Received: (at 78481) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 May 2025 21:04:53 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 18 17:04:53 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60991 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1uGlBl-0007fh-16 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2025 17:04:53 -0400 Received: from frenzy.freefriends.org ([198.99.81.75]:43154 helo=freefriends.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <karl@HIDDEN>) id 1uGlAQ-0007aW-Eg for 78481 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2025 17:03:30 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@HIDDEN Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 54IL3IdZ2898808 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 18 May 2025 15:03:19 -0600 Received: (from apache@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.14.7/Submit) id 54IL3IoT2898807; Sun, 18 May 2025 15:03:18 -0600 Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 15:03:18 -0600 Message-Id: <202505182103.54IL3IoT2898807@HIDDEN> From: Karl Berry <karl@HIDDEN> To: jemarch@HIDDEN Subject: Re: [bug#78481] [PATCH V2] Support for the Algol 68 language In-Reply-To: <87y0uu7xnl.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78481 Cc: ibuclaw@HIDDEN, autoconf-patches@HIDDEN, eggert@HIDDEN, rdubner@HIDDEN, arthur.cohen@HIDDEN, jklowden@HIDDEN, 78481 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bruno@HIDDEN, gaiusmod2@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Personally I prefer A68 and A68FLAGS, without the C. (And I'd like to make the Automake release quite soon.) Thanks, Karl (for Automake)
automake-patches@HIDDEN:bug#78481; Package automake-patches.
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From: "Jose E. Marchesi" <jemarch@HIDDEN>
To: Bruno Haible <bruno@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: [PATCH V2] Support for the Algol 68 language
In-Reply-To: <5211192.097qLLJo0e@nimes>
References: <5211192.097qLLJo0e@nimes>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 17:21:02 +0200
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Cc: Iain Buclaw <ibuclaw@HIDDEN>, autoconf-patches@HIDDEN,
Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>, "James K.
Lowden" <jklowden@HIDDEN>, Robert Dubner <rdubner@HIDDEN>,
automake-patches@HIDDEN, arthur.cohen@HIDDEN,
Gaius Mulley <gaiusmod2@HIDDEN>
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[Adding in CC:
- Iain Buclaw, the D front-end maintainer for GCC.
- Arthur Cohen, the Rust front-end maintainer for GCC.,
- James K. Lowden and Robert Dubner, the COBOL front-end maintainers
for GCC.]
Hi Bruno.
> In <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-04/msg00000.=
html>
> Paul Eggert renamed the variable A68 =E2=86=92 A68C, with the rationale:
> "Use the shell variable A68C, not A68,
> for the compiler. This is for consistency of names compared to
> support for other languages like Go."
>
> In <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-05/msg00000.=
html>
> Jos=C3=A9 Marchesi renamed the variable A68FLAGS =E2=86=92 A68CFLAGS, wit=
h the rationale:
> "as mandated by the GCS"
>
> The result of these renamings makes no sense to me:
>
> 1) The GNU Algol 68 compiler is meant to be named 'ga68', not 'ga68c'. =
[1]
> The prefix 'g' is specific for the GNU implementation; it's normal
> to ignore it here, when we talk about conventions that should encomp=
ass
> non-GNU implementations as well.
Some other GCC compilers use 'gcc' as a prefix, which I think could also
be considered "specific for the GNU implementation". If so, we would
have:
gcc CC
g++ CXX
gdc DC
ga68 A68
gcobol COBOL
gm2 M2
objc OBJC
gccrs RS
gccgo GO
> 2) The GCS [2] has examples where the variable name is the program name,
> uppercased.
>
> 3) As a result, users would be looking for a command 'a68c', but there =
is
> no such command.
Yes I agree, that is bad.
> I'm bringing this up because a similar case will be with the GNU Modula-2
> compiler, when we want to support it in Autoconf and Automake.
>
> * The GNU Modula-2 compiler is called 'gm2'. Therefore it will be natur=
al
> (per GCS [2]) to call the variables M2 and M2FLAGS.
>
> * Calling the variable M2C would be very very confusing, because there =
is
> a Modula-2 to C translator called 'm2c' [3][4][5] and, unlike gm2, it
> produces C code, not an executable.
>
> And the big picture should also consider the GNU D compiler, when we want
> to support it in Autoconf and Automake.
>
> * The GNU D compiler is called 'gdc'. Therefore, and because a 1-letter
> variable 'D' would be really odd, it makes sense to called the program
> variable 'DC'.
>
> * Whether the flags variable is then called DFLAGS (for consistency with
> CFLAGS) or DCFLAGS (per GCS [2]), can be debated.
>
> I think part of the problem comes from looking at the Go support.
>
> * Go is different than Algol 68 and Modula-2. The reference implementat=
ion
> ('go') and the GNU implementation ('gccgo') are multi-purpose program=
s.
> To compile a program, one uses
> $ go build foo.go
> or
> $ gccgo build foo.go
> To compile and run a program, one uses
> $ go run foo.go
> or
> $ gccgo run foo.go
>
> * The AC_PROG_GO macro [6] sets variables GOC and GOFLAGS. Which already
> violates the letter of the GCS [2].
>
> Since the AC_PROG_GO macro already violates the letter of the GCS [2] and=
is
> instead following the rule "The compiler options for programming language=
X
> is in variable XFLAGS", it is hard to reach both goals at the same time:
> (I) Following the letter of the GCS [2],
> (II) Consistency with the existing language support in Autoconf.
>
> I can see two reasonable ways of naming the variables; the current propos=
al
> from Jos=C3=A9 is, unfortunately, not among them:
It actually was, initially ^^
> Proposal A: Define (I) as the more important goal.
>
> GO GOFLAGS
>
> A68 A68FLAGS
>
> M2 M2FLAGS
>
> DC DCFLAGS
>
> This implies changing AC_PROG_GO so that it defines the GO variable, and
> deprecating the GOC variable.
>
> Proposal B: Define (II) as the more important goal.
>
> GOC GOFLAGS
>
> A68 or A68C A68FLAGS
>
> M2 M2FLAGS
>
> DC DFLAGS
>
> Here (II) is nearly fulfilled, except that we cannot use M2C as variabl=
e,
> as explained above. So, goal (II) is not entirely reached. Instead, the
> *FLAGS variable depends on the programming language, not on the compiler
> command. Goal (I) cannot be reached either, but it's a reasonable compr=
omise
> nevertheless.
For Algol 68 I always preferred A68/A68FLAGS to A68C/A68CFLAGS, and it
matches both proposals A and B.
So if the Autoconf and Automake maintainers agree to use Proposal A or
Proposal B, I will happily submit patches to change it in Automake and
update the Autoconf patch to reflect it. Fortunately the Algol 68
support in Automake hasn't been released yet, so there is still time to
correct this.
automake-patches@HIDDEN:bug#78481; Package automake-patches.
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From: Bruno Haible <bruno@HIDDEN>
To: autoconf-patches@HIDDEN, Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: [PATCH V2] Support for the Algol 68 language
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 16:40:29 +0200
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Cc: Gaius Mulley <gaiusmod2@HIDDEN>, automake-patches@HIDDEN,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= Marchesi <jemarch@HIDDEN>
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Hi,
Reply to this mail thread:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-01/msg00014.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-01/msg00015.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-01/msg00016.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-02/msg00000.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-02/msg00004.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-03/msg00000.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-04/msg00000.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-04/msg00001.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-05/msg00000.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-05/msg00004.html
In <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-04/msg00000.ht=
ml>
Paul Eggert renamed the variable A68 =E2=86=92 A68C, with the rationale:
"Use the shell variable A68C, not A68,
for the compiler. This is for consistency of names compared to
support for other languages like Go."
In <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-05/msg00000.ht=
ml>
Jos=C3=A9 Marchesi renamed the variable A68FLAGS =E2=86=92 A68CFLAGS, with =
the rationale:
"as mandated by the GCS"
The result of these renamings makes no sense to me:
1) The GNU Algol 68 compiler is meant to be named 'ga68', not 'ga68c'. [1]
The prefix 'g' is specific for the GNU implementation; it's normal
to ignore it here, when we talk about conventions that should encompass
non-GNU implementations as well.
2) The GCS [2] has examples where the variable name is the program name,
uppercased.
3) As a result, users would be looking for a command 'a68c', but there is
no such command.
I'm bringing this up because a similar case will be with the GNU Modula-2
compiler, when we want to support it in Autoconf and Automake.
* The GNU Modula-2 compiler is called 'gm2'. Therefore it will be natural
(per GCS [2]) to call the variables M2 and M2FLAGS.
* Calling the variable M2C would be very very confusing, because there is
a Modula-2 to C translator called 'm2c' [3][4][5] and, unlike gm2, it
produces C code, not an executable.
And the big picture should also consider the GNU D compiler, when we want
to support it in Autoconf and Automake.
* The GNU D compiler is called 'gdc'. Therefore, and because a 1-letter
variable 'D' would be really odd, it makes sense to called the program
variable 'DC'.
* Whether the flags variable is then called DFLAGS (for consistency with
CFLAGS) or DCFLAGS (per GCS [2]), can be debated.
I think part of the problem comes from looking at the Go support.
* Go is different than Algol 68 and Modula-2. The reference implementation
('go') and the GNU implementation ('gccgo') are multi-purpose programs.
To compile a program, one uses
$ go build foo.go
or
$ gccgo build foo.go
To compile and run a program, one uses
$ go run foo.go
or
$ gccgo run foo.go
* The AC_PROG_GO macro [6] sets variables GOC and GOFLAGS. Which already
violates the letter of the GCS [2].
Since the AC_PROG_GO macro already violates the letter of the GCS [2] and is
instead following the rule "The compiler options for programming language X
is in variable XFLAGS", it is hard to reach both goals at the same time:
(I) Following the letter of the GCS [2],
(II) Consistency with the existing language support in Autoconf.
I can see two reasonable ways of naming the variables; the current proposal
from Jos=C3=A9 is, unfortunately, not among them:
Proposal A: Define (I) as the more important goal.
GO GOFLAGS
A68 A68FLAGS
M2 M2FLAGS
DC DCFLAGS
This implies changing AC_PROG_GO so that it defines the GO variable, and
deprecating the GOC variable.
Proposal B: Define (II) as the more important goal.
GOC GOFLAGS
A68 or A68C A68FLAGS
M2 M2FLAGS
DC DFLAGS
Here (II) is nearly fulfilled, except that we cannot use M2C as variable,
as explained above. So, goal (II) is not entirely reached. Instead, the
*FLAGS variable depends on the programming language, not on the compiler
command. Goal (I) cannot be reached either, but it's a reasonable comprom=
ise
nevertheless.
Bruno
[1] https://gitweb.git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=3Dautomake.git;a=3Dblob;f=
=3Dt/a68-demo.sh;h=3Da69d2328bbe7d74c65bdfd19be2e49e7b30a038f;hb=3DHEAD#l19
[2] https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Command-Variables.html
[3] https://www.mathematik.uni-ulm.de/modula/man/man1/m2c.html
[4] https://www.nongnu.org/m2c/
[5] https://github.com/m2sf/m2c
[6] https://www.gnu.org/savannah-checkouts/gnu/autoconf/manual/autoconf-2.7=
2/html_node/Go-Compiler.html
Bruno Haible <bruno@HIDDEN>:automake-patches@HIDDEN.
Full text available.automake-patches@HIDDEN:bug#78481; Package automake-patches.
Full text available.
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Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
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