returned! (I eventually figured out that *C-h h k a*
would do it too). But M-x widen also inserted this at the bottom of my
.kotl buffer:
"ben" ;; kvspec:current
1 ;; id-counter
alpha ;; label-type
4 ;; label-min-width
". " ;; label-separator
3 ;; level-indent
;; depth-first kcell attributes
[[0
(creator "cena@byzantium" create-time "20250514:19:33:49" id-counter 1)]
[1
(creator "cena@byzantium" create-time "20250514:19:33:49")]]
(C-h h k a did not insert the above).
I ASSume it's something to do with the cell properties, but I didn't make
any changes there - this is all from a fresh install and just typing in a
.kotl file using whatever the default settings are, then running commands.
Best,
Cena Mayo
--000000000000b5fdcc0635219fab
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>This is another instance where I'm just doing it =
wrong, but noting as a possible=C2=A0 ...I don't know what the right wo=
rd is - usability issue, maybe? UX?=C2=A0 Something along those lines.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Using:=C2=A0 GNU Emacs 31.0.50 (build 1, aarch64-apple=
-darwin23.6.0, NS appkit-2487.70 Version 14.7.5 (Build 23H527)) of 2025-05-=
13</div><div><br></div><div>GNU Hyperbole 9.0.2pre (downloaded today)</div>=
<div>=3D=3D=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><div>In this case, attempting to perf=
orm Koutliner actions while the *scratch* buffer is active:</div><div><br><=
/div><div>a) <b>M-x hyperbole, k, o</b> =3D> <br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "(kotl-mode:is-p): =E2=80=99*s=
cratch*=E2=80=99 is not a valid Hyperbole koutline")<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 error("(kotl-mode:is-p): '*scratch*' is not a va=
lid Hyperbole koutline")<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hypb:error(&qu=
ot;(kotl-mode:is-p): '%s' is not a valid Hyperbole koutline" #=
<buffer *scratch*>)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 kotl-mode:is-p()<b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 kotl-mode:show-all()<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 kotl-mode:overview(nil)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 funcall-inter=
actively(kotl-mode:overview nil)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hui:menu-ac=
t(hyperbole nil nil nil)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hyperbole(nil nil n=
il nil)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 funcall-interactively(hyperbole nil =
nil nil nil)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 command-execute(hyperbole recor=
d)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 execute-extended-command(nil "hyperb=
ole" "hyperbole")<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 funcall-int=
eractively(execute-extended-command nil "hyperbole" "hyperbo=
le")<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 command-execute(execute-extended-c=
ommand)</div><div><br></div><div>However, <br></div><div><br></div><div>b) =
<b>C-h h, k, o </b>=3D> <br></div><div>reports=C2=A0 "hypb:error: (=
kotl-mode:is-p): =E2=80=99*scratch*=E2=80=99 is not a valid Hyperbole koutl=
ine" in echo. <br></div><div><br></div><div>At the point I got these m=
essages I was following along with the Info manual (2.1 Invocation) and jus=
t randomly selected K , O to see what it did. =C2=A0=C2=A0 I hadn't yet=
read the bit about o(vervw) "Show[ing] first line of each cell",=
(9.1 Koutliner Menu Commands) so fair enough,=C2=A0 I tried to perform an =
illegal action (attempted that action in a non-Koutliner buffer).=C2=A0 <br=
></div><div><br></div><div>Further confusion was had when I ran the command=
s in a .kotl buffer and it (appropriately, although I didn't realize it=
at the time) showed me the first line of each cell.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I assumed =
most of my existing text had been deleted, so I tried a <b>C-/ </b>to undo.=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>That sent a rather inscrutable "Change=
s to be undone are outside visible portion of buffer" message.=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 That error seems to be caused by attempting to undo a <a href=3D"htt=
ps://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2014-04/msg00324.html">narro=
wed region</a><i>.=C2=A0 </i>Which, unbeknownst to me, was turned on.=C2=A0=
(Clear as day, there was 'Narrow' in my mode-line.) So I followed =
the advice in the linked thread and invoked <b>M-x widen.</b></div><div><b>=
<br></b></div><div>Great, everything returned!=C2=A0 (I eventually figured =
out that <b>C-h h k a</b> would do it too).=C2=A0=C2=A0 But M-x widen also =
inserted this at the bottom of my .kotl buffer:<br> <br>"ben" ;; =
kvspec:current<br>1 ;; id-counter<br>alpha ;; label-type<br>4 ;; label-min-=
width<br>". " ;; label-separator<br>3 ;; level-indent<br> <br>;; =
depth-first kcell attributes<br>[[0<br>=C2=A0 (creator "cena@byzantium=
" create-time "20250514:19:33:49" id-counter 1)]<br>=C2=A0[1=
<br>=C2=A0 (creator "cena@byzantium" create-time "20250514:1=
9:33:49")]]</div><div><br></div><div>(C-h h k a did not insert the abo=
ve).=C2=A0 <br></div><div><b><br></b></div><div>I ASSume it's something=
to do with the cell properties, but I didn't make any changes there - =
this is all from a fresh install and just typing in a .kotl file using what=
ever the default settings are, then running commands.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Best,</div><div>Cena Mayo</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><=
/div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>
--000000000000b5fdcc0635219fab--
Cena Mayo <cenazoic@HIDDEN>:bug-hyperbole@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-hyperbole@HIDDEN:bug#78436; Package hyperbole.
Full text available.
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Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
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1994-97 Ian Jackson.